S1E4: Please, Carol

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McKayla, I'm one of the editors at Pluribus and the host of this podcast. If this is your first time tuning into the podcast, this is not a recap show. It's more of a freewheeling, roundtable discussion, totally unscripted about the making of each episode. And if you haven't yet watched this week's episode, I definitely encourage you to do that before you listen because we'll talk about everything. This podcast is about episode 104 entitled, Please Carol, Please Carol, Please Carol. We know what that is. Written by Allison Tatlock and directed by Zetna Fuentes. In this episode, we meet our mystery man from Paraguay, Manusos. And back in Albuquerque, Carol acquires a kind of truth serum and tries to put Zosia into telling her how to put the world right. And that goes very wrong. Lots to discuss. But before we start, one technical note about this podcast. We had a few audio issues with one of our microphones. So occasionally you'll hear us transitioning in and out of our backup recording in order to hear what's being said more clearly. Not ideal, but we'd rather be able to keep those parts of the conversation in the podcast rather than getting rid of them, despite the slightly lesser audio quality. So I hope you can forgive us. And now without further ado, I'd like to welcome our guests, executive producer and creator of the show, Vince Gilligan. Hey, hey, hey. Executive producer and writer of this episode, Allison Tatlock. Hello. Rock the Tatlock. Carol Sturka herself making a return appearance to the podcast. Ray Sehorn. Hello. Hello, Ray. Hi. And making his official debut on the podcast for the first time ever and the first time in the show. Manusos himself, Carlos Manuel Vesca. Hola, buenas tardes. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Why, he speaks English. What? It's so good to have you here, man. It's lovely. It's incredible to be here, really. And also with us on the ones and twos, the wheels of steel, our assistant editor, also editor mixer of this podcast, Nicholas I. Hello. What's great is everybody or a lot of people who aren't normally necessarily in Los Angeles where we record the podcast, but we really are in the writer's room. We set up microphones, but everybody, a lot of people are in town right now because the premiere, just to give you a little behind the scenes, the premiere is this week, which we're all really excited about. Oh, yeah. Two days, 48 hours from now. That's crazy. Yeah, that's right. Crazy. At an undisclosed location in Los Angeles. But yeah, this is a big episode. We have a new, unafflicted person. I mean, I guess we sort of had the introduction to Manusos in the last episode when Carol was on the plane, but now we actually get to see the other side of that conversation. Let's talk about it. I mean, how did Vesca? You like to be called Vesca? Everybody calls you Vesca. Yeah, I just think it's easier. That's great. Then Carlos Manuel. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. My name's not Carlos. It's Carlos Manuel, so Vesca is easier. Right, right, right, exactly. So yeah, when you race down the street with a scrum of fans to get an autograph from this lovely gentleman here, address him either as Carlos Manuel or as Vesca. Yes. Correct. I've seen that, by the way. I've seen people go after this guy for autographs. You are much beloved. Yes. This is true. And it's only going to get worse. Just the beginning. Like the Beatles in a hard day's night just being hounded to hide behind a newspaper, just like the Beatles. These are topical references, right? The Beatles. Do you know how much attention you would draw to yourself hiding behind an actual print newspaper? Yeah, yeah. Where did you get that? People are like, what is that? What is that? Where did you get that? From the time of the Beatles. Yes. Yes. So I think probably the first thing on everybody's mind watching is certainly the teaser of this episode is how could you possibly have eaten so much disgusting dog food? I knew we were going to talk about that. It is viscerally gross to watch. It's one of those things. It turns your stomach, your reaction to it, which is, I mean, we're not eating the food. I assume you're also not eating dog food, but do you want to talk about that? I think what he really ate is grosser. I think you might be right. You tried it, right, Vince? I did. I'm going to let Vesca describe it. I did. And you know that expression, the gorge. I could feel the gorge rising in my throat. Oh, no. I know what they're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, I felt it. I didn't think it was that bad. Not really. I'm glad because you had to eat a lot more of it than I did. What was hard was eating so much of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially after lunch, it was full. And it was like four cans that I had to. All right, you should have saved your appetite. I know. You have to say, Vesca, that was bad planning on your part. Yeah, that's not professional. Not professional. Also, just to note that we had a version of the dog food that was apparently not gross enough and Vince Gilligan that got to be grosser. Got to be grosser. And so our brilliant props director, Mark Hansen, cooked up an even grosser version. Yeah, it was too dry. The original looked too dry. It needed light glistening off its oiliness. Viscous. Viscous. Well, tell the people what it was. It was haggis and I think it was broth, is it called? Like like this creamy thing on top of it. Yeah, it was haggis. There was some broth, some extra broth in it. But congealed so that it was gelatinous, which is lovely in any food. Was it in the script, the sort of scraping of it with the lid? I mean, how did that? So you're selling the hell out of it. You're making it so uncomfortable to think about being in that situation. I remember Mitch Boom Guy. Mitchell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mitch. He was so lovely to me the whole time and he's a great guy. Yeah, he came close and he said, that time you made me want to throw up. I was watching you. I went like, you don't want to make the boom guy sick because he won't be able to cover his hands because he's on the phone and he sees he's going to drop it on the floor. I know, or drop something else. And yeah, yeah, you don't want to. But I remember Zedna coming over as a director and saying too much. It's it's what you're doing is to what was the word excruciating? Is that a word? It's too much and we need to leave stuff for what's coming to Manusa. So you can't really start at because I was I think I was overacting with the haggis. I don't think it was acting. I mean, there's some wonderful acting in there. But that was just that was just like rank discussed, right? But the thing really, I got to say, I wasn't grossed out or anything. One of my favorite moments is when you actually kind of butch it up there where it's like you start eating it and the look on your face is just damn it. I'm just going to enjoy this. I'm just. But the telephone keeps ringing and doesn't allow me to enjoy this as much as I want to. It's true. We learn a lot about you in that moment because some of us would maybe try to be stoic in front of others, but you're just by yourself and you're still being such a yeah. Mass about it. Yeah. Where do we shoot that the where Manusos is living in that sort of self storage unit? Is that all practical or how is that a combination of set and practical? The office is right. The interior was that it was an awesome set. Yes. Oh, my God. That was such a great set. I mean, I know there's things that only Colombians will notice, but they built a game that people play in Colombia, right? Frog. Yeah, that was because of you. I do not believe you had that thing. But I think I think you or did they build it or did they find one? But we had it because I think we said to you what would be the kind of things this sort of thing. Yeah. And story wise, technically, it's supposed to be a Paraguay. But your character is as you described us, it makes sense for your character to be Colombian, right? Which you are in real life, correct? Correct. Yeah. But that frog game, it was like my I don't know. But my second experience shooting with you guys. Yeah, yeah, right. In a new town in a different country. That was like, wait a minute, where am I? There's a frog game here. And you painted it with the flag of Columbia's flag. Right. We were thinking based on your your discussions with me and with Allison and with Jen and we we talked about, you know, maybe it makes sense. We got to get a backstory in here where this gentleman or his family, you know, it's his background is Columbia. Somehow he's transplanted himself to Paraguay. And didn't we talk about that? We did. We wanted to be really specific and so that it would track with your accent. Oh, nice. The specific way you speak Spanish would feel authentic to the story that we were telling. That's amazing. We wanted to set in Paraguay and also honor the fact that you are Colombian. And Denise Pazzini, of course, our incredible production designer, created the space and then it was Ashley, Michelle Marsh, our set decorator, who came up with all those specific details. Yeah, I have to say when I started reading the for the first time when I read the script and it said, Paraguay, I completely panicked. And I wrote, I texted Jen straight away and said, is this guy Paraguay? Because that's an accent that I would have to really work. And this was like a month before we started and I completely panicked. This is a honestly, if you said Argentinian, Chilean, Mexican, I don't know, Venezuelan, I could have done something with those. Paraguay is a very specific and difficult one. Very almost never here. Oh, really? Almost never. OK, yeah. So that would have been I would have to quit. Sorry. Sorry, I can't do it. No, you'd get a dialect coach and they'd give you time to study if that's what it had to be. Yeah. The exterior of the office just to go back to your question, Chris, was actually shot on location in Albuquerque and at a storage facility that needed to be transformed from the dry desert climate of Albuquerque to be much more lush and damp like South America, Paraguay. And I'm glad you brought that up. And it is I could literally if you walk up that road, you know, there's the chain link fence with padlock on it. If you were to walk through that chain link fence and walk that road, which you see into the distance, you know, when the woman is coming back and forth in the VW Beetle, if you walked up the road, her VW Beetle disappears on. You run into I think it's 4th Street and Albuquerque. From there, you could throw a rock across the street to Vernon's the bar slash restaurant that is where Helen has her. The terrible the world ends in episode one. So it is literally I mean, you could literally throw a rock across the street to Vernon's from there. And the other thing I love about the real self storage place that you're describing is the office that Bezka's character Manusos works in, the one he's holed up in. That's a second story built onto a real self storage unit. That is a second story made out of basically wood and fake basing vinyl stuff that looks like it's made out of cinder block. Jessica facade is a facade. Wow. The second story where the offices does not exist. It was it was just I think we put in the staircase. Yes, yes. Yeah, the magic of the movies. You know, we did an all night shoot, at least one. And the crew at one point was split so that there was a second unit that was specifically shooting the storage units itself for that montage of searching through the storage units. Our incredible director, Zetna Fentes. Is that no. Yeah, Intrepid Person and Amazing Director and Courage in so many aspects. There is one thing she has one. Right. And Achilles heel. I don't know this. What was this? She's saying pretty bulletproof. Exactly. Except for when she is. She is very tough and also very kind, incredible combination, really a dreamy person to work with. She does have one. Yeah. A bugaboo, so to speak, which is. She really is not a fan and none of us like them, but she really is not a fan of the cockroach. And this was a all night shoot in Albuquerque and had nothing to do with the location specifically. It's just the climate and the timing. Let's just say by the middle of the night, there were a lot. I remember a lot of cockroaches. Yeah, I would constantly tell her don't look down. Yeah. I think we had a little platform for her to stand up. Yeah. I asked her how she got through and she's basically like you eating the haggis like she just had to steal herself and say, we are doing this. There's no way around but through and move forward. Wow. And she's lovely. She's a lovely lady. I'm sorry she couldn't be. She's in London working in London. Otherwise, she would have been on this one too. She was so patient. Yeah. That was my very first day. Wow. That was your inside or outside? Outside. The outside part. That was your very first day. First day shooting and I guess the first day is always hard, right? Yeah. Yeah. But imagine you're in a different country working with the industry that you never thought that you would work with. Yeah. You and I had a lot of talks about it. It's a big it's a change. Every set is different, but you had not worked in the US on a set. And so there were a lot of things that you had to adjust to. What did you find was the biggest overall difference? You know what? It was funny that I actually found a lot of things similar. OK. That was like, oh, so we call this thing the same thing. And we do this the same way. The time, the time to do your work over here, your given time to do your work, which I then spoiled it from and said, that's just this show. That's not all American production. All right. OK. But I do. I do remember the rich data and introduction for maybe it's secular our first AD. Just at the beginning of the night, it was what we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And with us tonight is best guy and everybody was applauding. And it was like, hey, these people are really sweet. These people that are top notch. I got to know everyone after that. But at the time, I just assumed if these people are here, it's because they are top notch and they are being so welcoming and so lovely and warm to me, you know, in addition, we kind of want to always want to repay the favor because I wish Gordon Smith was here and because he went down to Colombia years. Yes, he did. Oh, yes, he did. There was a Colombian spin off of Breaking Bad called Montas de Ceci. Yes. Yes. And he was sort of our guy on the ground there and did a wonderful job. It was a wonderful emissary for us. I was sorry. I couldn't make it. I hate to admit I've never been to Colombia. I've had two chances now and hopefully this time you'll come. Yeah, I would love to. But everyone was warm and wonderful to him. He did mention that things move a lot faster in production in Colombia. Yeah, you at that time they'd probably be doing, I don't know, 1820 scenes a day. Specifically for telenovelas or like a series kind of over that. Oh, I know. But I think every channel. It was like it wasn't it was a remake of Breaking Bad. Yes, yes. In their own. Well, they landed it in the context of Colombia. I remember when Gordon came back from that. He had a great time and he loved everybody down there and they were they were wonderful to him and I thought we were going to do more of those. That was Columbia was the country who said we'd like to make a country specific remake of Breaking Bad and they went to Sony and Sony came to me and I thought that's really cool. And we thought there'd be more. But no, it but it was fun doing that one. It was a neat thing. They remade all 62 episodes. Yeah, you know, you're talking about having the time to do things. I was told that in Manuso's notebook when he's tracking all of the radio frequencies, that that's actually your handwriting. It is. And that how how long it'll take you to do that? I mean, you were there's a lot of writing in those books. But before I started shooting that, I had a lot of time, you know, in my hand. So yeah, I could do it. The thing is I I could tell that I was sorry when my hand I couldn't move my fingers. Right. Those those frequencies. See, the thing is for Manuso's and this is the first time we see him is that I couldn't really rehearse the scene because it was all actions. There was no text. I knew what was going on. I knew, OK, so he's going to dial this thing and he's going to be listening to the to the clock and all that. But not I couldn't really prepare. I had to wait to get to set and the director tell me, OK, so this is how you are going. I hadn't thought of that. That'd be soft. That'd make you more nervous, right? Absolutely. I was a nerve. I was like, OK, so I'm I didn't prepare for this because I couldn't. I couldn't. I would think if I if I rehearse this this way, it'll be fixed and I'll come to set and I'm going to tell me, no, it's this way. You know, the radio is not here is going to be there. Yeah, yeah. Sure. So it was it was quite the like the music sheet that you have to learn on the spot. Yeah, right. But she was lovely. She was lovely. Did a great job. What a challenge. It was great. Speaking of I love the music that's all through this introduction. Yeah. I loved all the music that Thomas G, as well as Dave Porter, put in there for all of the Manusos intro stuff. This just is so great. I mean, I've always loved what they do with music, but there was something just really cool about the story introduction of your character and how the music was illustrating some of those points without ever telling you exactly what to think. It was awesome. I agree. And everybody, when you got that warm welcome, this partly because it's a great group of people who do welcome, you know, new folks warmly and also because I think there was a genuine excitement to establish and introduce this whole flavor character. Like we're taking you now audience to a different world and everybody was rooting for you and also genuinely fired up about it. Yeah, true. I mean, I felt like, OK, they're not just welcoming me. They are bringing me into the family. Yeah, exactly. It's so moving. I still think about it. That's awesome. That needle drop, by the way, is called sumac by an artist called Loris. L-O-R-I-S. Loved it. I was I'm sure like many people very surprised to see the actual mayor of Albuquerque. Yes. Tim Keller. Yeah. How did that happen? How did where did that idea come from? And at what point was he brought into the process and having to clear that? Well, Vince Gilligan is the unofficial mayor. So obviously the unofficial mayor reached out to the official mayor and finally they came together. Tim Keller is a cool guy. I had met him once or twice over the years, spent a little bit of time with him. He's he might be America's most handsome mayor. He looks a lot like Aaron Eckhart. He's a very handsome mayor. He is. And we reached out and said, would you be up for this? And he showed up. He spent the day on the set and he had some folks with him and he was doing work in between. He was like taking phone calls and doing like. Mayor stuff, mayor stuff, their work during any. He's he's really good. He's like a natural. He was really funny. He did a great job. Totally game. It was very hot and he had to be out there sweeping the asphalt and cleaning up with the rest of the cleanup crew. And he was totally in it. Yeah, he was great. He does look like an actor playing a mayor even. He does. He is an actual. It is crazy. He is the real. Yeah. For folks watching, that was the real mayor of Albuquerque. Yeah. The current mayor, absolutely. As pictured in the airport. That's right. That's right. He's whenever I go back, I see his face coming down the escalator. And it's it's in the first episode. That's right. That was just a fluke bit of happenstance, but it worked out great. That's awesome. Another person in that scene is Jeff Hiller, the brilliant. Oh, we were so excited to be able to work with him and man, was he a dream and man that he deserved that Emmy he just got. Yes. Yes. Congratulations, Jeff. Yes, he is wonderful. And I've loved his work for a long time, and I loved him as a human. As soon as we started chatting and hanging out and when he when he told me, where do you see what I'm wearing? And then came to set in what I think is a singlet masquerading as a bike uniform. And he's a very tall guy and it's a very short costume. I was dying laughing and he knew it was quite funny as well. But it's also telling the story of these people were in the middle of whatever they were in the middle of when this thing happened and they haven't gotten to a place of changing those clothes yet. We were laughing about his costume and Vince, you happen to be like wandering by or overheard it and you offered appropriately. So like, well, your character doesn't have any because he was saying it's also hot. And now it's starting to ride up in the front. That's not where you want things to. No, and Vince was like, right, but these people, they don't have any vanity. They don't care. Jeff under his breath, he goes, but Jeff does. He was such a good sport. He was a trooper. Yeah, he was a trooper. This was a brilliant costume designer, Jennifer Bryan. She had a vision. It was so good. Her vision was realized. It was. It was the first time I watched that scene. I couldn't with that fantastic scene, which I do want to talk about the content of that scene. Oh, God. But I just couldn't figure out why he looks so familiar to me. I've seen him in things, but I feel like do I know him? And then months later, like not that long ago, Jen sent me some pages from his memoir that was recently published. And he talks about an experience he had. And I realized he was in this like big national Snickers campaign many years ago with my good friend Chris Sullivan, friend of the podcast, Chris Sullivan, for no reason in particular, two of the tallest Snickers readers ever. Yes. Yes. Wow. Yes, they were like one of them was a Viking and one of them was it was this very funny ad campaign that they did, like many different spots. And they were at the Super Bowl and all that. And I realized, oh, that's why I know his face because I had seen all of Sully's ads. So that's a small world. But that's seen. So let's talk about that scene, the writing of it, the shooting of it. Yeah, I had seen Jeff in somebody somewhere as well as some other things. He's just so he's so great. And we got to talking about the scene and that scene from the second it came out in the script was making any of us in the arts cringe. It's like your worst nightmare. Find out that people actually think you're just doing popcorn fair or you're a hack or that your partner actually doesn't think as highly of your work as you thought. Although I think Carol suspected some of what she's asking. And the whole point is it's just such a brilliantly written scene. Miss Tatlok, she is trying to figure out is it possible for these people to lie and she knows that they have this imperative to please her. So she's trying to ask things that would not please her to hear, but she suspects might be truths that how are they going to tell the truth while not upsetting her and which one will win out? And so the fact that she drills down on that particular subject, I think means she suspected some things. Yeah, we were very excited to see you. To imagine you and then see you realize this scene. It's one of those scenes was first of all pleasure to write. It's almost like writing a little play in the middle of a script. Yes. Have two people kind of getting into it across from each other. And it was it was like a one act play. Yeah. And that's how Zetna shot it. Like you guys played it all the way through many times over and over and over before she started getting pieces. So both of the actors had to be Uber prepared, which of course you both were. And then, yeah, be able to to run it as its own little kind of experience together as you went on this journey. It was extra fun to write as a theater nerd because Carol also seems to be a little bit of a theater nerd. Right. Worrying about Shakespeare and thinking about the different Shakespearean plays. And yeah, we pour we talked so much in the room about our own season insecurities as writers and to be able to kind of pour that into the scene and then see it realized like that. And also these really like interesting questions of like, I understand Carol's point of view, although it's quite the philosophical thing to extrapolate to ask yourself is a compliment, a compliment. If somebody feels the same way about something else, why do we need your love of anything to be unique to just your thing? And so she's asking that, but at the same time, asking questions of like, what makes some art important and some art not important? What's and that Jeff's character is saying, like, as long as you made somebody happy and they loved reading it, why is that less important than high art? You know, and that kind of stuff, which really we had some fun conversations in the crew on set. All of these episodes really like, what do you think about that? And they're big questions and he's a theater nerd himself. And so he was like, we're just going to sit here and do this like a one act play when we get to do it over and over and find like all these different nuanced ways to do it, because that's also the first time we see these characters having to wrestle with saying an uncomfortable truth to Carol. But they aren't liars, but how much can they lawyer their way out of how they articulate what they need to say? And he just, we were both like in tears afterwards. And he was like, this is, I don't remember the last time I was given the luxury to just like work on something like this. And I was like, it's kind of heaven, isn't it? My God, really? Yeah. Wow. I luckily, I got to visit that day and you guys were so good. Allison gave you such good stuff and Zetna did such a good job directing you. And it was just a pleasure watching you guys. How do you, I've asked you this before, how do you memorize all that stuff? Like it's amazing. Then that was one day of shooting, right? Did that whole scene in one day? We did. We did that scene for the whole day. Wow. Yeah. It's so funny no matter what you do or how long you do it. Like I still think, Vesca, you can tell me if you feel differently. I still feel like the number one question you do get from people outside of our business entirely is like, how are you guys memorizing those lines? Cause in their head, they're thinking I couldn't do in excess of eight items at the grocery store without writing it down. Do you know what I mean? But I tell them, if you think about it like I'm memorizing a random list, eight pages of random words, then it would be impossible. And we start macro and we go micro. I think most of us have just like, I'm memorizing the beats of a conversation. And so if I asked somebody to in general, repeat the different points of conversation we've had today since we started the podcast, introducing, you know, Vesca, introducing each of us and go through. And obviously we exercise that part of our brain quite a bit doing what we do. But you're doing the chunks of what was the conversation and when did it shift and to what degree. And then you're getting more and more micro of what are the sentences that were in that chunk. It's easier if somebody's other line cues your line in a direct way of like, where do you want to go to dinner? Let's do Thai food is easier than where do you want to go to dinner? I've never seen those shoes. Like that's always harder because you're your own internal monologue. I do them over and over. I write, I hand write them over and over. Some people listen to their lines over and over. And then I also, unless somebody chains me to the floor and won't let me, I go and find my scene partner and run it with them because I truly think anybody. And we've all been there. Like you're an actor in a hotel doing your lines by yourself. And the first time you say I'm out loud is when you got to set and they all action, it's just such a huge, giant, additional obstacle to trying to do a good job. It's better to say them out loud with each other. I think that's awesome. How you do that. Did you and Jeff get to do that? Did you get to, do you ran lines like it? Like a house or something? Yeah, Jeff came over to my rental place and we talked about the scene. And I said, we're not going to lock in anything you're going to discover with Zetna and with Allison and Vince, like what this brand of the others is. What are we seeing that's new? What are we seeing that's established? But he was just excited to talk about character and talk about episodes that he had not seen because he's just arriving with us and then run the lines and run the lines. And yeah, he did say, I was like, I don't remember the last time I was able to do this where you could go and run the lines and rehearse things beforehand. And I was like, well, it's only going to make the show better. It's only going to make me better too. That's awesome. I got to imagine a big part of the conversation was what in the hell is going on in this show? Oh, for sure. And I had to like, I got a lot of that from guest. So like, do you know what's wrong with these people? Do you know how big a smile is? And I was like, funny, you should ask. It's a very finely tuned modulation going on with how much these people smile because you can't look high as a kite. You can't look like a robot. You can't look sinister. You have to look like you're thinking, but it was a lot, a lot for those people to dial in. But yeah, most of the time he had questions about exactly what's going on. I was like, I'm just going to, I'm going to let somebody else answer that because I don't actually, I have the pleasure of playing someone that has no idea what's going on. And these are very fair questions. It's very difficult. The job that Jeff and these other guest stars have to do is, yes, to find this balance of I'm a very good natured person and I'm also authentic. I don't feel fake in my smiling and I also takes a lot to bring me down. I mean, to find that right balance. And then in a seven page scene, the scene we're talking about, I believe a seven page. So to find the sort of variety to play different beats within the scene when you know that this character is wired so specifically, it's quite challenging. Very challenging. And yet the mayor got it right away. One line just killed it. Now there's a pro. Right. You know, Ray, you said something. You said the phrase high as a kite, which is something that Carol does in this episode. She does. Carol gets quite high. Do you guys want to talk about writing and shooting that? I I assume you had some fun coming up with some of the crazy things. I know there's a ton of material for the extras on DVD. Lots of good outtakes. A lot of great outtakes. We couldn't use everything, which was actually painful for me. I understood, including the scripted me singing Melissa Atherich. Yes, Ray saying Melissa Atherich at the top of her lungs and it didn't make it into the show. That's how much good stuff we had. There was a lot of good stuff. It was fun. We had it. It was very funny. And I would say, though, in all seriousness, some of the technically challenging stuff was finding the tone. How comedic can it be? And so I think we did a lot of material partially so that it could be found of like this constant balance in the show of how comedic can a moment be and be supported with this very dramatic moment happening over here and where is this tone? And it shouldn't be cutesy. And I think sometimes it was getting cutesy, probably because of me. But but we were given the space to push it as dramatically. I think we all were really happy that when I was given license to also let some of it be very real and very dark, that her I miss you and crying about her wife. It didn't say it was about her wife, but I thought clearly you would go to that place as well, like drunk crying kind of feeling. So it was really great to find those things. So that was technically challenging. And then the other thing was on the day I was told, or maybe the day before, probably like even the week before, but this idea that some of the footage would be the footage that Carol was doing herself, right? And then I was told that's the only footage that it wouldn't be covered by other cameras. I was like, oh, that's cool. That's really interesting. It wasn't until like two days before we filmed it that I thought, oh, well, then it would have to be a continuous take. I thought because what was it? Was it two or three pages of pieces you'd written like singing Melissa Etheridge, and then it was reading from her own book. And yeah, it's quite a bit. It was a lot. And I thought they were disjointed pieces. And then when I realized you need the option of being able to take full pieces of the take with those things together, I was like, oh, well, the funniest while still being the most grounded way and heartfelt way for her to be in that space is to connect these seemingly very disparate things because someone on drugs are like, if you drank too much, like you're connecting two thoughts, even though everybody else looks insane to the drunk, it totally makes sense to talk about this thing and then that thing and then that thing. So so that was challenging, but really fun. I had written in the connective tissue between each of these things of why she would start reading from her book after whatever, singing Melissa Etheridge and stuff, I would add things. And I think I put the sweater on and then was like, I'm a professor, which led her to like reading from her book. I was doing anything I could to like, because I also had to memorize, like we were talking about memorizing lines, completely disjointed chunks that are not taken off any cue. So that's what I did. I wrote the middles. Yes. This was an incredible collaboration between writers, director and actor. And it was kind of wild to watch it come to life. We were watching in real time as the incredible race. You've found her way from one. There was like a lot of things that were crew inside. There was also some improvisation. There was some improv. Yes. And it was hard not to laugh. We were all tamping down, tamping down. There was a lot of church giggles at the monitor and video village and a huge round of applause when it was over, because it was like. It took a long time. That's what I was about. Yeah. Long. Long. I mean, those were long. Yeah. More than one and long. And then also there were pieces, you know, pieces were picked up. But there was some shot continuous. The whole thing was incredible. And I was so dazzled. Wow. I feel like if there was video of Zetna and me, I would have, you know, my like the flak jawed, I was mesmerized watching you move from one piece of the event to the next and some of the funniest stuff I thought came out of that because your voice would stop doing. Yes. It was fun. I was a lot of fun. And then later when you're shooting the part with you watching it. Horrified. Did you actually watch what it was or were you just. They did make a they made a cut, a mini cut for me to watch for that that I had not seen yet. Yes. Skip. A feat of editing as well, we should say, because it did have to call through all of this stuff and then help us. Yeah. But I love your the way that you play that. I think anybody who's ever seen a video of themselves drunk or doing something maybe you don't even remember. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. I mean, I can't say for sure that that is my experience, but but it's just like, oh, no, oh, no, I don't want to. I can't. Oh, no. It's embarrassing and the crying is tragic. I mean, Vince and I both felt very sad watching that and the fact that you were able to go there while also being in these other. Well, then Carol's, I mean, it's both Carol, but then your reaction, watching it sober and really it jokes you up. It's just the viewer. I mean, it's because your reaction. Oh, her reaction to the fact that she cried. It's really good. I mean, it's really because she's not really allowing herself that sober. Right. The fact that she's like, yep, that lives in me. I'm aware I keep swallowing it every day. I really like it when you agree with yourself. I know that's one of my favorite moments. I think we even wrote in the script like, yay, me or I good job, me or whatever in the stage direction. So it was very gratifying. How annoying is that chick? And you're like, yes, yes, I am. I know for a second she's like, I'm glad someone else thinks the way I do. And it's like, it's you. You really adamantly agree with her. So sad her life is at this point. She's like, someone's on my side. It's me. This episode ends with what is referred to, I think, in the script and around the office as the convergence of all of when she affects Zosha and they all crowd around her, those please Carol and kind of leaving us on this note of where is this going next? I know that that sequence, that that convergence, I know that they started rehearsing that days before to try and get all of that. You know, how involved. The background artists were incredible. Amazing. Yeah. Incredible. We had to shoot it for multiple days and it was very hot. Very, very hot. Well, Rich Sickler, our AD had the great idea to map it out inside. So we did kind of a pre rehearsal rehearsal. Right on a sound. Inside on our stages. Yes. And taped it out. And so to give sense of what it would be like without being out in the blazing heat. So there was like the pre rehearsal and then rehearsal and then shooting. And then of course we had the support of our movement expert, Nido. Nido, yeah. We had Nido. You may have heard Nido on the bonus episode from 101. Right. And then Sherry Monassano and Ashlyn Padilla and their team trying to figure out these tears that are running down these people's faces. Shout out to Carolina as well. How to cry without looking pain is a very difficult thing because they aren't experiencing the emotional anguish as much as just the tears are flowing. And then all the other people, because Carolina's character has been altered by the drugs that Carol has given her. So she's feeling more than they are in a way or at least allowing her physical body is allowing itself to do things that the rest of them are not. And then they had to figure out how to get tears. I think it was vitamin E oil and stuff because they have to stay there. It's not like people are squeezing their eyes and crying. And then how do you get that to show with bright sunlight on their face? It was quite the feat and running around doing 150 people. I voted for onions, bags of onions. Stick them in everybody's face right before we. Carolina did have a combination of real tears. She did. And so did many people there. Yeah. I'm not taking away from what she did. Just because it was so hot. No, it was more. It was more the her character, what it's at least going through a thing. And well, so are they because they're all of one mind. Yeah, I don't take anything away from what any of them were doing, but it was mostly the background artists that would need to have this sort of almost continuous look that would be impossible to create as a human being for the for the takes and the angles and everything. Oh, yeah, absolutely. No, Carolina was brilliant in it. Yes, everyone to be generating real tears under those circumstances. Maybe I was generating real sweat, though. So that was the behind the scenes photos of how many people had battery operated fans on me. And it was not because like, oh, number one has to be kept cool. Well, the rest of you sweat. It was because I sweat like a boy who's been forced to like go to camp to learn sports or I'm soaking. That's how I sweat. It's not perspiring. It's not glowing. It is soaking wet hair within seconds. It's the resets. It kills people because my hair soaking wet. Now you've got to dry it to look like the beginning. I have multiple shirts for so many costumes that shouldn't need multiple shirts because of the amount of sweat. Well, I say good for you for sweating on camera. Women's sweat. And as Vince knows, because I called it out during the edit, I love the moment where you decide to sniff your pit when you get into that funky smelling car. Well, it was part and parcel of this idea of like in these very dark moments, like that there's just something that's very observationally human funny. And I was like, so I drive this car now. And you're like, no, even at the depths of her despair, she decides this smells too much. Even I am above this. Well, as we wrap up, I just want to give two shout outs. One, a couple of people that appear on screen. One is Allison's husband, David Blighter, who is the hospital worker who Carol asked for heroin from. Yes. And then right at the end there, the person giving CPR using the AED machine, the vibrator is Rosa Estrada, who was the fabled medic from Better Call Saul, who, you know, saved Bob Odin Kirk's life. Yeah, that's right. That crazy day. Was any of that inspired by that like narratively? Because I had never even thought about those machines. And then once that happened, we all took training. And we all we have one in the kitchen. And it's just here in the writer's post production offices. We have one in the kitchen now, an AED machine. And I mean, I'll never forget that. And Ray, I know you won't either. It was the day that happened. And and it was Rosa Estrada and it was Angie Meyer, your first A.D. who was doing chest compressions. Yeah, I mean, who better to play that scene in this episode than Rosa? Oh, yeah. And I don't I don't think we didn't consciously push the story in that direction because of that experience. But once we decided that this was where the story was going, we were very aware that people, including you, Ray, had been through this traumatic experience on the set. And I do remember we all felt a little bit protective of you that you would have to go through this scene having been through this real life experience. You guys were very sweet when I am trying to resuscitate my wife as well in the pilot. Exactly. And we've had a bunch of that in this thing so far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but no, everybody was very kind about it and helpful and all of that. I felt OK about it would have felt wrong to prostitute that experience into this. It was not something that I sat off to the side and thought, like, OK, here's how I'll squeeze fear or tears out. You know, having said that, I'm aware of the variety of reactions one can have, like that people have when something like that is happening. Well, we'll have to wait until next week to find out what happens. But thank you all for coming in on a Sunday to record this. And thank you all for listening. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is awesome. All right. Thank you so much to Carlos Manuel Vesca, Ray Seahorn, Allison Tatlock and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes and watch Pluribus on Apple TV were available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Sy, the music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest and Nicholas Sy. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McKayla. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.