Lovecast Extra: Sex and...Television?

We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026. Sometimes even I don't know where to go for advice, which is why I recommend checking out How To, the long-standing advice show, and 2026 Ambi Award-nominated Best Personal Growth podcast. It's hosted by my friend and award-winning journalist Mike Peska. You might be familiar with Mike's work on the just the longest running daily news podcast. Each week on How To, Mike tackles a listener question, including one of mine, ranging from mental health and finance to relationships and beyond. And he gets help from world-class experts who actually know what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or the awkward silence or the stairs. No question is too big or too specific. I was happy again to appear in a recent episode of How To, focused on the topic of how to emigrate as a threpple. How To is a great companion to our show and you will learn something new listening to How To. I always learn something new every time I listen to Mike. So follow How To with Mike Peska on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and let him know the Lovecasts send you. You're listening to Sex and Television at Savage.Love. And television. Everybody, if you can hear the sound of my voice, you are a Magnum sub or you're a micro listener. We're going to make this episode of Sex and Television, not Sex and Politics this time, Sex and Television available to all of our listeners. Claire Perlman has been a guest on the Lovecast before she is a certified sex therapist based in the Bay Area. Claire and I, after hitting it off on the Lovecast, have been getting together on Instagram Live every once in a while to talk about the TV shows we're watching. Mostly we've talked about Hunting Wives, which is a terrible show with a lot of crazy sex scenes. We had such a blast talking about Hunting Wives that I knew I wanted to get together with Claire for an open-ended, go-deep, long-ass conversation about the television show. Everybody is talking about right now. Yes, heated rivalry. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Claire, but a quick spoiler alert before we start. If you have not yet watched the show, which Nancy has not yet watched, there are spoilers ahead. So if you're going to watch, go watch the show. Don't listen to this first. I don't even think this will make sense. My conversation with Claire will make sense to you if you have not yet watched the show. All right, here is me and Claire on Shane and Ilya. Claire Perlman, queer Jewish certified sex therapist based in the Bay Area. She's sex-clarified on Instagram and other social media platforms. She's who I turn to whenever closet cases are making out in front of large plate glass windows. Claire and I had a couple of IG lives where we talked about Hunter Wives, which seemed to be the sexy fucking queer show of 2025, but it was supplanted at the end of the year by heated rivalry, which like Hunter Wives features in closet cases making out in front of large plate glass windows, which is a terrible wannabe closeted strategy that we can get to. But I wanted to talk about heated rivalry with Claire. Everybody in the world has seen this show. Everybody in the world is talking about this show. It is the most popular show of 2025, more viewed on HBO Max or whatever the fuck they're calling it now than any other show basically ever. It's racking up just insane numbers created by Jacob Tierney based on the book by Rachel Reed. Rachel Reed, the book game changer. Oh, game changer. By Rachel Reed, starring Connor Story and Hudson Williams. I'm so terrible with names. I actually opened the IMDB, so it would be in front of me, but it's not in front of me now. And Claire only just watched it. So Claire has fresh eyes, unheeded rivalry. I have watched it three times. Oh, I was going to ask. I was going to ask. Also, thank you for having me this talking about media and sex is my favorite fucking thing. Well, thank you for being had. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's my pleasure. I am on my second watch through. I'm halfway through my second watch through because I was traveling when all of this went down. And so I didn't get a chance to access my HBO Max, but then I came home and immediately binged all of it. And it's amazing. It is amazing. And I wanted to have you on. I wanted to talk about it more and at length in a way that I can't on the Lovecast with a regular guest segment, in part because it was already a sensation when the first three episodes were out and I had Mike Peska from the Gist on and he's a sports guy and he writes about sports. He's written books about sports. He talked about if it was like actual real hockey, right? Yeah. We talked a lot about the hockey. Yeah. And like I talked a little bit about the fucking of it, but the show really, the first two episodes are very sexy. Having rewatched them, there's a lot going on that feeds into the last few episodes, which are devastating, but it was easy to just see the shows as kind of like sensationalistic, sexy, romp or trifle. If you'd only seen the first three episodes, the last three episodes, because in a way your guard was lowered, your expectations were lowered by the first three episodes. The last three episodes just got you. And I wanted to be able to talk about he'd rather, we're again, having now seen the whole thing. I, yeah, I feel very lucky that I was able to watch it in just one full go because I hadn't been keeping up with it on time, but it's, it is heartbreakingly beautiful. But I, I was hooked at episode three, the Scott and Kip storyline. That, that one broke me. That I was like, I didn't quite, I wasn't fully pulled into Ilya and Shane the first two episodes. And I, I was kind of like, I knew it was a sensation. I wasn't under like totally sure what was going on. I was like, okay, they're like kind of missing each other. It's, you know, beautiful. It's erotic. It's closeted. Where are we going with this? Like obviously it's going to end in, you know, someone dying or like never coming out. Like that was what, you know, my fear always in doing romance, doomed romance, doomed. Yes. Yes. Because if you haven't, I mean, you'd have to be under a rock to know this by now. Ilya and Shane are the number one and two rookie NHL draft picks in like 2012. They have a couple of interactions that are kind of charged. And then like months go by before they have another opportunity to be together. And Shane or Ilya ends up orchestrating a moment where it's just the two of them together to film a commercial. And then it gets crazy. And so there's a long slow build chronologically to them fucking just because they don't have the opportunity. But in the course of the show, it's 15 minutes until they're fucking. And that reading now about how the show was created, and this is kind of what I want to talk to you about. It was like all the queer ankles on it. There are people out there claiming it's a sapphic story. There are some dumb gay men out there claiming that because a straight woman, or I think she's a straight woman, but a woman wrote it, that it's not actually authentically gay men being represented. It's this projection, this female fantasy of gay men. There's also women saying, so I want to talk about those two. I also want to talk about how there's women saying that this is for women by women, and which I think is a wild take. And then there's also the biracial take that I've seen a lot on social media. Not quite. Well, there's a biracial in that people will say that this is a gay love story. They are having gay sex. And so maybe a gay guy, a bi guy and gay sex, you can round that up to a gay love story. And we don't know how Ilya will be identifying five years from now. There are a lot of bi people who identify as, I know, bisexual women who identify as dykes culturally. And sort of there's a lot of rounding up, I think, that happens with sexual identity. And so who knows, maybe it'll be a gay love story. But the biphobic accusations leveled against Shane is also something you're bi that I want to talk with you about specifically and unpack what that means. Yeah. But first, oh my God, yeah, I'm so excited to get to talk about it. Where do we start? I don't know. I just watched the Scott Kipp episode again last night. And I just think it's so fucking powerful. And also, I think it's wild. I know you're giving me the no, I think it's wild that Kipp also gets to be this hot. Why can't there be at least one semi-non-totally ripped dude on the show? This is the one unforced error I feel was made. The actor who plays Kipp is great. I have no beef with his performance. I'm not, no shade on the actor who portrays Kipp. But like in the lead couple, you have these two athletes. Right. And in the secondary couple, Kipp and Scott. Scott, I'm so bad with names. In the secondary couple, you have like one of the world's top hockey stars. He's on the cover of the New York Post. He's older than Shane and Ilya. And he's a closeted gay man who falls for a barista who works in a coffee shop or a smoothie shop in New York City and is applying to go to grad school in art. And I just thought, okay, so you've got mask for mask in the lead couple. You've got two jocks going at it. In the secondary couple, you had an opportunity for a different kind of diversity, which is the jock who's attracted to the twink, to a femmier guy. And one of the problems for Scott is Scott is closeted. And one of the problems for Kipp is that he can't be openly with Scott. And I just felt like there was so much that could have been mined from Kipp being portrayed by an actor who read gay. The guy who plays Kipp looks like he works in a gym, not like he's going to art school. Right. He does look like he works in a gym. I feel like it could have been much more like another layer if just being seen out in public with Kipp for Scott was to out himself with the casting as it stands and like no beef of the poor, months, great performance, very moved, especially in episode five by the guy who played Kipp. As it stands, like Scott could have passed Kipp off as a buddy from the gym or a personal trainer working on like some new hamstring thing with for him. Like the closet, I thought it would have been much more, much more tense if just standing next to Kipp out at Scott in a way that he was uncomfortable with because you do have Kipp's friends picking up on the fact that like Scott won't be seen in public with Kipp. And I'm like, why won't he be seen in public with Kipp? And it would have been much more legible if Kipp was a six foot tall, 150 pound, blue haired, piercings could have been played by, you know, it's a smoothie shop in New York City and he's an art student, could have been played by a person of color. Like there was places that could have gone that casting of Kipp. Yeah, there also could have been body diversity with that. He could have been a fucking rail thin skinny twink, like some, some mask jockey guys like other jockey guys and some mask jockey guys like the opposite of who they are. Right. I also think he could have been a bigger person. And like, I mean, I, I don't think this dude that is gobbling up in his words, all of the shifts at the smoothie shop actually has that much time to go to the gym. No, no. He was so ripped. I was just like, I arguably, I think he might have been one of the more ripped ones. He was more ripped than Hollinert. And that's what I was shocked by. I was like, okay, that was a choice. I loved his acting and I love their love story, but I was like, I think that is the least realistic part of this. And I agree that he did, he could have just been passed off as like a buddy. And I like, I, right. He doesn't read. Like I've never seen an art student who looked like that ever, ever, ever, ever. And like, maybe I'm telling on myself, everybody knows I like lanky, shaggy-haired, twinkie boys. So maybe I'm just telling on myself here, but like, he should have been a lanky, shaggy-haired, twinkie art student, starving artist, not somebody who like lives on protein powder and eats 15 chicken breasts today. Right, right. Yeah. I did think that was very interesting. But I also, I mean, the, when the Scott Kipp episode was introduced, I didn't understand why that was going to be so important until the, as people are saying, like the six minutes of the, the, them winning the cup, Scott's team winning the cup, and then bringing Kipp down and the whole twisting of the camera, where it feels like everyone's there all at once was so fucking beautiful. And so like having now watched the show three times through, it is so layered. There are so, it really rewards a second and third viewing because you begin to notice things. Yeah. And layers to the depth of emotion, but just also what you're taking in, but not quite consciously perceiving. And what plays on Scott's face, all the other athletes after his team wins the cup, their families pour onto the ice. They have people, right. And he has no family. He hasn't allowed himself to have any people. Right. And he's got one person there that he's holding at arm's length that he brings down. And like, he just caches all his chips in at that moment. Yeah. Yeah. And like, could potentially be throwing his career away. But he also is at the, he also is at the end of his career. Right. I mean, he, he accomplished the thing that he had been looking towards accomplishing. I noticed that he had no people when he invites Kipp to come to his first game. He just, his like home game or whatever, when he says, I have two tickets, no one's taking them. And my first thought was, why does the, this extremely famous hockey player who's the captain of his team has done really well? This is his whole life have absolutely no one to give these two tickets to. He's going to give it to this random barista guy and Elena. And that to me already read, I don't have people. And so I think that they, they foreshadow that in the beginning, even though it's like a, an easy, oh yeah, Kipp can come to my game or whatever. But I think that that is already telling Scott doesn't have his people and he's desperate. I think I have to jump into a time machine right now and say, Hey, everybody's spoiler alert. This conversation is going to be packed with spoilers, but you had to know everyone who's listening to this has to have seen this already. They have seen it multiple times, I bet. Let's talk about Bioracer and Bifobia. Where is the Bioracer charge coming from? And is it the same as the Bifobia charge? So I think the Bioracer charge, I spend a good amount of time on threads and people, people have a lot of opinions, but the Bioracer charge is that people are calling it a gay hockey show, as you said, and bi people are very, very upset about that. I, as a bi person who is very like also obsessed with Bioracer, something in me is like not, I don't feel that offended by people calling this a gay hockey show. Like, Okay, there are four leads, three of them are, three of the lead characters are gay men. Right. There's tons of gay sex. I think we can round that up. It's like, if there's four guys standing in a gay bar or four guys on the dance floor and three of them are gay and one of them is bi, it's still like a fucking gay bar. It's still a gay hockey show. Right. Like I, I just think that like when you are, you, you could, anyone gets to decide how they want to talk about their bisexuality, right? But when I am hooking up with another female bodied person or dating another female bodied person, I don't say like, Hey, I'm in a bi relationship. I often say I'm in a queer relationship. I'm in a sapphic relationship. I'm in a lesbian relationship. Like those are the things that, that I used to describe it. And often it's so that people understand what I'm saying. And like all of my relationships are bi relationships, right? All of them are queer relationships, no matter who I'm with. But I, I want people to understand immediately what I am talking about. And so if I'm talking about my girlfriend, I'm going to talk about my lesbian relationship, my sapphic relationship. And in the same way that I feel like if Ilya wants to talk about Shane in that way, he might say his boyfriend, which automatically assumes a gay relationship, right? Like it, I don't know. I, I think it's a little bit, we're getting a little bit in the weeds around it. I think what you're saying there is that there's a little elasticity in the term lesbian or gay. There's the identity for a gay man or a lesbian. There's also it is a descriptor or an adjective to describe a relationship. And a bi person can be in a lesbian relationship and a bi guy can be in a gay relationship. In that instance, it means the same sex Exactly. relationship. Exactly. It blows my mind that anybody bisexual would complain about this show, just because the, the portrayal of Ilya, who is the Russian hockey star, who is the rival of Shane Hollander, and their sexual tension, not just competitive attention, they end up fucking, oh my God, it's so good. Not just the fucking, not just the fucking is hot, the fucking is amazing, but The fucking is amazing, but that's not why everyone stayed. The portrayal of Ilya, like it's so fucking good. It's such a three dimensional portrayal of a kind of bisexuality that we only started talking about her naming a few years ago, which is the bisexual, but heteroromantic or homoromantic or bi romantic person. We finally pulled apart bisexual from like who you can fuck and who you can fall in love with. And Ilya is the first, I think prominent portrayal I've ever seen of someone who is bisexual, but homoromantic. Homoromantic. I'm trying to think now if there's another portrayal. Obviously, I know people in my life, I don't, oh, I will have to rack my brain on that, but I think that that might be correct. And, but I also would argue that like just like we don't know how Ilya is going to identify in five years, like we don't know if this is, if he's homoromantic, full stop, right? Like he might be bi romantic overall, but have only fallen for this one man in life. I mean, I think that the other a little bit unrealistic part is that they like hook up only like basically date only each other, even though it's real under the table for like 10 years. Like the, I think the most realistic part was Shane trying to date someone else, even though it was a woman. But Ilya, I mean, Ilya fucks everyone. Ilya fucks everyone, but like episode six, I've only ever been in love with one person. And it's not like Ilya didn't have opportunities to fall in love with women. There's a beautiful portrayal of Stetlana in the show, who's Ilya's best friend, but also Ilya's fuck buddy, somebody that Ilya does love, but doesn't love. He's not in love. Right. In love with her. And so I think we can read into how many opportunities Ilya's had to fall in love with a woman and how much incentive Ilya has, considering the cultural context in which she exists, not just a professional athlete in a homophobic sport where there are no out gay athletes. And we know there must be gay athletes in hockey just by numbers, by percentages and probabilities, but also he's Russian. And there's this beautiful scene in episode four where Shane comes out to Ilya as gay, which Ilya laughs at because of course we're sucking each other's dick. Like this is not a surprise. But, and I want to talk about this too, I want to unpack this for Shane. Shane says, well, could we be together? Would you want to be together if we could? And Ilya says, we can't. And Shane says, why? And Ilya looks at him as just because Russia. Yeah. Yeah. He'll never be able to go home if he comes out, if he gets caught. And the stakes for Ilya loving a man are so high, which means the incentives for Ilya, if he was bi-romantic, just to like find this flat Lana that he could be in love with and not just love are tremendous. And yet a decade of him fucking a million women goes by and nobody. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I also think that he doesn't, especially as a Russian man, this part of the context is really personal to me. One of my exes was from the Soviet Union and from like understanding that family dynamic and the cultural context of potentially any kind of queerness is very scary. And he does not allow anyone else to know him. Svetlana, he allows to know him. That one, I think is like an available area for him. But I don't think he was ever that romantically into Svetlana as much as he loves her as a person. But Svetlana, second and third watching, you see the awareness, it's not stated, but you see these interactions between Ilya and Svetlana where she knows she can't love her, but it's not a her problem. You think it's a male? She knows that he can only fall in love with a man, which is why she doesn't take the rejection personally because it's not personal. I always thought it was that she knew that he was in love with Shane. She also knew that he was in love with his coach's son. Remember in what is it? Which is her brother. That's her brother. Oh my God. That's her fucking brother. In episode four, she arranges, smuggles Ilya's old like teenage fuck buddy boyfriend into this party and like arranges for them to meet in a bathroom together. And she leaves. She's like, okay, you guys have fun. She leaves assuming they're going to fuck. Yes. And he's not into it. And probably because he's doing the shame. Because he's got his gown so bad they're Shane by then. Yeah, he's doing the shame. But it's yeah, I'm pretty sure that's her brother. It's that's kind of the slip. I understanding that's her brother. He says to Shane, I've been with one other man. It was my coach's son. And then you first meet Svetlana, who is also the coach's daughter. And so it's interesting because you like hear this and when I so you first meet her and I was like, I have to watch it a fourth time because obviously I've been picked up on it. And so that was I was like, Oh, was this like a slip? Like he said it was his coach's son, but it wasn't. And then you meet her brother. I mean, she's an extremely chill person to date. Like I watched this whole thing and I was like, she's Polly. She's so chill. She doesn't have a lot of jealousy here. But she does understand the constraints of their relationship. And so maybe you're right. It is that he's only romantic. I think if Ilya if Svetlana knew that Ilya was capable of falling in a romantic love with a woman, she would be wounded by his failure to fall in love with her. But she knows that Ilya is romantically attracted only to men. She knows that this boy, her brother was the great love of his life as a teenager. And she isn't wounded by the rejection because it's not she doesn't perceive it as a rejection just as an impossibility. Yeah, I will agree to mostly agree and sort of disagree because I think part of it is just she doesn't take it personally because she understands that that's she's also not in love with him. But Oh, I think she is. Oh, I don't think she is. Oh, that scene where she goes, where she basically takes her leave and she knows how lucky he is. Shane and Ilya put each other on each other's phones as Lily and Jane so that if their text messages are somebody looking over their shoulder, it looks like they're texting with a girl even though they're talking about sucking each other's dicks in these text messages, which is like there's so much about making or about the story that takes you back to the way gay people lived in the 50s and 40s and 30s, where you referred to your boyfriend with female pronouns and by a female name so that if you were having a conversation about them and you were overheard, you didn't out yourself. So all this like she girl stuff that gay men still do is kind of this sometimes unaware like just kind of cultural like legacy. It's just like kids singing songs from 600 years ago that are about the bubonic plague and playing and it's just like kid culture is passing on even though no one remembers what they mean or what they were about. That's sort of like she her girl stuff. Isn't just African American for Nacular English. It's also about a Polari. It was also like a white closet coping mechanism. And so like watching that like just gutted me, but there's this moment where Lana is basically taking her leave of Ilya and says, I hope Jane realizes how lucky he is. I know. And it's devastating. And what like I get from that is like a little heartbreak on that Lana's part and awareness that Ilya can't love her the way he loves this Jane guy. And she doesn't know Jane's a guy. She hasn't been told Jane is a guy. She hasn't been told, but she knows. She assumes Jane is a guy. She knows. Okay, that's true. That's true. Then maybe I will take this argument. I in this realm as well. Each one of these men has a woman that pushes him to pursue his authentic authenticity. We got to talk about Rose. Kip has Elena. But I think that no one's talking about that either. Shane has Rose and Ilya has Svelana. And I think it's very interesting that these secondary female characters are the ones who one know, who are attuned enough to figure it out and who are able to love these men enough to like offer them the gift of you can move through this. Yeah. And Scott has nobody. And Scott has nobody. Breaks my heart. Until he. Until Kip. Until he goes for it with Kip. Yeah. There's also been some discourse, some chatter on threads and other social media platforms about Shane being biphobic because Shane is insecure about Ilya because Ilya could marry a woman. Right. I think that's zero percent biphobic. I feel like that's zero for fucking benefits. Exactly. Well, thank you for it's honoring me because you tell me, tell me why it's zero percent biphobic for Shane to be anxious about this relationship. He's insecure as fuck. He obviously, because he has been given not a lot of actual security around this relationship, they're constantly like on, off, will we, won't we? And Ilya is constantly pushing him away. Yeah. And Shane also will push him away. But so he, and also like you said, Ilya has every like opportunity to go be with a woman, to pursue being with a woman because it would be quote unquote easier, right? For so many reasons for him. And for Shane to admit that that makes him insecure, I don't think makes him biphobic. I think it is him saying, I don't understand how to find concreteness in this. And so how do I know that you're not going to leave me and, and you could leave me for something. It'd be easier. Right. It's also Shane saying, I'm the gay one in this relationship. And that means I'm more vulnerable. Well, and he says I have choice. I have feelings. I like you more than I should. He says, when he comes out, Shane comes out to Ilya as gay. Yeah. In this heartbreaking scene, which then we find out later is the first scene they filmed, which, oh, I know about that. More details about how this would produce your respect for these two actors just grows and grows and grows because it's an absolutely heartbreaking scene. And they're so connected and that it is the first scene they filmed. But Shane comes out to Ilya and says, I think I'm gay. And it's worse for him. This like, fucking and Ilya kind of love bombing him every once in a while, because Ilya will go silent for months on Shane and then like, just turn it up. And when he wants him, and Ilya wants Shane in a way that I think makes Ilya uncomfortable because of the consequences for Ilya of falling in love with another man. So he's very slow to let himself admit how he's feelings. Well, I've been there. And I used to get so much grief for this because I would say 30 years ago when I started writing Savage Love, it gets riskier for a gay guy to date a bi guy because there's a lot of bi guys out there who want to fuck us but won't love us because they won't let themselves love us, like especially 30, 40 years ago, because the consequences were similar. You would lose family, you would lose friends, you couldn't have children, you couldn't get married. There are all these cultural pressures and incentives for a bi guy who was that thing that not all bi guys or not all bi people are, which is like capable of loving somebody regardless of their gender, but equally attracted to people romantically and sexually, which we now know because we have this discourse about bisexual, but bi romantic, heteromantic, homo romantic, isn't true. And that discourse kind of confirmed what a lot of gay men experienced dating bi guys, which is like, if all you wanted was like some dick in a good time, like great, but you were more, if you caught feelings, the odds that those feelings would be reciprocated if the guy was bi were lower than if the guy were gay. What would be allowed to be reciprocated, I think. Right, and there's no automatically, you fall in love with a gay guy, he's automatically falling in love with you. There's always risk, but dating is about mitigating risks often, right, especially in the 80s. But yes, it was a much scarier opportunity to move into your homo romanticism if you were bi then, but I also think even now, like, I think this is part of the reason why it took me until my mid twenties to come out because when I had moments of like, oh, well, I think I could be really into being with a woman sexually and romantically. And like, I am bisexual and bi romantic. And it like, it stopped me because I also thought to myself, oh, well, you know, it is, it is easier for me. And it's hard to admit that like, it is easier for me if I just date a man and not because my family is homophobic or like, you know, I grew up in a liberal Jewish SoCal world and where everyone is like, yeah, great, you're gay, fine. But it's, it is still a scary and vulnerable thing to do. And so until it felt like a necessity until I was quite literally having dreams like every other night about being with women. And I was like, all right, I can't stop pretending anymore. But I think that that it is if there feels like a choice, it can feel quote unquote easier. And that's not to demonize any bi person who's listening to this and thinking, well, I made that choice. And so like, that's not bad. That is simply like understanding the context with which we exist. I understand, like, I've been accused of being biphobic. What you just described, I understand that because I tried to be straight because I tried to choose not to be gay. And for a while that meant identifying as bi and man jacking off inside a woman while I was thinking about a guy, which they show Shane doing with Rose. Like he is thinking about Ilya, Ilya who went out to a club to pick up a woman he needed to get laid, chose to go home alone instead and jack off in the shower. Because what he really wanted was Shane and he would rather be alone and thinking about Shane than be with a woman at that moment. But I tried to not to choose something else because of the incentives structure that existed when I was 15 years old. That was pressuring me. So like, I understand why it took you into your 20s to accept and come out as bi and why it takes bi people often longer. And I have less sympathy now, I think, for gay people who come out in their 40s and 50s just because like, you're not missing out, you're opting out. Like, I don't get that. Well, that's a whole other podcast. But I got to say, like, I felt seen and validated because I was the gay guy who fucked things up with the bi guy because I caught feelings. And I was treated by like some of the bi guys I dated or fucked around with, like I had violated them by catching feelings. And that I was the worst, I was the sicker one, or I was the more fucked up one, or I was the problem, because the fucking was great. And like Ilya basically says is, you know, what's the problem? We meet, we fuck no problem. It's great. But like the fact that Shane is catching feelings for Ilya, because I like you more than I think I should. Like Ilya, Shane is screwing it all up by having a heart and like falling in love with Ilya. And he's, he's so very, it's almost like his gayness is a problem. Like he wishes he would like Ilya in that the assumption that Shane is making at that moment that Ilya doesn't love him, or couldn't love him, or wouldn't want to love him. Right. And like, I, Shane feels like he doesn't have a choice. I was there. And it's heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. And if I had had a choice, I would have chosen something other than gay. I thought I did and I tried. So like, I have total sympathy and empathy for, for bisexual people who bury it or set it aside or identify as straight because I did. Yeah. That exact same thing. But then I didn't have the option. Right. And it's, it's heartbreaking. Because I just couldn't, I wasn't capable of it. And it wasn't fair. I had roses. I had a, you know, girlfriend and it wasn't fair to them what I was doing. Like they, I had hollowed her out and I was using her as a closet. And the scene between Rose and Shane, when Rose, who's this movie star that Shane meets in a bar in Montreal, who's in town shooting something and they click as friends, she becomes his flat Lana, really his cop it up and someone who knows him in some ways better than himself. That scene in the restaurant where she coaxes Shane makes you feel safe coming out to her. She's the one who brings it up. She's the one, because also I think the context with which she does it in saying that I've had, you know, 80% of my boyfriends have been gay because I've been in theater, which is one heartbreaking for her, right? To have a bunch of men who she is attempting to be romantic with, not actually be that into her romantically and sexually, but to, to be able to lovingly approach Shane with that and say like, I'm wondering if that's part of what's happening here and allowing him, that's the first person he comes out to. She knows what it's like to be jacked off inside by a gay dude who's in the closet because she's been through it. She recognizes the signs. So sad. And she has empathy for, although Shane was I don't think Shane was consciously using her. Shane had not yet fully accepted himself as gay at that point. Right. Rose is his like last desperate attempt to see if he can't do this. Yes. Yes. 100%. That's 100% his last desperate attempt. But so in, in all of that, that is why I don't think Shane is biphobic or because he, he is simply terrified. And I also think, I think that an important piece of this around like Ilya, like being hot and cold because of the Russian context of his life. I also think that the Russian context of his emotionality is really important because Shane becomes the person throughout the season who is the one pushing forward the like emotions and the actual romanticism. And I know from being in relationship with someone who was raised in that culture that being vulnerable emotionally as a man is almost impossible. And for Ilya to get to the point of being able to admit his feelings or open up is like a fucking miracle. And I think that, that is a big piece of it, less, almost in competition with and maybe less than the fact that he's like, well, I'm wrestling with my homosexuality. Like, I think it's also about the fact that his emotions are really difficult to access because of the culture that he was raised in. All right. I want to, we're jumping all over this series chronologically. I want to talk about episode one and the very first sexual encounter between Shane and Ilya because I really feel that a lot of people, like if you said a man did this to a woman, people would freak the fuck out. Ilya corners Shane when Shane is naked and masturbates at him. Because to stroke his dick in a room where Shane kind of can't get away from him because he's completely vulnerable and he's naked. Ilya is standing between the door and Shane, basically, and they're naked. I mean, men and women don't shower together in hockey stadiums. So it's a very male and mask environment. But like, I did see a little bit of chatter that some people saying, well, I can't get into this because basically Shane is sexually assaulted by Ilya in that moment. And I was like, yeah, no, that's not what that was. So when I initially watched it, my first reaction was that feels really wrong, that he just immediately started masturbating at him. Then I, one, talk to you a little bit about it, but two. We had a back channel conversation before we talked about this. We, I watched, I looked at some things on threads and one person said in the book, because a lot of people, this I find fascinating is when people are like, I'm going to fill in the details for you because I've read the book and this is actually way more context. In the book, Shane has a hard on. And so Ilya takes that as, okay, you're into it. Right. And so then I rewatched this first episode and Shane looks down at his dick. We never see any dicks, which I was actually shocked at, but we see, we see one tiny moment of a dick when we see the dick pic, but beyond that. I was like, oh, pause that. But they, so Shane looks down at his dick and then looks at Ilya and says, fuck off. And so in that moment, I was like, Oh, is that Jacob Tierney telling us that Shane actually does have a hard on in that moment, the, the context that we needed for Ilya to then turn to him and start jacking off? Like that, that's what I'm wondering in the rewatch. I just took it as that kind of masculine, animalistic, go for broke. Ilya had red Shane a couple of times they had that workout session like six months ago. There's a very slow build to this moment. And they kind of held hands when they touched the water bottle, Ilya clocked Shane looking at his crotch. Yeah, they were flirting doing the commercial right before. Yeah. And Ilya just has the balls to go for it. And Shane is in his first rodeo. Ilya has slept with other men, at least one. I think more, my guess is I think probably more. I mean, Ilya just overall has had more sex at this point. And so I don't think it was, this is what I said to you when we chatted about it via text. So much of, and the reason Gen Z is so fucked and is not having any sex at all, is that there's a part of sex that is about guessing correctly, where you hit on somebody, and it's a guess that they're interested in you too. And if you guess right, then everybody's happy, right? You guess, you think somebody's like kind of into you and you like go for it and turns out they are, everybody's happy. If you succumb to dickful thinking and you convince yourself when the signs are ambiguous to go for it and you guess wrong, then somebody may feel violated or angry or hurt. Ilya guesses right. And Ilya has enough data from previous interactions with Shane at that moment to know that this is maybe not what Shane would ask for, not exactly what he could articulate that he wants at this moment, but it won't be unwelcome, even though it is a threat, that there's a part of Shane's eroticism that is turned on by danger, by being bad and by being cornered and being domed. And Ilya has already picked, he's this mama's boy, picked all of this up and just puts all of his chips in the middle of the table and goes for it. And he guessed right, he guessed right. He also, he clocks him when they are sharing that water in the workout room and Shane drinks some and then Ilya says more and Shane does it. Obey's, Shane. Full eye contact. Obey's Ilya. Yes. Already topping him. And in that moment knows Shane likes being ordered around. Yeah. There's one thing I want to talk about like, and this is whether it's a gay story, whether it's like women playing with gay dolls, whether it's a sapphic story, I think it's very, Jacob Tierney who created it, who adapted it as a gay man. I think it's, I see gay all over this and the sex is gay. That Jacob Tierney took this out to the studios and they said they don't want them to, the notes he got from executives where they shouldn't fuck during season one. And there should be this long, slow build to season two, maybe they fuck. And that is like a straight rom-com. Right. You fall in love and then you have sex. And the way it works for gay men is you have sex and then you keep having sex and you keep having sex and then maybe you fall in love. Right? That's how it works when men are fucking men for all sorts of reasons, some of them very dark about women not being safe with men the same way men feel or are safe with each other. But for me, like one of the grace notes of this that I was just like, I feel seen as a gay man was the scene when Ilya is in Russia at his, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, his father's funeral and Ilya is very upset and he calls Shane in this emotionally needy way, not just sexually needy. And Shane tells Ilya, just tell me what's on your heart. Just talk to me, say it in Russian if it's easier and I'll just listen. And Shane, Ilya pours his heart out. And what he says at the end was that he's just so desperately in love with Shane and he's saying it in Russian. So Shane does not hear this or understand it and he doesn't know what to do about it. And there's this moment before Ilya says, basically, I love you to Shane for the first time, but he's not ready for Shane to know it. So he's saying it in Russian. And there's this pause and he's in Russia where there are anti LGBT laws, people can't be out publicly where people have been arrested for being gay or in a gay relationship. And there's this pause before he says, I love you to Shane for the first time. And a cop car goes through the shot with its lights on. And it's just like, oh my God, so much of the show is so intentional, so much of the construction of it. Either Jacob Tierney did that on purpose, or that happened by accident, but I have to think it was done on purpose. And then the thing that made me go, this is a show about gay men that I recognize and not a projection of a straight woman's fantasy where they can enjoy male sexual aggression without feeling complicit in the oppression of women or the way women are terrorized or violated by males because it's two men going at it. It's not Kendall's, right? It's not G.I. Joe's. After that, everyone talks about that moment and Shane's saying I love you or Ilya's saying I love you in Russian to Shane for the first time. And how heartbreaking that scene is now moving that scene is. And I just want to say, stick around. I'm sure everyone does, but it doesn't quite register because the next thing, first thing out of Shane's mouth at the end of that conversation, they could have ended the scene right there. First thing out of Shane's mouth is like, you should teach me Russian. And then Ilya says, yeah, but only useful phrases like yes, daddy, harder, please. And they just pivot effortlessly back to their, to the hardcore, aggressive, dom sub gay sex that they have, and their erotic connection. And it's not walled off from at that moment from their feelings for each other, the depth of their feeling for each other. It is an outgrowth. The depth of their feelings for each other is an outgrowth of their sexual compatibility and how they've clicked and how they've connected erotically. And that Jacob Tierney just like keeps going and gives us this moment where like, oh, it's love, oh, hearts and heart stopper and like butterflies and shit flying around. It's love. And then Jacob Tierney wants us to remember that love for them is Ilya holding Shane down and pressing his face into the mattress with a hand on the back of his head while he fucks the shit out of him. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. But I think love for them is part of the erotic. But I also think, I think, yes, that one, it was beautiful and I was so moved. But as a woman who has held sex so deeply as part of my identity and the way that I move through the world, that is also, and my profession, but that is also what my love looks like. Like, I think that not only is it gay men, like I think it is people who are able to center and weave in the erotic into their romantic life, which is what I hope everyone is able to do and what I like try and help my clients do. But I think that that it is not actually so narrow that it is only for gay men in that way. I think it is for anyone who is able to hold the eroticism with romance. What's interesting about what you just said, and I want to highlight it, this is a portrayal of and a romanticization of male sexual aggression. And the problem for women moving through the real world is the fact of male sexual aggression and the danger it presents. So I think there's this onus on the creator of any sort of media that portrays an opposite sex relationship, where you have to be very careful with the gasoline of male sexual aggression with romanticizing it. And so I think that in sex, as it's portrayed between opposite sex couples, there's this like shying away from what can be hot, even for a woman about male sexual aggression. So it's not to give the men out there who don't know what they're doing. Any bad ideas, any worse ideas than they might already have. Yes, we agreed. Male sexual aggression is, I think, easy for two men to incorporate or even start with. Whereas when a woman is interested in a man, she's really assessing him as to whether he's able to contain and control his aggression sexually so that she can enjoy parts of it without being murdered by him or violated by him. Absolutely. We're constantly assessing for our safety at all turns. Which is something that I'm always saying to the straight guys who listen to the show, like you have to project yourself into the woman's experience if you're straight, and control for fear. And like it's not a judgment on you as an individual, but like it's a perfectly rational response to men as a class. Right, like this is the context with which we live. And it's, yeah, I mean, I could go into a whole fucking thing about that, but. So showing this kind of fucking, if it's two men, I think it feels safer. Absolutely. Absolutely, it does. Then showing this kind of fucking if it was a man literally with his hand elbow locked, his hand on the back of a woman's head, pressing her into the couch and fucking the shit out of her. Like it's no, it wouldn't. Vibe. It would 100%. And that's why I think it is so important like side note to be able to have media that portrays that in a container that is safe and enthusiastic, just like Humphilm Festival. But it does. I mean, it's not like G.I. Joe's, it's not Kendall. Like that moment in Russia when Ilya says, I'll teach you useful phrases like yes, sir and hard. It's not downplaying gay, male sexuality and aggressive. It can be. While at the same time it's allowing women to vicariously enjoy a kind of male sexual aggression that can feel if it was a story about a woman and a man. Much more complicated, much more problematic, much more fraught than it does watching these two fuck the shit out of each other. 100%. There has been a lot of conversation about like, why do straight women love this show so much? And I think a lot of it has been that answer. But I think another part of it that people are not talking about is that people are allowed and do fantasize about things that don't include them and that that can be extremely hot. Like I think so much of it is like, why does this appeal to a straight female audience? Well, it must be because she can see herself in this way. Like, why can't it just be that this is extremely hot? We love romance like as a whole of being female. I think this is the difference between men and women actually between females and males, between male bodied people and female bodied people. There are studies. That we can fantasize about other things. No, the studies famous from the 90s where they showed gay men, bi men and straight men who were hooked up to that penis erection measuring device, that chamber, their dick was in a chamber. And the gay men responded to gay porn.哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎 And then they showed straight women, bi women and lesbians all sorts of different porn. They showed the gay men, the bi men and the straight men all sorts of different porn, but the gay guys only responded to gay and men and the straight guys only responded to straight and women. And then they showed gay, straight, bi and monkey porn to women who identified as lesbians, women who were straight and women who were bi and the women responded to all of it. Right. Right. And so, we have a fundamental essential truth about one of the differences between male and female sexuality as lived is that it's not just this vicarious enjoyment that women can take in, or people who are assigned female birth can take, but that this like just penumbra of eroticism that can turn women on, whereas men I think are a little bit more narrowly focused to our, not to our benefit, it would be great if we were as like omnivorous as women are erotically, but we aren't. We tend to be a little bit more OCD about our. I think you could cultivate it a little bit. I do believe there's. I watch a lot of porn every year, judging how I'm playing. I have cultivated this shit out of it, but I'm still not firing up the straight porn when I'm home alone. Well, I'm glad that you're getting exposed to it, you know, but I do think that that part of it is that that is lacking in the conversation, that it's not just about, oh, we can like women can see that there is male sexuality that is not as scary for us because there's not a woman involved, but I do think it's about. There's not a woman in peril. How is that really? Like, Ilya turning to a woman like. No, it would be horrible. It would be a shower together in a locker room, but like in a bathroom at a club. It would be terrifying. And like pulling his dick out and jacking off at her when she can't get away. No, absolutely fucking not. And it I just think that like we need to be able to expand our idea of eroticism to include more than what we what we just want. Like I really want people to understand. You can fantasize about things that you want to do in reality. It's not like I have to be like a center of the universe syndrome or have to be the main character. But like for a fantasy to turn me on, it has to plausibly involve or implicate me somehow. And like I can't watch lesbian porn and go like. There's nothing for me, even though like penumbra, but there's nothing for me. I think it's so interesting. But I'm also one of those weird, like I've talked about with this with masturbation, like with my readers and realized I was an outlier in that like. I, you know, somebody said, is it disrespectful to jack off about a dead celebrity? Hmm. And like interesting question. And of course, like, do you need somebody's consent to jack off about them? Absolutely not. But the dead celebrity is like, I think masturbation is should be hopeful. You should be masturbating about things that could happen and you can't sleep with the dead or you shouldn't sleep with a dead celebrity. It's never going to happen. And like my masturbatory fantasies or my fantasies are all about like things that might happen to me plausibly. Unless me and sex is never going to happen to me. So there's no, I think so many people fantasize about kinks and stuff that they never actually want to do. But when they fantasize about those kinks, they fantasize about exploring them with the people that they're sexually attracted to. They just don't. Okay. All right. Maybe, but I think some people are really turned on by the actual like kink or whatever that they like don't actually want to do or like people who have maybe rape fantasies, but they don't actually want to be raped. Right. Like, Or the straight guys out there who are so into bondage that they'll play with gay guys who are into bondage because it's the bondage that's the turn on, not necessarily the partner. It's okay. I let that track. That's legible for me now. Yeah. So I think that that's part of it. And or like people fantasizing about like getting fucked by aliens. Like that's not a thing that's going to happen. Like they could, they could make it happen in a scene. Right. But like that, I think You see those Abhi Positor dildos? No, what is that? It's a dildo that looks like some sort of It was like a tentacle. penis or alien reproductive thing and you can push eggs through it. So you like deposit. I have seen that. I have seen that. Actually, it's very exciting. Um, If I sit out there knows where to get a good one. I know somebody who'd like to have one, but they're, they're too nervous about buying and I'm not mean. Not like I have a friend. I love this. So that's a friend who would like an Abhi Positor. We just don't know where to get them equality one. I, I really hope that this comes through for them. It's an Abhi Positor in season two of heated rivalry. You have to bring it back to heated rivalry. I was going to say, yeah, let's I also love that Shane talks about his dildo. The thing, the thing that is missing also in the depiction of it on screen, which I have understood now is in the book in droves is lube and douching. Like Shane's just like a ready fucking bottom all the time. I'm with Jacob Tierney. We didn't need to see him do one thing that did come up online, not to make this all just like reacting to the biggest idiots on the internet, but we're mostly women freaking out about gay guys joking about when Shane and Ilya have their first threesome and them being not monogamous when they grow up as a gay couple. And there were women jumping in to say, how dare you? And gay men saying, do you know anything about gay relationships? And I wanted to my second, third viewing. There is a scene where Scott Hunter, who's the closeted hockey star, the older one is staying in the room next to Ilya. Oh, oh, yes. And Shane sneaks in and he's really nervous. It's got hunters right next door. And Ilya is like seducing Shane and saying, well, maybe he'll hear us. Are they like a mating call? Yeah, he'll come watch. Yeah. Shane does not say no. And Ilya goes, you would like that. Right. And like that to me was an indication that like there's something about Shane and Ilya's sexuality and sexual connection that's not just, oh, I love you. Therefore, because we're in love, we no longer want to have sex with other people or monogamous, although they haven't said I love you at that point yet. Right. And I, but I just look at Shane and Ilya's dynamic. Ilya has never been monogamous through the relationship. There is a moment at the cottage where Shane is excited that Ilya hasn't slept with anybody since they saw him last. Which I don't think is about monogamy. It's about emotional depth and how connected they are to each other. Many, many, many gay relationships were monogamous at the start during the limerence phase and like this is period where the gay guys were just like not interested in fucking anybody else. And then they transitioned at some point to not just like, oh, we're not that into each other anymore. Let's like bring in outside sex partners to, so we don't leave each other, but like they bond was secure enough and their erotic interests were broad enough that together they could go on adventures. Right. Yeah. The other thing that I think is like me projecting onto them. Yeah. I'm sorry. Somebody who likes to be held down in fact is somebody who wants to or eventually has to be tied down and fucked. Well, they absolutely. Well, okay. Before we get into that in a second, I think Ilya loves adrenaline in his eroticism. And so I think that adding in new people adds that part in. He also seems to really like novelty. And so I think that that is also part of potentially adding in other people. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some group sex. I also do think that it is like more realistic through line of a gay male relationship if they are playing with other people, but not necessarily. Also, Ilya in the Scott Kipp episode that is so fresh on my mind because I watched it last night, he says to Scott, Scott says, we'll fuck yourself. And Ilya says, it's more fun if you're there. And so as he's like leaving the ice. So there is all of that kind of set up. I doubt they'll fuck actually Scott, but you know, maybe some other cutie. But I think it's one of the genius things about the show is that we can all see ourselves in these characters. Yes. There are people out there who are monogamous and who are women who see themselves in Shane and Ilya or see their ideal like relationship in Shane and Ilya's relationship and the ability of straight people to identify with gay characters, whereas that didn't used to be a thing straight people were capable of doing. We had to look for gay coded characters who were opposite sex relationships in media to find ourselves portrayed often by gay writers like Tennessee Williams, who would write gay characters or Edward Albee. But they were always and Stephen Sondheim would write these about these relationships that were clearly gay male relationships, but they were not. They were not cast as they were not too then in the script or on the stage. Right. So that's a sign of progress that everybody can see themselves in a dim for these characters. And there are people who are really invested in monogamy, who are really invested in Shane and Ilya. Yeah. Being monogamous. And there are gay men out there watching. And I think, you know, I'm projecting myself like I see these two and I'm like, OK, they're going to be monogamous for a while. And then they're going to be kinky and Polly, which is like they're going to be down and Terry, that's just my experience under these two. There will definitely be a power couple. That's for sure. But they they absolutely are already kinky. And even like when they're going to be a fulsome someday with Shane on a leash. That's what I want to fucking. They're going to be a fulsome. Shane and Ilya would fucking love that. Ilya wants all the eyes on him. Shane wants to be able to show off his hot ass top. Like, are we kidding? Imagine Ilya in Leather. So hot. I like that ass in chaps. Oh, my God. The ass is OK. One of my best friends who is a straight chick looked at me and because she watched the show, not even by me telling her, which I was like, so into. She she looks at me and goes, I didn't know I was so into asses. And I was like, welcome. All right, we've been talking for an hour. This is practically an entire episode of heated rivalry. So we should probably wrap it up. Any final thought about the show? That I think this is like amazing breakthrough media. And I am fucking thrilled to be able to talk to you about it. My final thought is I wrote a script for was it CVS? It's an AVC that where they wanted the gay characters to be gay. And then they didn't make it because it was too gay. And it was probably 80 percent less gay than he tried. And I want to like find the executive who killed it and like hit her on the head with the script. Gay men wouldn't do this literally said to me in a meeting. Gay men wouldn't do this. And I'm like, uh, you're like, I know gay men. This is a documentary, actually, what I've written. An autobiography. Claire, thank you so much. Claire Perlman, queer Jewish certified sex therapist based in the Bay Area. She's sex clarified on social media. And she's my go-to person to hash out crazy television shows where closet cases make out in front of large, plate glass windows, particularly problematic with Scott and Kip because Scott is so deeply closeted. And yet his apartment in New York, giant windows facing all the buildings that are like block away. We've ever been in New York. If two hot guys are fucking in an apartment with the lights on and the curtains not drawn, they draw an audience. And yet. I think if we have a poetic license, we will allow Jacob Tierney in the show because everything else is just so pitch perfect and spot on. We loved it. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. Thanks, Claire. All right, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Claire Perlman. She is sex clarified on Instagram. And also you can find out more about Claire and the work that she does at her website, sex clarified.com. This has been a very special episode of Sex and Nut Politics, Sex and Television for our Magnum Subs and our Micro listeners. Thank you all so much. And yeah, definitely Claire will be back with me to talk about season two of Hunting Wines, which is coming up and season two of Cannot Wait. Needed rivalry. Thanks for listening. This episode of the Savage Love Cast is brought to you by Load Boost by VB Health. Load Boost is a supplement designed to improve the taste, the volume and the overall health of your semen. If you're already putting in the work, why not make your performance unforgettable, made in the USA, NSF certified and produced in an FDA registered facility, thousands of guys across 50 states and 45 countries swear by Load Boost. If you want bigger finishes and better reviews from your audiences, if you want better taste, better mouthfeel, go to loadboost.com today and use code Savage for 10% off or click the link in this week's episode description. That's loadboost.com and use offer code Savage. What a scream. We installed telephone wires across rural Britain over a century ago and you're still paying to use them for your broadband today. If it ain't broke, what? Stop. Your days of selling phone age broadband are over. Blast. I've spilled the beans. Upgrade to 100% full fiber, giga clear, faster broadband for rural Britain from only 19 pounds a month. Price may rise during contract. T's and C's apply. Check availability at gigaclear.com.