Matt Walsh Responds to Demands to Disavow His Allies, and How to Resolve the Right-Wing Civil War

Let me commend you on your type rope walking skills. I don't check into social media that much, but whenever I do, I'm like, Matt Walsh is an amazing man. Glad you feel that way anyway. No, I mean, I, there's a lot, the reason I want to talk to you is there's a lot that I admire about how you've handled this just as a man. Leaving aside our opinions, which I don't even know if they are probably different in some ways, same in other ways, but it's not even about that. I, you know, everybody involved personally, or most of them involved in all these dramas on the right. And I think the way that you've handled it is just so impressive. So thank you for that. But first, like, what is going on? There is a civil war, probably not too strong on the right within the Trump coalition. What is it? Yeah, I mean, this has been, it's been a really awful, I think, I think for everybody. And a lot of this drama obviously goes back, goes back a long way. But I think after Charlie was killed, it's created this kind of this vacuum. And it's a, it's a leadership vacuum because Charlie was, was I think the best leader we had on the right. And the tragic reality is that a lot of the stuff that, that we said right after he was killed, turned out not to be true stuff that even I said, like, well, you, you killed Charlie, but you made a, you made a million more, right? You killed one Charlie, but now we have a million more Charlies. And I think, I think we said that because it, we wanted that to be true. And it kind of felt for a brief amount of time, it felt that way, because it felt like everybody was sort of unified. And we were coming together and going to the memorial and everybody was there. And, and it felt like almost this revival, even this religious revival, and all these things. But then I think quickly reality sets in. And what we have realized, and what we've seen is that you killed Charlie and now Charlie's gone. And when you, that's the thing, when you kill someone, they're, they're gone, at least in this life. And so we, no, we didn't go from one Charlie to a million Charlies, we went from one Charlie to zero Charlies. And that's just, that's what happens with that. That's why assassinations happen. That's why people do them because they work because it works. Yeah, because they work. And that's, that's been the greatest tragedy about all this. I mean, aside from the human tragedy that an actual human being lost their, lost his life. And his wife doesn't have a husband, his kids don't have a father. I mean, that's, that's the great tragedy, the human tragedy. But on a kind of national scale, the tragedy is that the, the strategy of assassination has been proven effective again, as it has all throughout human history. And so now this guy who was this, I think to an extent that none of us fully realized was the glue that was holding everything together on the right, holding this whole crazy coalition together, it turns out it was like one guy who was doing this and his organization, which, which is still around, who had a lot of respect for TPSA. And I think they're doing the absolute best they can in the face of this. I mean, I have no, I can't even imagine being in the spot that they're in. But he was the leader of the organization, he was a leader of the conservative movement, he was the glue. And now he's gone. And it kind of feels like everything's coming undone, to be honest with you. And there's this, so there's all the, there's all the fighting that goes, that's, that's going on. And for me personally, and I don't, I don't like to, I don't get into this because first of all, I don't like talking about myself. I like, I like to talk about the things that I think, I talk about my ideas about things all the time. But I don't like talking about myself. Good. I like people who don't like talking about themselves. But with that said, I hope you'll talk about yourself. Well, and also, I don't want to, like, I'm not the victim of any of this at all. But I can only speak from my own experiences. And so my experience is that I'm a, consider myself a personal friend of many of the people on either side of all of these various disputes, including a friend of yours. And so that, that's a, that's a very complicated position to be in. And then what, what ends up, what does it happen? Yes. Yes. And there's, so there's people on either side, and it's really not even two sides. It's, I don't know how many it's a fractured to a million pieces, it feels like. And so you've got the people on all the different sides of the different disputes who are shouting at me that, well, I need to denounce so and so I need to disavow this person, I need to come out and say, you know, that I not just, I just, that I disagree because it's one that we've had disagreements. But the pressure is beyond it. The pressure is, no, they'll just disagree, but disavowed denounce that condemn. And my answer has been, and not everybody respects it, you don't have to respect it. But my answers, no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to denounce a friend. I'm not ever, I'm not ever going to do it, like ever. Because to me, loyalty is a principle. Loyalty is a, so when people say, well, you need to stand on your principles and come out and say this or that, well, loyalty is a principle, in my mind. It's one of the most important principles for any person, for a man especially. And I think that, you know, people, if you're not, if you're not in the middle of it, and you're kind of on the outside, there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that you don't know about. And so when I say that somebody is a friend, and I feel personal loyalty to them, that doesn't just mean that, oh, I kind of like that person. But for me anyway, what that means is this is someone who I know personally, who I can call on the phone, who I can share a meal with, I've shared a meal with. And very often, this is someone who has had my back and supported me in ways that you might not see, not like they've paid me off, but just in a friend way, like I've got your back, I'm going to support you, I'll defend you, hey, everyone's attacking you for this or that reason, and I got your back, right. And so there are a lot of people who've done that for me. And once you do that for me, then I feel like duty bound that I cannot turn around, I will not turn around, and stab you in the back or condemn you, like you have my back, I'll have yours. That's the idea. Okay, that's the principle you said. You said it's more than an idea, it's more than an emotional response, it's a principle, and you said it's especially important for men. And I just agree with you so strongly when you say that, but I haven't taken the time to think through why it's so important to me. Can you explain why that's a principle and why it's especially important for men? Well, I think it's about, I think it's about, I think it's about integrity. It's a matter of personal integrity. It's also a matter of having a spine. I mean, if you denounce someone because, especially again, a friend, because you've got a million people screaming in your face and telling you to do it, well, how can that possibly be a principled stand? You're doing it to get people to stop yelling at you. Right, exactly. That's why you're doing it. And actually, even if they're not your friend, if people are yelling at you, if you do anything because people are yelling at you to do it, then that's the wrong, it's the wrong reason to do something. Yes. It's the wrong reason even to do the right thing on it, really. But with a friend, it's the wrong thing. There's also just this basic principle of doing to others as you would have them doing to you. And there's something uniquely repulsive about betrayal. And that's what that is. That's why quisling got executed. That's why Judas is reviled, betrayal, someone that you're responsible for or are in a real relationship with and then you whip around and undercut the person. That's worse than like an invading army kind of, it feels that way to me. And I think that's something we all kind of instinctively understand, which is why everyone has such a low opinion of traders. Yes. Traders are are below dirt in terms of how we rank them. Now, disagreement, on the other hand, is not betrayal. And you can obviously disagree with someone who's a friend. And if you have a friend who demands that you never disagree with them, well, that's not really a friend. And the relationship you have with them is one of, it's not a friend relationship. It's a master slave relationship. Right. It's a subservient relationship. Exactly. And as men, we should not be in those kinds of relationships either. So you'd certainly disagree with someone. And so I'm not talking about that. And that's important, because even what I'm saying right now, I know that Twitter is going to have fun with it. And they're going to say, Oh, as you're saying, you can never disagree with a friend. Of course, you can disagree with a friend. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about what I have personally experienced. Like if I look at my mentions or email or even people I talk to, of saying denounce, condemn, disavow. Okay, that that is the that is very specifically that's what I've heard. And that is the thing that I cannot ever do. And maybe I have a more extreme view of that than most people. I mean, no, you don't have the most basic human view like what world are we in? Well, because someone someone asked me once they said, we're talking about this and they said, okay, what if someone you're really close with your brother? What if he'd murder someone? What if he becomes an axe murderer? Well, then you would disavow him and condemn him, wouldn't you? No, I get him a fake passport. Well, I mean, he's my brother. Yeah, I if my brother was a serial killer and had 40 bodies in his basement, I would not get on camera and disavow or condemn him. I would not do it. Now, who are you saying this to? Someone actually asked you that question? Yes. 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But just like because their point is like, yeah, the point they're trying to make, I understand, the point is that, yeah, you're loyal to people, but it's to a point and there's, it could get to a point where it's so something happens that's so extreme or they've done something that's so extremely wrong that it should, it changes your calculation. And my point is that for me, it doesn't. Now that doesn't mean that so if my brother, going back to my brother being a serial killer, which by the way, he's not just to be clear. But if you were, I wouldn't defend, I wouldn't get on camera and say, actually, it's okay to be a serial killer. And in that case, I mean, you, you know, I can understand the temptation to get him a passport, get him out of town, but I would turn him in because I think that that's justice and also it's best for him and his soul that he, that he faced. Yeah, you're probably, he faced the consequence. But it wouldn't be easy to do. But even in the midst of all that, I would not, I wouldn't get up in public and say, I condemn and disavow. It's got the way that I, you know, what happens on Twitter or on social media in general now, when people are, when they, when they, when, when someone does something that upsets everyone, it's like the old, it's like the mid ages where your, your head is in the stocks, right in the town square and everyone's coming back by and throwing tomatoes at you. And, and I've had my head in the stocks many times with the Twitter mob, I've been in that spot. And probably in times when I've deserved it, because I've said something that really is just stupid. And so everyone is just flinging crap at me and so, okay, been there. But my point is that if it's my friend who's got their head in the stock, even if they kind of deserve it, because they said something stupid or they're doing something stupid, there's no scenario ever where I'm going to pick up a tomato and throw it at them. I'm not going to do that. Now, I might, I might speak to them privately and say, Hey, you know what, you kind of had this coming. Because, you know, you need to, you need to get, you need to get it together. You need to get it in line, because what you did was wrong. I'll speak to someone privately and tell them that. And I have done that. If I disagree with a friend, and what they're doing, I will tell them that. So that's the basic principle. But again, that's not, that is all different from disagreement and saying I disagree with this person. Of course, this is intuitively obvious, I think to normal people. What I'm so struck by is how this doesn't just remind me of like medieval Europe, it reminds me of 2023. This is why Trump got elected when we say woke or, you know, the crazy left. This is exactly, at least speaking for myself, what I'm talking about, first of all, it's identity politics, it's censorship, the two things I hate in our country. But it's the same impulse to publicly denounce people, to destroy people. And, and really what you're saying when you demand that is, it's not just a breach of loyalty, it's a transfer of loyalty. You're saying you need to be more loyal to me in my ideas or the mob than you are to your own friends. It's like demanding control of your loyalty. In my view, it's always been I'm an adult man. I'll decide who I like and who I don't. That's up to me. You're trying to strip me of my autonomy, of my humanity, like no thanks. And that's why I got to the point where after many years of disagreeing with the left, I really hated the left, because I find that so totalitarian and scary. I just can't even believe that less than a year later, the right is doing the same thing like what is going on? Yeah, and that, and going back to the the the great tragedy, the many tragedies that have grown from the one great tragedy of Charlie's death. It is, it is that it is that we have like the left, I still believe I'm old fashioned, so call me old fashioned, but I still believe that the left that leftism, leftism as an ideology is the enemy. It is, it is the it is the problem. It's the thing that we're fighting against. It's the thing that I've always fought against. It's why I'm, it's why I'm doing any of this. It's the only reason I'm on camera right now. The only reason that I'm doing any of this, the only reason I got into this, whatever it is that we're doing, whatever this business is, this this fight, it's the reason I'm in it, is to oppose leftism. What is, how do you define leftism? Well, I would define it, modern leftism is, first of all, moral relativism. It's the idea that I have my own truth. You know, there is no, there is no truth. There's no, there's no truth. I have my own. And so I think to me, that's, that's the core of the thing. And I think that if you're a relativist, then you are a leftist. It doesn't matter what else you believe. You could be, you could be a relativist and be anti-immigration. You could be a relativist and believe in gun rights. Now, I think most relativists don't end up there, but even if you did, you're still a leftist because you reject truth. So that's what it is at, at, at its core. And also, leftism, not really also, but as an, as an extension of that, it's an outgrowth of that. Leftism opposes civilization and it opposes Western civilization in particular and American identity, most particularly of all. It opposes all of the institutions that our civilization depends on and is, is grounded in, like the institution of the family and the institution of marriage. It rejects all of that. It rejects the fundamental truths that we depend on. It rejects the fundamental reality, like the reality of, well, men aren't women. And they're kind of, I think a lot of leftists are trying to in a very, really embarrassed kind of way back, back away from that one because we beat them on it. You know, it's a thing when, when we as conservatives can actually put all this bullshit to the side and focus on something, we can win and we beat the, it's not, it's not totally dead, but the trans agenda is on life support and we defeated it. We took it down. We beat it. We can do that. And it's a good thing that we did because that was, and is wicked and evil that's hurting people and killing people. Couldn't agree more. But they also, they reject the reality of, of human life. The fact that, that, that human life is, has inherent worth and dignity from the moments, the moment of its existence, from the moment of its conception, that your life is not, the value of your life is not contingent. That's another fundamental aspect of leftism. They believe that human life, the value of human life is contingent. It's contingent for babies on whether or not their mother wants them. It's contingent on how much of an inconvenience they cause to their parents. And if it turns out that their mom doesn't want them and their parents find them inconvenient, their life has no value. Their life is less than garbage and can, and can be killed and thrown into a dumpster. And that's what is still happening in this country. You know, every single day, that's still happening. Hundreds of thousands every year, hundreds of thousands of human children are poisoned, stabbed in the heart with poison needles, dismembered, decapitated, and thrown into medical waste dumpsters. They don't even get a burial because they are treated as less than, or recycled into vaccines. Yes. They are treated as less, having less value than a dog. They have less value than, than an animal. I mean, there are, there are, there are animals who are, who are from conception federally protected, like sea turtles and bald eagles. And human children have less protection than that. So, and I know you know all this, I'm preaching to the choir. My point is that- But I love it. It can't be said too much. Right. My point is that, so that's happening. That is, to me, that's the enemy. That is what we're opposing. And if you're in favor of that, if you're, if you're among the forces that are pushing this, the destruction of the family, the destruction of human life in the womb, the rejection of reality, of objective truth, of national, of American identity, of Western civilization, if you're pushing that, then you're my enemy. You are my enemy and I want to destroy your, I want to destroy your ideology. I want to destroy everything you stand for. That's what I want to do. And if you're against, but if you're against them, and that is to say you stand for American identity and for the sanctity of human life and the family and, and objective truth and reality, the church, faith, if you're, if you're on that side, then I, then I consider you to be basically an ally and, and, and we could disagree vehemently on a lot of other issues. We could disagree on, we could, there could be a lot of disagreement if we agree that, okay, we need to preserve all as conservatives. What are we conserving? Well, to me, it's easy. We're conserving Western civilization. We're conserving American identity. We're conserving the sanctity of human life. We're conserving the family. We're conserving marriage. That's what we're conserving. And if you agree with me on that, then we're on the same side as far as I'm concerned. Now, we might have a lot of disagreements about how to conserve those things. And those, those disagreements might be even brutal and bitter at times. But if that is the argument, then we're all on the same side arguing. If we're arguing about whether those things should be conserved, well, then if you're on the other side of that argument, then we're not on the same side at all. We're, we're, we're in two different universes. Like, I don't even know what universe you're living in. And the, and the divide, I think ideologically in this country is so vast and so deep and so unbridgeable that it, that we may as well be living in different universes. We may as well be aliens from different galaxies trying to live on a planet together, and it's just not working out. That's what it feels like. And so for me, that's where the fight is. That's where I want the fight to remain. Hey, it's a brag, but we're pretty confident this show is the most vehemently pro dog podcast you're ever going to see. We can take or leave some people, but dogs are non-negotiable. They are the best. They really are our best friends. 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It sounds amazing like it couldn't be real, but it actually is real. Visit Dutch.com slash Tucker to learn more. Use the code Tucker for 50 bucks off your veterinary care per year. Your dogs, your cats, and your wallet. We'll thank you. Okay. First of all, that's like the greatest description I've heard in a long time, the clearest. It was like music to me hearing that because I agreed with every single word. So strongly. You didn't mention economics, I noticed, which is revealing. I didn't. I wouldn't. And I know you've got views on it. I certainly do. But you mentioned what underlies the economic views, which is like your view of other human beings. Yeah, because I don't mean to, but yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that's a really important point because I am when it comes to economics, I'm pretty, I hate to use the term, I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to a lot of economics. I would love to see, I don't think there should be a welfare state at all. I think we should abolish food stamps. I think we should abolish the income tax. I think the income tax is evil. I think it's terrible. And so that's how I feel about it. However, as far as I'm concerned, you could be a conservative and have the exact opposite. You could be a conservative and say, you know what, I think we should raise the income tax. I think the welfare state is great. I think there should be more of it. I think we should get food stamps to more people. I think we should have universal basic income. I think all these things, you could have that view as a conservative. Now, I will vehemently disagree with you. I will argue with you and I will yell at you and you'll yell at me and that will be fine. But if the reason why you want that, it comes down to why do you want that? Why do you think we should have a welfare state? If your reason is that, well, this is the way to support families and this is the way to make sure that we can have more families and people can have kids. Well, I think you're wrong. I think actually it destroys the family, but you want the same thing as I do. And so we're on the same side. I just think that you're, I think you're lost. I think you're trying to find the same destination, but you're off in the woods somewhere on the path. And I want to, I want to, I want to wave to you and say, no, come back over here. But you're using the same alphabet. I mean, you're speaking in the same tongue. Like you have a common point of reference because you want the same outcome. Which is on the left, the reason why they want a lot of that stuff. More control. Is more control. And because they actually want to destroy the family. They want to make the family irrelevant. They say, well, you know, if we have a vast welfare state, everyone's got, everyone's getting money, they're, everyone's on the dole, then you don't really need the family and you don't need a father going to work and caring for his family. And so, and so that's what, that's what they're trying to get to. That's their reason for having that view. But who is they is the question. And as I heard you explain who you're fighting against and why, and I nodded along in agreement, I really was the choir to your sermon. I thought you're describing the people who defend the war in Gaza perfectly, perfectly. They don't believe in absolute standards of truth at all. What, what they're committing in Gaza is exactly what they decry correctly when it happens to other people. Can't kill innocence. They didn't do anything wrong. Not on purpose, you can. Period. You're not allowed to do that, but they defend it fully. So they don't believe in an absolute standard of behavior at all. They don't believe in truth. It's totally, it's dependent upon circumstance. Like, in fact, you even seen people say it out loud. You know, we, we raised an entire generation correctly to believe that slaughtering people because of how they were born is the greatest sin, which it is. I believe that. And now we're being, you know, hoisted by our own standards. And my view is no, standards are absolute. It's either true or it's not. And it's universally applicable or it's not a real thing. It's just group, it's identity politics. That's exactly what I hate. And identity politics is the kind of political expression of the worldview that you have just decried and declared war against. And God bless you for doing that. But that is in full flower on the right. And I'm not going to, I don't want to dignify people by naming them, but people I know who call themselves like MAGA conservatives are defending the murder of innocents. And by the way, some of them suggest we just move the refugees into the United States, because that's good for the country that they support. But is that good for us? That's an attack on American identity. You're also describing, by the way, in a lot of ways, Nicholas Maduro of Venezuela, who are all required to hate, and I'm not supporting him, of course. But this is like the most socially conservative country in Latin America that is banned abortion, banned gay marriage, banned gender transitions, banned usury, banned, you know, loaning at crazy interest levels, because it destroys people. I don't think he's done a good job running his country. Obviously he hasn't. But to your point that like, we should be open to talking to people who share our most basic values. How is he not on that list? Oh, shut up, you communists, but I'm not a communist. I'm not going to be bullied by your dumb labels, not yours, but I'm anticipating the many attacks. I have been attacked for saying that, but it's just, it's true. So what's the answer? Do you see what I'm saying? So I guess what's blowing my mind is that I thought I was speaking the same language as a lot of people that I disagreed with on the margins, like about what's the best way to harness capitalism to help people. I mean, these are real debates. And then I realized with the war in Gaza that like, these are people who don't believe in Western civilization, because Western civilization can be boiled down to one concept. That's the individual. If something, someone does something wrong, we punish that person, we don't kill his kids. Why do we do that? Why is that our standard? Because we believe that God created every person as an individual, and every person will stand before God alone to account for his life. He's not responsible for what his children do, what his ancestors did, what his forebears might do. He's responsible for himself because we believe in the individual soul, not the collective soul. And that's what makes our civilization unique in the history of the world, and it derives from Christianity, from the Christian belief of the individual soul. And I see all these people who like clearly don't believe that. So how are we on the same side? Well, I think, I mean, so this is where we can be friends on the same side and disagree, because, yeah, I wouldn't agree with everything you've just laid out there. I think that, I think, the last time we talked, we talked a little bit about Israel, and my take at the time was, I really don't care. I honestly don't care. I want that take bad. I don't want to care. I don't want anything to do. That's still my take. That's always been my take. It upsets people on both. This is one legitimately on both sides of the Israel issue. People get mad at me for that, because they say that, well, if they're very pro-Israel, they say, well, you're being a coward, and you need to stand up and support Israel and talk about how Israel's our greatest, most important ally and all this stuff. But then on another side, very much, it's, well, no, Israel's the great Satan. They're the most evil country in the world. They're responsible for everything bad that happens, which is something that I think some people legitimately really do believe at some level. A lot of people believe that. Right. And so then they say to me, well, you need to stand up and say that. And again, my response to that is, first of all, don't tell me what to say. Okay. I have my own mind. Amen. So don't tell me what to say. I will say what I want to say. And I can only speak from my own opinion. This is my view. And I think, and we'll get back to it, but not to get sidetracked. This is one thing, by the way, that's making political conversation in this country impossible, is that all anyone ever does anymore is impugned the motives behind the argument that you're making. So you make an argument and then everyone goes, well, you're only saying that because, and it's like, first of all, even if it's true that I'm making this argument for some dishonest reason, well, is the argument right or not? Because if the argument is right, the argument's still right, even if I'm the worst guy in the world saying it. It's also like arguing with a woman, they tell you what you think, and it's like, no, I'm actually telling you what I think. Right. And why? And what? Right. And well, here's why you're really saying that. Well, for me, the only person who can speak to your motives is you. Exactly. And so if I ask you, well, why are you saying that? And you tell me, I have no choice but to just accept that because I'm not in your mind. You're the only authority. You are the only authority of what is in your mind. You're the only one on the planet. The only other authority, the only greater authority is God. And I can't really ask him. So I can only go to you on that. And so for me. You're describing my life, but yes, I disagree with you. So for me, on Israel, when I say I don't care, and everyone on both sides goes, well, you're saying that because, no, I'm saying that because that's what I think. I'm saying, and I always have, which is why, by the way, you can go through my catalog. I've been blabbering my opinions publicly for a while now. And not as, you know, I haven't been in the business as long as you, but I've been, you know, at least 10 years on the record. And if you go through that before I worked at the Daily Wire, and, and while I was there when I was independent, I was an independent blogger, just like churning out content. And, you know, then you can go through all that. And here's what you'll find. You'll find that I almost never ever talked about Israel. And when I did talk about it on the rare, like once every five years, if it came up, my take was I don't really care about this. I don't care about this country. It's not my country. You know, if you're, if you're in America, if you're an American politician, you should care about America first. And that's it. That's always been my take. So that's always been my take. By the way, me too, believe it or not, up until the last year, I don't, in 35 years, I don't think I've talked about Israel 10 times. December's already here. It was just some of the other day. Your life is moving fast. As always, there's lots to keep track of between Christmas, family, giving presents, keeping up with your regular life. Times like these are when moments of peace become essential. They're the chance to recharge. And that's why we love cozy earth. 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It's not actually about Israel. It's about the components of the American right. Right. Who are defending mass murder. And I mean that murder killing people who didn't do anything wrong in Gaza. That's it. It's not Israel. It's what about the parts of this coalition that as you noted, Charlie really did keep together that are now fracturing. But one of the reasons they're fracturing is because they have different views, different world views. And that is obvious when you hear how they respond to the murder of like kids and women in Gaza. So it's Americans responding to that. Are you really conservative? How are you not the leftist that you just described if you're like, well, they're basically all Hamas, including the kids. That is collective punishment. That's blood guilt. That's the opposite of what you described. How can I be on the same side as someone with that attitude? Well, here's what I would say. I think that if somebody is making the argument that we or Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they want, can kill children because their lives have no value because they're Palestinian. If you're making that argument, then that is a leftist argument. Exactly. It's a leftist argument. However, however, however, I think that there are plenty of people who would defend and have defended Israel's actions in Gaza and even our involvement, which I don't agree with us being involved at all. But people have had that view. But not on that basis. What they would say is, they would say, oh, well, it's not true that we're that they're killing children. It's not or it's really tragic. But there's no other way to fight the war. It's not intentional. It's we're actually targeting the terrorists. And this is these are casualties that happen like in any war. It's very bad. You try to minimize them. But we don't want that to happen. They could say, you know, many arguments along those lines, just also arguments that just kind of reject the premise, like your premise is that they're doing mass murder of people in Gaza. I think that there are conservatives who would just reject that premise and say, that's not actually happening. Okay. But if you just the I think the undisputed fact, there are tens of thousands, 70,000, we can certainly say tens of thousands of women and children killed in Gaza. And so there are really two arguments you can make. One is that like that happens in war, collateral damage, which is true. It's 100% true that that always happens in war. It hasn't happened at the scale in 80 years, but in the West. But it does happen. And the United States has done a lot of it. We dropped the atom bombs. Okay. So like, we're not Israel is not the only country that's done this. But what are, are you sad about it? Do you think it's bad? Would you be willing to say, holy shit, I can't believe we killed 70,000 noncombatants? That's the acid test. Can you admit that that's horrible? It's horrible. It's a moral crime. It was a moral crime. We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. And it's not even a close call in my view. It's not an endorsement of the Imperial Japanese government, but it's like, that's just bad. If you can't say that, then you are endorsing collective punishment, aren't you? Well, I think it goes back to what argument are you making? So like using Hiroshima, for example. And I'll be honest, I've kind of been on both sides of that. I think there's interesting arguments on both sides. I think a morally untenable argument would be, well, yeah, it just kills many as you need to. They don't matter. They were Japanese. They were the enemy. Just kill them. Like that's morally untenable, obviously. And based on that argument, well, then we could just nuke. If you get into a war, just like nuke the entire country, kill everybody. And why not? And that obviously is, that is rejecting the value of human life, which is, which is an unconservative view. It's also just deeply immoral. But the other, the other side of the argument for like the atom bomb, for example, would say, well, this was the best way to preserve human life, that these were legitimate military targets. And the way to preserve human life ultimately was this way. If we had not done it, then millions more people would have died, millions more Japanese would have died. And that's the argument. Now, like I said, I can see the argument for that. Now, that runs into the charge of ends justify the means. Well, it doesn't run into the charge. It's an expression of ends justify. Well, there's all, yeah, there's, there's ends justify. It's like the perfect articulation of it's like, if I could save millions by shooting your children, it's okay to shoot your children. But I think there's a dip, like there's ends justify the means. Now we're getting into philosophical. I'm not a philosopher. There's ends justify the means. There's also the kind of the principle of double effect, which is different and double effect is well, so I understand it. You can do something that you know will have a negative effect, but your intentions are good. And, and it's you're doing it in order to bring about a good result. This was the argument that Hitler and Stalin made. If you take a look at Stalin's personal correspondence and diaries, which by the way are available, it was super interesting. He was an idealist, like he really believed he was ushering in a new era of man. And like you had to kill a lot of Ukrainians to do that in Georgians and Russians, by the way, a lot of Christians, you had to murder a lot of priests to get there. But by the end, you would have utopia. Hitler felt that way. It's like if we only get the Jews out, everything will be great. And so, but we are against them because we don't share that view. We believe in human life, like it's not okay to kill an innocent person. Yeah, I think that argument, well, it's not yeah, it's not okay to intentionally and deliberately kill an innocent person. I think that's in war, innocent people do die. I think that there can, there are a lot of wars that have been unjust. There are there are such a thing as a just war, for sure. There's such a thing as a necessary war. And if we can agree on that, then then we have to accept that any war innocent people will die. It's terrible tragedy. So now, but the argument that I was just just laying out for dropping the atom bomb, it's true, like that that can be terribly abused. My only point is, and I'm not even taking a position on that, because I honest my my honest view is like, I kind of feel like I have I have an opinion of it, and then I express it and someone comes and they just eviscerate my argument on it. And then I think, well, you might be right. And then I hear, so like that's super tough. I mean, I should just say, I hope I don't sound self I hope I don't sound self righteous. I've my views have changed. If you went through my corpus of opinions, it would be a Jackson Pollock painting, it would just be splashes of everything. So like my views are evolving in real time. I but I, I've been forced to think about it because of what's happening in Gaza. It's like I don't feel like I have a choice. My only my point about that is whatever is the correct view. Let's just accept for the sake of argument. I'll take your view that dropping out of bomb was morally wrong. I still think that somebody could be wrong about that. But for the right reasons. And so they're still kind of on my side, because the the wrong, if you're correct in your argument, then the wrong for the right reasons position is, yeah, we we we cherish human life. This was the best way ultimately to preserve human life. And again, you can say, well, that's wrong. But someone could have that view. And the reason why they have it is because they truly believe in the sanctity of human life. And they just honestly believe that that was the best way to preserve that was my opinion until recently as a lifelong adamant pro lifer. So I, I mean, I want to give myself the benefit of the doubt. You know, I'm not for dead kids. I guess what is really brought this to the fore is a guy called Randy Fine, who's a congressman from Florida, who, you know, I disagree with on a lot. I don't think I disagree with him on anything, actually, he spent his career in the gambling business exploiting people. And now he got some kind of clever way to find a Senate house seat in Florida, everything about it, I disapprove of. And of course, I don't like his foreign policy views. But there are a lot of people like that. And I'm not mad at them. What makes him unusual is that he said out loud what I think a lot of people think, which is like, it's hilarious to see a picture of a dead child in Gaza. Somebody tweeted him, I know you're online, you've seen this, a picture of a dead baby in Gaza. And he laughed at it and said, someone said, how can you sleep at night, you know, getting self righteous with him? Okay, being high handed, like the anti war left is, how can you sleep? But okay, so I get it, they're annoying. But like, it is like, his response was very well, thank you, thanks for the pick. If that's your gut reaction to a picture of a dead baby, we are not on the same side. In any way, on the deepest level, we're not on the same side. I'm a father, like, I'm not, how can I laugh at that? I can't. And that to me revealed what I think a lot of people think, who I know very well, who call themselves conservatives, which is just like, these are not human beings. Well, if you've got that attitude, how can you, how can you really care about me or my country or my children? Like, I don't think you can. Yeah, I think that I certainly would agree with you on that. If you think that dead kids are funny, then we're not, we're not just on the same side, but this goes back to, I don't think we're living in the same universe. You're the leftists, right? You described. Yeah, because you fundamentally cannot value human life if you could ever see it as funny that a child was. I think. So, so for sure. And I think that there are people that we would call neocons that are definitely not conservative by any stretch. My only point to you is that, I think there are plenty of people who are on the other side of the argument who are conservative and they just don't, they don't agree with the premise that you're laying out. They don't. And they do want to preserve human life. They think this is the way to do it. They could be wrong. But people can be wrong. But they haven't thought about it or the partisan system. I'll speak for myself. I didn't think about it at all. And all the people getting mad about Hiroshima hated America. It's just a fact. And they wanted to say that all American military expeditions were immoral because America was fundamentally immoral. That's the point they were making. They wanted us to hate ourselves. They taught us a history that convinced our kids to hate themselves and to hate their own country. And that's all evil and we're watching the results of it now. So I was like, man, there's no way I'm on their side. Like they hate everything that I love, including my nation. So I just was like, if you're for it, I'm not for it. And because I'm a child that way, like I just react against things. But now I'm feeling like I got misled into supporting an awful lot of violence, like a lot of violence. And how was that good? Yeah, I think, well, so there's two things. First of all, there's maybe there's a whole other category we should be talking about because we're talking about left, right, conservative, liberal. Then you have, you also have the politicians who often, not always, but often are neither. And they don't have it. They don't have an ideology and for sure. And their ideology is control and power. And that's what they care about. What percentage would you say fall into that category? 95%. It feels that way. Well, I would amend that. I think it's it used to be 95% I want control and power. I think now it's more like, this is even worse. Now it's like 70% want control and power. And then you've got another 20% who they're just there because they want attention, like the Jasmine Crockets, right? They're just there because they want to be influencers, like Jasmine Crocket. I'm so grateful for her. She amuses me every day. But if you were to go to Jasmine Crocket and say, okay, here's two buttons, press one button, and you're the president of the United States, press the other button, and you have 50 million Instagram followers. She is pressing the Instagram button in a second. But that's a different like species of politician we never seen before. Because up to this point, every single politician, like I can be president, I'll take that over. If it's like, press this button, you can be president. But as a consequence, your whole family dies. They're pressing the button. Oh, yeah. A lot of these people. And now it's a little bit there's there are people who they're politicians, they're not even really hungry for power. They just want attention, which I think in some ways is somehow even worse. But anyway, the the the just want power category, I think that does describe a lot of the people we would call like neocons. Lindsey Graham, yeah, is for sure in this category. You know, I don't know where it was. He gave a speech recently, he was talking about, I think it was him bragging about how we ran out of bombs or something like that. I think I have the right person here. Yeah. And and so it's like, okay, well, you obviously do not take human life seriously. If you just think it's it's like you just want to run out of the bombs. And and and for someone like him, this is not someone who's a conservative at all. He doesn't but it's not for someone like him. He doesn't I don't think that he's passionately in favor of like abortion or destroying the family. Doesn't care doesn't matter, right? It doesn't doesn't matter to him. So so that I think that's that's the other category that exists. And really, that's really smart. That's really smart. It's like post ideological. It's even kind of post power. It's pure narcissism. Yeah. Although I in if I could, I'm actually glad you brought up because I wanted to talk to you about this. In defense of violence, if I if I could, I because I've heard you talk about about this and my views are by the way changing even during this conversation, like this is all new to me. So I don't so because I'm actually I think in some ways we should have a lot more violence in society. I'm sort of pro violence in a certain context. I think that violence can be a necessary tool for justice. I just believe that now it can be really misused. And it very often is. And I think it very often is these days. But it is a necessary tool for justice. And so what I'm really mostly talking about are evil people who've committed terrible crimes against the innocent. And I think that through a legal means, and I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about extra issue winchings or anything. I'm talking about legal means. For those kinds of people, we should be using violence a lot more. Because I think that it's just I just think that it's justice. What is justice? Justice is giving to someone what they're owed, you know, giving to anything. What is putting things in the right place, basically, I would say is is justice. So giving someone what they're owed is justice. So if you owe me $5, it's justice that you give me $5. That's a matter of justice. And if you give me $3, you owe me $5, that's an injustice that has occurred. Now, if I slap your wife in front of you, I'm owed something else. I'm not owed $5, but I am owed something now. Like there it is right that I receive something. And that I would say is a slap right. It's you slap my wife, I'll punch you 10 times in the face instead, like that is a just response. That is justice. And I think what we have these days, you got a lot of people walking around doing this assault, like literally assaulting women, you know, and they don't receive what they're owed. And what they're owed is harsh and I think sometimes violent, but just punishment. And so that's my one kind of caveat. You know, it's hard to disagree with that. It's, I mean, of course, viscerally, I agree with you and all of this is just aimed at whites, obviously, because what you're talking about is a racial dynamic where non-whites who commit crimes just aren't punished as harshly as whites who commit crimes. So it's a racial double standard designed to like destroy the country, which it's doing. And I feel that every person feels that like the need for justice. And sometimes that is that expression is physical. How do you balance that against like the Sherman on the Mount, which I happened to have read this morning, where Jesus is like, well, the law is eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, but I tell you, you know, turn the other cheek and, you know, he takes your shirt, give me your cloak. I'll tell you, because I've thought a lot about this. I mean, obviously, hopefully, all Christians have thought about the sermon on the Mount a lot. It's only the most important public address that's ever been delivered. Mind blowing. Right. But whenever people are like, oh, Jesus was a great person, great teacher, you read that and you're like, either he was God or this whole thing is insane. Because this is not, it's not intuitive wisdom in the sermon on the Mount. Yeah, that's the C.S. Lewis, the trilemma, lunatic liar or lord. You know, those are the only options. But anyway, so yeah, of course, as all Christians should, I've thought a lot about this and how do you, because I also recognize in myself, I'm talking about how violence can be just and I really believe that. But I also, I have a, a, a ventral streak in me. I fully recognize that. Yeah, me too. And when I see evil people, I actually, I actually do sometimes hate them. And hate means like, I don't just want justice for you. I want you to suffer. Yes. And I want you to burn in hell. And that, and as Christians, we should never want that. We should never, we should never want anyone to be damned. And sometimes I find that feeling in myself. I pray about it. I just have to be honest that I do feel that way about really bad people. But how do you, how do you square this? I think that, so turn the other cheek. I think it's very important to notice that Jesus is saying, if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek. Yeah. What he does not say is if someone slaps your wife, or someone slaps your child, or someone slaps an innocent woman on the subway, turn the other cheek. Because turn the other cheek in that situation is not you being the bigger man. It's you being a coward. And so I, that's how I square it. And that's how I can also square Jesus having these kinds of, you know, quote unquote, anti, you know, violence statements that he made with also, famously, he goes into the temple and fashions a whip. I mean, that's what the scripture says. It's not even like he grabbed one. This was a premeditated. This was premeditated. He made it. Yes. First degree. And so he fashions a whip and he starts beating these people to get them out of the temple. And that is violent. I mean, think about, it's easy to read these stories and just read it as a story we've heard a million times. We've heard in Sunday schools, a child, it gets kind of sanitized. Well, imagine actually seeing this happen. I mean, imagine actually seeing it in real life that you're there and somebody has a whip and they are throwing down tables, beating people with whips. I mean, there's going to be blood. It's going to be a very brutal sin. In the temple of all places. Right. In the temple. And yet, this was Jesus Christ who did it. This was our Lord and Savior who did this act. And so it was and had to be a moral act. And so what that tells us is that violence is sometimes necessary. Now, the rejoinder to that is, well, that was God made flesh who used violence. And that doesn't mean that you can do it. Right. And well, there's also a theme that runs throughout the New Testament where Jesus and his disciple, Paul, draw very clean distinction between you as a Christian and the state. So the state is held to the state operates by a different code. Right. Right. I don't know. I'm the opposite of a theologian. I really don't know. What happens when the state, and we're experiencing this right now, because I think that is kind of the answer. The state has authority from God. Now, it doesn't, like that's, it's hard sometimes, especially for conservatives to accept that, but that's scriptural. The state has authority from God. Now, it can reject its mandate. It can do things that are evil, obviously. And it can do things that we should reject. And in some cases, even rebel against in the most extreme cases. So we know all that is true. But, but the state as like an institution, generally speaking, has authority. This is this is God ordained. This is what God wants. He doesn't want us all to live as he doesn't want anarchy, you know, where there's no there's no one in charge. But so the state has that authority. What happens when the state refuses to exercise that authority? Right. And, and what happens when it refuses to enact justice? And it refuses to protect the innocent? What happens then? You overthrow the state? Yeah, at what point? At what point morally can the average citizen say, well, the state is not doing this? And so I have no choice but to do it. If I don't do it, then it won't be done. And I think we're getting perilsly close to a point where people en masse start saying that they start saying, the state is not doing this, they're not defending my family, they're not defending my community. My community is unlivable. These these these violent psychopaths who've been arrested 40 times are running through the street assaulting women assaulting children, and I cannot live this way anymore. And I won't live this way. And I think we're getting perils to close to a point where en masse people start saying that. And when they're saying that, or blessedly close, well, perils, because that's not I would prefer that's not the best option. The best option is the state does its job. When when when the other option is ultimately chaos, I mean, that's where it leads. And but that's where we are. I think right now you have like the best version of that are people who are have benevolent intentions, and know what they're doing, and are good decent people. And they step up in an extreme situation because nobody else will. And they do the thing that the state won't do. But they don't go overboard, and they don't become, you know, Batman. And so like Daniel Penny, for example, I mean, Daniel Penny is an example of someone who said, Okay, I got to step in, I got to do the right thing. This guy should not be out here. He should not be allowed on this subway. There should be some kind of cop here to arrest him. No one is doing it. I'm going to step up. And and I'm and I'm glad that he did. He was right to do it. And so that's the that's the best version of the best version of people stepping in where the state has failed. Is it get a presidential medal of freedom? What happened to Daniel Penny? That's a that's a very good, good question. Well, he was they tried to throw him in prison. No, I know. It was a troll call question. But it's like, if you see heroism like that, and it goes unrewarded, in fact, if it's punished, then then you have a total inversion of justice. And then and then and so how is the state legitimate at that point? Right. And by design, when people like that become punished or punished as they mean, they tried to put him in prison, they thank God, we're not successful. But they, you know, they try to destroy his life. Everybody else looks at that. And I think by design has this demoralizing effect, because everybody else looks at that, and they say, Well, I don't want that to happen. And now, I think I mean, I don't ride the subway, because I value my my life. But if I were on the subway, and I saw something like that happening, I'd be thinking to myself, what I hope I would step in. But I'd also be thinking, well, I got a family at home, I got a wife. And if I step in and I go to prison. And so so now I can't be there for my wife and children. And so is it right for me to step up and protect these strangers? If the consequence is now I can't protect my own wife and children? That's right. I don't know. And I don't even know what the right answer is. I don't know. I can't even say for sure if I'm if I'm looking at that happening. And I'm in Daniel Penny's shoes, and I got a wife and children at home. I think the right thing is for me to step up and do what he did. But I'm not even sure if it's the right thing, because because I got a wife and kids. And now I got to call them. I got to call my wife and say, Hey, by the way, I might be going to prison forever. Good luck. You know, I don't know. It's it puts it creates a lose lose unwinnable situation. Even now you feel that even after the last election, and clearly there's a reaction against the kind of government that we had. You still would feel like no one in authority would support you. And yeah, generally, I think the rot. Well, first of all, this is a this is a I mean, when we talk about the state in general failing to do the basic things to preserve civilization, this is a wide problem. It goes to the state level, it's the local level cities. And has all of that been fixed? Like definitely not. I mean, not even close. Well, so that that was kind of the broad that was exactly the question I'm asking in it. I don't even know if I have you sent out an amazing tweet recently. Oh, it's right here. December 4. I want to read it. It's an empirical fact that basically everything in our day to day lives has gotten worse over the years, the quality of everything food, clothing, entertainment, air travel, roads, traffic, infrastructure, housing, etc. has declined in observable ways. You're a nice writer, by the way. Thank you. Not have good writing on Twitter. Oh, even newer inventions, search engines, social media, smartphones have gone downhill drastically. This isn't just a random old man yells at clouds complaint. It's true. It's happening. The decline can be measured. Everyone sees it. Everyone feels it. Meanwhile, political pundits and podcast hosts, speaking of things, they're getting worse. Focus on anything and everything except these practical real life problems that actually affect our quality of life. So I'd like eight questions there. And I'm going to ask you about your core observation. Is it getting worse? Clearly it is. Why are podcast hosts and pundits ignoring this physical reality? I don't know. I think that it's a wide group of people. I think they have different motivations. I think for, well, there's the most obvious answer is that for a lot of these people, pundits, podcast hosts, cable news, all the media in general, a lot of them, I think, are insulated from a lot of this stuff. They don't live in this world. Yeah, that's right. And things like so, for example, we're talking about things that are getting worse. One thing, and it seems small, but it's not, one thing that's really getting worse is restaurant food. The food at most restaurants, we're talking about chain restaurants, you got to Applebee's or Chili's or whatever. You order a pizza from one of these places, especially one of these chain places. And the food is worse. And that's not just, again, it's not old man, I am an old man yelling at clubs, but it's not what this is. It is true. It's a real thing that's happening. And you can trace it. You can look at, okay, starting in the early 2000s, all these places started getting bought up by private equity companies. And so now they're run by people who don't care about the product or even know anything about it. So that's happening. Also, it used to be that you go to these places, and it's a bunch of teenagers and college kids that are working there. And they're just working there to make some money to pay for college or whatever. And that's happening less now. And now you've got adults, an increasing number of people with substance abuse problems, people who, they're in their late 20s, and they're still, they're doing a job at a 16-year-old, used to do, because their life isn't working out exactly as a show. That's its own problems. Like, why is that happening, right? But the effect of that is that even a lot of the people, not all of them at all, but a lot of the people in the establishments that are working there on the ground don't really care that much about the product. And you can see why they don't care. They're getting paid crap wages. They've got a difficult life. They're working for people who don't care about it. So the guy who runs this, if I'm working at Applebee's and I'm a waiter, and I'm looking at it like, okay, the guy who runs this place doesn't know anything about this. He doesn't care. I'm getting paid nothing. Why do I care? So I don't care. And so that's happening. And then the quality of the food, it used to be that most of these places made their food fresh. Now, no place makes fresh food anymore. They all buy frozen food. There are a couple of food distributors. Cisco is one of them, that the vast majority of the food that you eat at a Chili's or Applebee's or whatever is distributed. It comes off the same truck. It's the same frozen food that comes off of the same truck. And that is served in all these places, which is why all the food sucks and it all tastes the same, because it's literally the same. People don't know that even it with pizza places, again, everything's frozen. There's one, I forget the name of it, there's one cheese distributor that distributes most of the cheese at all these different places. And that's like the crucial element of a pizza. And it's literally the same. It's the same thing. And but they're just pretending that it's not. So my point is that this is a small thing. By the way, it's not a small thing. Right. So it's not a- What people eat is important. Yes, it's quality of life. It's your diet. It's what you eat. It's, and that stuff really matters. Now, podcast hosts and pundits, a lot of them, why don't they care? Well, there's two reasons. Number one, they're not eating at these places. And if you have money, then you don't have to worry about that because you can go to expensive places where the steak costs $85 and it's not going to hurt you much because you got a lot of money. And if you have a lot of money, then you don't notice any of this because at the really fancy restaurants where people spend a lot of money, most of those places are still making fresh food. And the service is a lot better because they're paying better wages to their to the waiters. Like now you've got older waiters and waitresses, but they're older who have kind of climbed at the ladder. They're really good at this. They get paid better wages. They care about it. Like you go into one of these fancy places and I like eating it. I mean, who doesn't like eating these kind of restaurants? The food is good. But you go into it and one of the first things you notice before you even get to the quality of the food is that everyone, at least in the good places, everyone that you interact with starting at the hostess stand seems to be really happy that you're there and they care that you're having a good experience. That is not how it works when you go to Chili's. So anyway, these podcasts, these people that I'm talking about, they're in those places. And so they're not in the places where the quality is falling off a cliff. And then also, I think that, and this is something we all do and I do it too, you get caught in this. We're dealing with like national issues all the time. We're dealing with politics and what's happening in Washington and the president and geopolitics and what's happening. We're dealing with these massive big things all the time. If you're a pundit, if you do commentary. And so you can fall into this line of thinking that the things that actually impact someone's physical everyday life, those things are just too small to worry about. Well, politicians wind up at this exact place. And it's true that because I run into this, when I start talking about this stuff, I will hear this criticism from people. They'll say, why are you talking about this? I did a whole video on my channel a few weeks ago. I did like a 30 minute monologue on why does restaurant food suck? And there are two interesting things that happen after I talked about this issue. One is that I did get a lot of criticism from people saying, everything's happening in the world, you're talking about Applebee's, like, why are you talking about this? It's like, how out of touch are you? But really, it's the opposite. It's like, no, this is this is the stuff that's happening in people's lives. But so that I got that criticism. But then what I also noticed is that a lot of people watch that video, it was like one of the more successful terms of traffic videos that I've done in a while. And it was just about food at Applebee's. And why is that? It's because again, this is like, this is your life. This is what's happening in your actual life. And it matters. It touches you. And it touches your family. Yes. And this is one thing I noticed about a lot of people in the world that I have always lived in is they either spend time, and this is true for me, I'll admit it, they either spend time in very rich places, or in very rural, like low income places. But there's no time spent in the middle, which is where the overwhelming majority of Americans live. So it's like, only rich people, only poor people, but no middle class people. So they have a sense of like, you know, a lot of rich people have summer houses, so they sort of get the, you know, if you're on an intucket, right? And you go there in the winter and everyone's on drugs, you're like, Oh, wow. You know, fentanyl is a huge problem in our country. But there's no Applebee's. There's no Applebee's in Cambridge, Mass. There's no Applebee's in Nintucket. There's no, do you see what I'm saying? You just, you do get a very, I am so guilty of this. In fact, so guilty that I really go out of my way to like, understand, you know, but there's no sense of like normalcy. Yeah. It's also in the same way that like the richest people, Bill Gates, for example, are totally focused on curing African in Congo, I mean, curing malaria, polio, they're obsessed with the problems of the poorest while living the lives of the richest, but like the bulk of the population is invisible to them. Yeah, I think that's right. I was having a conversation with someone recently who's in the business and I don't know, I mentioned in passing, I remember why, I just mentioned a passing. I just been out, I just was coming, I just had been to Walmart. I was buying something, whatever, I went to Walmart. And this person was shocked that I'd gone to Walmart and they said, I haven't been in a Walmart in 20 years. Because there are no whites in Walmart. That's the other thing. They're like, they're, you drive into like middle America, there are no, I don't know what happened all the whites, but we like to say that. I just notice it, like there's no whites like a rest area on the highway anymore. Yeah. And in Walmart, I go to buy sporting clays. That's my only shopping trip of the year usually. And it's like, where are the white people? That's part of the thing. It's a small thing, but it's just, it's emblematic of the problem. It's like, well, there's been total demographic change. As a commentator, if you have never been in a Walmart or it's like, well, then that's America. I mean, that's middle America. Oh, I totally agree. So it's just, there's a basic, I'm not saying you got to go and walk around a Walmart, like a safari trip, just to understand America. I'm just saying that it's just like, that's, yeah, that's what's going on in America is a place like that. And if you're just never there at all, to your point about either you're out in the sticks or you're in the really wealthy areas, then you're not really in touch with what's actually happening in America. And one of those things is, yeah, when you go, you do notice this, when you go to the places where everybody goes, Walmart is one of those places, the DMV is one of those places, like a place where everybody has to go. Unless they're very, very, very rich or very, very, very poor. When you go to those places, you do notice, you start noticing things. And one of those things is yeah, it looks a lot different now. It's not nearly as many white people as there used to be. You start noticing those kinds of things. Yeah. Like, it, you know, I've never been a bigot. It's prohibited by my religion. But I also think there's overwhelming pressure not to notice obvious things. And I try to keep myself, you know, alert just to notice what my eyes tell me. And that's the biggest change. That's an incredibly fast change, incredibly fast change. Not is not an accidental change. It was an intentional change to reduce the white population in the United States. And I've kind of never seen anybody more passively accepted. And I wonder, like, are we getting to a point where we can say that and notice it? And why is that good, exactly? Well, for every other, it's, it's funny, because certainly for every other race on the planet, if we were to look and see that in their native countries, they are dwindling and disappearing. Everyone, it would be nothing controversial about saying, well, this is bad. No one would say, well, why is it bad? You know, if I'm not even saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's so profound and abrupt. Well, I will, I will say, I think it's bad. Yeah. I think if you go to Nigeria, if I were to go to Nigeria and notice that like all the Nigerians are disappearing, yeah, I would say, well, what's going on here? I mean, like, everyone's Chinese all of a sudden. Right. That's like, that's bad. And if I said that no one, I don't think anyone would even ask, well, why is it bad? What do you mean, why is it bad? It's Nigeria, like, there should be Nigerians in Nigeria. And it's bad if some other group comes in and takes it over. And I think for any other race or demographic on the planet, you can say that for white people, we're the one race, the one demographic where it's not even just that you can't notice that this replacement is happening. It's that, in fact, we're at the point now where you should notice it and celebrate it. It should be seen as a good thing. So not only that, but isn't that evil? Isn't anyone who tells me that I'm not allowed to notice or scolds me for noticing? Isn't that person my enemy? Isn't that, I mean, how could you justify that? What does that say about your motives? Yeah, I think, I think so. And also, it's, I said it's every other demographic on the planet. Any other species on the planet, like if I, yeah, it's so true. Yeah, if we're all the condors, right, exactly. If I, if we look, we get these panics all the time, oh, all the Amazonian horned owls are disappearing or whatever. And they're going away. We have to preserve them. No one even stops and asks like, why do we need Amazonian horn? We've got a million other owls. Well, owls, why do we need these owls? And it's just seen as like, well, they're a species that existed, they should continue to exist. And so for every other demographic and species of living being, we can all agree that if those people disappear, that it's bad and white people only want, that when we can't say that, and part of the reason for that, I think, is, well, there's a lot of anti-white sentiment. But also, so I use the example of Nigeria. Everyone recognizes that Nigerians or black are the native inhabitants of Nigeria. And so if the native inhabitants go away, we see that as a bad thing. The Amazonian horned owl is a native inhabitant of the, I don't think that exists. I'm just, you know, whatever. But they're a native inhabitant of the Amazon. And so they should be there. With white people, it's this really interesting thing where what we're told is that white people are not native anywhere. We are not indigenous to anywhere, which is why, and I'm not like making this up, there is nowhere in the world you can go where the people who are officially recognized as the indigenous habitants are white, nowhere. White people do not- But how is that not genocidal intent? Well, that's my point. So it's like, okay, so we're not indigenous to anywhere. So where are we supposed to be? Because the other part is- We should be dead. Apparently, yeah. Because we're told that, okay, here are the indigenous habitants and the, what's implied every time we talk about indigenous people or just outright said, is that, well, they, this land is really theirs. And so you shouldn't be here. And so what we're saying to white people everywhere is that you shouldn't be here. Well, where should we be? Do you want us to go to Mars? I mean, are we gonna, like, are we going to Jupiter? Where are we supposed to be? Or are you just gonna throw us into the ocean? And I think the answer is that we really shouldn't be anywhere, which is why we should not be embarrassed or afraid to say that the native, like, Native Americans are white people of European descent. That is true. The people that we call Native Americans now are not Native Americans. And the reason they're not Native Americans is because they did not form a country called America. They are not Native. America is a country. It's not just a place. It's not just a plot of land. It is a country. And before America was formed as a nation, this place was not America, because America didn't exist. America existed when it was formed. And so if someone can trace their lineage back to the Comanche on the Great Plains, well, that doesn't make you a, you weren't Native to America. You're a Native to Comanche-Area. You're Native to this. You're not Native to the country of America. The people who are Native to the nation of America, the people formed this nation, were by and large, almost exclusively white people of European descent. They are the natives of this country. They are the ones who formed this country. That doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to live here. It just means that they're the natives. And again, anywhere else in the world, there's nothing controversial about pointing that out. And we're the only place where we're not allowed to say that. But I've been on this. I've been preaching this for a while now. I think we should, we need, and not just as a gimmick, like I really believe we should reclaim the title of Native American and not to, not to denigrate the people that we call natives, who I think that they're, it's really interesting to read about their cultures and their history. Oh, they're amazing people, but not Native to here. They're not Native to America. And they also, by the way, they're also not Native in the strictest sense to this hemisphere. Like they didn't sprout out of the ground. They came here at some point in the past. From Asia. From Asia. They fought brutally with each other over the land. All of the so-called natives that were here and had claimed land when Europeans first started showing up in the late 1400s, early 1500s, all of those people were on that land because they brutally killed who'd been on it before. And they raped their women and took their children as slaves. One wave of conquest supplanted the next. Exactly. And the law of conquest is what determined. No, it's, of course, it's factually true. And by the way, it's been suppressed for many decades by anthropologists and archaeologists, by the official policy of the US government, but cracking the human genome made it impossible to deny the origin of the, of the American Indians, which was Asia. Fine. I mean, I really like the Native Americans. I do too. Personally. Yeah, I'm not against them at all. I feel so bad for them. But you're absolutely 100% right. I just find it so interesting the coordinated effort to, to exterminate white people, which is in full flower now, but it's so, you know, it's 1945 is when it started. And, but it was every part of our society. I mean, I remember at Fox News, in the most gentle way, trying to say, you know, maybe all lives do matter, or we shouldn't attack whites because they're white, man. That was like the worst argument I ever got in with it, with a senior executive at the, at the network, like that's racist. No, it's actually an argument against racism. It's like everybody on all sides was so brainwashed and just accepting this. And then of course it happened. And so I wonder, does it ever let up? It didn't let up in Zimbabwe or South Africa. You like, take the power, kill a bunch of whites, suppress them. And then like 30 years later, you're still blaming them for everything? Will that happen here when this becomes majority non-white? I, all indications are that it will continue. I mean, So how do you respond to it? What's the right way to respond? You don't want some kind of race war? I don't want to wake up every day thinking about my whiteness. I'm not interested in my whiteness, just being honest. I don't like thinking in those terms. Sorry, call me a boomer, which I'm not, but I just don't want to, I want to see people as people. But how do you respond to that? Because you can't allow that. You can't allow people to attack your kids because of their skin color. What the fuck? Right, exactly. I think you respond to it. And I think there has been some progress actually in this regard, probably a significant amount. You've been a big part of that, by the way, on the right. So thank you. Well, I mean, I think a lot. I think, I think this is one of the things, like I said before, there are some victories that conservatives have had. Yeah. I know some of the more doom-reminded conservatives say, what do we conserve? We don't conserve anything. Well, I'm not saying it's been a, it's been a, you know, I'm not saying it's been, we've been batting a thousand, but I think we have succeeded. I think they're referring, I thought, well, maybe this was what I think, but I do think they're mostly referring to conservative institutions. Yeah, which Republican Congress or some Republican think tank, like those clearly haven't achieved a lot. Yeah, I would agree with that. But so one, so one success that I think that you're starting to see recently is that the left used to get a lot of mileage out of obviously not engaging with arguments, but just labeling them. They would just label the argument. And so they would say, their way of engaging with the argument is say, well, argument's not wrong or right. I don't care about that. The argument is in isst or ism. The argument is racist. The argument is, you know, whatever, bigoted, Islamophobic, whatever, anti-Semitic. So that they used to, they used to get a lot of mileage out of that. And I think what's happening now is that people are, people are saying, well, I don't care about the labels. Like you can say whatever label you want. Exactly. It just doesn't, it doesn't mean anything to me. And the reason it doesn't mean anything to me is it's not my fault. It's your fault. When you decided that everything fits under that label, the label doesn't mean anything anymore. Exactly. And I think that's made people more, more fearless. There was a time, I mean, look, you go back, let go back to 2000, not 2000, well, certainly 2000, but even going back to 2020 in the throes of the Floydist area. And for a lot of people being called racist was, it's like the worst thing in the world. They were terrified of it. Oh, yeah. Being called racist was it, for a lot of people, that was worse than being called like a child molester. I mean, they, they, they would rather be called anything but racist. And there's all this fear. And I think the, the race hustlers got a lot of mileage out of that fear. I think that fear is starting to dissipate. And yet I still haven't seen many people, especially people who spent a lot of time claiming bias against them, coming out and making unequivocal statements against anti white hate. Like that's the one category. I haven't seen a lot of people say that like, no, hating whites is every bit is hating blacks or hating Jews or hating Asians or whatever, hating a group is immoral. I have seen very few people say that. And Barry Weiss is not big on that. Why? Like, why, why can't we just say that? It's all the same. It's all species of the same evil. Like that, that's my opinion. I think that's the Christian view. Someone correct me if, if I'm wrong, but it's certainly my opinion. And it makes it, it's a coherent argument, but I never see anybody say that. Well, I think, I think it's, a lot of that is programming that's been going on for a long time to, to the way a lot of people programmed is that to speak specifically in defense of white people as a group, to say anything positive about white people as a group is just automatically racist. And I think that this, and it's obviously, right. So it's absurd. But it's ingrained deeply. I mean, this goes back to I can remember this kind of conditioning in public school in the 90s. I went to public school. I can, I can, you know, we talk about wokeness like it just started in 2015. It didn't. And maybe it was worse in 2015 than it was in 1993. I can remember it in 1993. And I can remember being in school. And the only time that if we ever talked about, like, our ancestors, or the people who founded this country, or anything like that, it was, it was either in an expressly negative way, let's talk about all the terrible, terrible things they did. Or if we are going to acknowledge anything good they did, we have to couch it by first saying, well, here's a lot of bad things they did. They also did this, but also the bad. And so that's been going on for such a long time. But these were in retrospect, these were the first moves, these were the shock troops of a total takeover and change in the country. Like this was preparation for what we got under Biden, where it's just like, let's just totally transform the demographics of the country in four years. And then no one will feel free to say anything about it because racism. Right. I mean, it feels that way to me. I don't know if it was a strategy or intentional, but it was certainly a coordinated effort, maybe unconsciously, but like it wasn't an accident and it happened in every white majority country. And that's why there won't be any white majority countries really soon. And so like, what was that? I kind of wish I wasn't white in saying this because it's not self, it's first of all, it's curiosity. Like what the hell? You almost never see anything happen globally that's that similar in countries that aren't that similar. Like the United States is not that similar to the UK or Canada or New Zealand, Australia, but exactly the same thing happened in all of those places. Much worse in a lot of those places. Australia. Yeah. Oh, if you visit those places, it'll just break your heart because the people are broken. But in Canada, they are... Well, Canada is not even a country anymore. It's not a country. And they are overwhelmed with guilt. They are so... Well, they're murdering. The government is murdering tens of thousands of its citizens every year. They're almost all white. And now they're going to be doing it to kids. And by the way, under the Mades program, they're harvesting the organs. They're harvesting the organs from the Canadians they kill. So it's like the darkest thing. That's like, I would feel much freer and safer living in China than Canada. I can't believe I'm saying that. I actually love Canada. But that's happening and no one's saying a word about it. Yeah. Well, that in particular is one of those things that it's so dark and so depraved that when you talk about it, I think a lot of people, especially in America, they think you're making it up or you're exaggerating. I almost don't talk about it very often because I don't think anyone believes it. But I live right near Canada. And I know... And I'm like the only American who really sincerely loves Canada because it's just so beautiful, not the only, but not many people care about Canada. I do. So I know a lot of Canadians and that's absolutely... You'll look it up on the inner tubes. It's there. It's becoming one of the leading causes of death. Oh, it is one of the leading causes of death. Is assisted suicide? The government killing you and not because you have ALS, but because you can't pay your rent and then extending it to children and then harvesting the organs and the blood. I mean, I feel like there are a way bigger threat to the United States than Venezuela. I would be open to an argument in favor of invading and occupying Canada on human rights grounds. I'm not joking even a tiny bit. I think it's one of the darkest countries in the world. And it's such a great country with such great people. I don't know how we can allow this to happen without at least saying something about it. I'm not actually arguing for military action, but like maybe threatening it. They're way worse than Maduro. Way worse than Maduro. Way worse. So like, but I'm sure I'll be scolded for how can you say that because it's true. Yeah. Well, the MAID program alone is one of the most evil things happening in the world, period. Murdering your citizens and harvesting their organs on a greater scale than China does, really? And it's right there? I think one of the things that's happening, why are people ignoring this in America? Well, one thing it's people, it's like not your country. So you think it doesn't affect you. I think it does affect us because also, also like when you look at Canada and Europe and these guys, we're on the same kind of crazy train. They're just a few train cars up. And so, and so we that's why you got to pay attention to where they are because we're going to be there. So that's one thing. Yes, thank you. But I think that also for some conservatives in this country, there's some embarrassment about this because they, I think there are plenty of conservatives who've been at least indifferent to the issue of euthanasia and have even kind of, I've had many arguments with so-called conservatives over the years, not as much now because you see what's happening with MAID. But over the years with saying that, well, you know, because they get hung up on this, well, it's a personal choice. And they just think as conservatives, you just, you cannot oppose a personal choice. You just, you can't do it. And it's kind of a libertarian instinct gone way, hey, why, or my mind. And so there, but now you can see, now, those of us who have always been against euthanasia. So a desperate person has free will, is that what they're saying? And that's the problem. These are children. They don't know what they're talking about. And also, so those of us who were opposed to it, we have been saying for years, like, this is where it's going to go. Okay, yeah, right now, they are, and the other argument for euthanasia was, well, these are people who are in terrible pain. And they're a death store. They've only got days or at most weeks to live anyway. They're in horrible pain. You have no idea what it's like. And so they should be able to, they should be able to have a way out. And, and, and, like, from an emotional level, like, I get what you're saying, totally disagree with it. I get what you're saying. Our argument was, was a few arguments, but the big one was, okay, that's what we're doing. It's already evil to do that, even with someone who's terminally ill. They're doing that now, though, it will not stop there, because it never stops there. And once you give the state and the medical establishment the authority to kill, they will not stop. It always starts with the most justifiable version of it that they can muster, which is still totally unjustifiable, in my view. But they always start with the most justifiable version. And then next, it's like, okay, yeah, but yeah, we should include people who maybe they're not terminally ill, but they're chronically ill, and they're a lot of pain. And okay, now we've included them. Well, what about, what about mental illnesses? Well, what about this person over there? He's homeless. Yeah, he's not terminally ill, but his life has no meaning. And he's terrible. He lives on the street. And then, and then, you know, step, step, step, step, and eventually you're killing kids too. That's where it goes. We've seen this. And by the way, I grew, I'm older than you. And so they were still teaching this in schools when I was a kid. But the Nazi experiment began with euthanasia, famously. And it wasn't just on a small scale. It was like hundreds of thousands of people killed. And it began with the Down syndrome. Like how could your life be worth living? And then it wound up with Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Warsaw ghetto. Like this was a very clear, much written about continuum that began with murdering the weakest. And then again, you know, it ended where it famously ended, which was with mass murder. But Hitler was famous for his euthanasia program. He was also famous for like rounding people up and moving them to new places, like is now openly being discussed in Gaza. It's like the whole thing is so bonkers. And it just tells you that human evil is not specific to any group or time or place. It resides in every person. Every person is capable of this kind of behavior, justifying this kind of behavior. And we should all be on guard against it. But like, Hitler was very famous for euthanasia. Did you even learn that in school? No, certainly not. So funny things change. I was in first grade in 1975. And that was like a feature of it. You know, he was bad because he killed people on the basis of like their DNA. That's not allowed. And he killed the weakest, not allowed. And I guess they stopped teaching that. And the other thing is when you give, when you give the medical establishment, when you accept the idea that death is a treatment, you have opened the darkest door imaginable. Yes. And this is what's so frustrating is that what is often what are often decried as slippery slope arguments, people talk about, Oh, it's a fallacy slippery slope. First of all, slippery slope is not a fallacy. That's not a fallacious way of making an argument. All we're trying to show you is that, okay, here's a door you've opened. Okay, you've made an argument to justify something. And what I'm trying to tell you is that I can take that argument intact and use it to justify this thing over here that we both agree is horrific. And so if I can do that, what that tells me is that what should tell you is that either your argument is bad, or the thing you're arguing for is bad or both. And so the slippery slope thing is and and and that was the point with euthanasia. Once you allow the medical establishment to use death, murder as a form of medical treatment, you've completely flipped it on its head, because the whole point of medicine is to heal and treat. And so to avoid death and pain, like that's the point of it. And now you flipped it upside down. And you've said that death is the treatment. And so now you've just destroyed the whole thing. You've destroyed it. And this happened, I think that almost all obstetricians are required to commit abortion during their training. Yeah, well, that's right. So then you wind up with an entire medical core that's evil. Yeah. Yeah, like there are a lot of evil doctors, not just a few, but a lot. Evil and or I mean, this is the same thing. But they have to be very indifferent to human life, which is evil. So but did you realize I did I certainly didn't realize it really was the COVID Vax and the lack of COVID treat the intentional lack of COVID letting people die rather than treating their symptoms, which happened extensively across the United States. That sounds like these people aren't just wrong. They're like the worst people and the physicians are the worst people in the country. And for all the nurses, sweet nurses, I love nurses, sorry, who like stood up and like, this is wrong. Almost no doctors did a few, a few Mary Talley Bowden and people like that. But like not a lot. And I was just like, our doctors are evil, not just mistaken, they're bad. Do you feel that? I think a lot of them are. I mean, certainly obviously not all of them. Not all of them, right? Yeah, but like not 5%. Right, exactly. We're like 70%. Well, and how about also there's abortion, euthanasia, COVID, you've gone to. But then also something that I don't think we should just drop and move on from, because they're speaking of justice, there has not been justice for this, which is that for years, we had the entire medical establishment unanimously almost telling us that the best thing to do with a young boy who's a little bit confused about his identity is to castrate him. And they were doing that. They were doing that to thousands of kids. They were chopping the breasts. They're still doing it in some places. But it was certainly happening at scale for a long time. They're chopping the breasts off of 15 year old girls. And it was to your point, it was not just like a few doctors. There's a lot of doctors that were involved in it, a lot more doctors supported it, and a lot of other doctors who maybe didn't like it, but they didn't say a word. They did not speak up against it. This is some of the most insane barbaric Frankenstein bullshit that the world has ever seen, completely unjustifiable. No one can argue in defense of it. It's one of the craziest things that's ever happened in the history of the planet. It's hard to hear this even because you're right. Right. And it just went on. And the way that the advocates for this, the way that they argued in favor of it, because obviously they couldn't make any substantive argument for castrating kids, what they would always say is, well, look at all these medical establishments. Every single one of them is in favor of it. And they were right. They all were. All of them. What's so crazy is that female genital mutilation, which is universal in a few countries, I think Somalia is one of them, but was very frowned upon by feminists and also by me as a lover of women. And it was a feature of debate on cable news shows, like most of my life as a cable news debater, FGM. We do a segment on FGM or whatever. Can you believe they're doing this? And nobody would defend it. We'd look far and wide. Who will defend female genital, a clitoractomy? Who would defend that? And our bookers tried really hard, but there weren't many. All of a sudden, no one mentioned it again. And that's because they started doing it. And it's just a reminder that you don't have to be Somalia or a Nazi or any specific group to participate in evil. Like this is a human problem. And the second they stop talking about how what other people did is bad, it's probably a tip that they're going to start doing it themselves, right? And it's also a lesson that it's very easy I mean, look, nobody wants to admit it now. But at the height of the trans madness, and I don't mean to talk about it totally in the past tense, like it's over, it's not. But we are past the height of it. It feels that. Thank God. But at the height of it, no one wants to admit it now. But almost everyone on the left supported it vocally so. And most people on the right did, you know, told themselves or insisted that it's not worth saying anything about it's not that big of a deal. Totally right. That's exactly right. This is a this is a cultural war side show. And so what that tells us is that it's actually very easy for people to convince themselves to go along with the worst evils that are even conceivable. No, it's totally right. It's very easy to convince yourself and partisanship is not a good guide to that. I can as you just said yourself, a lot of people that are on our side, like, I don't want to deal with that. Yeah, it's it's it's well, because what you have are I mean, usually, this is not how it always works out. But you've got the really evil thing being promoted facilitated by the left, whether it's abortion or euthanasia, whatever else. And then you've got cowardice on the right, um, refusing to speak up against it, until it's very safe to do so, you know, and then and then everybody does. And that's why it's also been on the trans issue. It's been interesting over the last like year, year and a half to have people coming out of the woodwork, like very, very boldly saying, you know, men, men shouldn't be in women's sports. Like, yeah, thanks for that. Like, I could have we could have used that six years ago. Well, because this was one of those issues was you and a few other people just changed it. It wasn't Congress is you made your movie. And you wouldn't stop talking about it. And there were a few others, but they were all in the commentary. It they were all like in the pundit class, it was not. There was no, like US senator who led the charge against this. Some followed in the end, but it came from outside the system, I guess is what I'm saying. Right. So that kind of shows, among other things that the commentary, it which is insufferable, I took even as I say this part of it, does matter matters, actually, the opinions you see on all these podcasts, like they over time do change things, clearly. So to circle back to where we began, how is this current conflict, the intro right conflict resolved? I don't I don't know. I, I, if I knew how to do it, I would do it. If I if I knew how to solve it, if I knew how to bridge the divide and get everyone on the same side again, I would do it. I've tried in my own way. I know I have not been successful. I have tried. You're like the last person with a foot in each world. It's interesting. And I value that. Like this, this isn't for me. This is what people have to understand. I try to take it personally, the insults that I mean, when you're in this world, you get insulted all the time and you do. You have to you have to have thick skin. There are certain attacks against me that I should not admit this, but I will that do bother me. Like they do. Like what? Okay, you opened it. You opened the door. So well, charges of well, when people say things that just aren't true, like, and I have this all the time, and it's the one thing I should be the most used to, I guess, but it just pisses me off. Really? It does because I'm the opposite. It's only the true attacks that upset me. I don't know. Yeah, it shouldn't. But when people are, I see someone, you know, make a claim, especially if it's someone, it doesn't have to be, but especially if it's someone who I kind of know. And yeah, it's not. But saying something that's not true, you're ascribing motives to me that it's just, it's so it's just the exact opposite of what is actually true. And you're not even asking me, you're not reaching out, you're not giving me a chance to speak for myself. Who did that to you? And I, here's the thing, I talked about loyalty before. I'm so devoted to it that I have people I consider friends who have been attacking me publicly. And I still don't want to attack. Welcome to my world. I still don't want to do you feel like there's a connection between the degree to which you've helped someone and the vehemence of the attack. I've noticed that in just in my life, I'm not whining and I agree with you, it's I hate why I want being attacked, I'm being threatened, someone shot at my house, like, I'm never going to say that. Okay, though it's true. But I have noticed that a lot of people I've helped are like on the front lines of attacking me or calling me names, they know, aren't true, Nazi. And I feel like there's a connection, it's not random. It's like, if you've helped someone, maybe they resent you for it. I don't know. Yeah, there might be some of that. I mean, there's a lot of things. First of all, everybody's very emotional. Like, yeah, and I try to keep that in mind, too. People, I try not to do the thing that pisses me off so much people do to me, which is ascribing motives and saying, well, you're really doing this because of this. And I think sometimes people do, a lot of people do have ulterior motives, clearly. And people are scheming and they're playing games. And also, by the way, we live in a space like this is a business. And people do this for a living. And so there's also just competitiveness. No, it's right. And that happens. But then at the same time, people also get just pissed off and they get emotional. Well, that's definitely true. And there's and that's happening on all. So I recognize that like some of the, so that's why some of the some of the people that go after me publicly and be like, consider friends. And I'm like, you have my phone number, you can call me and you're not. And I try to understand like I do my maybe it's for my own sanity. I try to be as charitable as possible and think like, well, they're just they're wrong, but they're really angry. And they've got this whole story about me that's not correct. But that that's what's happening. They're just pissed off. And I've been pissed off before and said things I regret. So I think I think a lot of that's happened to go back to the question of what to do about it. Well, I guess I guess I don't know why I'm going back to it because I don't have the answer. But I think the only thing that can be done is for all of us, if you're on the right, to go back to some of the basics that we talked about at the beginning of the conversation, like what is it that we want? What is it that we actually want? What's the real catechism here? What does it mean to be on the right? Exactly. What what are we? It's the classic question about conservatives. What are you trying to conserve? It's a good question. You should be able to answer that. You should be able to answer that. What are you trying to conserve? And everybody's asked themselves that and come up with an answer. Come up with write your list, write it out if you have to whatever. Come up with your list. I'm going to do this. This is my this is my calling right here. And and everyone should have their list. And then we should compare notes. And if our lists match up like we want the same things, we're trying to conserve and preserve the same things, then the only way forward is is with that is for us to realize that like, let's let's reorient towards that. Make make that the goal. And and remember that even when we disagree, we're gonna have disagreements. But we're only disagreeing about how to do this thing that we both want done. And and and I think that's the way forward. Now on the other hand, maybe you start looking at your list, and you and you realize that I actually don't even want the same things as these as these people. Okay, well, then we're not on the same side. And that's very clarifying, too. I think that there are people feel that's happening in my mind. I'm like, I we don't have anything in common. Actually, I thought we did, but we don't. Is that happening to you? I there are certainly some of that. I think that there are definitely people who just want don't don't don't want the same things at all. They don't have the same fundamental goals. I think that's certainly happening. And that's part that's part of the clarifying that's part of the bad or good. Well, clarity is good. Yeah, clear. I think I think we need clarity. But for me, like I said, the only person and I believe this holy, I try to live by it. The only person who can speak to your intentions is you the only person who can tell anyone what's in your mind is you. And so if someone says to me, that's why I try to interview people, right? So exactly, you're allowed to speak for yourself. And so I've given my list of what it is that I want to conserve and preserve. Can you just can you in an abbreviated form just run through it really quick one more time? Because I think I agreed with it. Abbreviated is always in trouble for me. But no, you don't have to abbreviate it. We just say it again. Like, what are the things you're saying there's left, right, what even I don't even know what that means anymore. But like, people who share your values believe what? They believe in objective truth. Yeah. Okay, they believe in truth. Number one, that there is a truth. Okay, I'm going to write this down. And hold on, hold on now. Okay, objective truth. Yeah, objective truth. Whether or not there, can I just add one caveat? I'm not always convinced I know what the objective truth is. I've certainly been wrong. But I know it exists. Right, exactly. And that's exactly the point. We can disagree about what the truth is, we're going to have those disagreements. Right. But we have to be able to agree that there is a truth, right, to begin with. And when you're talking to someone as a moral relativist, they're on the left, you can't even agree on that. So there's no conversation to be had. We cannot even have a conversation. That's the problem. That's our problem in our culture. And even above the truth, the reason why there's an objective truth is that there is a, there is God, the God, that there is a God, there is God. And and he has designed the universe and everything and everybody in it. And that's the source, that's the wellspring of truth. You know, that's why there is a truth, because God designed it a certain way. And so it is like that's the fundamental bare bones truth is that God has designed it this way. This is that this is God's universe. And that is the truth. So, so I think I think that's number one. Yeah, that's number one. And then what are we trying everything flows from that? Everything flows from that. What are we trying? But in America, as American conservatives, what are we trying to conserve? We're trying to conserve American identity, our national identity. We're trying to conserve the institution of the family. Which is the foundation of the country and of civilization. We're trying to conserve the institution of the marriage, which is the foundation of the family. So this is the foundation of the foundation. which is the foundation of American identity. Right. And we're trying to conserve all those things. And then at a broader level, we're trying to conserve Western civilization itself. Which grows from, so if you were to sum it up, you could say objective truth derived from a belief that this is all created. We are not the creators. Exactly. And the family, the family unit, husband, wife, children, which is the basis of all human civilization. So objective truth family. Yeah, I think I think that's if I were writing this on my hand for the test. Okay. Yeah. Probably in here so the teacher couldn't see it, it would just be objective truth family. Yeah. And I would also put national identity for, we're talking about American conservatives, which is what we're talking about. But then the question goes, like, what's that? Yeah. Well, that's a and that's also a debate in a sense. I think there are some basic things. But but but again, that's like, okay, as long as we agree that we need one that we need that we yeah, we cannot. So we have a culture, right, we need to have a culture and multiculturalism cannot be the cult that's not a culture. That's there has to be a unifying set of beliefs or customs that keep the country from breaking apart. Otherwise, it will break apart. So and that's the point. So the things there, if we, if someone looks at that, like, that's I'm speaking for myself and not just myself, I think a lot, but but that's, that's my North Star. And if you look at that, and you say, well, I want the same things like I saw I'm fighting for, then you are on my side period, like we we are on the same side. And we'll have a lot of arguments again, about how to do that, how to achieve that. Well, a lot of arguments about it. And those could be like fruitful arguments. Those don't have to be angry, nasty, personal arguments. They could just be discussions, you know, as as as adults. And we'll do that. But we're on the same side. However, if you look at that, and you say, you know, well, I don't need I don't believe in any of that. Like, I don't, I don't believe in God. I don't like truth, you know, we all have our own truth. The family, I think the family is like, you know, marriage doesn't matter, we don't need the family. And a lot of people feel that way. So fine, you're allowed to feel that way. We're not on the same side at all. No matter what else you believe. I and then I might agree with you on that you might go on and from there and say, yeah, but I really think that gun rights are important. And I think we need to restrict immigration. And I want to abolish the income tax or whatever. I'd agree with you on those points, but we're not fundamentally on the same side. It's so smart. I don't want to blow anyone's mind. But I, you know, travel a lot, talk to people for a living, you would be amazed by the people I know who agree with you vehemently on and sincerely on those two points. And they're not all on the so on the right at all, which is kind of interesting. So it does feel like this is there's like a true realignment happening now. I just know in my own life, the people who reach out to me, in some cases are people you would expect in some cases, they're not all people you would expect. And they're just they're hearing the same music, and they're motivated by the same impulses. And that is one of belief that we are living in a world we didn't create. These rules aren't ours. It's basically the nature argument, like you can't ignore nature because you're not in charge of it. You cannot ignore natural law because you didn't make it, because God made it a and b. In the end, your only true protection is your family and your deepest connection is to your family. And that needs to be protected above all, which I think is a variety of what you were just saying. The people who reach out to me who who believe that, man, it's, it would blow your mind. So I guess what I would say is, it feels like a lot of our politics is artificial. It's inorganic. It was these divisions in some cases are, you know, are real. In some cases, they were created in order to get us to not see that we have a lot in common with other people. Does that make sense? I think so. Look, and if someone, the words left and right are labels that we put on things. Well, people have always said that, but I never really believed it. I was like, that's bullshit. But it's just it's a way of categorizing and organizing things so we can speak about them coherently. But sometimes the labels that we use, you know, we have to we have to shift it over. There might be people who so but like anyone who you've talked to who we would say is on the left who agrees with all that. Well, then I would say they're not on the left. Why agree? Well, they might they might they might even think they still are, but they're not. And so they're they're they're over on this side. And you can kind of call it whatever you want. I'm saying right conservative. We could come up with any team team name we want. I guess what I'm saying is that your side is bigger than you think it is. For the during the when we're talking about the trans issue. And I've sort of talked about the teams, what I've come to what I've come to call the side that's against all the trans madness, is team sanity, you know, yeah, it's just we're for sanity, like on this issue, we're sane people. And fully acknowledging that on that issue, there were people who I don't agree with on like anything else, but are sane on this, I can think of some of them. I used to have this woman on. Oh, I really liked her. I don't think she ever liked me at all. I can't remember her name. She was a radical lesbian feminist. And every she would always come into the studio on the trans issue years ago. And she was like, I could I could hear her thinking I can't believe I'm in the same room with this monster. But we were so aligned on it. And I always wondered like, why did she care? So I mean, she we must have been more aligned than either of us realized if she cared that much about it. Right. You must have dealt with a million people like this. Yeah. Yeah. And this is a conversation I would have sometimes with the because it's very strange bedfills. I would find myself aligned on that issue with some feminists like left far left feminists. But the radical ones. Yeah. But the point I would try to make to them, I think mostly unsuccessfully is that, okay, if you if we agree on this, that I think like if you can see the truth on this, then I think we should agree on a lot more, you know, I think that's my instinct, too. Right. What would they say? Well, for me, I'm not the guy to make an argument to feminists. There might be someone who can be kind of the I think you get converted few Mount Walsh. I don't know. It's my track record would say otherwise. But but the point is that like, the argument I would make to them is that actually, I know you call yourself a feminist. The reason why we have this problem is because of feminism. Feminism is actually the root of this problem. And so if you agree with me on this, then I think really you are critiquing feminism. So you're not a feminist. Get it together, come over here. And they didn't find that that was that was mansplaining. You know, they weren't that was definitely they weren't like ready to run to the patriarchy after that. No, no, that's a shame. So here's my last question. And again, it begins where we began, which is the fact that you're like at the center of all of this, I really do think you're the last person on the right, you know, the official, you know, well known official podcast, a right who has, you know, a foot in two camps. And so it's just the pressure on you. I've just noticed it has been almost unbelievable. And you've bore up under it. It went so impressively. But how do you keep yourself from becoming a hater? When you're under just relentless assault, and not just your views, but your motives, your character, when people you really like or your friends are denouncing you, and most people live an entire lifetime without that experience. It's an unusual experience. And it can drive some totally crazy, like they become foaming at the mouth haters. How have you avoided that? Maybe the honest answer is I have not avoided it. Well, but I think that I mean, look, the real the correct answer is prayer. You know, you have to have a rich prayer life. Yes. And I do have a prayer life. I don't think it's as rich as it should be. I think and I think that I think like a lot of people, you kind of go through waves, I go through waves. And then I go through, here's what happens with me. And I think it's probably relatable is that when you're really frustrated and stressed out and things are not really working out how you want them to, your kind of prayer life can dry up too. And it's starting because that starts feeling everything just starts feeling kind of dry. Everything starts feeling like nothing's working. No one's listening. You feel frustrated. No one in your life is like hearing what you're saying. You start to feel like God is not hearing you either. And it's just this kind of frustration. And then it's snowballs, you know, and then it becomes a it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because now everything's feeling, everything feels kind of dried up and frustrated. And so that's what happens with your prayer life. And then everything gets worse because of that. And so those are the moments where you have to be very intentional and say, I'm really annoyed and frustrated. I don't feel like praying. I don't even know if God's listening. He's always listening, but in a frustrated moment, you feel like he's not. And that's when you have to realize that and then reorient yourself and become, you know, and for me, when I have those moments, I've found that just being more structured, like sometimes you have to, like anything in life that is good, you have to kind of force yourself to do it. Sometimes you have to get into a habit. What's your structure if you don't mind? Well, I think there's, you set up a time for prayer in the morning, like you set up just times. This is my, this is my time when I'm going to pray, you know? And hopefully it's multiple times a day. But, and when you have a really rich prayer life and you're in a good flow, it's like you're in a constant prayer. It's like, it's a constant, it's a constant state of going to God, even if you're not on your knees. Rejoice in everything, never stop praying. Yeah. And I think that, you know, things like your physical posture when you're praying, that can matter. And especially if you're going through a dry spell in your prayer life, I think like actually kneeling, being on your knees, does matter. And you can pray without being on your knees, but it can kind of help to orient you in the right way. And it's kind of your body telling your mind something, which is that you are submitting yourself, like you're on your knees, you are submitting yourself to a power that is greater than you. That's why you're doing this. And so you're reminding yourself that there's someone greater than you who you are appealing to. And so I think stuff like that can, can help also. How much time do you spend on X? Too much. Meaning? Like way too much. I don't know. What effect does that have? Not, not good. I mean, it's also hard for me because it's my job. And not like my job, like there's a, I have to punch in the clock and go on X. But part of the job is to be clued in. And I'm also creating content every day. I do a show five days, four days a week now. And so this is where the conversation is happening. This is where all the content, all the sort of content is all the things I want to talk about. I also use it as kind of a, you know, it's, it's like, I'll start a conversation on X and then I'll talk about it on the show. And it's just kind of this feeds off of each other thing. But the problem, and all that is good, and I'm glad that it's there for that reason, but the problem is this stuff sucks you in. Like it just sucks you in. And, Because I bet I'm just guessing you're not into say pornography or cocaine or, I don't know. Right. Zero percent. I knew that. Zero percent. So like for a man like you, you're, you know, you don't, you're not ruled by your addictions, but do you feel like X? Well, it's weird. Here's the weird thing for me. It, the amount of time I spend on it sometimes would seem like an addict. However, when I go on vacation and I say, I'm leaving, I'm not going to be doing a show. I'm, I'm, I'm out of the, I'm going to be out of the, I'm not paying attention to anything. Then I go on vacation. I put the phone down. I have zero desire to pick it up. I don't even find myself like, ah, I got to find out what's happening. I put it down. I'm on vacation. I have no desire. In fact, it's the opposite. When I come back, I have to force myself to like get into this again. And I'm also, it's, it's, it's ridiculous. I'm like forcing myself to tweak because I got to get into the flow to, to do the job. And so that tells me it's not really an addiction. It's something even worse, I guess, because when I have the chance to walk away from it, I so eagerly do. It's like my soul telling me like you got, this, this is what I actually long for is not this. I think that's a really good sign. I think it's a good sign. Do you feel like when you, I'll tell you, I feel when I go on it, because I know so many of the people who are tweeting their opinions, it's like seeing all of your acquaintances naked. I feel like people reveal so much about themselves and it's like, wow, you don't look great naked. I mean, I never really thought about you naked, but now that I can see it, you should put some clothes back on. That's the feeling I have every time I go on there. That is a, that's, that's an interesting way of putting it. And I think that's true. I mean, that's, it used to be right if you were like a prominent person in some field, if you ever gave your opinions publicly, depending on the field, you might never give your opinion publicly. But if you ever did, it was like in a structured, it was a very intentional kind of way. And I try and stick to that. And now, and now we have, it used to be like, it's hard for people for kids these days to realize this, but it used to be that we would have all these like famous people and celebrities. And most of them, we never knew what they thought about anything. We had no clue what they thought. We didn't even know what their personalities were. We only saw them because they were thrown off football or because they were acting in a thing or whatever. And now, yeah, we just know everyone's opinion up to date on every person involved. So whoever thought that, I mean, if you told me 10 years ago that like all the people in charge were thoroughly banal and conventional at best, they had nothing interesting to say. They never thought about anything ever. Like Hillary Clinton had not a single thought in her head. And that some guy called Orrin McIntyre, whoever that is, would turn out to be, you know, or you or like all these people who 10 years ago were not, they're very far from what we might think of as a public intellectual, all of a sudden they're purely through the force of their ideas and the clarity of their expression, we're kind of defining the terms. That is a huge change. It's totally disempowered the Puba class. And it's given rise to this like, genuinely interesting bubbling conversation, like at best. Do you feel that? Yeah, I do. Which is why, I mean, we talk about social media, we talk about X and I don't want to talk as though I think it's a overall, like nothing but a negative because I do think it allows- Oh, total. No, no, it's a mixed blessing for sure. Yeah. So and that is true. Like it allows and it obviously has created a situation where the institutions that used to control the conversation completely now don't control it at all. And- They're like, they've shown that they're just not impressive that like in the true and fabled marketplace of ideas, they're like a rummage sale, actually. Yeah, they have nothing to say. But like who would buy that crap? It's just not, once we see it in its entirety, once the mystique has been stripped away, they have nothing to offer. Like they're just totally pedestrian. And then these, I mean, do you ever see random Twitter accounts? You have no idea who this is. It's not someone who's anyone's ever heard of making a point that's so profound that like you can't get it out of your head. Does that ever happen to you? Oh, definitely. I was just thinking, I saw, I don't remember who the guy was, but yeah, I read it, I read a tweet a couple of days ago and it was this lengthy, like really well written analysis of something I can't even remember. But it's like a random Twitter account. I don't know who that guy is. Like what? And in a way, it's kind of sad because I read that, I'm like, well, I don't know, this guy's a philosopher, he should be in a different age. No, but affirmative action has kept them all out. So this is what, this is where they went. So you're like, well, you know, we don't have a meritocracy anymore and the smartest, most impressive people literally can't get jobs or grants or into college. So like, what are they doing? And they're sitting- tweeting. Yeah, tweeting these like morsels of incredible wisdom in some cases. No, truly. Yeah. And the, but this is, as I said, mixed blessing. The problem is that in between the morsels of great wisdom, you've got nothing but just slop and all this, right? And so the best thing we can do is things like keep your prayer life alive and control, you have to have self-control in how you interact with this. One of the worst things, and everyone does this, I do it, I think it's the worst habit that almost everyone has now. I'm sure I do it too then. Which is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is check your phone. I don't do that. Well, then you're in better shape than I am and a lot of people. Never. That's like having blueberry pancakes for breakfast, which was a habit that was very hard for me to break. But once I did it, I realized that framed my whole day in the wrong way. If you're starting the day with blueberry pancakes, you can't get past it. Everything in your day is defined by blueberry pancakes. Why? Because you're longing for the- Yeah, you're hungry all day. You feel shitty. You're lethargic. Just don't eat till noon and everything is better. But I grew up in a blueberry pancake world, like 100%. Blueberry pancakes and a cigarette. And that's not a good way to start the day. And I feel like social media are even worse than that. Just do the cigarette. Don't do the pancakes. That is- I can't say this. That is still a great way to start the day. I don't care what anybody says. It's just a fact. Yeah. But I said- But whatever. Sorry. I'm totally kidding. The starting the day by looking at your phone is so horrifically bad. I do it all the time. But actually? I do. I shouldn't. That's like the one thing you can't just don't do. That's easy. Just like- because you use it as your alarm, right? Yeah. My phone. Yeah. Of course. Everybody does. I do too. We don't allow phone usage in the bedroom except for the alarm. That's like ironclad rule. Just get up. Get a cup of coffee. Get your face in a Bible or just stare out the window. Kiss your dogs. Anything but that. I totally agree. In fact, just this morning, I woke up. First thing I did is I checked my phone. Oh. And I went on X. And it was just in my feet. It just happened. Like the first thing I read, I just opened my eyes 30 seconds ago. The first thing I read was like in my feet, something popped up and it was like, Matt Walsh is a coward. I'm starting my day with that. Like the first thing that enters my eyeballs. What are you doing? I don't know. And then I put my phone down like, why did I do that? Why not be there? We're in a hotel room though, right? In a hotel room. Because there's no chick there. That's why it's so important to be married. That is- yeah, that's true also. Right? And there's no kids. Totally. Yeah. Matt Walsh, some of us, probably not a huge group, but some of us are just getting really appreciate what you're doing and your clear thinking and your self-control, and especially your summation of what actually matters. So thank you very much. You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad, but we're not in charge of it. So we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families. When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency or gold. Gold survives. 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