Inside a Top 200 Architect’s Mind: How Design Shapes the Way We Live | Jay Reinert

This is iDesignLab, a podcast where creativity and curiosity meet style and design. Curator of interiors, furnishings, and lifestyles. Hosted by Tiffany Woolley, an interior designer and a style enthusiast, along with her serial entrepreneur husband Scott. iDesignLab is your ultimate design podcast where we explore the rich and vibrant world of design and its constant evolution in style and trends. Today on the iDesignLab, meet Jay Reinhart, founder of Jay Reinhart Architecture and one of Forbes' top 200 residential architects who blends craftsmanship, creativity, and precision to design spaces that don't just look incredible, but truly shape how we live. Welcome to the iDesignLab podcast. Today we are joined with Jay Reinhart, who has an architecture firm, a founder, and actually a very serious designer as well. So we look forward to diving into this conversation. Welcome to Rainey, South Florida. Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. And tell us, tell the audience a little bit about your background. Introduce us. How far would you like me to go? Well, we're going to go back a little bit further, but just tell us a little introduction. I grew up in a family that was very supportive, and I had a grandfather who was a boat builder and a carpenter who also worked for Curtis Publishing in Philadelphia. They closed the doors and that gave him an opportunity to go do other things. And then found my way in college or in high school that I wanted to be an architect and was supported incredibly well by two teachers at that time. Your parents? Or no teachers. By two teachers in high school. Two shop teachers. Which is like something we don't even see much of these days. I mean, it gives me goosebumps to think about how they changed my life path. And then went to UNC Charlotte and then NC State. Came out in 1990 where there was no work for architects. And why was that? I think it was the dot com bus at the time. Okay. It was a real shame because I had spent some time with RTKL and Baltimore. Okay. And won a traveling fellowship summer internship with them. And so the summer before that I had traveled the West Coast on their dime and generosity. Amazing. Studying every theme park aquarium in zoo on the way. Oh, wow. I mean, from the Mexican border to Vancouver. That's crazy. So, you know, when I graduated they just left like 300 people go. So that opportunity kind of fell. Another transition into what led you to. And that led me into relying on my building. Yeah. You said your grandfather was a boat builder. When you say boat builder, like. He built racing dinghies. So small sail boats. So cute. Okay. And my uncle won the worlds in a moth. So did that experience of seeing what your grandfather was doing kind of set your goals or your. He would, you know, I was encouraged to go to the basement with him and then work. Right. You know, I mean, not work. I mean, it wasn't, it was more an encouragement thing than like being forced to. Well, and I feel like, like your story, which I mean, we're going to dive through. But I feel like you really had a hands on approach versus technical approach. Yes. I mean, I'm the very beginning. I was surprised when I got to architecture school. Right. That you needed all this. That I had a, I was coming from craft and architecture at the time was celebrating philosophy and design thinking, right? Which was a surprise to me, you know. I didn't have the vocabulary that like, you know, and I won't call it intelligence, but certainly the grades that some of this other students had. But I made my way and then, you know. And it's worked out okay for you. I made a difference. I actually did really, really well through school coming from a hands on approach versus an academic. But you also have a construction background. Yes. So where did the construction background come into play? So when I came out of school in 1990 and there was no work. You went to work. I bought a pickup truck. Okay. Lived in my parents' basement and started building decks and anything I can do to, you know. So what point of line, so you're now in construction. At what point does it sort of change to architecture? So somewhere around 2000. So I was always doing architecture along with building. Okay. I had connections with architects. So I was doing design build. I was building things I designed. Okay. Right. And it was a lot like being a sculptor. So it wasn't very financially productive. Right. When you want to take advantage of every opportunity you discover along the way in a, you know, building project, after a while you've been there too long. So 2004, 2005, crazy enough, was the time where I decided it was time to stop being distracted by construction and start moving towards the... But you're unique in the fact that from what we experienced, we work with quite a number of architects. It's the one thing I think Tiffany Morseau says it all the time that most of these architects don't fully understand the construction or what's involved in it. And it's not part of architectural education. Right. So, like I was saying, architecture is more of a philosophical endeavor or business endeavor, right? Or science, you know, the craft part is not something that most architects are very interested... I shouldn't say not very interested in. They don't have the opportunity to get hands on. And, you know, in college, when I was going through school, my internship, my TAs positions were always running the shops, you know? So helping other students figure out how to build furniture, I helped with the furniture design studio. And we did a lot of laminated furniture, just crazy fun stuff. It was great. So yeah, but most architects do not... If you asked me... We run into it all the time. I mean, I just had a conversation with an architect this past week and I was asking him a question. He said, well, how'd the GC figure it out? Yeah. I mean, that is what I sell against. Right. Right. I mean, one of the first things in our conversations with prospective clients is that, you know, we're going to stay involved from the beginning to the end. Right. We're going to take things through, so we're not giving them a suggestion. We're giving them an instruction. And if something happens and they need to change that or an issue arises, we want to know about it. Well, I look at it from the consumer or the client. It's beneficial to have someone like yourself who understands and has done the construction side, ends an architect at the end of the day for the homeowner, you know, remodeling or rebuild. And I would believe money in the process. I think that we're certainly cleaning up the process. Right. Right. I mean, there's some great builders out there and I always say, you know, I don't want to limit anybody's input and creativity as far as our projects go. But you need to bring it to us and have a conversation with us. You can't make a decision at seven o'clock in the morning, you know, to move a closet from that wall to that wall because you found a pipe in the wall that you don't want to move. Right. You know, I mean, that's not the way we make decisions. You need to inform us and we need to have a conversation with the client. And you know, in that conversation with the client, we discuss why that decision was made to begin with and then give the builder, you know, instruction on what to do. But yeah, it's a different process when you have a background, I think, in construction. And I'm not the only one. There are architects out there. But it's, so I don't want to badmouth the profession. There's certainly people who have expertise in certain areas. Oh, for sure. But for residential projects, especially in like the Philadelphia suburb area, right, where we have a lot of buildings already. And the idea is how do we make them become better and become part of the, you know, the client's life and represent who they are and their lifestyle and things. You got to be able to modify things, you know, which means you got to have an understanding of how they were put together. First place, right? It's a little different if you're doing a new home, right? I mean, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you is that like, as you, you know, transition from being in construction and kind of doing both and you, you know, your firm and went into, is it mainly residential? Mainly residential, although we do some commercial work where the client is wants to have fun. Right. And or it's meaningful to the community that we're in. Okay. We just did a garden center and expansion of a hardware store, which is now an ease, you know, it was a hardware store, family owned for like a hundred years. And they bought a lot next door to them and want to extend that into the garden center. But it happens to be in the center of our town. So, you know, so that was a project I took on so that it didn't end up looking like the back of a home depot in the middle of our town. So how do we get involved in, you know, so it, it turned a little more into a park atmosphere where we tried to activate the sidewalk, you know, so we do anything that's fun. I'll design a birdhouse. If you're interested in going through a process that gets the birdhouse that you want, you know, then I don't care what we're designing, right? You know, and that that's something else besides the building and we expect our clients to be highly involved in the process. Well, it is a collaboration and you're bringing your expertise to the table. And what I try to explain is that I'm going to help them understand their options. I know I like to do that too. Through alternatives. Everything I do is in turn. I'm not the one who's like, this is where it's got to be. And this is I practice the same way. Yeah. I my goal, my best clients seem to be very creative people who are a little afraid to take on the project. They trust them themselves almost. Yeah, I know, like they have great idea, great taste, but don't have like all the technical. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stark attack firms that, you know, basically just they want a program, you know, a brief and then go away and we'll show you what your house is going to look like in six months, you know, and that's not us. I mean, we're, if you're not going to be involved and think about things deeply and care, then you're better off going to somebody else. Right. So do you primarily do a lot of renovation since you're in an area where there is such an established town and. Yes. That's a plus and a minus. Oh, I think it's so wonderful because we live here and there is so many new communities where they're just starting from scratch and, you know, there's the cookie cutter world where we also have projects that are architectural little gems that we're trying to preserve and bring to the next generation and they are historical properties. So we have to deal with historical society. Are you dealing with that too? Yes. And a lot of people don't want to take them on. So I always applaud people who do. The goal, whether it's zoning or whether it's historic or what, you know, is understanding where the regulations are coming from and what they're trying to accomplish and, you know, and then do the best you can creatively. Right. To address those. Right. And then when you present them, you can explain to them that we can't do this because of that, but we would like to do this, you know, and I do some contemporary work as well as, you know, kind of restoration, not to the point of like the Department of Interior restoration stuff, but and it really is important, I think, in my office as a Haddonfield, New Jersey, which was founded, you know, before 1700. It's so crazy. It's a really interesting story, actually. Elizabeth Haddon came over as like a 16 year old and founded Haddonfield, you know, and I'm like a 16 year old woman by herself, you know, which is a girl, right? You have 16 year old or something about like that. I mean, it just blows my mind. That is amazing to think about. To read about how and it was a Quaker community and the area had to be settled and lived in where they would lose the rights to the property. And so Haddon, how does daughter come over a boat and settle Haddonfield, which just blows my it just blows my mind. So we have a lot of I would say influence, right? From her. Yeah. So the community, the community is a lot of Forest Square. We do have some Victorian. We have some colonial and then we have a lot of, you know, development done in like the 20s. And those buildings typically are small and scale. The houses are smaller in scale than people typically want today. Okay. So, you know, there's a knockdown problem like in every community, right? And the neighborhoods are changing in character. And they really are established beautiful neighborhoods, you know, and so there's a big uproar about, are we wrecking the feel of a community? And so I've kind of developed a thought about how to deal with that, you know, and my thinking is if it's, if it's well built, was well designed, you know, represents a, a historical time in architecture like Victorian or Forest Square, you know, and adds to the character and context of the community, then we ought to protect that. How far back was it, was it started that she started? So I'm not great with dates, but 16 late 1600s, I believe was the first 1600. Yeah. And there were some major events that happened and hadn't filled through the revolution. Right. You know, and so there's some history there, you know, what we call history. My daughter's in Edinburgh and that's where the real history, you know. So when we talk about history, it's kind of funny. No, but I think when comparison to what's in Europe, we want to preserve that here. I mean, in every little four court, little space we can. Yeah. And so, you know, the Department of Interior says we have to protect, you know, or if like we have a historic district, right? You know, anything in this district, you can do anything you want to it, except change the exterior. Yeah. The street facing public facing facades. Right. Yes. I think that's like way under what we should be doing. You know, I mean, buildings, the floor plans of buildings explain this, what society was like at the time. Oh, totally right. Isn't it just like the use of a kitchen was so different. Exactly. When you walk into a house and there's a parlor on the right. It's this beautiful space. The living room. Where dad came home, sat down, had his brandy and a cigar. Yeah. You know, and the kitchen's in the back with one little teeny window. Yes. They tells you about the dynamics of the family. They had health and yeah. And as we raise that by just blowing things out and making open. Open floor plans. You know, it's just killing. So I do think there's some properties that should be protected much higher more than we protect them. And maybe should even be museums. Right. Right. And and somebody will choose to live there. You know, I mean, they might need to wear bonnet and stuff, but you know. You know, and then most of the houses, 90% of the houses are homes that are adding to the context, you know, in the way that the the original property. The neighborhood feels those we ought to be evolving slowly to support contemporary lifestyle. Right. And respecting, you know, the community and its feel, you know, and I think they even should be giving like a baitment for that. You know, like if you don't knock this house down and instead you work with it, we're going to give you a 10 years of an 100,000 on the 100 first hundred thousand dollars you spend or something, you know, that put your money where your mouth is. Like I said, I think this is valuable to figure out a way to encourage it. Encouraging instead of making rules, I think is the best. Working with somebody for sure. And then there's houses that should be knocked down. Right. I mean, there are houses that don't add to the community, you know, weren't well maintained, weren't well designed or built in the beginning. And those houses, I believe we should be building homes of our time. The same as say the Victorians that we're trying to save were homes, you know, of 18, you know, is it a large percentage of homes that you're doing that fall into that category that you're having to deal with? So the the houses that I do mostly renovation work. Right. And then I do you run into a lot of it being where you're located. Yes. And new homes are typically done by flippers, right? The valve is. Yeah. So they're buying properties and knock them down. Right. So when we get to do a home, you know, a new home, when we decide that and determine that knocking it down is the best thing to do, you know, then we want to I want to do a project that is significant, you know, and it's going to be different. Right. Right. I mean, it's going to be contemporary probably or but it's still should it should still address and work and respect the context that it's in. Right. Years and. But I always left because, you know, in in 1885, when the first Victorian started to get built in the Quaker community of Haddonfield and it's a Queen Anne, you know, people were saying, I mean, how can they begin to think to build the houses beautiful as heaven? Right. You know, I mean, like and so new styles of architecture in traditional towns have been resisted forever. Yes. But they're the ones that start to like be appreciated and say over time. So for us, you know, designing homes that meet a family's lifestyle. Yes. For today. Right. Is what we should be doing in that case. So here it's a hard thing. I mean, would you guys having mostly new homes? That's a whole different. It is. And that's why, you know, just even in what we do together, different separately, but in the same type of background, I feel like it's actually more exciting to work on houses that are existing, that you have the challenges and that you are trying to, you know, make more beautiful, but maintain that original look and feel. And, you know, not necessarily blow them out or anything like that. But I feel like I enjoy that challenge more than I do. Just the throw them up square boxes, not a lot of character. Yeah. They all kind of look the same on the street. You know, I definitely prefer those beautiful time capsules, you know, and really enjoy working on that too. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I mean, I, I enjoy each type. In its own way. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the renovation work, when you have some limits, it does kind of make the design process a little different than if, you know, it's really, it's taste. Right. You know, I mean, the clients are bringing to the project the steps. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We don't get anybody who wants a Victorian home designed and we end up giving them contemporary house. Correct. That just doesn't happen, right? And as like even in the architecture field, like one thing I keep hearing a lot about it's like, oh, they just don't build things like this anymore. Like where is the character and where is the craftsmanship and why do you think we are cleaning things up? Obviously we live in a more fast paced environment and things take, people want things quicker and all that beauty and layers take a lot of time. But what's your thought process behind all that? Like why are we not taking as much time? I think for all the reasons that you just said is one of them, you know, it's a part of it. I think that flexibility is really important in new construction these days. Yes. And I mean, that is a sustainable thing. They're trying to appeal to multiple. And even as life changes, right? Yeah, like we do a lot of age and in place. And you know, I mean, the 1920s cottage doesn't, you know, adapt well to age and in place, right? And so, I mean, the newer stuff, I think if we can keep it flexible enough. That, you know, a bedroom can become an office, right? Then that's probably a benefit. But it's also the days in our world, the days of the gymnasium with a kitchen in the corner called an open plan are over. Yeah, which I do appreciate that part. So do I. I'm even talking about like the ornamentals and just all the like. You're talking about craftsmanship. Craftsmanship. Well, so there's craftsmanship in lack of ornament too. There is. And from the builder end, you know, another piece of trim to cover a gap is easier than spending the time from the, you know, rough ends to make sure that the tile's going to lay out properly, right? There's no gap. Right. And so it's a much more invested builder who is trying to meet close tolerances than covering sins, you know. But that's it. I mean, the, I think it's expensive. Yeah. That's true. And I'm not sure. I mean, like I'm sure down here, I mean, we're certainly going to wood in our, you know, natural wood again, you know, giving an earthy feel to buildings. Organic, eco, chic. So is it harder to put a bunch of one by one by 16 foot long together with the half inch gap between them, you know, than it was to put crown molding up? I'm not sure. But why are we being more streamlined is probably because we're just simpler. I mean, I think we are definitely simpler, right? I mean, especially after COVID. Yeah. It's true. If this was 10 years ago when I was coming, I'd probably have a suit on. Right. I know. I like that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. We are, I think we're, I think some of it's societal. And, you know, when I ride around and I, if I see a new home that is trying to appear. Old. Old. But that's a replica. Right. I also think it goes back to something that we talked about when we first sat down. Shop. Yeah. I mean, in high school, shop was something like big, huge. Right. I don't think any schools have shop anymore. No, they don't have shop. But what does everyone have? A cell phone. Yes. So they're not learning, people aren't learning the skills and the crafts. No. That they were years ago. Now they're learning how to search, you know, like, and social media and so the skills. And their expectations are different with social media. Right. I mean, that's, I would say, 10 years ago. Most of our projects were drywall and trim. Right. Right. And like special was, you know, a wall that was painted out of different colors to try to pop the wall. Right. Now the, the, the finishes budget is equaling the, you know, rough construction budget. So true. And you're right. Most people don't, I mean, there's a lot of people don't have that kind of money. I don't think people realize that either. But I don't think people realize it or even understand that. Well, I mean, why construction costs have gone to where they've gone, I think a lot has to do with people's expectations. Mm hmm. And I think that there's a lot of people who are below what they're saying, who aren't hiring interiors and architects because they think that all they can afford is drywall. Right. Right. And I, you know, I believe that architecture is the space. It's not the things. The things just surround the space. And so drywall is fine. I mean, we can create great space, you know, with that doesn't have to have a bunch of stuff. Right. Right. But I will, the replica thing is one of my pet peeves. Okay. I'm an old car guy. Right. Yeah. And I took my son to a Porsche swap meet and there were four 356s lined up and there were speedsters. Right. Like what James Dean died in. Like that. Gorgeous. Yeah. And three of them were like worn and rusted and, you know, and one was beautiful. Right. And I asked him, so which, which, which car would you pick? You know, of course he wants the gorgeous, the one perfect. Right. Right. I'm like, you just gave away a million dollars. I mean, that was a replica car that made the cars next to it look like they were trash. Right. And those cars are worth a million bucks. Is that crazy? Right. What a good analogy. So what I learned, you know, through that is the craft person in me can respect the effort and talent that it went in to making that replica. It should have had a different area in the show. Right. Right. Yep. It shouldn't be put next to something authentic. Correct. And so if that was in an area where we knew they were all, you know, replicas, then you could really dig in and say, man, the craftsmanship in this is really incredible, right? Right. And, but you take it over there and really what it made, it made all of these valuable relics seem less valuable. Look like you could just put them on a dumpster and take, you know, put them in a dumpster and take them away. So houses, I feel, are like that too. I think it's really important not to be putting replicas next to authentic pieces. It actually makes good sense. Yeah. I mean, and you see a lot of that in Palm Beach, like you drive down A1A. I mean, you appreciate the different, like kind of like how you said, of your town. You appreciate the eras, you know, from different historical time frames where they really highlighted architectural details in different ways. And I think it's important that, you know, we establish the difference between like developer now and architectural now, right? I know. There's a difference, you know, like soon, we will say, as soon as you see a McDonald's start to get those finishes, then they're done. It's a Starbucks, right? It's, you know, it's. Which with all the wood cladding and I know. So then, you know, it's done and you should be looking for the next thing. Next thing. Oh, I like that, Scott. And so that the rep book of the new intervention, if it's an existing neighborhood, we'll call it intervention, right? I mean, we're putting something new in a neighborhood. It's still got to respect the area that it is, right? I mean, and that's really important, I think. As you do travel and you go through different areas too, you can appreciate where people had that artistic, you know, intention, consistency versus some areas where how did that get allowed to be put here? Right. Right. Just like that makes no sense. That's kind of a place today. Yeah. But like if you go to a place like Princeton or Charleston, right? And you look at their ability to incorporate contemporary architecture into a historic context and make the whole place richer. Right. In Fire Hound. That's, I think, where we should be trying to get, right? And that takes some mistakes, right? It's real. So, you know, and those mistakes are just going to be knocked down anyway again, right? So it's the, you know, I mean, I think that's my feeling. And understanding what it is, I mean, it's like, it's psychology, you know, this from being an, you know, from interiors. I mean, you're trying to make a person feel a certain way about life in themselves. Yeah. Evoke emotion. You know, and some people are really touchy-feely about detail. Some people want as much sun as they can get because the vitamin D is just fantastic. So what is your process? Like, do you, I mean, do the, does it vary? Obviously it's going to vary if it's a new project or renovation, but what is your process when a new client comes to you? We start out in pre-design, regardless. And pre-design for us is gathering all the information we need to get started, having fun, right? So if it's a renovation, then we're doing the As-Built drawing, you know, we're surveying the house, doing the As-Built drawings, reviewing the zoning and external rules, and sitting with the client and generating a program and design brief. How important is it in that process when you're starting out to simultaneously be thinking and doing the interior design? Because most people look at it as, I'm going to hire an architect and I'm going to build the house, and then the house is being built. Now we're going to bring an interior person, which is what most people... Yeah, I mean, that's the typical process. Correct. And so, I can explain that perfect in our next phase, which is schematic design, right? Which is where we're having fun, right? I mean, so... Where you're laying things out, doing the floor thing. Pre-design is like we have the game plan, we have the playing field, you know, we have a little bit of, you know, we have a rulebook, you know, and then we start to have fun when we move into schematic design. So, just the understanding of how important it was to have a builder within me as an architect. Which is a big plus for whoever's hiring you. I began to understand the importance of having an interior person involved, right? And so, I brought an interior person into our firm. And so, typically the process is, you know, the architect designs something and then that brick is handed to the interior person. And the interior person takes a different brick and puts it on top of it. And that's what... And sometimes they want us to modify the brick, the block brick, blah, blah. But, you know, so it's not a continuous process, right? It's more kind of staged. My goal was to have an interior person involved in architecture. So, if this much is architecture of the project, this much is interiors at the beginning, right? And by the time we get over here, this much should be architecture and that much should be interiors, right? So, it's one process that tapers through. And that way, I feel like all of the deep thinking that we did in the beginning is transferred straight through and we're not challenging all the decisions we made in the architectural design process, right? I mean, that's the biggest thing. And it's really the impact that has on the client that drove me to do that. I mean, because we make them make tough decisions and they're making the decisions, you know? And so, if they got to go make that decision again in six months, it's just not fair. I know. And I feel like furniture layouts are such a significant part of the architectural phase of the house. When we do exterior, like, you know, outside living spaces and stuff, typically, we're starting with the furniture layout. Yeah. And then we'll figure out the building around it. Right. Right. I mean, again. So, your interior designing first. Space planning, definitely. Yeah. Right. And then Emily, my interior's person, I mean, we don't procure, you know, so we don't want to go to that level. Right. Right. But we do have design decks and things to share what our inspiration was, where we're hoping it to go, you know, and things like that to help, you know. I think it's a big mistake that a lot of clients and a lot of people who are starting and embarking. Especially if you're building a significant house. Doing a big remodel or building a house, don't think about that. And I'm thinking about it too late. And furniture is really, really important. You know, when I got involved with Tiffany a few years ago with the interior design, because she's been doing this for 25 years, a friend of mine, when I started, I joined her and working with her, he said to me, he said, Scott, I'm investing in houses. And I'm the guy who's putting the money up. And I got two different companies that I'm giving them the money. He's like, I'm going to stop doing that. But I want to talk to Tiffany. I'm, why are you going to stop? He goes, well, it's been profitable. But he goes, it's been so frustrating. What is frustrating? He's like, well, we, I did a house with them. I funded it. The house went up, but then it wasn't selling. So I moved into the house. He goes, I was in a transition. And I thought, you know, that's interesting. That would be a requirement, just like architects building should be a requirement. He's well, he moved in because he was part of the burn and maintaining that house while I was up to sale. And he says to me, he's like, I, what a wide opening experience. He's like, I said, I still don't understand what you're saying. He's like, I moved into the house. And the first thing that I realized is the kitchen didn't have a garbage pail. Like in any cabinet. He goes, I'm used to having a garbage pail next to the sink. Modern convenience. There was no garbage pail. He goes, and then in the master bathroom, I go in the shower. There's no place to put my shampoo. And he's like, I had to buy this rack that I had to hang from the shower head. And he goes, we're talking about a $3 million house that had no place to put shampoo. And he's like, on top of it, I could have fit eight people in this shower. He goes, but the master closet on the other side of the wall, he says, I couldn't even put all my clothes in. How was the husband and wife going to buy this house? The closet, master closet was so small. He goes, the shower should have been the master closet. He goes, but the architect who did this didn't look at this and design it from the perspective of a buyer. Unfortunately, development types of projects. I know, and I like how you used that development. Is it total or another animal? Yeah, they have a recipe. And as long as that recipe all, it doesn't matter if the eggs and milk go in first. That doesn't matter to them. As long as everything that's in there that they can check off the real estate listing, how many houses do you drive by that nobody's in? Correct. People will buy just about anything and be proud of it. So that's why I'm always cautious. And the other thing I like to bring up to clients all the time too is pretty much no matter what I've worked on in my life, it's in the half percent of the way the world lives. We better be damn grateful. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it better. Right. But when I hear a comment like, can you believe I have to live like this? I leave. Sorry, I don't think we'll work well together. That just blows my mind when somebody, the kitchen's not in style, but it was made done in the 90s. We get a lot of that. And it doesn't work for them now and it needs to be updated. But if you tell me that that's a hardship, I don't think you're going to appreciate anything we do. Yeah, that's a good thought process. And that people who expect, there's limits to everything we can do. Right? Yeah. I mean, and so with that, client managing client expectations. It's huge. Yes. Is the thing that that's the second hardest thing that I never thought I was going to have to do. The first is social media. Being in an architect, I never thought social media was going to be. Well, it doesn't matter what profession you're in these days. You have to know social media. Yeah. And then client expectations is tough. Obviously, you're doing very good job of since you just had a huge recognition with Forbes. Congratulations on that. Thank you. It's one of the top architects in the country. We were named top 200 residential architects in America. That's amazing. And then top 400 best in state. So that they broke up into states. So how did that feel when you were told that? Oh my, there was all, it's all, it's all, the whole process was like. Did you know that you were up for this? So in the process. So like in March of 2025, we received an email that basically said, congratulations, you've been selected to submit for, and Nancy, our office manager, came to me with it and said, do you think this is real? And I'm like, probably not. And you know, I stayed in, I like to work late. And so I started looking it up, you know, and I realized this is real, you know, and I'm thinking. What projects am I going to submit? Yeah. So did you have to submit? So it asked for one to three projects. And I had some questions because we didn't have a bunch of new houses and it would seem like it was asking for new houses. So I contacted the editor who has cell phone number. On the, yeah, it was crazy. And I'm saying, you know, are you looking for new homes? Are you looking for renovations? And he said, you know, it's interesting. We thought we were going to have more new homes, but we see a lot of renovation work on architects desks right now. So we're probably going to have to figure out how to do that evaluation. And so I'm like, okay. And he said, so the house had to be completed after, in 2019 or after. And he said, so when was Hadrow House completed? Which was like our best, like most academic project, you know, and I'm like, The fact he knew the name of it, right? Probably was sitting at his computer and Google the name that came up on his phone, probably. But so I'm like, that one we're definitely, I'm definitely going to submit. But you know, and so after that conversation, I'm like, I'm only going to submit one because I'm going to go to the work. I could ruin it with the others. Right. That's funny. You know what I mean? So they evaluated, how their criteria of decisions came out after we found out. They evaluated like 18,000 architects websites. Unbelievable. And picked 750 to ask to submit, to get to the 200. And they had real criteria that they were grading things by, which was really interesting. And I'm just like, the fact that they were able to find a small firm in Haddonfield, New Jersey, you know, we're not La Jolla. Right. It just blows my mind that they were, that the process that they came up with was able to kind of bring us to the top. So finally feeling some recognition for something that I've paid, my family has paid a big price for over the years was really rewarding. And it was a surprise. As a matter of fact, I found out when a friend of mine's firm got listed in North Carolina and put it out on Instagram. And I'm like, damn, I guess I'm not, I didn't make it. You know, then you go through the whole imposter syndrome thing that all architects and designers have where you're walking around going, well, why would you think you'd get in there anyway? And so then I opened up the app and I went to look for the list and Kirsten is the name. And so I'm Jay and Kay, right? Yeah. So as I'm flipping through the list, I come across my name. Oh, so you found it. That's how I found out. Oh my God. They don't want to release the list because you'll ruin it. Right. I mean, they spend a lot of money putting the list together. And you know, if it gets leaked, then they don't have a list, right? Right. And so that's how I found, yeah, I like jumped out of my chair, ran in and told my wife, jumped in the car and drove to my dad's house and told my dad. That's amazing. At 11 o'clock at night. Yeah, it was definitely. A career highlight. Yeah, it really was. And I didn't understand why. And then when the criteria, the evaluation criteria came out, which I think anybody creating a website should probably go look for that. Because they list how they credited things. One is that you value your work enough to have professional photography taken. Right? I mean, I think that's actually, you know, so they were looking for people who were very serious. That's something we lack on. We just haven't had the time on so many projects to. It's, um, Hadrow House, I was blessed with the famous architectural photographer out of Philadelphia. He used to work with, um, Robert Venturi's office. He was an employee in house photographer and he reached out to me and I was posting on Instagram. And, um, he said, yeah, I'd love to photograph this project for you. And I'm like, Matt, I know who you are. And I don't think I can afford, you know, and he, um, he's like, well, maybe you can. And, you know, he sent me a proposal and I was like, and so he shot our work. And, you know, there's, once it's well done photography, I think, you know, that's all that really, I mean, having his name credited on my work probably helped. I mean, I think, I'm sure, you know, um, so that's part of that commitment to your profession and your work that Forbes was looking for, you know, they were looking for people who were trying to create place, right? So they wanted a New Jersey architect who was trying to design for New Jersey, not designing California or Florida. Which I love. I really do. And I have such appreciation for. And then, you know, the other agenda they had when they did it was to be able to give clients looking for architects, you know, anywhere in the country, you know, so that they could have found 200 great architects and, you know, LA. Right. Right. So it's just a wonderful, it was a wonderful experience. So how has that changed the way you've approached future projects? Is it or no? It has changed how I approach my, like, my office and my profession and myself. I bet. More so than the work. I mean, the work has always kind of been what the work is. It's given me the confidence to speak out about it. Good for you. You know, like to talk in Haddonfield, like now we did an exhibit on art walk in Haddonfield about architecture, you know, and I feel like now it's not me sharing my opinion about how contemporary, well done contemporary architecture in a historic town can better the, you know, the visual richness of a community. You know, now, like if I would have said that three years ago. People have been like, huh? It's Jay's opinion. You know what I mean? Now with some backing behind my opinion, I feel more comfortable speaking out about how I feel about architecture and its impact on people's lives. And a special community. Yes. I mean, that's something that's going to stand the test of time. And I do feel like even in this field, like you do have to educate people along the way of the importance of the architecture. You know, as we said before, just the drywall can do anything, but I mean, it really does have value. And sometimes people don't understand that it's kind of our job to share and inform along the way. It definitely is, you know, and like, and it doesn't have to be expensive either. Like I use an example all the time. Like so a two by four cost like six bucks now or somewhere around there. Right. I always want to say a dollar 95 because that's what it was when I was building. Right. But now it's probably six bucks. Right. And where you put that two by four, you know, can make that two by four worth $6,000. You know, and it's not, it's drywall and two by four, sort of six is worth, you know what I mean? Like that's creating space. And if you put that two by four in a design that takes advantage of it, it's worth more than it's weight. Weight. Right. If you nailed across the front door, it's not worth anything. Right. It devalues the whole house. Right. And that's design. Yeah. I mean, the only thing that affects the value of that two by four is good design. If, you know, and so it doesn't just have to be on expensive projects. Good design works. So how do you balance creativity and a profitable business? I have a business manager. I've never been a good businessman. So you're putting more emphasis into creativity. This creativity takes time and time is money. At the expense of my family. My wife has paid a dear toll on, you know, waking up every morning at three o'clock to get to her job and, you know, carry the mortgage and the healthcare, why I was building, you know. Your business. And that wasn't told, you know, I mean, she's still doing that. Right. So this isn't like something where Forbes came along and now all of a sudden we're rolling in dough. Right. Right. It's just not the case. Yeah. The, so from a business end, I've always held to like thinking design is most important. And I guess I was probably willing to live in a trailer if that's what it took, you know, my wife wasn't. So that's why she, and so, you know, design science, you know, still staying up with building science is difficult and business practice, you know, and the business practice for me is the one that I care least about. And the bank account, I mean, I would tell anybody as advice, maybe the best thing I did as a business person was hire. A business manager. An office manager. I mean, she is on top of me and makes sure that, you know, everything is on my schedule. You're accountable. Yeah. And, you know, and the account, the bank account had, for the first time, is like amazing, right? I mean, and it's because there's some focus on it. Right. You know, we sit down every Monday. And, you know. Which has got to be a great reward on top of it all too, you know, that you can be creative and do what you do best and let somebody else. It's the thing that changed my life, you know, instead of feeling like underperforming and all the things that, you know, I mean, now I have a draftsperson who's a technical person as well, not an architect, but 20 years experience, residential construction, and an interiors person to contribute into the design work. And, you know, she doesn't just do interiors. Like when we're talking about architecture, like when we were looking at my stuff, you know, Emily's, you know, review exterior finishes with Emily, you know, like we want to make sure that everything is working together. Co-hexamely. And then, you know, so. So, when you design, do you use CAD yourself or you hand sketch or? I, depending on what's. Like Tiffany says everything's still by hand. So. She draws it sketch. Yellow bum won. Yellow bum, you know. I'm sorry. Rolls of trace paper. And I still like the canary yellow. I know that I don't like the white, you know. And I sketch a lot. And then move into, and it depends if Steve's busy doing construction documents, you know, the project that we need to get out. So, the office is like one person each, right? So, when that person's busy, you don't have somebody else. Doing it. Right. Yeah, we're in the same boat. That's still when it comes back to me. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I like to sketch. And then if I have somebody like even I'm only available for an exterior, I'll hand her a sketch and she'll develop the exterior. And then the review. I also don't hire anybody like that's not in the office. If you can't come to my office. No, I agree. We're the same way. The way you communicate and collaborate. And also. Just how you're on the fly with things in the office and. Yeah. Commit with an idea. And it changes. Or the client walks in or one of the contractors, the subcontractors, is what we can all work together. Yes. But from a business perspective. Yes. Right. Yeah. If I'm expecting that I'm going to have 100 hours in schematic design. Right. Yep. And somebody's working from home and they put eight hours and going in the wrong direction. Yeah. That's disaster. Yeah. Right. Well, that's where the profitability and also. Maybe I'm a control freak. But I'd like to be able. I'd like to be able to walk by a desk and or have somebody go, you know, Jay, can take a look at this. Right. But I think more than anything, it's just keeping the project on time. So the client's happy. So you meet in deadlines and so forth. Yes. By having everyone in house as well. It's a big help. We've sat and, you know, we've recently been hiring people, two people and interviewing people. We've got people saying to us, why can't work from home? I could do everything you want from home. But we're not looking for someone from home. Oh, no. But you have to understand, I can really do a lot from home. To sell us. Yeah. No, I just, and it's not that they're not going to work hard. And then it's just not part. I mean, and that might have to change someday. Right. I mean, I'm not. No, the collaboration of the team and everyone being in the same office. That's where design is so fluid, you know, too. And also, I think it creates a funness. Oh, it does. I want to live in studio that I was in in college. Yeah. That's the environment that I create. So what advice would you give to an individual now who's, let's say they're graduating from high school, getting into college, thinking about a Korea? What should they be thinking about? As far as architecture goes. Yeah. That's a hard question because architecture is chained so quickly. Over the last 10 years. Right. When I came out of school, we were still hand drawing. I had hoped that I could get through my career before having to learn auto-cat. Right. Right. Well, that didn't happen. Right. I still don't, I do do sketch up. Right. Yeah. 3D and sketch up, but I don't do Revit and things. Yeah. So, and I'm hoping that I can get through the end of my career, which I, that's when I die. I'm not going to stop working. Same thing. To me, this is my life. This is what I like to do. Right. So, and I'm not a fisherman. We're a golfer. So, yeah, that's what I would recommend. The technical. The beauty of an architectural education is it's well-roundedness and problem-solving. Right? It's about, I mean, architecture is a problem-solving activity. Right. And so, with those skills, you should be able to put that problem-solving to good use. Into any kind of situation. Right. And so, architects are very valuable outside of architecture, and it's amazing how many architecture students don't go into architecture. I mean, as far as respected profession, you know. Why do you think that is? It's a money thing. Yeah. I mean, it's a respected profession in a cocktail party. You know, in the bank account, not so much. Well, I feel like the development part of it probably had some say in that, because I feel like a lot of architects who have like gone on and become, you know, financially, they've taken on that dual role of developer architect. I mean, I think every architect has to make a decision on what they, you know, I was driven by design, and some are driven by business. Correct. Yeah. And, you know, I say a lot, because in New Jersey or South Jersey, Philadelphia, pizza is a big thing, right? Pizza. Yeah, right. So, a lot of times, I say, you know, if I wanted to develop a business to sell drawings like slices of pizza, I would have opened a pizza place. I could have eaten my, you know, anything that was, I couldn't sell, I could eat, you know. You can't eat drawings. So, with that said, would you expand your business? Do you look to grow it in any way? I would, you know, market that's better than now. Yeah. Right. I would love to have a young architect who was ambitious to learn. And mentored. And mentored. I mean, I, that is a lot, I enjoy that a lot. I enjoy having interns because it makes me speak out loud what I'm thinking. So, my design process becomes evident to me because I have to explain it to somebody. Whereas, if I don't have to explain to somebody, it just stays inside. So, you like having interns. I love, I work better with people than I do. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's interesting because this morning before 7.15 or 7.30, we had our twins at their school. We had to go see their college advisors. Their college advisors at high school. And basically the conversation was about the courses they're taking because their sophomore's next year, junior and senior. And the school is very focused on academics and college and what colleges are you thinking about. And one of our daughters is very interested in architecture. She really loves it and she wants to continue her architectural classes. And I found it interesting as the counselor said in senior year, you know, internship. And I was like, great. Because I, when I went to college, I took an internship and it was the greatest thing that I ever did. And, you know, I said to them, do they have the school picks what the interns are? Right. What the internships. And I said, well, she only wants to be an architect. Will it be an architectural company? She's, well, maybe not necessarily. I said, that makes no sense. Yeah. I said, because I think an internship and an architect's firm would be great for her. It's not always easy to find. Well, I asked her, I said, if we can help get an architectural firm that will take her on, will the school, they were saying yes. And, you know, and then she was talking about their, her electives, you know, the not necessarily most important classes. And I said to my daughter, I said, you should take a multimedia. That's my background. I said, take a class about, you know, film. So you learn about a camera and an aperture and f stops and lighting. Because when it comes to sketch up and Revit, if you have those lighting skills, you're going to be. It's huge. So big. Yes. So impressive. Yeah. I mean, I think anything where you're working through a process and learning how to learn is that no matter what AI does in the future and all that kind of stuff, you're always going to be valuable if you know how to think. Totally. Well, that's what AI is really trying to take away from us. It's our ability to think. But there's still, you know. Are you concerned about AI for architectural? Concerned about AI for. Affecting the industry. For humanity. Yeah. Well, that's a whole conversation. And podcasted itself. But you think it's going to affect the architectural community? I think that there's a chance. Yeah, I think it definitely will. I mean, is it now? I think it's just tools. I think AI is just a tool. That's the way I'm looking at it. Yes. Trying to. But it could affect the business of architecture, right? Are people going to be satisfied with good enough or, you know, when we take a client through a design process, our goal is to make them understand exactly why the building is the way it is. Right? Right? Like if you've got kids in the house for two more years and, you know, you come in every day and trip over their shoes, you know, and we're going to take on a project, you know, and that makes you angry, you know, and we're going to take on a project and it's going to cost you $50,000 more for us to move those shoes. If you're okay with tripping over them, then I, as long as you know you're going to trip over them, I'm okay with that decision, you know, but when you walk in and kick them to the side, I don't want you to say that damn architect, why didn't you think about this? Right. I want you to think that damn architect told me this was going to happen, but it's worth the $50,000 for another two years to kick them aside. I like that. I mean, I really like to have clients informed about how they're spending their money. You know, it's not a car. You can't just go to the store and get a car. You can't get in and drive down the street and say it's too slow. I can't see out the back window. You know, it's the only way to do it for me is to generate alternatives. That's great. And then we can have a conversation like, okay, over the kitchen's far away from the garage in this one, but it's got great light and a great view of the pool. And you know, and over here, it's closer to the garage where we can have a mud room maybe that's better, you know, maybe even a utility room and, you know, getting the groceries, which everybody seems to be afraid of that washing windows. I'm like, so when was the last time you washed your windows? Yeah. Yeah. We have those same conversations. So you mentioned your daughter lives in Edinburgh. Yes. My son is a California, or a Florida poly up in Lakeland studying electrical engineering. And my daughter is in Edinburgh. So I guess you visit her there? She is, she went, did undergraduate in Galway, Ireland. Unbelievable. So she was in Galway for like six years. She did her undergrad in her master's degree. Oh my goodness. And then she went to the University of Edinburgh to do her PhD. And she's defending her, I think they call it a Viva there on the 20th. So she's not coming home. Not coming home. So have you been there? That you visited? I try to get two times a year. So has going there and seeing, has that affected your? Huge impact on my design. I bet. Yes. And what was it? The cap and it not. One thing that I really appreciate is they seem to think of things less emotionally. Right. So if they have history, that's history. Oh yeah, absolutely. So to them, it's not so precious necessarily because they've got everything. So if it's, they're more like a fire department, right? If you've got equipment on a truck and it's not serviceable or usable, it's got to go off the truck. Right. The last thing you want is something that, so they're really, fire departments are really good at throwing stuff away if it's not repairable or sustainable. Right. So what I noticed in Edinburgh is that like, it seems to me, and this is just me, you know, I haven't read anything about this, but it seems to me that if it doesn't work, it goes. Right. It either works or it doesn't work. Yeah, I don't try to make it. And I think they feel the same way about energy. Right. Like we were traveling north of Edinburgh on the North Sea and we stopped at this castle that was falling apart way out on the water, you know, and I'm like marveling at this, you know, from. Architectural wonder. Yeah, like, and just the beauty of the whole thing, right? And then I looked down and I noticed there's a photovoltaic cell. A what? A solar cell, a solar panel down on the ground next to the castle with a light to shine on the castle for a night. Right. Here we'd be like, you can't put that technology in front of like something historic. And then I look up and in the North Sea everywhere, there's windmills. Yeah. Right. You can't do that here because it's going to ruin the visual, you know, character. I'm staring at this thing that is absolutely phenomenal from many, many, many years ago. And the impact, then, you know, you look, then they have pocket nuclear facilities, you know, that are further up the coast and a gas, you know, well, and then it's like whatever's, and this could be my projection onto the way things are. I don't know this, but it seems to me like whatever works is what we're going to use. Right. You know, I mean, yes, we can make it beautiful. Yes, we can do those things, but we're not going to save something because we have some romantic vision of our past. Right. You know, but they do save stuff. There's, I don't mean to say that. It's not easy to build a contemporary building in Edinburgh. Yeah. But there are great contemporary buildings in Edinburgh. I mean, some of the additions and things they've done are just really sensitive and phenomenal. Like I stand there and I mean, I'm a geek, you know. Yeah. And it's wonderful. My daughter knows that. She like schedules our trips to go see things. So you can. Yeah. Where she can buy wool and I can see architecture. Oh, that's wonderful. So. Well, that's a great, great, like trips are definitely, you know, inspirational. And they definitely enhance how you come back from them and you like are reinvigorated for many reasons. We just came back from London. You know, one of the things that I've mentioned is the number of times to number of people as we went to see a friend who's living in a house 522 years old. Right. Set off from Haddonfield. Mind boggling. We're not that old. Mind boggling. That's twice as old as anything. It's crazy. Two times older than the United States. Yes. But walking into the house and like Tiffany says a little time, there wasn't a straight wall. Nothing was straight. Nothing. But what, like my, my, my, my hands and my arms were standing on end. Just being in the house, sitting there going, this house is like 522 years old and it was like the coolest little house. Yeah. It is. There are architecture. Like how is this place still standing? Yes. Like what? Yeah. It's funny. Their detailing. And it looked. Their detailing was a little better than ours. You know, and our friend, she had renovated the master bathroom. So the master bathroom had a more modern. Oh, it was still like on par with the house like that though. Like she did it right. Yeah. And again, I think that that's appropriate in, in the, you know, because it offset, it's not trying to, if you went in it and tried to mimic what had been there, it would, it would take away like, you know, if you went in and you said, okay, so some of this trim is, you know, 500 years old, that you'd question like what's new and what's old, right? It's better to distinguish between the two and allow what is really special to stay. But it's also interesting how the architecture in, you know, areas have been inhabited forever by, you know, European types, right? Right. It's, it's what worked. You know, I mean, it's not like, they didn't have the luxury of saying, I want to, you know, there's a window tax and, you know, back in the day. And so like, you got tax on how many windows. Well, now you see a lot of glass in a hazy, cloudy area, right? And, you know, I think maybe it's a reaction to being told that, you know, if you had more windows, you had to pay more money. Well, it's just, you know, flying back and not the two of us talking about the house and just our trip and so forth. And then coming back to the office here and we look at like, you know, how many projects we get, the house is 30 years old. Okay. The client wants to knock the house down and how many people are just buying houses, knocking them down, putting new, because it's 30 years old or it's 40 years old. You know, why did this house last five, not just that house, the whole area, all the houses in that area are all four and 500 years old. And they all, and they don't look like they're four or 500 years old. No. The Thatch Drupes kind of, that's still different. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, they, I think they just feel differently about where they live, how they live. And, you know, it's, you know, it's a cultural thing, you know. But all of the cool things we see there, usually it's like, you know, you're walking through a little alley with these great laid stones, you know, that have a pattern to control the water runoff, you know, and, you know, and they're stepped so it ripples so it doesn't get a good flow. Everything is intentional. I know. Intentional is the, you know, appropriate and intentional. Yeah. That's how I judge design work. And I love that. Well, a little, I thought it was very cool looking and I had the question like, what is that? And at each corner of the house positioned really well was like a, Wine barrel. A wine, a big wine barrel. Those are the water. And so the gutter from the house came down into the wine barrel and at the bottom of the barrel, there was a spicket. And, but it was the way it was built and set up. It looked like it was part of the house and looked very cool and it was like, what is that for? What it, she's like, so we don't have, we don't really have public water, you know, that's how I water my plants. Right. This is what he means, how do you water your plants? She's like, that's collects the water and the spicket. I take my, my garden bucket and I fill that up and I water my flowers. That's how I water my grass. That's how I, It seems like there's some simple ways of life. Yes. You know, that they have that we are trying to convince our society to invest and do. And I mean, it's common sense stuff. Yeah. You know, I mean, sustainability is an issue that we, you know, environmental change, you can, we can talk about who's responsible for it and all that kind of stuff, right? Right. But we can't change, we can't question whether it's changing. Yeah. I mean, if it's not changing that, that's just ridiculous. That's the most constant thing is changing. And so we should be doing things to try to progress that and make sure, and they're great at it. I mean, that's, those buildings have, have, have been able to withstand a whole bunch of, you know, change changes. And that's why they're still there. Yeah. You know, and it's, It's a great profession to be a part of. It's a great thing to be able to appreciate where the growth of architecture has translated all over the world, right? Yeah. I mean, it's, And to have our own part of it. Here. Yeah. I mean, architecture is that. I mean, it is, it's, it's, it's so much that like no one person can kind of, everybody specializes in a part of it. Yeah. Right. I mean, there are architects who study societies and design towns and try to figure that kind of stuff out, you know, of course, if they go to Europe, then they realize that we regulate everything here that we can't, that looks great and is fun there. Like that little alley that you go through that has this little, cool little pub at the end. Yeah. You know, and here, if we tried to do that, oh, you can't do that. No, can't do that. You know, you know, yeah, the walkways gotta be, the walkways gotta be, you know, 40 feet wide. Right. It was even the food that we eat here. We didn't, we didn't go, but I had some friends, two friends kept the telling me, you go to McDonald's and when you're in England, they go, you want to go to McDonald's. So my kids only want to go to McDonald's. They're like, if you go to McDonald's, the burger tastes like it did, like in the 1960s and 70s. It is totally different than what it is here in America. Yeah. And I'm like, really? That's funny. I was. They're like, yeah, it's because it's the, in the United States, they've put all these different things and they've changed the way in which, what's going into our food. To put things a little bit in perspective though, I think, you know, when I'm over there talking to people, they're amazed by what we do. Of course. Yes. Without it. So a little bit of it is like that, you know, that distance and seeing things that are just different and responding to that. And, you know, I'm glad we have that curiosity. Right? Isn't that the truth? We're grateful for it. Yeah. If we didn't, I mean, it would be the same old, same old, same old. Same old, same old. Well, Jay, thank you. But do you have an Instagram? Are you on Instagram? Yes. So what is your Instagram for anyone who's listening or watching? Jay Reiner, an architect. Yeah. And your website is the same? It's the letter J, you know, when you're named Jay. Right. I know, which my brothers used to tell me, you know, mom and dad didn't love you enough to give you a name. They gave you a letter. Because my real name is Jay. I never heard anyone say that. That's funny. So the letter J, Reiner architecture is at .com. .com. Is our, so the letter J. So we encourage people to follow along on your growth and Forbes and all that fabulousness. Thank you for joining us today. We're hoping for 2026 too. I'm a little nervous. I was going to say keep it going, right? You have to resubmit. Oh yeah, new project, I'm sure. It's, yeah. So stay tuned. Yeah. Thanks for being with us today. Thank you for joining us on this rainy South Florida day. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to the iDesign Lab podcast. Have a great day.