Remedy for a Haunting | 10

A warning to our listeners. This series contains discussion of mental illness, suicide, and domestic abuse. Lisa got adopted, and then I can't remember the boy's name, but he got adopted soon after as well. There was also a son. There was also a son. Adoption records are pretty tricky to get a hold of, especially in the UK. There's an adoption registry in the UK. if we put Lisa on that registry as an adopted child, then if he's on there too, they might be able to connect to them. Y'all, I just got an email from Lisa. Oh, what did it say? Oh my God. Okay, it's actually just a forward from the adoption registry office. And it just says, Dear Miss Mead, I can confirm that a link has been made with Clifford Perkins, who registered a wish for contact. We have sent an inquiry letter to Clifford to the address he supplied in 2017 to see if it is still current. If we receive a reply, we will inform you immediately. I really don't believe she killed herself. She was there one day, and then all of a sudden she didn't show up. Have we uncovered a conspiracy indirectly? Too many unanswered questions. She was scared and died. She was alive after they said she was dead. All right. We've been working on this for quite a while, and it's been a minute since we've done a bullet point check-in of what we actually know. So I'm thinking what we should do today is lay out the facts we have and see what else we can clarify at this point. Okay, so here's what we know. Susan Pat Perkins was born in Salisbury on September 13th, 1952. At some point, her family moved to Kirby Lasokin. Her parents split up, and when she was 11, her brother Stuart was born. Fast forward to 1970, we now know that just after her 18th birthday, she gave birth to a son named Clifford. She then married Kevin at 19 years old, had Lisa at 20, and not long after, she and Kevin split up, and Lisa was adopted by Kevin's sister and brother-in-law. A few years later, she met Notchuk, who was in the American military at an off-base party. They dated and lived together for about a year, and when his service was up, he asked her to come back to the States with him. They moved to upstate New York and got married in 1976, but they broke up not too long after that, and she lived and worked in New York State for the next few years. And this is where it gets a bit fuzzy. Why did you come to Athens, of all places? People don't just show up to East Texas. Kogan was a truck driver. Sue said she met him up in New York at a truck stop and he gave her a ride and she came all the way to Texas with him. Okay, get this. someone with a family connection to Larry Kogan heard his name on this podcast and reached out to say that they remember Larry having a British wife named Susan, who was a heavy smoker, and that they think he met her in New York and brought her back to Athens while he was working as a truck driver, which seems to fit with Tony's memory. So I don't know if we want to call this mystery solved necessarily, but it is always interesting when we hear the same thing twice. And I did check with Tony about the timeline of it all, and he said 1979 was more of a guesstimate. It definitely could have been as late as 1982. From there, she lived in Athens for the rest of her life. And there are some details we haven't been able to nail down, like that hospital job. But the big swings during her time in Athens are that she married Larry Kogan and then Steve Knight. She dated Steve DeVillier, Tony McConnell, and Dale Jolliffe. In 1984, she moved into the house she lived in for the rest of her life. She worked at the Elder Car Dealership from about 1985 to 1994. And she worked at the McIlwray Car Dealership from about 1995 until April of 96, when she passed away at the age of 43. And then, of course, there are all the things that Sue apparently told people that don't quite line up. One of the things she told me was she worked in New York City. And she said, Pat, I left at noon one day and never went back. and nobody there ever knew what happened to her. First of all, we know that she lived in upstate New York, not New York City. And she might have left New York very quickly, but we know she kept in touch with Notchuk after she left. So she didn't completely disappear. She told me she got relocated to the United States because the family that she was married to was part of royalty. So the two husbands that Sue could have been referring to here are Lisa's dad or not Chuck. And neither of them have any royal connections that they know of. There's also the story that she told one of her friends about how she had to leave the UK because she witnessed her stepfather kill her mother. Yeah, but we know for a fact that her mother died of cancer, and that was years after Sue moved to the US. And I actually asked Stuart about this recently too. No, Harry was the most caring man ever. My stepdad didn't murder my mom. There's also the witness protection theory. She told me they deported me to the United States and gave me a witness relocation program. Which our former U.S. marshal pretty much debunked. There's still the possibility that she was using the term as shorthand for a sort of self-imposed witness protection, but that's something we couldn't know for sure unless she told us herself. And it's still not clear what exactly she would have been running from. There's enough of these kinds of stories that we have third-hand, you say, you're on her, do we believe that Sue actually did make up these melodramatic things about herself? Or do we think other people made them up and put them in her mouth? I do actually think they came from Sue. I guess it's possible she might have been kidding. But honestly, everyone who told us one of these stories was really close to her. And they said that she told them in earnest. Like they did not get the idea that she was kidding or lying in any way. There's also the IRA theory. When I last spoke to Stuart, her brother, he did clarify where this idea of their dad living in Northern Ireland came from. I'm going to say that came from my mom. She said that he was in Northern Ireland. He lived in Belfast, or he was there for a time. But again, this is one of the only threads we have to connect Sue to the IRA, and it's pretty tenuous. Right. Plus, we've also recently spoken with some people who knew her dad, and they told us that he settled down again and lived with his family in England for the rest of his life. So to me, that suggests he wasn't running from anything. Agreed. Plus, we have no evidence that Sue was ever in contact with him after he moved away. The other thread in this theory is the steak knife connection. But really, the only link there is the notebook Steve says he found where Sue wrote steak knife on the back. So I don't know that we can 100% rule this one out, but at this point, it feels pretty unlikely. There are all the little things that we have been able to shed some light on. For example, the specialized guns that Sue had, she used them for competition shooting. Dr. Barnhart, the medical examiner we spoke to, was able to explain the discrepancies around the timeline of her death. With the computers, whether or not the lights dimmed or came on or not, a power surge still feels like one of the only ways the computers could have come on by themselves. And the data could have been lost because of a crash instead of a wipe. The teddy bears that were strewn around her house were something that she did as a hobby, either to sell or to give away to her friends. All of the names we have on her paperwork or have heard about being on her IDs can all be tied back to a marriage or a divorce. And we've only found one social security number that she used on paperwork from the time she entered the country to her death. And there are some things that we haven't been able to fully explain, like what color her hair was. Can I just say, as someone with dirty blonde hair, I think all of the colors we've heard people use to describe Sue's hair, I have also heard people use to describe my hair. So I think this might just be a perception thing. I agree. It really feels like a perception thing to me, too. Sort of like how some people said she looked plain. Others said she was really beautiful. Some said she was really cold and rough around the edges. Others said she was super generous and friendly. So I think it all reflects back on each person's perspective. Yeah, the pictures we have of her sort of support that, too. She looks blonde, brunette, even a little redheaded, depending on the lighting. Plus, I found a line item for a hair appointment in her ledger that says blonde next to it, so it could have just been a timing thing. There's also the question of the pills Steve says he found in Sue's house. Yeah. So we know a good many pill bottles were confiscated from her home, some of which had pills left and some of which were empty. When we ask Steve about the bottles he found in her house, he varies on whether they were empty or not. But regardless, I'm still not sure why the authorities would have left some bottles and taken others. I did actually learn something new about this. Not all items are taken from the scene of death. And there are other ways of documenting evidence. like photographs or reports, which in this case may have been lost to time if they ever existed. Typically, items taken from the scene should be potential evidence related to the death or items that could be illegally distributed if they fell into the wrong hands. But the pills weren't the only things that were supposedly confiscated. Steve also told us the police took the guns and a box of sexual paraphernalia, but we don't have any records to verify that. We know the police took some items from Sue's house, we just don't know what. The guns make sense to confiscate as an attempt to secure the house, But I can't think of a reason they'd take personal items. Texas has some quote-unquote obscenity statutes, which may or may not have been relevant in this case. But regardless, since the Athens PD declined to be interviewed, we can't verify anything about this, really. And then there's the whiskey on the nightstand and the wine glass with lipstick in the computer room. In my mind, I can see a picture of her bedroom with the pill bottle and a bottle of whiskey on her nightstand. I never knew I'd drink wine and she didn't wear lipstick there was a glass with a little bit of wine and lipstick on it I just don't think we'll ever know about the whiskey for sure without any scene photos same with the wine glass that's a detail that only exists in Steve Devillier's memory and there's no way to prove or disprove it I do think if there was alcohol there that's at the very least a big shift in behavior on Sue's part since I think it's a pretty reliable piece of information that she didn't drink very much since so many people have told us that. But I don't have a good explanation for this, unfortunately. I will say Steve Devillier said that he found it suspicious because she didn't drink wine and she didn't wear lipstick. But we have heard differently from others. She drank very little. Every once in a while, she'd have a glass of wine. I seem to recall her wearing a lot of makeup. That could be wrong. So there is a world in which she just decided to put on makeup and have a glass of wine. Although again, there was no alcohol present in her autopsy. Last thing in this vein, I personally still can't get over the phone calls. The CIA phone calls to Steve and Sue's ex-boyfriend Mike, and even more so the phone call that Sue's co-worker received after Sue died. After speaking to our experts, I do agree that it wasn't a CIA officer calling. but I still can't explain who it was or why. Same with the supposed call from Sue. I believe she truly was dead by that point but I just don't understand what that call really was. Yeah, the phone calls are weird. The CIA phone call that her ex-boyfriend Mike Buckley supposedly received after her death, we just haven't been able to get in touch with him to verify that it actually happened. As far as the call that Sue's coworker received, the this is Sue, I'm okay call, Pat is the one who told us about it, but he heard about it secondhand. And the person who actually received the call doesn't remember that call happening. We did check with Pat about this, and he said he wasn't surprised because the call meant more to him than it did to the person who received it. They just kind of thought it was a spam call. And Pat says it doesn't change anything for him. He still has a clear memory of this happening It seems like the other thing we know about her is that she is intriguing to people And I suppose maybe just because she's speaking with a British accent in a small town in Texas, but I suspect it's a little bit more than that. There's something about her that made this impression on people and have them talking about her decades after she's gone. It doesn't happen to a lot of people. Yeah. And honestly, a lot of people, like, uh, it's not just one or two here and there it's, we've talked to a lot of people and they've all remembered her and had something to say and had questions and wondered about her and thought about her and missed her, which feels pretty important and kind of extraordinary, especially for someone who basically restarted their life halfway through and again a few years later. And it's so hard to sort of lay out the facts because they don't feel, honestly, they just don't feel as important to me as some of the impressions that we've gotten over time. Do you know? I guess one of the questions I have, if we're saying that sort of a life is not measured necessarily by the facts or that's not the best determination for who someone was, was the facts of their life. I guess I'm wondering, does the idea of Sue being a super spy assassin feel truer to who Sue was than the things that we've learned, do you think? I really go back and forth. I really go back and forth on who I think she actually, like what I think the actual story is. It's hard for me to believe that she was some sort of super spy or assassin, but it's also really hard to completely let go of. I think it's like the tiniest sliver of possibility. So I don't think it's fair to be like, but maybe, do you know what I mean? That feels a little too extreme. My personal feelings today on this day is that she was just a person who spent a good portion of her life trying to figure out what she wanted that life to look like. I think she was a smart, capable woman who wanted to forge her own path and succeeded for a long time. And then maybe that path ended unexpectedly, or maybe it got too hard for her to keep going. and the thing that I keep thinking about is again something that Tony said which is I think she was looking for something and I'm not sure that she ever found it but I hope she at least enjoyed some moments and that feels really true that feels really true to me so yeah I do think that she was I kind of don't want to say that she that I think that she was just a regular person because I do think there was something really extraordinary about her and I think that's something that she cultivated right she wanted people to think of her that way which is which just makes me love her but I do think that she was a person in the world not involved in something large and massive and scary and clandestine and she loved people and was loved by people and died tragically. In terms of what feels more like Sue, it might actually be more appropriate to continue to think of her as a potential super spy. Like that seems closer to maybe what she wanted. That's just, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about that, but that's just, it came into my head that like maybe she would want us to think of her as Carmen Sandiego, woman on the run. I do think she'd get a kick out of that for sure. I think too, thinking about who she was, every single time we've talked to a person, they've had a clear image of who she was and what she was like. Sometimes they're the same, sometimes they're vastly different, but it almost feels a little bit like Sue's this prism. And depending on how the light shines, you get a different color, you get a different shape, you get a different perspective. And we all have many versions of ourself, of course, but I do think that was a part of her is that she wanted different people to see her in a different way and wanted different people to know different parts of herself. Yeah. And Tony actually talked about that, right? He said that she was the kind of person who could throw on a t-shirt and cutoffs and go on a drive on a motorcycle with you, or she could put on a suit and go to a business meeting the next morning. She could sort of fit in wherever she needed to fit in. Jenna, when I heard you say what Sue would have wanted, that's the first time I actually crossed that mental threshold in this story. You know, like we've been looking at what all these other people want Sue to be. But if we had to say, okay, Sue, sitting here in this chair, how do you want us to think of you? I think that's a lot less clear. You know, if we have to go just to her own words, right? And just what we know directly from her. That's pretty slim pickings, right? We have some of her poems and we have the note that she wrote. And that's, I mean, that's pretty much it. That's such an upsetting thing to consider when you realize that the only things we really have in her own words are writings about how sad she was and how hard her life was. like that's really, that's really hard to stomach. See, this all to me just leads me back to the thing that's most important. If we don't really have any of her own words or we have very little and we can't be sure of all the facts, then I think, I think it all comes down to how people felt about her. Whether she was a super spy or not, people loved her. Whether she was a member of the IRA or not, she left an impression. Like that to me, I just keep sort of coming back to, I don't think that it's fair to her to try and narrow down her life to the things we have records for and the tangible facts that we have. And even the things that we have in her own words, like, because what else is there when you're gone besides the memories that all the people in your life have, the impressions that you left. Like, that's it. That's it to me. During this process, a lot of it has been calling people that, you know, we hope have some connection to Sue. And so there was a period of time where I was just calling everybody in Sue's address book, just hoping that, you know, we would hit somebody that knew her. And I ended up calling this woman who ended up being essentially Sue's best friend or one of her best friends. And I basically said, hi, you know, I'm Haley and I'm looking into the life of this woman named Sue Knight. Do you happen to know her? And she just responded with like immediate tears and just was like, oh my God, Sue, I haven't heard that name in so long. And, you know, was just really, really emotional and just talked about how much she loved her friend and missed her friend and how, you know, nobody had talked about her friend for such a long time. And I didn't know it at the time, but at the end of our call, you know, she was like, I'd love to talk to you all. I'm in the hospital. And, you know, this was during COVID and she was like, yeah, I'm in the hospital right now. later when I followed up with her, she had passed away. And so, you know, that call was sort of on her deathbed that she just really missed her friend and wanted to talk about her friend. And I think that's just so significant about what happens when the people we love die. You know, at some point they just kind of, you don't get to talk about them anymore. And yeah, I don't know. yeah and that seems to be true for just about everyone all of these people were just living with this on their own and um what a hard thing to lose someone so unexpectedly and not be able to not be able to process it that's so hard and i'm i'm really glad that some of them have been able to reach out to each other like that that feels important Oh, I think there's a huge value in having people come together, talk about what happened, and share their thoughts and feelings. I think that can make a big difference in how people end up feeling. My name is Yvette Chaline. I'm a professor of psychiatry, radiology, and neurology at University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. I've been studying depression for my entire career. Could you talk about some of the risk factors for depression? In the broadest context, stress from whatever source is a huge risk factor. And if you study epidemiologically when people get depression, it's at least half the time it's preceded by a significant stressor in their life. something has gone wrong in a relationship or with employment or with their family, some other source of stress. She died right before a lot of her bills were due, which if you're already behind on paying your bills, that's just overwhelming. Also, looking at the date of her death between April 8th and 11th, her 20th wedding anniversary with Notchuk would have been on April 9th. And just a few weeks earlier would have been not only the 20th anniversary of her leaving the UK, but also the 15th anniversary of her mother's death. And then the other flip side of that is the genetic side. And there's a big family history component of who gets depression. In the family, there has been mental health. I mean, my mom had postnatal depression. I've gone through a bit of depression. And of the symptoms of major depression, One of them is thinking about suicide. If they start to talk more about death or saying that their life has lost its meaning, that they have nothing to live for, wanting to talk about their will, or just talking about how they don't care about anything anymore, nothing matters to them. Those would be really significant warning signs. I wanted to ask you about, I know that we sent you a transcript of that note that she wrote, and I was curious what your thoughts are. I think it's kind of classic for somebody who has gone beyond where they feel bad. You know, she says she's not miserable. She's not desolate. I'm just tired of hanging on. You don't have to feel like terribly, terribly sad as part of contemplating suicide. It can just be that you don't care anymore. You've gone beyond caring. Do you feel like the time frame between writing this note and her actually dying that eight months has any bearing on those feelings necessarily? Well, I think we don't know what she was feeling when she died because she didn't write anything or talk to anybody about it. But the fact that she wrote it out really quite eloquently, I think, lets us assume that had she put pen to paper right before she died, she might have written something very similar. One of the things I want to say and then probably repeat again, there is no harm in asking somebody if they're thinking about suicide. No harm. In fact, there's a huge benefit because what if somebody's been bottling it up? If you ask them they can then share that they been feeling really hopeless and feeling like they want to go ahead and make a plan It life to know that somebody thinking about it because people almost always change their minds if given an opportunity to be safe for a while. I'm Beverly Ross. I am a counselor along with Executive Director for Nonprofit Counseling Center in Wise County. And I have been in counseling for, I'm going to guess, 22 years. Would you say that there is sort of a societal stigma around suicide and also depression in Texas specifically? Yes, I think there's stigma. I feel like I need to do a disclosure here that I've never lived anywhere else. I know Texas. We're a pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You know, let's get up. You can choose joy, choose joy, choose joy. I like that concept, except I don't think it's as simple as making a choice. I think suicide can bring on a lot of shame and a lot of complicated feelings for the people around, maybe that missed the signs or maybe that saw them clearly and denied them. So many people have told us that she seemed really free-spirited and bubbly and happy and fun to be around. And a lot of people, I think, have had a hard time accepting that this might've been the case. You know, I think part of our innate desire, part of our human wiring is to want to control our environment. And so we want things to be logical and to make sense. I have never heard of a suicide that was 1% logical or 1% made sense. But the guilt and the shame that are left with the friends and the family, the people who loved when it's over, of why didn't I? But sometimes we just have to go, I couldn't do anything. I'm not saying this was definitely a suicide, but that is not unusual to have somebody that gave no signs. They just didn't disclose. So there's a stigma that goes with their family of, I bet they knew or I bet this happened. We complete a story that we don't know. Whenever we're not told the whole story, our brains go ahead and make up the rest of the story. It's just, that's why television is so popular. That's why movies, novels, we love stories. And when we don't know how she died or what she was thinking, we make up scenarios that are easier for us to digest and accept ourselves. There's a lot of mystery to this thing called life. And there's going to be a lot of things I can't figure out, particularly this. And I've got to learn to live in the mystery and in the unknown. I mean, we all want to avoid grief if we can, right? And so I think that's just one coping mechanism to deal with it. People who survive suicide of a loved one are a particularly vulnerable category of survivors because almost always there's some element of guilt about things they could have, should have done, said, the last tasks they should have done together. We talk in our culture about, quote, getting over things like a suicide, but it isn't something you get over. It's something that you live with for the rest of your life. And that's normal. Personally, after talking with everyone we've talked to, I think suicide is a very, very real possibility. The poem she wrote, the note she wrote several months before, the bills, the anniversaries, being alone, being sick. I do think, sadly, that there's a lot that lines up there. I can't say for certain. I can't say absolutely, yes, that definitely happened, which is hard, like everything in this. Yeah, it really is. And I mean, that uncertainty is why I personally still think undetermined is the most appropriate answer. I just wish we knew for sure. But ultimately, it's not our decision to make. Yeah. I will say I did hear back from Dr. Peralo, the doctor who performed Sue's autopsy. He said he didn't remember everything that went into this particular manner of death ruling, but that he's always happy to learn new information, and that it was perfectly acceptable to amend a manner of death ruling if new evidence surfaces later on. I also sent the information we learned from the medical examiner and the toxicologist to the justice of the peace. If there is enough here to reopen the inquest, the JP would be the one to do it. So I gave him the information we had, and we'll see if anything comes of that. Jenna, have you heard anything from Lisa? Yes, she just emailed me this morning, actually. She said that she got a message from her brother Clifford, whose name is Danny now, and they've got their first phone call scheduled for tomorrow. She said she is over the moon about it. Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. I can't believe he was just like waiting for her. That's so sweet. I know. I was thinking we could catch up with her later this week. I know we have a bunch of stuff on our end to share. And actually, I'd love to share it with Stuart as well. Maybe we can find some time with the both of them. Hello there. Hello. That's good to see you again, Stuart. Lisa's not here. She was waiting. I'll give her a quick text, tell her to get her ass in here. I mean, can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Oh, that works, Stuart. Am I on camera? I've got no idea. OK, so you should have a microphone and a camera there. The host has asked you to start your video. OK. you can laugh this is gonna be fun this is gonna be fun so i had an email from the adoption agency saying that we forwarded your details on to clifford within two hours i had a message request from danny and danny is who clifford was at birth and we actually spoke the following day for about 25 minutes on the phone he's always known he was adopted and um he's got his adoption record so it's got like a description of our mum I have pinged in photos that you guys have like pinged to me and he was like oh wow you look just like our mum he always said that he had two birthdays his actual birthday and the day that his parents chose him which I think is just so beautiful but yeah I told him you know what I knew of my mum and my story and then I without blowing his mind totally just said actually there's these amazing guys that have done these podcasts I don't know if you listen to them but he said he was going to try and get his head around things with a few beers and take a look at the podcast but yeah absolutely amazing so I feel that I will eternally be grateful to you guys because not only have I got Uncle Stuart now I've also got my brother Danny. I mean without you guys we wouldn't be together and it's like I've got a nephew and a niece now. That's incredible I'm so glad that y'all have been able to make some connections through this it's really it's really exciting. It's amazing. And if Susan was with us she would be 71 this year. It's a bit of food for thought I'll tell you. Y'all, I just can't get over how lovely Stuart and Lisa are. I'm so happy that they're happy with everything that's happened through this process. And that they found each other and now a brother. Like, that's, I, I just can't, I can't stop smiling. It's just incredible. I just feel really grateful to know that we were able to be a small part of this. And hearing how much it means to them is just really beautiful. It's the best. I actually really, I would love to share this with the Barksdales too. I mean, I don't think the story necessarily turned out the way they expected, but they're the reason we're on this journey in the first place. I think they would be very happy to hear. We're going to talk for the first time. His name is Danny. And so she got to meet her brother for the first time. She's nothing else. That's it. That is amazing. 50 years old and met her brother for the first time. I didn't even know she had one. No. And that's the most important thing because that creates the healing process. And so those are the kind of things that I think is the richest thing. I agree. And we can't, that's priceless. But all in all, all in all, the good that's coming out of this is we have created a new family. We've given closure. And what better thing than an executor has to do? I'm absolutely loving the podcast because my memory is so rubbish. I have to listen to them each time and then I have to listen to them all in a row. So by the end of it, I'll be listening to them all again after I've listened to the first one that many times, etc. And every time I listen to them, I find out more information or I take more information in. but for me it's just building up this picture of my mum's life whether it's the good, the bad, the ugly, whatever Well that's kind of a perfect segue into what I have for you which is we've talked to a bunch of people trying to get to know Sue and I have put together sort of a collection of people talking about Sue in their own words I would love to play it for you if that's okay Sure Sue was very bubbly. A lot of fun to be around. Just a really kind of free spirit. She always seemed peppy. She liked to have a good time. Very outgoing, very friendly, a keen sense of humor and joy to be around. Enjoyed being her friend. She knew a lot of people and everybody that knew her and loved her. She was a personable person. She could talk to anybody. Here's a picture and she's laughing. I mean, giant teeth grin. That's how I remember Sue. We loved each other dearly, you know, and we and I had a lot of fun together. I took a new one. We took a fishing. She didn't do a whole lot of fishing. She'd play with the crabs, and she wanted to go to Scarborough Fair every year. We went out to eat. We went to the lake. We skied. We played. She loved to ride a motorcycle. She knew how to drive a motorcycle. You know, we listened to the radio a lot. I mean, you know, we both like rock and roll. The Rolling Stones, she was, well, We were both big fans of old rock and roll. She liked Rolling Stones and she sang in some nightclubs. She wrote poetry. And she made teddy bears by hand. She shot Hunter's Pistol, was a state champion target shooter. She was a very good marksman. Oh yeah, she loved to shoot guns. We would meet on Thursday nights and play dominoes. The youngest of the crowd of us would usually be drinking and Sue would drink tea or coffee. I don't think I ever saw her drink at all. She drank very little. Every once in a while, she'd have a glass of wine. I know she was a smoker. She did smoke. Marlboro, 100, I think it was. Sue was two packs a day. And she would always make everybody say these British limericks. The one that I remember the most was about the pheasant plucker's son. The language differences Sue found that funny talking about knocking somebody up is actually knocking on their door It not what we think it is She could turn on her English accent in a heartbeat and it like she never left England She's a beautiful girl. She had a great accent. I love the British accent. My daughter was younger then, and she just loved talking to Sue because of her English accent. She would use that British accent to maximum effect. She could put somebody in their place really quick with that, you know. She had a very strong personality. My ex-renmate was, I think, 6'6", about 430 pounds, and he just got a double hunter. She was not going to let anybody take advantage of her. Most people were scared of her, I would say, because of her strong attitude. If she was going out, she was going out fighting. You best not even look in her direction until she has one cup of coffee. She was very demanding. She got what she wanted, you know. But she had a heart to go and she was near you, you know, whatever you needed to. She was a unique individual. She really was. I went and got a new alternator put on my truck one time. The next day, my battery's dead. And we go out and pop the hood on it. And she said, oh, well, these two wires are crossed over here. She was a very intelligent woman. She was very, very smart. She was very astute in human nature. She was so secretive and, I don't know, seemed real insecure. I don't think she liked being by herself. I never really thought that she was paranoid about anything. One of Sue's very favorite sayings was, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. She had her skeletons and she never revealed them. She didn't really talk about herself or her family. So all that sort of stuff, I don't know. She was proud of who she was, but yet she was guarded about where she came from and who she was. She had told me that she had had a child when she was really young. I know she had a child. She had a daughter. She had a daughter. I got the impression that she felt like she was forced to give her the child. That, you know, it wasn't really her choice. She was looking for something. I don't think she really ever found it. But I do hope that she had some pleasure in her life and she enjoyed some moments. It's been kind of fun remembering her because, like I said, it's one of those, you know, she was there in a big part of our lives and then just all of a sudden was gone. It was, it was really. It was a shock to everybody. I wish she was still here, but just like I said, pleasant memories. And like I said, that's the short version. I can definitely send you a longer one, but I wanted you to hear what she was like from the people who knew her. Yeah. Everybody. It's like they couldn't sing her praises. They couldn't sing her praises enough. She was just such a lovely lady and I'm her daughter. Yeah, you are. Well, I'm really just so grateful that y'all let us into your lives like this. I'm grateful. Oh, my goodness. and it all started with Heather, an amazing lady, and then all of you, all of you. I will be eternally grateful. Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's your fault, Heather. Sorry about that, mate. Thanks, Steve. Thank you. It's nice to, because you're sitting back and you've, every year, you know, you know September the 13th is a birthday and everything, and... there's stuff that you want to share, like my kids, how I've been a dad, how I've done things. But you can't, because there's no family to share it with, but now there is. And it's one of those things, you know, it's really good. It's really good. I'm just so happy that I have this opportunity. So with that said and everything, thank you. Thank you very much. I will keep you posted on Danny. Yeah. Because obviously I didn't want to bombard the poor lad. He's only just found out about me. And then I told him he's got an office to it. You know. Imagine. He was like, oh, let me process this already. But I will keep you guys posted. honestly. I would love that. I'm just really happy that y'all got to connect. Thank you both so much. It's been really great catching up with y'all. I'm glad to hear that this has been a positive experience for you. Very much, very much. My daughter just said to me today, she says, why is it like so important to you? You know, Nana and Granddad was your mum and dad. I said, Nana and Granddad will always be my mum and dad. But I said, because I've known right from a very little girl that I was adopted. I've always known about my mum as in, yeah, she went off to America. And I always said I wanted to find her. And I've tried over the years of nothing. So for you guys to get all this information, for me, it just builds this picture of my mum's life. And honestly, I can't thank you enough. It is amazing. And hearing from Stuart and Lisa, I mean, the love they have for each other, you can hear it, you can see it. I mean, I keep thinking about the things Stuart said in that call where he said, there's so many things I want to share and there's no family left to share it with, but now there is. Yeah. They're a family. Yeah. I think they're the point, you know? like they are so happy to have each other and it makes it all worth it it really does yeah and on top of that their new relationship with danny and i hope that danny continues to build a relationship with lisa and with stewart and i hope they all get to meet in person one day and talk about sue yeah the people that we've found you know they're all characters they all have their things and they're all um complicated and beautiful and they've all just been so gracious they've been so gracious with us and you know I was going through trying to find the pieces that belonged in that montage and so many of those conversations were like two hours, three hours. And yeah, it was just really, I'm so grateful that all of these people have been so willing to talk to us about this person because like, she sounds awesome. Like, she sounds like such an amazing person. She sounds like a badass and a sweetheart. And, you know, I don't know. They just all clearly just loved her so much. They loved her so much. I just think everyone should get a podcast for their person you know like everyone should get to make a podcast or write a book or have a 12-hour lecture on a person that they really love that like they don't get to talk about anymore it's just all a bunch of mysterious weird grief stuff and everyone should get a whole podcast and a devoted team of researchers to talk about their person is my official stance on the matter but I mean that's that's the thing that we've been talking about, right? The podcast ends, but all the things that came out of it keep going. And that's, it's really exciting. I told you I wouldn't do this, but here I am. I'm back. I'm speaking to you, the listener, because I have a few things to say. Throughout this process, and still to this day, I change my mind about who Sue was on a near daily basis. We've spoken to so many people. We've learned so much about her. And still so much of it feels just out of my grasp. There is a lot that makes more sense. There is a lot that still keeps me up at night. I don't understand why Steve received this phone call. I don't understand why Sue would have said that she stowed away on a plane to get here. I don't understand why so many of these rumors persist. I don't understand where they started. I don't understand. I did not start this journey to chase down the facts of a crime. I don't believe a crime was committed. But I knew there was a story behind these theories about this woman. and the fact that they've lasted for so long and in so many people's minds and hearts and have not dissipated over the years. And I think maybe the thing that explains it is that Sue was a storyteller too. I think maybe she wanted these rumors to persist and she wanted everyone to have questions and she wanted to leave everything up in the air a bit and keep people guessing and keep people thinking. And I mean, it's worked. Like she successfully kept people thinking about her. She kept the people in her life thinking about her. She's kept the people tangential to her life thinking about her on the outskirts of her life thinking about her. And now she's kept me thinking about her and you thinking about her. And I think, what else can a life measure up to? And even though that life was short, the ripples of her life carry on even now. I think that's extraordinary. Undercover of Night and Reyes Mendoza. Our researcher is Haley Nelson, and our consulting journalist is Bob Sullivan. Mix, sound design, and original music by Will Short, with additional music from Universal Production Music. Story consulting by Brigham Mosley. Our executive producers are Caroline Hamilton, Sharita Lynn Solis, Heather Mansfield-Jernigan, Ted Barnhill, Alia Tavakolian, and Keith Reynolds. Special thanks to Dr. Yvette Shaleen and Beverly Ross for sharing their expertise. And special thanks to everyone who helped bring this story to life. Susan Seeger, Carson McCain, Kelly Kolf, Travis Ballinger, Kristen Bennett, Trey Jones, Janielle Kastner, Alicia Force, Andrew Burnett, Chris Alford, Andrew Jernigan, Valentina Calamon, Lily Milkovic-Jaykel, Parker Severins, Glory Reicheltz, Noah Heller, Piper Worley, and everyone we interviewed. If you have any information on Sue Knight, you can email us at infosuenight at gmail.com. If you or someone you know needs support, go to apple.com slash here to help for resources. Follow on Apple Podcasts and thank y'all for listening.