Jim Cornette Experience Special - From The Files Omnibus

Hello again friends! And you are our friends, the Great Brian last year, you there, we are back on the bus. This time, Volume 1 of From the Files, Jim Cornette's Omnibus, our look into the files, discovering wrestling history with this man, the leader of the Cult of Cornette, Mr. Jim Cornette. And of course, Brian, we are uncovering nuggets never before known about the nonces that once occupied the world of wrestling. And thanks to your voluminous files and my amazing computer-like brain, we pull things out, we talk about them, we reveal these tidbits, it's something you can get nowhere else in the world of wrestling. And boom, and here's just oodles and oodles of it. That's right, the first in what will certainly be a continuing series, let's get to it now, From the Files, the Omnibus. But you're knowing that we have to travel through time at some point, can we do one classic wrestling thing here before we wrap things up? I think, well, not before we wrap things up, but before we travel through time and then reconvene to continue this program that will be seamless in terms of the listener experience. I call it Wrap Things Up because I have to, you know, tie everything down before we, you know, hit the air. But Jim... Time to kangaroo down, sport, time to kangaroo down. If this works, this is a new segment, if this is bombs, this was Jim's idea. Hey, what, huh? The other day I was out, I was smoking a joint, I was hanging out, and I decided to just start going through the files. The files of the wrestling news, which comprise Ring Wrestling, Wrestling Review, Wrestling Monthly, various other publications, as well as correspondence. And I have a file here. This is From the Files. Yes, From the Files. So we'll see if this is interesting because I have not completely looked through it. I just saw that it was thick and filled with correspondence. This is the Christopher Love file. Oh my God. Okay. For those of you who might not know, Christopher Love was the managerial nom de plume and persona of promoter Bert Prentice. And at various points, he was Queen Christopher Love, especially in the LPWA where he managed Laelani Kai and Judy Martin, the glamour girls. And Bert, during his manager days... Honey Love. Honey Love was another persona. Bert was a very flamboyant individual during his younger days and also his manager days. But Bert was gay. And he wasn't even like Ronnie Gossett, where Ronnie Gossett would say, I'm not gay, I'm just friendly. Bert was gay, but he didn't let that get in the way of business most of the time. And he ran great shows. He was the classic definition of an indie wrestling promoter and a hustler and a go-getter. Well, remember, I did... This was after you joined the podcast. I did a show for him or went to a show that he ran. He was on the show. Yeah, down in Jackson. We talked about his operation and everything that he had down there. He was working with the city, running regularly. Of course, he passed away a couple of years ago, but... He won me over because he ripped off Howard Baum and Howard Baum's dad in 1984 and 1985 somewhere in there. Took a bunch of money to help them run shows and left town. And when they opened his briefcase, it was like filled with women's underwear. There was the briefcase that he had left as collateral for the money, right? And years later, he was on social media and Howard brought it up. I hate, that was a real scumbag thing to do. Burt Prentice sent him a check and it cashed. Yes. So he made good on it. So that impressed me. That was actually really classy, I think, after ripping him off initially and leaving him all that underwear. But the interesting thing about this file as I look through things, there's a lot of different addresses and names. Oh, he was all over the place. Burt started music city wrestling in Nashville. He had Ozark Mountain Wrestling in... I can't remember where he was headquartered over in Arkansas. He had a territory in Kansas briefly for a while. He saw me. He was just, he was everywhere. Well, in 1988, Christopher Love was at Box 201. Is it Gredinger, Iowa? Your guess is as good as mine. Well, that's where he was in 1988. This is what yours is. This is 1990. The envelope says the International Association of Independent Promoters, Wrestlers and Fans. The Greensboro... How does that abbreviation break down? The I-A-I-P-W-F. In Greensboro, North Carolina. Yes, he was in North Carolina for a while. Norman Kiteser wrote his reply on here. Christopher Love received your brochure on your 1990 convention April 13 through 15. Unfortunately, since the wrestling news is quarterly, it didn't come out in time. So I could plug it in the next issue before the date as wrestling news 131 won't be out until late April at the earliest. Anyway, for the future, send us info well in advance and we will plug it. Or if you wish something on what happened at the convention and your future plans for organization. I don't know what the hell that's about. Also would appreciate your payment of the $225 that you owe me for the magazines you got from me in 1988. Wow. And here's a letter from the organization. For Bert to send out stuff plenty in advance in those days, he may not have known what state he was going to be living in three months out. I have a letter here on the official letterheader of the International Association of Independent Promoters, Wrestlers and Fans. February 15, 1990. Dear wrestling fan, I have enclosed for you all of the exciting information on convention 1990. Please read it over carefully and I sincerely hope that you will make every effort to join us in Greensboro in April. This will be a dream weekend for many wrestling fans, additional wrestlers that will be at the convention that we did not get the mention in the brochure, including Tully Blanchard, Tim Horner, Hector Guerrero. Now wait a minute, hold on, pause one second. Chris Love at one point is saying Antonio actually managed Tully before Tully went to uh... That's right. Went to Crockett, but go ahead. Did he manage him again at this point in 1990 when Tully briefly... Did he manage him for Vern or where am I thinking of him and Tully in 90? But anyway. I don't know. And the list grows each and every day. There will be fabulous exhibits. And if you would like to reserve a booth for yourself, please call us today. Christopher Love, 1990 convention host. And when they called him Honey Love because that was a thing he did when he was cutting promos and let me tell you this honey. And you know, here comes Honey Love. Convention 1990, April 13, 14 and 15, the Holiday Inn Four Seasons Tower Center, Greensboro, on the front cover, Buddy Rogers, Lucez and Bill Aptor. And then... That was uh... When he was in, I'm going to say it was 1995, 96, because right about the time Smoky Mountain closed down, Bert was doing, I think that was when he was Ozark Mountain Wrestling. He was in Missouri or whoever he was, a boot heel down there. And a bunch of the... You know, he brought Buddy Landell over and the headbangers, Thrasher and Mosh, Glenn and Chaz, he moved them out there at one point. I'm trying to think, was it when they were still the spiders? Maybe I'm confused, but the point is, there was like 8, 10 guys somewhere in Missouri or Iowa working this little small wrestling territory with this little small weekly TV or whatever for Bert Prentice. And suddenly they got up one day and Bert was gone in the town. There was no promotion anymore. They were all living in fucking Iowa or whatever. It started calling around like, can anybody book us so we get the fuck out of here? I have here, this is from 1983, June 6, 83, the postmark. And it has his business card as well as the official envelope and letterhead of Shirley Dillon's Mid-States Championship Wrestling. Two, three, one, five, South 58th Court, Chicago, Illinois. The business card says Chris Love, Event Coordinator. Yes, and Shirley was, Bert loved to find an angel. That when you found a financial backer, both in on Broadway and the carnivals and in wrestling, you were finding an angel and Bert loved to find angels. America's fastest growing wrestling organization, Mid-States Championship Wrestling will bring you the top TV stars available with the best percentage paid per show offered anywhere. Well, no, best percentage, that's a. This is the venue. That's, yeah, that's basically looking for sponsors for spot show type of things. We will pay more in. In those days, if a local group wanted to sponsor the matches of a territory, we've talked about it. They do a 75, 25 split or an 80, 20 split where the sponsoring group provided the building. So the advanced tickets did the, you know, the grunt work of whatever, and they'd get 20 percent of the gate. But Bert would give them bigger percentages, but it was still, you know, 80 percent of Jack shit is still fairly shitty. We also provide top of the line advertisement promotions, including window posters, newspaper and radio features. We will guide you through an exciting promotional event that will want you to make it an annual happening. Say again, this is written. Really? We require no large deposit money in advance. It's like a translation from. And see, I guarantee. Bert even had because Bert was better than that. Bert had people doing this shit for him. If it could, you know, because remember, he could write better than that. The promotions that Bert started doing in the late 90s, especially with Music City in Tennessee and some of the other things he was doing, he had some longevity with and drew some houses and was doing some business. But back in the 80s and 90s, because he wasn't that much older than me. So, you know, in his younger days, he was all over the page. Once again, we require no large deposit money in advance. And with our stellar lineup and your enthusiastic support, together we will make this a gigantic success. This reads like a Ponzi scheme letter or something. Professional wrestling is drawing bigger live audiences now than in the history of the sport. Mid-States Championship Wrestling is a consistent winner at the box office. Depending on the general population of your city or town. Mid-States Championship Wrestling can offer you up to 30 percent of the gate receipts. See, there you go. Not to be matched by any other reputable organization. However, some crooked ones will give you more. When booking a live wrestling show, make sure you are dealing with a legitimate promoter. Check other local organizations for references. We will provide you with excellent references. We'll tell you exactly who to ask about us. The wrestler's photograph here in his copy. Fabulous Mula, the assassin. I don't know who, but it's an assassin mask. The mighty warrior appears to be a little person. Bambi, I never saw her last name before. Montages. Wait, what? You know Bambi, the women's wrestler? Yes. But what's her last name? It says M-O-N-T-A-G-E-S. I've never heard that before. I never saw it before either. And finally, Mr. USA Tony Atlas. For Shirley Dillon's. I don't think Bambi ever used that name. I think he probably may just gave it to her. Well, this is 1983. That's early on. You know, hold on. The other side here, there's a poster. What's this? I know her real name and that ain't it. This is a different organization. And it has the results of the TV taping and a poster. Oh boy. Bloomington, Minnesota, the Carlton Celebrity Room, USA Pro Wrestling TV taping, February 27th, 1984. The results, Todd Cooley defeated Rick Rinslow. That's Wendell Cooley, by the way, because it has his photo here. Seriously, Todd Cooley. 666 defeated Glenn Liskey. Okay, as strange as this may sound, that could possibly be Jungle Jim Star, one of the interns with Dr. Ken Raimi, because I think he worked that gimmick in the central states at one point. Jerry Valiant defeated Bobby Colt. That would have been Guy Mitchell and Bobby, and they were both in Indiana at the time. Bill Ashe defeated Patty Ryan. George Wells defeated Joe Stark. Good Lord. What date was this in 84? February 27th. That's before George Wells got booked by Mid-South when they were trying to replace Dog. The New York Doll defeated Tom Zink. Listen to this fucking match. The amazing Zulu Ron Pope. And Bill Dromo defeated Mike George and Mark Crowell. Tommy Gilbert. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Back up, Mike George, obviously, again. Most famous in the central states, but he wrestled Louisiana, that territory for a while. I don't know who Rodney Crowell was or his partner, whatever. But can you imagine the team of the magnificent Zulu and Big Bill Dromo? Dromo was one of the best big guy workers in the business at one time. What year? Oh, in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, but at the same time, Zulu was the worst big man worker in the business. And this is 10 years later from both of it. In Minnesota. Not like this was a hotbed for this promotion, but anyway, the remainder of the card, again, from Minnesota. Tommy Gilbert drew Bill Howard. Good Lord. Bill Howard was rat a my-ass in a lot of places. 666 defeated Mark Crowell and Mike George defeated Rick Rinslow. The poster here. USA Pro Wrestling featuring wrestlers from around the world. Body slamming. These are the body slamming men you've heard so much about. Who will emerge the USA Pro Wrestling champion? And the photos here. Gary Lawler is spelled L O W L E R. But that's Gary Lawler dressed like Jerry Lawler with a little beard and the at the end. Yeah, look. Yeah. Patty Ryan. Kostya Korkchenko. Oh, my God. Six, five, three hundred pounds. Moscow. Glenn Liske, the amazing Zulu, Todd Cooley. And again, that looks like Wendell Cooley to me. I could be wrong. Tom Zink, George Wells, Joe Stark. Joe, Joe Stark was a Memphis job guide that, again. As I recall, was from somewhere around Missouri down at that end and close to Memphis, this has a very Kansas and Missouri Central States flavor. For something going on in Minnesota. There's a pudgy referee without a name here. Bill Ash, Rick Rinslow. And finally, Bill Ash was from Paris, Arkansas, by the way. And he was famous at that point for making the boys boots rather than wrestling. Go ahead. And like you said, and this is so interesting to me, Minnesota, 84, 666. Dr. Ken Rainey, manager. There you go. Wow. So who was the promoter that was trying to fight Vern Ganya with guys from the Kansas City territory from 10 years before? Dr. Ken Rainey, Reverend Pro Wrestling Manager. Reverend, excuse me, revered pro wrestling manager of such greats as superstar Billy Graham. And now 666 offers $1,000 to anyone who can stay in the ring just 10 minutes with 666. All right. Well, that's this promotion. Again, there's like stuff from all over. So is this working so far? Are you interested in this? I would like to see the show now. Oh, you mean the segment? Yeah, I'd love you to pull things out of your files. I don't know who this is. Cecilia Fontana, Lady Cecilia Fontana. I'm just looks like a woman. Cecilia, you're busting my balls. Here's a picture of Peggy Lee being interviewed by Chris Love. Here's Chris Love early in his career with Sherry Martell in Texas. Photo by Sue Carpenter. Well, here's some really flamboyant ones. Norman, story for magazine. Thanks, Christopher Love. He was sending in his own stories, obviously. Christopher Love, Iowa. Shirley Dillon. Christopher Love, here are the 50 copies of the wrestling news. One 23 you wanted. I'm sending them in return for the story you sent that appears in that issue. As far as additional copies purchased in bulk, the cost is 75 cents per copy for 10 or more copies purchased at one time. Thank you again for your help. I apologize and always being behind in everything recently. Norman Kiteser. And then it's just it's just like almost like a pen pal thing. There's tons of like this is an orange marker. Well, the guys in a lot of cases in those days would try to stay up with the state caught up and in contact with the people that did the magazines because that was the way you got publicity to the wrestling fan base. There was no internet. If you weren't on TV in a particular market, you had to rely on the magazines, not only the newsstand magazines, but the ones that were sold in the in the arenas in various places. I don't know what this is about. Let's see. There's a lot of things attached here. This is from December 23rd, 1986. Bert Prentice. Per your recent letter about not getting the latest issue of the wrestling news, I checked our files and the only issues I can find that you ordered were number one, 20 in April and one, 21 in October. Both those issues were mailed out long ago. As far as I can determine, your previous subscription expired with issue number 24. And these are the only two issues that you purchase from us since that time. A hundred issues ago. Now, you know, it's interesting, too. He's writing this in 86, the Bert Prentice. A lot of the other correspondence from before this and after it is the Christopher Love. Would Norm Piper have ever been known that? Well, the first time that I heard that Bert Prentice was trying to get a hold of me to book me, I didn't know who the fuck it was. And then I found out that it was Chris Love because I had known he was Queen Christopher Love in the L.P.W.A. in 1990. This is almost 10 years later. Bert Prentice is running Nashville. He wants to get a hold of you. Who? But, you know, it changed over a period of years. Whatever the case. And because it is cheaper than writing back and forth, I've enclosed a copy of issue one, 22, which certainly should square us on everything. Per your comment about rumors, I've been publishing wrestling magazines for over 20 years and have no plans on quitting, nor did I ever tell anyone that I was. I think that is just some more of the garbage put out there by a former editor who worked for me, who I caught trying to pull a fast one. Oh, who would that be? In any case, the magazines continue to cost in bulk. That is for 10 or more copies of the same. That's the same thing he said before. I hope that answers all your questions. I apologize for the recent delay. Did he do it on the same typewriter, Norman, that that filled in one of the zeros or one of the O's and dropped a letter every now and then? Here's an address and that is the one here. But this is an address in Birmingham, Alabama now. Highland Avenue, South. Now, here's a photo of Rick McCord, who had a bow tie on. Why do I have this here? Well, they well, it was either in San Antonio or the central states that they try to make some type of male stripper gimmick out of Rick McCord, which I don't think it fit his personality. He was a very nice, polite young man. I have the picture here. July. I don't know why this is in this folder. July 6, 1987. Mr. Keitzer, thank you for your prompt response to my letter concerning the Rick McCord picture in issue one, two, three of the wrestling news. I am anxiously awaiting the next issue of your magazine. Sincerely, Janet Ray Banks. Sedalba, Missouri. Sedalia. Sedalia. It's hard to read what she wrote here. Sedalia has to write around Gus Karris's backyard. So, yeah, this is the kindest. Oh, here's a Christopher Love envelope. Here's the kindest laugh riot that you'll experience every time you go down last alley. Dear friend, this is June 29, 1987. Dear friends, a big hello from Birmingham, Alabama. Things here look great for a B.I.G. summer. I am now working with a very competent and new wrestling organization presented by North American Sports. Who was running Birmingham in 1987? We will be running regular shows. The SADS is Southeastern or Continental is what I'm talking about. We will be running regular shows throughout Alabama. We premiered in Birmingham on Sunday night, June 28. We were at the Batwell Auditorium, home of Fuller Wrestling. We had expected maybe 200 people our first show. Surprise, surprise. We had nearly 800. Fuller sometimes doesn't do that good. Their average is 950 to 1100. Rumors about that threats were made to all boys working the show that if they showed up, they would not work for Fullers. Who cares? Fullers are not doing. He doesn't say the fuller is just Fullers. Fullers. Fullers are not doing that great of business now at all. Also, the supposed sale of this territory to Ron West or anyone else at this time is just a work. Totally untrue. Not one of that. Wasn't that about time David Woods bought it? Not to say they are. You know what? That's right. Not to say they aren't wanting to sell and don't have anyone interested. It's just that no sale has been completed. Then on the side, it says direct all my male to Chris Love, Milford, Iowa, it will be forwarded. Thanks. And then he has the results here of his show. And Birmingham, the Blue Inferno's beat the Duke boys by this walk. Okay, who's the fuck are these already? The Blue Inferno's unless it was Gypsy Joe and Frank Martinez from the 60s in Memphis. That was a gimmick. Well, don't forget about the Duke boys, but also Nikki Leathers, Drew Larry Clark, Mike Jackson beat the Midnight Cowboy in a fabulous match. That's all in cabs. The Masked Nightmares beat Ranger Ross and Dino Manelli. Butch Rhodes beat the Terminator. Wendy Richter beat Joyce Grable. Ricky Gibson and Randy Rose, no contest with Gypsy Joe and Joe Rossi. Holy shit, I was right about Gypsy Joe at least. Wow. This is 1987. OK. Gypsy Joe was even old even then. But Joey Rossi, Lynn Rossi's son, had been retired for over 10 years at that point. And I was surprised to see Ricky Gibson on the show, too. Well, I was Ricky Gibson. That may have been. One of the last matches he ever wrestled, if that was either right before or potentially right after the the car wreck that he had. I can't remember exactly, but he was almost done at that point. Or Randy Rose turned on him in this match. Also, JT Southern was incredible with a win over Goliath. Adrian Street, Pin Ken Timms and Southern and Gibson won a 16 man two ring battle royal. Jesus Christ. How did he talk all these guys into being on the show? He had a two ring battle royal right away. Did it really happen? I guess that's the other question. Well, I don't remember ever hearing why were these people working opposite Ron Fuller at that point? Why would Adrian Street and Randy Rose? Fullers. Have been working opposite Fullers. I think we need we need to back up that this actually happened. Here's a postage due envelope sent the Kites are publishing company. Mankato, Minnesota, 1988. Christopher Love, 904 13th Street, Milford, Iowa. Undeliverable. This was said whenever whatever he said that Chris Love was undeliverable and it came back to the address that Chris Love had said, please send all my mail to this address. January 20th, 88 and closes 124. Wrestling News just want you to know I have another issue available. Also a reminder, there is still due 225 dollars of the stuff I sent you in Alabama in July. Ha, ha, ha. March 88. So this a few months later, Christopher Love per your calls, your check arrived on Saturday. I tried to call you this morning and left the message. I'm sending you the magazines you wanted via UPS this morning. Since your shows are on April 8th and 9th, they should be there in plenty of time. I've any blocked out the word. So I don't know exactly what it was. Three boxes of 75 copies each, which totals 225 copies. The extra 25 copies should more than make up for any spoiled copies or miscounts. Your bill, 150 dollars for 200 copies of the Wrestling News 124 at 75 cents each would appreciate prompt payment. Thank you, Norman Kiteser. Is there any evidence that the bill was paid there? You know, he usually does have receipts. I don't see one here. But that's one of the great things about these files. He kept everything. This is going to be like the the Feffer collection at Notre Dame. Instead of it's going to be the last collection under Nutter Dome. Well, speaking of Nutter Dome, any closing thoughts on this? Christopher Love, Burt Prennis, did this work? Should we do this again? What do you think? I well, I don't think we'll do it again with Bert. I think we've plumbed that well. But yes, we should open up those files every now and then and see who the deadbeats were. Actually, you know, I just follow up real quick. March 21st, 1988 from Christopher Love, Gradinger, Iowa. Dear Norman, received the latest issue of the Wrestling News. It was the best for exclamation points. Thanks for remembering me. I had no idea that you had not gotten paid for the magazines you sent to me in Birmingham. My roommate was to pay you way last August after we sold them. But there were also a lot of things he didn't pay. So I guess I'm not really that surprised. At any rate, Norman, here is a money order for two hundred twenty five dollars. I'm sorry for any confusion. If you like to send me two hundred magazines, I will gladly sell them for you. Is my cost still seventy five cents? Please enclose an invoice. If you wish not to send them, I understand. And then he wrote in hand. This is typed out with an arrow where it says, please enclose an invoice. Send them soon. I am shows four eight in St. James four nine in. Pupstone with zinc. So Burt Prentice was making some big moves in 88 with Tom's Inc. apparently. But there it is. I think now we'll travel through time. Mercifully. Hopefully this was a little bit interesting to everyone. I'll start raving up the motor. All right, Jim, you know what time that is. Good Lord, it sounds like rush hour at Romper Room. It's time to romp on to move on before we get to more contemporary wrestling. A quick classic wrestling topic from the files. I've gone to the files and I pulled something from the files. This is the Brian Hildebrand file. Oh, no. I have a letter here. It's not dated. Jim, which would be the Jim Melby. Here are some pictures. Now, wait, wait, you must explain to the to the new listeners in the audience. The wrestling news files is what you're digging into that you have purchased and curated there from the various estates of Norm Keitzer and all the rest of these folks. And this is a file. Is this a file of pictures that Brian Hildebrand has sent in as a photographer or of himself as a manager or talent? This is the correspondence file. So any of the photos he sent in, some would be filed away. Someone may be in the unfiled area. But this is specifically correspondence. Jim, here are some pictures from Steve Curtis of Lager versus Bach from Louisville, Kentucky. No DQ result. Ref gets knockout. Bach drops lower, groin first on top rope and pins him with feet on rope. By the way, two ends, he puts in pins. I find interesting. Had an opportunity to talk to Bach three hours. It was great. He speaks very highly of you. Take care, Brian. Do you know what? That was the night. Why weren't you shooting in Louisville? Because I was already managing. That was that Brian came down to spend some period of time. I can't remember if it was five days or a week or whatever on the road with me and Memphis. And in Louisville, the main event was Lawler and Bach Winkle. And that's the night that I ripped. I want to say I was managing the Galaxians. That would have been early 1983. So that makes sense with Lawler and Bach Winkle, because. I was managing the Galaxians against Cowboy Jim Dalton and one of the other baby faces. And Dalton had just got there and I didn't know that he had actual blank pistols as part of his cowboy gimmick. And when they introduced him, he was going to fire two of them off in the air. Right. And I've got my back turned talking to Danny Davis and Ken Wayne, the Galaxians. And all of a sudden this motherfucker fires those guns off and I dove out of the ring for a shoot and ripped the seat out of my pants from asshole to appetite all the way, the whole crotch out on the way down and had my head covered up and fucking Danny. Jumped down next to me and said, Hey, stand up straight. Your pants are ripped. The point is, well, here's where I was going with this is Brian Hildebrand took a picture of Nick Bach Winkle pointing at my ripped out seat of my pants and laughing at them at the days in when we dropped him off at night after the matches. And it says here that he was talking to Bach Winkle for three hours. Were you there with him? I don't know if it was three whole hours, but yeah, we rode. Nick over to the hotel and that's probably stopped and got something to eat with him because a couple of times when Bach Winkle came in, that's I've talked about it. I was able to have dinner with him one night at the Kingfish. Not the Amos Nandy character, but the restaurant. You know, we assume everyone knows who Brian Hildebrand is. Brian Hildebrand was referee Mark Curtis, first in Smoky Mountain Wrestling. He was a manager on the Indies before that trained as a wrestler, but famous as a referee Mark Curtis and Smoky Mountain. And then in WCW, maybe the most popular referee. Really, when you think about it, maybe the most popular referee of of a long period of time, he was really the fans got behind him. Yeah, not only with the fans, but with the boys. All the boys love Brian, too. And of course, he was Mark Curtis. He was never Brian Hildebrand. He was Mark Curtis. I think his middle name was Curtis and he said he was always a Mark. So that's how he got the name. It says here, the pictures were from Steve Curtis. Is that I think I don't know whether he that's another assumed name, because he took the pictures. I think I have some that he took that night of me and my guys. But I don't know why he was using Steve Curtis as a photographer, unless that may be a period of time where he was doing a lot of independent managing in West Virginia and Eastern or Western Pennsylvania. And he may not have wanted Mark Curtis to be seen in a byline as a photographer. I have a letter here to Brian Hildebrand from Jim Melby, December 18th, 1979. Hi, I just thought I would drop you a few quick lines and close as a copy of Wrestling News, number 57 and a check for your three stories. I hope you like the way they turned out. I will be using your story on the Huntington card. And the third issue of ring, please read over the enclosed form letter and contracts sincerely, Jim Melby and attached is a receipt. They checked for $50 to Brian Hildebrand from pro wrestling enterprises. And that was top pay for Norman and Jim back in those days. So they must have been impressed with Brian's stuff. How did that compare? You were shooting for all the different magazines. Now, again, you kind of got yourself into a nice position of leverage, but not counting Japanese magazines, the American magazines. And there were still a lot at that point. How did they pay? And I can't speak for all of them because even with my wide reach with the Wrestling News magazine, at first, it was just a mere pitonce. And then I started, you know, Norman would say, can you please shoot a special color slide for me for a center fold or a cover or whatever? Blah, blah, blah. But if you got a check for more than $50 or $100 at any one time for a number of things from them, that was significant money. With London Publishing and Bill Aptor's magazines. They had different deals with the photographers, as I've mentioned in the past. Sometimes they would just pay a photographer a flat fee to go to. If it was Bill Aten was in Florida, well, go up to the Omni and shoot and just send us all the film and we're going to pay you X amount of dollars for this trip. But since I was using them for the programs here, for the concession stands here, for multiple purposes, Bill would just have me send stuff either that he wanted specifically or that he thought I thought that they would be able to use. And if they used the prints, they sent me a check. So they never got my negatives or whatever. But that was, you know, that's still maybe twice as much. I think I got two hundred and fifty bucks for shooting a color centerfold of Lawler for Pro Wrestling Illustrated in 1982. I think that, you know, but it still wasn't ridiculous money. And what about the Japanese mags? Well, the Japanese magazines, I might not make as much from them as I did from from Aptor's, but it was more per picture. I just I'd send. I knew who they liked and I would send those to Koichi Yoshizawa. You know, if the funks came through or pictures of guys with belts or anybody that, you know, was had been to Japan before, was familiar to the Japanese audience. I just send him a stack of prints and they'd send back, you know, checks for not only the magazines that they were in, but checks for two or three hundred dollars. And this was. 1979, 1980, 81. So that wasn't bad. I have a letter here from Jim Melby to Brian Hildebrand, February 5th, 1980. Dear Brian, hi, it was good hearing from you. I'm returning your story on Benelow and Scott. I've never heard of these guys. I doubt if they would be of interest to my readers. Oh, my God. Indirectly, Terry Justice is doing some stuff for Eddie Gilbert for Bill Aptor. He called to explain to me that Eddie had given Aptor permission to reprint stuff from the club calendar. Yes, I did see Darla in Kansas City. We had a few Darla Stags was one of the smart fans in Kansas City, one of the five or six of them back in those days. We had a few drinks with some of the wrestlers and some fans. And you had better believe that I'm all set to taxi down that terminal in Atlanta. Sincerely, Jim Melby, I might exactly share there. I think they were talking about the Atlanta Upcoming Wrestling Fans International Association Convention. That would have been the summer of 1980. Again, we don't want to go too long with this. This is something we could always return to. But going a little forward in the folder here, I have an envelope. Postmark November 30th, 1983 to area close ups. Care of the wrestling news from Brian Hildebrand, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Mount Troy Road. Mountain State Wrestling. Run shows in Morgantown and Terra Alta, West Virginia. Recognize champions. West Virginia champion, J.W. Snakeman Hawk, the World Junior Heavyweight Champion, Zoltan the Great. That's Kenny Jugen and the West Virginia Tag Team champions are Bill Berger and Buck Wheat Jackson. The big news here is the feud between manager Greg Punkrock Mason and Mark Curtis. And at this point, Curtis has two S's at the end of it. Yes. Curtis refereed a few shows and Mason tried to take a few shots at the self-proclaimed Master of Disaster, who is now hearing cheers as he feuds with the manager. Curtis is teamed with Mike Savilly and Buck Wheat Jackson to get it Mason and his protege, Zoltan and Hawk. Other wrestlers in the area, Buddy Donovan, the Beast, the Bulk. The Bulk, yes. The Bulk. He was a giant fat guy. You never would have guessed. Bob Beecher and Rusty King of Pain Jones. That's all the news for now. Sincerely, Brian C. Hildebrand. And that that was actually that was his. Brian Curtis, Hildebrand was his full name. Then he also sent along the results for the card now, Tuna for World Championship Wrestling, November 3rd, 83. Last thatcher beat Joe Lightfoot, Ron Garvin over Paul Ellering by DQ. Road Warriors over wrestling to and Pez Watley. Brett Wayne over Jake, the snake Roberts by DQ and the main event in a cage. Tommy Rich beat Buzz Sawyer, reported to be a sellout. Promoter Gene Dargan is doing great in Pennsylvania with WCW wrestlers. Next card, 1130 in Johnstown. Home of the flood. That was Johnstown, Pennsylvania, that old building. It was probably my least favorite facility anywhere in the state of Pennsylvania. What a dump. And you could see where that town could be flooded real fucking easy with a catastrophe like that. That's one of the things I love about the Norm Kites are magazines, especially from that period. It's the only look you get in a lot of cases of some of the smaller, not even territories, but you want to talk outlaw groups. Yeah, guys running shows with skinny wrestlers and wrestlers you haven't seen in a while. And people you don't know who the hell they are. But there's more reports of that stuff in those magazines. I mean, you read about Randy Savage in there before you read about him anywhere else. Well, and see, that was because Norman, for a lot of that time, with the wrestling news, ring wrestling was a different thing. And later on, he got newsstand distribution. But the wrestling news was primarily sold in the arenas by the promoters. And so he tried to cover as much as he could, because if you didn't have any of the local guys in, even even then, though, you can only go so far like Benelow and Scott, right? We're not exactly. Household names, but the more he covered, the more promoters would want to get. Well, send me 50 of your magazines so I can sell them at the matches. And he would give the. The wholesale price to the promoter and then blah, blah, blah. That's why. That I started doing my own magazine in the Memphis territory because. Originally, he sent magazines to Pat Malone and Christine Jarrett, the wrestling news, and I started sending pictures and stories for them so that the Memphis fans would want to buy those magazines in the arena. But then. Gradually, it became. Well, there's only, you know, four or five stories of the Memphis guys in this particular wrestling news, because he's got to cover, you know, Atlanta and this territory and that territory. So I started doing a little 16 page magazine, championship wrestling magazine that he printed for me. And it was all Memphis guys. And I wrote stories, took the pictures. But then after the first three of them, he said, well, now everybody's buying your magazine, they're selling out and nobody's buying the wrestling news. So how about for the same price, I'll print you. God damn, what was it? It was at a 48 page magazine or whatever with all of the wrestling news advertising in it. And if you'll just sell those so that way, I don't lose my advertising customers. Okay. So that he doubled the size of the magazine and only put in half again, you know, as many pages as I had. So I had all kinds of space to fill up now for nothing extra. But that that was the deal is if if he couldn't sell in the newsstands, he had to cover all of the territories that he could. So the promoters would buy the magazines and sell them at the matches. Well, Jim, we will close this edition from the files with this final thing here because it clarifies something earlier. A typed letter from Brian C. Hildebrand, May 1st, 1983. Dear Jim, once again, Jim Melby, as always, I hope this letter finds you in the best of health, mind and spirits. And Brian still had his spelling issues even then. In other words, I hope that you will be taxing down the runway into the open space of the mind any day now. My my, what college does to a person? Sorry that I haven't written sooner, but school is a bitch. And now I'm finished with it for another year. So now I could sit back and get some articles written and get it sent out. Listen, when I graduate, if I graduate, do you know of any promotion that needs anyone for anything? I mean that as long as I've been in the business, I've done just about everything except suck Barnett. Who he misspells that name. He adds an E at the end. Is is there any positions opening up in the magazine? Keep your ears open, please. I might have an opportunity to be the commentator for the ESPN Pafo show. Huh. Oh my God. But I'm afraid of being blackballed from the rest of the wrestling world. Let me stop there for a second, because this is May 83. I had never heard any rumors or anything about the Pafos getting ESPN. Well, and that's that's what jumped out at me. And because Brian was working with the the outlaw promotions, the end of the early independence in West Virginia, there really was no territory except Crockett shows in West Virginia at that point. And, you know, Western Pennsylvania, Johnstown, Pittsburgh, etc. A lot of those guys would go to work for the Pafos, I see W, even if only to do jobs on TV or just, you know, whatever. So there was some back and forth. I don't know that there was any ever any legitimate chance or close chance or even talks have not been. Uncovered between the Pafos and I'm telling you folks. And again, I love territory wrestling, but their television show was low budget. I don't see how that ever would have been possible at that stage of the game. They were almost ready to go out of business. But was Angelo telling people that he talked to somebody or did he talk to somebody? And he was just telling him his part of the conversation to get people to think, you know, hang on, we got a something big coming. That might be possible. Let me go back to this letter from Brian Hildebrand, May 1st, 1983. I've been reffing for the W.W.A. occasionally, but I have to lay off for the summer due to me being in PGH. Pittsburgh. And plus the fact that I broke my foot moving back. And guess what? Bruiser in his infinite wisdom has me booked for a number of dates in Indiana. What's even funnier is that he won't give me his number. How am I supposed to get a hold of him? I called Colt to tell to Bru what my condition is. And that would have been Bobby Colt, who at the time Bruiser was using as his top heel because they were about to go out of business. And Bobby Colt knew Brian from the Indies. I don't know. I still think I'm going to get heat. So what's up with you? Ha, ha, ha. Done any more traveling than any exotic wrestling areas? Do me a favor. If you see Peggy Lee anywhere down the road, give her my regards. I have included to you the mighty of all editors, a story for any one of your magnanimous. I've been listening to Paul Elling too much. Publications. I've got a lot of stuff from the W.W.A. So you won't have to worry about that area for a while. Well, it's about the time that I get back to what we call work here. So I could dream up a couple more stories, take care and keep in touch. Brian and then in parentheses, Steve Curtis, Steve Cutis. You see, I can't even spell my alias right. P.S. Why don't you come on down the Pittsburgh some weekend? It would be great to see you again. And there it is. That was Brian was always wanting to get in the business. Anything that he went when he would come down and go on the road with me. He did it twice in Memphis when I started and then. You know, later on toward the end of the run, he spent a week down there shooting pictures with us in Louisiana when I. Moved there and then, you know, when I started working for Crockett, we went to Pittsburgh regularly. So I've told the stories about when Brian's dad was a Pittsburgh cop and he would drive, you know, me and Bubba or me and him in that express. To the building, you know, from the airport hotel and then back and we eat at the Eaton Park and goddamn, coming out of the civic arena one night. It was me and Bubba and Brian and his dad was driving. And the people swarmed the car and his dad just got out with that fucking his police gun and held it up over his head. It's like, oh, God, man, oh, shit. People fucking scattered and climbed lamp posts and everything. And off we went. His dad was such a nice guy. Yeah, but old Rage, but he was he was he was a licensed to kill kind of individual up here in Pittsburgh. But but yeah, Brian always wanted to be in the business and he did everything, literally everything, as he said. You see, there's a couple of interesting things there. One is I think a lot of people and I did for a long time, too. I didn't, you know, think about it too much. When you hear the stories about Dominic Canucci's school, you always hear Cactus Jack and Shane Douglas and Brian Hildebrand almost like they came up together. He was already there for a long time. Yeah. He had been doing. I mean, he was one of the trainers, wasn't he? Yeah, because I mean, think about it. You've seen pictures of Mick for a video of Mick Foley's first match in the WWF as a TV jobber. What was that? 85 86 with the Bulldogs 86 or early 87? Probably like that 86, I think. Well, yeah, that's when Mick was just breaking in. Brian had been trained by Dominic. It was you saw those letters there. He'd been since the late 70s. When I met him at the 79 WFA Convention in Memphis, he had already been wrestling and managing on these little independent shows. He had pictures of him. The incredible Bulk guy was like five foot two and 400 pounds. And the exact opposite, he and Brian standing next to each other to look like the number 10. And, you know, he'd already been doing it. So yeah, he was one of the guys and he he knew he wasn't going to be a full time wrestler in any major promotion, but he did it because he loved it. And he kept going to the school so he could work out with all the guys as they came through and came up and everything. So this letter is 1983. He's, you know, asking for any help he can get from Jim Elby or the wrestling news in terms of a job anywhere in wrestling, doing anything other than sucking Barnett. It's interesting, even in 83 people behind the scenes are making jokes and writing about that. Oh, they were doing that in the 73. But go ahead. But you would end up hiring him with Smilkeman Wrestling in 92. And he probably didn't think of it. Well, who knows what he thought. I was going to say, he probably didn't think of it as his big break, but it ended up being his big break. That's a long time from 1983. What do you remember about when you hired him? I mean, was it immediate? I'll drop everything and be there. Oh, yeah. Well, it wasn't an immediate because I wasn't just giving him like a deadline of next Friday. And see, remember, he had still kept doing photography all through the 80s for a variety of the magazines. He was also managing and working on independence. There's tape out there of me and Stan Lane against Mark Curtis and Jerry Lawler on one of Dennis's shows in Cherry Hill, New Jersey from 1991. And he managed bad company. Paul Diamond and Pat Tanaka against the midnight in 89 in that show in Ohio when we were on break from WCW. So he had still been doing everything he could around wrestling business. And finally, when I knew that we were moving forward with Smoky Mountain Wrestling, I called him and I said, hey, for the first three months, we're going to do a weekend where we do a TV taping and then a couple of spot shows because the guys are in town and then we're going to try to do a bigger schedule, but you'd have to move to Knoxville. He said, no worries. And at first, his dad came down with him on those first weekends because his dad was his number one fan and videotaped all of his matches and everything. So his dad and he came down for the weekend trips and then he scouted out places to to live. And when we were ready to go, not full time every day of the week, but fuller time, he was he already was able to move down. Well, there it is. Brian Hildebrand from the Files, referee Mark Curtis. And we'll definitely do this again from the Files, but that was a classic wrestling break. All right, well, Jim, let's do a little from the Files. Uh oh, I got a bunch of papers here. Let me move this. Let me move this. Oh, did I hit the wrong thing? And then it bounced off. I'm still connected. Let me see what I have here. This is the Dave Meltzer file. Let's see. Oh, boy, now from the Wrestling News Archives, from the Wrestling News Archives, for instance, this goes back pretty far. October 3rd, 1982. Dear Mr. Kiteser, I apologize for the paper noise, Jace and everyone at home. I'm enclosing a check for $16, which you can forward to your subscription department to extend my subscription for another year to the Wrestling News Wrestling Magazine. When he told Norman he could forward it to his subscription department, that means Norman would put it in drawer C. That's very true. Thank you for listing my name in your recent magazine per videotape swapping. Although I haven't heard from anyone from Japan. I have made some new contacts in the US. By the way, I hope you can list once again that I would like to trade VHS mode videotapes with fans in Japan, St. Louis, Texas and Louisiana. Right now, I'm receiving weekly tapes from WWF, both shows, Florida, one show, Georgia, both shows, Mid-Atlantic, both shows and AWA one show and can trade any of those shows with anyone who contacts me. As I wrote you earlier, I will be starting a bulletin in January 1983. And I'd like to hear from people who are interested in being correspondence. You have my name, address, etc. with an application on file. By the way, I've noticed your series on the various title histories in the magazine. I have a very complete records of the US title recognized here in the Bay Area, dating back to the mid sixties through 1981. I don't know if you're interested seeing as the title was dropped when Roy Shire stopped promoting, but I could do a very complete story on it if you're interested. The actual belt, by the way, was the oldest in existence as the same belt, which was originally worn by Vern Ganya called the US TV title. In the 1950s. That's the same sentence. In the 1950s was the same belt that Shire's recognized throughout the sixties and seventies. I don't have photos of the guys with the belts. So with the story, however, most of the champions are internationally known competitors, Bill Watts, Fritz Van Erich, Patterson Stevens, Mosca, Morocco, Lonnie Mayne, Myvia, Dusty Rhodes. So I'm sure you have shots of most of them on file. Dave is trying to spend this much time to pitch and sell Norm Kiteser on him writing an article about a defunct promotion that Norman Kiteser probably wouldn't pay more than fifteen dollars for to begin with. But there was no way for Norman to sell any magazines in San Francisco for the Roy Shire promotion, because it was already out of business. And that's why, as we've talked about, Norman wanted to put articles in his magazine about the different territories that were active that would buy magazines from him. Sincerely, Dave Meltzer. It's actually Stam David Meltzer with his address in San Jose, but he wrote Dave above David. P.S. I also have complete records from 67 to 80 of our World Tag title. And I have a response here from Jim Melby, November 3rd, 82. Dear Dave, hi. I would be very interested in publishing a story on the old US heavyweight championship. I'm sure we have the photos and our files of the rescuers involved for illustration purposes. There are some things I need from you first. Please read over the enclosed contract and letter of explanation. Also, I need your Social Security number for payment purposes. If you decide to submit the story, please make sure it's typed and double spaced. Thanks, Jim. You know, they they did take your Social Security number, but the thing is, nobody ever made more than $600 from that company in the course of one calendar year. So you never actually had to report it on your taxes. Well, from January 14th, I have Dave's signed contract here. Dear Norman, enclosed is a debut issue of our publication, Wrestling Observer. Or I should say, Observor, OBSER, VOR. I've filled out the application. I'll be putting out a monthly publication, but would like to warn you ahead of time that our publication date is the 20th of each month. This issue is coming at early, so to speak, just for future reference. The price is one fifty per copy or five dollars for four issues. As the bulletin gets more popular, I will actually lower the price. But for the next four issues, the price will stay at this rate. This is why I'm only accepting subscriptions up the four issues. I wasn't particularly satisfied with this issue, although I do feel it's a damn good debut issue. Things will definitely pick up in the next issue. And coincidentally, I'm pretty sure by April that this will be the best bulletin going. Wait, do you see where we are in 40 years? Thanks for your help. Yours in wrestling, Dave Meltzer, editor. And I have a signed contract here. So he's always been humble. I guess I guess you can look at it that way. I guess so. What is a lot of stuff here? There's a lot here, more than I thought would be here. So bear with me for a moment. Writing to pitch stories. Did you ever have to do that? No, I. It's the basically. The idea, as I said, was that. Norm Keiser sold all the magazines to the promotions who would then turn around and resell them in the arena. So the more content there was on. The Memphis guys, the more that they would sell in the Memphis territory. That's why Norman did different editions. There would be the main wrap around of the magazine that would have some stories that everybody would get, but there would be the NWA East Edition, where it was primarily for the NWA territories in the east or NWA West was out in Texas or the AWA edition. He even did a stranglehold edition for Bruiser's W.A.W. just in the state of Indiana, maybe Chicago. But I would just when I got some pictures or had an idea to write a story on one of the top guys in the territory or somebody new coming in. I'd just write it, put the pictures in a senate to him, and he'd run it because Taney told him to run shit about the wrestlers in the territory so she could sell more books. I never pitched anything. I'd have another letter here. This is after that first one I read back from Jim Melby, November 30th, 1982, from Meltzer. Dear Jim, received your letter the other day. Thanks for the prompt reply. Also, much thanks for your listings for the awards. I'll keep them in the strictest of confidence. Jim Melby sent in his submission for the Observer Awards. I will be sending you our yearbook in late January. I'm pretty excited about putting together a bulletin once again. That's fine about sending programs in exchange for it. One more thing. If you ever want to do stories concerning activities in Japan, I'm sure I could do a good job in that area. I have traveled there in the past and have a decent knowledge of the language. And from this area, I do receive video tapes of all the TV shows and many clippings and magazines through friends in that country. I don't know how regularly you receive photos from Koichi and any of the others, but I can write stories about the various feuds and matches from that area. I think that an interesting article concerned the feud between Enoki and Fujinami versus Rushakamura, Animal Hamaguchi, and Isamu Teranashi. Lots of interesting twists and a very wild bout, not to mention good crowds, have resulted from that. Aside from that, the only real major things going on in the tag tournaments, and I'm sure you're aware of that. I also heard that Enoki and Shinma had bought out LaBelle's promotion in Los Angeles. Oh, good lord. But if you have to hear if they are promoting any shows or anything else, I am sure you know more about that situation than I do. Please keep in touch, Dave Meltzer. Some things never change, do they? That's one of the earliest examples of Dave trying to pitch his expertise in Japanese wrestling. I mean, there weren't a lot of people in America. I would have to think until videotapes that could monitor what was happening there properly. Yeah. Well, and also I wonder how many issues of the wrestling news that Norm Kiteser was selling over in Japan. But that, you know, that's the thing is that the Wrestling News magazine covered a variety of eclectic things that the London publishing the Bill Aptor magazines didn't cover because Aptor and under instructions from the corporate hierarchy, they wanted to put on the cover the NWA champion or Bruno or Masqueras or somebody national that was going to sell magazines or blood, you know, sometimes or whatever. And most of the articles were the big geographic territories with the major population centers, WWF, AWA, Georgia because of TBS, etc. And so Norman filled a niche that the newsstand magazines didn't feel that, you know, he would cover the there'd be something from Amarillo for heaven's sake, you know, and they were underrepresented. Here's a letter from Norman Kiteser to Dave Meltzer as it says here, David Meltzer July 21st 1987. I have written to you several times along with the complimentary copies of the wrestling news I've been sending you, but I have not heard from you in over a year now. Well, so Dave was all fucking sweetness and light sunshine lollipops, rainbows and waterfalls when he was trying to get printed. But now a few years later, he don't want to hear from his buddy Norman. Possibly the address I had was wrong. As I got a notice from the post office today that the last issue of the wrestling news that I sent you was forwarded to the address I am sending this letter to. At one time, when I started to curtail the publishing schedule of the wrestling news, I sent you payment to make sure that you continued to send me your newsletter. That was over two years ago. At that time, you wrote me that I didn't need to send you payment because you would continue to send me the newsletter because my plugs in the wrestling news are what helped you get it started in the first place. And because I was continuing to give you free advertisements in it. I guess you change your mind, which I can understand. But I have written to you several times saying I would like to be a paid subscriber and receiving no reply. Nor am I even sure I have your correct address at this time. Whatever the case, I am in hopes that this will reach you and I've included a postage paid envelope so that you can write me back and let me know the cost of getting to be a paid subscriber to your newsletter. Thank you, Norman Kiteser. Oh, man, here you can't even fucking back out of it because I didn't send a stamp. Here's a stamp self-addressed envelope. Well, I wonder what happened to drive a rift into their relationship. It appears someone has made a mistake too. In the middle of the Meltzer file of a bunch of pictures of Sam Menaker. Let me put these. Someone filed wrong before it got to me, ladies and gentlemen. Going through a bunch of these papers here as they pop up. November 4th, 1985, Dear Dave, below is a copy of your advertisement as it will appear in the Wrestling News Number 120. Please let us know right away if you want any changes in the wording of it. Otherwise, it will go in justice way. Also, always let us know if you want any changes in the future issues for your advertisement other than updating as far as new material received. And then it has this plug here. And at that time, what was it? Dave Meltzer, Turlock, California, sent us four issues of his Wrestling Observer newsletter during the past two months. He doesn't promise an exact schedule, but it appears that it comes out about twice a month. Each of these four newsletters contain eight letter size pages packed with news, results, inside information, and opinions on the major promotions. Dave charges $5 for a four issue subscription. I thought he was going to lower that price when it took off. He also asks that we mention that he has videotapes and he charges $2 for a copy of his 50 page VHS tape listing of more than 500 hours of main event matches. You know, you forget about that. The idea that it wasn't as simple as, hey, you have a tape, I'll take what's trade. Sometimes it was, but you had to get catalogs. You had to look through things. You had to have a conversation to take out what you wanted. Someone wanted a compilation tape. That was a big pain in the ass. Oh, a pain in the ass. Any thoughts on any of this? Yes, it was a pain in the ass. That's why Weasel Dooley was doing all of my duplication at that point. I was on the road. He was making the, he was culling it down into what I needed to see and sending it off to me at that point. A lot of interviews from the AWA program, but poor Dave. It seems that he's left a trail of broken relationships everywhere he goes. Here's a check mail to Dave Meltzer for $50. December 26, 1987, right after Christmas, Campbell, California from Norman Kiteser above check is for a 50 issue subscription to your newsletter. I haven't received an issue since last month. So I assume I was cutting this son of a bitch off right. It said no grace period whatsoever. So I assume I am off your comp list again. I want to get the newsletter. So I am subscribing and closes a copy of my latest issue. Number 124 with your free ad in it. Also a copy of the ad I plan to run an issue 125, which I am working on now. And there's a check for $50. A copy of it. What a no good. He's running free ads for Dave and having to send checks to subscribe for a year because Dave won't send him a shit. And it appears this right here is this the US title story. Here's a letter from Dave Meltzer to Jim Melby, February 11, 1983. Dear Jim got your letter last week and always interesting hearing from you. Agree with most of your comments, particularly about the Japanese wrestling. I enjoy a Noci's group, particularly the junior heavies, the best also. And Noci's success at the box office shows also. These are written really poorly. Really he has by far a better group of Japanese wrestlers in his table, which is the main difference as both groups book similar number of quality Americans. As I think I told you, I'm familiar with the Georgia problems, but I don't know the reason. I do know people who see them live don't seem to like the promotion nearly as well as the people from out here who only know of them through the cable. To the fans out here, it seems the Georgia promotion is like the ideal promotion, so to speak. Other things may be good, but nothing can compare with Georgia. Although I don't know the reasons, I will assume that you're right in saying if they live there, they wouldn't hold the same opinion. Let's stop there for a second because Georgia TV was on cable and you could see it in different places. This is 1983, February 83. This was really the beginning years of World Championship wrestling being seen nationwide. People in other places thought it was great because it was different than their wrestling. At the same time, people in Georgia were rejecting it. Well, that's true. And with a lot of places where they got over in the Sheik's old territory, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, not only had, as we've talked about many times, that had been dead and the Sheik had stopped running, but the product the last few years of his promotion was just horrible in-ring. Everybody was 80 years old. Or, you know, let's face it, Vern had major names and stars, but they were all old. And he didn't have a lot of action in his territory because it had been built that way and he didn't have competition. But when they see the free birds in Georgia, all this new young talent and an NWA style promotion with a ring that wasn't made out of concrete and guys taking bumps and cutting these wild promos, that appealed to Roy Schier's promotion had gone out of business a couple of years before in Northern California. And it had been on its ass for a couple of years before that. So where there wasn't a strong promotion or a strong youthful promotion, the Georgia TV was the thing everybody had to see. But in the state of Georgia, where they had not only been used to that style and that method of presentation, but every major name in the NWA had been in there regularly for the previous 10 years, they were harder to please and only booking at that time, that 1983 period guys were going to Japan and he'd just fucking they'd be off and then they'd come back. It was kind of like Tony Khan's booking. You'd see him and then you wouldn't see him and things wouldn't make sense and phantom title changes and well, the road warriors are here, but goddamn last month it was a completely different team and somebody else was champion and it just it was it was a mess in Georgia where they had been watching it weekly and going to the live matches weekly for years and years and years. That was the summer we went to Georgia from Tennessee, me and Dundee and the Georgia wrestling superstars because the state of Georgia, every town was on its ass. Columbus, Macon, Knoxville, John Chattanooga, Augusta Georgia, nothing was drawn because they just they'd burn it out and it didn't make sense. Well, back to this letter from day February 11th, 1983. Most people who get videos from everywhere seem to say that Memphis has the best TV show. I know they get incredible ratings, but I never liked the show. It was always a little too uncontrolled for my taste. They certainly get more mileage out of their talent than any other group I've seen. My favorite show is also Mid-South, which combined an interesting and somewhat unpredictable hour with at least some first rate wrestling, although I'm disappointed in their hero side with stagger Lee and two their hero side. You know, let's let's remember, ladies gentlemen, Dave was a stone cold mark at one point. Didn't even know the lingo. You know, Dave has always pointed to this example that when he used to have a problem and when you guys would even try to talk about it, about Dave's changing thoughts on all this, he would point out that there were wrestlers who hated Memphis wrestling, that they thought it was Luthes or whoever. Who do you say? Harley or that I forget who it was. Guys who all ended up working there. Theson did an opening of promotion at Nashville, but it was like guys look down on Memphis wrestling. This is the first time I've ever read Dave say he looked down on Memphis wrestling. Well, see, it's all it always comes back to what Dave felt and then Dave tried to find people that agreed with the way that he felt. But the guys looked down on the Tennessee territory more because of the payoffs, especially because Nick Goulas had set that precedent. But Jared Jarrett wasn't going to go hungry at the expense of taking care of a wrestler. And the guys didn't mind working there except for a Luthes who had somewhat, you know, high standards. But it was the money, not the style of the wrestling. And Dave didn't get that. They would knock it just because they didn't want to come out and say, well, I didn't make any money there. They say, ah, it's a bunch of bullshit. Yeah, I didn't make any money doing bullshit. Other people made money doing bullshit. So they must be better than I am. And by the way, for the record attached to this letter was a little more to a copy of the check sent to Dave Meltzer San Jose for the U.S. title history used in number 93. How much did he make for that article? $35. Okay, I said 15. I was under cutting it. I'm quite interested in how WWF draws next month in LA. AWA may get a good crowd on March 5th in San Francisco. I've heard a decent amount of comment about Lawler plus Hogan versus Ventura has been very well promoted. Here's my social security number. I'll be sending you my bullet. What is that? Can you read that? I am not going to do that. That is not allowed. I'd be most interested in programs from mid south with southwest and any AWA programs that aren't sold in this area also of interest. Don't know your publication frequency, but we often have shows every six weeks. So I may not see all your issues of the AWA program. I really enjoyed the Japanese wrestling the most because it was so unique. I treated in such a high class manner, etc. I have tired of Abdullah and Singh's antics, although at first they were great. Sometimes when they don't have good Americans, Baba's show is just tough to watch because it doesn't have the first rate Japanese wrestlers and no keys Japanese villains make his show almost never tiresome, although they abuse that double count out ending a little too much. That's all for now. Keep in touch. Dave Meltzer. You know, the Japanese TV shows in 19, I first started seeing them 1980, 80, 81, 82, 83, they were incredible. And we've talked about you saw not only the best Americans, which Baba had the best Americans and then his top Japanese two or three guys were okay and then it dropped or in no key was stuck with only having mostly WWF guys, but he also brought in the Mark Rockos and the guys from England and it had more international flavor. It was a great show to watch wrestling matches and you got to see like we never got to see goddamn Ricky steamboat on television in Kentucky, but we got to see it on tape from Japan or Nick Bachwinkel or the Funk Brothers or every top American and the matches were good to great. But when I was watching, I was like, this great, I'm getting to see. I liked it. Obviously, Tiger Mask was a thing and dynamite kid was crap. But as far as the Japanese talent in no key was good, we knew Baba, you know, was pasted at that point. And no key had an aura about him and his guys seemed like they wrestled harder, but there was an element of interchangeability and there was also no promos, no interviews. So you liked being able to see the American wrestlers and the top stars that you hoped one day you'd get to see live or in your own territory and wow, this man, you know, Dory versus Terry going 56 minutes. That was a curiosity that you enjoyed seeing, but didn't look up to the hype. When you saw the pictures and heard they wrestled each other. I don't know what I expected when I eventually saw that years after the fact, but it wasn't the match I saw. Well, and they had to put Dory over, even though Terry was the more exciting at that point because seniority, Dory was the, you know, the more well respected guy because he came first. But point being, you got to see all that stuff, but it didn't replace Memphis wrestling or Mid-South wrestling or Mid-Atlantic wrestling where you'd have a Rick Flair or a Jerry Lawler, a junkyard dog or fucking whoever coming out and cutting promos and the personal issues and the angles and the fuck finishes to build the stipulations. That was what I liked about wrestling. And then, you know, when you watch the Japanese tapes, which I still have every single one, I have a tape of every Baba and a Noki show from 1980 through 1992 or so. The matches were great, but you also, you wanted to, I always liked seeing the American guys go against people you never got to see them work with. That, you know, Nick Bakuwinko wrestled some other great talent that only wrestled for Crockett and never went to work for Vern or whatever. That was the appeal of the, and also Japanese wrestling is the only place then anywhere you got to see main event arena matches, which was wild and off the charts as far as holy mackerel, look what they're doing. So there was an appeal to it, but at no time did I or anybody that was watching or viewing it with me, Norman Dooley or whoever think that that program or that promotion could replace Memphis wrestling in Memphis or the Crocketts in the Carolinas or whatever. It was, it was a curiosity from Japan that was cool to watch on video, but it wouldn't fly here and nobody ever thought that, except Dave. Well, this is going to be the end of part one of from the files Dave Meltzer because I have a long, long back and forth here I have found. And he do love to type, Donnie. Well, this is from 1984. It's pages and Norman Keitzer's reply of him having issues with Norm Keitzer's reporting and what he's reading in someone else's publication. So we'll get to that next time on for the, not for the files from the files. What a tease. Dave's first foray into anti-social behavior. All right, Jim. Well, as we begin to wrap up this episode, we'll wrap up. As your attention begins to wane, it's time for from the files. Uh-oh. This is part two of the Dave Meltzer one. It could be a multipar, but we're going to stop at two for at least now. This is a long letter and I got a long reply. And by the way, this is the from the files segment for the folks who haven't tuned in recently. Brian is going through the wrestling news files of Norman Keitzer and Jim Melby that he owns and possesses has the rights to and Norm Keitzer kept every letter and communication he ever got and a copy of everything he ever sent out, much like the Jack Feffer of the wrestling magazine industry. And on a recent program, we went through Dave Meltzer's attempt to sell Melby on the idea that he could do a story on the San Francisco U.S. title and the Japanese wrestling scene that he was well connected with. This was from 1982, I think, right? And then Norm Keitzer's attempts in the 80s to get issues that the observer sent to him. Yes, even when he was trying to pay for them. Well, this one, we're going to take a step back. September 5, 1984. So this is before WrestleMania. This is after Cindy Lauper a little over a year after Norm Keitzer lost the WWF business. Dave Meltzer's observers been going for a little while now. Let's go to this. Dear Mr. Keitzer, I received the most recent issue of your publication, October 1984, today, and had a few problems with it. Uh oh, which I thought it would be better to contact you personally about than air any of these gripes publicly. A gripe. Now, wait a minute. This guy, he was writing, Dave was writing a year and a half earlier. Please plug my newsletter that I'm going to do that I think will be the greatest newsletter ever. And also, can you please let me write some articles for your magazine? And if he didn't complain about the $35 that he got paid for that one article, then what's he got to complain about now? A few minor points. In the fan club column, you have continued to list the observer as being monthly. When in fact, it comes out every three weeks. The subscription price is $13 for six issues with one issue for $2. The reason being, what now wait, what? Suck up. What? The subscription price is $13 for six issues with one issue for $2. What if I just, if I send you $2 a week at the end of six weeks, I'm a dollar ahead, aren't I? That sounds like that's exactly what it's. Well, they're $10 each or two for 50. Well, the reason being that this, excuse me, that the mid-January issue will be the annual yearbook. The yearbook will be about 50 years. Well, wait a minute. Again, I don't mean to bog you down here, but that fucking pricing scheme seems to be year round. We're not just talking about, why don't you have a set price for issues and then add on a la carte the annual. I'm just spitballing here. I don't know. The yearbook will be about 50 pages and individually costs $5. I've also asked a number of times recently to mention I am interested in trading either VHS or beta tapes with anyone. Right now, especially if you have a good looking girlfriend. Right now, especially the mid-south area. Actually, I am now receiving regular tapes from every major circuit except Southwest and Mid-South. Thus can offer WWF, AWA, Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Memphis, world class, all three Japan groups. When the third gets its TV outlet. Wait a minute. He said he's not getting Mid-South television in 1984. September 84. Had he moved from Wichita Falls, Texas, because he was there in a couple of the towns where we had the last stampede. He was working at a newspaper. I didn't know him then and had never met him and had even heard of him, but he has since talked about working at a newspaper, I think along with Mark Nolte for a period of time. Yeah, that's right. And he was watching the Mid-South TV in 1984. He was going to some of the shows I believe in Oklahoma City, I want to say. Yeah, Oak City is where it was. He was at the last stampede. Well, anyway. Well, it says here San Jose. He's trying to con somebody. Well, it says San Jose. He's back in San Jose now. They ran him out of Texas. And Calgary until it disbands along with Portland in exchange. Actually, the main issue I'm writing is because of the nature of your past issue in regards to the real story about what is happening in wrestling. Uh-oh. Now, I'm sure my personal feelings about what Vinny is attempting to do to the business. He's calling him Vinny already? Once again, now I am sure my personal feelings about what Vinny is attempting to do to the business are pretty close to the same as yours. Since you have more of an economic interest, you probably feel even stronger about it. But being an avid fan and one who sees the business going into a major slump next year, my thoughts are similar. Wait, he called for a slump? In 85. Well, okay. I didn't know anybody in 84 was calling for a slump. They were calling for trouble, but things were just heating up. At the same time, I think your issue moved into Bill Aptor Journalism with its making up facts in order to get across the point. I realize I take a very strong stance on the current state of wrestling, but never, and that's underlined, have I made up a fact or printed anything that, I guess he originally wrote what so he crossed that out? That's what screwed me up. Anything that at the time I printed it, I didn't believe it to be the truth. I often make- It's wrestling publicity. Norm Kiteser was doing magazines to be sold in the arenas by the promoters and on the newsstands for wrestling fans that wanted to fucking know about their goddamn favorite wrestlers. They didn't want non-KFAB shit that they didn't understand. Dave has been narrow casting since the start, hadn't he? I often make mistakes, and my buddies, and that's in quotes, at Titan Sports continue to swear I'm never right more than 50% of the time. But because of the nature of the business, it's impossible to print anything meaningful without occasionally being an error. I certainly agree it is insulting to fans to tell them that the wrestling they have supported for years is minor league. I also agree, WWF has a horrid record for developing new talent, which I believe would be the worst effect if McMahon's pipe dream becomes reality. So let's stop there, that's interesting. 1984, McMahon's pipe dream, which was eating up the entirety of wrestling, which kind of happened, and it killing the pipeline for talent, which is exactly what ended up happening, which is why they needed OVW. And that's, everybody was assuming that Vince was nuts with what he was trying to do. Well, not nuts, but that he wasn't going to succeed in 1984 and run in everybody out of business, but they were in sense that he was not only damaging the business by running opposition to everybody, but by openly making it more entertaining and silly, which did hurt. I don't think that Vince running against some of the promoters, Mid-South, Crockett, Memphis, world class, the strong territories, I don't think the bigger production or the major league is what swayed people. I think that the very point of Vince's product, that it's kind of over the top and silly and not to be taken seriously, and it's not a blood struggle for revenge, hurt the territories that were booming where everything was a blood struggle for revenge. Because it kind of took this like, ah, maybe they're not as serious as we thought. You see what I'm saying? I do. A lot of the fans felt that way into Carolinas when I was actively speaking to them and seeing them walking into the fucking building every night. But that's the thing is, I don't think the promoters thought that he was going to succeed until him taking so much of the over talent and so many of the key places hurt the businesses to the point where they were on the verge of, and then it was like, ah, shit. And by then everybody's getting smart. Not everybody. Now everybody's smart, but people are being smartened up and kind of entertainment wrestling was the thing that was bulletproof because you already knew it was bullshit. But the other promotions were harmed by the revelation that it was bullshit. And again, this is that period of time, pre-Russellmania. Just months before Mr. T would get involved, months before David Schultz and John Stasl, and they got a ton of publicity. Yeah. There was a perfect storm at the beginning of 1985. But how about Dave writing a guy that's been publishing magazines for 20 years and he's like a 23 year old journalism graduate. And he said, ah, I had a few problems with your recent publication. Oh, I'd be like, motherfucker, you were asking me if you could write for me a year ago and now you've got problems with my publication. Let's go back to Dave. Whether the WWF has more top talent working for it than the NWA, AWA, and Mid-South Combined is of course opinion, and you are entitled to it. I disagree, however. When it comes to meaningful talent, which really counts, the few with real box office appeal, the WWF has a distinct majority with only a few real draws. Kevin and Karyvon Eric, Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler, The Road Warriors, and a very few others left. Let me turn the page here. Your first knock against Titan is they have bought- So now he's holding up for him. Is that they have bought TV time out from existing AWA or NWA promotions. While I'd rather the business didn't operate this way, I have grown accustomed to the business practices and wrestling, which are like an old style Texas death match. Anything goes until one man is left standing. The fact is, tracing history, the TV time slot the WWF bought from the AWA here in San Francisco, which is really the only direct theft, shall we say, KPLR TV in St. Louis. Yeah, KPLR is St. Louis station was going to drop Geigel, whether Vince had come to town or not, was originally an AWA theft from ICW. He was probably going to pick up Madisick, though. They would have picked up Madisick and then Vince came in and they forced Vince to work with Madisick and then Vince pushed out Larry Madisick. But again, to end the sentence, and there was a lot in between, he's saying that Vince, the TV Vince is being, that they're saying Vince stole, the AWA stole from ICW when the Paphos somehow got TV in San Francisco, if you remember that. Oh good lord, that's right. That's when they started saying on TV in Lexington, they were having big matches at the Cal Palace. In fact, for all the multitudes of complaints from the AWA when WWF first came to this area, the AWA came in when an existing NWA group, Roy Shires, was still operating regularly. If you look at crowd figures from this area, it is obvious the wrestling public is quite happy with the change. At least at the present, I realize your publication will never print anything negative about the AWA, but when you realize the AWA only averages 800 fans monthly and WWF is top 10,000 three straight times, you can see which side the fans have chosen. So I'm guessing Norm Kiteser wrote an editorial saying they're not doing good everywhere and Dave's taking up for the San Francisco part of it. I believe so, because again, Norm lived in Minnesota. He had known that's how he had got started was doing AWA publications and Vern and etc. So with Vern running the, but at that point in time, when Vern made money in San Francisco and going out to Northern California, Shire was really only running the Cal Palace. His territory had fallen apart and he had stopped even producing his own television, was using another tape and bringing in talent. And that's what Vern invaded and, you know, took over and did well for a while in California and then Vince came in and snatched, you know, the whole roster. I always say what side is Leo and Nommalini on. And that's where I go. There you go. You can't go wrong with Nommalini. The next knock is Titans ticket prices. I lived in Texas and know that for a big show in Dallas, the best seats go for $30. I don't know anywhere McMahon charges more than $30, by the way, that would have to be front row at Texas Stadium because you could still get front row at the Sportatorium in Dallas in 1984 for like fucking $10. Well, yeah, the next sentence says McMahon charges no more than $12 for any tickets $30 for 1984. It doesn't seem like a lot now. That's an extraordinary amount for ringside for a weekly territory or anything. I don't even think that that was front row at reunion arena for a Christmas or Thanksgiving Star Wars. He had to be talking about Texas Stadium. We'll see what we can find out about that. The Mid-South shows in Oklahoma City charge $12 for ringside for a normal show and $15 for a special show. Special yeah. It quotes the special whenever the Midnight Express was in a main event, they got 15 baby. Special meaning any card after a previous sellout at $12. You know what? That's true. The AWA here was charging $12. The crowds got so bad, they got so desperate and chopped $2 off. In most competing cities in the AWA region, the prices between both groups are comparable. WWF charges $3 more in Miami. Why is he telling Norman Kites or this who could give two French fried titty fucks about it to begin with? WWF charges $3 more in Miami than the NWA group and charged $1 more in what had been Lawler's region. But your blanket statement is false. In fact, it was Bill Watts, not McMahon, who had to nerve the charge $50 for the recent Superdome show. Was that ringside at the Superdome? $50. I well okay. $50 then that would have been the front row at the Superdome. It's not ringside. That would just be the front row. Second row would probably be 25 or whatever. It was in Florida on NWA soil that they had to nerve the charge $100 for the Orange Bowl show. Holy shit, really. I didn't know that. No wonder they didn't do a fucking major house there in addition to the fucking inclement weather. No wonder Dusty said Eddie, I'm leaving unless you give me the fucking money I drew on this fucking show. When they gave Dutchman Tell the book in Florida and he got things going kind of good, they had to sell out in one of the medium sized towns and they told him in the office they said, oh well, that's almost the best we've ever done. Well fuck if it was sold out, how's that not at least equal to the best you've ever done? Oh well, we had a show there before we raised prices. That was the first time Dutch had been to Booker. He said, hell I didn't know you could raise the prices. Let me hear, we'll raise the fucking prices. Eddie, we go ahead. Now, for action received, I agree. Titan's shows are overpriced, which is why I will no longer attend them, but they aren't higher priced than all the other promotions as you indicated. You're knocks against Hulk Hogan I won't waste space on, because of how unimportant in reality wins and losses are. However, to my knowledge, Bob Backlund never pinned Hulk Hogan and I'm certain Santana never pinned Hogan in WWF territory. And even if he did, those bouts took place three years ago, thus aren't valid in anyone's mind, except for the precious few wrestling historians So probably Norman is doing the old thing where well, Hulk Hogan has been defeated by Bob Backlund and Tito Santana and this and that guy, and Dave's gotta tell him no he hasn't. Norm probably knew he hasn't. Again, Jack Feffer, where do you think his shit came from? More interesting, he says it hasn't, and then he says, well even if it did, no one would care except for the precious few wrestling historians. That's Dave putting down the historians. Oh, god damn it. Next, in the past most top, this is a quote from Norman, in the past most top stars moved freely back and forth between all the major organizations. End quote. Quit spewing the party line when it's a bunch of crock. If somebody writes you, no wonder. No wonder there was heat. If somebody writes you out of nowhere, some fucking college kid, well quit spewing the party line in your magazine. What the fuck are you? Once again, quit spewing the party line when it's a bunch of crock. They moved back and forth only. I thought a crock was the container. They moved back and forth only. If you can't have a bunch of containers, can you? You'd have to have a bunch of shit or a crock of shit, but the shit would be integral to be the stuff that's inside the container. I think he's trying to say shit, but he went with crock. But anyway, the wrestlers moved back and forth only at the whim of their controlling promoter. Quit. Don't talk about all the freedom these wrestlers have. He still didn't know how the business worked then in terms of if guy fucking then gave his notice and left, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted with anybody that would hire him. Don't talk about all the freedoms these wrestlers have when in reality they have little and McMahon's competition actually gives them more options. In your Georgia section, you stated how quote through a corporate takeover and corporate decision and quote, McMahon got control of Georgia championship wrestling incorporated. Why don't you just say he bought the stock out from a majority of the shareholders and the courts ruled there was nothing illegal in the way he did it. Vince may have done some crooked and unscrupulous things, but as far as legality is concerned, that certainly wasn't one of them. A lot of it seems like semantics too, but let's continue. A lot of it seems like how much free time did he have to again Norman Kiteser had nothing to do with any wrestling promotion and he was operating a nice little magazine there and he didn't want to hear any of this shit, he didn't give a shit. The biggest complaint I have is your coverage of the anarchy Hogan bout from Japan. Oh here we go, don't touch Japan. First off, you left out several important details of the match, the two double count out endings, but even worse, you claim that the bout was for the WWF title. You must have known full well since you received the same reports from Japan as I do that this was billed as for the IWGP title. I realize your magazine apparently has a very personal grudge against Hogan for reasons I don't know, but this pathetic attempt to downplay his WWF title using non-factual material really bothered me. Do you think that it may have been that since Hogan was the WWF champion and they had pictures of him and anarchy in Japan that since nobody in the goddamn United States of America had ever heard of the IWGP title, they just oh here's Hogan defending his title because it was fucking wrestling. Well see that's the thing too and I have to go back and check because I have everything, I have the finished copies and all the content, the contents of everything that made up the copy, but Koichi was sending all the photos and the reports and you know again I don't know, well we do have Norman Keizer's response to this, but I don't know exactly what would have caused this, but Dave was very upset of course as we very upset perturbed even. I realize your magazine has a personal grudge against Hogan for reasons I don't know, but this pathetic attempt to downplay his WWF title using non-factual material really bothered me. Hey, I wasn't complimentary to Hogan covering the same match being that his massive ego forced a ridiculously contrived ending which damaged the promotion greatly. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wasn't that the fucking thing that everybody thought was a shoot? Where I think that was the year before because this is 84, that was 83. Okay, okay, I'm sorry. And by the way 83 if you remember it was a tournament but technically the IWGP championship is separate from the IWGP tournament. So in terms of what title he was talking about here, but anyway. Yes. You then say, quote, we are not sure where the claim originates, end quote, referring to Cobra's NWA junior title. Well, Cobra's belt is the same one less Thornton lost in Japan in 1982 to Tiger Mask. Does that refresh your memory? God damn it. And I ask you again Mr. Keizer and I remind you you are under oath. Dave has been an insufferable fucking spectrum rider since even before I'd never saw this in his younger days but I've fortunately apparently didn't have to have these marathon letters written to me. He liked your magazines. When Sayama retired, Cobra and Davy Boy Smith were placed in an elimination match and Cobra won. You also state, quote, in cities WWF is going head to head, the crowds have been fair to poor in most cases, end quote. Okay, there have been some major failures and there will be more for reasons I've outlined a million times in the Observer. However, this area has been a major success. St. Louis is still generally doing better for WWF than NWA. In fact, even your beloved Twin Cities. Who have dare even your beloved Twin Cities that you that you gin you fleck to. Have shown the Twin Cityite. Have shown the WWF beating the AWA solidly two of three times. It was two out of three falls and the WWF got it. The Miami crowds are nothing great but are about what the NWA does weekly. The Atlanta debut drew better than 90% of the Georgia Championship wrestling shows had in that city over the past year. If you were going to tab WWF road crowds as fair to poor, wouldn't it be responsible journalism to mention the home promotion is doing poorly or fairly as well? My last disagreement. So he wants to freelance for this magazine and change their entire editorial policy and stance. To his slant on things and again if you're listening to this, he had a hang on a lot but not a not as much of a hang as he would in a few years. We have to talk into a lot more wrestlers. So let's finish this off though. My last disagreement is your suggestion that McMahon has a staff of more competent announcers than himself and his ego makes him take center stage. Well yes, his ego makes him take center stage but what more competent announcer are you referring to? Monsoon is even more obnoxious on the air than Vince. Gene doing play by play is setting standards for incompetence and the rest of the crew are thoroughly worthless. The only more competent announcer on Vince's staff than himself is an unnamed individual who is an unnamed individual who he is keeping off the tube completely for that very reason. Who is that? The only more competent announcer on Vince's staff, so already working there in 84 than himself. But now announcer ring announcer would be Howard Finkle but Finkle was always ring announcing. But he's saying commentary and he keeps him off TV because he's better than McMahon. Not talking about Pat Patterson. No and he had been removed from commentary a year and a half earlier or so. Well boy Dave, Dave leaves these teasers. I don't know who that might be at that time frame. And by the way we're going to end with his last little bit here and we'll pick up we will do a part three next time with Norman Keiter's response to this. My last question will be answered. Did it begin with hey motherfucker? I'll go ahead. My last question will be answered probably in your next issue. Will you try and create a federal case when reporting the results of the July 25th match when Jumbo Saruta beat Rick Martell via count out to keep a title but not the AWA title? In fact the whole match has been ignored by Ganya and his promotion here. And there was no interference in that match nor two double count out endings prior to that. And he signs it about all. What about it's about all? Last time it was yours and wrestling now it's yours and wrestling comma now it's about all. Period Dave Meltzer. San Jose, California. So again you know I think in terms of communication skills and interpersonal skills and being able to take what you truly believe is the only way to see things. I guess what I'm trying to say is it doesn't seem too dissimilar than the way he behaves on Twitter right now. Well but he's been doing it since before he knew anything or should have thought that he knew any goddamn thing. Cause now he's all inflated because he's been doing this for 40 years and he's talked to everybody and smoked everybody whatever but then he was still he was telling his guys been doing this for 20 years doesn't give a shit about what he's saying. Oh yeah you gotta do all this this way. He's always been like that. Again noticeable is the ending. Yours and wrestling versus about all. About all. That's about enough of you. What I gotta think of you right now. You're dismissed and I will call for you when I need you again. Well like I said next time on the drive-thru Norm Kiteser's response from the files Dave Meltzer volume three. Then let's go to the files. Uh oh. Let me grab all this. Of course. Set the files down on the desk. Yeah there's a few things here of course from the files is where I go through the archives of the wrestling news wrestling review pro wrestling enterprises and we talk about some of the interesting historical tidbits that we're able to find looking through the correspondence files of pro wrestling enterprises. Yes. Does that sound correct? Yes that for once you're doing it and I'm saying yes you have encapsulated that correctly. Well I think we have to start where we left off. I have Norm Kiteser's letter to Dave Meltzer. Well okay you should mention that we have done from the files part one and part two on Dave Meltzer because it is such a thick file because when last we left our space travelers Dave had written Norm Kiteser about a four page type written letter telling him what was wrong with his fucking magazine. And that was dated September 5th 1984. Here's Norm and Kiteser's response September 14th 1984. David Meltzer per year letter. First of all here is the entry I plan to use in the wrestling news number 114 which I am now working on. David Meltzer I will not give his address in San Jose sent us to September 10th issue of his wrestling observer fan club bulletin. It consisted of 26 legal sized pages with complete reports on virtually every major area also some photos and clippings. Included were a lot of opinions from Dave and from his members. Dave charges two dollars for a single issue or 13 dollars for the next six. Two dollars a piece or 13 for six how the fuck. He promises a new bulletin every three weeks. Dave plus also that's written weird Dave plus also to put out a year book in mid-January that will cost five dollars per copy plans. Dave plans all that's what it is. He also asked that we again mention he is interested in trading videotapes either VHS or beta and is especially interested in obtaining mid-south tapes. So after that whole letter he starts by way here's your plug. Yeah in the next issue. Norm Kiteser was the most unconfrontational not assertive or aggressive person. Probably good for Dave in that instance because I was a first of all motherfucker but go ahead. It is always best to write me a note just to catch it to the bulletin when you change your frequency or price. I sometimes miss things like that although I do attempt to read through every bulletin. Now as to your other charge in your letter that I make up facts to support my opinions Basically the things you take issue with me are on my opinions clearly labeled by me as my opinions. On attendance I have stated that WWF is out drawing the AWA in San Francisco. That is not the case here in the Twin Cities. The first two WWF cards reported by Vince Jr. as sellouts drew less than half a house each at the Met Center. And once again September 84 so they had just started going into Minnesota. They had Hogan, they had Mean Jean, David Schultz but Vern wasn't dead right away. No he took them out. He had the road warriors. 84 was a strong year for them still. Their last card with Hogan and Oakland versus Fuji and Steel which they reported at 17,000 on TV. Geez. And you reported at 15,800 drew about half of that. After three rounds the AWA drew clearly larger crowds the first two times and about the same the last time. On average ticket prices from the information I have which I admit is not a complete compilation of all tickets sold as I don't think anyone has all the figures from every card promoted. I believe that the average WWF ticket price is higher than that of other promotions. On Japan and Hogan first of all I don't hate Hogan. While I do have some lack of respect for wrestlers who cut interviews for one promotion saying that they will appear on a card and then jump to McMahon I think that the primary reason they have done this is that McMahon feels getting someone to come over to him in that way is the way he can most damage the opposition. Nothing wrong there. Yeah. If Hogan, Ventura, Junkyard Dog and others do that you can't blame them for making a decision that they think will make more money for themselves but I think the long run is that McMahon is doing more damage to the sport of wrestling as a whole than he is damaging his individual competitors. And that a lot of people he has made promises to are going to end up not getting what they were promised. Let me stop there for a moment. What do you think of his insights into the state of wrestling in 84? Well the thing is Norm Kitzer had dealt with promoters and been around a lot of these guys especially in Minnesota but all over the country for a period of 15 years or more at that point and he dealt with Vince. He printed and produced the programs for Vince Sr. for years from the mid to late 70s to the early 80s when Vince Jr. banned everybody and took their stuff in house. So he already had an inkling of how these people operated and that was his opinion of what Vince was doing and he turned out to be right. And again the idea that he doesn't hate Hogan but he has a lack of respect for people that walk out on the promoters they were doing promos for you were there when junkyard dog did exactly that. Yeah and Norm Kitzer was up there in Minnesota when Hogan did it for all those towns and then didn't come back from Japan went to work for Vince and it does hurt and it hurts the wrestling business in the way that Norman is talking about from a business perspective especially back then fans they didn't give a what promotion they were going to see wrestling and if you go to see a wrestling show and you buy a ticket and one of the main people or more of than one of the main people on the card that you went to see doesn't show up then the next time instead of thinking oh I gotta go back and see some more of that ah the last time they got to show hey that's the way he's talking about damaging the business because that sentiment will spread you know the more often that it happens and it wasn't the wrestling business and the fans didn't look at it then like they do now where the fans now they don't even know who's going to be on the fucking card they are going to go see dynamite or raw or whatever in that era they read the entire card that you were going to see at the house show on television and god damn it down to the first match and those things better happen that way and people got mad when they didn't well back to norm titers response to dave melzer on japan there has been a lot of 1984 style statements made there by new japan mcman shinma and everybody connected with wwf during the past two years telling the people basically one week that black is black and then the next that black is white let's go back and look at things two years ago when titan and new japan left the nwa they announced the first grand pre-tournament to name an undisputed world heavyweight champion they made these announcements in both the us and japan the tournament was to culminate with the finals in japan with the winner of the competition to meet backland at msg for the undisputed world heavyweight championship mcman senior appeared at the opening of the finals in japan and repeated that basic statement then hogan won but no match was scheduled hogan came to the us and wrestled on a w a and nwa cards had had world heavyweight championship title matches in each organization in which he failed to win those claims then he went to msg earlier this year and won the wwf title making him undisputed champion according to junior's statements both titan and new japan recognize him as the world heavyweight champion then we had the fiasco when junior tried with shinma to start a separate wwf promotion in japan that's the u wf if you remember i heard so many conflicting statements on that and on the u wf that i don't know what the true story is in fact the true story probably changed from day to day as everyone seemed to be double crossing everyone else involved anyway the end came with mcman jr saying new japan was back as a w wf member the new japan promotion announced a second grand peak grand p grand pre competition with the winner to meet hogan for the world heavyweight championship nothing was said at that point about there being two separate titles a w wf world's heavyweight title and a grand pre world heavyweight title now they and you are saying there are two separate titles and that hogan only lost the grand pre world heavyweight championship to enoki the descriptions of that bout are also somewhat confused with interference and count outs but in the end enoki was declared the winner and the champion in japan from what i have heard i could see several reasons why a title would not change hands in that bout and why it would i thought i covered them but i didn't ignore the bout in my magazine so let me stop there for a moment jim and take a pause what are your thoughts on him defending himself here well and he's trying to be nice as he could because remember when we read and we encourage anybody didn't hear the first segment uh go to the youtube channel the clip is up but he's trying to be as reasonable as possible as he could to david as you will recall we said what is this fucking why is he telling this shit to norm kites or who don't give a shit he's just trying to sell some magazines he doesn't care about these minute fucking complaints that david has brought up and now he has to go through and explain his rationale to a guy that he's given plugs to for a fucking newsletter i think he's bending over backwards to be understanding to the guy that said his magazine sucked which by at the time david had never published anything that didn't come out on copy paper and he's talking to a guy that at least he'd run a magazine you also fault me on the junior title saying that tiger mask was undisputed world junior heavyweight champion when he retired and i agree so that new japan had right to create a new wwf junior heavyweight champion with a tournament which they did with dynamite kid winning which i'll agree to but how could they run a separate elimination for an nwa world junior heavyweight championship with the cobra winning when they were no longer members of the nwa and was sanctioned by the nwa the nwa itself gave the title back to les storton now i believe the nwa says the title is vacant and there'll be a tournament i agree that all acted badly here and that wrestling in general especially here in the us does not do a good job of promotion the junior division i guess a promoting the junior division as a separate entity a lot more wrestlers did more back and forth between promotions before junior attempted to take over everything even mic man's senior showcase wrestlers some other areas off and on even had nwa and awa title matches on his cards i guess that's defending remember david had a problem with norm kaiser saying wrestlers could go from one territory to another yeah and and and also as norm points out vince senior not only had the pipeline to florida with eddie graham where he had florida guys uh guest starring at the garden and making the shots every now and then and dusty on a kind of a regular basis but also he brought the funks in dory funk senior and shortly before he died wrestled in madison square garden vince senior would bring the top talent in from other territories other when he was a member of the nwa other promoters that he would work with and give their talent a showcase in a garden but also it made the garden look different than every other town in his territory because that was the place where stars came from all over the world and as the topic of japan is concerned it was a big deal in japan msg they had msg tournaments for years it apparently just the tournament winner didn't go on to get the title shot that he did he earned well the problem is if you're trying to logically follow what they're saying and they just change things you know what he's supposed to do if you're reporting on it yeah my point on hogan is that he did lose to others the first time in the wwf area the ones i mentioned and that logical matches would be against those challengers who faced him before both flair and martel have faced a larger variety of challengers both in numbers and styles then as hogan this is not the fault of hogan and i don't say it because i dislike him i say it as a comment on jr who has declared war on me not the other way around return a page and of course norm kaiser was the producer of world wrestling federation w wf and w wf programs from the early 70s until 1983 vince wanted him to only cover his company norm kaiser said no way and that began vince's journey to building his own magazine yeah and that's when he banished the people from the after magazines london publishing the former stanley weston publications and all photographers for many magazines except the ones in house with vince were banned for a while there so then they all the shots in in pwy and the wrestler and all that was like with a telephoto lens from the stands i go to wrestling matches to be entertained and juniors cards just are not as good as the other cards part of this being because even though he doesn't lack talent he doesn't use the talent he has well or in enough variety of ways basically the next twin city card is a main event for the w wf of hogan and mad dog vashan versus jesse ventura and george steel ventura has had so many different confrontations with the other two here over the years and steel is a part timer who doesn't do that much other than stick out his green tongue at this point in his career i think very strongly that the new talent in the a w a these days the fabulous ones the road warriors brody atlas etc is better than the talent the a w a lost to the w w f certainly more entertaining as it is presented here in minnesota can you imagine hulk hogan and mad dog vashan as a tag team mad dogs five foot seven hulk six foot seven hulk was not even 35 years old then mad dog was close to 60 mad dog could have torn hulk hogan to shreds within seconds with his bare hands and eating him what a f**king tag team the idea that they lost hogan they lost mean gene david schultz by this point in time uh they'd even lost al derusha for a period of time lots of people and it wouldn't end here norm kites are a lifelong a w a fan although he lived in new york for a time saying that the road warriors the fabulous ones brody etc are coming in the talents better again 84 the a w a did not die in 1984 but what do you think of this because you saw the fabulous ones before they got there well and i mean he's right in that mad dog was an icon and was a huge star but at that point age had caught up with him and george steele minnesota was not the the venue for george steele he had been primarily a w w and w w w f guy and a detroit guy because he lived in detroit he taught school for all those years he didn't start wrestling all year round and give up the school teaching until the early 80s when he could make enough money to in the northeast to make the difference uh but it wasn't a minnesota thing and then when you've got the fabulous ones in the road warriors those guys who were so much younger and so much fresher even though mad dog was an icon jesse was an icon and in the a w a at that point hogan had drawn big money it was just it was an odd slap together thing based on personalities that were over rather than an issue per se so you know and that's uh you know we talked about that that's why the crusher didn't work in georgia in 1979 because he didn't have 20 years of history like he did in the a w a and they were just seeing this guy in his 50s with a beetle haircut let's go back to norman kiteser that is my opinion i go to cards for entertainment the same reason i attend events of other professional sports football baseball etc in my opinion colored by many influences i admit the a w a is the better promotion here time will tell if enough ticket buying fans agree with me and who knows what changes will be made by both organizations in the future you certainly have a right to your opinions and i plug all publications we ask for free ad space in my magazine whether i agree with all the opinions held by the person putting out the bulletin or not is that norm's nice way of saying i think yeah i think you're full of shit but i'm gonna plug you anyway because i'm a nice guy i don't tell you to give up your opinions or claim that i am always right or you were always wrong when we disagree and i do always try to label my opinions as that my opinion i don't even rate wrestlers as i have stated for some 20 years that ratings are simply opinions that are not valid stop there for a second consider all we talked about with day's ratings i don't rate wrestlers as i've always said ratings are opinions that are not valid yes and they never had he never had ratings in the wrestling news or ring wrestling or whatever only under ring wrestling did under a different editorship and that although i think i know as much about the sport as any who do publish so-called official ratings my opinions would be no more valid than theirs in short i don't try to foist off my opinions as being the ultimate truth but at the same time i don't try to hide my opinions and claim to be an unbiased reporter a unique and probably extinct species in that i have never encountered same in any publication on any subject if such a thing existed i do tend to go on and on when i write so i'll close and it's signed by norman but we have a ps ps one last self-serving point whether the other promotions always spent a great deal of time on their television programs talking about what is happening elsewhere or not in the case of the a w a mid-south and some nwa promotions they do allow the wrestling news which covers wrestling everywhere to be sold at their matches and don't attempt to make people believe that the other promotions don't exist that when compared to a promoter who says that he is going to run me out of business because i refuse to cover only his promotion in my national magazine that may have a tendency to make my feelings towards that individual less generous than i am towards others my quarrel specifically is with vince mcman jr because of actions which he has taken against me which i have elaborated on in my magazine not against everyone who works for him and there's norm defending his coverage of vince mcman of the w w f from dav who bizarrely started defending vince mcman of the w w f any thoughts and and again at at the age of 24 doing a newsletter on copy paper telling the guy who's been doing a magazine for 20 years what's wrong with his magazine now admittedly it wasn't the goddamn heyday of time norm's publication but it was at least it had some color on the cover i just the the gall of dav even then to be writing letters and telling these people well you ought to do this not any other thing who shut the fuck up well we'll close from the files with this last letter this was post-80 july 11th 1986 from dave melzer in california to norm kiteser so after the previous one norm i would be interested in writing a column for your mag in exchange for an advertisement in the magazine or being allowed with a regular column to plug the observer and book that's coming out soon i'd really like to do a regular column concerning japanese wrestling oh good lord but if you have another idea of a column i could do for you let me know thanks i will have a special 150 to 160 page issue out on august 1st for $15 it will have profiles of about 330 wrestlers with age career background and real names and it'll also have 14 pages telling you what you ought to do with your magazine so even after all that he still wanted to write a japanese column in 1986 well i know again norm kiteser in various magazines that he published would have pictures from japan or japanese news he it wouldn't be the majority of the magazine and most of the pictures he would try to have some american talent in the in the picture because it was he was still selling to an american audience can you imagine if dav was writing a column on strictly japanese wrestling and we've seen the way that he does it with just the the names and who beat who and sell that on the fucking newsstand in chicago or atomua iowa and people are going what to fuck it's not the same market norm was going for wrestling fans in the united states of america where he sold his magazine it wasn't any slight against the japanese folks that he didn't cover to cover embrace it and you got more coverage of japanese wrestling there than any other magazine in america well yeah because all the bill after magazines the london publishing that were on the newsstands except if a a big american star went to japan they they might have pictures of that or if a big japanese star came to the garden or wherever but otherwise there was no coverage of what was going on in japan well jim let's wrap up here today with a little bit from from the files for the files from the files in the files mildred burke the file for mildred burke i have in the wrestling news archive odd the subject of the queen of the ring movie in which i am starring in a scintillating part with the premiere taking place tuesday february 25th at amc stony brook and louisville with many of the stars including myself where i will put my handprint footprint and print in cement right out in front of the theater before the showing because they've just redone the parking lot if i wait too long the cement will dry how the hell are you gonna do that you're gonna just lay in the cement or are you gonna individually put your put your hands down then your feet down and your down i'm just gonna kind of fall face first and wallow around in it for a little while it sounds like a happening be there folks but jim let's go to the mildred burke file there's a bunch of interesting things in here here's a folded up copy sunday july 8th 1990 from the national sports daily wrestling with the devil by frank the ford mildred burke created a sport and became its greatest champion all in spite of the man her husband who was trying to destroy her so there's a little bit of from 1990 the story was already starting to get out there well of course frank de ford uh the mentor in the journalism category of of our friend uncle dave he was the guy that dave looked up to yeah but when you put it like that people are going to dismiss it he's a legend in terms of sports journalism well i didn't i didn't say dave could replicate that ties that he looked up to him frank de ford was a big time sports writer dave wanted to be like frank don't be like dave folks be like frank i have a stack here of original mildred burke eight by tens all stamped with the ring on the back of it here's another back from the nat lou bett days here's another one this one mildred burke world champion wrestler 1955 another eight by ten here's an interesting letter it's kind of a part of a two-part thing here january 1st 1973 and this is also initialed at the bottom i marilane bender do hereby make the following statements of my own free will and will declare it to be the absolute truth mildred burke the manager for the following girl wrestlers betty mahafny aka mayweston opal may Ernst aka rita benet gilda marie van yon marie van yon and myself marilane bender looked us all in the state of kentucky for a mr. sol weingar off and a mr. phil golden phil golden marie van yon or van yoni uh was the girl that phil golden's all-star wrestling was using as their women's champion they would have four matches on all these outlaw cards it'd be a tag match a single match a girls match and an opening match of either two midgets or two guys from the tag match and she was used on almost all the shows and mayweston not to be confused with may young mayweston was one of the pioneer girl wrestlers that worked with mildred burke years before but she had become ma bas and was the like a ma barker type but was the manager of ron and don the bas boys and she used to get so much heat she got them shot at did you get to see her uh on tv but not ever live but on tv you got to see her yeah she had um god well i think it was a cane that had a lid tip on it and dressed in the the western string tie sometimes in the hat and ron and don bas were either from oklahoma or texas or whatever and the cowboy types that was real early in both of their careers and but anyway yes so the point is because they were an outlaw group and saw weingroff was was booking probably for phil golden they couldn't get mula's talent so they went to mildred burke who in the early 70s was trying to train her own girl stable to try to replicate the glory days and these girls that are being talked about here were were those girls and she did send them at some at one point on a tour of japan for it was the i w a at that point right the third group over there when we go back to this letter mildred burke told mayweston that she could keep all her money if she would look after her business and send back the booking fee from the other three girls mayweston immediately started to double cross mildred burke by telling the girls that our contract with mildred was no good and could be broken at any time as mildred burke's contracts read 25 to manager after transportation she said she would book us for 10 percent and drive us around to the matches what do you think of that mildred's deal was 25 percent and then mayweston said she'll do it for 10 percent and she'll drive them well it could mildred's that that was mula's deal wasn't it 25 percent maybe a little more if she could get it but mayweston's like no fuck you i'll do it for less and i'll drive you and she wanted to take over the girls so she could get the girls booked in all of those towns and mildred burke at the time wasn't she living in california that's right it was just it was her name and her reputation in especially in japan but in some of these outlaw groups that got the girls booked but mayweston was the the one on the ground that have been with her since the start but now she's thinking i can take this thing over from mildred back to mariland benders letter here mayweston also said that mildred burke would soon be out of business and no time did she let us know that she was permitted to keep all her money and still complained about the contract we were overcharged on our transportation and at times she opened our envelopes and we did not even know how much we really had been paid but had to take her word for it we did not know that we had worked for six weeks before mayweston sent any bookings to mildred burke or even contacted her only one time at mildred burke's insistence everything she did or said was detrimental to mildred burke's business and moral character even to the point to the point of causing friction between mildred burke and the promoters for one thing knocking all of mildred burke's other girls in order to keep her from getting any more bookings for this or any other area one instance i know for a fact that mildred burke had booked a new girl into kentucky to replace me when i had to leave for japan her name was valerie griffin i know that saul weingroff had agreed to this booking because i heard them talking about using her in a tag team match excuse me in tag team matches when the girl arrived she was told that mildred burke had not booked her there and she was stranded after several weeks she was jesus after several weeks she was given a few shows so that she could return home still believing that mildred burke had lied to her about being booked i know that she was booked because i heard the promoter and etc talking about the booking of valerie griffin i personally intend to let valerie griffin know that mildred burke did not lie to her let me stop it here for a second again date of january 1st 1973 what are your thoughts on this women's wrestling drama here outside of the mula camp less popular less publicized in the mula camp all this happening well i mean again it's you know somebody trying to undermine a booking agent and take their talent away through hooker crook and and then make a profit by turning around and booking them with the promoters that's as old as wrestling and the thing with with mildred or the the girl getting stranded and not having a way home i'm wondering did they just have her sleeping in a fucking sleeping bag under the overpass or they'd let her hang around in this town for a couple of weeks to starve her to the point where she'd take the job at blah blah blah but the same thing happened to the headbangers once when they were the spiders before they came into i think it was before they came to smoky mountain uh they went to arkansas for burt preness where he had started a territory and they were working six nights a week in his territory for very little money but then one morning all the wrestlers woke up and burt was gone and the territory was closed and some of them didn't have enough money to get home i think that maybe they came to tennessee from arkansas uh because it was halfway to new jersey at least they'd be further home but sometimes you get stuck in those days back to mariland benders letter slash declaration there is no doubt in my mind that may weston is trying to steal mill jord berks business girls and even her champion that she has spent three years trying to build up we are speaking of marie van yon is that how you pronounce that i i'll i'll go with that v a g n o n e for those of you who are wondering why we're trying to figure it out who has now sent in her written notice to quit wrestling it is unfortunate that made apparently she did because he never heard from her again it is unfortunate that may weston is marie van yon's aunt i am signed i'm it's all just so incestuous i'm signing these statements in the hopes that it will stop some of the injustice that may weston is doing to mill jord berk who has a legal contract sanctioned by the california state athletic committee these contracts are valid worldwide and applied to mayweston opal erntz aka rita benet marie van yon as well as myself mill jord berk has many girls and most of them are better wrestlers than any of those mentioned above including myself including me in my opinion may weston should be made to pay her percentage of her booking fee to mill jord berk for all of her matches in kentucky as she did not look after the business to mill jord berk excuse me to mill jord berk's best interest but to bring her great harm i know i was there i was there i knew that's the way it was going to end up i know who you are and i saw what you did obviously it ended up in this file but we don't know who it was sent to and how it got here so it's a interesting little artifact here's a picture of mill jord berk and may weston here's a the one and only world champion girl wrestler mill jord berk eight by ten with her famous belt here's her sunbathing mill jord berk world champion lady wrestler sun tanning at her california home a lot of these photos are photos you may have seen here's mill jord you know i do you have any may weston bikini photos from what i remember they used to put those in prison to cure the sex offenders here's a photo of mill jord berk with a headlock on al jolson of radio and screen fame and as i can see these he said mammy again lots of photos from all over the place some of these are labeled i am looking for here's an article on queen of the mat but this appears to be quite old here is something from the desk of stanley weston he appeared to do a lot lots of drawings of men on here here's a girl wrestler mill jord berks protégé holly howard girl wrestler sun valley california it's a picture of her with a man in an airplane spin you familiar with holly howard at all never heard of holly howard or holly hawk for that matter but that that was unfortunately what the last you know 15 or 20 years of mill jord berks involvement in wrestling was was living in california as a kind of a kindly grandmotherish type training girl wrestlers that didn't really ever go anywhere or make any names because she was shut out from booking them anywhere important there's some black and white photos that aren't even good or i'm someone of a blurry but they're all stamped for booking contact worldwide women's wrestling association the w w w a yes van nye's california or call midget milk midget or call milchard berk and it has her phone number with a two one three area code a lot of these are stamped and a lot of these feature women i've never seen before in wrestling and an older milchard berk it's weird seeing her with the belt as a little old lady here's a picture this is from a tribute to jim london's it's mike miss irkie milchard berk jim london's and george pernassus while jim london's cuts a cake and then there's another one here george pernassus mike miss irkie milchard berk jane scherelle scarlet hardy cross camp and rama franco so this tribute to jim london sounds like a real party yeah well i tell you what they stayed up till all hours that night so i got these photos here of a protest in front of the olympic auditorium and i got the letters that correspond to it the main event at the olympic was revera versus john tolos victor revera versus john tolos roller games saturday and sunday and milchard berk and her women wrestlers are in their well they're in their gear she's just dressed like an old lady but they have placards we want minimum pay of 50 dollars for each girl per night another sign says unfair to local talent another sign says we want equal rights for women wrestlers milchard berk holding up a sign that says if you like girl wrestlers please write the governor ronald reagan sacramento and then another sign we want a girl's wrestling match on every wrestling event these photos were taken by a photographer phil miller highland california well and that's the thing at that time that was 1975 if the main event was revera and tolos right 73 73 sorry i was two years off that at 1973 if if memory serves me correct like the iron chef was where they lifted the ban in new york on women's wrestling mula made the first appearance in the garden was there a ban on women's wrestling in los angeles at that time or was it just as i'm because i remember seeing pictures of mula's girls and peggy paterson etc in in the olympic auditorium was it just they weren't using mildred berks wrestlers and i think she wanted to push the issue why won't you book local talent we live in california they're bringing these girls in from south carolina that type of thing so the earlier letter i read was from january 73 this phil miller letter is from june 11 73 so later in a year six months later dear norm got your first issue under the new format looks really good incidentally i received two copies so check your mailing list and closed are a couple of stories norm i wish you would really blast mildred berk for her tactics in trying to get her incompetent girls work in la in case you're not familiar with the case here's the background a couple of years ago mildred started a girls wrestling school in north hollywood while mildred was a great wrestler in her day she's in no physical condition to teach wrestling personally and the girls she trained were really exceptionally poor workers the olympic used two of them and found them so bad that the guarantee that the guarantee was paid after the first match and they were dismissed not finishing the five shows covered by the money let's stop there for a second so they were booked for the olympic a five match guarantee to use women wrestlers they were so bad that michael bell who was really famously you know tight with a buck he was like you know just keep the money don't come back yeah well and obviously they had him come in for a week the deal for five shows that would have been a week in the la territory and you know they said oh fuck we can't put this out in front of people again here just go away when the forum tried competition to the olympic mildred had several of her girls on the two cards the forum had before they shut down this double cross angered michael bell and he would not use mildred's girls even though she had acquired contracts on a couple of good workers trained elsewhere finally label did use a couple of milley's girls jane o' brian did quite well she had received training by panamah franco and things well right there it looked no further and things for jane look good then jane went to mexico where she picked up the mexican style too acrobatic to be believable to american fans jane also brought back a mexican girlfriend perla guanzalas and caused some sensation in the olympic by practically performing lesbian acts in the ring whatever lola wants lola gets sure i'll book you guys again just don't do anything outrageous can you just just drop the 69 spot she's been in that leg scissors for a long time hasn't she let's go back to this letter here jane also brought back a mexican girlfriend perla guanzalas and caused some sensation at the olympic by practically performing lesbian acts in the ring that finished her with labelle it's well known that except for panamah and war star all mildred's girls are lesbian later panamah and her daughter war star were used in bakersfield california after the match which was quite good moto that's mr. moto found out that war star was only 14 years old oh boy millie's gym is open to the public and has large signs on the store type front people walk in off the sidewalk watch the girls training and immediately become in quotes smart the girls bring their friends and families to watch and they get again in quotes smart too about a year ago millie made a deal with an l.a night spot to have her girls as entertainment the bout bouts in quotes ended with one girl having the top of her tights ripped off and exposing her breasts the commission stopped this performance after two shows let me stop for a moment but once again he sounds like a lot more fun than moola's girls were at the time there's a lot going on here war star and panamah are the only girls that weren't lesbian according to phil and of course war star was the 14 year old daughter of panamah is that an uncommon thing not necessarily the age although what for him not to be lesbians no for a mother daughter team to work together well no i've seen a few mother daughter teams work together but you're talking about wrestling not in the danie hodge sense i'm talking about in the wrestling sense hey i actually met uh one of danie's mothers and daughters and there was a granddaughter by that time but nevertheless stay tuned to the mid south schedule as we pick it back up soon that's gonna come into little rocking about may or so anyway back to this i don't know what was going on with the 14 year old girl um well i mean see in all seriousness and we're not trying to cast dispersions but sarah page her mother is is a wrestler also she was second generation they made the movie fighting with my family how old was debbie combs when she started working with her mother i would think she would have had to been you know it maybe she was she was certainly almost 18 maybe she was 17 in a state that didn't require a um you know a athletic commission license but she's working against her mother and riding with her mother's the mother was under a mask um but i've never heard of panamah franco or war war war store or war oh fine neither one of them have i ever heard of and so they were just it was local indy southern california lucha shows in a barn somewhere probably what are your thoughts on again this is phil miller he's a photographer he's not necessarily a promoter or a wrestler but the photographer is noticing a problem with people off the street and then their family's becoming smart to the business what do you think of that well i mean if it's if the photographer has to f*****g be the one to report this i've never heard of phil miller as a southern california wrestling photographer but maybe he was just doing some independent stuff and kind of on the you know you've heard of theo errant you've heard of some of the other california photographers um oh yes what was his name dan westbrook dan westbrook yes um michael aino well let's not go too far cowboy but you know that's what i'm saying is it's the same thing in especially in indy wrestling or as we used to call it in those days outlaw wrestling whether it's the east tennessee outlaws or the texas outlaws or the you know california outlaws it's just constant drama and bullshit and infighting and nattering at each other and trying to steal a town or steal a talent or just f*****g the other person around and you know and just trying to again poor mildred trying to regain the the glory day she didn't really train any of those girls the first go around she just sometimes you know those who can't do teach but those who teach are not necessarily the best doers but they're the best teachers well let's go back to this letter from phil miller in march of this year the front page of the sports section to the la times valley edition had several photos of millies girls and an article about the school in the article millie was quoted as saying that wrestling was a show and that the promoter determined who the winner in each match would be she also exposed all the wrestling terminology oh she's babyface heal go over kayfabe high spot wow etc etc so this this shows one of two things and i don't know which came first the chicken or the egg but it shows both why the established promoters didn't want to deal with her and or how mad she was that the established promoters weren't dealing with her did she say all those things because she got shut out probably or did they not want to use her because she was saying those things but i think it's the other way around yeah is this mario galento on the radio yeah it's like fuck you guys you're fucking me around and i've put up with this for 15 years well here's your goddamn deal in the enclosed photos note some of the signs unfair to local talent minimum of $50 per night this is disillusioning to fans who believe wrestlers have unusual backgrounds and earn thousands of dollars a week especially girls let's stop there that's an interesting takeaway the idea that them protesting exposes that wrestlers aren't glamorous successful making lots of money athletes yeah and exactly and that's what even you know they didn't need to put a figure on the you know minimum guarantees or whatever they didn't need to put a figure on but some of the guys and girls especially at the indie level in the business they don't understand they think that everybody because everybody in their social circle and everybody on their internet bubble thing is smart to the business and knows how much everybody makes and what you know how the business works and all this other stuff the average person especially in those days had no idea how much a wrestler made and to they did know that baseball players and football players and Joe Neymuth and these type of people they're on tv they're probably doing pretty good but here the pro wrestlers have to strike to get 50 bucks a night and then the average jackoff doesn't differentiate between oh but you know the nwa world champions in the main event in the olympic he's making a fortune and they're just paying these fucking goofy local girls 50 bucks it's just everybody's devalued back to this letter here about the only place Millie's girls can work is japan where they're used to make the japanese girls look good knocking them off millie has sent 14 and 15 year old girls with only three or four weeks training to japan for six or eight week tours the japanese girls just beat them in almost shooting matches it's crazy seeing all these terms in a letter in 1973 i don't know if i've ever really seen that before millie is also the world's best double cross artist frequently getting a 50 kickback from promoters then taking 33 and a third percent from the girls remaining 50 percent recently two of her wrestlers traveled to phoenix stayed overnight and got a grand total of 15 dollars each i think she's a real liability to wrestling and her operation should be put out of business you can check all the above info with jeff walton enclosed are a couple more photo stories well you have a jeff walt just happened to be the publicist for the la office that they were striking against but i'll shoot some more color soon and send the nags to you regards phil once again phil miller june 11 73 so they do unto others as they do unto you in january she's getting screwed around and in june she's screwing somebody else around that's a wrestling business here appears to be the master photo of her and jack feffer with her with him in the airplane spin oh good lord yeah she was a lot of stuff you could tell based on the handwriting it came from feffer here's a believer rippley's believe it or not with mildred berg mildred berg hands of city missouri champion woman wrestler never lost about can do 80 body bridges in succession believe it or not and i think that's about it because the rest of these here's a bunch of more photos and here's a bunch of billy wolf photos have you seen the photo of billy wolf playing cards by himself wasn't that reprinted in a a book at some point in the modern era it seems like i remember something about it but not specifically it may have been but there it is from the files mildred berg and you know in a period of time where people were going to learn a lot about her you know she really struggled later in life all because of everything that went to everything that people are about to see in the movie you know she didn't die right after the yeah no it wasn't over at that point when did she she she lived into the 80s did she not i think so let me double check that hold on i believe she did but that was the thing is after 89 wow 1989 after 1956 her only involvement or presence or impact in wrestling was doing that early 70s southern california wrestling school thing that didn't didn't take off she never was able to get back in anywhere except in japan because she was the girl when they discovered pro wrestling she was the female champion and had a reputation there like carl gotch so that was pretty much it well you know the interesting thing too from the two letters obviously a very polarizing figure at that point there were people that were appreciative of her i mean i assume this woman didn't write this declaration under duress and then there are people that are working with the office i guess that see her a completely other way and again i i look at it as someone who's struggling to take the one skill she has and make some money with it yeah and that was that was the thing is that she never was able to do anything again she was completely shut out after that split on a mainstream basis you know that was it let's get uh onto some other things here you know what why don't we start with from the files so we from the files because i got a a whopper of uh one here you used the word whopper before and you were tantalizing me thinking that you were gonna send me a coupon for free burger king or something but it's a whopper of a file from the the arcadian vanguard files of the wrestling news ring wrestling and the assorted assimilated products there within that's right and these are from the archives of the wrestling news it's actually two files one is the photo file one is the correspondence file which is massive for lil al vavisore oh my god who was the primary photographer for lee roy megurks wrestling company throughout the 70s well now and and he was based in louisiana yes and that is the time where megurk had not only his tri-states territory up there oklahoma missouri and uh what am i in arkansas but also he promoted louisiana and most of the from what i understand because i used to see and i was fascinated by that name but i used to see his work in the magazines and a lot of his work was done when the guys were in louisiana and he sold just about every picture he took to the wrestling news so i have one of just about everything and in the phone i don't know whether he's say whether he sold him to him or sent him to him well no i have the receipts so okay i could pretty much say we got the rights to these this one here is his car he had a station wagon and on the door of the station wagon he's posed here with his camera says lil al's wrestling photos port allen louisiana it has the phone number in the p o box world's largest supplier of color photos of professional wrestlers this he's driving around town in this car and then has him and his assistant my cl twin his photo assistant do you have any insight on his name because obviously being from south louisiana there's the the french and the cajun influence down there but lil li l al al vava sewer va va i believe s s e u e r e is that it it's uh e u e u r okay i added an e but what kind of fucking name is that well again i have a couple photos here from uh i'm guessing the w 1974 w f i a convention you see why they call me little it's him next to jim melby and norm kiteser and he appears to be a smaller man here's another photo where he appears to have a couple inches on tom berk he's standing next to danie goddard at the 1974 here's him and bill apteer looking over a camera so obviously he was in with all the hipsters of the day the cool cats but let's get past the photo file let's go to the correspondence file because this is some interesting stuff here about when it ends i guess is a way to look at it again this is a very very big file we're gonna go to 1979 and now at this point in time watts has started mid-south wrestling right in 1979 or is this when it's about to take place that is right mid-south has started here's a letter from norm kiteser to lil al june 4th 1979 dear lil al not dear al even then you can't just say hey al i've been holding this check for more money to come in and just wrote you another check which i will hold as well i wrote you a message on it but i decided to send it right away with this one my wrestling publications business is just not doing well and i have had to make some very tough decisions one is that i'm going to hold back on buying any more photos until the business picks up i've been trying everything to generate more business but nothing is working and the way the economy is sales are down everywhere and show no signs of changing therefore i have decided to try and keep things going with the material i have from new photos i get from those photographers who provide them to me in return for free advertising i will buy any photos you have already taken from me but please hold off taking any more as i don't have the budget to handle more well and and by the way also part of the thing was norman never paid that much to begin with but that's why you would sometimes see in the programs or of that particular period of time pictures from 1976 that he had the color separation made for already that he would just put that in and the guy might have a different gimmick or not look like that or whatever but sometimes it was behind the time he was stretching is what he was doing hopefully things will pick up again or something but for now i am cutting back and trying to survive this year has been the worst one ever for me and i just will try to ride out the situation and hope things pick up but as you realize i have left you waiting a long time for payment on your most recent shipments and with things getting worse i think it is best if you hold off on doing more work for me until i can afford to pay you he's asked him to do that about three times now hadn't he uh he did and he also wrote a very similar note on the actual check and then that was june 4th what was the check for by the way this check here is for 159 dollars holy shit that may be the biggest check he ever wrote and it has photos that were purchased uh 1433 randy tyler 1434 tom and lane versus cassidy and kid 1439 scoot 1440 stan lane 812 prince tanga uh 1444 one patent and sing with usher does that say usher jerry usher was a referee oh yeah that's exactly right and action uh charlie cook and black atlas black atlas rick flair cook and atlas brody diane divine with mad with as i said mad dog boyd with boyd it's not mad dog boyd that'd be boy peers and so on and so on it goes on the photos that were purchased a list of them the next letter from norman to al july 16 79 dear lil al he wrote lil la he actually wrote his name wrong here lil til dear lil la i wrote you over a month back to hold off on doing more new stuff for me since that time i have not received anything from you even though you said when you called more than a month ago that you had a package about ready for me and i agreed to buy it i hope you will send it soon before the stuff i wanted becomes outdated things that picked up a bit with the programs and i have a new deal he was he was still reporting news from the lincoln shooting at ford's theater at this time i don't think it would be too outdated things that picked up a bit with the programs and i have a new deal going which will give me control of a national newsstand wrestling magazine that's when he took over the ring wrestling enterprise and got on the newsstand with wrestling magazine and the ring's wrestling so i could again start buying new photos from you however there will have to be some changes as i just can't afford to buy a black and white eight by ten of every photo you need so here's my new proposal does that make sense no i think you can make out as well on it and it will give me what i need instead of any prints i need to have color slides ethno chrome transparent's trans that is with transparencies transparencies or whatever you call them i can make i can make the screen prints for the magazine and the color separations directly from them see that and and let me give some insight on this if he wanted to do stuff on the covers he needed a slide that was that reproduced better when making a color separation for the printing process i took some slides for him every so often but most of my stuff was on film because of the picture business that i had going and because my stuff looked fairly good anyway he would use my color pictures on the covers because the separation would come out okay but he still wanted slides for for most people my new proposal to you is this first i'll still pay you thirty five dollars for each trip to warlands for the super dome cards and oh for each trip to houston oh hold on wait a minute now god damn thirty five dollars even then if he shot if he shot four rolls of film on a superdome show there was thirty five dollars plus gas and going and coming and houston port island louisiana if it's in the new orleans area which i think it is south louisiana houston would be 200 miles at each direction and same thing but nevertheless well again that's not for photos that was actually to pay him just to go and cover the events then we can work the rest two ways first of all you would shoot color slide film then we can go one of two ways he just said you could send the film direct to me and i would develop it and of the pictures i needed i would make duplicate slides i would pay cost of developing and 50 cents for each slide i made a duplicate of and return the complete original set of slides to you that was option one that sounds like a lot of work that way you would be getting 50 cents per slide and since you told me that the eight by ten paper now cost you over a dollar a sheet and that the time and labor you put into making the eight by tens and the cost to you to develop the film would all drop off so you need to make more probably and i would have what i need god damn he's doing this shit himself i would full tone photo company was processing my stuff and for apparently around the same price i figure paying for developing and cost of duplicate slide and 50 cents to you would cost me about two dollars as now as now but then i would have exactly what i need for everything or my second proposal would be for you to develop the film and blow me my second proposal would be for you to blow me would be for you to develop the film and pick out what you want to send me and then charge me for what it cost you to develop i would then make duplicates and pay you 50 cents each and return the original as above either way is fine with me although i felt the first way might be better as you often get busy and if all you have to do is shoot the film and send it to me it might be easier for you and i would get what i need when i need it yours norm is there any response from al well here's another check uh well here's this is kind of where things change we'll get out in a second one more from norm to al september 10 79 dear lil al i finally got information on the new promotion setups for the area the way things stand right now i will not be able to buy more photos from you of louisiana wrestling but i'll buy the ones i agreed to on the phone last week mid south wrestling is the new promotion of louisiana and mississippi i will be doing the programs for them but they have picked out another photographer who they want to do all the photo work for that program mr megurk will continue to promote in oklahoma but as yet i have not made a deal with him to do the programs however that is outside of your area i don't know how things will work out for the future but that is the way they stand right now if there are any changes or any other projects where i can use material from you i will let you know but as things stand right now i will not be able to buy photos from you until there are some changes norm well and and hold on here and the reason for that for people whose heads are spinning with norman's kindly tone when watts took over from megurk lil al had been with the megurk operation for years at that point and he was probably uh heavily loyal to the megurk side and watts taking over louisiana and mississippi while megurk still had oklahoma arkansas and part of missouri wanted new people involved didn't want a mole in the locker room but if norm had still wanted to really do business with lil al he was already going to houston he was talking about houston houston at the time was affiliated with neither megurk nor watts so i wonder why that was not an option possibly because somebody had netled someone i have here a letter a handwritten letter from lil al vavisore it's stand lil al's photo service al vavisore p o box four five forty two avenue b port alan louisiana and the phone number December 2nd 1979 hi norm as you will note i write void on both tickets my failure delay and etc is your gain so he voided a couple of checks he got from norman note with three exclamation points i am trying an experiment i'll take two or three more weeks to complete if i'm successful i will call you immediately i thought you might be able to use these in the meantime he sent some photos do you still need only color slides for all your future photo needs didn't he just get fired a minute oh as per grizzly smith words to me didn't say smiths just grizzly smith words to me tommy has taken over from me i spoke to jack curtis and he told me you said i was very slow and you were not getting photos from me that is true underlined in red i won't try to deny truth and facts but remember i told you i told jack and i pleaded with grizzly for help and assistance to get photos i need all grizzly wants to tell me and this is a quote the boys don't want me to sell their photos aha then it says in red ink in parentheses who in the damn hell is the boys now let me stop there for a second have you been shooting photos for years around wrestling is it crazy to you that he wouldn't know that terminology well yeah of course and and i think he's saying it in terms of well who the hell are they like to you know i've been around here but the thing is the guys wanted to be in the magazines the guys wanted especially at bill after's magazines because they were newsstand they were national but guys wanted to be in the magazines and it didn't mind being in the programs most of the time but in places where for example i've done d ever once a while i get pricklish because when i was doing my magazine that norman kaiser was printing for me and had a picture of him along with the fabulous ones on the cover that was a picture that they weren't selling on the merchandise table that's why i put it on the magazine it would be exclusive but then dundee and some guys would go well why would they buy the picture of me when they could get the picture of me and the other guys for you know the guys didn't like that sometimes and if they had that's if they had the right to sell their own pictures in a place or just the idea that maybe they thought this guy lilal was making a fortune off of selling their pictures and they were pissy about it driving around in his wrestling car driving around in his red maybe he called a little too much attention to himself but maybe also it was just that they were telling him whatever they were telling him because watts wanted new fucking people he didn't want a megirk mole in the locker room let's go back to this what grizzly smith was telling him he even remarked i could not sell photos by mail anywhere if guys were in the area now i was told that buck roebly is also an owner of midsouth with watson curtis and whoever there's three question marks there well buck roebly at one time was the booker i don't know if it was during this particular period of time but he was never an owner of any of the company nor neither was grizzly but also alerted to fact that grizzly probably won't be here very much longer i was told here's a quote hang in there keep your mouth shut and ears open well now and actually is that when that grizzly got sideways with watts and started booking for jack curtis in mississippi in 79 was was that about that time i don't know it would have been earlier he would have been 78 i think would have been earlier yeah so so then grizzly well when did he send him the book for lee roe when did he send him the book for lee roe mcgirk would it have been maybe but was lee roe folded up well not by the end no watts got the rest than what late 82 early 83 yeah uh let's go back to this this isn't bigger text than everything else okay three exclamation points i suspect that grizzly smith and bill watz are the two key people i need to overcome but i don't know what is wrong or how to reach them to discuss a solution if you know won't you please tell me please underline i was told by someone that my ex-wife mike fortune the kid that worked for me and or tina sygfried stanky's wife or girlfriend may have had something to do with my problems especially ethyl and tina ethyl and tina now who would have thought that ethyl and tina would have been involved in this someone is locally trying trying underlined in red to reach grizzly smith and learn the truth and or problems that's it's so poor i'm sorry so three exclamation points no wonder he just took the pictures and didn't write the stories if i succeed in my trial and experiment will you be able to continue using color slides and whatever from me you can call me at night after seven p.m or i can call you collect you refuse and call me back waiting to hear from you soon wait a minute it's even better i'll call you collect you refuse it then call me back what kind of fucking bullshit is this anyway no no wondering like dealing with me i just sitting fucking pictures i didn't engage him in any sociological experiments with ethyl and tina if i call you up hang up the phone and then call me back and a special number and then give me the code number and knock three times and then say wink wink nod nod i'll know it's you and apparently with this he uh he sent photos so that's uh the story there of already are any of these letters put together with clippings from a magazine like a ransom note well no but if i go a little bit ahead one last interesting thing i'll hit you with or couple november 9th 1983 so four years later dear lil owl it was nice hearing from you by phone the other day i looked at your file and realized that it had been four years since i've written you there have been a lot of changes since then and and because by the way at that point round about the end of 1979 is when you stopped in any of the magazines or where you stop seeing lil owl photos most of which were taken in front of a curtain that hung somewhere i never even found out where it was but this big stage curtain that he would take for years everybody it may have been in the downtown building in new orleans with a good lighting setup i don't know but go ahead well you know let me stop for a second just because of that topic i mean you never experienced it but the idea that you're a regular photographer and just all of a sudden shut out now obviously it was a different promotion it was a change but it was all the same people it wasn't like watt started up with new people it was the same local promoters it was the same booker it was everything was run a lot of the same talent yeah can you even imagine if one day you showed up and you were told you can't shoot and you can't sell any of your photos anymore yeah well that would have been quite inconvenient and uh you know that was the thing is that in in tennessee there was never any interruption in ownership or change in administration like that but in a lot of cases in different territories when things happen things change like that guys would get on the outs or guys that were on the outs would get on the ends you know dav mclean ended up uh dick the bruiser son-in-law right he was the photographer one of the photographers no it was not roemer i'm sorry i don't think i don't think that would have worked out no scott roemer was bruiser son-in-law i'm sorry but scott roemer and dav mclean were both the ringside photographers in indianapolis and honestly about the time that that they got you know adults because they were teenage wonders like myself but their problem was is that the whole territory went out of business about the time that they got to be adults and they had to freelance shoot for a lot of the national companies that would come through indiana scott went around the world dav chose a different path with glow or whatever but anyway yeah you could be on the ends or you could be on the outs let's go back to this uh november 93 or november uh ninth 1983 letter from norm kiteser to lil al vavasor we are still doing programs for the mid-south wrestling association and also they are selling the wrestling news magazine at their matches but as i told you on the phone i am no longer in charge of buying new photos from the mid-south area they make the arrangements to obtain the photos and then send me what they want used as far as new material is concerned so i don't have a budget out of which i could buy new material i just thought i'd make that clear up front so that you were aware of that so you're not going to get fed out of the back of the meat wagon here as i told you on the phone any and all arrangements for you to again be a photographer in that area would have to be made through the promotion specifically bill watz and by the way i can testify to what they were doing there because the superdome programs from 1984 were printed by norm kiteser and the you know his his company pro wrestling enterprises but in some cases those programs that year i did some of the photography uncredited but they needed pictures the new baby faces they needed fresh stuff of hacksaw dug in they need the rock and roll express they needed terry taylor so i had my camera with me so we do a couple of days while i went out and shot magnum on a motorcycle out in alexandria louisiana somewhere out in the woods where people couldn't see us together and i brought a backdrop and did the rock and roll and some of the other guys in oklahoma city one afternoon and those ended up in the programs i hope things do work out for you but then in any case i've enclosed a copy of the most recent issues of my magazine number 106 and the mid-south program number 86 to come off the press which i hope you will find of interest sincerely norman kiteser and then you know norman writing these letters how much free time must he have had for himself i just talked about 79 up i have i mean it's a giant stack inches deep of willow correspond that's going back to the early 70s finally let's end with this one for from the files february 7th 1988 oh dear lil owl nice talking with you on the phone today i guess it's been five years since i heard from you the most recent address i have for the promotions you asked about are jim crocket promotions 421 bryer ben drive charlotte north carolina 28209 titan sports mcman promotions 81 holly hill lane greenwich connecticut 06830 and finally fred ward promotions oh my god 108 front street columbus georgia 31901 i hope these addresses are still correct as i have not had any recent direct dealings with any of those promotions i've also enclosed a copy of the wrestling news number 124 which is the most recent issue i did norman so do you think lil owl called him and said hey you think i can get a job with any of these other promotions because crocket was run in louisiana at that point beyond the actual business of selling photos and i'm assuming he did all right is it something you can get addicted to the idea of shooting from ringside and being there in the middle of you know you're the only thing separating the fans and the wrestlers is kind of you're in that little zone where you could feel the heat you feel everything well yes i mean that was it was fun and you got the best seat in the house but i think in this case here because like i said lil owl disappeared i don't know what he did for a regular living he may have been a regular photographer or do other things or whatever was going on with ethyl and tina i don't know but if norman keiser didn't hear from him for five years and all of a sudden he's asking for addresses for a crocket who at that time was on tbs that just bought mid-south and was running louisiana vince who was national and fred ward with that because because well i'm thinking that maybe lil owl didn't keep up with all the goings on in wrestling and maybe he had been to because columbus georgia if you were going to go from louisiana to the georgia territory you'd hit south georgia making in columbus first maybe he'd been up there before worked for fred ward but fred ward had been out of the business since 1983 so it sounds to me like he was trying to fall back on something if he was needing a part-time or a full-time job or whatever and he's seeing all the wrestling on national tv and think oh shit you know and maybe i could get somebody to actually pay me to do this but but it doesn't it doesn't sound like he was addicted or he would have been beaten down everybody's door i when i went to louisiana i thought i'll finally see who this fucking lil owl vavasur is and he was at never at a show never darkened the doorstep didn't take photos didn't introduce himself to anybody his name was never mentioned i blame ethyl i blame tina sick freed stankies tina we have around him sick freed stanky never met him great name but i never met him well here it is inside mid-south drama that you never knew you needed to hear about from the files well jim let's let's get away from your mother-in-law and let's get to that's what i'm trying to do before we get to raw which more than likely because of the extra pay-per-view review here this week on the show we won't get any questions it'll probably be raw but some classic wrestling before we get there i have here a file jim from the files yes yes this is a file from the wrestling news archive which comprises the various correspondence and photos of norm kiteser pro wrestling enterprises wrestling review the rings wrestling wrestling monthly uh major league wrestling what am i forgetting there's a whole bunch of other publications too yes this is one of the big files in here the pat malone file oh my god and because i swear to you i am working on writing in my spare time ha a piece on pat malone oh this is very seraphite time magazine uh no it's actually it's it's for to look it look is coming back and no for something that i'm working on uh i was writing some some passages on pat malone and i was thinking you know i'm gonna run this by brian before i show it to anybody and see what he thinks of it once i'm finished with it and here you are with a full file on the man well there's multiple parts of this file there are two different files of photos going back to seemingly the beginning of his career and then him as an old man backstage at the shows is a picture him and roi welch picture him and norm kiteser this is the correspondence file i have here and are there any pictures of him as the green shadow i believe so but i can go back and check because okay not only do i want to see him and we'll do that off the air but also scott teal in his research the green shadow was so mysterious and folks the reason why i'm writing a piece about him was he was one of the and i think we've mentioned it on the show one of the biggest draws in the history of wrestling that absolutely nobody talks about or remembers and it's that's sad but scott teal when he's researched his nashville book and noxville book there are very few publicity pictures or any kind of pictures of pat malone as the green shadow still existing but we didn't account for your files that you have curated there that have been around since the 1960s i'll see what i have again there's a lot of stuff here and this is one of the big files and a lot of correspondence here's a uh because of course pat as we've talked about in later years was responsible for selling the magazines the wrestling news in the arenas around the tennessee territory including getting the little kids hey boy come here sell ten of these magazines you can get in watch the matches yeah and i have here this a letter from pat malone typed to norm kites or november 10th 1976 please find and close the cashier check any amount of five hundred dollars half of the amount i owe you i will send you the balance which is five hundred dollars in a few days i want to thank you i think he means thank for the copy of the letter i don't think it will create any problems for me i will call you soon go ahead and get ready for me the 2500 magazines issue number 39 thank you for everything sincerely yours pat malone and i guess he would be i have a letter i'm too yeah and if i if i recall because the wrestling news was the magazine as we talked about that was sold in the arenas back at that time i think when i started going i think the first issue i got was like issue number 30 maybe it was it might have been the late 20s early 30s and that was in spring of 1974 so around that time that may be one right about the time that he started using some of my pictures also but he was getting 2500 of the magazines that he could sell around the territory and i believe the price at that time was i want to say two dollars but maybe it was a dollar but i think it was two dollars and it's coming on the heels of this a letter from norm kiteser to pat malone november fifth 1976 to pat malone ezel road in nashville dear pat mr nick gulis called me yesterday and he was unhappy about issue number 38 of the wrestling news he said that armstrong and fuller had left the area and diamond was not important enough for a cover and also that don green had left the area and was working opposition to him and that he didn't like having any photos of green what i i hold hold on hold on because the diamond he's talking about was buddy diamond who was a i remember this magazine who had just done a deal where he was becoming the private and gerry lawlor's the general's army lawlor's army and fuller and bob armstrong had indeed left and gone back to noxville and don green was working for the the company that luthes had spearheaded with uh who was it at time it was was it buddy lee or was it danie davis not my danie davis but the nashville danie davis that was back in the uwa in 1976 yeah that's 76 yeah yeah so that was so yeah he featured all these guys that fucking nick was on the outs with for some reason or another anyway to make a long story short he wants me to check out with him who goes on the cover each time from now on also he said either i or you should check out with him any stories about his area i put in i covered all he wanted in a long letter i wrote back to him i've enclosed the copy for your information only he wants me to use a photo he is sending me of tojo yamamoto george goulas jerry jarrett and jackie fargo on the front cover of number 39 and that cut that color picture that he had mike shield's take i believe at tv studio in nashville they actually right as i was getting started taking pictures all the other stuff was eight by ten black and white and sometimes not even on photo paper just printed but this one was printed like real card stock and in full color of nicks four stars jerry jarrett tojo yamamoto jaggy fargo and george goulas and they had that at every merchandise stand go ahead i'm sorry and to use the one you sent me of tommy rich on the back cover since mr goulas is the boss i will go along with what he says and check out all the stories with him from now on i don't think this system will be hard to live with and i hope you think the same i did want you to know what happened on this so i sent you this letter and a copy of what i wrote back to him let me know if this will create any problems for you or anything i think everything can work out okay and i could satisfy him and give you a good magazine to sell so issues from the office and also the picture of tommy rich as i recall from the back see a lot of these pictures were mike shield's was taken them because mike shield's at time would take po still pictures back in the mid-south coliseum locker rooms and then he was doing the video the film camera for the matches and as i said i was just starting in louisville to take pictures the other end of the territory but pad would just get pictures and send them in and norm kites are as we talked about would credit photo by pat malone he never picked up a camera in his life but that that was pat's interest in and here's the kicker six months not even after this letter jared and gulis would split and pat went with jared and because pat was pat and roi welch had been close friends since the 1920s and they were intertwined with training the wrestling bears and roi welch when he established the booking office he's the one that made pat malone the green shadow and pat malone put nashville on the wrestling map for roi and noxville he did incredible business and birmingham so the loyalty was with pat and roi when jared split off from gulis pat still came to louisville and still went to memphis he just stopped going to nashville because nick kept nashville and because tini had been in the office with nick and roi and jerry had been roi's protege pat felt more loyalty to them rather than nick who was not always well liked by everybody nick who's like the point is pat was sending into the magazines yeah pat he didn't have to worry about what nick thought and then i don't know whether nick was selling many copies of the wrestling news in nashville chattanooga and birmingham because that's all he had left and he wouldn't have those for two more years well jim the next letter i have here correspondence this is from norm kiteser to pat malone dated december 20th 1976 dear pat i received your check for 500 hours which pays for what you owed on number 38 thank you for number 39 i still have not located the 400 copies that were lost by my printer but we'll keep looking for them if i find them i will send them immediately but for right now your bill stands at 840 for 2100 copies of the wrestling news number 39 nwa east edition at 40 cents each i have the two slides you sent me i'll have to get prints and negatives made from them in the future please send me color negatives rather than color slides as they work much better just use now knowing that he didn't take any of these photos it's funny to me yeah just use color negative film rather than color slide film and see that's because in in that era of printing to make the color separations they like negatives but i couldn't send him any of my negatives because i god damn needed him to you know print the pictures here so they had to to deal with it now as far as noxville is concerned i got a call from mr dick steinborn who i met while there he wrestles there and he also handles the program sold at the matches for the area he was interested in selling magazines for me i told him you are the exclusive distributor for magazines for that area and that any deal would have to go through you i know that you sold some magazines to the ring many who stopped to see you i'm not exactly sure what he was trying to say there the ring man who stopped oh the ring man i bet you you know what it's crossed out after that i thought it was a why who's the ring man well whoever was hauling the ring see here's the thing pat never went to noxville in the in the modern era to sell magazines that was wasn't part of really either of jared's territory or nick and roye's territory remember kazanna ran it till 1974 ron fuller bought it and opened up southeastern wrestling and since this is a couple years later dick steinborn at the time was wrestling as i think mr wrestling or was he the gladiator under a mask at that point but also he was a photographer was shooting some of the pictures and helping less thatcher with the programs and things while less was doing the tv show so they were probably wanting to sell some of the magazine the same thing but i bet you whoever was hauling the ring was it mac mcmurray the referee who was partners with ron or somebody had stopped in to see pat they were going through nashville maybe hey let me take some of those and sell them or whatever and he sold him to something like that all right well back to this uh the ring man who stopped to see you maybe it might be possible for you to make some sort of deal with steinborn i know he does all the programs and handles that end of the business as ron fuller told me this he might be able to put the magazine on sale using the same people uses to sell the program what i couldn't give him was a price for the magazine why don't you offer him the same price you sold those other magazines for if you are interested this might be a way to get more sales up there and have the magazine on sale there all of the time and yet save you from having to make the drive down there see that that's the i think norm is confused about the geography of the state of tennessee and what territory was what and he was thinking because pat was exclusive for the tennessee territory he didn't realize that there was two already in fixed to be three different territories in the state of tennessee if you are interested in this mr steinborn's telephone number is and he has two different phone numbers listed here i'm not sure as i wrote it down twice and they were different also i had an idea which might help sales up there and also give nick gulis what he wants to explain my idea i've enclosed a copy of another edition of the wrestling news called the stranglehold edition if you will notice we use the same covers for the stranglehold edition as we do for the a w a edition look inside the back cover of the magazine enclosed and you will see this we just fold the cover the opposite way so that each area gets someone from there on the front in that way we could use the same magazine and covers for the nashville and noxville areas but staple the magazines the opposite way so that each area had their man on front right and and also with these different editions they had n w a east n w a west stranglehold for the w w a in indianapolis uh a w a edition the first you know when you print a magazine it's stapled in the middle so the first eight sheets 16 pages on each side would be the same thing and then they would insert new copy just for that specific edition of the magazine for the pages in the middle and then staple it like that yeah they reused a lot of shit he was a master at cost cutting was norm kiteser this is all just ideas and maybe you don't think it is worthwhile however i think it might work out if you want to contact mr steinborn and work out a deal with him on the wrestling news you can if not just forget it i gave you the deal so do what you want so do what you want i guess that covers it for now i'll be planning out the next issue soon we'll call mr gouliss about what he wants on the front cover and go from there thanks norm and i have a seemingly the reply from pat malone again type november uh excuse me december 22nd 1976 dear norman i just received your letter in magazine in clothes please find a cashier check in the amount of 500 dollars on issue 39 at this time i'll have a balance of 340 that i owe and i will send as soon as possible as far as the noxville side i intended to go there and have a talk with mr dick steinborn and fuller but they change every few weeks of who is in charge as you might not know they have a new booker or a man in charge every few weeks that makes it hard for me to do business with any one person but i intend to go over there we'll call you in a few days we wish you and your family a merry christmas and a happy new year thank you for everything sincerely yours pat malone and two questions and number one i wonder who the revolving dora bookers was at that point in time this is 76 yeah well dick steinborn bob bob armstrong robert fuller at that point um ron fuller himself ron but the second thing is is that hand sign pat malone yes it is is it look like kind of neat handwriting it does okay that's that's his wife sammy is typing at four and i'm not like pat was an invalid but he didn't give a shit to sit down at a fucking typewriter this is a goddamn old shooter that used to fucking carry a knife in his boot to fend off the fucking fans that were trying to attack him his fucking knuckles and the calcium deposits were like golf balls he wasn't sitting down at a typewriter sending christmas greetings to norm kiteser when he was 77 years old his wife sammy was typing at they even typed out the envelopes because i have the envelope here post dated december 22nd 76 nashville tennessee to mr norm kiteser medelia minnesota and then in red it's typed out attention important make sure it gets to the right department there uh you got me actually interested i'm just gonna go a little forward just to see if there is anything about the fallout with gulz and i can find anything from late april early may 1977 and by the way here's here's another while you're looking at that another little factoid that i've come up with and one of these days we'll talk about why i've been doing this research but pat malone as the green shadow was responsible for as the top heel for popping the wrestling business in nashville in 1940 and 41 when roi welch had first taken over and established a booking office there and in those days they had the matches at the old hippodrome which was a big they had no sports arena in nashville the hippodrome was a big roller skating rink with permanent bleacher seats and they had concerts they had political conventions and rallies any kind of uh intertah live entertainment that was the place that in indoors you went to nashville in the in those days and if they were selling and jamming what we believe scott teal has tried to investigate this and you know i've heard christine jaret talk about it but the the building supposedly could seat about 2000 people but if everybody was standing and they would do this all the time you could get almost 3000 people in this thing and their tickets were like an average of a little bit less than a dollar but if you'd use the old time promoter's formula and there were six guys on these cards and pat malone was in the main event and he was either wrestling the booker or the booker's brother the head of the office he was best friends he was figured in he had a run there of years if they drew a 2500 house and you use the wrestling the old time promoter's formula that sam muchnik used to use you can see pat malone this is where i'm going with this getting payoffs in 1941 out of the nashville hippodrome and 200 in fucking today's money equals like 4000 so these old fucking shooters set this office up and roi kept it between himself and his brother herb and while bill caney and text riley and a few of the other tennessee mainstays for the next 15 20 years and these guys were making what even today in the wrestling business would be considered legitimate money of the equivalent of thousands of dollars a week it was a fucking amazing if you go back and look at this that far what they were able to do with no television no interstates and in the middle of the depression and world war two but bring us back to 1977 hey let's go to here we'll hit on a few things it may be slightly out of order because this again this is a massive file a paperwork and some of this in this area seems to be it's all there but out of order chronological uh in the chronological sense i guess here's a letter from norm kiteser to pat malone february 16 77 nice talking to you on the phone today hope that you are feeling well and your health is good in the future i'm sorry that issue number 40 was delayed but i wrote mrs jarrett a note and asked her to decide who they want on the cover for issue 41 by march 1st and if they want someone other than a lullar to decide by then so that i can then get the next issue out on schedule i've already received some color stuff from dick steinborn of boys in the southeastern area so we should have no problems there i'm shipping you this week $1,000 for 2,500 copies of number 40 the wrestling news nwa east edition at 40 cents each i guess that covers everything right now hope the magazines arrive quickly set him a bitch about five years later he was charging me about 80 cents for my magazines uh here's another one from norm on march 2nd 77 just a note to let you know that jerry lullar and jimmy golden will be on the front cover of wrestling news number 41 which will come out in time i assure you i'm then closing the slides from color photos and issue 40 and then see it goes a little out of order here but here's march 28 77 from pat malone dear norman and close find the check for the amount of $400 balance due on issue 40 i would like very much in the future norman if you would let me know who you are using on the front and back cover as i sell most of the magazines in this territory if i don't get a picture on the front and back cover of someone from east tennessee i can't sell the books over there let me know it once when to expect the books thank you pat malone it's a little terse uh but if i go a little bit forward here this is where i said they're a little out of order here's a letter from pat malone to norm kiteser may 25th 1977 oh dear norman i received the magazines i will send you a check in a few days for at least half of them i'm gonna tell you something i guess miss christine told you don't use anything more of nickle as boys and what i think he means end it says are but there's a lot of misspellings here and what scott teal sends you as we don't work together anymore but be sure and always have some good pictures of the east tennessee boys which is fullers on the front and back cover also jerry jarrett's boys can i can i give some insight on that yeah please also because when he said we don't work with nick anymore don't use scott teal unfortunately was the suffering for that because scott had moved to nashville from florida in the early 70s and had been doing the slamogram programs for nick and taken pictures of nicks guys in the nashville end while mike sheels did a lot of stuff for memphis as i said and when jerry split off from gulis it became the jerry welch wrestling company because even though roi was god roi died about right about that time anyway did he not uh but buddy fuller who was edward welch had agreed to partner with jerry so that jerry could use the welch name and you know buddy had kind of taken over at that point the the the the head of the family status since roi was in ill health and the other brothers had retired and so it from gulis welch wrestling it became the jerry welch wrestling company because buddy fuller was involved and obviously says buddy's son ron owned the noxville territory jared and ron were working together bop and talent back and forth because it was all in the family and neither one of them was particularly beholden to or you know enamored of nick so they were nick was in the middle in nashville but the memphis on the west end and noxville on the east end was trying to squeeze him and it also didn't want his boys to get any publicity in the magazine and scott teal had a good relationship with jerry lawler and jerry lawler secretly had scott teal do the programs when they first broke off and then jerry jaret uh put the kibosh on that because scott had the long time scott teal's the one person doesn't say a single bad word about nick gulis said he was always honorable with him always treated him good no michael michael st john will not say anything bad about nick too because he did the same thing nick treated him like he was his tv announcer nick you know usually try to take care of the people in the inner circle in the office but the the the opinion amongst the wrestlers varied but uh as michael st john said i'll tell you this i can't remember what it was but he came on a point where st john maybe his was it his wife's sick he told me the story but uh he just happened to mention it and nick gotten his safe and gave him some large amount of money in cash and said hey boy don't worry about it but that's the thing nick even he was still planning on being in business you know forever because he'd already done that for 40 years why wouldn't he do it forever he had a new office building built in nashville after the split with jared and paid cash for it like a couple hundred thousand i'm talking cash that he had in his fucking safe in in his old office the they the old-time wrestling promoters they kept ludicrous amounts of cash around well back to this letter this will be the final letter of this edition of from the files and close you will find the program from memphis and louisville you can see the boys we use in jerry jarrett's towns i suppose you get material from east tennessee of the boys who work for four thanking you i will close sincerely yours pat malone yeah thanking you i will close was not a a sandoff that pat would come up with on his oh my god it has a little too here's the next letter june thanking you i will call hello yeah i love that that's great pat pat's favorite expression was boy i'll either fight you fuck you or run you a foot race who took this photo paul orn i'm sending you a couple of programs you will see orndorf in front of a white orndorf in front of a white concrete wall either he's got the the old southern jr heavyweight title belt on or perhaps he's in he's in either short trunks or blue warm-up pants it doesn't have the photo here but it says i'm sending you a couple programs you will see a story on paul orndorf all in caps i would like for to use it in the magazine with the negative i hope you have received by now i would like for you to use the picture of orndorf on the front cover along with fuller every time the word end is supposed to be here it says r almost like a big here sir or someone from the east tennessee side be sure and have them on the cover let me hear from you thanking you i will close that is my new favorite side off thanking you i will close but we will close there with this obviously this is a massive file this is 77 and it goes until this i didn't realize he was still doing stuff 86 yeah 87 88 so it goes until 1988 and here is i think that's the year he died and here is his obituary from the paper oh my god march 15 okay oh i'm sorry well i was just gonna say well you and i got off the air got to do some business you'll get your files will get a big plug in what i'm producing but i need that information go ahead well here's a march 15 1988 do you know his real name because i'm about to say it well edgar b davies is the consensus of what most people think his real name was here it says edgar brian davie 87 a retired professional wrestler who used a professional name of pat o brian died tuesday at southern hills hospital after a brief illness davie who wrestled in nashville for several years wearing a mask and using the name the green shadow won the title of world light heavyweight wrestling champion in 1936 funeral services and that goes into the information there a native of carbondale illinois mr davie was the son of the late mr and mrs charles davie good lord he first came to this area in the early 1930s and wrestled at the old hippodrome drawing turnaway crowds he had wrestled in new york city and other cities in this country and around the world later he promoted wrestling in miami and south florida after his retirement about 20 and by the way that that was in that was in the 40s between 1945 and 40s 44 and 47 oh no way wow roi welch had taken over tampa and lake mary or lake worth a lot of towns in florida florida wrestling was on its ass and not drawing this was before cowboy luttroll and at various points he sent pat down there not only to wrestle as the green shadow but to run towns and book for him and even sent nick down for a year out of nashville and it was too far away didn't work and so they came back because nashville and tennessee was making more money but they were the promoters in florida for most of florida uh right after world war two right before luttroll after his retirement about 20 years ago mr davie continued to stay close to the sports world in recent years he had worked as a guard at the sports arena at the state fairgrounds survivors include a daughter patsy davie nashville three sons clied davie tampa edgar davie nashville and patrick davie alexandria virginia 18 grandchildren and seven great grandchildren so there it is it doesn't say which paper this is from but i'm sure it's a net by the way he he was still he did fill in matches every once in a while in the early 1960s when he was past 60 and he was still taking ginger the bear around in the 60s and i think to the early 70s it was he was fucking a man he had the legendary stories that nobody got more heat than the green shadow as far as with the fans there are numerous instances of the fans rioted the fans tried to pull the green shadow out of the locker room green shadow was hit with over the head with a broken bottle and slashed in the face he was stabbed he had a fight with he was arrested for kicking the shit out of a fan everywhere he fucking went i and there's no video there's no film there was no such thing as television there's no audio recordings there's very few pictures but he was inventing all of the but he and roi welch inventing or the first one to do all of the fucking heel wrestling tricks that have come to be blasé in front of these people they'd never seen him have soap in the eyes we're going to lynch this motherfucker so he was a fucking saltiest old son of a bitch who never walked the earth here's a letter from pat malone again very nice handwriting i'm guessing it's his wife this is all hand written informing norm kites are of falling and breaking his right hip on march 30th this will end with this i i just bumped into this there was one time he was in the hospital in the 70s and teaney got mad because she had called up and she had asked for pat malone's room and oh i'm sorry uh edgar davie and so what does he have two names it's a professional name she was like she didn't want anybody to think anything about wrestling was you know phony or whatever it's a professional name you go ahead well we'll end with this this is in the file this is dated january 10th 1987 it's signed sincerely christine jarrett handwritten dear norman please believe me when i say that my grandson jeff jarrett is number one box office it is not just from a grandmother talking whenever you see fit to put his pictures on the front page you can automatically send me 700 magazines i hope you are well and i trying to bribe jeff's way on to cover the magazine and i wish for you all great things in the new year assigned sincerely christine jarrett that's the whole letter believe me when i say he's number one put him on the cover i'll buy 700 copies well you never know what you'll find in the pat malone file this has been from the files pat malone let's end today with four end in today there's still about another seven hours of it left but i'm in favor of calling it here we might miss the severe storm well first let's do some from the files and i said i'll do this i have the eddie gilbert file here from the wrestling news archive and uh oh you have denises which is actually apropos because the dark side of the ring on eddie gilbert is about to air for the eddie gilbert memorial show in 96 that you and i both went to let's just say it says jerry the king lawler and the official thing not jerry thinking all her thinking lullar full page add 150 dollars half page 100 quarter of a page 75 or a business card size 50 dollars payable to the national wrestling alliance that's not uh the typical thing that you see in here but let's uh there's a lot of pictures eddie sent in a lot of pictures of himself there were eight by tens there's a letter to jim melby jim thought i would send you a new color photo of myself thanks very very much for the photo on the front issue of review and story also thanks for the programs you've been sending home thanks again your friend eddie gilbert eddie loved to send pictures to all the magazines because he was promoting himself he was you know there's nothing wrong with that he wanted to make sure that if he was going to get some press he wanted to cooperate and also unlike any other wrestler by and large he had been schmoozing with all these people for years they all knew who he was before he broke into the business yeah there's another one jim hello old buddy how's everything going fine i hope here's some things on Puerto Rico we won the north american tag titles from moondogs june 5th kangaroos don kent and john heffernan who's john heffernan that was oh god damn it managed by al costello or the world's hei well the original kangaroos were al costello and roi heffernan and then heffernan went back to australia or whatever he did and costello had a couple of different partners maybe not as kangaroos then found don kent and costello and kent were the kangaroos from what say 69 70 through the early 70s and then when don kent went out as a single uh costello was a manager for a little while but then he kept putting groups of kangaroos back together and i'm trying to think john heffernan was somebody else under another name well obviously and i can't remember what other name he used but in port urica would that have been 1980 the date on that because had they just left it would have been 80 or 82 it doesn't have a date or a year on this no tommy and they won the tag team title meaning tommy and eddie gilbert they were the tag team champions in port urico uh in between runs in tennessee i believe and the moon dogs that would have been maybe it'd been 82 ish because the the moon dogs had a run first in the w w w f that's where they got the gimmick and then went to port urico i think i sound like i'm playing guess the program now tell norman i said hello maybe we'll get together sometime like we did in canza city take care your friend eddie gilbert and again lots and lots of pictures here lots of rare pictures pictures i've never actually seen before and then some of these look like yours this has to be yours yeah this is yours lots of setup photos of eddie there's lots and lots of photos that you can't lots and lots of photos of it you can't really read uh hold on let me go back here here is a big file i have a letter from norm kites or to eddie gilbert oh this may answer your question slightly july 27 1982 mr eddie gilbert st tropey apartment 3 f i love verda i believe that's how you would say it who knows Puerto Rico 00913 dear eddie it was nice hearing from you thanks for the program and photos i will see to it that they are used in our publications the program is also of a help in compiling area close-ups i was glad to see that you and your dad were being put over evidently you guys are popular with the fans winning the straps at all how long do you plan on staying in Puerto Rico also what is the attendance averaging i've heard from other guys that Puerto Rico is a fun place to work if you can make the money it must be nice to at least catch some beach sack some beach action excuse me Puerto Rico not known as a well-paying territory jim well no if you can make the money that's i mean it it could be good or bad and i don't have any personal experience down there thankfully and on purpose i wouldn't go to go to Puerto Rico and be set on fire by those people but uh i've talked to a bunch of guys and dutch book down there for ever in eons and what they would do is they would let's say you were supposed to make 750 dollars one week but they'd give you 500 they say oh we're doing a little slow we'll give you the 250 next week well next week you're supposed to then make a thousand well but then they'd give you 600 and they say oh we'll give you a 400 next week and you would get so in the hole on what they owed you that they were trying to catch up but they weren't catching up properly that it would be a situation where you couldn't afford to leave their company and then and you couldn't afford to give your notice because you knew if you gave your notice that they'd fuck you on the rest of the money so you kind of hung around trying to chase that carrot and that's how they kept guys from leaving the island well back to this letter to eddie gilbert the people that we do business with all seem to be doing pretty good the last superdome show did their all-time dollar record i don't recall the exact figure but remember the crowd was 22 000 plus of course the wwf remained strong buddy rose is next up for backland around the horn i'm glad to see him getting the push i've known him since before he got in the business we are now doing programs for joe blanchard and san antonio is doing okay too they've been running some real big cards in amarillo and houston recently bachwinkel versus the junkyard dog set the all-time dollar record for a houston house show how big was dog in houston by the time you got there giant uh because he had before watz annexed houston when paul split off from getting his talent from the san antonio office bosh could still bring in individuals that he wanted so he'd bring in some of the hispanic stars for that group of the audience and he'd bring in dog or he'd bring in mascaras or he was using bachwinkel as the awa champion and he got dog before that watz as i said you know took over houston so dog was already made by the time the rest of the mid-south gas got there but yeah it was definitely big and i don't know what the record dollar figure would have been at that time but i know that when we when we got there at the end of 83 the best house for our first couple of appearances in houston was the same thing was dog was on a card i think against bachwinkel but then later on that year we jacked up ticket prices we did 89 eight for the scaffold match with the rock and roll and 102 grand for the last ampede i think the best they had done beforehand was like in the 70 000 range locally verne and walley are having their best year ever we have been selling out the st paul civic center on a regular basis which is 18 000 when you sell standing room i've enclosed the latest card so that you could see who is working here what do you think of that main event it was one of the few times i've seen four babyface work in a tag team match let alone on top and draw a sellout no less who was this the match itself was excellent the finish was santana being counted out after missing a flying body block on brunzel i think that was the high flyers versus tito and rick martel i bet you're right which the footage i've seen i think of them in san francisco is incredible i'll close for now but remember if there's anything specific then i can do for you just let me know please give my regards to your father for me your friend jim melby once again july 27 and boy he's right in in 1982 everybody was doing great business for the most part and jared 1981 was the biggest year that jared had had in business since he'd started his company because of lawlor's comeback and all those giant houses in minfaçal year well that's gonna wrap up from the files like i said uh just looking through there's a lot of picture i'm trying to find anything with writing there's so many pictures here but there we go and uh that was a letdown that was a complete letdown i should have brought the other file that i wanted to but i didn't you know what i won't make i won't make any comments in case you want to edit anything later oh boy hold on this is a mess ladies and gentlemen brian last has been lost in the san andrius fault if he was all right take two we're gonna have an additional from the files today surprise sneak attack this is from the files this file is labeled the tommy rich fan club let me see if it goes this way or this way it starts okay i think it goes both ways october 11 1982 norm kaitzher sends out two letters one to carol barry west columbia south carolina dare carol i understand you operate a fan club for tommy rich we would like to include it in our fan club section in the wrestling news and close it's an application for you to complete so we may do this sincerely yours norman kaitzher same day a letter to caron langley fairborn ohio dear caron i received your letter concerning the tommy rich fan club since miss barry has not filled out an application for listing it in our fan club section since i have taken it over i've written her for information about her club and i will let you know what she says when i receive a reply from her i don't know what that's oh okay this explains and and for the people who don't even understand this whole thing in the old days in wrestling going back to the 50s fans if if a guy was wrestling in the georgia territory some fan from columbus georgia would say i want to run your fan club and be the fan club president and the magazines would actually promote this if you provided them with a permission slip from the particular wrestler being honored signed that okay it's okay for this person to run my fan club which guys would do all the time or whatever you know they didn't give a shit but you would have different ones because the way the guys moved around until you got the real established fan club like in the early 70s when it was probably the biggest deal it had been everybody knew that oh this guy the paid role morality fan club is run by so-and-so or whatever and uh otherwise you just get them when guys switched switched territories other people would want to start them in the the other meanwhile the other fan in the other territory would lose interest because the guy left so it was always moving around well seems this was prompted by a letter to norm kiteser from caron langley october 8th 82 i'm writing to you concerning a fan club in particular tommy wildfire rich fan club run by carol barry in february 82 i sent six dollars yearly dues to miss barry for what was supposed to be monthly bulletins membership card etc etc in april i received a very nice letter from the west columbia postal service containing the sorry the rich is very nice cursive it is hard to read everything the remnant of what i had been a packet of pictures and had and who knows whatever it's hard to read a little bit of the sorry folks they asked me if possible to tell them what the contents were so that they could try and find them since i had no since i had no way of knowing what it had contained i returned the remnant and postal service letter to miss barry hoping she would replace it i as of yet have received no response in may i received volume one issue nine february march 1982 it was very nice in august i received volume two issue 10 june july 82 it was also very nice it included some brad mcfarland photos of tommy i still have received no membership card i wrote to miss barry offering to help her with her problem tommy comes to ohio at least once a month and i could help her out with pictures etc i also asked for the priceless of mcfarland's pictures but i've still received no reply poor brad mcfarland being drug into this he uh the by the way the world's only deaf pro wrestling photographer he was also a manager handsome johnny bradford but he it took great pictures i have written to miss barry a few times asking her to please send the membership card the woman simply does the woman simply does not answer letters from the members frankly i'm beginning to be steamed i'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt i know that tommy rich hasn't been on a southern tour for quite a while and it must be a pain to gather information on someone excuse me she has no access to but couldn't she at least send my card she's making herself look bad would it be possible for you to contact her and maybe get this mess worked out also do you have any addresses for other tommy rich fan clubs maybe i'll have better luck with one of them i would really appreciate your help on this matter thank you read for reading this i hope to hear from you soon caron langley so then and that's the thing is that people would take this task on and then it would be over their heads and they've got a real life for their teenagers or whatever but you'd normally you'd get you know a membership card and you get the bulletins which were z rocks you know staple together you know do it yourself type of things but brad i've told you how i became the bob armstrong fan club president haven't i before how you did know because and i won't mention this guy's name because he has actually written me in modern times like in the last several years that he's up in the north now and i do have a successful business but i had i joined all the fan clubs that were plugged in the in the magazines because i wanted to get like autograph pictures or i got one of larry's abisco from 1980 or whatever and and the bulletins and all the stuff so i joined everything well one of my join was the bob armstrong fan club and this guy and down in akworth george outside atlanta he was the president and he did the bulletins and you know they were all the bulletins of the fan most of them were looked like fan club bulletins but every once while you'd come across a real sharp one but anyway i got about four or five or six of these and and then he wrote me a letter and said hey would you like to take over the fan club i've you know don't have time for it i'll send you the entire club treasury and if you want to do this i said okay because i wanted to do the bulletin right i'm a frustrated writer magazine publisher whatever this is my first shot at that i'm am i 16 yet maybe whatever so and and bob also had just started in the tennessee territory so he's going to be around here so i said okay i'll do it and he sent me the entire club treasury is like two dollars and 77 cents and i was so i started printing these doing these bulletins with my friend walt melanski sent all the results and everything from the w w w f and somebody else would send the results from here and there and i'd do tennessee and i'd have features and i'd have pictures in there that i was taking at the time i was starting to take pictures and i would do them on legal size white copy paper and with my typewriter i would leave room to put the pictures in with double stick tape and all this stuff and then it'd be 20 pages of legal size my mom would drive me down i don't have a driver's license yet my mom would drive me downtown to this coffee shop she knew from working down the chamber of commerce and they do the bulletin for like three cents a page but it still was like 30 dollars to have all these bulletins done so i think i did like three or four of them and i was making money taking pictures and spending money doing the bulletin and something had to go but it was fucking fun here's a follow-up letter from caren langley to norman dear norman hello again have you heard from miss barry yet i highly doubt it i still haven't heard anything maybe she left town i had a brainstorm and maybe you can help me i figured that since miss barry is such a blank up with her club maybe i should start my own here in the Dayton area that leads to a few problems and that's where you come in i hope i know that i would have to contact t r obviously tommy rich first and get some kind of permission from him right the only address i have is world championship wrestling suite 110 100 tecwood drive northwest atlanta georgia 303 if you think that tommy rich would get a letter from me out of the thousands that go through there every week and actually read it is there another address that would be better maybe someone i could call i tried calling the nwa in atlanta all i got was some dipstick and quotes who knew nothing except where the wrestlers were i already knew that i tried to get in to see him and get things started on this i think did she get like charlie mcgowan on the phone or something he's like go to the omni on friday but have you ever seen the size of the goon squad they have it would be easier to see ronald reagan who would want to do that anyways to make a very long and getting longer story short i'm sincerely considering starting a tommy rich fan club and anything you might be able to tell me would be much appreciated ps have a happy thanksgiving and in case i don't get a chance to tell you merry christmas that a happy new year too hope to hear from you soon caren rangley what about valentine's day boy did she feel on that norman kites are responded november 15th 1982 first of all as i told you earlier we have never received an application from miss barry nor have we ever seen any material concerning her club i wrote to her and received no answer so other than your earlier letter to me i'm not aware that she's even running a club and since she doesn't answer my letter there's no other way for me to find out the address you have for world championship wrestling in atlanta is the only one that i have i would assume that tommy rich would receive any mail sent to him care of that address but i have no idea whether he's able to answer any or all the fan letters he must receive i do not have another address for mr rich i have a closed an application for listing in our swap and sell section but in order to start a fan club you would need the first get that individual's permission and i really am not able to help you more than that i'm sorry to not be able to be more of help to you sign norman kites are so norman i actually i've just typed into the google machine carol barry and tommy rich and i get tommy rich's wikipedia and carol barry who is a candidate from the australian labor party i don't think it's the same one here's a letter from a third person kathy shooster mansfield ohio i wrote in a few months ago for an address for the tommy rich fan club i received one newsletter and a picture it said i would receive a newsletter a month mr kiteser i spent 15 i could have used for a lot of other things things i called this number on my membership card and it said the number was disconnected i don't know if you could do anything but i would like a fan club that won't rip off a tommy rich fan here's the fan club and it's one in gradenville michigan i don't know if uh it's hard to read what she wrote here gardenville gradenville the president is sharon kane the vice president julie damagood i'd really like to join a legitimate fan club not one who rips you off sign kathy shooster boy it's crazy hearing is like just within this period of time there are multiple fan clubs there's no one delivering the demand for more and then here's a letter from norman kiteser to sharon kane i understand that you operate a fan club for tommy rich we would like to include all fan clubs in the wrestling news magazine which we publish and closes an application for you to complete and return so he's just blindly letters the fan club president uh this is the response to kathy nothing new there and then here we'll wrap it up with this pile this is from 1983 garak ballard dear mr kiteser i'm interested in placing an advertisement in your swap and sell column would you please send me an application ps in october 1981 you listed carol barry as the official fan club president of the tommy rich fan club after joining the club i received only a few bulletins during my entire year's membership the bulletins were supposed to be issued monthly so another complaint there and then you know carol sounds like she's running a sloppy shop dear mr ballard march 26 83 per your complaint concerning carol barry's tommy rich fan club i can only answer by saying that since i have over he left that the word taken taken over as fan club editor and require an application to be filled out by each club we list we have never listed her club i've had several complaints concerning her club and been written to her several times for an explanation but i've never received any from her i really don't know what else i could do i suggest you file a complaint with the postal authorities if you cannot get satisfaction elsewhere and then this is now according to this on the internet tommy rich's net worth is uh five million dollars yeah it's last updated on december 11 2023 it's almost like you can't trust the internet and here's something from garrick ballard it looks like it's a pitch for a tommy rich board game i can't even read if i said those words i can't read a tommy rich board game one is an exciting board game with tommy wrestling against a variety of top georgia area opponents including superd buzz sawyer ivan call off ironshik and rick flair what happens to tommy and the punishment he must endure depends on the squares you land on whether tommy it's depend the squares you land on determine whether you're going to jail or whether you're going to be able to rent a rental car from that company anymore whether tommy wins or not depends on the way you roll the dice game two is a combination board and card game where tommy wrestles the opponent of your choice you advance tommy on the board as he performs all of his favorite wrestling holds but there are illegal moves by the opponent which hinder tommy's progress whether he wins or not depends on your strategy and luck game one four hours game two four hours both games for 650 and here's his application and and there's a yep then that's the tommy rich fan club information there any final oh here's another oh hold on here's one final one let me open this august 29th 1983 there's an envelope and i thought it was empty dear sir i would like an advertisement application for the tommy rich fan club i started signed by carry bailey the co-president iran tin ohio wait a minute carry bailey and carol berry what kind of scam is this woman operate yeah i don't know but there it is from the fan club days from the files tommy rich jim let's get to some classic stuff before we get to some questions i have a file here this is from the files ladies and gentlemen where i was about to say you're not a you're not a carpenter where were you on the third no this is from the wrestling news files the archives of the wrestling news wrestling review wrestling monthly the rings wrestling major league wrestling programs and so much more this is the george grant file oh my god now i'm sure none of the listeners have any idea who george grant well some of them do but a lot of them don't the younger ones probably don't we do have one of the smarter historical audience that is true but we do also have a lot of young wrestling fans listening i have here george grant by the way we left that dangling was one of the imitation gorgeous georgias that popped up in the business especially since george died unfortunately early at an early age in 1963 but a lot of people didn't get the memo george grant was still doing a gorgeous george ripoff in the mid to late 60s i think and then later on became some type of bogus evangelist am i correct in that well this is a really interesting file something here is a photo that was sent back it still has the national inquirer stuff from 85 george grant versus tony nero i have a letter here to norm kiteser pro wrestling enterprises mancato minnesota from mark j Lieberman from eustonville new york december 12 1982 dear norm enclosed as an article that appeared in the sunday december 12 1982 edition of our local newspaper the pakipsi journal written by a marshal fine of the guinette news service it's all about the wrestling career of george grant who wrestled as gorgeous george i know for a fact that the first and original gorgeous george was george wagner who passed away in the early 1960s this grant character did wrestle but not as the original gorgeous george but yet as this article is written this grant is taking the full credit as being the one who made the moniker gorgeous george famous and i feel this is wrong being mr wagner is dead i feel someone should set the pakipsi journal and the guinette news service straight on the facts as to who was the original gorgeous george in the best interest of professional wrestling i also feel that the one organization to best accomplish this is your pro wrestling enterprises yeah please send them a letter stating the facts and i will pay the postage for the letter please find the stamp enclosed yours truly mark j Lieberman i have here the article let me just see if the stamp is still here and i have the self-addressed by the way i know a mark Lieberman and it can't possibly be the same one but mark Lieberman if that is you send me an email saying that's you and i will talk about the incredible coincidence here's the article from the paper december 12 1982 by marshall fine that's the thing not only did this fucking guy do that and told people that he was the gorgeous george but when he died newspapers ran the obituary like he was god damn gorgeous george in the wrestling ring of life gorgeous george has a stranglehold on sin and a hammerlock on salvation but gorgeous george grant 58 a pioneer of professional wrestling now spends his time in the preacher's pulpit grappling with the wave of godlessness he sees overwhelming america here's a quote i was saved in 1965 grant says in his growling drowl after being resurrected in 1963 i kept wrestling and promoting until 1973 when i started preaching full time the last few years i was just using wrestling as a means to make a living while i was studying and preparing to go into full-time ministry at his peak in the early 1950s however gorgeous george was a gloriously outrageous villain when a professional wrestling's first national stars he was a mincing pretty boy with long bleached locks and flowing silk robes my image was true grant says i was brutal sadistic self-centered and vain i would beat a guy mercilessly and then prance around the ring to aggravate the crowd a native of a small texas town northeast of dalas grant learned to wrestle while working at the carnival he joined at 15 he dropped out of high school then joined the navy during world war two when he was discharged in 1946 he entered the professional wrestling ranks although grant was one of the first professional wrestlers to adopt an attention-getting gimmick it was more an accident than a plan what a one of the first it was more an accident than a plan that vaulted him into the national limelight it started by accident grant says i intended to use this sissy gimmick for two or three days and it just exploded after that some guy got a hold of me and started telling me stories about how i was going to make lots of money i did too and he stole most of it at that point i hadn't even bleached my hair that didn't come for about six months i just had long hair but in 1947 long hair was an absolute novelty let me stop right here was it that hard in because this was what year 1982 December 82 okay i you would have had to have not done any fact checking whatsoever now i know that again the average person on the street didn't know that gorgeous george wagner died in 1963 and all of his trials and tribulations and etc but i guess people just this guy accepted this guy's story without even going to the library to check out whatever happened to gorgeous george or any contemporary newspaper if he was in the newspaper business he could go down to the morgue and look at the files how do you not fact check when somebody claims to be a former celebrity that they don't really look that anything like otherwise than they have bleached bleached hair or used to have bleached hair i don't even know if he was still bleaching it then you see what i'm saying here eventually wrestling lost its sparkle for grant the expansion of television changed the sport from a national phenomenon to a regional one each territory had its own stars and even its own world champions grant discontinued the gorgeous george persona in 1963 and quit wrestling all together in 1972 and buried the body in the desert that was the year gorgeous george died i believe so you know the bad thing is he didn't quit that gimmick in 1963 he did it all through the 60s and he he didn't even at least gorgeous george jr gorgeous george jr i'm convinced we're in the last days i've reached a point of utter disgust there's a growing ungodliness in this country because we've gotten so far away from the precepts of our founding fathers people need salvation now wait a minute hold on here he's mixing his metaphors the founding fathers wanted nothing to do with organized religion that's why they wrote it out of the constitution he's thinking of of the the the real the the rules you gotta follow the ten commandments you know the stuff it says thou shalt not lie well i'm moving uh to the next thing here in this file here is an article what is this from does it have a date no date gorgeous three oh wow this is coming this is coming close to home pastor john michael of mancato's grace baptist church thinks george grant might be getting a bum wrap though grant was not the original gorgeous george the wrestler turned evangelist did perform during the 50s and the 60s as gorgeous george and michael believes grant did not intend to misrepresent himself when he spoke in mancato oh boy november 7 through 12 let me just see if this is in order here because oh yeah this follows the article great isn't that like but wait a minute isn't that like saying yes isn't that like saying even though he impersonated a famous person at one time he didn't mean anything by it yeah and here's so here's an article here's the whole paper actually november 16 1982 the free press mancato minnesota gorgeous george by michael larson the managing editor ever since i started in evangelism i've carried a whistle if someone starts talking in tongues while i'm preaching i want to see if it's real if it's a holy spirit a blast in the ear won't hurt him at all oh good i never heard that before if it's the holy spirit you can just blow whistles in people's ears well yeah that's so whether they tell whether they're faking it or not what in the world is going on with these people uh trying to see where it actually starts with him here's the or guess the original article pro wrestler coming to grace george grant known to professional wrestling fans is the blonde carefully gorgeous george i think it's clothed will be in mancato next week preaching at the grace baptist church sixth avenue and lindstreet grant will tell his life story during the church's 25th anniversary meetings that begin seven he'll tell when he'll tell whose life story at the 25th anniversary show for them a carnival wrestler introduced grant to wrestling when he was 15 years old after serving in the navy during world war two he began his career as gorgeous george a villain quickly recognized by his colorful robes and golden bobby pins worn in his long blonde hair his talks next week will tell how he came to change careers in the mid 60s from pro wrestler to gospel preacher so he came even into town traveling from church to church lying to people claiming to be he was a pro wrestler but he claimed to be one of the most famous ever when he was not he's talking about he was impersonating a dead man and then taking up collections from these people that he had just duped well i guess he's following the mo of every traveling preacher but nevertheless well again the person who sent in the original letter i rent i read i read here mark Lieberman that was december 82 pkpsi so here's the follow-up to that mancato article great imposter i saw stories on grant in the luible paper that was on a wire service in the 70s and knew it was bullshit but go ahead by michael laursen great imposter question mark norman kiteser of mancato and gary cambell of st peter want to set the record straight on gorgeous george both have stepped forward to challenge evangelist the challenge evangelist george grant who bills himself as the former professional wrestler gorgeous george grant was featured in a column here last week following his appearance at mancato's grace baptist church here's a quote from norm kiteser while george grant was a professional wrestler and it is a fact that the word gorgeous is an adjective which could be used to describe anyone gorgeousness being in the eye of the beholder and his first name is george he is not the wrestler who was internationally famous as gorgeous george in the 40s and 50s that man was gorgeous george wagner and he is the wrestler who headlined the major wrestling cards in los angeles chicago new york etc it was gorgeous george wagner who became the top wrestling star on early television and who starred in several movies etc george grant used his own name except for a short period of time during his career where he called himself gorgeous george he was strictly an imitation of the more famous gorgeous george who was an international star and was soon exposed as such and returned to wrestling in preliminary matches as he had been for most of his career wow while george grant's while george grant's religious work is to be commended he gives the impression as did your article that he was once the internationally famous wrestler gorgeous george he is not that man died in 1963 can you imagine if you are norm kites or you run this pro wrestling enterprise and this guy comes to your hometown he's in his hometown well besides it can you think of it all these churches here that oh he wasn't the guy he said he was really seemed like such a good christian well what's it say here who's this cambel guy let me fold this over cambel brought in a copy of a playboy magazine article entitled gorgeous george md the article quotes from the publisher's preface to gorgeous george's autobiography it was gorgeous george who almost single-handedly transformed professional wrestling from a sport to a spectacle who ushered television out of the electronics laboratory and into the living room no one who has grown up in the unremitting hot house glare of the commercial tube will ever be able to imagine how brilliantly those first feeble sparks of video at home illuminated the spirit of post war america yet even then when a simple test pattern was a miracle enough to command our rapt attention gorgeous george was special a pioneer in scarlet tights and golden ringlets he pranced and he preamed his way across the barren plains of the american consciousness breaking the hard ground from which has since sprouted such unlikely and exotic fruit as liberace little richard mohammed ali and montee rock the third get dancing dancing the playboy article describes george raymond wagner as a highly sophisticated new york cycle analyst who traded in his clinical gown for an embroidered wrestler's cape and transformed himself into the outrageous killer slash fruit cake i remember this now they wrote an article like gorgeous george was really a fucking psychiatrist that on the side moonlighted to do this is a sociological experiment the author tells of a fascinating confrontation between gorgeous george and a policeman at belview hospital in new york city wagner had finished dressing for a match at madison square garden on march 7th 1950 when he was summoned by one of his patients at belview wagner in flamingo silk shorts carmine tights and long flowing cape found himself blocked as he entered the hospital he tried to explain that he had to hurry quickly to see his patient and then return for his match for one tense moment the careful equilibrium in which the separate characters of dr wagner and gorgeous george and gorgeous george have been maintained teetered wildly then in a flash he slammed the patrolman to the floor with a deft flying scissors kick followed quickly i gotta turn this and it's stapled god damn it it's a real page tartar by a crushing spread eagle pounce and a bruising half nelson the nurses shrieks brought a pair of burly black orderlies leaping into the fray only to be sent reeling by a whirlwind barrage of rabbit punches locked by rage into his gorgeous george persona the cape psychiatrist prance wildly up and down the corridors delivering head shrinkers and fairy mind waves to staff members who tried to subdue him the nurses wept patience howled an alarm wailed out over the intercom finally a flying squadron of residents and orderlies managed to pin the madman and a drab straight jacket enveloped the tattered remnants of his splendid costume it was gorgeous george's final bout after the bell view match gorgeous george retired from both his professions and opened a small bar in grill in los angeles in the decade before his untimely death at 48 in 1963 the playboy article relates he tended bar worked on his autobiography is there a doctor in the ring and according to his source watched an awful lot of television so we started talking about george grant now this is other i remember playboy magazine did what year was that do you does it have a year on it it does not mean again this is a but they do but it's before this they did that article that i remember hearing about it and even seeing it or reading it at one point and i hadn't thought about it in a long time but yeah that and people bought that too some people oh wow i never knew that that you know it happened a lot who am i thinking of is it the little rascals we're like there was like a bullshit spanky that died and it was a bullshit buckwheat there was a bullshit buckwheat that's what it was there was a bullshit buckwheat yeah and like spanky called him out because spanky mcfaulin was still alive he's like that's not buckwheat what the fuck where remember there was a bullshit stand lane bull ramos how about when what time there was a get together at slammer's vernal angans place and a bullshit bull ramos showed up and like victor reveral i want to fight him in the parking lot because there was some guys they was bull ramos i don't know how they think they're going to get away with it but i guess some of them do for a while and by the way the pictures here i have george grandpine lil al vavisore so oh well you knew that was gonna happen that's in here and then there's a couple more pictures of him he doesn't look too gorgeous in these shots from the 70s and then here's a little press right up in a photo for george grand 5 10 216 pounds los angeles california and his tag team partner gypsy joe risario 5 11 218 havana he worked george grant worked east tennessee in the 60s for quite some time and i think he even may have had a brother at that point where they were a brother team i believe i have his record he put out like a vinyl record of his preachings or whatever or his sermon whatever it is but uh here it is from the files if a ufc fighter becomes a preacher does that mean they give a sermon on the mount this pair could cause some of the other teams plenty of headaches and it's an unusual combination see if you don't agree george grant was a one-time gorgeous george character went under the name gorgeous george grant he was a success in his pursuit of the dollar in the grappling game too because he decided to retire for a few years and spend some of his profits george might not have returned to the game as an active participant if he had not run into gypsy joe risario this long haired and whiskered individual had that something that grant knew was box office and he let himself be talked into forming a team with the unpredictable gypsy joe and with grants poise and know how to keep gypsy joe from flying all over the arena in pursuit of anything from a straw hat to a pretty face george has welded as tough a tag team as you can imagine grant is sure and safe with his sound wrestling fundamentals but risario is so wild and unorthodox that fans say that he doesn't know himself what his next move will be this is an exciting pair to watch don't miss their antics when they appear in your local arena well there it is a press write-up for gypsy joe and you know what that's that's another thing and not enough antics in the wrestling business these days we don't have antics like we used to when you would receive you know let's talk about smoky mountain just because obw it's a little late in the game at that point in terms of how people communicated but when wrestlers would send you videos to come into smoky mountain did they usually write up like a like a one page in kfabe explaining who they are like what came with the video usually some of them did unfortunately yes um i mean you know the guys the guys who are professional would have an eight by ten picture of them looking halfway decent and a sheet with their contact information and and maybe who had trained them or examples of places they'd worked and a videotape with highlights not two hours of shit with 30 minute long matches shot with a cam quarter from the back of the gym that nobody's gonna fucking watch and they were they were trying it was the the modern more up-to-date version of you know stew heart said Bobby Fulton say if you called stew heart want to get booked in Calgary it's eh send some pictures send some pictures like you can tell how you can work if you send pictures but that's what they had before video right but it was an updated version of that but some guys yeah would go I am and I saw this more again as time went on into the obw era but you know I hail from the planet Neptune and I have landed on a spaceship and I am gork the destroyer and or whatever or going into detail like I have worked with the following people or I'm this was even better I've worked on shows with the following people and then they list a bunch of names I got damn one time Stacy took a piss with Reba McIntyre we were at Calhouns in Nashville Hendersonville actually there may be goodlitzville I'm not sure what the suburb a suburb is considered then she went in the bathroom and son of a bitch she came out of one stall and Reba McIntyre came out of the other stall so Stacy could put on her resume that she once took a piss with Reba McIntyre but that doesn't really tell you whether she's a good pisser or not does it but so that yeah someone is I've worked on shows with this name and that name and the other name I don't really think that's a you know goddamn clear recommendation but but yeah you'd get a lot of that stuff all right well that was the pissing with Reba McIntyre segment here on the show but you know Jim well it is you know it is an unusual occurrence how many other people can say that they they took a piss just and listened to Reba piss at same time there was audio on this also because they were right next to each other to conclude the George Grant slash bullshit bogus gorgeous George from the file segment what do you think of the way they morph the history the way they use his actual death in 63 one says it was him actually I guess they both say it wasn't him the second guy what are they both saying because the first guy was saying that uh George Grant was saying that in 1963 he stopped using the gimmick when in reality gorgeous George died the second guy was saying he had like the exact same background he left the business and he opened the bar in California yes well and and it was all bullshit because uh George Grant used the gimmick even after George George was dead because as we said not everybody saw the newspapers and the other thing at gorgeous George did have a restaurant bar in the Los Angeles area before he died gorgeous George's ringside right but yeah I got a bunch of stuff from it allegedly well and allegedly you know that wasn't exactly a great financial success either so they're all just lying because in those days in 1982 unless you were a wrestling fan and knew even to go to the library what to look for unless you know you were on the newspaper then there's some element if you're a journalist there's some element of integrity involved in trying to fact check but if you were just a regular jackoff on the street you couldn't readily check and see that gorgeous George was really dead so you might believe it but there's a little bigger burden of proof to be able to fool fool reporters and journalists you know for a long time it is again they happen to fight the little rascals that's happened for famous people but with wrestling it seems that it is a place where like con artists outside carnart not even the internal ones like outside con artists say you know what I can lie my way in by saying I'm someone else because you know there've been other you know the hangman bruise pole bands obviously that great example yeah you know what was the other one uh the one from Canada fuck what was his name oh I can't remember the other guy's name now but oh god there's always been these phonies these complete phonies who had nothing to do with anything but want to pretend that they did but you know what most of them have been they haven't been trying to do it for great monetary gain they've been doing it because they were marks they wanted their family or other people to believe that they were really somebody and they would do it that way rather than their the con people who have misrepresented who they are that have gotten into wrestling or the the money backers and the olu olianis and people like that not nobody ever tried to impersonate a wrestler to actually make a lot of money at it maybe the gorgeous george grant was getting publicity for his preaching scam but there was no money to be made by making anybody in a business especially believe that you were somebody because they it wouldn't hold up but in the public you could get attention and people would sell he's he's somebody you know what you did brian i'll tell people i hate to know i hate you hate to find out about the things that you did well what you did was you you demanded that we delay the start of this recording 15 minutes uh earlier before we started recording you demanded it or you wouldn't go on us and all right i acquiesced to your demand so while i had the the 15 minutes it heard twiddle my thumbs i opened one of these file cabinets that i've yet had the time to fully go i mean i got a lot of file drawers up here and a lot of the old 30 year old 40 year old paperwork is not filed as as nicely and neatly as possibly my you know federal income tax returns although both of these things all these things can come back to haunt you but i just stuck a hand in and pulled a few things out that i thought that i might present to you and the listeners and the cult of cornet the people out there and they may like to hear some of these too would you like to hear what these things are yeah considering we have no context whatsoever for what it could be let's find out what it is well that's because i didn't know what it was going to be until about 20 minutes ago when i stuck my hand in there started pulling shit out i found a postcard this postcard was written august postmarked august 18th 1986 from scarvesdale new york and it is a it is a motherfucker it's a it's a picture of the punk rock folks with the spiky hair and the spiky pig hair and like the lady maxine type of outfits and they're wearing the sid vicious and johnny rotten type of stuff and it it says scenic sites of new york city right and it says jim thanks for the best time i've had in a very long while there'll be some context in the next sentence now the pictures make sense y'all shut up yeah thanks for the best time i've had in a very long while by the way do you think they'll ever let us back into sabatinos hmm i wonder your friend paul heyman and i found this and i looked back in the midnight express scrapbook of course obviously sabatinos is in baltimore paul was living as we know in the greater uh new york metropolitan area at that time but we hadn't been to baltimore since july 19th that was the during the great american bash is that year i looked in the scrapbook it was us against the road warriors house was 106 thousand dollars by the way but i i seem to remember that i know that he was doing the you know photography and doing i think at that time editing his own magazine did he get wrestling eye for a period of time and i know he had come to the meadowlands and etc but i remember now i think him possibly coming down to baltimore i because we went to sabatinos every month but i don't remember what was the date well this was postmarked in august 86 but the previous time we've been in baltimore was the month before in july and i don't remember being in any kind of incident in sabatinos with paul where they wouldn't let us back unless you know we ordered too much food or he had some issue i don't know what but but i wonder if he has the same post office box post office box bleep scars dale new york 10583 well i i reacted before because yes and we'll just do this now let's start on a fun note i told you let's go from the files today or go to the segment from the files and it wouldn't be a comprehensive one because the file is too big it'll be a 50 parter i'm gonna get the paul hayman file i didn't know that you had already done this so i completely independently it explains your reaction this is one of the things i had yeah i had pulled out this is such a gigantic file because it has everything he ever sent in including all the programs he was doing well and i guess for the for the people who may have just staggered across the program at a drunken stupor brian is the owner and curator and preserver of the files of the wrestling news ring wrestling and a whole bunch of other publications that was uh at the time under the curatorship of this era with paul hayman and norm kiteser at pro wrestling illustrated over pro wrestling enterprises i'm sorry over in minnesota and he like jack feffer saved every piece of paper he ever came across his desk so we've been finding some very interesting things from all kinds of different people in the wrestling business you know one of the problems is hayman sent a lot of stuff in hayman is not someone who put dates on things no so norm kiteser everything is dated i'm looking all this hayman stuff nothing has a date on it because i'm trying to find if he sent anything in around that weekend at 86 lots of photos but let's i'll pick an interesting one here from well such a gigantic file hi if it ladies and gentlemen brian last is secretly a hoarder and one of his stacks just fell over on top of him and just smothered him uh here's a letter from paul hayman the norman kiteser dear norman the april 19th show at the meadowlands was the host for what could become a major problem including myself there were 16 photographers at ringside a situation which made it difficult for the regular photographers not to mention the wrestlers to do their jobs properly let's stop there because 16 was all in caps here have you ever heard of that many photographers at ringside no that's ridiculous and hold on uh because one of the i have pictures that paul took of us in the meadowlands i think that was the february show i'm looking in my book you can continue reading if you want but i'm looking up that time period to see if we were on that april i don't think this would be you because i think this is april 85 oh that's 85 well in that case then fuck that out of those 16 three were representing your publication exclamation point i was there as usual and two other gentlemen partners i believe named bob eppstein and i can't remember his partner's name were there with authorization to cover for the wrestling news gary juster told me you okayed them he gave him up right away this creates a potentially dangerous situation one of the reasons vince mcman jr threw the press out in february 1983 was because he was tired of the shenanigans that went on each month involving who represents whom bill actor would have two guys at ringside this guy would complain this paper wanted to get in this guy's credentials were questionable etc and although juniors primary motive was his magazine the fact remains that he was not lying when he told us that the press situation was ridiculous so let's stop there because obviously you've seen footage you never shot ringside at the garden there were regulars on top of any special guests like local media for the newspapers or whatever at what point as a promoter or a booker do you not want i mean you want some kind of action i guess maybe it ringside someone shooting pictures it makes it look like a big deal especially when you had flash but when they're bumping into each other and fighting for the shot what do you do well and there is a happy medium and there has to be a limit and all of these things can be true at the same time at the garden for the people who have seen god not only the the stuff that's out there from the 70s because of the wwe you know collection and the the stuff they've gotten the vault and everything but even the pictures back in the 60s the garden was always a close area in around ringside close not roomy not spacious is what i'm trying to say the the seats were pretty close to the ring and there were the press tables bill after even into the 70s because it was it was in the up through the 60s it was set up like boxing at the garden for wrestling even down to remember you've seen the pictures they had four ropes they had a boxing ring there were four ropes on the madison square garden wrestling ring through the 60s and after used to talk about having to stand up because of the height of the garden ring but lean over the narrow press table they had that ran down one whole side of the ring and stick his head under the bottom rope to try to get a good picture is like he got scoliosis so they didn't do or encourage until really the vince junior era guys fighting outside the ring in the garden because of the riot in 57 and all that other stuff and so that's why since they hadn't done a variety of stuff like that for so long when they started doing it it was you know they had to give you some more room but still people were it was tight around there so to the photographers yes you always had your your main guys bill after obviously bill after obviously george napolitano for his section of the of the wrestling magazine universe the photographer the frank amados of the world and all of the guys that you shot at the garden that were regulars you had to allow access because the magazine publicity was still publicity was still you know very important in those days but you couldn't you couldn't go down the line to everybody that wanted to get in that's how remember paul admitted himself that he called up and bullshit at vince senior and said he promised to give him a press pass but he never had to shoot pictures that made him the fourth or fifth photographer at madison square garden right there but you know so you had to draw a line and usually usually because of the the closed nature of the business in one you know any particular market if they had somebody shooting picture me and luval mike shields was doing memphis scott teal was in nashville this other you know you had one or two photographers in a territory that did everything needed to be done it's just because the garden was such a big deal everybody wanted to get in on that but again that and modern day tv tapings also before when they were still trying to use old-fashioned you know ring setups with not a lot of room around ringside now with guys with tv cameras and cable pullers and still photographers and ramps and it was a goddamn pain in the ass anyway i'm sorry i'm droning on well no back to this letter here again about the situation and vince mcman jr's response to it i see the same thing happening here if enough wrestlers complain the verne ganya and or gary juster the press may start finding it more and more difficult to have their cooperation in future months already the press has been banned from their most recent tv tapings in wane new jersey and the only way to prevent this from expanding into a bad situation is to limit the number of photographers at ringside if possible from now on please be extra careful about giving additional authorizations out for pro wrestling usa northeastern matches except for me we would like not to have anybody else around one photographer per magazine is adequate and it keeps the situation around the ring under control i would hate to see verne get mad one night and start throwing press members out arbitrarily thank you paul heyman ps the metal adds material and early material for next month's programs will be on their way in two days because he was already helping with those programs and well and that makes sense 85 because that's when verne and the pro wrestling usa guys were in charge hence gary juster and by february the next year the first time we went up the crocket had they were still working with verne but crocket was the primary person flowing forward for that for all the reasons pro wrestling usa as a concept didn't work yeah i have norm kiteser's response april 26 1985 paul heyman per your letter i understand the situation about too many paul heyman paul heyman i understand the situation about too many photographers being not good that's a bad sentence i am well satisfied with your stuff and want to explain what happened the only person i vouched for was mr bob dorer d o e r r e r i've never heard of any of these people a correspondent i've had for over five years he wrote me and asked if he and his friend could get press passes for the matches and he said he would send me some photos he and norman blake they are the ones who have sent me some photos from madison square garden i relayed his request to gary juster i can't find any one of my correspondence file named epstein although when you've been publishing wrestling magazines for over 25 years i'm not sure if at some point or another someone by that name did do work for me or one of the magazines i've taken over there was this one kid named wan i think though that bob dorer must be the person at the metalands i didn't realize there was a problem with too many photographers but realize how that could happen and i won't okay anyone but you for the metalands in the future basically i just asked gary and he can say yes or no to anyone that i did ask about bob dorer i'm sorry if this contributed to the overcrowding and from now on i'll just tell anyone who asked that you are sending us the photos we need the other side was at the time this came up excuse me at the time this came up i didn't have any photos yet of everyone specifically the tanga kid that gary wanted in the program i have a photo of him from you now i guess being in the situation where i am at the present i look for help from anyone that i can since without new stand distribution basically i have a very small budget to work with and can't afford to buy material so i accept help from anyone i can but you are doing more than adequate excuse me but you are doing more than adequate job oh that is the way it's written of supplying me with excellent material from your area well it's always nice when when again it's almost bankrupt tells you you're more than adequate i'm just happy to have your help and that you are willing to give it in return for free copies of the magazines i think i've explained some or all of this in the letters to you before but if not i will hear if this letter seems a bit disjointed i'm writing it late friday at the end of a long work week i apologize for the errors anyway by a way of explanation my setup is as follows you know what even though he's tired he's had a long work week brevity was never norm kitesers base in a hole as far as wrestling is concerned my basic business is the wrestling news i purchased the subscription and editorial files of ring wrestling and the wrestling review from ring corp and then jim it goes into detail here it's a little uh the carbon copy is a little messy about his deal with ring corp uh previously they owe him a substantial amount from when they they did something his percentage but he agreed but i agreed to take my payment from their profits of future issues that leaves me with subscriptions and area sales also the program business the programs i give the promotions at cost basically for two reasons one is as part of the deal i have a subscription ad for the magazine in each one and the other is i gain material for the magazines if they have good lord but hold on now so he wasn't making a profit on the actual he was having programs in 85 in 85 he was but he was having programs printed for a variety of the territory still uh was that he at still at that point was doing stuff for mid south for watts uh yeah 85 he was doing stuff for watts he was finishing finishing up with verne because verne was going to start doing other things but he wasn't even making a profit on selling them their programs that they were turned around and selling for a profit and and see that was just so you know when i started doing the championship wrestling magazine for the memphis territory here remember it was the 16 page thing we just wanted something extra to sell at the matches and i was i was god damn if we sold them for two dollars i was selling them to tini for like a dollar and i was getting them from him for like 65 or 70 cents let's say whatever but he was then the reason why he offered me wait a minute it was all 16 pages of my stuff he said i'm not getting my ads for the wrestling news magazine in this and they're out selling the wrestling news so he gave me for the same price like a full-size magazine the same size magazine as you would buy buy on the newsstand in fact what was it 68 pager no is 50 something whatever if he could put his ads in and i got more content for the same fucking price so he could get his ads in that really was the way he was making all of his money was just with the fucking ads let's go back to the end of this there are quite a few correspondents who helped me by giving me material in return for copies of the magazine although no one has given me as much as you have of late i just wanted you to know that i really do appreciate all your help i'll follow your suggestion about photographers for the usa and the northeast i should have thought of that earlier i thank you again and i'll close for now but it's like nothing you can write to him that he won't write back a kind of pleasant yes yes he was a very pleasant fellow here's an example of what paul heyman would be writing up for indie promotions to hype them up 40 years ago 1985 independent championship wrestling the icw is headed by bob raskin of raskin sports productions and holds cards in new york new jersey canada kit pennsylvania and delaware this promotion is shaping up to be the biggest and best independent promotion on the east coast and promoter raskin has announced that he will soon be holding a tournament to decide heavyweight and tag team champions certainly among the favorites to win the tournament is private rocky jones the muscular youngster who's the latest protege of sergeant slaughters never heard of private rocky jones never heard barely never even made corporal always a good wrestler jones has shown remarkable improvement since his training under the sarge another favorite though not of the fans is the former rikers island corrections officer smokin steve sandor who recently had a run in with jones in port chester new york the six foot two three hundred and fifty five were at the at the mall the six over at dairy queen where did they have this run i've never heard of any of these names the six foot two three hundred and fifteen pound rule breaker has vowed to become the first icw heavyweight champion dominic denouchey has also announced his intentions of winning the tournament good lord a seasoned veteran no kid this season he's positively cured and pickled by that for 1985 where would denouchey have been 65 dominic is more popular now than ever many people think the best bet for the tag team title is the team known as the executioners these two well-built grapplers have done very well of late and have announced they will indeed enter the tournament they may however be upset by the exciting new tag team of larry winters and the leopard mask winters is one of the best scientific wrestlers in the independence today and leopard mask with his backflips flying head scissors double flips and drop kicks from the top rope that has to be ted petty may very well be the finest high flyer on the independent circuit yeah that's that's got to be ted petty uh from guatemala tiger mask before he became the cheetah kid wherever the cheetahs are from i can't be tiger mask what should i be he was the cheetah kid before that he was a leopard mask i didn't know that these two make a dynamite team other wrestlers who have appeared on recent icw shows include the terminator davie ohannon damian kane crystal monroe nature girl and pete sanchez in a late-breaking development promoter raskin has announced that he has reached an agreement with pro wrestling usa as america's heavyweight champion larry's abisco will be defending his belt on several upcoming shows they will be on may 10th 85 in heitstown new jersey for the america's heavyweight championship larry's abisco versus private rocky jones special attraction smoking steve sandor versus an opponent to be named tag team attraction the executioners versus larry winter's and leopard mask plus a ladies attraction and a special midgets match plus an appearance by the basher the basher there's a paul haiman indy press right up from there 40 years what a difference 40 years makes what is this oh wow look at this then this is signed too this is two norman kiteser may 1st 84 from jim crocket promotions it's signed by james a crocket jr president carbon copy paul haiman p o box same one you got this is on the letterhead with the mid-atlantic championship wrestling logo the charlotte orioles and worldwide wrestling or as it says here wide world wrestling dear mr kiteser regarding press privileges for paul haiman thank you for your correspondence of april 24th 1984 wherein your requested press privileges for mr paul haiman at the upcoming event to be held at the meadowlands in new jersey mr haiman should direct his request to michael rowe at the meadowlands sincerely jim crocket jim crocket promotions incorporated which is another way of saying leave me alone i don't give a shit leave me alone i don't know who any of these people are and i don't care i'm i'm fighting vince why the hell you call it yeah yeah i don't care if they fucking have the police photographer there to draw chalk outlines on the floor oh here it is too this is april 24th 1984 i dear mr crocket i am writing this letter to request press privileges for mr paul haiman at the upcoming card that you are promoting at the meadowlands in new jersey mr haiman regularly contributes material to our wrestling publications and any courtesy you would extend would be appreciated i ask that you grant his press privileges for this wrestling card sincerely norm kiteser paul haiman carbon copied on this this a little bit after that studio 54 one night only in person rick flair you are invited to join nwa world's heavyweight champion nature boy rick flair as he accepts the first annual wrestling press international man of the year award i have that around here he sent me one at the time i have that around here somewhere friday night august 23rd in new york city's famous studio 54 doors open at 9 p.m this flyer entitles you and a guest the complimentary mission until 10 p.m come early stay late bring this flyer with you and you are entitled to a special discount after 10 p.m 12 dollars per person for you and a guest anytime after 10 p.m for more information call the studio 54 hotline 24 hours a day and now some people have to go what what the fuck and paul was doing publicity for studio 54 or had them convinced he was doing some kind of publicity so he could get pictures of himself with celebrities and meanwhile he was getting the getting into wrestling by getting the wrestling people into studio 54 so when they told flair oh come to studio 54 and get an award he's like oh and it was you know these these things actually happen i think he got dusty and magnum there too either around a filly show or a metal engine maybe but filly actually but he got them there too and then that's where bam bam bigelow debuted yeah i was about to say the studio 54 was that not the site of bam bam bigelow's debut match in pro wrestling see there's a ton of like early bam bam bigelow stuff in here there's a ton of like early everyone that paul heyman encountered does he have pictures of the the manager pictures of him on the stool with the motor city madman i got the visual mint condition one of those what is this from december 2nd 85 front page of the torrington register citizen dr d schultz and fan charged after scuffle at wrestling match and here's a patron david schultz walking out of the police station was the police station on fire at the time or does everything look peaceful professional wrestler dr d david schultz already the target of a lawsuit after striking television reporter john stossel got into another scuffle after a wrestling match sunday night according to 22 year old lenard rinaldi a fan in the audience at the torrington high school gymnasium schultz 35 attacked him and struck him on the head with his boot as the wrestler was leaving the ring for the dressing room all i did was touch it with his boot in his hand yeah i don't know i guess to be kick him i don't know what exactly that's supposed to me but let me uh go back to this all i did this is rinaldi all i did was touch him and the next thing i know there was a size 13 boot coming down on my head rinaldi said at the torrington police station after the incident both schultz and rinaldi were charged with breach of peace police would not comment further on the incident sunday night schultz who lives in woodbridge was released on written promise to appear in court december 16 rinaldi and has his home address here who lives in torrington received the court date of december 6 rinaldi who said he had touched other wrestlers at the event and shook hands with a female wrestler said schultz shouted don't touch me you punk during the scuffle a slight man weighing about 150 pounds rinaldi clearly shaken by the incident says he covered his face when he hit the floor and later complained of a throbbing head and pain in his upper body william montable a fan sitting near rinaldi no montan montan bell it's much much much it's a it's a mighty name a fan sitting near rinaldi said wrestler jim brady pulled schultz away from rinaldi police later arrived at the scene and brought the burly wrestler to police headquarters brady and other wrestlers followed him at police headquarters brady and other wrestlers expressed considerable anger at schultz's situation after schultz and rinaldi left headquarters brady invited the fans to his next scheduled bout in washington dc which happens to be with schultz montemblow montem bout whatever this guy's name is matty blue who earlier vowed never to watch pro wrestling again said he and rinaldi would attend the fight in washington we have to the 19 year old said it's a grudge schultz is being sued by abc tv consumer reporter john stossel after an incident in a taped interview for 2020 and it goes into that american legion post-28 sponsored the wrestling event at the high school attended by more than 500 people schultz made his wrestling debut in winstead in october at a transworld wrestling match sponsored by the police union well there it is heyman sending in all sorts of reports that uh ellie's a stooge too we found out wants to make sure that schultz's misfortune makes the paper made the front page it made the front page of the papers heyman just sent in a copy of the paper how many fight you know we always hear about wrestlers did this and that how many are there that we just have never heard of like from this era like you think you hear everything and there's no no schultz made it go so fan and no you haven't even heard all of mine and i've been telling them for 30 years uh no that was you can go back through itty city's newspapers that had regular wrestling and you will find the you know i've got some from the 70s at the louis va gardens where the fan was arrested disorderly conduct or assault or a fan suing you do the same thing for every town in america that had a newspaper you'll find them every so often or or the fan had a heart attack fucking at the matches you'll find those in every city through the 20th century that had fucking wrestling periodically it and you know and nobody knows about them today and and many of them were not reported a lot of shit that scuffles that i either saw or was in just in the 80s was never reported in the paper or you know a public topic of discussion bam bam i hit that fucking guy that hit hit me or kicked me i hit him whatever that happened constantly well i'll tell you what let's end this uh edition of from the files with real quickly two cards for programs that were done by wrestling press international publisher and editor paul heyman this one a night of professional wrestling tottenville high school statin island new york november 19th 1985 johnny rods versus curt von hess jesus christ good lord what can that be the original curt von hess hold on certainly not uh it does not say steve sandor versus larry winters special girls attraction lady adonis versus jody schiehl the road warriors versus larry sharp and michaelua and the main event sergeant slaughter versus bar as zukoff and then a couple days later november 23rd so and again and obviously for people going what he had arranged through probably gary juster to get four guys from verne road warriors and and uh zukoff and slaughter zubisco slaughter yeah and it's a night of professional wrestling featuring featuring sergeant slaughter and the road warriors on the cover a couple days later the 23rd carter ret new jersey the high school publisher and editor paul heyman's na wf consultant chuck richards that's chris candido's grandfather yes yes yeah does it say anything else about him in here uh it doesn't say doesn't say but oh he is the end he's the promoter actually says consultant he is the promoter as it turns out midgets midgets midgets it just says the word midgets over and over about 10 times tiger jackson versus poncho boy larry winters tiger jackson by the way later on would go would be one of the doinks wouldn't he well he was dink he was dirt dink dinks well one of the doinks one of the dinks he was dink a dink a dink a dink a dude after that big feud with little louie that he had for a while larry winters versus jim londas what obviously there was a second jim my third jim londas there were a few jim londas i guess tom rice versus jeff grippley bonus match bam bam bigelow bi go l o w versus sailor eddie shore a special challenge match pretty boy larry sharp versus the cheetah kid spelt c h i t a cheetah kid because cheetah revero was booked and the main event a super special tag team attraction the masked russians versus the tanga kid and samoan number three in parentheses samu so there we go a look at uh part one of uh a multi part that we may do other ones in between of from the files paul hayman any closing thoughts here paul hayman's got so many parts we could go into now oh here's a oh this is a nice business card an original monster factory business card they got color on it and everything here's paul hayman with a healthy head of hair precious argues with reporter paul hayman as the interview comes to an abrupt end and then it's hayman and jimmy garvin and precious and she's he was shooting angles with himself when he was a uh a fucking reporter that's right all right well that was from the files paul hayman getting us off on a good note let me put this giant file down i'm glad i was able to kick that off with the postcard from my dear friend it's funny all this got me banned from sabatinos for whatever what were you about to say i was going to say it's funny how that worked out it worked out uh the only other time that happened recently was when we both ended up doing something about pat malone independent of each other and came in from the files too actually now to think about yes all right well jim let's go from uh synthia plaster caster that's actually not who we're talking about at all but let's go from that segment yes all the way over to this segment the sodya arabia no vile mahal why don't we uh let me pick this up why don't we do a little from the files part two of something we talked about last week paul hayman i have the giant file here from the wrestling news archive this is a compilation of everything that was a part of pro wrestling enterprises and paul hayman for a few years was a big part of it you said it was the fattest file it is gigantic you know the other interesting plane big the other interesting thing here too is in a lot of ways it's a document of what was happening on the nb scene in the northeast in 84 85 86 87 there's stuff here that paul hayman sent in himself although he would say like credit this person yes like when he was working for a windy city wrestling or even when we were that big that big staff at what was it wrestling press international wrestling press international i just found the actual invitation for the bam bam big low debut match a professionally done invitation from studio 54 but i have here a letter but the problem was when they licked the envelopes for to send them out everybody died this is from and there's not a date on it paul hayman did not date these but this is from the end of 83 dear mr kiteser and clothes please find several photographs and an article pertaining to the recent death of the grand wizard i was a very close personal friend of his for many years and as a matter of fact it was he who broke me into the business hooking me up with vince bickman senior and jr i ran a bulletin for four years wrestling time later renamed the wrestling times and also ran fan clubs for iven putzky louis albano and freddy blassey besides this i also ran at his request the wizards fan club for the last two years of his life ernie himself asked me to run it as a personal favor to him i recently spoke with a man with whom i believe you are familiar frank amato who told me that your publication usually doesn't print long obituaries thinking that letting a man like the wizard die without proper tributes i decided to enclose the aforementioned article please look it over and get back to me at your convenience if necessary you can call me collect at 914 and there's a phone number here i look forward to hearing from you soon very truly yours paul hayman p.s proper postage and a large envelope is enclosed in case you cannot use the material so let's stop there for a second because we're going to end out the origin story of paul hayman well yeah also um it's funny because amato said you don't print it norman would print most things that if people would write them and send them he would print them i mean it's not like if bruno samartino had died he wouldn't have printed a big story on him or whatever but yes paul was he was closer to the wizard than he was anybody else and you know was kind of felt that he was a disciple of his but i loved the many years they paul was what what is this 1980 what was the end of 83 end of 83 uh paul's 19 many years i've been i'm betting when i was three well the other thing too was paul always had a deep not necessarily deep but he didn't always sound like a kid he sounded like someone older and he knew how to project his voice so if you got him on the phone he didn't actually know you may not know he's a kid i mean he's putting out a whole act here about wrestling press international and all this and he had some gravitas the way he worded things also in letters but uh but yes that uh that is true you know that was because he was a new york kid so he loved the new york manager salbano blast he wizard especially wizard that was who he you know grew up watching like we all did in our various places i have the article here but here's norm kites whose response december second 1983 dear paul i received your article on the grand wizard and thank you so much for sending it and thinking of us it would be the type of article i might publish and you indicated that frank amado had suggested you send it to me i don't know if frankie told you this but the situation here is that we have gone through quite a reorganization he's starting to starting to let him down easy about getting any money whatsoever right and i don't at present have any money in the budget to purchase outside material from the only outside material we are using in our magazine at this time is that which we get in trade in return for free advertisements and free copies of our publications and since you didn't indicate that was the basis in which you were submitting this or what you would want in return what i'm going to do is hold on to this making sure you are aware of our situation here and then when you can get back to me and tell me either to return the material to you or we can make some arrangement to use it on that basis if you are interested thank you again for thinking of us hope to hear from you again soon sincerely yours norman kites like you said lowering the boom right there and here's what we could actually do we can send you some beans and corn from our garden the grand wizard passes away at age 57 by paul hayman the grand wizard known the world over as the manager of champions passed away in his sleep on october 13th the cause of death was listed as heart failure born urwin j and then in parentheses urney roth on august 30th 1926 in canton ohio he attended brown university graduating at the top of his class getting involved in radio he worked as a disc jockey all over ohio and michigan one of his fans was the controversial grappler buddy rogers who introduced him to pro wrestling his first job was as a ring announcer but he quickly went on to become a blow-by-blow commentator on television first let me stop there i didn't know that did buddy rogers discover the grand wizard i never knew that it would have been i mean it's entirely possible i have not read any biography on him to either confirm or deny it but urney roth started again as not only a dj but also he was an announcer and he was a television commentator and this was the owl half era late fifties so you know it's entirely possible that it was rogers that may have done a radio spot and said oh you gotta you know you gotta come over here and meet the boys or whatever the case but for several years before he became the first incarnation of a manager was what the first thing he did was mr clean right with the bald head and well let me go back to this it comes up here well and it probably because this is his life but uh but yeah that was that was the way he started in 1957 ray stevens who had been impressed by urney's knowledge of the sport asked him to become his manager accepting stevens's offer but wanted to protect his private life he took the name j wellington radcliffe that's right that was the first one once stevens had moved on the now successful manager went south under the alias armstrong k it was during this time and that that's when he was had the long cigarette holder and he was wearing the capri pants like laura petri on that's right and dig bandai that's right yeah and it well and the thing is and as i guess people everybody knows now i'm not you know saying anything out of school but urney roth was gay and at a period when that was frowned on in a variety of places in and out of wrestling but he got by with some of these these early gimmicks the armstrong k's and things of the of that nature gay and jewish i mean that couldn't have been an easy combination in various places there you go let me go back to this it was during this time that he met johnny barrendon magnificent morise the three of them went to indiana with the manager using the name mr clean and the tag team won the title in record time while in indiana he was sought out by the chic who was looking for a manager and was aware that roth was multilingual the chic asked him to handle his career accepting the new role he took on the name abdulla ferruc and soon rose the national prominence as chic won titles from coast to coast his eight-year tenure with the chic came to an end and abdulla ferruc reappeared in new york as the grand wizard that's crazy just how many different i didn't realize how many different names he had just by that point yeah and well and the reason why he didn't stay as abdulla ferruc in new york is because abdulla ferruc was created specifically to be with the chic and he may have had interaction with some other heels over that eight-year run or whatever but he was really just known as the chic's guy and the pictures of them together were in all the magazines and etc they didn't necessarily want an arabihile manager in new york but with the turban they just made it more generic the grand wizard he had a giant sequined turban and but he also had those glasses like there was something like wizard Lee about him i don't know what to say like there was like something it wasn't just like he's an arab manager it was there's something you know mystical almost about this weird guy and the other thing is other than the clan did anyone use the term like grand wizard was that a thing in society beyond the kkk well yes because of various of the moose lodge i mean i don't know specifically there's elks there's there's mooses there's mesas whatever the fuck there's all these you know in the fucking uh honey mooters grand poobah of the moose lodge or whatever there's some type of grand wizard of these organizations but the clan pretty much doomed it i don't know if they do that now but that was done in the past they didn't just make that up i don't think after proving himself in the w w f to be an astute manager by handling such notorious rule breakers as blackjack moe again and beautiful bobby he pulled off the managerial coup of 1972 by convincing young jimmy valiant to doublecross chief j strongbow this touched off a feud between the indian and the wizard which lasted 13 years it felt like every bit of it to the fans in the northeast on december 1st 1973 the wizard led stan stasiak to the w wf world heavyweight championship when the master of the heart punch defeated pager moralis in philadelphia the reign was short as bruno san martino defeated stasiak only nine days later at madison square garden for three and a half years the wizard looked for someone to overthrow the living legend his dream was fulfilled on april 30th 1977 when superstar billy graham defeated bruno in a controversial match in baltimore maryland the validity of grams clamped the title was questioned because his feet were on the top rope when he pinned san martino the colorful duo was the toast of the east coast as graham tore through all opposition for 10 months until bob backlin won the belt in february 1978 well they really did give him i never thought about the timeline he gets to new york right away he's managing top people they give him stasiak albano had coal off a few years earlier blast he was just about to become a manager i guess and be a blast he didn't start till 73 because that's when he had to leave california he couldn't get licensed after the age of 55 since the day the title left his stable the wizard brought in an amazing array of talent to the w wf although he never saw backland defeated he did lead pat paterson ken paterra and the magnificent marocco to the intercontinental heavyweight championship at the time of his death sergeant slaughter and the mass superstar were both under his management and no replacement has been named as of yet though he was roundly booed and jeered the wizard was without a doubt the most respected manager in the history of professional wrestling his wit eloquence and showmanship will be remembered fondly by the wrestling community for many years to come and there's obviously a very personal write-up of the grand wizard by paul hayman who you know we always so paul does have a sentimental side you know we always talk about hayman being around the garden albano and blast he was there but wizard really what for a lot of people not even just hayman wizard ernie roth was someone who opened doors and got people involved somehow yeah well he was again he was a more of a guy that wasn't one of the boys per se as much as the manager the announcer an office type of guy who was apparently level headed and been around for a while had experienced with a variety of talent so you know he had he had people's ear because he had been around so long at a high level and communicated with people all right i can't speak to the validity of this uh-oh because i have here has a few different things is this another one of those contracts at paul sanden disappearing ink well no i have a picture here a couple pictures and uh when they pull this up here i have what claims to be a transcript of an interview that paul hayman conducted with richard belzer 1985 wrestling president but again i just don't know it wouldn't you know wouldn't be like anyone would be surprised if i said hayman may have made something up could this be like one of those michael aino interviews now there's a picture here of richard belzer apparently reading the wrestling news you could barely see what magazine it is it's almost like someone like snuck a camera in a photo without richard belzer knowing about it but uh there's a couple things here it was either the wrestling news or porn let me go to this i have the letter dear mr kiteser and close please find two color slides that could be used as cover shots or color supplements or for whatever purpose you may find them the first slide shows hulk hogan and mr t with richard belzer i'm belzer's cable talk show hot properties which is shown on the lifetime network i'm sure you're aware of the incident that occurred involving hogan and belzer the second slide is an exclusive of richard belzer reading the wrestling news i recently conducted an exclusive interview with belzer and we'll be sending you the story and some black and white photos that goes along with these slides tomorrow i wanted to rush these slides to you in case you can use them we'll speak to you soon paul hayman and here's the yeah i gotta hear the interview i got it let's see if we can smell the the good strong smell of bullshit my first question from paul hayman first of all you did as kulk hogan to put you in a hold why would you do such a thing the answer why did i do it because i had no idea that he would hurt me i thought he would just demonstrate the hold in a nonviolent way it's an entertainment show and i thought it'd be fun for him to show it to me and not execute any injuries upon me i just did it in a very gracious naive hostlike way the next question what happened he put me in a chin lock a front chin lock it's not a sleeper hold it's a different hold from what i found out as soon as he put me in the hold it cut off my oxygen and i was hurt i was in severe pain i couldn't breathe i passed out and then from looking at the footage i see that after i passed out he just took his arms away and let me fall and i hit the back of my head on the studio floor and got eight stitches in the back of my head next question when you hit the floor were you out i was unconscious when i fell and then this is all in bold in caps and underlined i faked it in his arms and then he dropped me so let me stop here for a second that is clearly what the attorney has told him to emphasize it doesn't seem like i mean it could be a fake but it kind of works out so far it could be something yeah i mean it sounds legitimate and again you know if you know something about wrestling you could concoct that but it doesn't sound like that uh he's making anything up your eyes start to open and hogan helps you up what's going through your mind the question from paul heyman well at that point i was in shock and when i came to i knew that i couldn't continue i knew that something was wrong i didn't know i was bleeding so i figured we better go to commercial and then i went backstage and was taken to the hospital uh here's a question right before hulk put you in the hold he said to mr t and richard belzer cuts him off let me know when you think he's had enough and then paul heyman's question continues he mentioned squealing at that point did you think he was kidding from belzer i'll tell you i met hulk before the show and he was very nice to me he had seen my film and said he was a fan of mine so i of course thought he was kidding the farthest thing from my mind was that he would hurt me i wouldn't have been out there if i thought he would hurt me i think this is legitimate and what do you think today asked paul heyman of wrestling press international i think he knew what he was doing and i'm kind of sickened and shocked by that but by studying the tapes and his remarks before he did it and his remarks afterwards and the whole climate around this thing it appears to me that it wasn't a case of him not knowing his own strength or of it being an accident he fully intended to do what he did again bold underlined in caps so he hurt you on purpose the answer yeah i think so in my opinion he did do you have any idea why he would do this the answer i think it's because him and mr t got caught up in their macho posturing you know they say they don't know their own strength i think they don't know their own mental strength is what it is i think i think there might be something wrong with these guys again bold underlining caps i think i don't know i mean i'm not a psychiatrist or a doctor but i think these are disturbed people and they have to visit violence upon to prove that they're a man let me stop there for a little bit what do you think of the quotes here from belzer well i'm believing this interview more and more because this actually when you think about it he obviously either knew he was going to file suit or was in the process of doing so and so this is a great defense this is a firsthand account of everything that you would say in a deposition on the side of a lawsuit so he was probably given these interviews everywhere he could i don't know where else he gave these interviews how did heyman get this interview that's the big question but let's go back to this well because they would think about this is was this an official interview or did paul find him hanging around studio 54 or yeah the fucking china club or whatever these goddamn clubs are and this was bullshit that you know they were bullshitting back and forth oh it says here interview conducted in a bathroom stall at the bar bat there you go no but let me go back to this there you go the question paul heyman pointing to an article which states at no time did hogan or mr t offer apologies hulk hogan has offered no apologies and then rickard belzer says uh he he apologized right after on the air but if you see the tape i mean it's it's i don't know i didn't take the apology seriously here's heyman and in today's paper mr t called you a jerk belzer says well i'm flattered by that and that heyman says why is that and belzer says well because someone who has so little intelligence perceives me as a jerk that i must be doing something to make them think and evoke feelings from them so i'm not disturbed by him once again bold caps under that was kind of an unwieldy comeback but i'm disturbed that he's a hero to children that he has an effect on an unimpressionable people that's what i'm disturbed by you see no one can say anything to hurt me that's the point but just that i was hurt physically that's why i'm so insulted by this here's a question you say you're disturbed that mr t is a hero to children do you think he's a bad example for children the answer yes very much so because he's a cheerleader for violence he celebrates violence he talks about inflicting pain on people once again this is underline in caps and bold he wraps himself in crippled children and god and he thinks that by mentioning those things he can go out and be uncivilized and beat people up or intimidate people wow i think you know not only is it wrong it's not even american to be like that if he's a hero in this country we should look at ourselves it's the wrong kind of hero in my point of view so of course the follow-up question from heyman he's a bad example yeah i think he's a very bad example anybody who celebrates violence and it was looked up to by children is a bad example by definition in my opinion question what was your opinion of wrestling before all this happened answer well i'll tell you when i was a kid i used to go see dr gerry graham ricky star antonino rocker haystack's calhoun all these people jesus he knew everybody and i have very fond memories of wrestling from when i was a kid me and my friends used to go to the knights of columbus hall in bridgeport connecticut when wrestling was on channel five and my mother would say at least i knew where you were tonight because i saw you in the audience on wrestling so wrestling was a very wholesome fun form of entertainment there were real heroes and real villains then and was clearly defined and the resurgence of wrestling to me has kind of a mean spirited side to it this incident with john stossel and now me and as far as the controversy over whether it's fake or real i don't care if it's fake or real i just care that the guys some of the guys in it are so insecure about whether it's fake or real that they have to go out and beat people up because they're working out their own mental insecurities i mean if people get enjoyment out of it that's fine but when the real violence spills out into the real world then it's not the wrestling i knew as a kid there's a different mentality here and it's very intimidating and it's not entertaining to me that the threat of violence is in the air i think their wrestling should be controlled there should be warnings with it when a kid watches it on tv that these men are experts at what they do and i don't think there's enough safeguards around wrestling the way it is now because if the people in it are taking it so seriously and then kids will think it's real see the adults know it's a put on i know you're not supposed to say that but the wrestlers know it and any intelligent person or semi-intelligent person knows that these guys are great athletes he's starting to lose me again and they know how to throw each other around and it's predetermined who wins and who doesn't which is fine but if children think it's real and they see people like vice presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro at the wrestling matches and gloria steinem and Cindy Lauper and impressional people look up to these people and they'll say well i wasn't sure about wrestling but if they're there i guess it's okay then we have to be careful and qualify it because it's contributing to a trend of violence in this country that's not healthy i really think there should be some controls on wrestling let's stop there what are your thoughts now well my thought is i bet norm kiteser didn't publish this whole thing in its entirety did he i don't know if this got published i have to double check that because because because that's a i don't remember norm kiteser ever publishing anything directly admitting that wrestling was work you mentioned john stossel in the incident with david schultz on 2020 stossel is suing schultz are you planning a lawsuit against hogan uh-huh we don't know my attorneys are um talking about that now so i can't really talk about it we're definitely considering it how many stitches did you get eight how come they didn't cut your hair off i didn't let them i begged the hospital not to well they cut it but they wanted to shave it and i said no bellzer adds to a previously asked question you see i think wrestling has lost its innocence either there was some bolivian marching power in that powder in that bathroom stall or else wise paulie may have embellished some of that do you think he he rattled that stump speech off top of his head in the bathroom at the bar of the bats there's a letter here that's what uh a little weird it says what is the public reaction to all this bin and bellzer says actually i've been very moved by it i can read you a typical letter if you want and then it has the letter printed here but again that heyman i guess if he had a tape recorder going he would uh dear richard my husband and i are both fans of yours and until last night fans of hulk hogan and wrestling we were aware that wrestling was staged and act stayed strictly for entertainment and never took that so-called violence seriously we were outraged at the horrible incident that occurred on 2020 we were so disgusted that we decided the boycott wrestling about a week after 2020 we decided that one barbarian like david schultz i believe that was the wrestler's name didn't make everyone associated with wrestling a barbarian we started watching it again enjoying the ridiculous antics of the wrestlers we liked hulk hogan wrestle mania the rock and wrestling connection cindy lopper lou albano etc but after what happened last night we are never watching wrestling again never we are just sick that such a thing could happen mr t was rude to you during the whole show which was bad enough and which we tried to excuse as an act but for you to be injured by mr hogan is just inexcusable and then belzer says anyway that's pretty much the tone of every letter i've gotten well what are they gonna do they're gonna write yeah you got what you deserved you son of a bitch i wish you to broke your fucking neck um i honestly live through that in real time as the kids say and i i remember the kerfluffle about the whole thing and obviously the incident itself and it was reported on news reports everywhere and then the resulting lawsuit that did happen and didn't um it he's a was it him or stossel that uh named a house they bought after their lawsuit that year it was a that was stossel no it was belzer was a villa in the south of france called shea hogan there you go uh and it's stossel of one that said that his lifelong hearing problem cleared up a lot better once that he got his judgment uh but i don't remember there being a ground swell of fan sympathy for poor richard belzer that because not a lot of people knew how bad he was hurt unless you were the wrestling nerd that that delved into it when he got the hogan cranked up on the front face lock then let him go belzer slipped like a wet rag to the floor cracked his head on the floor got right back up and pitched we'll be right back because he didn't know where he was at and turned around and you could barely see the blood dripping down his jacket at that point so most people thought it was some stunt that happened then the wrestling community focused in on it when it became a thing and you know people heard about it otherwise in the gossip column in the newspaper or whatever but i don't think they were they didn't start a charity go fund me for richard belzer's hospital bills people weren't trying to you know set up sniping locations at hogan for that that that would come later on in years to come when we go back to the uh we're getting to the end here here's a question from paul hayman you must be bitter the answer well um you know i'm starting to get all my senses back after this i was in shock for a few days but the thing that really frankly disturbs me of course i'm angry and upset and i feel violated i feel raped i mean the guy came on my show and this is all in caps again and underlined in bold as a guest and smacked my fucking head against the floor so i am pissed off but i'm more concerned about children looking up to these guys yes i mean i mean that makes me focus on it even more i've been focused all night the fact that i was injured and these guys are heroes i mean that's very unsettling so my jury my personal jury is still out as to what to do about that but i'm concerned about that i've been concerned for three days now do you have a warning for children as paul hayman yes i do yeah i have a warning for parents not children i think it's the obligation of the parents if they're in the wrestling and their kids are into mr t in the Hulk and all that stuff then i guess it's up to the parents because obviously the wrestling community is not taking the responsibility so it's up to the parents to really set kids straight it's like the three stooges you know it's cartoon violence in other words it's not real and the children should be told to be very careful and not emulate these guys it's weird how like his focus is like this it's not even about him he's kind of making it a you know look at the bird over here look over here it's not about this it's about the children i'm richard bell's well also i think i think the bird of paradise has flown up his nose but even more so than that it's the attitude of mr t in the hulk about hurting people and inflicting pain and the way they openly talk about it and advocate it that to me is sickening you know mr t says i like to hurt people i mean who likes to hurt people psychopaths like to hurt people it's okay if they're talking about wrestling in general but it's another idea saying you're going around the streets and beating people up mr t was noted for that in those days it's one night he's on network television on the a team the next day he's out the street beating people up and that everyone's a wimp if they don't weigh 300 pounds i mean what is that that's really mindless thug behavior so i don't know it's sickening i never was for the glorification of violence now it's being endorsed by celebrities which makes it even scarier i think these people should wake up celebrities that are kissing wrestlers asses it's not good anyway what else is there anything you'd like to add i don't know just that this is a trend in our country that america better wake up control wrestling and put it in its place and make sure the children are protected from the indiscriminate use of violence outside the ring the children i mean i think that if wrestling has any inner kind of intelligence they should get their act together and organize and not be controlled by one personality but they should have a board and have insurance for the wrestlers and protect the public against this good lord he's all over the place it seems like it's a trend that all of a sudden exploded on the scene and people are very impressionable and they see celebrities involved in it you know i think wrestling is a chance to really clean up its act and be safe and be a helpful form of entertainment but it seems they are going in another direction and it's scary to me frankly richard thank you very much okay thank you and then it says here after that'll that'll be a hundred dollars for that last eight ball after the interview richard requested that an unofficial poll be taken as to whether or not hulk hogan was at fault and what people really feel about this incident and the situation that has arisen with stossel and now belzer's own harrowing experience please send all comments to the wrestling press international scarstail new york interview and comments quotes copyright 1985 by paul hayman and the wrestling press international interview conducted in the lifetime cable studios new york city so there we go thought it was in a bathroom at a bar there we go paul hayman enterprise i mean that's the thing i guess when you look back at all the early stuff with hayman and everything now he's an enterprising guy he's a bullshitter but he uses his bullshit to get in the door and you know eventually he had his own thing but just always networking always presenting always performing and it got him here so i mean obviously he must be happy with how it worked out but these early years are pretty interesting and that transcript validates what i've always thought about the front face lock incident because remember i've always said it when hogan i believe hogan cranked up on it to let richard belzer know you know hey type of thing but it was three seconds at most and then belzer flopped like a goddamn circus seal the only way that a hold like that can put you out that instantly is if your heart's beaten a million miles an hour then i have a feeling richard's belzer's heart spent a lot of time at that time period of the 80s beating a million 100 million miles an hour that you know kind of gives me more evidence well there it is do you think it's a real interview would you talk to some 20 year old fucking wrestling press numb nuts for that long if you weren't just in having a talkative day and again the photo i have of richard belzer reading the wrestling news if we're going to assume that poll hayman took that photo there that day again how do you get in if this guy's talking to the times the post the daily news news day all of a sudden the rest he said it was it was uh conducted at the lifetime cable station was somewhere or another paulie got in there and convinced him that he was somebody to do with something and got an interview with him that's just while he's waiting to shoot some kind of cable show well there it is from the files paul hayman i guess part two of the paul hayman files i think next week we need to read the rockford files well there it is jim our opening and i guess closing of the files for today our look at wrestling history as it was put into the files of the wrestling news any final thoughts yes just keep listening to our various broadcasts and every time that we can find a file we're going to bake it into a cake and serve it to you so yeah something like that and of course you hear us on the drive-thru in the experience in the official jim cornet youtube channel but until next time for jim cornet i'm the great brian last tally ho getting bored of companies who spend 30 seconds listening to their awards so are we here's what you actually need to know capital.com is rated 4.6 on trustpilot and 4.8 on trading view that's based on real reviews by people just like you join over 750 000 plus traders who use capital.com capital.com trade with clarity 62 percent of retail investor accounts lose money when trading spread bets and cfds with this provider