Todd & Julie Get REAL (feat. Thais Gibson)

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Thais is a best-selling author, researcher, and founder of the Personal Development School, a global learning platform helping people heal at the subconscious level and build secure, fulfilling relationships. That's kind of you in a nutshell. Exactly. You also have this amazing book, The Attachment Theory. So I think we should just get started. Todd, are you familiar at all with this? No, I had to have my wife to explain this to me. But I mean, I know what attachment theory is because everyone around me has an attachment to me. Okay, that's not exactly what it is. So before you spread falsehoods, we're going to have Thais, the expert. Tell us exactly what attachment theory is. And yeah, let's just get started. Yeah. So everybody has an attachment style. There are four of them. And your attachment style is essentially the subconscious set of rules that you get conditioned with in childhood that basically form how you're going to relate to other people as an adult and what you tend to expect in relationships, how you give and receive love, how you communicate, how you set your boundaries. and I always give people the analogy that if you have a different attachment style than somebody else, it's sort of like you're sitting down and you're trying to play a board game, but you have a different set of rules for how the board game goes. It's like you have the rules for Scrabble and you have the rules for Monopoly. You're just going to have confusion, even if you intend to have a good time because you have different rules for how the game's supposed to go. So there are four major attachment styles. We really developed this body of work on top of traditional attachment theory to go into how you can actually change your attachment style. because for people who hear themselves. That was so interesting to me. And I can't wait to hear this because I grew up and I have said it a million times myself. You are the way you are. You are the way you are because of the way that you grew up and the things that you experienced and what you, so that explains why you are the way you are today. But to hear you explain it that, no, this is not etched in stone. This is something very much that you can change if you make that conscious decision to do so and the repetition. Yes, exactly. So we really developed this body of work about how you change your subconscious mind. So I think it's really important to note that your conscious mind, that part of you that's like your logical, analytical thinking self, the part of you that says like, oh, I'm going to quit eating chocolate for New Year's, that part of you that can sort of reason and think about your desires, that's only three to five percent of all of your beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions, and your actions. Your subconscious mind and unconscious collectively are 95 to 97%. It's why, for example, you hear people say things like, oh, I'm going to quit eating chocolate for New Year's. And then like three days later, they're back to eating chocolate because you can consciously desire something. But how do you get yourself to line up with your behaviors? So I really focus on how we can help people change at the subconscious level by leveraging neuroplasticity, how we can actually change our brains through repetition and emotion. And I really apply this to our attachment cells and our relationships. So if you'd like, I can kind of dive into the four attachment cells and we can talk about how to change. Okay, cool. So there are four attachment cells. Again, every person has one. The first 50% of people are securely attached. Securely attached children grow up in households with a lot of what we call approach-oriented behaviors from their parents. This sounds like kind of this random thing in psychology, but it goes a really long way. Approach-oriented behaviors are when parents are very attuned to their kids. And when the child is distressed, they notice and they approach them. And this might seem like a small thing, but it has a huge impact on our conditioning or our subconscious wiring, the same thing. And what this means is children learn, okay, well, I can trust people. I can trust that people are going to be there for me. I get love in my good moments, but also in my hard moments. It's not like I'm just getting love when I'm achieving or performing. Like I can be distressed and cry and they're going to show up for me. And so we get that. So we also, we learn that, okay, you're worthy of love in your good moments, but also in your hard moments, right? And so children then grow up in this dynamic of thinking, well, I'm worthy of love. I can communicate my emotions. I can trust that people will be there for me. I can rely on other people. And so they take all of this healthy conditioning and this is what they bring into their adult relationships. And so, of course, they report, and this is really interesting, securely attached people report having the longest lasting relationships. But most importantly, they report being the most fulfilled in those long lasting relationships. They report feeling really comfortable, really connected, having a lot of emotional and physical intimacy in their relationships. And so this is sort of like the gold standard of what we want to have. And what is also interesting is the divorce rate moves in lockstep with the secure attachment rate. So when securely attachment data, when we get that information says, oh, secure attachment is on the decline, the divorce rate increases and vice versa. So that would make sense because you're feeling less secure. Right. Exactly. So they very much like, in other words, your attachment style is kind of determining your fulfillment in relationships and the longevity. But also I feel like most people that are, have secure attachment, they don't end up with somebody with, with secure attachment necessarily. Not always. Yeah. It's kind of like you have different attachment styles that you're meshing together. Yes, exactly. And so a lot of people more will, who are securely attached will end up with, they're more likely to end up with other secure people because they have those healthy dynamics, but that's not always the case. And if you're insecurely attached, you usually end up with other insecure attachment cells and it's kind of chaotic. Right. So, so then there's three insecure attachment cells and feel free to jump in whenever you have questions. Well, let me ask you, when you talk about this secure attachment, Julie and I, you know, we have raised, we're on our sixth child night and each child, you know, not really with Chase and Savannah because they're 14 months apart. But with Grayson, who comes along nine years later, you know, or 10 years from Chase, we were different parents with Grayson than what we were with Chase and Savannah. And now here comes Chloe. She's 12 or 13. She comes along, you know, what is that? She's 13. So Grayson was what, six when we got her, when Chloe came to us. So obviously it's a different parenting with her now. And I think that we as and and I speak for both of us because I watch how Julie does. I think that for us that we're just more relaxed in what we're doing and we know what works and what doesn't work at this point. But when you go back to what you had just said, I feel like that we were always there. We just talked about this this morning that we were always there for our children. And even if they were having what you said, a stressful moment. Now, listen, we certainly did not. I'm not a coddler. You know, if you're sitting in the corner crying, I don't look at you as like, oh, honey, let's sit down and talk about this. I'm like, get your ass up, shake it off and let's keep moving. You're not dying. It's not. What is it called? Parenting. I'm not into soft parenting or whatever it is. It's called soft parenting. What is it called? Permissive parenting. Gentle parenting. Gentle parenting. We got all this gentle parenting going on. That's why we got all these damn nose rings and purple hair and parading up down the street. They had gentle parenting. They didn't have belt ties. And there is a really interesting line, honestly, when it comes to parenting, too. Not to go too far off topic, but permissive parenting actually has a lot of downsides to it. Permissive parenting is just a clinical term for gentle parenting. Yeah. Um, too extreme. Like there, there's this whole thing that optimal growth occurs at the border between support and challenge. So if a child is overly supported, they don't grow because they don't have to, right. They never actually learned to build their adaptation muscles. Right. But then also if children are over challenged with no support, you know, if somebody grows up in like a super traumatic household, obviously they don't grow either. So the optimal type of parenting is called authoritative parenting. I got it. I did that. I'm the authoritative parent. Agreed. Yeah. But there's also balance. There's balance to that, too. I should have known. Give a little and she'll take it back. I do agree because, you know, Julie and I, I was the authoritarian. I was the parent that said, no, we're not doing this. Julie was the coddler. She was the one. It's OK. So authoritarian is like the two and ten sometimes. Authoritative is that nice balance in the middle, which it sounds like you probably were somewhere in the middle. Well, she would say that I was probably to the all the way up here. And the kids would probably say I was all the way up here. I think at the beginning with the first sets of kids, you were more so. But as you've aged, you've kind of moved to the middle a little more, which is good. That's really good. So that's the first attachment style is your secure attachment style. And so then we have three insecure attachment styles. And you can kind of imagine these three as being along a continuum. And as I tell you about them, you'll probably know somebody that you've met or had in your life or a friend who's like these attachment styles because it's pretty easy to spot. So at one end, you have the anxious attachment style. Anxious kids have a lot of either real or perceived abandonment. So real abandonment would be the obvious. God forbid, you know, somebody loses a parent at a young age or, you know, there's something traumatic happens, a parent leaves the home and just doesn't come back after a divorce, those types of situations. Perceived abandonment has a very similar impact on the way we get conditioned if it happens repeatedly enough over time. Because how our brain works is whatever happens through repetition and emotion fires and wires neural pathways. So if we get a lot of repetition of perceived abandonment, then over time it has a really similar impact on the brain as a real abandonment. Perceived abandonment would be things like you have very loving parents, but they're always gone. It's like, okay, parents are there. Okay. Then they're gone. They work a lot. They're always traveling. And maybe the kids are always left with the grandparents, things like that. Nannies, things like that. Exactly. And if it's really in excess, a child ends up growing up in a household where they're like, okay, love is there. And then love is taken away. Parents are there. Oh, they're gone. Parents are there. They're gone. And so over time, they're constantly bracing to feel like that love is going to be gone. That connection is going to be gone. And so as an adult, their condition becomes really interesting. They grow up and they end up being very anxiously attached, which means they fear abandonment. They fear being alone. Their big triggers in relationships are those two things, but also the fear of being disliked, rejected, excluded, unloved. These are these big triggers for them. And anxiously attached individuals cope with this by basically trying to people-please their way into everything. They burn the candle at both ends. They constantly overcompensate. They're very generous. They're usually very likable, sweet, friendly people. I think that's what I am then. interesting anxiously attached yeah you do because i'm i'm a pleaser i'm doing for people all the time um and i've always you know tried to make sure that everyone liked me well and i mean and you now i don't give a shit i think i've conquered well but you've even said though as a child because your mother worked all the time worked all the time and like he would say like he would have this fear oh my gosh is my mom coming home you know she's going to be in an accident or you know she's if she was five minutes late, he would worry. That's exactly it. So anxious attachment styles, they fear not just like somebody abandoning them, like leaving, but they fear things like they'll really go in their mind and think, oh, they're five minutes late. Like, did something bad happen? Did they die? Are they okay? Oh my God, that's me. I still do that. Savannah this morning. Don't answer the phone. Yes, Savannah this morning. Savannah's our 28 year old daughter. And she's gorgeous. I'm so smart. but um this morning i had not heard from her and then i said and i always send her a message every morning good morning beauty yeah and i said good morning beauty how are you and she said i i'm just boarding i just boarded my flight she says i was putting my suitcase overhead and it fell down it hit me in my eye oh no and i said and this is why you have to marry well so you're flying private And, um, and, but then the moment, and so I went back and show you on my phone. I said, why did you not text me this morning? What if something had happened to you and I would have not had a text from you to where I had said, I loved you. So that I've carried that straightforward from childhood because mine was so bad that my mother worked from seven o'clock at night till seven o'clock in the morning. And it took 30 minutes to get from her job home. If she was more than a minute late, I was on the corner of our street standing where I could see the traffic coming to stand there and watch on that corner to see her come down the road. And once I saw that car approaching, it was like someone had just drained all the fear out of me. Yeah. And I remember my mother would get out of the car and she said, get in the house and stop acting crazy. People's going to think you're crazy. Yeah, I'm fine. and she's always to this day at 81 years old she's always said if something was wrong with me i would let you know she didn't have a cell phone back then so how was she gonna let me know and how is she gonna let me know if she's on the side of the road in a car accident automatically thinks the worst you know if somebody doesn't answer you know i'm on an important phone call or what i'm using the bathroom whatever and don't answer oh my god are you okay i thought somebody had gotten you or i thought you had wrecked he automatically goes to the worst case scenario. And that's very much that fear of losing love, fear of that. And it's funny because it won't be structured that way in your mind, like consciously you'll be like, oh, I'm scared something bad happens to them. But at the end of the day, it's if something bad happens to them, then I would lose them. And I would feel this like deep pain of abandonment. But you know, this is God has been working on me so much in the last few years. And I literally just said to you the other day when we were talking, I think this was on Saturday and you You were out in your car. I was in mine. We were talking and I said it was about you getting with your health and all that much stuff. And I said, but it's so selfish because you don't even stop to think if something happened to you, what would happen to me? So when you just said that, that's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah, exactly. Because I don't you know, I know that as long as she's here, I can go and do whatever I need to do. I don't have no problem in getting stuff done. It is the fear of knowing that this person might be taken away from you that causes me sometimes to get so crazy that I just overreact with everything. 100%. And that's that exactly that deep rooted fear. And I think it's really important to note that if these things like you can have a balanced relationship to it, you can recondition these things at a subconscious level. They've imprinted your subconscious mind. you can change them so that you can still be cautious and look out for people and be protective but it doesn't have to eat you up inside and that's a lot of sort of the the focus that we do is you can work through changing at a neuroplastic level some of those deep rooted fears that come from childhood so like my children and my wife like if they bought me really nice gifts would that help me with this this is feeling you we can get into like the reconditioning and all that stuff for sure tell them it's gonna cost them to help me and then some of the other things you'll see with the anxious attachment cells that they are for sure people pleasers and you might have worked through that but but like you mentioned but people pleasers for sure um they're very loving they're very caring people but they basically can run themselves into like oblivion like they can just okay i'm gonna do the best and show up and overgive and make sure everybody's good around me. And it's kind of at the expense of yourself. So you may find that you do that to the extent where you're like, wait, what about me? And then sometimes this is literally like you are speaking to me and my daughter. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very, honestly, this is, this is when people hear the attachment cells are usually like, Oh my gosh, that's me. How do you know everything about me? Cause it's, it's like, this is the patterning for people. It is. And Savannah and I, we talk because Savannah and I are very close and we talk about it all the time. And I say to her, don't be me. Don't be me because you will end up when you hit 40, you will feel so much resentment towards everyone around you that they have done nothing but take, take, take. But then when you get 50, you will start realizing they only took what you were willing to give. Yes, exactly. And until you can get to a place to where you're okay with saying, I'm not good with that. Yep. I'm not good with giving you that part of me anymore. Exactly. And Julie will say to me, you know, since we've been on our sabbatical, you know, for 28 months, um, Julie will say to me, you're different. The way you respond to things is, you know, is that's good. Yep. And, but she doesn't feel that that's good. Cause she feels like that because, and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong with this, because I don't know, but I mean, what you're saying has got me so excited because you've just identified me and my daughter. I think that when you're a certain way for so long, because she only knows me and my kids only know me for the same way as that. And now I am different. I mean, and I think that that's a good thing for me because I don't feel as anxious as I used to feel. But I think that the people that knew you for 30 years as one way, and then all of a sudden you flip the script on them, then they start feeling insecure about, well, wait a minute. Does he not love me enough? Does he not love me the same anymore because he's not worrying about me as much as he used to? Or he's not taking this position like he would have taken before? Yeah. So usually what happens is for sure everything is conditioned and it's interesting because we get conditioned how we expect each other to be in a relationship over time. Like if you've been together for years and years, you learn each other in that way, right? So it can feel confronting when somebody changes that we're used to. But that's why telling somebody because a big part of healing anxious attachment style is rewiring those wounds, those fears for sure, which is a big topic. but then also learning to meet some of your own needs, learning to set boundaries in healthy ways, because without that, you always, and literally you said this, it's one of the biggest things we talk about for anxious attachment cells is that you resent people around you because when you have unmet needs and you're not communicating them because you're too busy people pleasing, you have one path and that's resentment. And so at the initial stages, it could feel confronting, like to see that you're starting to set boundaries or you're starting to look out for your own needs or for yourself too. But with that, the resentment goes down and usually relationships over time become more peaceful. And then a big part of healing anxious attachment cells is learning to communicate your needs too. Learning that it's okay to rely on other people, to receive from people, to ask for help and support sometimes instead of always being that helping supporting role to everybody else. Like we need that reciprocal co-regulation in relationships and without it, that usually what ends up happening is people pleasing to oblivion, you become resentful and then the frustration comes out in these different ways in life. And so that is actually healing that you're setting those boundaries, but it's helpful for people around you to have context that you're working on it. Because when they're like, oh, you're doing that because that's your growth. That's you showing up for yourself. That's actually going to help you feel more connected and less resentful in relationships. Then we see it as a good thing. And that context can really help. I mean I feel like that this is great This is just meant to be All right So what the next one So at the other end of the continuum is the dismissive avoidant So in a lot of ways dismissive avoidants are kind of the opposite Dismissive avoidants grow up with childhood emotional neglect. And we often think that, and we think like, oh my gosh, children are like at home alone trying to find food at four, you know, four years old. It can be really severe for sure, but like 95% of cases are not that. 95% of cases of dismissive avoidant are actually growing up in a very stable household where like structure is there, order, food is on the table at a certain time, everything's all good, but the parents are not attuned. They're not available to the child. They're not attuned to their emotions. They're withdrawn. They're dealing with their own stuff. They're kind of a shell of themselves at times. And so a child, when they cry or express distress, the child ends up getting from their parent, like, ah, children should be seen and not heard, or, okay, get out of here, like stiff upper lip. And a lot of this messaging where it's like, try it up yeah yeah try it up i didn't know what's trying and and that's what she says to me and that's the really consistent messaging they get in their household all the time and so a child because child are wired for they really need to feel safe they need to feel seen they need to feel special and so if children are you know needing this really deeply but then they're not getting it very consistently they go oh well i guess this part of me is just wrong i guess this emotional vulnerable part of me is defective. I need to stuff it down and I need to park it away. And so they end up becoming individuals who really push down their emotions. They tend to be quite stoic when they're going through things. They're not very expressive. And as adults, they have these big core triggers. Number one, they're really afraid of being seen as shameful or defective because they believe that this like emotional vulnerable part of them is defective or wrong. So they try to like keep everybody at arm's length and not really show inside of their shell. and they have this huge fear of being weak if they're vulnerable, of not really belonging deep down. They don't feel this deep sense of connectedness to people around them. And they also have huge fears of being trapped or helpless or powerless if they end up relying on somebody and then that person can't be there for them and can't really like meet their needs. So as adults, they end up being the individuals who they start dating people, they start getting into relationships. But as soon as things get real or serious, they're like, got to get out of here. I've got one of those. One of those as a friend or one of your children. Okay, there you go. Yep. And so, and it's very common, right? This is very common in terms of attachment cells. And so they end up not wanting to emotionally bond or emotionally connect. Too much closeness scares them because deep down they're afraid of being seen. And it's interesting too, because they're very stoic. Like you won't know, but they're very sensitive to criticism because they don't take criticism as, oh, you did something wrong. You made a mistake. It's a personal attack. Exactly. They take criticism and you nailed it. They take criticism as like, I am wrong. I made, oh, I made a mistake. I am dysfunctional. I am defective at my core. And so that's how ironic you can always point that out in me, but you don't see it in my brothers or sisters. Yep. And it's this deep, deep, like they harbor that at a really deep level. And they're the type of individual that if there's a fight or an argument, and it's interesting because you'll often see these people in relationships together, that the anxious person wants to resolve the conflict right here and right now. You know who this is. And the dismissal avoidant is like, nope, we're not going to do this. And, you know, I worked in our programs, but also with couples for a long time that come into our programs. And you'd see these dynamics where like the anxious partner, they kind of follow the dismissive avoidant into the room. And the dismissive avoidant is like trying to close the door and try to have the conflict later. The anxious person's like, and let's open the door and let's talk about it right now. And they just really want to get things sorted because they want there to be peace and everything to be OK. And the avoidant is more like, nope, I just need space. I need time. they take a while to really process their emotions and they're usually hyper independent and struggle to rely on other people. See, I feel like that's some of me. I was going to say, I was going to say, I feel like that that is Julie because if you, if there's conflict, she gets quiet. Yes, exactly. She gets quiet and she's, she's looking around and she's like, okay. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I look at that. I'm like, what is that? What the hell is this? Okay. Because I'm like a bull in a China shop. I mean, if shit's going down, I run right out in the middle of it and say, what the hell is going on here? Why are you acting so stupid? Yeah. Yeah. It's very simple. This is black. This is white. We don't live in gray. Yeah. Julie, when conflict goes on, she literally does go in. She digresses. She goes back within herself. And it's almost like she runs with inside herself and does this. Yes. To make sure that no one can get to her. And that has been a problem, not really a problem in our marriage, because I identified that very early on, wouldn't you say? because I would say to you, you, you have said that I talked it to death to where she would not talk about it. She held everything in and I gained resentment for that because I'm like, so wait a minute, we're both in this marriage. We have these children. I'm here. I'm showing up. I'm being vulnerable. I'm trying to talk this out with you and you have nothing to say. Yeah. Yeah. You're not participating. You're wanting me to do it all. So then that resentment would build within me, you know, and now I look at it with what you're saying is, is that that really was outside of her ability. One hundred percent. Exactly. And it's so beautifully articulated is it's that you each learn different coping mechanisms growing up. So as an anxious person, you learned, OK, let me go forward and let me try to maintain proximity and do everything I can to please as an avoidant. If you tried to do that in childhood, you wouldn't have really been rewarded for that. So that didn't work. So all of that warehouse of your conditioning, that subconscious 95% of our programming is like, no, I just need to be hyper independent and dismissive avoidance actually learn in their childhood that their best way to maintain closeness to people is to take up as little space as possible and to diminish their attachment needs. So they didn't try to go and soothe with other people. They didn't try to, that wasn't rewarded. So they didn't get like positive reinforcement. Okay, this works for me. that if they tried to do that as children, that was met with them again, being sort of dismissed or denied. So then they go and a lot of dismissal wouldn't protect their relationships by avoiding conflict. They're like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to say words that I can't take back. They're very careful with their words. They internalize things and they internalize things as a way sometimes of trying to protect the relationship around them. And so you see these two different, and this is where it's like the different set of rules, like the board game, right? It's like you have these different ways that you're trying to both care for each other, but it's based on your own individual conditioning. So it's often, it often gets confused. And you know, with us being in television, we've been in television now for what, 13 years? Well, we were actually on TV for 10. So 13 years, 13 years. And Julie never knew how to say no. Yeah. I don't care if it was to crew, if it was to the networks, If it was, you know, we need you to show up here to do this. And I would and she was sure, no problem, no problem. But then when the conversation ended, I'm left with her. And it was, well, I'm trying to do this and I'm trying to do that. And then I got to go do this. But why did you sign up for that? Why didn't you say no? And I now understand that we have to as an individual. And this is just what I have learned on my own. So whether it's right or wrong, it's working for me. So, I mean, I want you to tell me if it's not right. But what I have learned is that if we don't protect our own peace, then we can't create a peaceful environment around us. 100%. And so I don't want to, I don't want to have that. I really do look forward to creating a peaceful environment for this next chapter of our life. You know, you know, we're going to have grandchildren. I want my grandchildren coming into a peaceful environment. Yeah. I don't want to hear from my kids about, well, daddy, you made us do this and you're not making them do that. I don't give a shit about all that. This is now a peaceful environment. Yeah. How I was with you then and how I am today is different because I now have found out who I am. Yes. And once I found out who I was, I then realized that, okay, Todd, this is why that situation happened. This is why this relationship didn't work with this person. And this is why you felt this way because of what they said. I have now learned to internalize those things. That took me a long time, but I do have a greater level of peace because I'm not fighting with myself anymore. Yes. And that's beautiful. And so there's actually like five pillars and we can get into them. We still all maybe cover the last attachment style, but there's five pillars of healing and they're the same for different for each attachment style and and you're touching on some of them like the boundaries knowing your needs being able to and anxious attachment cells they really have to do that work dismissive avoidance have to learn to co-regulate and share their boundaries and needs more instead of always putting all the burden on of everything on themselves to please and show up and then not really speak their truth and situations but we can get into maybe some of that in a lot of detail yeah um but i'll just go through the last attachment style so the last attachment style is called fearful avoidant. And they are really interesting. They tend to have experiences where they have both an anxious and avoidant side to them, but their overarching theme is while the anxious attachment cell had that real or perceived abandonment and they cope by always trying to maintain closeness, dismissive avoidance usually had more neglect. So they cope by always trying to stay hyper independent and not really shake anything up and always sort of stay within this kind of cookie cutter framework of being independent, doing their own thing. Fearful avoidance, their overarching theme is big T trauma. So they're the ones that usually grow up with a lot more trauma, a lot of chaos around them, and they end up in situations. And let's just go through some like common examples that you would see, you know, as an example, maybe a parent has, is an active addiction or is an alcoholic or a parent who has a lot of their own mental health issues growing up, these types of things. And basically what this causes is children to grow up in an environment where they never know what they're going to get. So it could be, let's say mom is an alcoholic, let's pretend. And let's say one day she comes home and she's had a few drinks and she's in a good mood and she's nice and she's loving. And so the child's like, oh, let me get close to mom. Mom is safe today. Okay. I love mom. This feels so nice to get this closeness. But then another day she's had a few extra drinks and now she's angry and she's kind of cruel and she's mean and she's really unpredictable and scary. And so a child, their wiring, their conditioning about love is love is sometimes a really good thing and sometimes a really scary and unpredictable. And so you'll hear things like I had a client once and she said, I could tell by the way that my mom closed the door when she would come home, I would be upstairs in my bedroom and I would know, should I run and close my door too? Or should I leave it open? Like basically what happens is children in this environment learn to become extremely hypervigilant. They learn every micro expression and change of body language and tone of voice. And they learn to internalize all these things and basically try to predict other people's behavior. So if the anxious person always trying to get closeness. We have the avoidant person always trying to maintain distance and keep their safe space. And then we have this fearful avoidant who's like, let me notice every little thing about you so I can predict how you're going to behave and show up. And they end up as adults being very hot and cold. So they end up being anxious sometimes if somebody's far away and they're like, oh no, come back, get close. But then if somebody's too close, they're like, oh, get back. You're too close. Like I, this is too much vulnerability for me. So they pinball back and forth a lot. And this is what I was growing up. This is my attachment. That's how I got into this work is really like discovering and diving deep into like, how do we heal this? Because you're not just stuck with your attachments all you can change these things. And so you'll generally see that they're the very hot and cold partner in relationships, push and pull. And they people play sometimes, but then they also set really extreme boundaries other times and they kind of move back and forth along that continuum. I don't know that we have one of those. Do you think we have one of those? No, I don't think so. I don't think we have one of those. I think that, again, talking about where I am in my life right now, I made a decision that I was, because no one has a perfect childhood. Yeah, exactly. I don't care what zip code you come from. I don't care how successful your parents are, or if they're common everyday laborers or whatever. I don't care what it is. no parent gets it right 100% of the time. Exactly. Yeah. But what I made a decision about, and this only came in the last two years for me, is that I would rather spend the rest of my life fixing me than the rest of my life blaming you. Yes, 100%. So I'm not going, I don't want to do that anymore. Because first of all, if you fucked me up that much, why am I giving you any more of my time? Yeah, yeah. Let me fix what you messed up so that I don't keep bringing it down on the people that I claim to love and let you sit over there and do continue to sit in that shithole that you created. I don't have to come sit with you anymore because as an adult, we get to decide who we share our time with. I no longer wish to share my time with anyone that is looking to steal my joy, steal my peace. and most importantly for me, not believe that I deserve either one of them. Yes, absolutely. That's beautifully said. And I've learned over time that, so first and foremost, like what I teach is like radical accountability. I always say to people, it may not be your fault. Like maybe you grew up with a parent in active addiction and that was hard. It may not be your fault, but it's your responsibility. Only you can fix it. Only you can do that work. And I really believe that the best gift every parent gives to their kids is their own best version of themselves. Because that's what really imprints a child. that's what it's modeled to children more than anything. So that's really important to, to recognize. So we go into, um, pillars of healing, but I, but I also think for people who are listening and watching this podcast that in, in your book, you talk about this. It is not just a parent child relationship, but it can be friendships. It can be your partners, your life partners. It can be familial relationships. It can be just friendships. I mean, this is not just tailored to one particular kind of relationship. 100%. So your attachment cell affects every relationship in your life. It affects how you show up in friendships, even workplace relationships out there. Because it's whoever you're closest to, right? The more proximity, the more your attachment cell shows up. You probably all have seen, right, where you know somebody at a higher level and you can't really tell where they're at. But then you know somebody deeply like your children or your closest friends or your family members. And you're like, oh, I can tell what attachment cell they are. Right. Because our attachment stuff shows up the most in those particular cases. But what you'll see, which is really interesting, is if we're not doing the work, then we're going to keep bringing those patterns in and they're going to be on repeat. So the things that trigger us, I believe, are showing us to ourselves. It's like, hey, showing you what you need to heal within you. The things that where you're finding yourself blaming and going through those painful cycles of getting frustrated and angry, it's like, well, then why are you in that dynamic? There's something in you that needs to be healed or looked at. And so that's a big part of what we go into in the healing. So a question I had was what attachment styles, parenting work well, pairings work well together. What attachment styles, pairing work well together? It's a great question. This is one of the biggest questions. Because that's for people out here looking for a partner or looking for a friend group or looking for a job. I mean, that relates again to just all walks of life in every relationship. Yeah. So securely attached people usually end up with securely attached people. This is a really interesting part of this. So like I mentioned earlier, subconscious mind runs the show. It's on our conscious analytical mind. That's like three to 5% of all of our beliefs, thoughts, emotions, actions. And our subconscious mind at the end of the day is very survival wired. So it wants to maintain what's familiar because it equates familiarity to safety and less survival. Exactly. So securely attached people often end up with other securely attached people, right? Because they treat themselves and each other in these sort of healthy, communicative, open ways. That's what they're used to. That's what's familiar. So that's often what they choose. It's not always the case, but that's what you're going to see statistically the most. What's really interesting is that anxious and dismissives often end up together because what's most familiar to you is the way you treat yourself. So if you look like, let's say somebody's anxious, right? If somebody's anxious in relationships, they are kind of dismissing and avoiding themselves. They're so busy focused on everybody external, outside of themselves that you could be like, oh, I want my partner to be, you know, really anxiously, you know, attached to me and super available to me. You could say that consciously, but subconsciously what's most familiar is people who may be a little bit dismissive and avoidant because usually anxious people are very dismissive and avoidant of their own feelings and needs and boundaries until they start plugging in and doing the work. So I'll often see that. And interestingly enough, dismissive avoidance are often kind of in a bit of an anxious relationship to themselves. They're like, do I have enough time to myself? How am I doing? Do I have enough space? And they're kind of checking in with themselves a lot of the time because they struggle to co-regulate with others. So they need that space and distance to kind of re-regulate themselves in that way. So you'll generally see those types of pairings, fearful avoidance, that last attachment cell, they often end up with other fearful avoidance, but they can end up with anxious or dismissive avoidance as well. So usually secures together, insecure attachment cells together. But I really believe the reason that this happens beyond, you know, just the fact that we get into relationships for love. I think relationships are also a powerful tool for growth. And what's really interesting is exactly what each attachment cell needs to heal in the relationship ends up being the best thing that they each need to heal themselves, their own conditioning. So for example, somebody anxious, they need to learn to honor their own needs, have their own boundaries, speak up and actually like allow themselves to rely on other people, not just people please all the time. Dismissive avoidance need to practice being more vulnerable, coming out of their shell, speaking up to a little bit about what their feelings are so they can co-regulate. And they compromise this. And so each person needs to do that for the relationship. But that actually just happens to be what's very healing for yourself. That's so interesting. And where do you feel that we fall? What? How do you feel that you and I align? Do you feel that one of us is more anxious? Well, we just said you are the more anxious and I'm the more dismissive. That makes sense because she's very rude to me. Oh, my gosh. That's not true. so how does this so how does those two work based yeah so they'll often end up together in relationships but like there's so there's five pillars of healing so first pillar is to rewire your triggers i can give like an exercise for how to do that at the end that's three steps but takes a minute to go into um sex always works for us so the triggers are these wounds right these these ideas that you're going to be abandoned alone excluded disliked rejected those are the big ones for anxious, for dismissive avoidant. Those big triggers are often the fear of being seen as weak if you're too vulnerable or the fear of being trapped or helpless or powerless in the wrong situation or the fear of being defective. If somebody criticizes you, it can be taken. Do you feel, do you feel those things? Yeah, definitely. These are, I feel like these are us. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so you'll see those things. So the first step, rewire those, those wounds and you can leverage it because you're not born with these. These are just things that get conditioned into your subconscious mind. Exactly. And so you can leverage repetition and emotion and imagery and things that we can get into in a minute to change those. The second pillar is both people need to learn their own needs in a relationship and then actually share them with each other. So anxious attachment styles, a lot of their needs is they need to feel validated and approved of because they're trying so hard. So they need to feel like that's seen and recognized. They also need to feel like there's a sense of certainty So anxious attachment styles don respond that well to like if somebody cancels plans it you can handle it if somebody like but we make plans in two days at this time But if somebody just cancels plans and you don know why or you don know when you going to see them again or these types of things that uncertainty doesn go well for anxious attachment cells So they really like that certainty, validation, approval, reassurance that everything's OK or that people think that they're OK or that everybody around them is OK. They also need to feel like they are wanted and like they are a priority to people in their life. Like that's really deeply important to them. And then dismissive avoidance, a lot of their needs are to feel appreciated and acknowledged is a really big thing. That is a big thing for you. Yeah. And it's not in this grandiose way, like you're the best wife in the world. It's in these like, hey, I really noticed how hard you worked the other day on that thing we were doing together. Thank you. Like, or hey, I really noticed you got up early and really made everybody feel welcome and comfortable. Thank you. Like those types of sincere acknowledgements and appreciations for really clear things. Dismissable avoidants also want to feel supported. So they do really well when somebody's like looking out for them, trying to make them feel supported or checked in on. That goes such a long way. And they also want to feel in relationships like they can have a little bit of their own freedom and autonomy and space to do their own thing sometimes tends to be quite important. And then the last big thing is dismissal avoidants definitely want to feel understood. Part of it's because dismissal avoidants struggle to articulate themselves and their own feelings and their own needs. So they're kind of hoping somebody will come along and do that with them. And then the biggest need for all dismissive avoidance is acceptance. They want to feel like there's non-judgment. They feel safe around people who are kind of like, you know, if you meet a friend, for example, and you're making a new friend and that person's out there gossiping about a bunch of people and being really critical and judgmental, that's going to be something that like dismissive avoidance want to run away. Yeah, she doesn't like that. She doesn't like that at all. And because they don't want to feel like there's this judgment and they want to feel like, oh, I could be accepted. I can be myself. that really makes them feel safe and comfortable. It's like the oxygen, like the lifeblood of relationships. And so what's funny is that most people get into relationships and they try to give their needs to the other person. So you might try to give validation or make sure that you feel like you're a priority and that you're approved of and you're wanted. And that would be what you would need. But you actually might need something completely different. You might want more empathy and acceptance and understanding and support. So learning each other's, most people have heard of like the five love languages. Needs are so much deeper than love languages because they're so much more specific. And if we don't know that language of needs for one another, then oftentimes we love in a way that the person's not fully receiving and vice versa. And then it creates these problems in our relationship. So our second pillar is knowing our own needs, actually meeting our own needs so that we can get in the habit of like regulating ourselves better. But then being able to communicate those needs to people in our lives is pillar number three of five. Well, you know, one of the things with me is that I've always been very self-sufficient. I take care of what I need to take care of. I buy my own clothes. I go buy whatever I need. I make sure that I've got what I need. And Julie would always be, well, I can't buy you anything because you've already bought it. I think for me, understanding that was that if I took care of me, I didn't have to worry about being disappointed. Yes. Yeah. And that's his piece, right? of going, well, I'm going to just make sure that I don't have to rely on anybody or be a burden is usually a bit of a fear or take up too much space. And then also I can kind of control it. Sometimes things to attach themselves want to feel like the sense of control over things so that they don't feel let down and rejected and abandoned and hurt. And so it's a bit of a coping mechanism, but part of the healing as well as being able to be like, Hey, here's what I need sometimes from this relationship. It looks like X, Y, Z, our fourth pillar of healing. And this goes a really long way is we have to regulate our nervous system is the fourth pillar. But when we go back to communication, um, what happens a lot is people who are insecurely attached growing up, they don't learn proper communication. This was like a huge thing for me when I got into this work 15 years ago, like you really see this. But one of the first things I get people to do when they're trying to communicate their needs to each other is the first thing is positive framing. So most of us go through life and we communicate from negative framing. I used to have people come in to work with me and they'd be like, oh, my husband never listens to me. Or, oh my God, my wife never listens to me. And they'd say that. And I'd always be like, oh no, that's not good. But over time, what I learned is, wait, they're just not communicating properly. And so we spend a lot of time criticizing instead of communicating. So we say, oh, you don't care about me. You're never spending enough time with me. Instead of saying, hey, I feel disconnected. I want to spend more time together. Can we plan a fun date night this weekend? Can we do? And so positive framing is saying what you do want to have happen instead of communicating from what's not taking place. Because when we say what's not taking place, somebody just hears it as a criticism and right away, they're just going to shut down because in childhood, if you got criticized, you brace for conflict. So we end up in a situation where if we negatively frame people shut down, they don't hear what we're trying to say. So that's the first really important piece of communication. Savannah taught me that. Ah, beautiful. Savannah taught me that because I would always be, I would say, and then you did this and this. And I could literally see the lights go out in her eyes when I would be talking to her about something. I would be criticizing things. I could see that it was almost like the drapes closed. And so I learned early on with her that she was not one that you could do that with. you had to approach her differently and you had to come at her the way that you were talking about. Yeah. And it's beautiful that you've noticed that, right? That you have that attunement to notice that and see. And it's so interesting because kids shut down when they get a lot of negative framing. And so saying what you do, I always say to people behind every criticism is a need. And I would get people in our program behind every criticism is a need. Yeah. And I would just get people like in our programs, part of our exercise. And one of them is like, just spend 30 days, practicing on a daily basis, just top of mind, going in and every time you catch yourself criticizing, reframe it, say it as a need, say it as a need, because you actually rewire your brain to start communicating like that. And I can tell you, like, you know, I've seen so much evolution in people's relationships from doing that. But even just as a person who started this, I used to think like, oh, nobody cares about me. Nobody hears my needs. But when I started positively framing, I felt so connected to people in my life. I was like, whoa, people show up for me so much more. So it's a really beautiful gift to give to yourself and to other people. So that's a big part of communication. Another big piece of communication is I always say to people, paint a picture for what it looks like. I remember having a couple come in to work with me at one point in time and it was husband and wife. They sat down and they discovered that the wife was feeling really unsupported. She was actually dismissive avoidant. She didn't feel really supported in the relationship. They went home that week and they said, okay, she's going to get some more support from her husband. They came back the next week. And before they even sat on the couch, the wife was like, my husband didn't support me. And I looked at him and his face went like white. And he was like, what do you mean? I took out the trash. I did the dishes. I took, you know, I did all these things. And she was like, well, I needed like affirmation. I needed like encouragement and I needed appreciation. And that's what support was for her. So I always tell people we're going to have miscommunication when we do start saying what we need. Support will look like taking out the trash for one person and giving appreciation and acknowledgement for somebody else, be specific, say, give a strategy, paint the picture. I'd also see sometimes in anxious, dismissive relationships, the anxious person is like, oh, I want more time together. And the dismissive avoidance is like, okay, you need 10 minutes right now to sit together. Meanwhile, the anxious person's like, no, I need like a three hour sit down where we catch up and chat on a weekly basis. And so we have to really paint the picture. That looks like a date night. That looks like us, you know, getting that, that sincere appreciation and acknowledgement. And when we really paint the picture, all of a sudden we actually get heard in our relationships. We positively frame, we paint the picture. Now people are hearing us. We're hearing each other and honestly connection and intimacy, emotionally and relationships, physically, everything just skyrockets when we start tweaking and really improving the quality of our communication together. So I think that, you know, I don't feel like that I'm one that has to have you say to me, thanks for taking the trash out because you're not because you're anxious right but I also don't think that someone who's what am I again I'm anxious anxious I don't think that for someone for me that's anxious I can't be with someone that's got to be honey you know I did your laundry today um honey you know I put soap in the shower okay well I'm glad you did that you're grown you know well i'm glad that you told me that but like i'm not one of those people that's gonna be like oh honey thank you for putting that soap in the shower and i noticed that you folded my underwear so tell me why i want to know why yeah so why exactly why is because you probably want that more like validation hey you look good when in your new outfit you look yes i need her to tell me these things so you're it's the way that we give and receive love yours are just a different language of needs and yours and you probably need a little bit sometimes of like oh yeah she needs me to tell her that she did the laundry can you be uh anxious and dismissive avoidant if somebody thinks like anxious and dismissive they're usually the middle one they're usually the fearful avoidant where they go back and forth hot and cold a lot i think that sometimes people think um if you're dismissive avoidant you never feel anxiety no like dismissive avoidance are not robots they feel anxious but they deal with their anxiety but always retreating so when they feel anxious they'll go in their shell more create more space more distance that's how they feel a sense of control whereas fearful avoidance are usually the partners in relationships that are more volatile they they become hot and cold they get angry they're the roller coaster relationships they have this huge fear of being betrayed trapped helpless powerless i don't think you've said that about me shut up So what you'll see is just like, you know how you said, oh, you know, I don't need to say, oh, you thank you for doing the dishes or thanks for putting the soap in the dispenser, the laundry. That's that doesn't feel like that's a big deal for you because you don't need that. Right. So it's like not your language of loving and giving and receiving needs. But you probably don't need to hear, oh, your outfit looks amazing all the time. Like that's probably actually lower on the totem. She actually does. But it's probably lower on the totem pole than sincere appreciation and acknowledgement for the things that you're doing in the way that you're showing up. And so it's a matter of like part of when we love is we want to love. I always say to people, sympathy is loving as we would need to be loved. Empathy is loving as the person that we know as they need to be loved. I remember having this woman. She was so sweet. She was young. She came to work with me. Her and her husband or her and her fiance came to work with me. and they were anxious and dismissive. And I remember she came in and she said, you know, I'm having a bit of a hard time. Can you believe this? She said, my dismissive avoidant partner, we were in a fight, we weren't working it out. We just couldn't seem to like come to, it wouldn't come to fruition. We couldn't resolve it. And he said, I just need the rest of the afternoon. It was a Sunday afternoon. I just need the rest of the afternoon to take some space. And she said, so I thought, you know, he's upset. I'm gonna cook him a nice meal and I'm gonna write him a note and I'm going to surprise him and show up. And, you know, she was loving as she would need to be loved in that instant. It didn't go well for her. She came to see me on Monday morning and it didn't go well because he was like, you're not respecting my need for space. I said, I just need space. And then we talk tomorrow. And he really needed that. They were going through a hard time and she was loving him through sympathy. She was loving. She would love. Exactly. She would love for him to show up and surprise her unannounced with a meal and a note, right? That's what she would need. So she was loving like that. She wasn't seeing him yet as he was. She was seeing as she was. So the art of this, because when I listen to that, I think about she made this meal for him selfishly because that's what she wanted to have done for her. Yes. And he had already placed the boundaries of I need a minute. Yes. And because she wanted this, she was now pushing that over on his own. Exactly. And she was so sweet. Like she was sweet as pie. Like she was not coming from a malicious space. She just, we all tend to give love as we would receive love. But I also believe that the road to hell was paved with good intentions. And so, uh, you know, I feel like that for me, when I say I just want to be left alone, leave me alone. I want to lay on my bed today. I want to veg out. I want to watch, you know, whatever I'm watching. I want to be on my laptop. Just leave me alone. and then I constantly get, let's go do this or don't you want to go do this or dad, I need you to come and do that. And then I end up doing something that I didn't want to do to begin with. So how am I supposed to enjoy what I didn't want to do to begin with? Because I felt like I was forced into it. Can I be really honest? You didn't hold your own boundary. So that would be that somebody says, can we do this? Can we do this? And you say, Hey, honey, I love you. We'll do that another day. Today's my day to do this myself. And honestly, the boundaries that we tend to, and this is one of our pillars of healing. She's offended by those boundaries because, and so are my children at this point, they, everyone in our, in our family is offended because I have now started creating these boundaries. And when people start, and honestly, it's actually one of the big things that anxious attachments have as sort of a challenge to overcome in their relationships, because you said that you sort of mentioned this before, which is that people are used to you being the people pleaser. People are used to you always saying yes. So all of a sudden they're like, wait, do you still care in the same way? Why are you changing towards me? But that's why it's really important to say, hey, I'm doing the work. We get people to do this who are anxious in our programs. I'm doing the work. I am here to start setting my boundaries. I realize that this is how I'm going to show up as my best version of myself. And sometimes I need a little bit of boundaries to do my own thing. And then when people, you've kind of forewarned them. And then when people come in and say, dad, let's do this. Or honey, let's do this. you're like oh you know what that sounds really fun you can be validating and reinforcing that sounds really fun that would be great not today today is the day that i'm going to hold my boundaries do my own thing i really need this and that way you're honoring yourself but you can still be kind to to what the person or people around you are asking right you know like i have i don't enjoy being out in public yeah yeah i don't enjoy that i don't enjoy large crowds I just don't enjoy it and I don't like committing to showing up to every event that's out there or every dinner that we're invited to or whatever yeah that's a problem for her I am more as she says anti-social she's more social you know she's like Todd we've been invited to this don't worry don't worry I've already told I've made an excuse for you because she knows that I don't want to do it. But then she gets angry because I don't want to do these things. And maybe because you're not sharing that it is as important to you as you may be let on sometimes. And so it's a discussion, right? So if I were to say to you, like, what's the maximum you could give in that area without feeling like it's self-sacrificial? What's the maximum you could? So let's say, and this is obviously directional. It may change based on the month or if you're extra busy or have a lot of commitments. But but like what would be the maximum that you could give to make a compromise in that way? Would it be going up to one thing a month, two things a month? What would feel? You know, to be honest, 100 percent honest, I don't have to go anywhere. Yeah. Because she's in the house with me. Yeah. My kids are at the house. They come. But I think what she said to go out to go out is that that's not what you need. Right. But this is what I need. Right. Exactly. So it's this, it's this compromise that, okay, we were invited to this dinner, to this opening of this restaurant. You know, it's something that I would have enjoyed doing. How much can you do and still not feel like, again, I think it's a, becomes a power struggle for him as well too. I don't think, I don't think it's a power struggle for me, Andy Muller. Yeah. I just think that it's, it's a thing that causes me to feel very anxious. Okay. So, and see how like beautiful it is to say that. because you're like, oh, I feel a little anxious about it. And so now it's like there's more context. It's not, there's a lack of care for your interest there. It's a little bit anxious. And can you see at the same time how, for your lovely wife, that this is a really important thing? Like it sounds like that's something that is social connection and community. It might be important to you sometimes. So is there a part where you could make a step in that direction? And what would that look like? Could you do it once a month? Could you do it every two weeks? I can do it whenever she wants to do it because I can force myself to do it. But when I start to do that, I start feeling like here I am again, pleasing, which is opposite of something that I need to be doing to protect my own peace. Good. So I have that struggle with that. Excellent. So notice the difference between pleasing would be it's a pattern. It's ongoing. You're always self-sacrificing. Compromising would be that you talk it out in advance and you work to take a step forward, knowing that by you taking a step forward, you're meeting your needs. And then in turn, she's going to come and meet you partway. So I want to hash it out for a second if you're open to it. So is there something that you feel like you could commit to where obviously there's a part of you that's making that compromise, but you know that, okay, I'm going to do this maybe once a month or once every two months, once every three months, whatever it might be, or once every week. I'm curious what you think you could commit to where you know, this is me showing up for my wife without it being, oh, I'm now expected to do this all the time. Because what's worse is when we don't hash it out and have the conversation. And then you get frustrated over time because you feel like your need isn't being met. You feel that frustration. Then you kind of pressure yourself into having to go against your will. It hasn't been talked about. And now you go kind of with a chip on your shoulder. You're a little bit frustrated going. It's better to just like have this sort of game plan in advance. So I'm curious, like, what could you commit to knowing that I'm only going to have to do this once a month. Once a month, I can be super present. What would that look like for you? It'll probably be once a month. Okay, beautiful. But you know, I think this goes back to talking about like your childhood. I think it triggers something in me because my mother was never validated. My mother, what she wanted to do was never important. You know, where she wanted to go, if she wanted to travel or if she wanted to do something that was never important. Yes. You know, it was always my father's schedule, what he wanted to do. So I think it's part of that triggering what I grew up seeing. I'll tell you a brief story to touch on this because this is so important. So I, this is one of our pillars that, that wound, that core wound pillar that I talked about. So we bring these triggers into relationships from the past. And I remember I was running, this is like 15, 14 years ago or so. And I was sitting and it was one of my first years of working with couples. And this couple came in and it's a husband and wife. The wife starts talking about how her husband leaves the laundry on the floor. And I was like noting something down. and I look up and her hands are shaking with rage. She's so mad that the laundry's on the floor. And I look at the husband and the husband is like crouched like a little kid. And I'm sitting there watching them talk about laundry. And I'm like, she's like nine out of 10, maybe 10 out of 10 enraged. He's like really sad and upset. And I asked them, I said, I said to her, I said, okay, well, there's no way they're this angry about laundry on the floor, clothes on the floor. So I I go, what do you make it mean about you when the clothes are on the floor? And she said, well, he doesn't respect me. I keep asking him, you know, to do this. And he doesn't hear me. He doesn't listen to me. He doesn't respect me. And she had a big wound from her father feeling disrespected. And I asked him, I said, when she starts getting angry, what do you make it mean about you? And he said, well, I feel like she doesn't love me because I try all these things. And I try to, you know, show up in all these ways. And she gets so mad about something so small, just clothes on the floor. And so here are two people arguing about feeling disrespected and unloved and they trying to solve the problem by talking about clothes on the floor Yeah that why we can get And so those are our wounds So notice how in your situation you said anxiety I want to come back to that But you actually said, you know, I felt like I wasn't what I want to do isn't a priority. And I'm curious what you make that mean about you and just whatever comes up. Like if what I want to do and the things that are important to me are a priority, what do you make that mean? Well, I think it goes back to just feeling unappreciated and appreciated. I think it comes back to worthiness. Yeah. You know, I think it comes back to just feeling seen. You mentioned that feeling really seen in a relationship. Okay, beautiful. So when that doesn't happen for you, it's not just about the social event at a high level. Right. It's about that. I want to feel seen. Right. I want to feel like my time is worthy to the things I want to do feel are worthy as well. And so these are three core wounds, unseen, unworthy, and I don't matter or I'm not important. And so I hear that maybe when you ask to do a social event and if that doesn't happen, that's actually what comes up for you is those feelings. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's her feelings. Are these feelings that she has taken on because of her childhood of seeing her mother that way? Excellent question. So there are feelings that come from the wounds. So those are core wounds. But we can rewire those wounds to come into healthier relationships. So we'll understand what she's saying is things that you experienced and saw in your childhood. Those are your ones. Right. Exactly. Those are not those are your ones. And I always give people this analogy of like the bear in the woods. If you go into the woods and you see a bear and the bear chases you and thank goodness you run away and you're safe. But you have to go back into the woods the next day. Well, what does your mind do? Your mind's like the bear. You hear the trees move and you're like the bear. You're bracing for the bear. So something we all do, every single one of us as human beings. But of course, even more so if we have insecure attachment from childhood is we project out these wounds onto things. So while that situation may still be something that you just need as a person that's important to you, it's going to sting a little extra when it doesn't happen because your subconscious mind says, oh, we're not getting our needs met. What do we make this mean? We project out that scenario again. And it's like, oh, my gosh, well, I feel unseen and unworthy and like I'm unimportant. And so it's a really so then the dance becomes how do you meet the needs, but also rewire the wounds so that we have a more balanced relationship to the situation so we can talk about how to do that. But I'm actually really curious for you first to just come full circle is that's what you feel when when the social event doesn't happen or you don't go to the social event. What do you make it mean when you have to go to the social event? Because I actually sense that there's something there for you, too. I just feel like that. The people that matter to me the most, I'm already with. Yeah, that's my that's Julie and my children. And now I'm I feel like that I'm on television. I'm giving I'm giving you everything that you expect me to give you. Even when I'm sad on the inside, I'm still making you laugh. I'm still making you for 30 minutes. I'm making you forget about the pain that you're going through or the sadness in your life. and I'm sacrificing my own piece by covering that up, by making you think that, you know, I'm funny and whatever. So I don't want to feel on. When the lights go off, I want to go off. Okay. And I feel like that when I walk into a room, now it's time to be on again. Okay. And so when you're forced, forced to do that, obviously you're not forcing, but it feels probably like that. Do you end up feeling kind of helpless in the situation? I become angry. Good. So you've become angry. And what do you make that mean about you when you have to go? It builds resentment in me because I feel like that I'm now being forced to do something that I don't want to do for people that I don't care about and that don't care about me other than to get a photograph or to say that they did this or whatever. You know, it's crazy because 28 months at this prison camp that I was in. Yeah. I didn't have that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have that. I had the guys that I worked out with, you know, we cut up, we laughed, you know, did our thing. That was bad. There were bad moments of that, but I didn't have to worry about, you know, all the cameras. Yes. I didn't have to be on. And that was the thing that, that I truly believe helped me heal a lot. Wow. That makes a lot of sense. It helped me heal so much because we were all wearing the same clothes. We were all eating the same food. Well, not all of But, you know, it was in general, we were all basically equal. And I loved that equal playing field. I didn't have to walk into a room to where I'm looking around to see who am I competing with tonight? Who's going to who's going to win this if we don't win this? You know, and where's all my kids? Because their kids are here. So I need to know where my kids are. Are my kids prettier than their kids? Are my kids dressed better than their kids? Are my kids behaving the way that they need to be behaving? I don't want that in my life anymore. And it's so interesting because how we heal is through repetition and emotion. It rewires our patterns. And it sounds like you had this period of time to literally stop being on. And over time, the practice of just showing up and being able to attune to yourself and just focus on you for a minute actually was quite healing from that anxious perspective. Very much so. And so I want to go back just briefly for what you make it mean. So is there a sense that like when I have to go beyond, I kind of abandoned myself and that's exactly what it is. Yeah. I feel like that because I already deal with some resentment of everyone takes, takes, takes, takes, takes, takes, but no one's ever leaving anything behind. Yeah. And so I feel like that when I have to go do these things that I'm now putting, dumping everything I have back out on the table. Yeah. But what am I leaving with? Yeah. And so there you are. And you end up feeling like sort of taking advantage of abandoning myself. and so now and now it's like okay well here we are talking about the social event and it's so much deeper than that it's like hey i just want to feel like what i want to do is seen and i want to feel worthy and that i'm important to my husband and that my the things i want to do matter and then here you are feeling like oh my gosh but if i go to the social event i have to abandon myself and i feel taken advantage of by the whole external world and all these expectations and pressure and so now here we are talking about the social event but look at how much deeper it is And then, of course, it's going to be a point of contention. And so part of what we do here is we now work to rewire the wounds and we can go into how to do that so that there's less sting around it, because the wounds are what really make us feel that sense of suffering. And I can share an exercise for how to do that. But then also we learn to meet each other's needs partway where we're like, oh, I now see how big of a deal the social event is. It's so much deeper than that. And I also see how trying the social event is for you. So based on that information, we can now make better compromises in the center, being mindful of what it really means to one another. You know, I realized I was at the ACM Awards many years ago and she didn't realize I've never even talked about this. I was at the ACM Awards in Vegas and I had so much. I can tell you exactly what I wore, exactly where I was. I felt so much anxiety inside of me that I was literally having to go. Wow. And to try and to try to control my breathing. And we were on the red carpet and she was wearing a pink dress and she put her hand on the back of my back. And it was almost like when she did that. I could feel myself coming down. And as nice as that was, and as much as I needed that, and she didn't have any idea what she was doing. I felt resentment versus saying, God, thank you for having her place her hand on me to where I felt safe and to where I knew I was going to be able to get through this event. Rather than seeing it that way, I felt resentment about why am I even here? Why am I forcing myself to do these things? At the end of the day, is what we're doing going to matter in the end? What should we be doing that's going to leave a bigger imprint on this world? And now I just think that it goes back to when this conversation first started. that when we identified who I am, which is something that the world's been trying to figure out for years. I feel like that I could just be with her in our house and never leave. It is my safest space. If I know that she doesn't even have to be right under me. Like I can be in a different room. She can be taking a bath. She can be on the phone with her girlfriends or whatever. I know she's there. And so I think that when she went through her breast cancer in 2012 was the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me in my life. And I believe, I believe that when that happened, that I became so attached. that if I stayed right with her, nothing was going to happen. Yeah. And that's that huge, huge underlying fear of the abandonment, right? It's like, okay, if she leaves me and I become abandoned, then I won't be able to cope. And you know what? And I'll just be a big hoe again. And if I can be really honest, like, and I hope this is okay to say, I'm just going to be really upfront. Anything you want to say on here. Please. But there's this sort of double-edged sword in that. Yes. My whole life has been a double-edged sword. Which is this like, okay, so then I become so loving and caring and I want to show up and I want to take care of you. But then that's weak and I set myself up to be hurt. No, not weak. Not weak. But sometimes that fear of abandonment becomes so big and so loud that you may not, and I'll let you guys tell me, but you may not see what you need sometimes in that. Right. Because that fear of abandonment is like, I don't want to lose her. I don't want to lose her. But then my emotions are so big in that that maybe I forget to see your emotions sometimes too. We absolutely have that. Yes. We absolutely have that. Yes. Because I roll out of fear. Yes. Yeah. And the fear consumes me. Like she'll say, oh my God, I forgot something. I've got to run to target. No, you're not going to target. It's nine o'clock at night. You understand that people are being mugged. You know, you could have a flat. I go through this whole, like we said earlier in this thing, I go from zero to a hundred quick. Yes. And then I get angry over, you have been gone to Sam's, to Costco, to Whole Foods, to Fresh Market. And now you got to leave at nine o'clock because you forgot one thing to hell with it. Yeah. We don't need it. Wait until tomorrow. Yeah. But. And your part of your anger is that you have all this resentment or all this abandonment fear that comes up and something bad happening. And you're dealing with that in your body. Yes. And so for you, it feels like, OK, well, I'm just going to Sam's. Right. That's how she is. and then for you it's this really big you know emotion that you're carrying and it's so deep and and it's from and that's where it's the double-edged sword is you care so much and you're also dealing with so much at the same time that that prevents you from being able to kind of make that best decision and what that healthy balance is at times and so you know i can share something with you that you can actually rewire these things because i'll tell you like these core wounds we We call them core wounds from a cognitive behavioral therapy perspective. And the core wounds, they are the things that hurt us the most. They're the things that unfortunately drive us away from people. Sometimes the people we love the most, they're the things that take up so much mental, emotional real estate that you can end up going through life. And it's like you always have these bears in the woods chasing you, right? That's the analogy. Your core wounds get projected onto things all the time. And so we don't see objectively as much. We see through the lens of our core wounds. And so I can share a three-step exercise just at a high level. It's a good practice to do. It's really easy. It's sort of a starter kit tool that I share. Okay, beautiful. So the first thing is your core wounds are subconscious, okay? So they are not, nobody's consciously waking up saying, I'm going to tell myself I'm going to be abandoned all day long and see how I feel, right? So we have to really engage the subconscious mind in the process. So the first step is to find your wound and its opposite, okay? So if it's, I'm not good enough, I am good enough. I'm going to be abandoned. I'll have connection. If I'm going to feel like somebody is going to get hurt and I'll be unsafe, I have safety in this situation. So we're really trying to start with that core wound and its opposite. Step one. Step two, affirmations. People say, oh, affirmations. Affirmations are BS. I'm sorry. They are like a waste of time because affirmations speak the same damn way. So affirmations are your conscious mind. Okay. Your conscious mind doesn't speak language. If I say to you, okay, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant. You freaking flash an image of a pink elephant. Your conscious mind understands language. It says do not, but it's too late. Your subconscious flash the image. Our subconscious speaks in emotions and in imagery. Okay. So if we're going to try to rewire the wound at the subconscious level, we have to speak in emotions and imagery. This is how we leverage neuroplasticity is repetition of emotion and imagery. Okay. So what we do is step one, I'm not good enough. I am good enough just to keep it really easy. Okay. Or I'm abandoned. I am going to have love and connection. It will stay. Then what we want to do is find 10 pieces of memory of times that we did feel good enough or that the people we love were safe. Everything was okay. We maintained connection. The reason we want 10 is for repetition. Repetition is what fires and wires new neural pathways. Emotions and images are the language of the subconscious mind, which is where the problem exists. Okay. So now we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious in a way that can actually rewire it. Then what we do, step three, is we record ourselves saying this out loud. And we listen back, ideally, in the first hour that we wake up or last hour before we go to bed for 21 days. Now what we're doing is in the first hour that we wake up or the last hour before we go to bed, our brain is producing more alpha brain waves, which means our subconscious mind is more open to taking in information. So now it takes two to five minutes a day. So we're coming up like, let's just say for ease sake, somebody saying, oh, I'm not good enough. I am good enough. I was, I was good enough when I showed up to have this hard conversation three days ago. I was good enough when I listened to this podcast where I'm learning things about myself. I was good enough when I went to that social event. Exactly. Yeah. There you go. And I showed up and I tried and I went out of my comfort zone and I was fine. So we're coming up with these honest pieces of evidence. So they're real. They're not some like just affirmation your way through things. They're real. Every time we think of a memory of these times, all memory is just a container of emotions and images. If you say, oh, your favorite childhood memory is you playing at the beach with your family and you see the red sandcastle or the red bucket that you're making the sandcastle with and the ocean, you see the images. And we've all seen people when they share old memories, they laugh or they smile. OK, so by using memories, old memories of times we were good enough or we were safe or we did have connection instead of abandonment, you're actually speaking to your subconscious mind. So we're like, OK, 10 times we felt good enough or 10 times we had connection. We get the memories, which are the emotions and images. We get 10 of them for repetition. Now we record ourselves saying them out loud and we just listen back for 21 days. And that's actually how we build new neural networks in our brain at the subconscious level. The wounds go away. We actually had, we took 60,000 people. If I'd come through this exercise in our programs, go through this. And people who never missed a day for the 21 days, they listen back to these for two to five minutes a day. They focus on the feelings and the images so that it's really speaking to the subconscious mind. people reported a 99.7% NPS score at getting rid of the core wounds. So these deep feelings and fears and all these things popping up where they're bracing and they're worrying, the frequency went down, the intensity went down, and they were able to return to a more centered space and stop projecting these things like the bear in the woods chasing them all the time. I want you to come and work with our family as a whole. I would love to. I would do that for sure. I would love for that because I feel like that we could so benefit from that. Absolutely. Absolutely. and we go ahead no go ahead I don't want to spend the rest of my life having a trauma response yes that's so well said yeah exactly and that's what it is right and it's like our brain's not doing it to make us suffer our brain's doing it because it thinks there's a freaking bear in the woods chasing you and you're bracing it's trying to protect you but it also causes so much hardship and pain yes and it puts pressure and strain sometimes in the relationships around us when we love people so much and don't mean to but those things get brought in right okay Ty this was absolutely amazing and i am so happy that you came please tell people where they can learn more where the book where they can find you where they can can start to delve in and because we definitely are yes thank you so i'm at personaldevelopmentschool.com um and we have all these online programs there people can go through things um and i'm there in in the school with our students all the time um and so people can go in there they can learn their attachment style There's a free assessment report. Then we take people through these 90 day segments of becoming securely attached by doing the subconscious rewiring work and leveraging that neuroplasticity. And then I'm on YouTube, um, Thais Gibson dash personal development school. I put daily content out there and then on Instagram, which is at the personal development school. And just thank you so much for having me. This has been a blessing because literally I, I knew that to be honest with you, I had put this off because I did not want to get into it. Um, but then Aaron sent me a message. I said, you do know that tomorrow you're going to be speaking with this lady. And so I told you, I said, I, I said, I think you can just do this. She goes, no, we're both doing this. But something that just dawned on me, this is a program that's 90 days, right? Yeah. I would love to see how this would fit within the Bureau of Prisons. Yeah. Because because because, you know, under the first step act that President Trump implemented was these men and women have to do programming in order to reduce their recidivism and to reduce their their date of how long they've been incarcerated or will be incarcerated. And I just feel like because the psychology department within the Bureau of Prisons is for shit. I mean, this is just how I view it. I view these psychologists that are within the Bureau of Prisons as people that could never make it in the real world in a private practice or really do anything great in their life. And I had a different experience. So I actually did what you talk about in the book. I actually did CBT when I was there. So I did have a different experience with that. With a psychologist. Yes. OK. So there was but there was so much more that could have been done. I feel like. And what we do is we take CBT and we make it subconscious because CBT sometimes still is just at the conscious level of mind. Right. So we drive it into the subconscious so it sticks a little deeper. But yeah, like great tool for sure. But you can even bring it a little bit deeper. Absolutely. Would you be willing to explore that? Of course. As far as bringing your program into the Bureau of Presence? I have like a huge heart for just helping and sharing with as many people as possible. I love this. This is something really deep and personal for me. And I just experienced such profound healing doing this work and did sort of 13 certifications after doing a PhD in pastoral counseling and all these different things. And so really bridging the gap on these things is is what I love to share. OK, well, listen, thank you so much. It was such a blessing to have you here today. Ladies and gentlemen, please pay attention to this. I know that you're used to getting an episode to where I'm ranting about the Bureau of Prisons or, you know, June and I are talking about the kids or what's going on in our life right now. But I feel like I put this episode off because I wasn't brave enough to sit and have these conversations. But today has been a wonderful revelation for me to see that you can identify what's going on in our life. So I want you to tune in, pay attention to what this lady is saying. Please follow Ties Gibson. And follow her because it can help to change the dynamics in your whole family. So until next week, good luck and God bless. Thank you.