How to Truly Know People & The Science Behind the Human/Dog Bond-SYSK Choice

Today on Something You Should Know, how do you tell if what you're feeling is a cold or the flu coming on? Then, why are people feeling so disconnected and isolated than ever before? It just may be we don't have the skills to connect. Like basic skills had to be a great conversationalist. How to offer an answer for forgiveness. How to break up with someone without breaking their heart. How to end a conversation gracefully. How to sit with someone who's suffering. You gotta learn it. Also, does it really work to put a wet phone in rice to make it work again? Maybe there's something better. And the human canine connection and some of the benefits of having a dog. Dogs are non-judgmental. They're always there for us. People confide in their dogs all the time. They talk to their dogs. They tell dogs secrets that they wouldn't tell other people. But they also, you know, help us practice healthier habits. Call this today on something you should know. Of the Regency Era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place. Or it's the time when Jane Austen wrote her books. The Regency Era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. Vulgar History's new season is all about the Regency Era. The balls, the gowns, and all the scandal. And the Vulgar History Regency Era, wherever you get podcasts. You'll catch colds or they get the flu. And sometimes a cold and the flu have very similar symptoms. So how do you tell which one you've got? Well if it came on super fast, it could be the flu. A cold typically moves in slowly over the course of a few days. Where does it hurt? If the symptoms are mostly from your neck up, in the throat, in the head, in the sinuses, that's probably a cold. The flu will attack from the neck down first, with body aches, a cough, and muscle fatigue. If you're experiencing extreme exhaustion or a high fever, get to the doctor. That's most likely the flu and not something you want to mess around with. There are some antiviral drugs that can help, but you have to start the treatment within 24 to 48 hours. And that is something you should know. How well do you really know somebody? And really how well do other people really know you? When you really know someone, it validates them. It lets them feel heard and understood. And when people don't feel valued and heard and understood, that can result in a whole cascade of problems. So what does it take to really know a person? Here with some fascinating insight into this is David Brooks. He's one of the nation's leading writers and commentators. He's an op-ed columnist for the New York Times, a writer for the Atlantic, and he appears regularly on the PBS NewsHour. He's author of a book called How to Know a Person, The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. Hi David, welcome to something you should know. That was great to be with you. So explain what you mean by the art of seeing other people deeply, because I think generally we like to think we know other people in our lives and that they know us. Well, you know, when we all think we're good at understanding the people around us, but the evidence is pretty clear. We're not as good as we think we are. And so there's a guy at the University of Texas who analyzes and he finds that when people first meet each other in conversation, they understand what's going on in the other person's head about 22% of the time. And with friends and family, it's only 35% of the time. And so what I see in our society is just this terrible breakdown in relationship. And so the number of people who say they're lonely most of the time is 36%. The number of people who say they have no close personal friends has gone up by four times in the last 20 years. The number of people who rate themselves in the lowest happiness category has gone up by 50%. And so we've just got this epidemic of blindness. So where's the disconnect? What's happened in the last 20 years? What's gone south that these numbers are going in the wrong direction? You know, there are a lot of stories I could tell about that. The one would be a technology story, a social media is driving us all crazy. And I think that's partly true. One would be a demography story where we had a lot more inequality. Another would be, I guess, ethnic and racial. We're just more diverse. You know, we evolved to grow up in bands of 150 people, more or less like ourselves. And now we live in these wonderfully diverse societies and our social skills are not adequate. And to me, the big thing is we just don't teach these skills anymore. Like basic skills had to be a great conversationalist, how to offer an answer for forgiveness, how to break up with someone without breaking their heart, how to end a conversation gracefully, how to sit with someone who's suffering. These are skills just like carpentry is a skill or learning to play tennis is a skill. And you got to learn it. A lot of our institutions, schools, families, whatever, somehow they're not teaching these skills. Did they ever? I know I don't ever remember being taught those skills and what class would it have been in? Yeah, I think it was more modeled because we had a lot more conversations with each other. And so I'm not sure it was ever taught so great, but I do think there were institutions like the boys and girls scouts and the boys and girls clubs and churches that just taught basic acts of consideration and how to be a better person. And so, for example, you know, I was watching Ted Lasso and in the first season, he's asked, what's your goals for your soccer team? He's a coach. And he says, my goal is to try to make the men on this team better versions of themselves on and off the field. He was just trying to improve the people around them. And I think there are a lot of institutions that used to do that. Just how do we make each other better as human beings? I don't think we do that as much anymore. We're focused on getting a career and getting financial security and a lot of the more material stuff. And so what does it mean to do that? A person who is good at what you're talking about does what that other people don't? Yeah, I find in any community, in any community, there are some people who are diminishers who make you feel small, they stereotype, they ignore. And then some people who are illuminators, they make you feel lit up and seen, they have a curiosity about people. They ask questions. You know, the most elemental skill is just the skill of conversation. How do you become a really great conversation list? And so I asked a bunch of conversation experts, how do you do that? And they gave me tips like be a loud listener. When somebody's talking to you, you should be listening so actively, you're burning calories. I have a buddy, when you talk to him, it's like you're talking to one of those Pentecostal churches, he's like, uh-huh, uh-huh, yes, yes, I get you. Just love talking to that guy. Another one is don't be a topper. So if you tell me you're having problems with your adolescent daughter, my instinct is to say, oh yeah, I'm having problems with mine. And that sounds like I'm trying to relate to you, but really what it is, is I'm trying to drag the conversation so we talk about me and not about you. And so don't be a topper. Another one is find a gem statement. If you and I are disagreeing about something, there's probably something deep down that we agree on. Like say my brother and I are fighting over our dad's health care. We both want what's best for our dad. And so if we can keep the gem statement, that thing we agree on in the center, then we'll preserve our relationship amid disagreement. So these are just very basic tips, for example, on how to be really great at conversation. I wonder if then part of the problem is that people don't see the need. That that yeah, because those aren't really difficult things to do. But if you don't think you need them, then you don't need them. Yeah, you know, there was a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago. And he was on a commuter train going to work. And he knows as a psychologist, the thing that makes us happy is connecting with other people. That's the thing that makes us happiest. And he looks around the train and nobody's talking to each other. There's on their screens or in their headphones. And so he decides to do an experiment. He takes, he gives people like 50 bucks and says, I'll give you 50 bucks, but talk to somebody else on your ride to work. And so they do. And everybody reports being much happier talking to the stranger on the train. Extroverts and introverts, everybody really enjoys the ride way more than being in their screens. And yet, so we underestimate how much we're going to enjoy talking to other people. We underestimate how quickly people want to go deep. And we were just in a culture where we were overly reticent about making some sort of deep connection. And just one story, you know, kids are great at it. They, they're great at asking questions. I have a friend named Naomi Wei and she was teaching eighth grade boys interviewing skills. And the first exercise she had was, okay, you can ask me any question and I'll answer honestly. And so the first question out of one boy's mouth was, are you married? No. Second question. Another boy, are you divorced? Yes. Third question. Do you still love him? And she suddenly taken aback, really direct question. And she says, yes. And then the next question, does he know? Do your children know? Like kids are just boring in with big questions. And these days I'll go to a party and I'll leave thinking, you know, that whole time nobody asked me a question. And I've come to believe that like 30% of people are question askers. They're just, they're good at asking questions and they fill their conversations with questions. The other 70% are perfectly good people, but they're just not question askers. And so part of the problem here is just your self centeredness. Well, I think too, I mean, because I like to talk to people, but I don't like to talk to people all the time. And I remember many years ago, long before cell phones and people putting on headphones, I would ride the train from Connecticut into New York. And even though there were no electronics, nobody still, nobody ever talked to anybody. Everybody's heads were buried in a newspaper instead of on their screens. But it wasn't the fault of electronics. It was just on the train in the morning, nobody wants to talk to anybody. They just want to be left alone. And so, you know, I get that. Yeah, though, you get that. Yeah, I guess I get that too, believe me. When I was four, my little pre-K teacher apparently told my parents, you know, David doesn't really play with the other kids. He just likes to observe them. And so if you want to talk to me about introversion and not wanting to talk to people all the time, I totally get that. I am not a natural at this. But, you know, it's sometimes, and on the morning, believe me, I don't want to talk to anybody. I'm not a morning person. But sometimes we're thrown together with people and it's just very useful to be able to understand them and to offer them that recognition. So for example, McKinsey did a study, why do people quit firms? And they asked the CEOs of the firms and they said, well, people leave our firm to make more money somewhere else. And then they asked the people who left the firm. And the number one answer was my manager didn't recognize me. They felt unseen at work and not respected enough. And so there was a case where people are thrown together in a workplace and the manager is doing a lousy job of showing the other people, the person that they are seeing, respected and heard. And if you're going to hire someone, you have to know and understand not just what's on their resume, you have to be able to understand whether they're common a crisis, generous to colleagues, a good team player. So you really have to understand people. Well, if you're going to hire people, if you're going to marry someone, you want to know just not just about their looks and their interests. You want to know how the hidden wounds of their childhood show up in their adulthood. You want to know if their deepest desires align with your own. So my point is that seeing others well is not just a nice city on a commuting train. It's an essential part of life. We're talking today about how to really know someone. And my guest is David Brooks. He's author of the book, How to Know a Person, the art of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online, in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. If Bravo drama, pop culture, chaos and honest takes are your love language. You'll want all about TRH podcast in your feed. Hosted by Roxanne and Chantel, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about. Roxanne's been spilling Bravo tea since 2010. And yes, we've interviewed Housewives Royalty like Countess Luanne and Teresa Judice, smart recaps insider energy and zero fluff. Listen to all about TRH podcast on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen. New episodes weekly. So David, if you ask the manager why he doesn't speak up or when you ask people on the train, why they don't talk to each other. My guess is the thinking is that there's nothing really to be gained from this or it's I don't want to intrude. Yeah, I agree. And say on the train that that's a perfectly legitimate reason there where tend to be shy, though, I have to say, even on trains and stuff like that on buses, I'm much more likely since I started writing this book to talk to strangers and I have a zillion stories to tell of people I never would have met. And so I just think that part is fun. But say we're in a family or say we're neighbors. It's just important. You know, I think people may think they understand each other, but they have to understand, have a little humility that we don't understand each other. And, you know, in my job as a journalist, I just see an epidemic of blindness. You know, I interview people and they say, nobody recognized me. Nobody sees me. Fifty four percent of Americans say that no one knows them well. And I find like black people feeling their daily lives are not understood by white people. Rural people in central in the Midwest feeling they're not seen by coastal elites. Husband and wives and broken marriages feeling, you know, no one knows them. The person who should know them best has no clue. Teenagers in depression, thinking of suicide, feeling that no one knows them at all and no one cares. And so this is not just a luxury. This is a breakdown in the basic, that relational fabric of our society. And I think you can have a healthy democracy when your society is rotting at the bottom. And that's what's happening. When I was a kid growing up, you know, everybody in the neighborhood knew everybody. All the kids played together. There were barbecues where everybody would get together. But there was always a couple of families that didn't participate. But but pretty much everybody knew everybody. And it wasn't like it didn't seem like people were like making an effort. It wasn't like hard to do. It just happened. And then I was talking to a friend not long ago and I said, you know, I know somebody who just moved to your neighborhood like right up the street from you. They've been there for about six months. I wonder if you've met them. And she said, I make it a point not to know my neighbors. And I thought, whoa, boy, there's a big 180 right there that everybody used to know everybody. Now people are making it a point not to know anybody. Yeah, I sometimes travel around the country and I'll ask people like I'll say to people, you know, one of the problems is we don't know our neighbors. The eight closest neighbors we have. And I once said that in New Orleans to a group of people and they looked at me with this quizzical expression and they were like, what are you talking about? Of course we know our neighbors. We all know our neighbors. And so in some parts of America, everyone still knows each other and in other parts, nobody does. And so it's a question of changing the norms of how we behave with each other. And so for example, once in Florida, I was with a group and we ran into a lady who was helping kids cross the street after elementary school. And we asked her, do you have time to volunteer in your neighborhood? And she said, nope, I got no time. And we asked her, well, are you getting paid for this? And she says, no, I just helped the kids across the street. We said, well, what do you do in the rest of the day? And she said, well, on Thursdays, I take food to the folks in the hospital. So they left some nice food. And we said, well, do you have time to volunteer in your neighborhood? And she said, no, I have no time. And to her, this wasn't volunteering. This is just what neighbors did. This was like the norm, what neighbors did. Of course, you were going to be active in your community in some way. And I think those norms have shifted. So now now we're inside. And I think partly it's because just social distrust is so much higher now. Yeah, it was 40 years ago. Well, but getting back to even when you know your neighbors, even when you think you know people, it sounds like maybe what you're saying is we don't know people the way we think we know people. Well, that's for sure true. I mean, there are there's bunch of levels of intimacy. Like if you if you go to the store and the person at the Harris Teter, whatever your Safeway, whatever your grocery store is, and you just look at them with a gaze of warmth. That's a little small moment and it may be only a small moment in the day. But to me, it's a meaningful moment that whenever we meet somebody in any occasion, even it's just like over a cash register or grocery store, we're asking each other unconsciously questions. Am I a person to you? Am I a priority to you? Do you have some respect for me? And the answers to those questions get communicated in your eyes and with your gaze before they get communicated with your words. And so, you know, I think even in those little moments, we can make a difference in people's lives, even if it's just minus you. It's easy to discount that, though, and say, you know, that's what does that do? That doesn't do anything. I mean, it's very momentary, fleeting gone. So what? Yeah, no, but I don't think that's true. I think if you I certainly if somebody is rude to me in a store, I feel it. It leaves a mark. The world seems a little unfriendly. And if somebody is warm to you in a store or just even listens to you on the bus, you think, wow, that guy was a pretty good listener and it paves the way for what can come next. And so one of the things, as I mentioned before, that's just so important to getting to know people really well is being really good at asking questions. And once you've established trust with somebody, once you your friends with somebody, you can ask them big questions like what crossroads you at? Like everyone's in the middle of a transition, like what transition you at right now? Or if the next five years is a chapter in your life, what's this chapter about? And these are questions that lift people above their normal course of life, just being stuck in the day to day. And they think see themselves from 30,000 feet and they get to know each other just a lot better. I had a dinner party at my house and I asked a big question, which was, how do your ancestors show up in your life? Like, tell me about your ethnic background. Tell me about your grandparents. And we had a great conversation because everybody had a little different kind of backgrounds. Some couple was Dutch and another couple was African American. And so we all went back into how the different heritage has influenced our lives. And that was such a memorable conversation that I'll remember. And I hope they will. And we've been way better than if we just talked, you know, the normal subjects of whatever sports, politics, the weather. People who report that they're disconnected, that they're lonely. One of the things that that's sometimes hard to understand about that is then why don't you go try to fix that? Why don't you? Why do you stay in that? There are plenty of people around to groups, things. There's plenty of advice on how to connect with people if you're feeling lonely. And yet people often don't do it and you wonder why they don't do it. Yeah. Well, one of the things loneliness does is it warps your perception of the world. So you see the world as more dangerous. And therefore, you become suspicious of the very thing you hunger for most, which is human connection. And that's part of it. But I think there are a lot of reasons. The little piece that I try to bite off in my book is the skills part. Like you got to be open-hearted. You got to be generous. You got to feel some level of trust. You have to feel some level of safety to get into a conversation where you really are going to get to know somebody. But you also just need these basic skills. And so that I'm focusing on the skills piece that just to give people the ability to like, how do you approach a stranger? What do you say? How do you know how quickly or how slowly to unveil some vulnerability about yourself? These are these are just skills. So how do you approach a stranger? What do you say? Well, some, you know, I for work, I travel a lot for doing reporting. So I often ask where'd you grow up? And I find people love to talk about their homes. And sometimes if I learn their name, I'll say, where did you get your name? And then people start talking about their family and what they were thinking about or maybe their ethnic heritage that gave them their name. And then childhood, people are really real when they're talking about happy moments in their childhoods. And then what I'm trying to make every storytelling conversation, I mean, every conversation is storytelling conversation. So we're not just making statements, but we're telling stories and we're going deeper into our past. I, you know, I had one conversation with like three or four people and I said, what's the most the most fun, unimportant thing about you? And I learned from this very austere academic that he loves trashy reality TV show. And he said, that's really unimportant, but that's part of me. That's fun. And I started talking about my absurd devotion to people like Taylor Swift and the pop song lyrics that are designed for 16 year olds. So basically that's where my musical taste is at. And that's unimportant, I guess, but it was sort of fun to have that conversation. We did a lot of laughing. And so these are just on true ways into other people's lives. And then the final thing I learned is find what they're proud of. If they're wearing a t-shirt from their kids athletic team, ask about the t-shirt. Ask about the kids team. People love to talk about what they're proud about. And so it seems to me we just, it just is beneficial to get really good. At offering people recognition, really good at understanding the people around you. And really good at showing you, you have this skill that you make them feel lit up and illuminated. And that's the essence of being a human being. I think it's its own reward. Well, I really appreciate this conversation. It makes you think about, especially around the holidays, it makes you think about the people in your life and the people you meet and how important all these people are and everyone has a story. I've been speaking with David Brooks. He is an op ed columnist for the New York Times, a writer for the Atlantic. And he's author of a book called How to Know a Person, the art of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Great to have you on, David. Thanks for being here. Thanks, Mike. It's been a total pleasure to be with you. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from the longest shortest time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longas shortest time.com. People and dogs have lived together for a very long time. And it seems to be a pretty good match. Dogs and people bond well. People often say that having a dog makes their life better. But since dogs don't actually talk, it's hard to know what they're thinking or how best to treat them, how to really connect with a dog or what kind of dog to get or not get. Well, one person who understands dogs better than most is Jen Goldbeck. Her writing has appeared in Slate, The Atlantic, Psychology Today, and she and her husband rescue Golden Retrievers who are seniors or have special medical needs. And she is author of a book called The Purist Bond, Understanding the Human Canine Connection. Hi, Jen. Welcome. Thanks for coming on something you should know. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks so much for having me. So do we know how long it's been since dogs and people have been getting together and why does it work so well and where and when did it start? We've been living with dogs as companion animals for centuries, thousands of years. And it's a real question of when they became part of our lives that they are now. But even in ancient Rome, there's evidence of people having pet cemeteries where they buried their dogs with kind of the same honors that they would give to people. So it's been quite a long time, though, obviously, it's been an evolving relationship. And now dogs play really a family member role for most of us, the vast majority of Americans who have dogs say that they're like members of the family. And in this kind of co-evolution that we've had of growing as species to learn to rely on one another has had a really profound way of transforming dogs and how they interact with us and vice versa. And so what we see if we look at the research about people's bonds with their dogs is that whether it's our physical health, like our cardiovascular health, recovering from diseases to obviously our mental and emotional health, to the way we connect with other people, dogs make that better. And one of the themes that really emerged as we were doing the work is that a lot of that benefit, not all of it, but a lot of it is because dogs provide this social support to us the same way that people do. So in the psychology literature, we know that if you have a good, strong social network, you've got a lot of close friends, your family is close, like you're really just surrounded by positive social interactions, all parts of your life benefit from that. And the research really shows that dogs are able to step in and provide some of that social support for us. And in fact, the more isolated we might be, the more dogs help. So they are kind of like better versions of humans that allow us to reap all of those benefits that we know having a social support system gives us. It does seem to me that today and over the last, I don't know, 10, 20 years, that people are more into their dogs than perhaps in the past. And we hear that the doggy toy, doggy stuff marketplace is exploding, that people buy all kinds of things for their dog, that they treat them more like a member of the family than in the past. Is that a fair assessment or no? Definitely. The statistics bear that out. They have grown more to be members of the family over the years. And is that a good thing? Because a dog is a dog. And so to treat them like a human, is that a good thing? It's a good question. You know, there are risks that come from anthropomorphizing dogs and treating them like they're humans because they do really see and interact with the world in a different way. Their emotional capabilities are different than humans are. But if we get down into the relationship, so one of my favorite studies that we found when we were doing the research for this book is that we know, for example, infants and mothers form things called attachment bonds. And these are bonds that will form in all of our important close relationships for the rest of our lives, but they start generally with infants bonding with their mothers. And it's really profound. It impacts everything and it's necessary for our close relationships. And so they've done studies with infants where they'll put them in fMRI machines. These are the things that make the pictures that show which parts of your brain light up. And they'll let them see their mothers. And when they see them, a certain part of their brain lights up. So we know that part of the brain is connected to these really important bonds that are there essentially in our most loving relationships. So scientists did the same study with dogs. They trained dogs to lie still in an fMRI, which is impressive on its own. And then they would have the dog's owners come up so the dogs could see them and smell them. And the same part of dogs' brains lit up as lit up in infants when they saw their mothers. And what this tells us is that on a deep neurological level, dogs are feeling love for us the same way that infants do to their mothers. And there's, of course, a plethora of studies that show we also form these attachment bonds back to our dogs. They make us feel safe. They're secure. We rely on them. We confide in them. And so it's not just us as humans treating dogs more like people or members of the family. On a biological level, we both, dogs and humans, respond to each other in ways that are very similar to how family members do. So I think it's been a really positive evolution, like starting to recognize the importance and the depth that that relationship can have. But there are people who are just not dog people. You know, they just couldn't care less or they don't like dogs or whatever. And, you know, I mean, to each his own, I guess. But does that bother you that like, how can you not like dogs? I mean, I certainly learned in my dating life to never date people who aren't into dogs. I tried that once and it was a disaster. So there is a world outlook that should be shared there. But, you know, I think it's OK. Like you can not be a dog person and, you know, it's not for everyone. But if it is something that you're interested in, you think you have the time, the patience and you want to put together this kind of family relationship with another being, there's really profound benefits that you can get from having that really deep connection. Well, people, and myself included, have heard that having a dog has benefits. It makes you healthier. And I'm not sure I necessarily understand the connection. I mean, yes, if you're walking your dog, you're out walking more. But, you know, but it's got to be more than that. So what are the benefits, the health benefits of having a dog? Yeah. So some of it certainly is they get us outside more. They get us walking more. An interesting little tidbit from from the research that we did is that people who have dogs walk more, even when they're not walking with their dogs. So like, of course, you got to go walk your dog. That's going to get you more steps. But if you remove the dog walks, they still walk more. And the reason we think that happens is because walking is actually like a pretty pleasant activity and being outside is really good for us. And the dog kind of gets us started with that, but actually may make us want to do it more anyway, which is a kind of interesting tidbit. But aside from that, you know, whether we're looking at emotional health, mental health or physical health and social connections, we see pretty consistent benefits from dogs. Some of that, like I mentioned earlier, is because they do provide this kind of social support, which we know helps in everything from recovery, from cancer or heart attacks, obviously, to all kinds of mental health issues. Dogs are non-judgmental. They're always there for us. People confide in their dogs all the time. They talk to their dogs. They tell dogs secrets that they wouldn't tell other people. So that's a really important part of it. But they also, you know, help us practice healthier habits. So, for example, if you go to the vet and the vet says your dog's a little overweight, you need to put them on a diet that tends to make us also respond, eating better, because we're kind of focused on, OK, this is a thing we have to do to take care of this creature that we love so much. So we're also kind of pick up on some of that in our own lives. And they're just kind of a joy to be around and being happier makes you healthier. So, you know, the science, of course, gets like very complicated and deep on all of this. But essentially, it comes down to like having these really positive forces who want you to do all sorts of things that are healthy for you anyway, tend to make you feel better. What do you say to people who like think because not all dogs are the same. So, you know, you might get along great with this dog, but this dog is not your kind of dog. People, you know, choose dogs for all kinds of reasons. But I don't know if those are good reasons or or how do you decide what kind of dog to get? It's so important. You know, I rescue golden retrievers and a lot of dogs that we see come into the rescue group are dogs often who come in in September. And that's because they were bought as puppies as Christmas presents, because there is nothing cuter than a golden retriever puppy, I think. And so they'll come home, they get a little bow on their head, they're in a box under the tree. They weigh 12 pounds and they're great. And then, you know, it's sometimes said of golden retrievers that they're that cute little puppy up to three months and then they turn into a velociraptor from about three months until three years old. They just chomp on everything. They get big. They're crazy. Their energy is wild. And in families that bought it because it's a cute puppy and like they like the idea of a golden retriever, say, and that aren't prepared to walk that dog and run the dog and play fetch with the dog and burn that energy. Off and really train them. What they end up with after six months is a big dog who's totally out of control, who's not getting exercised enough, who they don't have time for, that's maybe knocking their kids over. And then they'll start creating the dog so that dog really doesn't get the energy out. And then when it comes out of the crate, it's just a monster in the house. All of that's a thing that can be avoided if you pick a dog who has the energy level that needs the kind of training that you're prepared to give her that can be handled. Right. You can pick up a little dog. You can't pick up a golden. And so if somebody's picking a dog, you really need to think about, you know, what kind of facilities do you have to take them out? Do you have a yard that they can play in? Do you have a park that you can walk them to? Do you want to be doing that two or three times a day? If you're in an apartment, do you have the money for a dog walker? Do you want a couch potato? Do you want someone to run with? Thinking about what is your life going to look like with these dogs? And I think a lot of times people fail at owning dogs, either fail themselves or fail the dogs or both is because they've picked based on this dog looks cool or, you know, there's some cultural attitude that comes along with it that doesn't really match up with their lifestyle. Talk about dogs and being overweight because I hear that there are a lot more dogs today than ever before who are overweight. Yeah, it's so easy to give them snacks. And of course, they love it. And this is an interesting problem that we see, for example, in the dogs that we rescue when they come in is that some of them will be emaciated, right? They haven't been fed. But a lot of them also come in profoundly overweight. We took in a dog who was who's lost almost 50 pounds since we've had him, and he's still a big boy. But he was kind of neglected in all ways and then fed table scraps to kind of get him to leave them alone. So, you know, whether it's through love or neglect, it's not at all uncommon for dogs to be overweight and some interesting work that we found in doing the research for the book. One is that dog weight will often mimic their human's weight. So if a human is getting overweight or is gaining weight, their dog will tend to gain weight with them. And you can imagine like the dogs sitting there watching us eat, right? They're getting little bits often of what we're having. Or, you know, if we feel like, oh, gosh, like I'm so hungry right now and the dog also looks hungry, which I don't know, my dogs look hungry all the time. I want to have a snack. Maybe I'll give the dog a snack, too. So it's not super surprising that their weight tends to mirror ours. There's also some really interesting research that's been done that if you need either the human or the dog or both to lose weight, we tend to do better if we do it together. So there was a great study that had people put on a weight loss plan who also had overweight dogs and then the dogs were sometimes put on a weight loss weight loss plan or you put them on a plan together. And the people who went on weight loss plans with their dog lost more weight than people who were just given a plan by themselves or people whose dogs were given a plan. So you kind of get like a fluffy, enthusiastic teammate to go along with you. And it's just a really interesting connection, right? About how our own weight and our dog's weight is tied together and all of the implications that come with that. I imagine there's been some research into there is I've had this experience of having a dog and then getting another one. And everything changes, the dynamics change and then got a third dog and everything changed again, that there's something about adding other dogs or even other cats or whatever that changes the what goes on in the house. It's I can't really describe it, but you know what I mean. I always tell people, you know, I have five dogs, which is a lot. So we've had as many as seven. But I always tell people like two dogs is way easier than one dog because two dogs will entertain each other. And so you don't have to be the one doing all of the entertaining. Once you get above four, you know, then we have more dogs than hands in the house. And so things things get complicated in different ways. But yeah, they have really complicated social interactions with each other. Interestingly, not the way that a lot of people think. I think for a very long time, we were sort of fed this line about, you know, there's an alpha. People still ask me, who's the alpha dog in your house? You know, that there's this strict ranking. Most of that work has been debunked. It's just not naturally how dogs live in a house or with each other. The original research on that was in like very contrived, kind of forced situations where where dogs were kind of compensating for a very stressful, kind of abusive life by setting up this hierarchy in a house. Dogs live as family members. So, you know, some may be more dominant and some more submissive, but they don't really have that hierarchy. And the same goes with people. We tend to live as, you know, as human family members do. And so that means they have all kinds of interactions with each other. And hopefully they're good. They aren't always, you know, we've had dogs who hate each other and like have to be separated and that's not any fun. But yeah, they all have their their own dynamics. And so anytime you introduce a new one or, you know, we're dog dog only household, but certainly other pets, sometimes that brings stress. Sometimes it brings great joy and happiness in a new playmate, but it definitely shifts the dynamics. And for us, you know, when we're deciding which of these dogs we foster, maybe you're going to stay permanently and which ones do we adopt out? Almost the entire decision comes down to how well did they fit in with our current squad of dogs? Do they all get along? Is everybody able to be mellow or would they maybe be happier someplace either with different dogs, fewer dogs, maybe is the only one? Are all dogs trainable? Because I know you have come across people that have dogs that like, oh, we've tried and she's just so stupid that she just did. She won't do anything. She won't stop barking. She won't chase the ball. She what do you say? So I think all dogs are trainable to a certain degree. I don't think there's any dog that can't learn some really basic manners. We kind of train to like the lowest necessary level in the house to like be able to function so our dogs can all like basically come when they're called and sit. I have I have yet to teach them teach them to shut up when I tell them to because they do bark more than I like. But you can teach them to disrupt their attention, right? If they're barking at something, you should be able to call them away from that. I've had stubborn dogs who barely will do what we ask them to do. And I love them for that. You know, they have different personalities. You know, some are certainly smarter than others. Some really want to please more than others and some just want to do their own thing and they don't care what you say. I've never run into a dog that couldn't be trained at all. And in working with some professional trainers, which we've had to do for some of these really crazy dogs, you know, what I've learned is that a lot of the training that has to happen in those difficult cases is training the humans to be better because, you know, you either don't want to yell at the dog, you get angry, which is really ineffective. If you, you know, just like yell at them and be angry, that's often not going to do anything. But that doesn't mean you can't stop them from doing something that's destructive or bad. So teaching people, hey, when your dog starts doing this bad behavior, say they jump up on you when you come in the door, you have to respond in a different way than you have. That often is the only thing that you need to do to then get the dog to respond properly because they have psychology like us, right? So if you take away the reward that they're looking for, they're really quickly going to figure out that they'll only get it if they do things the right way. That doesn't mean you're going to have, you know, a dog show level trained dog, but you can get them to at least do the basics if you put the work in. Where do you come down on the issue of purebred versus pound mutt? So I like all dogs. I have been called a breedist because we tend to just take in golden retrievers, you know, that's because I love their personality. I grew up with them. I like that they're, you know, big and goofy and run around and like to do all the kinds of things I do. I think we have a good personality match. That said, man, do we suffer for it. Golden retrievers are really prone to cancer. They don't live long lives. They have lots of orthopedic issues and we are constantly dealing that. You know, we take in old and sick dogs, but I think we've lost 10 in the last three or four years, all of them to cancer, I think. So there's a lot of drawbacks where if you get, you know, a mixed breed, a Heinz 57, right, a super mutt, they don't come with the same kinds of problems because they are more genetically diverse. And so you can have a dog that actually will be healthier and live longer if they're a mixed breed. And so, you know, I think that's great. That said, you know, I still still love the golden fluffy phases and I'm kind of committed to them and all the problems that come with it. Yeah. Well, that's it's certainly it's certainly a thing that people feel seems to feel pretty strong about one way or the other that that they either they're going to go get a dog from the pound or they're going to get a pure bread and they there's not a lot of debate, it seems. But I've always had mutts and have done pretty well, except my current dog is kind of stupid and she really just not that bright, but she does her best. But man, oh man. But that brings up the the issue, though, of, you know, one of the worst parts, probably the worst part of having a dog if you're a dog person is when they die and and they're going to die before you are most likely. And what, what do you say to that? Yeah. I mean, it it's so hard and I guess a couple things to add in here. One is that when you do lose them, you know, you're right, it's the it's the worst thing. And psychologists refer to the way that we grieve dogs or one of the descriptors is that it's disenfranchised grief, which is a formal term. And it just means society doesn't give you room to mourn the way that you emotionally feel like you need to. We see it in humans. If you have a loved one who died of like a drug overdose or suicide where society acts like they kind of brought that on themselves. And so you shouldn't mourn them in the same way. We also experience that with dogs where society doesn't give us room. We don't have the rituals around grieving, but we know from the research that the average grieving process for a dog is six to 12 months, that we feel that loss as much as we feel the loss of the closest family members in our lives. It's a very profound loss. And, you know, I know with some of my dogs for months after they've died, I just be walking down the street and start crying like no, no provocation. It would just start. You shouldn't feel ashamed because society will kind of make you feel that way. You should embrace that. And I have really started to treat the pain of that grief, which is really intense as something that I am grateful for, even though it's not at all fun to go through. It really reflects how important that relationship with the dog was. And, you know, if I didn't feel such intense pain, like it would almost be dishonoring the relationship that we have. And so I try to take it with gratitude, even though it's still really hard. Well, I'm a dog person. Well, I'm an animal person. I mean, I just, I like pets. And so it's always fun to hear somebody who knows a lot more than I do about it, how the whole relationship works and why it's so rewarding and appealing. I've been talking with Jen Goldbeck. She's author of a book called The Purist Bond, Understanding the Human Canine Connection. There's a link to that book in the show notes. This was great. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on, Jen. It was so fun. Thank you. I'm sure you've probably heard that recommendation that if your phone or some other electronic device gets wet, you should stick it in rice. And there's some debate about whether you really should do that or not. Or maybe that's not such a good idea. I, but why not? Why not? But there is another food that might even work better. Brent Rose from Gizmodo says that rice crispies are better. They suck up liquid faster and more aggressively than uncooked rice. He suggests you grab a fresh box, jam your phone in there and leave it for 48 hours, rotate the device inside the box every now and again, but resist the urge to test it or turn it on. Brent says after 48 hours or so, remove your phone from the rice crispies. And if you see any signs of moisture still in there like fog on the screen, put it back in there one more time. If it looks bone dry, put the battery pack in and hopefully it'll turn on. And that is something you should know. You know, here's a little peek behind the curtain of the podcasting business. In the last month or so there has been, and no one can explain it, but there's been like a downturn in podcast listening just overall across the board. Everyone is busy or something. So help us turn that around. We have a back catalog of episodes, hundreds of episodes of this podcast. I know you would find interesting. They are still relevant, evergreen episodes. Spend some time around the holidays and listen to some of the back catalog. I think you'll really enjoy it and it would help us. I'm Mike Herothers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from the longest shortest time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health. And we're covering it all. Birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy, menopause, consent, sperm. So many stories about sperm. And of course, the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages. If you're new to the show, check out an episode called The Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids schooled to teach sex ed. Spoiler, I get it to happen, but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talked to plenty of non parents, so you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest, shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longashorstestime.com.