Mission Possible Partnership: 400 Partners. 7 Heavy Industries. 1 Goal: Net-Zero 2050

We're actually not depending on magic. We're not depending on a quantum leap. We actually know how to get to net zero on a step-by-step basis starting right now. And that, I think, should give us great confidence. This isn't about, again, magic in 2040. This is about reality today and following a very clear step-by-step. We got to hustle. We got to work fast. We have to do it at pace. But we actually know the steps to get from here to there. Welcome to this special English edition of Der Gorsche Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zibilla Barton, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's Great Reset Initiative, are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer. Today I'm very excited to welcome Matt Rogers, Chief Executive Officer of the Mission Possible Partnership. MPP is an alliance of climate leaders focused on supercharging decarbonisation across the entire value chain of the world's highest emitting industries in the next 10 years. Concrete, steel, aluminium and chemicals, as well as ships, planes and trucks that move them, are the building blocks of the global economy. These seven sectors are currently responsible for 30% of greenhouse gas emissions. MPP wants to radically change it and reach net zero by 2050. A very warm welcome to Matt Rogers in San Francisco, MPP's Chief Executive. And only recently has he been appointed to run this wonderful organisation. Congratulations. Mr. Rogers, how hopeful are you to reach this ambitious target? Good morning and thank you for that very kind introduction. You find me in week seven of this role. And I am very hopeful that in fact we can achieve net zero by 2050. The time is now. The technology is in place for many of these sectors to start moving now. The commitments are in place from major companies to make this work starting now. And the demand side, interestingly, the demand pull for many of these energy transitions is coming on very, very strong. So we have the opportunity across these seven industrial sectors to deliver ahead of schedule if we put our minds to it starting now. That sounds fantastic. Let's start at the beginning with MPP and its four core partners. Who are they and why did they get together and what's your main goal? Well, the goal is very straightforward, which is net zero by 2050 across these seven industrial sectors. Four organisations came together to form the Mission Possible partnership a little more than a year ago. The Energy Transitions Commission actually wrote the initial Mission Possible report back in 2018 and they've been essential for developing a set of the sector transition strategies for each of these seven sectors. The World Economic Forum, the second partner in this coalition, drove a set of very early convenings on this and has been central to driving convenings in each of the seven sectors in transport and materials. They've also put together things like the First Movers Coalition to really help accelerate the demand side of this. They've been involved in financing the energy transition. They're doing industrial clusters now in some good ways. We Mean Business brings together some of the most ambitious companies and the commitments that the We Mean Business Coalition made quite early were really foundational for moving this along. They have been early in taking action. They've had some of the first buyers clubs for buying net zero products. They've been very articulate on policy and the policy actions that are required to make this happen and on accountability on how you get science-based targets. The RMI has been doing a lot on industrial decarbonisation. They have a whole climate-aligned industries programme. They've been quite active in the US, in China, in India. Their Centre for Climate-aligned Finance has been important for what MPP is doing. We have support from a lot of other institutions as well, including the folks at Breakthrough Energy, the Bezos Earth Fund, Bloomberg and many others. The core to it was this coalition recognised that the time was now and if we put our resources together, if we created a coalition of coalitions, it would help accelerate and catalyze more projects more quickly. That's why the group came together. I also saw the Bezos Foundation and Bloomberg and I think the European Climate Foundation. It's really a massive network that you run here. Indeed, it's a broad network and again the role of MPP is to connect the dots, to link the pieces together, to connect all of the great innovations that's going on in different parts of each of these coalition partners and make the sum of the project 1 plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 5 and enables us to have substantially more impact by working together than if we each operated our own little silos. This problem is too big for anyone to take on and so we're trying to do that by making sure this coalition is coherent and acts in concert and really moves this forward at pace. From what I see, it's cross-sector, cross-country, cross basically everything. Cross sector, some of the things that we're finding are helpful are if you work across the seven sectors, there are things like these industrial clusters that come together in ways that no one individual sector or one individual company could lift, but across the seven sectors you can get it done. The same thing on a set of policy imperatives, things like each of these seven sectors depends heavily on clean hydrogen coming into the economy and yet that's probably not the number one goal for any one sector. But if you do the sum across, it ends up being quite important and so these seven sectors along with these set of coalition partners together can simplify some of these things for policymakers around the world and make some of these things happen more easily. Yeah, yeah. If we look at the status quo, we have after the power sector, heavy industries is the second largest source of CO2 emissions, accounting for 27% of all CO2 emissions worldwide. And your organization states on its side that the four materials basically steel, cement, aluminum and chemicals are responsible for 60% of current industry emissions. Where do you begin with your massive task? You frame it correctly, it's almost 30% of global emissions and it's growing and we'll talk about that in a moment. But we begin from a process standpoint, we're following a relatively straightforward process to get to action. We start with convening, we bring the most ambitious leaders in the industry together. We then move to developing these sector transition strategies, these roadmaps that are operationally relevant and actionable. We then move to commitments and most of the companies that we're involved in are making very bold commitments on decarbonization and following these roadmaps. And then we move to action. And what's fascinating is the time for action. And so in the future, we're going to start action. If you look at, we need to get to 2050 and we start moving from right to left. We actually have to start action now in order to have a shot at getting to 2050 on pace. The thing that is most striking about the market today is how business is leading from the demand side is pulling forward a set of these transitions and so this demand side unlock is key to acting quickly. The good news is there are some places in the world where the demand, the supply, the policy environment, infrastructure and finance can actually align today to move a set of these projects forward. And again, these are some of these industrial clusters and then again some ambitious companies are really out there with lighthouse projects now. And maybe you can talk a bit about the lighthouse projects. Can you give us an example of just for example, how do you decarbonize an entire shipping industry? Can you talk us through it a little? Yeah, so shipping is a great example. Shipping is hard. This is a very difficult to decarbonize a sector, but the industry has been in the lead for some time in working through this. We have the, as part of our coalition, we have the Global Maritime Forum as an active core leader in making this happen. And so they're ahead of the game. So what are the key parts of making this happen? They put together the Poseidon Principles a couple years ago, which was about how do we finance the transition. They put together the Clydebank Declaration for COP26, which defined a set of these green shipping corridors. So where do we start? We start with a set of point to point port to port places where we're going to decarbonize shipping. Interestingly, what is underlies that then is a set of demand signals, a set of shippers who in fact want to make sure that their product is carried across the oceans on net zero ships. And so we have a very strong demand signal from the set of the large shippers around the world. We are getting now to a point where we understand the supply side of the equation. How do we get net zero fuels? Things like ammonia, things like methanol, how do we make net zero ships work? The good news again is we've known that this can work in Europe for some time. And so now we're beginning to think through how we apply that on the high seas. And then we go to things like the policy environment and the International Maritime Organization, IMO, has been quite thoughtful about how you set regulations for ships around the world and their safety principles matter and their carbon intensity principles matter as well. And then we're going to have to figure out the supply chain and how do we get more net zero ships on the ocean as quickly as possible. And that's a building a set of ships and retrofitting a set of ships is going to take some time, but we actually know how to do it even today. And you were mentioning it's a big industry. How willing is the industry overall? The industry is very committed to this idea of net zero and getting to 2050. And they've, again, they've been working it as an industry group for a good period of time. They have a good alignment with a global regulator in the IMO. They have a set of good technology innovations going on. So the industry has been quite committed to this. And again, the shippers who use, who work with this industry, who move product around the world are very committed to this. And if you can get a committed industry and a committed demand side, that usually moves you a long way forward to make these industries work. Yeah, yeah. Coming back to the seven sectors transitions, what are the, what are the goals for each of the sectors? So the goal, the core goal net zero by 2050, we put together a set of sector transition strategies that lead us to 2050 on a step by step pathway. Where do you need to be by 2025? Where do you need by 2030? How do you get to 2050? What does that look like? And the industry is endorsing those transition strategies. We'd like to be in places where, you know, we're getting 50% down by 2030 and many of these industries getting to 20% down by 2030 is going to be a real effort. And I think we are going to get there. But the key is now we've begun to define it into a set of operational priorities. So how many plants need to be built by what point in time? What does that mean in terms of, you know, getting those plants started because there's a long lead time to making a set of these happen. And by breaking it down into these blocks and by making it operationally relevant, all of a sudden now, organizations can get to work, the most ambitious companies can get to work. And when everybody sees what the transition pathway looks like, it makes it much easier to drive capital formation. And I think that's the measure, the marker, the so called GFAN, the global financial system coming together for net zero is committed 4.16 trillion dollars to funding this kind of transition. Our task is to make sure that they know how much capital is needed, where and when. And that I think is the process that we're on right now. Yeah, can I just go in there? And how do you know where the capital is needed most? Well, we know how many plants are needed and is the sort of the first marker of that. So we know how much capital we need in each block and again, working with the financial providers so that we have a shared view of what that looks like is part of what the Mission Possible Partnership is about just to create that kind of transparency in the system. So I think that's kind of the first block of it. You know, and then what's what's fascinating is to begin to look for places where this can work. There's a one of the green corridors for shipping, if we just take that as an example that the shipping world has defined as the Shanghai to Los Angeles corridor. And so we have a set of highly concentrated demand of shippers who want to make sure that they have net zero shipping. You have a great port in Shanghai, a great port in Los Angeles. And the question now is how do I put the infrastructure and both ends of that in order to make that work. And so that's hard infrastructure. How do I create a green ammonia in a place like Los Angeles and really make that a successful place to dock. Some of it can be things like soft infrastructure. So there are conversations around can we get a net zero births in harbors, because a birthing slot is among the most valuable places in the world. And so we create the capacity to make that a really easy transit to make for a green ship, much as we've done with, you know, EV lanes on roads, right. Can we do the same thing with soft infrastructure in shipping. And so you combine a set of physical infrastructure that delivers fuels, soft infrastructure that enables the speed of change. And then, you know, a set of the committed shippers and committed chip owners. You can decarbonize something like that in a very finite period of time. Yeah, because you mentioned Shanghai and Los Angeles. Is it an obstacle that we talk about the US and China or is it absolutely cross country here? It has to be a global story. Because in fact, all of these industries that we're talking about in different ways are quite global in scope. And so we're not going to achieve net zero by 2050. We're not going to achieve, you know, 20% down even by 2030, unless we have a real global commitment to make this happen. And again, I think coming out of out of cop there's that clear global commitment. But it's going to occur in specific places, right. This isn't some at this point in time. This is not some global macro piece. It's about how do we get the Port of Shanghai and the Port of L. How do we get the Port of Fugiera in the Middle East to decarbonize because a lot of the ships from Asia to Europe end up going through that, you know, that location. How do we get the Port of Rio and the Port of Rotterdam to decarbonize? It's going to be in places where the world is going to make that kind of shift. Yeah, yeah. So how do you generate commitments then for net zero? Do your partners need proof for the zero carbon value chains that it works or do they know already? So, you know, the good news is we have some 400 partner companies already involved in the Mission Possible partnership. And that continues to grow in terms of companies that are committed to net zero and are committed to figuring out how to make this work. Part of it is about confidence. And it starts with ambition and you have a set of CEOs who are quite ambitious and who are committed to the targets. Part of it's about confidence and building confidence in their teams that there really is a operationally relevant sector transition strategy that everybody can look at and understand and figure out and the, you know, the bankers can look at it and the engineers can look at it and stack hands and say, yeah, we can actually get that done. And then part of it's about making sure that there is a focus on all of the, we can pull all the different elements to make this work. We can talk about it some more in a minute, but, you know, you need to get new plants up. You need to improve energy efficiency. You need to get the policymakers and the infrastructure aligned. So it's about getting the whole alignment end to end to make this work. And again, if everybody has the same sort of roadmap and transition strategy to make this happen, then I think that's the way to get that alignment moving quickly. Yeah, it's your experience that when you talk about your 400 partners, that the leaders in the sectors are more able, more willing than, let's say, a small or midsize company? I wouldn't say it's driven by size. I think it's been the first instance it's driven by ambition of the leaders. And so we have large companies and midsize companies, we have small companies involved. And that indeed in some ways it's the mix of companies because they come at it from different angles and they have different kinds of questions. And the mix in creates that richness and in some ways it creates the speed of change because a smaller company may say we can make that shift more quickly. And that ends up being a really rich part of the dialogue. So it is led by the most ambitious. And that doesn't mean everybody's there yet. But it does mean that there is a big enough block of the demand of the supply side and of the demand side that are very ambitious that we can get moving today. Yeah. So now we have the net zero by 2050, which is a massively ambitious target. And at the same time we live in a world where demand is only about to increase. And of course, with the emissions, can you take us through your strategy because you obviously keep it in mind? How do you handle that? Yeah. So each of the sector transition strategies addresses demand up front and squarely because if you look across these industrial sectors, these sectors are very important to global economic growth and to resilience. As we look forward, we depend on these sectors to be successful economically and from resilience standpoint. So we need to really understand the growth side of the equation. Growth is central to the mapping. Interestingly, part of it obviously is about feeding growth with net zero fuels, for example, and how do we make growth net zero? That's kind of the first thing we can do across sectors. It's the first thing, interestingly, that the power sector did is it made growth net zero. You know, we're in the same bucket of, you know, let's start by making growth net zero and that's, that is part of levelizing things out. Then let's figure out how to get a lot more of the clean fuels into the system in many of these or clean feedstocks into the system to make that work. And that's, you know, things like hydrogen, it's things like biofuels as we work through the assessment, things like renewable energy from any of these sectors. And so we have to make that transition as well. And then we actually do have to think about efficiency, even in things like cement as a core part of concrete. And yet the blending rates vary dramatically around the world. And in many places we use too much cement in our concrete that's not necessary in order to make sure it's safe. And so making sure that we have the right kinds of efficiency measures in each of these different sectors is also an important part of this. One of the things in aviation are assumptions about how much efficiency can be introduced into the airplane fleet as we move through time. And so energy efficiency and efficiency in blending really does matter as we look forward if we hope to meet any of these goals in a market that is growing over time. Yeah, yeah, because you mentioned concrete early on. During my research, I saw that concrete is the second most used material on Earth. That is, I mean, to turn that into net zero is, yeah, you have not an easy task. Not an easy task. It's not an easy task. Again, the Global Concrete and Cement Association has been a core partner in making this happen. They are deeply engaged in what the process is for decarbonization. They operate in every country in the world. This is a technology that in some ways was invented by the Romans and have been perfected over time. It's very remarkably inexpensive, a core part of both growth and resilience in many economies. And so it's a key element. You can't move it very far. It's very heavy. So how do we make decarbonization happen in every place around the world is a core part of their task and they're working great at making that happen. Yeah, yeah. My next question is more a question for the business community who actually hopefully listens to it and thinks, well, yeah, but what does it mean for me, for example, if we go back to the seven sectors and I just repeat them again, aluminium, chemicals, concrete, steel, the aviation industry, shipping and trucking. What steps are required until 2030 and 2050 to net zero? And maybe you can use an example or two. So maybe we'll take a couple examples. Let's do aviation because that's one that people, businesses all around the world get to deal with as passengers and the industry is very committed to driving to net zero. So what does aviation require? It requires things that one of the great things about aviation is for many of the applications we have, we can actually blend down the carbon intensity of jet fuel over time. And so we can follow a stepwise path of decarbonization that works well and we have a competition across biofuels, so called HEPA. We have alcohol to jet, so how do you turn things like ethanol into jet fuel? We have now a whole set of things, so called power to jet or power to liquids, which is about how do I turn hydrogen into jet fuel. And you have competition from pure hydrogen players and pure electric players in the industry. And so the competition among the different decarbonization pathways and which kinds of routes are amenable to which kinds of solutions is one of those things that allows decarbonization to happen more quickly. We also know that we can make the carbon intensity of jet fuel just as it's made in refineries substantially lower in its emissions. And so how do we add that into the mix? But the ability to begin to drive down from something today that looks like 90 grams of CO2 per megajoule of jet fuel down to 80 to 70, down to 50. And how do we make that process work is what the task is at hand. One of the great things in the aviation sector is that the demand signals are very strong. They're a set of large passenger groups that's called in big companies that move their people around the world who are very committed to net zero and as part of the first movers coalition and other things have made commitments to buying airplane tickets that are that are net zero. And how do we link that then to the fuel demand ends up being part of the equation. The good news again, the airlines are already buying, they're already flying with net zero jet fuel. And I think what we're seeing now is how do you scale that industry over time? How do you get the infrastructure in place? How do you make sure the policies in place? Because what we need by 2030 are 300 to 400 net zero jet fuel plants in the world. And we need to get that to essentially 100% of the industry by 2050. So we've got a ways to go, but we actually know how to get there. We know the pieces to get from here to there. Yeah, yeah. It's really, yeah, it's fantastic to when one dives into that whole subject, how fast the industries move on after they have decided that they want to move on. Yeah, and I've been recently at the ESG global, where we talked about it's a multi trillion dollar industry. And still you have so many companies who hear that for the first time. Do you have the same experience that you that you find leaders we think they are not anywhere near? There are the number of leaders who are not near is growing smaller by the day. And I think the both because as you know as we look at, you know, things coming out of cop there is such strong business leadership and business commitment I do think it's important to recognize how much business is leading the way part of the equation here is business is leading and then governments are following with the policies that are necessary to make that happen and that that kind of what I think that we mean business folks call an ambition cycle is turning out to be very powerful in this in this arena. Certainly there are there are some folks who either can't or don't want to make this transition. But the rate of change and the scale of change is very high and it's amazing what happens when the demand side of the equation says this is what I want you to do. The change happens relatively quickly. I mean, I, you know, what are the ones that was interesting instructive for me was to look at the amount of investment in trucking in renewable diesel fuel in the United States as a simple example. A couple of years has been in the in the double digit billions now over 10 billion has been committed and then it's been committed in part because the big shippers the companies that use trucks said we need to see a renewable diesel in the market and it started in California and now it's been then it's spread to the California plus 10 and now it's spreading beyond that and and so when the demand side says this is what we want you to do on the supply side again whether it's a service or supply like like trucking or whether it's a fuel supply all of a sudden you know things happen relatively quickly and and that's why again this demand side signal is so important in the market. Yeah, coming from America it always sounds so simple. It sounds like hey let's make it happen and then we make it happen. Still, are there any major obstacles and barriers to change you see when you have your multi stakeholder approach. Let's say it's corporations government civil society. Is there, I don't know for example a knowledge barrier or mindset problem. Do you see any of that. I think we've moved in most cases beyond mindset. We're trying in many ways to bridge the knowledge gap and create great transparency and visibility into the kind of transitions that are that are underway and and how to make that happen. I think we're now into the obstacles that are, let's call it operational obstacles. We have supply chain issues we have there are more orders for electric trucks right now than the truck manufacturers can produce. And so, you know how do we make that kind of supply chain work in the right way there's more demand for net zero airplane seats and there is net zero fuel in the market today right so we have a supply chain question that we have to drive. There are a set of policy issues. Interestingly, again, the most some of the most boring and basic things like citing and permitting. We need to be able to cite and permit plants much more quickly. If we want to meet the kind of growth rate and again and things like aviation fuels in order to make that work and you know sometimes again it's it's, you know, basic infrastructure. You know, like, you know how do we make sure that there's enough, you know, hydrogen or CO2 pipelines around those kinds of things are the barriers that are most pronounced right now. They're going to be others as we go through this, but in terms of getting started it's it's some of the really basic things that we need to make sure are in place in order to, in order to move this at an appropriate pace over time. Let's come to a to a more broader section where we talk about how to rethink and reframe business models. But before it's very important that we know where you come from and to see what's what's possible so you basically have spent 35 years serving energy clients around the world. You were establishing strategic priorities to win in the energy transition, shaping capital investments, defining policy approaches, driving operational improvement programs and building capabilities to accelerate growth. You also served as a senior advisor to the US Secretary, US Secretary of Energy and I think that was during the Obama years and work for McKinsey so you have really a huge amount of experience. So looking broader at business models we do have to move on altogether. So how do we rethink and reframe them. So I had the privilege of serving clients in 35 different countries around the world. I had again the privilege of serving the US government, serving power companies and oil companies and technology companies in the energy sector and and what's fascinating as you look across that that suite or things like, you know, if you just take as a simple model like business models. The ability of companies to make transitions to pivot in a new direction can actually be quite high. I mean, you know, if you wanted the most recent example, the, you know, the pandemic highlighted just how nimble companies can be to move from, you know, in the office to working from home in a very short period of time to move from in person to digital kinds of sales processes. Just to, you know, the ability to make that kind of change that quickly is a core part of the of what great leaders do in in great companies and I think we have many more great examples in that transition over the last couple years. And so we're looking for that same kind of leadership here and we're seeing that same kind of leadership here and that's the that's a good part. So what does it take it takes really understanding what the opportunity is in the marketplace. And again this goes back to understanding if my customer wants me to do something different I'm going to figure out how to do that pretty pretty quickly because these companies have great engineers, they have great marketing people they have great finance people. And so we have the ability now to say, Okay, here is where the market is going. Take the jet fuel example we know now what kind of carbon intensity of jet fuel, I need to match for every, you know, every five years as we go between now and 2050. How do I as a as a company as a supplier as a buyer, you know, as a passenger how do I adjust in order to meet that kind of pathway because once I know what the roadmap is. Now it's a, again, it's a process of operations to make that happen. So that's that the first block is it's about agility and companies are great at doing that. The second block is this is about, we are making a move towards a block of capital formation. And again the opportunity is the companies that are out front and making some of those changes happen, are right now experiencing advantage from doing that and once companies begin to make sure that they're their source of advantages, the capital and the business model follows I think relatively, relatively quickly. Yeah, the good news is the technology is there to make a lot of this happen we still need some more technology innovations in some places, but we have lots, we can have all the technology we need to get between now and 2030 and we are at the rate of innovation and technology is super fast right so I have no no question that we'll have all the technologies we need to get to 2050. So, you know, again, there are relatively few barriers once I get the right market signals in place. We are also in the middle of a systemic change because if we think back and my, my conversation with Klaus Schwab, the founder of the World Economic Forum, he basically talked about that Milton Friedman said in its in a in the 70s, that the business of business is business. And this kind of mantra took us basically up until probably the global financial crisis and a little longer. If you look at that mantra now, where do you think we are right now. Well, I think we are now understanding that things like greenhouse gas emissions or particulate emissions are, you know, a part of any business equation businesses have, you know, go all the way back, you know, businesses having a lot of, you know, polluting is not exactly been a profitable enterprise for a long time. It's for the short time you can take advantage of the tragedy of the Commons but you know, for the long period, there's a real recognition that that doesn't actually work as a as a core business model and if we look forward here, you know, there is a great understanding of how do I integrate, you know, carbon intensity, how do I integrate carbon emissions and put a price on on carbon in my core operations. One of the challenges, you know, as you were describing with with businesses is, once I understand it, what the, what the challenge is I then can operationally make the shift and I think we now have most companies in the process of having made the shift in terms of really understanding the role that carbon emissions play in the business world and in business models, and they now have the tools to actually make that part of their day to day operations. And when that happens, you know, a whole lot of things are are possible. You know, I think, look, the other big push by the way in this whole arena is, is what your investors are saying right we talked a lot about the demand side. If your investors say we need you to decarbonize more quickly. That's a pretty good signal to take action and you know we're seeing that in spades. Yeah, yeah. And talking about investors. What do you think is has Larry Fink's letter to the CEOs what kind of an impact was that that we want now stakeholder capitalism and is she is the note, then the new gold standard. Did that help a bit. Larry Fink's letter was important in my, in my former world one of the things that effectively. Larry's letter said was, you know, we're, we're going to start by only investing we can't divest. These are these companies are too important for global growth, but we're only going to invest in the top half of any given sector. What are the great parts in my former world was the number of phone calls we got from multiple sectors was so where's half my top half from the bottom half right now. And so it was a great. And so again this goes back to what are companies know and what are companies understand is like, well so I need to know where I am I'm in the top half from the bottom. And so when people figure that out then it's like so what does it take to me to get from the, you know, from the bottom half into the top half. And now we have a race, and the race is terrific, because in multiple sectors, once you get a race going on between with the folks in the bottom half trying to get into the top half you know what happens, the mean, the halfway point gets better and better and better. And that's what we're in the middle of right now is, is that race to see who can actually get better fast enough to keep ahead of what the investors want. And it does allow us then to focus on, you know, how do we accelerate. There are a set of companies in each of these sectors that are doing great things. How do we double down on some of those, even as we encourage a set of, you know, Brown to greener transitions from folks who were not as well positioned, but who are now in a real hurry to catch up. And that kind of competitive dynamic is enormously powerful and driving decarbonization. Yeah, yeah. How important is collaboration in the whole transition. Yeah, collaboration is key. Collaboration is key on. We just talked about how competition is really important. Collaboration is also important. And interestingly, it's things like collaboration along the value chain. So how do I make sure that a green steel plant, for example, has enough hydrogen feedstock and enough offtake into the auto sector in order to make the end to end economics work right that kind of value chain collaboration ends up being quite, quite important. And so, and I think we can see that across these, you know, how do we get the passengers who want net zero seats to work with the airlines, because the airlines are then working with the sustainable aviation fuel providers that you know how do we get the shippers who want net zero trucks to work with the trucking firms to work with the fuel suppliers and then frankly to work with some of the truck manufacturers to make sure that the supply chain comes together quickly enough, because that's that's the you know, getting that that collaboration ends up being quite a challenge and but if we can get that value chain to work and step together into the into the next level of decarbonization. Boy, the results can happen quite quickly. Yeah, yeah. And how quick would an organization like yours be able to to put them together on a table let's say you have a new aim and you want to quickly bring together a big shipping contractor and the bank and this and that. How fast can you bring them together. The good news is they're coming together now. And they're going to come together at two different levels. One level of collaboration is going to be very, very local. We're going to go to a set of places, you know, these so called industrial clusters, there's a set of places in the world where these value chains need to come together and it's not something that's mega galactic it's something that's, you know, height very very local it's you know we get how do I decarbonize the port of Los Angeles how do I decarbonize the port of Houston or, or the Port of Chicago right how do I make those places work. And that kind of collaboration is a very local event there's a few players who have to come together. There's a few fuel suppliers, a few shippers, you know a few banks, and some local policymakers that can come together to make that happen. Then there's a set of collaboration that needs to happen at a higher level so that we get consistent blend standards for airplanes and that airplanes that leave one place and come to another place. And you know we have common standards that make that work and that's getting policymakers together again with industry players together with some of the technology players to make sure that all and of course the finance people and make sure that all the pieces come together at the top level to create the architecture and at the local level and so we're going to be working at both of those levels in order to make this happen. Yeah, can I ask you how do you finance all this change when you bring them all together is that is that the major issue or does it come later. I find the answer is super important question and again the the the global financial alliance for net zero is doing a, you know, we're spending time with them to make sure that the roadmaps that we've put together a line with the roadmaps that they're putting together because we want to make sure that the dollars follow the decarbonization curves that need to take place and follow the plants that need to get built to make that make that happen. What we're spending time doing and there are a couple of good efforts underway to basically figure out how do we model that end to end value chain. It was a good piece out recently that basically said we're talking about if I go to a net zero car, that is a physical car not what the fuel that runs on but net zero for the manufacturing. That's probably going to cost something like, you know, maybe a 5% increase in the cost of the car. How do I get and then I've got a hydrogen plant and I've got a steel plant. How do I make sure that all of the economics across that end up working. How does it work for the consumer, how does it work for the steel plant, how does it work for the hydrogen plant. Again, the good news is that with the right kind of place in the world where hydrogen is inexpensive, for example, and the right kind of policy environment where there's encouragement for, you know, things like hydrogen there's encouragement for net zero cars, or net zero steel. All of a sudden, you can make those economics close in key places today. And what we're trying to do is let's let's find a set of places where it works today, and let's make those scale those up. And then there are going to be a whole another set of places that will quickly follow on and making that happen but try getting the bankers and the finance providers as part of these value chain collaborations is an essential part of being successful here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coming from finance to policy makers to governments. What is their role in it and and do they need to step up, perhaps. The governments have a critical role to play again business has been leading in important ways government started leading now businesses leading is a good ambition cycle to make that make that work. Governments can be important are important in two or three ways one or just the very as we talked earlier the basic operational ways, citing and permitting, making sure that new projects can get built, because if it takes us 10 years to site and permit a new plant or pass in the 50 doesn't work right that that's just quite clear and that ends up in many cases being a local kind of process. It's important for governments to be involved in creating a level playing field. There are incentives, for example, for diesel fuel and for jet fuel are different in different markets, and that leads to flows of resources going in different pathways that that can be distorting to markets and so how do governments create that kind of level playing field, you know, things like blend standards are ways to create consistency across that. So, creating clear incentives for markets that have some duration in time matters a two year incentive isn't very helpful a 10 year incentive is fully monetizable how do we make that work. So I think those are the kind of things that governments need to do. And the good part again about where we are today now is I think we have industry. In many cases aligned with what those kinds of government roles need to be. It isn't some, again, super complicated piece they're just a set of basic building blocks that governments can put in place that will make these projects happen more quickly, and then we'll get the right kind of a poll going through the marketplace. Yeah, yeah. Just before we come to our last question, because you mentioned standards, and we see already new standard boards being created and we have them in the US and we have them in Europe and probably in Asia. Is that helpful to have this different standard boards or should we have just one. Well, we need to get to a consistent set of standards again businesses operate really well and there's a consistent set of standards if they're inconsistent then it creates costs and complexity and it slows things down so in general we want to converge towards a common set of standards. And that helps a lot. And if we have, you know, if we understand where we're going on decarbonization, and there's a set of standards about what, you know, what does green steel really mean or what is net zero steel look like, you know what is what does low carbon cement look like low carbon concrete what does that look like. If we can get clear on that, then by the way, we all of a sudden allow buyers to make sound choices in the marketplace one of the most powerful groups today one of the most important companies in the market today are people like the chief procurement officers from many companies. And if we give them real standards by which to buy, they're very very good at understanding it let's call it a quality differential between two products. And so if we know and we can label, you know, every ton of steel and every ton of aluminum and every airplane flight with what its carbon intensity is. And so the procurement officers can make that kind of decision, because that's part of what they do every day, but without standards we're asking that you know they have a hard job, and we're asking them to make sort of standards choices that are in a very murky world so standards matter, getting consistency matters, and that will help accelerate good standards will help accelerate the development of these markets. Yeah, and you don't see a problem that they have different standard setting and creating more obstacles and in general I think what we're seeing in many places is competition and competition in general is a useful thing we're going to see things like SBTI are important right we need a sort of science and some science based targets to make that happen. But how we turn that in into labeling requirements for example, I think we're going to see multiple different lenses but I think we'll actually converge relatively quickly in terms of what that looks like if we end up with radically different standards around the world that's going to be a problem. But I think if we the competition among standards setters right now, I think we'll just help create more information in the marketplace and then we'll we can drive to convergence over the sort of the one magic standard I'm not I think competition will lead to a better result more quickly. The UN calls our time the great transformation, the world economic form called the great reset, and we have entered already the force industrial revolution. So from everything you were talking about today, do you think we have passed the time for incremental steps and are now left with one solution only basically a quantum leap. One of the, I wrote a book called Resource Revolution in 2014 and argued that this was the most interesting time in 100 years and I still believe that that's true because the rate of change is so fast. And, but on the other hand that gives me great confidence that we're actually not sort of depending on magic we're not depending on a quantum leap. We actually know how to get to net zero on a step by step basis starting right now. And that I think should give us great confidence this isn't about again magic in 2040. This is about reality today and following a very clear step by step we got to hustle we got to work fast we have to do it at pace. But we actually know the steps to get from here to there. We do in fact hope for and we are looking forward to a set of quantum breakthroughs, because that will help accelerate and make sure that we don't miss the at the end. But between now and 2030, it's just hard work it's just step by step. And when we get into that next period, then hopefully we get things like fusion hopefully we get, which by the way has gone from a 20 year project to a, maybe it's a 10 year project now and tribute to the innovators who've been driving that kind of change. We're seeing great innovations that could, in fact, make it easier to get to 2050. But we can get there right now with hard work and I think that's what should give everyone a great degree of confidence that now is the time to take action, and we can we know how to get there step by step. Well, listening to you gives me great confidence that we can do it. But what happens if we are not doing it, if we fail. Well, I think I start with a view that we won't fail. The global economy knows how to do this kind of work. It's not rocket science to use the old expression. It's just hard work and we have we know how to do hard work. We know the ability of businesses to pivot and make this happen we should have great confidence in it. So I start with, you know, we won't fail. Look, there's a set of things that we need to do on resilience to we need to make the global economy more resilient against the state of climate change that we're already seeing right and we need to make these storms and floods fires and where I live, end up being quite profound even today and we need to make investments in order to protect ourselves against those kind of protect the economy against those kind of situations so investing and resilience is a necessary element of where we stand even even today. But the time is now to make a set of investments on the path to net zero. We know how to get to 2050. We know what we have to do by 2030 and so, you know, I think if we make investments in resilience, and we hustle up and really get to pace on the decarbonization. The global economy will be in very good shape as we as we move forward. Well, that sounds really fantastic. And I'm really, really grateful that you found the time to talk to us. It was there were many, many insights and yeah, it was an absolutely fantastic interview. Thank you very much, Matt. Watchers to San Francisco and yeah, and good luck and lots of energy for you. Thank you very much. Thank you for the time today. You've been listening to a special English edition of the Gorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabilla Baden, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer. For more information, please visit www.zabillabaden.com and the official site of the World Economic Forum. .