Star Wars Week 2026, Part 2: Way of the Sith

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. On the Look Back At It podcast. 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I mean, it was a wild year. Wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back At It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor IV. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. 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This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit of armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability, that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb. And I am Joe McCormick. And we are returning today with the second part in our Star Wars Week series. In the last episode, we focused exclusively on the ice planet Hoth from The Empire Strikes back. We took a close look at Tauntaun physiology and how that relates to realities from paleontology in the real world about theropod dinosaurs that lived in freezing Arctic and Antarctic conditions in the Cretaceous period. We also talked about the real world viability of the infamous Tauntaun sleeping bag, the whole segment there about how long can you survive inside a gutted horse in a frozen environment. And then finally, we looked at the ecology of the carnivorous beast of Hoth, the wampa. So if you haven't heard part one, I'd recommend go check that one out first. But for today, we're going to be changing gears and focusing on some Sith psychology topics, or maybe a general episode on Sith science. Yes, yes. And you know, I was thinking maybe I should have actually worn my black hoodie all the way for a Sith episode, you know, but, you know, applied less eye cream, that sort of thing. Do it. But it's too late for that. We have to go with what I got. It is too late for you now. Okay. Well, why don't you take things first? I know we both have our own sort of Sith psychology topics we want to address, but you have a very good one that I'm keen for us to get to. Yeah. Yeah. I guess first we'll just briefly mention what the Sith are. I think everyone listening to this has a pretty good idea, but yeah, we're talking about the bad guys of the majority of the Star Wars films. This is the dark side force religion, dark side philosophy, and also an ancient warrior cult that long existed in stark opposition to the Jedi Order. And while the Jedi stressed balance and equanimity, the Sith embraced the power of negative emotional states, using those states as their key to force manipulation, harnessing this submerged power of the force. And they seek both worldly and otherworldly power through violent oppression. That sounds about right. Hate, anger, viciousness, selfishness, that they don't only practice these things, they conceptually embrace them. They say, yes, that's what I am and it's what I'm for. Yeah. Red lightsabers, black hooded figures, that sort of thing. You know, they have their own aesthetic that they cling to as well. And, you know, just as the Jedi are based in large part on a number of Eastern concepts, we can look to various examples of the Sith's sort of dark magic and say Daoist tradition, where it might be portrayed as an imbalance of yin and yang, favoring the subtle hidden darkness of yin. Not in this context because yin is evil, but because everything has to be balanced. And if you're pursuing something that is lopsided, that is out balance well then it can become a dark path well not to get overly nerdy but i do now recall some of the temptations offered by sith lords in the star wars movies often are bids for balance right like it doesn't uh at this point senator palpatine uh explain his his uh knowledge of the dark side of the force to the young anakin by saying that we have to understand both sides not just the dogmatic one side of the Jedi. Yeah, this is pretty fascinating. And this is also a trend or thread anyway, that is discussed later in some of the sequel materials, as I remember, this idea that, you know, maybe it's like the Jedi are not the ultimate answer either, but there's some sort of ultimate in between a balance of forces that there has to be darkness and light. And, you know, certainly would be more in keeping with with with Dallas philosophy, for example. But even in Taoist treatment of magic, there's a lot of talk about what happens when your interests become increasingly driven by ego or focused on harmful intent. And then you couple this with a desire for immortality, but not immortality for any noble reason, but just for selfishness and a hunger for power. And yeah, then it becomes a dark road. But yeah, there's an interesting case to be made, and perhaps exactly the kind of case a Sith Lord would make, that the path of the Jedi is also one of imbalance. That if you ignore these dark paths, something else is out of line. And, you know, certainly we see case after case of light Jedi that ends up falling into darkness, and maybe that is because there's sort of a pendulum situation in place here. Yeah, that is interesting. So there is some truth to the idea of the narrowness of the Jedi. Yet at the same time, I think, at least within the prequel films, I know this bid for balance that Palpatine makes is ultimately revealed to be a false temptation. Oh, yes. You know, it's not it's not actually bringing Anakin or Palpatine to a place of of greater, more harmonious understanding. It is a bid to like, no, why don't you try it? Come come taste the dark side. That's really the operative thing there. Yeah, Darth Sidious slash Emperor Palpatine, you know, tremendous villain, but also absolutely a villain, absolutely a murderous, hateful, mass murdering, genocidal ruler. So, yeah, without any doubt, he is the villain in the scenario. But there's never just one Sith villain, is there? that's right uh star wars fans are well aware of the sith rule of two uh which if you dig into the lore reportedly was instituted by sith lord darth bane after the dark force order slash religion was nearly eradicated by the jedi order during the jedi sith war and uh as uh the and part of this too is that the apparently the old republic era sith uh this is back when there were a lot of sith There was a whole full-fledged faction like you might encounter in the Knights of the Old Republic games. They were apparently played by infighting. And this restructuring was also intended to provide increased stability as well as secrecy that would enable the Sith to not only survive long enough to regain their power, but also to eventually enact some sort of horrible vengeance against the Jedi. But so functionally, what is the Sith rule of two? All right. So basically it is that we're going to reduce this entire force religion, dark side force religion, to a two-person religious order, a two-person organization for the most part. And as we mentioned in the last episode, we're not going to be completely dogmatic when it comes to the lore here, realizing that within canon Star Wars fandom and extended universe lore, legends, if you will, there are going to be a lot of additional facts. And we're happy to talk about all of that over email, and we can get into it in listener mail. But we're going to deal in pretty broad strokes for the most part here. Now, while we always do accept factual corrections, I will say if you're too pedantic about Star Wars lore, you may be in for some light ribbing if we address it in listener mail. Yeah, yeah. All right. So, yeah, always two there are, a master and an apprentice. From Bane onward, the Sith are able to exist in near secrecy for roughly a thousand years. A master, the master of the two, holds absolute power, while the apprentice craves that power, eventually, inevitably, slaying their own master and taking on a new apprentice to continue the chain. So the apprentice kills the master, becomes the new master, finds a new apprentice. And this chain continues with various ins and outs till the Sith apprentice Darth Sidious slays his master, Darth Plagueis, and takes on a series of apprentices himself, ultimately failing to pass the mantle of Sith Lord onto anybody else. However, of course, Sidious does largely succeed in the long-term Sith goal of eradicating the rival Jedi Order. So from his point of view, he gets a lot done, but he does not successfully pass on the torch to an apprentice. Right, right. Or pass on the torch. Okay, I actually have a question. Maybe you don't know the answer, but if you do, are the Sith aware? They're like explicitly aware that it goes, the apprentice kills the master and then takes the master's place? Like, do they have this in mind? It's like part of the plan? Well, I haven't, to my memory, I haven't read a novelization or encountered any media that like directly gets into this. I'm sure they do. But my sort of gut read on all of this is that you're dealing with very egotistical individuals. and I can easily imagine that as the apprentice, you know, this is the way things go. And you know that the pattern has always been that the new dark lord then takes on an apprentice and that apprentice rises up and kills the master. But you can easily imagine that once the individual becomes the dark lord, they probably think they are the exception to the rule. I'm different. Yes. Very Very perceptive. Yes, that must be that way. Or in the same way that you will have various individuals throughout history who recognize the basic power structure that allows them to take power, but then reject it as soon as it is also the means to their own exit from power. So you see that time and time again. a standard part of the tyrant's playbook and it is powered by by hubris yeah thinking that i i'm different the rules don't apply to me like they do to everybody else right right so i wanted to get into the rule of two here a little bit uh you know to be to be clear it it fulfills its main purpose in that it is it makes for great drama it makes for great lore um and you know ultimately we're talking about black magic space wizards so it's silly to get too serious about all of this But I think it's also fun to, in good faith, do some computation on this question. So let's start with just the realm of secrecy. Again, the Sith want to stay very secretive throughout this rebuilding phase so that they can eventually carry out their vengeance. Make sure the Jedi forget about us and then we can rise up. So there is, of course, an old adage that reminds us that three can keep a secret if two of them are dead. and the logic is that secrets can only effectively be kept by parties of one, and I don't know that there's much to be gained by going into a lot of game theory on this one. I originally thought I might go in that direction, but at the end of the day, a lot of this comes down to the advantages gained by keeping or revealing secrets, and very broadly, the whole Sith rule of two depends on the master keeping at least some secrets of power to themselves, and then the promise of those secrets and power is the sole thing driving the apprentice both their loyalty and their eventual betrayal of their master but all things i mean all things considered equal if you reduce your organization to just two people you're probably going to have a much easier time keeping things secret um there's going to be fewer leaks that way um fewer people uh exiting the company and so forth. Yeah, it is hard for me to imagine a model by which adding more people to the conspiracy decreases the odds of being leaked. Yeah. Yeah. Two people secrecy, two people conspiracy makes sense. However, coming back to that whole if two are dead example, secrets are best kept when everyone is dead. And the kicker is that having a secret society of two is in fact very close to the absolute secrecy that comes with death, which leads us to our next consideration, and that is stability of your organization, your two-person organization moving across time. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I was thinking about is if there is only one master and one apprentice and you consider the master the expert in the dark side of the force, if the master dies before the apprentice's training is complete, doesn't that mean that some expertise has just been lost? Yeah. Like nobody else knows it. Nobody has access to it. There are so many ways that can go wrong. Like another way I was thinking about is if the master becomes hesitant to in some way let go of his power. And this is kind of difficult to hash out because like the master traditionally only gives up his power when he is killed. But then the model is sort of a passing of the baton. But if the master is too good at not being killed, he might eventually get bumped off by a rather undeserving apprentice. You know, like he eventually, like he's just defeated one apprentice, his like fifth apprentice. He brings in a sixth apprentice. This guy's just as green as grass. But the master is so old and so weakened from these various secession battles that he's just knocked off really easily. and now the whole order is left in the hands of someone who has no idea what they're doing. Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, and then how are you going to build up your momentum to take out the Jedi order at that point? Yeah. So, yeah, the idea is this chain of master and apprentice has to continue undisrupted across the centuries. Centuries again, during which the Sith are supposedly keeping a low profile, but you know these guys. It doesn't mean they're doing nothing. They're staying isolated, but they're still going to encounter threats and dangers. You know, they're going to have their own adventures. And there's probably going to be one or two crackpot Jedi out there who are convinced that the Sith are still out there and we should maybe try and hunt them down. I mean, if we just take the case of Darth Sidious, I'd say even within your own execution of plans, there seems to be a lot of danger. There's, you know, all these ruses with being kidnapped by droid separatists and things like that. It's placing yourself in an awful lot of danger, especially when you are the only repository of Sith knowledge now. Well, I guess not the only one at this point, because when that happened, there was still a Dooku out there, wasn't there? Yeah, but always, you know, there's always the sense that he is holding something back. There are secrets he not going to pass on yet even though we do catch him more or less in a lie here with Anakin because he like I know how people can live forever I know how to bring the dead back to life And then once he actually brings Anakin into the fold he like we got some work to do on this But I have some great leads on the answer to this question Who would have thought it that Sith Lords will lie? They will sometimes make false promises. Yeah. Yeah. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor IV. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah, for me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to Look Back At It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keir Gaines. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you're here on Earth? Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hard Way and listen now. So one, there are obviously several problems, potential problems with this this this setup. So even if this is a stable system, so, you know, at least, you know, through these long centuries of not making huge swings to take over the Republic, how much work can the Sith get done given that they're an asymmetrical two-person organization? So, again, not even like a full partnership, but a master and apprentice setup. Very good question. I actually just have some more questions occurring to me, but I want to let you go with this first. Okay. So, I mean, obviously, corporations and governments, they have a hard time keeping secrets, but they can also do things at a much larger scale, at industrial scale. But, you know, presumably one of the main reasons that a Sith Lord takes on an apprentice at all is that they need a powerful underling. They need some help. It's not a one-person job. and yeah they may have a small network of less powerful minions and some of these minions may have just no idea what their master's all about you know it may be a hidden identity like oh we don't we don't work for a dark lord we work for a senator or or you know whatever the cover story may be but yeah it seems like you're going to be very limited in what you can do and therefore any kind of like vengeance you're planning against, you know, a major interplanetary civilization, it's going to take some time building that up. Yeah, totally. We also might look at this greatly reduced and sustained, you know, reduced population of two as an extreme bottleneck for an organization. I've recently been reading about various new religious movements, and by and large, you tend to find that a two-person religion, which essentially is what the Sith are in this case, it constitutes either the beginning or the end of a religion, not so much the heyday of it. I think I would have known, even without looking ahead in the notes, which examples you may be thinking of here. But it does strike me as common that at the beginning of a new religious movement, And it's often not just one person preaching or crying in the wilderness. It's one person and another loyalist. There's somebody there to be giving the message and somebody else there to be saying, that's right. Yeah, yeah. I think you can look at a number of new religious movements where you have a pair of individuals, sometimes falling into the roles of visionary on one hand and organizer on the other. and that between the two of them, they're able to sort of codify the faith in its early goings. And also there might be even be in some cases a kind of like shared paranoia, you know, like the two individuals can really be a think tank for the creation of some sort of new faith, you know, really enhancing whatever the kind of outside viewpoint or outside worldview is being nurtured in this partnership. So two examples that came to my mind. First of all, the Heaven's Gate religious group at its peak had hundreds of members, but initially consisted of just Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, who developed and largely solidified the teachings that would gain masses of followers. A second example that comes to mind is that from 2017 to 2025, the United Society of Believers and Christ's Second Appearing, or the Shakers—some of you may have Shakers on the brain because it was the topic. The founding of the Shakers was covered in the excellent film The Testament of Anne Lee, which I highly recommend, really good view. Between 2017 and 2025, they were reduced to just two followers. And this was due, I believe, in large part, among other factors, to the group's key teachings against procreation. It's hard to really build up your follower base if whilst in the movement you're not supposed to have any offspring. Now, I'm to understand they've subsequently absorbed a third member, but unless something drastically changes, it's hard to imagine that this group's stability is improving and that they're on the upswing. Incidentally, it has also been reported that Heaven's Gate is currently reduced to two members active in kind of a caretaker role for the movement's website and publications. But again, also not a case where I think there's a strong argument to be made that Heaven's Gate has a big future ahead of them in terms of building up those followers. Right. So, yeah, you could see the synergy of a two-person religious movement as a great sort of consolidation engine. And maybe there's even, again, shared paranoia that helps cement a radical worldview. And I think a lot of that rather fits the Sith. You can imagine this lone Sith Lord and Sith Apprentice like out there in the galactic wilderness, just getting like crazier and crazier and more overflowing with hatred. And it just, you know, solidifies various aspects of their philosophy. But, you know, if the faith undergoes changes during these 10 years, during these little think tank periods, well, what happens if it undergoes too much change? One can easily imagine it doing so, and that would seem to put the whole multi-generational enterprise in some sort of jeopardy. Because on one hand, what if the Sith Lord and his apprentice begin introducing changes that make the faith less desirable by others and less compatible with the larger world? So it might be harder to bring on the next apprentice and allow the faith to continue on into a new generation or reach the point where it is able to carry out its vengeance. or what if it makes it like more palpable to a larger audience and in doing so brings about the end of the secret small scale you know niche system that they've put in place now i actually have a question i wonder if you know the answer to this in the prequel films we see that anakin skywalker is lured into apprenticeship with darth sidious under false pretenses like this this relationship begins, the mentorship begins without Anakin knowing that he is a Sith Lord, and they've already become pretty close and established some loyalty before there is a revelation. Is that a standard recruiting pitch, or are there a lot of apprenticeships that begin with full knowledge that, I'm a Sith Lord, I need a Sith apprentice, how about you? I think, I'm trying to remember exactly, but I believe it is more like that with Dooku. apprenticeship. I think it's a little more out in the open like that. So, and, you know, you could, I think there's a larger understanding that the Sith are not the only dark force users in the galaxy. So there may be a case where there's already someone who's been exploring the dark side of the force, at least in an amateur fashion, maybe even within the confines of another sort of dark force religion, and then someone else comes along and says, hey, here you're into this dark force stuff. Let me tell you about the Sith. Would you like to go pro? Yeah, because obviously we see this with a lot of different religious movements and religious groups, you know, where someone gets into, say, you know, ufology and some sort of UFO religion before, you know, changing up, joining a different one, starting their own. And we don't even have to look to UFO religions. We can look to various Christian groups or any group associated with any of the major longstanding world religions. So, yeah, the recruitment policy, the actual details of the recruitment, I guess, could vary. But we might even look at the recruitment of Anakin as being an outlier, where he's like, hey, I have to admit something to you. I'm a Sith Lord. And then Anakin's like, what? What are you talking about? and he has to remind him, well, I'm also your friend and I've made sense on all these other points. So you have to continue to follow me into this. Yeah. Well, I guess you could look at that from a storytelling point of view as Anakin is a particularly high value apprentice and it is worth the risk of making this overture toward a potentially non-receptive pupil because he's so high quality, because he's good. Yeah, yeah. I guess it's hard to imagine. I guess you'd have to deal with a scenario where you'd have to have like a very high-profile celebrity that is being indoctrinated into a certain religion or a head of state or something like that. That would probably be the—something along those lines would be comparable to the scenario. But, yeah, again, I can't help but think, like, what are the risks to changes to Sith doctrine? Because presumably they have traditions, they have books, but then you end up with certainly one, maybe two individuals at max having a tremendous amount of control over how the religion is portrayed and interpreted. I was reminded, for instance, something we've discussed in the show before the example of the late 18th dynasty pharaoh Akhenaten, who elevated the solar deity Aten and above all the other gods of the Egyptian pantheon and in this case, his successors and the religious establishment returned things to the way they were after his death but you can imagine cases especially with a small system like this where that wouldn't be possible or desired depending on what one or two individuals end up coming in the wake of it yeah that's right so instead of there being a whole people to remember the old gods and then lead us back to the old ways it could be that like we've been saying with these other things that the knowledge of the old ways are wiped out yeah it only conceivably takes conceivably takes one sith lord to say, actually, we're not really all about getting revenge on the Jedi anymore. You know, we're a dark side religion, but we're peaceful and we don't believe in violence. You know, it's like those kind of changes could conceivably take place within one generation of the religion and then it gets passed on to the next. And then if there is any kind of like expansion of population or like, you know, clergy, then things could become solidified in a way that you don't easily backslide from. Now, there's one thing I was wondering about a minute ago that I wanted to bring up quickly, which is the Sith are very open in their embrace of moral vices. So, you know, the Sith, at least as far as I'm aware, maybe it's different in some of the books or something, but it seems like they're openly advocating of they openly advocate hate. Of course, negative emotions like anger and hate, but also treachery and deception and things like that. And that kind of makes me feel like it would undermine a conspiracy because a conspiracy may be deceptive in its overall presentation to the larger structure of politics or to the outside world. I would think that within a conspiracy, there actually has to be some level of trust, you know, some kind of like mutual trust and shared values. And so if there's a conspiracy of two people and they both openly say that lying and treachery and backstabbing are good, how do you effectuate enough trust to carry out a conspiracy together? That's a great point. And I think that might actually be a point that is difficult to come up with an answer to. We maybe have to do a fair amount of mental gymnastics to make it work. Because, yeah, if everyone's a backstabber, then how do you establish any kind of working trust? I mean, I guess the easy answer is that the apprentice needs the power and the knowledge of the master. And so he's going to be, they're going to be loyal as long as they can and in order to gain that information. And meanwhile, the master needs the help of the apprentice to carry out whatever, you know, tasks and duties and plots they have in mind. And so they're going to have some sort of loyalty to them as well. But yeah, eventually you're going to get into some sort of a scenario where that trust is going to decay. And actually, you know, we're we're about to get into that a bit here because, you know, again, the the the the passing of the baton pretty much exclusively. I think there may be some counterexamples if you get into the deeper like comic book and novel lore and the expanded universe and so forth and legends. but for the most part, it has, the transition has to occur when an apprentice kills the master. And, um, and you can tease that apart, like it, to what extent is the master letting go at that point Um you know at what point if they sort of like pushed it to the level where okay I have a worthy apprentice because they can physically kill me I guess you can sort of look at it that way But then you get into this question of like what happens when the master doesn't want to pass the baton one way or the other? And I think we actually do kind of see an example of that in the Star Wars movies with Darth Sidious, because like, look at how it ends up going for him. He ends up running through at least, what, three different apprentices, tries to get a fourth, essentially. And in the background is, seems to be very devoted to the idea of long-term reign and even some manner of physical immortality, you know, especially when you get into some of the expanded universe stuff and some of the stuff that they're cooking up with like the Mandalorian series now, with the idea that he wants to continue his own physical existence through like clone bodies. Like this is not a guy who's looking to actually have any kind of a successful passing of the baton. Yes. Yeah. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep. That's me. Clipper Taylor, the fourth. You might've seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to Look Back At It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me. your host and your favorite therapist, Keir Gaines. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you're here on earth or are you a good person because you're free? Because that's two different intentions bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth fatherhood, pressure and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hard Way and listen now. And so this leads to another, I think I found really interesting, real-world analog, that of the successor's dilemma. So the basic problem here is an ancient one in human society, and you don't need black magic wizards in order to crunch it. But, you know, a ruler or individual in some level of great authority and power eventually has to contemplate the continuation of the organization after they die or leave their post. A successor must be chosen. But as we know from countless human dramas, the most famous of which is probably King Lear, complexities, complications often arise. Yes. and of course there are plenty of successor dramas uh playing out in the you know political world and the religious world all around us uh but the kings of our modern age are of course sometimes the leaders of industry ceos and uh so for this next part here i wanted to uh turn to what was this is this is something that exists largely in the business world so i wasn't really familiar with it. But there is something called the Successor's Dilemma, and it originates with Dan Champa and Michael Watkins, who introduced it in their November-December 1999 Harvard Business Review article of the same title. And you can pull this up in full on the internet, as I did. So the authors of this piece argue that leadership transitions in the business world, being the main focus here, they often go awry with considerable frequency, generally due to an emotionally charged power struggle between the outgoing CEO and the incoming successor. And you can guess the basic typical factors here if you've ever watched even a single human drama about this sort of thing. And to be clear, you're not talking about this drama happening only in the case where like an older CEO is being in some hostile way pushed out and replaced against their will. Like this would be the case even for voluntary handovers of power. Right. And really, that's their main focus is not a situation where you're bringing in some sort of a hostile outsider. Like this is like best laid plans territory that we're talking about here. So this is the way they basically lay it out is happening. So a CEO realizes, as does the board or surrounding corporate structure, that they need to lay the groundwork for someone to carry on leadership after the CEO leaves. CEO positions, after all, are not generally lifetime appointments. Sometimes they kind of work out that way for one reason or another. But, you know, at some point they're going to need to pass the reins on to a selected heir and everyone rests more easily if there is, in fact, a plan for this and not just a mad scramble. Again, in the business world, you're going to have a board. You're going to have the entire corporate structure. You're going to have shareholders and everything else. And they barely are mentioned at all in this article. But you also have employees whose salaries and livelihoods depend on the overall corporation functioning in a healthy manner. Right. So having a planned handoff in place or at least having the appearance of such is not just for the actual functional value that it would provide when the handoff happens. It's also to for appearances, to calm people, to give people assurances. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so through some combination of corporate world mysticism and politics, a successor is chosen, an heir apparent, often from outside the company, who now has the job of preparing for their eventual ascension to CEOhood or CEOdom, learning from the master while also making, quote, organizational and strategic changes to prepare the company for the time when he will lead it. Okay, so giving the appearance of both learning and also making their mark as the new leader. Yeah. The preparation to say, I'm in charge now, and you will observe that because I'm going to do something. Right. And you know, this is often, you're dealing with the sorts of people here that are generally going to be movers and shakers, and you're often dealing with some sort of like generational change. Like this is the leader that's going to take us into the digital age. This is the leader that's going to take us into the AI age or whatever, you know, the argument happens to be. Going to manage our pivot to blockchain. Yeah, that sort of thing. And so you have initially a period where everybody feels really great about this. The CEO and the board, they're like they're really patting themselves on the back saying, yeah, yeah, this is this is the guy. This is the this is the person. This is the next generation. and they, you know, they're all about the stability that they've engineered here. But then feathers begin to ruffle. The acting CEO ends up having trouble letting go. This is very human. We can all get this, you know, fueled by ego, worried over legacy, and on varying levels, perhaps about mortality itself. They may be dealing with like the end of their career and that forces them to think even about the end of their life. Yeah, exactly. And not just at the CEO level. I mean, you know, you can read lots of accounts of people managing, you know, retirement or late career transitions and thinking about thinking about mortality as a result. It kind of is inevitable that your thoughts go there. And a lot of people don't want to think about that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, all this is very relatable. But meanwhile, the successor, they there's there's actually a lot of a lot of weight on their shoulders as well. They're expected to deliver upon taking over, but they need the cooperation of the existing CEO to reach that point. And, you know, they're risking alienation of that CEO if they push too hard from their end. And the relationship basically begins to drastically sour at this point. And, you know, just as the CEO is realizing that they need to leave on their own, they're hit with the threatening realization, you know, to varying degrees true, that their successor wants them to leave. And again, they may not be with any heat. They're like, I was brought on to be the new CEO. You know, I'm ready to take the reins. Like, I'm here. I'm a go-getter. That's why they hired me. That's why they're paying me the big bucks. And this this this this begins to be a sour situation between the two individuals. I mean, you can imagine even for the exact same person, it might feel good to believe you are voluntarily under no pressure handing over power, but feel very bad if you think there is pressure on you to give up power. Yeah. Yeah. Like, even if it's as simple as like, well, I was going to I was going to try we're going to do this baton passing next Friday and now you want it Thursday. And now I feel, you know, attacked, you know, and I think we can understand how that would be. So this is where the true dilemma sets in, according to the authors here. What's the successor supposed to do? The more they push, the more push back they're going to get from the acting CEO and any loyal board members or members of the corporate structure. And they're going to be left with two choices. Either they wage open war against the current CEO. They begin to really push and try to push them out and take that top position. Or they quit. They walk away and they say, you know, all right, if you're not going to, if you don't want me to be the new CEO, I'm going to leave. I have other offers out there. And according to the authors, both of these choices are pretty bad ones. They stress that open war with this acting CEO, this can get really ugly and apparently rarely works. So the idea of a hostile takeover, it's going to be a very risky swing that likely is going to end in defeat. meanwhile stepping down and leaving the company they say this might end up being like a high profile failure that could tarnish any any future prospects um so again we're talking about like you know really high achieving individuals that really want to be at the top of whatever company they're in so i don't know the one thing to keep in mind here is failure for that individual still sounds a lot like victory for most people out in the world, where it's like, oh, you don't get to be number one in a company. You only get to be a high-paid, high-powered number two or three. But from their point of view, it could be a colossal failure. It's kind of a classic Shakespearean or Greek tragedy point of view that whether literally or just figuratively, the loss of power and kingship is death. Yeah, yeah. And the authors here argue that the situation is made all the more dire because relatively few individuals in an organization can actually help with the matter once it's reached this point. So not other board members, not HR, just the two individuals trapped in the dilemma. They're the only ones who can really act. And everyone has something to lose in the scenario, the board, the company, the shareholders, without mention the employees, and the CEO themselves, But the successor, they argue, has the most to lose and therefore has to be the one to manage the situation. And so the authors here, they have served as professional advisors for situations like this. But their core advice in this original paper is four part. They're saying these are the four steps that the successor, in our cis scenario, this would be the apprentice, can consider getting into the scenario, like even ahead of a potential dilemma. So first of all, they say the successor needs to work ahead of time to better understand the current CEO and their emotional readiness to step aside long before they even accept the number two position. Now, we'll have to come back and kind of translate this piece of advice for our Star Wars scenario because of major differences in how the transition happens. how the power handoff happens usually in CEOs versus the Sith Lords. But I think we can go ahead and handle this first bit of advice because I don't think it's particularly applicable to the Sith scenario because the Siths are such obvious liars and there's so much secrecy involved. Like what Sith apprentice is really going to be able to get a handle on their Sith master's willingness to eventually give up power? I just don't know that there's any way that they could really, you know, move on that. But it makes sense from a CEO standpoint. All right. What's the rest of the advice? So number two on the CEO level is the successor has to make regular communication with the CEO a priority. Okay. That seems valuable. Maybe even for Sith. Who knows? I think so. I think it is a basic human reality that the more communication two individuals have, the better. Even if they're two Sith just lying their faces off to each other, at least you have some sort of back and forth that can be read and interpreted. So I'm going to I'm going to stick with that being a piece of advice that that does stand. Well, let me iterate on that just one way, which is that we're all familiar with ways that communication can go bad. communication like a you know a text message or an email can be read the wrong way it can be taken with more hostility or some negative emotion that wasn't really intended by the person writing it communication can of course increase tensions and problems but i think in a lot of cases we i don't know maybe thinking about that aspect we underappreciate how much tensions and problems can be created just by lack of communication yeah that with silence can really amplify pre-existing worries and ambiguities and almost any communication, as long as it's not overtly negative or hostile, can reduce those negative ambiguities. And I think this is true in all different kinds of relationships from, you know, family and romantic relationships to work relationships to whatever. It's just usually it's good to check in to like having some kind of communication is better than just radio silence and leaving people having no idea what's going on. Like in the CEO scenario, even if it's just getting together to play golf or to talk about golf. Yeah. Yeah Or in the Sith scenario getting together to play golf or talk about golf That would probably do wonders for avoiding any unnecessary early violence between the two This race is a great question Do Sith Lords ever have fun? You never see them doing anything that make it seem like, oh, wow, it'd be great to be a Sith Lord. You know, all these movies about like crime bosses and stuff. Yeah, they lead these horrible squalid lives full of like sin and betrayal and treating people poorly, but at least you usually get to see them having fun and enjoying their wealth. I don't remember any scenes like that for the Sith Lords. If you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. I guess so. I mean, Palpatine does have a really swank, dark office towards the end of his days as a secret Sith Lord. And then I guess really gets into the aesthetics of imperial rule once he's out in the open. He just likes looking out the windows at Coruscant. No, that's true. I think Palpatine probably does get a lot of genuine pleasure from commissioning monuments and having things built in his honor. Yeah, you should see the ballroom that he has. Exactly, yes. But anyway, coming back to the list here, their number three bit of advice to an incoming CEO or the apprentice in our scenario is, The successor needs to lean on a balanced personal advice network to navigate any struggles or problems. I think that's a great bit of advice for the CEO scenario and probably for a lot of real world scenarios. Doesn't really help the Sith scenario all that much because given its secretive to individual structure, there's not really going to be a personal advice network that you can lean on balanced or otherwise. I'm writing a story in which someone is a secret Sith Lord. What do you think they would do in this scenario? Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be some droids or uninitiated underlings you might bounce some ideas off of, but, you know, they're probably not going to be great help. And you're just going to get them lightsabered by sharing anything with them. See, my main character, Shmanekin, is really trying to figure out if his Sith Lord will tell him the secret of life and death. Yeah. And then finally, the fourth bit of advice they have is stay focused on professional goals, not the, quote, emotional traps that surround them. That feels like good advice. I think in the real world, also probably easier said than done. There's probably a lot of coaching that goes into realizing that. within the Sith context, I would say there are probably quite a lot of emotional traps in the Sith Master-Sith Apprentice relationship. But yeah, it might be good to be able to figure out which ones are traps and work around them. They openly embrace emotional traps. They do. That's right. They're all about negative emotional states. Give in to hate. They're constantly messing with each other. So yeah, that's a good question. To what extent can you even navigate around those emotional traps, you've got to indulge them to some degree. This is like giving that advice to somebody at a corporation where their product is making their own executives angry and hateful. Like, it's just not, it cannot be followed. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting to think about this transition as being like the CEO transition. But obviously, as we've been driving home, there are a number of key differences. is for starters, the would-be CEO, I think is going to have a hard time just quitting in the Sith scenario. Because what are you going to do? You're just going to say, actually, I'm not a Sith anymore. That sounds like a great way to get lightsabered. They're probably- Live on Tatooine, maybe. There are probably some expanded universe examples, but the only one I could think of where you have somebody sort of quit the Sith is by being left for dead. So like Darth Maul is cut in half, presumed dead later re-emerges as an underworld criminal figure. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. He comes back. He does. He comes back in first in the, the, the clone war series and then, and then in rebels and then it makes a brief cameo in the Han Solo movie that came out years back. And, and his, his storyline is really interesting. I mean, he's, he's a much more interesting character after his death than he was before, but he never achieves the same level. So it's like, this is very much a guy who's never going to make CEO again. I mean, he gets, he kind of becomes CEO of Darth Maul crime incorporated, but a much smaller organization. Do you get to see him having fun? No, he is especially miserable for the rest of his life. Palpatine Sidious is having a great time compared to Maul. Okay. But you know, he's working his way up. He's, he's focused on his goals. Let's see. And then, of course, we already mentioned how there is the whole aspect of the thing where the Sith Lord does have to eventually die in order for the transition to take place. And so, you know, that's going to add a certain amount of weight to the whole scenario. Yeah. Anyway, interesting to think about all this. Again, I'm going to say that I think it's a severe bottleneck for a two-person religious organization to go about things like this. And I think that we can look to Palpatine's example as a downfall that is directly tied to the successor's dilemma, as he proves himself more concerned with holding on to life and power himself than to truly passing on the mantle. probably, I think, very much in his own mind, seeing himself and his own rule as the culmination of this system and not a part of the chain, which, you know, given the egotistical nature of tyrannical rule, I think this is pretty common. You see this time after time through human history. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor IV. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to Look Back At It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keir Gaines. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses steve burns dustin ross because you find it important to be a good person while you're here on earth are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that's two different levels of trust i want you to just really be a good person join me kia gains is we have real conversations about healing growth fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hard Way, and listen now. Now, I know that you watched and very much enjoyed Andor, as I did, and we never see the emperor in that. He is alluded to, and there's some great bits where, I forget the spymaster's character's name, but he's like, I spoke with the Emperor earlier today. And, you know, if that's true or not, his name is invoked like that. And apparently at some level in writing the Andor series, they considered using the Emperor as a character. Like they had access to the character and the actor. They could have employed him to some degree, but they couldn't figure out the way to do it that they liked, you know, what was the right balance. So I am curious how they thought about portraying his relationship with his, you know, more political advisors and, you know, spy world operatives, as opposed to, you know, figures like Darth Vader and, you know, and rivals and so forth. I actually very much liked the way he does not appear directly in the story. I think that made the story, I don't know, that worked very well in the execution of Andor from my perspective, that the ultimate villain of the story exists at a remove and we only get their will expressed second hand and third hand through all of these obsequious underlings who are all fighting each other, trying to get, you know, in the better graces of the emperor who we never meet. Yeah. And again, may not even really be in direct communication with him. Right. So, yeah, I think it was absolutely the correct choice for the series. yeah but i you know i'm i've not gone into a lot of uh the you know star wars extended universe stuff i haven't seen some of the more recent movies and shows and stuff but i thought indoor was fantastic it was really good yeah absolutely all right folks well we have just uh gone off mic and looked at the time and said you know what we've got to wrap up this episode here we had a whole other section we planned on doing today, but it's pretty long, pretty substantial, and it would probably really just make a whole other episode worth. That segment, by the way, I'll just go ahead and tease it, is going to be called Palp Facts, where we just fact-check some claims made by our beloved Emperor Palpatine. Yes, we may even at times say, you know, don't like that Emperor Palpatine, but he was right on a few things. He tells it like it is. It tells it like it is. Sometimes. Yeah. So, yeah, we're going to come back with some PALP facts and some fact-checking the Emperor in the future. But I think that's it for today, right? Yeah, that'll be it for this, our second episode for Star Wars week. But, yeah, keep an eye on the feed because in the future we'll come back in and we'll finish up this treatment. Perhaps it's just kind of like a standalone episode, but you'll be able to tell. It's essentially the third Star Wars episode. All right. Let's see. In the meantime, what else should we tell you? Well, we'll just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episode on Wednesdays. And then on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on weird house cinema. Indeed, tomorrow's episode of weird house cinema will be Star Wars related. I'll just go and let you know, I don't want to build up false hopes. We are not going to cover an actual Star Wars film. We are going to cover one of the many films that came out in the wake of Star Wars in an attempt to ride that wave of commercial success and maybe artistic success, though I think these efforts were more about making money. Oh, I think the one that we're going to do this week is maybe the greatest of the Star Wars ripoffs, arguably. All right. Well, join us for a conversation on that topic. In the meantime, we'll just remind you that, hey, you can get Stuff to Blow Your Mind episodes wherever you get your podcasts. We've been around for years and years at this point. So there's a vast audio reserve of episodes, a stockpile. We are also in video form on Netflix. Those are just recent episodes only, however. So if you're watching on Netflix, we thank you for doing that. Certainly give us some thumbs up and so forth, whatever the little bells and whistles are that you can click. But just remember that we have all these other episodes in audio format only, and you're going to find those wherever you get your audio podcasts. That's right. On Netflix, you can click Remind Me to get future video episodes of our show. On your podcast platforms, you just click Subscribe. And we encourage people to hop across platforms as well. So if you discovered us on Netflix, why not go subscribe to the audio wherever you get your podcasts or vice versa? If you only know us on audio, go check us out on Netflix. Let's see. Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Posway. If you would like to get in touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or just to say hello, you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor IV. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at It podcast. 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back At It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Keir Gaines. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit of armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability, that does not mean that you need to. Listen to Learn the Hard Way on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.