Why You Keep Needing Reassurance w/ Béa Albina | Szn. 4 Ep. 16

Hi, it's Dr. Jen Kennedy. I'm a sexologist and couples therapist. The Pleasure Project is about sex and relationships. That includes desire, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, exploration, toys, and trends. Sometimes I'll enlist other experts. Sometimes it'll just be me. We'll increase your insight and enhance your pleasure. So tune in. Ever find yourself looking to your partner to tell you you're okay, desirable, or enough? That's emotional outsourcing. It's a sneaky buzzkill for intimacy. Today I'm talking to Bea Victoria-Albina about how this pattern forms, how it shows up both in the everyday as well as in the bedroom, and how to reclaim your voice, your boundaries, and your desire. So tune in. All right, so welcome back. My guest today is Betris or Bea Victoria-Albina. She brings together science and the sacred. She is a family nurse practitioner, somatic experiencing practitioner, and she is also the best-selling author of emotional outsourcing, a guide to overcoming codependent, perfectionistic, and people-pleasing habits, which we are going to unpack. With over 20 years of experience in health and wellness, Bea works as a somatic life coach with a focus on helping humans socialized as women, reconnect with their bodies, regulate their nervous systems, and rewire their minds so they can break free from codependency, perfectionism, and people-pleasing. She's also the host of Feminist Wellness Project and brings a deeply integrative approach that bridges somatics, neuroscience, and emotional healing. So today we're diving into emotional outsourcing, nervous system regulation boundaries, and how all of this directly impacts our relationships, intimacy, and sense of self. So welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so there was a couple of keywords in here that I was like, ooh, that's new. We don't have all of these little touch words necessarily in our lexicon on a regular basis. So emotional outsourcing, let's start with defining that. Yeah, with great joy. So it is a term I came up with with the hopes of it replacing codependent, perfectist, and people-pleasing. And emotional outsourcing is when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three most vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to self. Yeah, and I can see that happen over and over again already, right, in my clients and in the world. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's sort of farming out how this happens. And so also we're going to play this game where, because I'm a sex therapist, so much of this, how does this come back to either relationships, primarily intimate relationships, right? How is it play out in the bedroom? For sure. So what led you to focus on this particular pattern? And also I know you specifically focus on people socialized as women. Yeah, after a long time in health and wellness, I really just saw this pattern playing out as the pattern under the pattern under the pattern in my patients' lives. Like in clinic, really saw it playing out in correlates with IBS, with autoimmunity, issue after issue and syndrome after syndrome, really seeing this chronic socialized and conditioned story that we need to self-abandon ourselves, right? Like light ourselves on fire to keep other people warm kind of vibe, really being part and parcel of people's chronic health concerns, which makes nervous system sense, right? And we can tease that out more. And I found that it's really what turns my brain on and what I'm most excited about is helping people to uncover how this is alive and present in their own lives and doing this really important work to build a new way of relating to self so we can relate to one another in a new way so we can be a greater and more present part of liberation for all. It's interesting because I know exactly what you're referencing when you say emotional outsourcing. Yeah. And yet I see it happen with both men and women. I'm never saying it doesn't. I'm saying that my focus is working with women, honestly, because men don't listen to me. Whether I'm in clinic wearing a white coat with a prescribing pad in my hand or as a coach, I don't want to deal with the pushback that I've gotten my whole career of like, well, are you sure? Well, which is different than a woman advocating for herself and saying, well, I read a study to which I say, this is teamwork. This is cooperation. Let's talk about the study. It was too many years of men challenging me because they want to have a pissing contest in a clinic and I'm 0% interested. So my focus is women. Yeah. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Because he does it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. And so the emotional outsourcing because, yeah, the interplay, right? It's like people in relationships in whatever configuration. There's interdependency that makes sense and that is healthy. Yes. But the codependency when you slip over into that category, you're not healthy. And so looking at that overreliance or literally abandonment of self to have the other person caretaking emotions or doing, I mean, old Al-Anon saying like, right, having someone do for you, doing for them what they can do for themselves. That's kind of more classic definition. But what else do you see? Like what are some common signs that someone is emotionally outsourcing? Yeah. So I just to further our definition because we're nerds here. Codependent habits. And I always talk about these as habits, as survival skills, which I think is a really important shift in the lexicon that I think absolutely has to happen. We can't keep talking about codependent. There's a function of it. Right? It serves. Oh my God. It's so brilliant. It's so amazing. You've been called for little kid you that you came up with people pleasing as a way to get through. Like, wow, way to go. Let's teach you another way to live now that you're grown, but like, wow. Right? So codependent habits are managing other people to attempt to feel safer. People pleasing habits are keeping others comfortable to attempt to avoid rejection. And perfectionist habits are controlling yourself, your capital S self, to attempt to earn love. And so if we then look, yeah, what are the signs? How does this play out? Is it me? In our relationships, we feel wildly responsible for other people's emotions. So you can't relax if someone's upset or if you're out to dinner and you love your meal but your partner doesn't, you're not enjoying dinner. You're worried about them. You're in their problem managing for it, living them for it, taking it on as your own and ruining your own night because they're upset. You feel this compulsion to fix things for other people. And this is largely because other people having emotions sort of writ large other than happy, content, joyful at some point felt risky often because it really was. And so we'll do anything. We'll bend ourselves into pretzels to keep other people from having feelings. To that, we constantly apologize even when we've done nothing wrong and we're not even Canadian. We just, I'm sorry, I'm right though. It's true. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Right? Yeah. And it's tolerating their discomfort and witnessing it and being able to say that's your experience over there, especially like with the example of a meal. Something as simple as like, I really like my meal or I've been to like a concert. You know, I'm there with somebody and I really like the music and they don't. And it's like, we're going to be here for another hour and a half. Can I enjoy the music when you don't? I've been on the other side of that. Right? It's like, okay, I'm going to just get through it and do the best I can. But it's like, do we have to ruin both nights because of this? Well, in emotional outsourcing, we do. Yeah. Right? Because the person who is the most upset, the identified patient in the family gets all the attention, gets all the care, gets all the focus. Yeah. Right? And I see this play out sexually when if one person is anxious and anything goes wrong sexually, then not only does the sex not go, but then the emotional pullback that happens and the focus goes to taking care of, you know, the collapse, the inner collapse that occurs. Like, so not only can they not pivot and do something different, but then it becomes all about the, you know, shame and the frustration because it didn't work. Right. Which then perpetuates the fragility, the fragility narrative of the person who's upset or anxious. Right. Right. So it hurts both partners for sure. Right. Yeah. For sure, for sure. The emotional outsourcing because then the person who is, you know, on the other side of that feels like they're caretaking when they're like, I'm actually kind of pissed. Oh my God, it's so common. Yes. Yeah, we're caretaking, we're soothing, we're taking self and we're shoving it so far down in a way. Your authentic wants, your authentic needs, your authentic desires, they're not appropriate. They're not suitable to your actual life because a life has been built that you're not present in. Like your real self is not in the room. So free and open sexual expression. Yeah. I don't know who she is, but I don't think she's in that room. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, also you can't be playful and exploratory and adventurous if you think that there's potential for collapse and fragility. Right? For sure. It's like you actually have to be kind of vigilant. 100% hyper-vigilant is what I see in my clients. Life is about performance, appeasement, approval and not realness. And what is healthy, happy, fulfilling sex, but the most realist thing? Sex is really weird if you pause and think about it. I mean, sleeping is also really weird. Like why are we doing? It's all weird. What are you doing? Justiculating wildly. It's all very strange. And if you can't be in the freer form of self that allows you to see the silliness of it all and the ridiculous of it all, and you're telling this story that we've been trained to think. No one's throwing darts at nobody's head here, right? We've been trained that you have to look a certain way, smell a certain way, behave a certain way, perform a certain way. Yeah. But it's just, it is in the ether and it does get reinforced. And the impact on desire, on attraction, on sexual dynamics is just profound. And it creates anticipatory anxiety and it just deepens the problem. Oh, sure. It's quite the crevasse to fall into. Right. And the fawning in your whole life, which is that nervous system, learned state of appeasement, like Bambi, batting her eyelashes. If the questions you're asking are, are they happy with me? Am I doing this right? Am I okay? Am I enough? Am I not enough? Well, being chosen, being approved. Sure. Do you love me? Am I good enough? Right. Right. That question constantly being asked in a thousand different ways. For sure. Like, it's like a, it's like a hole you can never fill as a partner. Right. Because it's not actually not a partner's job to fill. Right. And yeah. And the core reason beyond that, that of course you can't ever do it, is we are so not self-referential when we're in emotional outsourcing that until we can remember that skill, nothing will change the way we experience life. Right. The challenge is that when you're in that, it's like, I think that people are so inclined toward, right, it's the external locus of control. Of course. Right. It's that belief that I have to get, I have, my okayness is contingent on you making me feel better or love being reflected to me or something going well. Right. So, instead of, instead of what? What's the solution? Yeah. Being your own North Star is the alternative. Right. Where your focus is, I was just coaching about this. A woman's going on vacation with her husband who's sounds a bit obstinate to put it politely and she's like, I know every night he's going to want to eat whatever. I'm going to say pizza. And I'm not going to there for that. And I was like, so you go eat something out. And I watched her brain just exploded. I can, but I could, but he want, but I can't. And I'm like, yeah, girl, you go get sushi, you go get a hamburger, you go get whatever the hell you want for dinner and meet up with him after. I'll meet you at the bar by the hotel. See you in 30, see you in an hour. We're so other focused that the notion of I don't want the same thing that you want for dinner. So you take care of your needs. Right. And I'm not going to arm wrestle you to have it my way, but we're each going to like, take care of ourselves. Do you? Do you? And let's meet up with love and care. Let's meet in the middle. And it's actually interesting because when I think back to when I've been with people that do that, it's really attracted. Oh my God. It's so hot. It's not like it's so hot. It doesn't, it doesn't anger me. I've actually had friendships where I'm like, but wait, aren't we all supposed to, I mean, I want some, I want some consideration. Sure, of course. But there is this thing of like when I'm with partners that take care of themselves. It's, yeah, I find it actually quite attractive. It's a very sexy thing to be with a grownup, right? With an emotional adult who is emotionally adulting. Because when you know what you want and you can, and you can express that like in the world, you know what you want for dinner. Right. There isn't that ambivalence, you know, right? There isn't that like, you're not asking me to guess. That's the big thing for me. What do you want for dinner? Oh, I don't know. Whatever you want. Okay. So I need to guess what you want. I need to come up with all the ideas completely by myself. I need to circumnavigate the globe to get us there and you're just not participating. What is less sexy than appeasement and non-participation? Get out of town with that. Yeah. I get it every once in a while. You don't know what you want. But I'm talking as a gestalt, like as a way of being in the world. We think, unless people pleasing, whatever you want, but I want you to want what you want and I'll want what I want and we'll meet in the middle. That's a balanced, fair, loving relationship. Yeah. Have a steak in your life. Like decide a steak, a hamburger, sushi. That was good. Come on. But yes, have a steak in your life. But really say this is what I'm about and this is what I want. Because saying what you want and meaning what you say is resentment prevention. And what is less sexy, more less intriguing, right? And like, well, the last 30 years I've eaten steak on Fridays and I didn't want to. Right. What are you talking about right now? You're resenting me because you didn't speak up. And again, I will say it out loud. I am judging no one. I have done it myself. And we need to find another way to relate. If we want the healthy, fulfilling relationships, I know we all want at the end of the day. Yeah. And I think that there's the go along to get along. But ultimately you can't trick your nervous system. No. And you know when you're selling out and you're certainly not going to want to be intimate with somebody unless it's like an angry fuck, you know, which some people can get behind occasionally. Generally, you want to be close to somebody that you like and you respect. And if the relationship isn't flowing because you don't have mutuality, then your nervous system is going to be like, no, thank you. Either it's going to be like, I don't respect you or you're pathetic or I resent you. So you know what I mean? There's flavors. And so that's what I'm usually looking for when people are coming in. I'm like, what flavor is the no? Right. Yeah. What is it? Do you not like each other? Do you not respect? Yeah. Yeah. What is this? I coach on that all day of like, please stop saying yes when a grown man asks you to be his mom. Right? Like around this cotidian bullshit. Like, no, no. Figure it out. I'm not making you a list. Like that whole emotional labor thing. That's part and parcel of emotional outsourcing. Yeah. And we just need to say no and let him fail and let him figure it out. It's interesting though, especially with couples. I see a lot of older couples and I feel like there's been like these agreements where he's also taking in heterosexual couples. He's taking responsibilities more in the financial realm and she doesn't want to look at finances and she doesn't want to do certain things too. And so she acts helpless in ways that she is not. And so they both have sort of like given up certain responsibilities and so they kind of pigeonhole themselves in these ways. Right. But that I don't love. I mean, whatever works for them. But then also sometimes they get in these strongholds of like where he needs sex to feel emotionally connected is what he will say. And she needs attention to feel emotionally connected is what she will say. And it's like, well, I need, you know, and I'm like, okay, well either of you can enter this circle at either point. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. If you're choosing a stalemate, that's on y'all. Right. I mean, it is, you know, it's sad to think about all the socialization and conditioning that led women to say, oh, I don't want to look at finances. I don't want to think about that. Right. Because he's this handle that's right. Like it is this profound, it's giving up a lot of agency. Like an awful lot of agency. And then right, why would you be your most vibrant full self in the bedroom? It doesn't track. And that flip that sometimes happens where he has all this responsibility and yet then he collapses and sort of wants her to take over and be in that, that leadership role erotically. Right. Right. Yeah. Meanwhile, when we can all have that, that sort of gravitational center be within ourselves, then we can come to everything in life from that grounded, solid, authentic sense of self. And I understand and have a lot of empathy for and love for and care for the fact that a lot of people have never done that. You know, I work with a lot of women in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s who say, I have no idea who I am. You know, Perry Menopause, Menopause shook me awake. And I'm realizing like, who is this woman? Right. She's always been named the role. Good girl, good student, good teacher, good mom, good wife. Who am I? Yeah. It's my time now and I want to actually come into that. And how do I start? Where do I start? Like, what does that even look like? Right. How do I begin to not continue to give self away in this really, in this deep, deep way that I think most of us have been really trained up to do? Right? How do you work with these women because they're not leaving their relationships, right? They're trying to start to do something new and fresh, but like boundary setting or, you know, and I know you use somatics as part of your practice. So how do you start to use some of those tools and elements with them? So I start with the premise, the core belief and understanding that before you can shift behavior, you have to actually feel yourself as a separate person. Because again, we're not individuated from the role. That role confusion has become our identity. And so somatic practices are what can bring us back in. Because the more you practice noticing yourself, I'm going to say with less and less and less judgment towards no judgment, right? But just to make it clear, we don't start out with no judgment. We start out with a ton of judgment and we got to do the work, right? But the more you practice noticing yourself and not immediately hitting yourself over the head with baseball bat energetically, the stronger your internal reference point becomes. And that helps you to be the center of your own universe from which you can say, here's what I want in bed or, yeah, go get your sushi. I'm going to go get my steak in life. And right, like you can actually start to have preferences, right? So let's get very nuts and bolts. And I try to make this as simple as possible, but set an alarm on your phone for three times a day and have something come up that will draw your attention. Pause and ask yourself, what am I feeling right now? And then scan your body. Is there tension? Where is there ease? What sensations are present now? We are not doing this because we want an answer. Hold tight. Because 9.9 out of 10 people who are just starting this work are like, what am I feeling? Do I don't know? That's the whole point of do I don't know? What do you mean? I don't know. I'm going to run as far as possible from this exercise. Forget about it, right? And then double ease so with scanning the body. Where is their tension? I what sensation? What? Right. And so the goal is that you are hearing you, asking you a question that only you can answer because this is wisdom and knowledge and knowing that only you have. Because only you know how you're feeling. Only you know what emotions are present, what sensations are present. And so what we're starting to do, the new neural pathway we're building here, the new neural groove says, it is possible for me to know me. It is possible for me to be an independent animal, right? My own autonomous mammal in this world. And it's possible for me to know her, to like really know her. And then if after a week or a month or a year or five years, you ask yourself, what am I feeling right now? And this little voice in your tummy goes, sad, but it's showing up as angry because that's easier. Then wow. And if that never happens. Okay, cool. But it's the asking that starts to break, like do pattern interruption, which is vital because the emotional outsourcing is so, so deeply established for most of us. It's remarkable how few people know what they're feeling at any given moment. And to be able to delineate like you just did too, between sad and angry. Right. I have people do most of my couples, I haven't do a check-in. I have a structure that I like to use. Sure. And I actually hand them a feeling wheel because that's great. They're like, yeah. What? What is this? And they're like, good bad. Yeah. It's like, but to get to that. Yeah. I know what kind of grumpy. Yeah. It's like, but it takes a while to find those and to have permission to actually delineate, you know, variations on good and specifics. But I think that is so right on what you just said. I think that's wonderful because I'm so bad. Helping people really helping sounds like mostly women really understand that as a starting place to move through the world and a point of differentiation sounds right incredibly helpful. Yeah. And I've watched over the years how just such a simple tool, because I think we'll also write off something that's simple, but my issues are complicated. I need a complex answer, right? It's just another protective defense mechanism. We love it up and we keep moving. But it's I've really watched it be the entry point for people to wildly change their lives and it takes milliseconds because that's also the modern. Why I don't have time for that kind of thing. Yeah. It's like, but you do. And with awareness, you make different choices. You save time in the long run, right? Well, yeah. How many hours are you not spending in conflict? Or apologizing or eating what Homeboy wants for dinner when you want something else? Yeah. Well, because it is it is a gumby thing that women do so well of reconfiguring to make yourself like, you know, and it just, it's like you're constantly just doing things to accommodate and it's exhausting. It is exhausting. And it's not satisfying. It is not satisfying. And it's it's also not doing what you think it's doing in the minds of your loved ones. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's actually not even fruitful. Yeah. No, I was at an engagement party not that long ago. And the mom of this family is like pretty well known in our friend group. Like I clocked her as like the the martyr character of codependent behavior. Yeah. Like she always this is a very wealthy woman. And so everything's catered and there's housekeepers getting everything organized and when I'd go to her house for holidays, she'd show up all bedraggled her hair a mass still in pajama. Oh, I've just been so busy. I haven't been able to take care of me like she was going to get a trophy for it. Right. You're like, that's not true. Right. And then I'm at zero percent true. And then I remember at this party, they ran out of chicken nuggets. This engagement party for like 35 year olds, right? She got in the car. This is catered. She got in the car and drove to go buy more, meaning she missed half the party. And everyone kept asking, where's Mrs. So-and-so, where's Mrs. And then her sons doesn't have his. But in her mind, if she just martyrs hard enough, then everyone will will really appreciate her. Everyone will. Everything will be perfect for everyone. No one will be upset. I just I just need everyone to be happy. I just want my kids to be happy. Yeah. But we twist ourselves in ways that we end up missing the actual joy, which is presence, the actual gift, which is being there emotionally, physically, energetically. Well, and the trade off for that is that you have to tolerate other people's discomfort or situations, sometimes not being perfect. Right. And so what? The world goes on. That's part of why my focus is on safety and the nervous system. Right. Because when a part of us, when an inner child, when something within goes, they're upset, very bad, very bad, dangerous, scary, bad, bad, bad, bad, dying, bad, we're unable to actually take that next step. Yeah. To actually allow 1% grumpiness in someone, much less, you know, I've walked away from grownups having full on temper tantrums and just said, bro, you do you. If you want to behave this way. I'm getting in my Toyota and hitting the road. No, thank you. Not interested. But there's a, there's a chasm between those two things. And the work there is to fill the nervous system of safety, which has to start with being a differentiated human being. Cause if you're enmeshed, that's true. And his tantrum is your safety, is your, where we go at nowhere. Fast. And as a little kid, you can't, right? You listen. No, you can't do any of that. You just have to keep. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, you got to appease and appease and appease or go hide under the bed or whatever worked for you. Yeah. And that right there that you identified is why I want to change the language away from I'm a codependent person. I'm just such a perfectionist. Yeah. Right. Like, well, these people get rewarded for being a perfectionist. Well, okay. Well, we can bring capitalism in a second. But like, yeah, but my point is that these things get defective character, right? I'm just such so codependent. And it's seen as, as something wrong and bad. And like, yeah, the outcome sucks. I'm not out here being like, you know, what's great for your relationships. Quite literally the opposite. But, but the mechanism, I think needs applauded and celebrated in my, my programs. We like literally throw a party for our codependent parts because well done. Little one. Good job. Freaking go kiddo. You're, you're no dumb potato. Way to beat. And then because listen, you're going to take really good care of somebody you hate. Somebody who's just an F to up codependent. You know what I mean? And we have that pejorative relationship towards self. You're going to go eat the hamburger he wants. Cause well, who am I? I'm not going to take care of me now. Everyone else is always more important than the self you don't love. That makes logic. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then we are going to come back and jump into breaking codependency or people please. A quick pause here to share something that I've been working on that I think you will really appreciate, especially if you've ever felt confused or disconnected from your sexual desire. It's a self paced course that I created for women who want a better understanding of their sexual desire, especially if it's felt confusing, inconsistent or hard to access. A lot of us are taught that desires should just be there. Effortless, spontaneous, always on, but that is not the reality for most people. And when it's not, it can leave you feeling frustrated or like something is wrong with you. 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Now back to the episode. OK, so we're back. So what are some of the biggest fears that come up when people start to change? Yeah, I won't be loved. I won't be safe. I think they're they're very mammalian. They're very small mammal abandonment fears, you know, like, you know, every time I leave the house and every canine available is like, are you ever coming back? Are you gone for good? The cat couldn't care less. But the dog's like, listen, lady, listen. The cat the cat follows me to the door. Yeah, mine does that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's actually at the front door. Like when he hears the key, the cat's at the front door before the dogs. But anyway, I was speaking to stereotypes. Thank you for fixing that. But yeah, it's like this very puppy little kid. You know, you mentioned that adults can regulate themselves and kiddos can't. And I think it's you said something that pointed towards there. Kids need bigger animals to help them to feel safe because they are dependent animals. Right. And so I think what happens is if I start saying no, if I start not going above and beyond, if I stop overcompensating, overfunctioning, overdoing, self-abandoning, they will not love me. They will not feed me. They will not let me live indoors. Do you see where we're going? And then I'm dying cold and alone on a mountain top. And our adult brain isn't going to there. It's a much smaller energetic or part within us that's running that old cassette tape is playing fast as anything and is saying a piece instead of getting abandoned. So I think that's the real fear. And then we bring in the social constructs. Right. Like if I don't keep my spouse happy, they will leave me. What will everyone at church think? What will everyone in the neighborhood think? What will they say? Again, bringing back in the financial piece. Listen, I will be broke. Realness. Yep. I will be left. No joke. If I don't have sex, I will be left. If I don't have burgers, I will be left. Right. Right. You know, but some reality testing, which when you say it all out loud with somebody, yeah, kind of it starts to fall apart a little bit. Right. And so that's, yeah. Yeah. It's it's challenging when it doesn't fall apart. Yeah. I just want to name that not everybody lives, you know, like in a state like Rhode Island or New York or where it's 50 50, right? But most of the time, the fear is much larger than the monster that's actually under the bed. And we just need to turn the lights on because studies show that there are no monsters when you turn the lights on. And as it, you know, it's a it's a shifting it's a shifting kind of homeostasis, right? It'll it'll respond to change. I mean, some are like a hard break and it won't, but most relationships will change. And like we said, you know, some independence actually looks kind of attractive and I'm surprised often how when somebody gets healthier, it is actually healthier for the overall organism of relationships. Yes. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I need, yes. My brain just said a rising tide lifts all all boats, but you know, nobody needs to be citing Margaret Thatcher around here, but right. But but still, yes. Yeah. When we, but so it either lifts all boats or the inevitable fall apart comes and then we realize it that our fear was so much worse and the relationship tolerate some individuality. You being yourself. Finally. Can it? Well, yeah. And so what I have folks do is we're just doing this today is some values work. Is really getting real. When I am in my integrity. What are the values that are most important to me? What are the values that matter and that I hold most dear that really are the stuff of my life and my integrity? And here's a little tip because a client was saying not that long ago, she tries to do values work and she just circles them all. And I was like, well, start with crossing off. What doesn't matter to you? Okay. Right. It's like everything's good. Well, everything's lovely, but like, is that really, you know, like whatever. But so doing values work, really getting solid on what matters in your life. And then asking, this is a question that gets me cussed out often. So you know, it's a good one. Who do I have to be to be in this relationship? And does it align with these values? And so you go one by each. Honesty, respect, mutuality and just go through them. Can you truly be honest? Like the fullest iteration of honest and be in this relationship? Or do you have to be someone who keeps your mouth shut or who doesn't tell the whole story or who I'm fine. Don't worry about it. I'm fine. It's okay. No, it's totally, I'm not crying. It's allergies. I just have allergies. Don't worry about it. It's fine. And is that aligned with your integrity? Is that aligned with who you want to be on your last day on this planet? Do you want to look back and say, that's who I was? It's lousy work, but it'll, it'll bring you a life you want if you're, if you can go into it, you know, it's, it's so interesting. Like how people, I like the values frame. Somebody asked me recently, a woman asked me, is it normal to want to spend time apart from your spouse? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. Of course. You're, you're an individual. You, you have times when, yeah, you want to like have a room of one's own, right? Like, for sure. But I think it depends on the why as well. Right? Like, do you want time by yourself or do you want time away from them? And those are, those are different energetics. You know what I mean? Well, I think both can be true though and still healthy. For sure. You know, I think that sometimes you, I mean, I love traveling alone. I love, I love being with friends. I love doing, you know, early on in my marriage, my spouse worked in a different city three nights a week. She taught at a university down in LA. And so she was there three nights a week and then in our town four nights a week. And it was like the perfect setup. I was like, I loved it. I didn't even know how good I had it until we were in the same city seven nights a week. And then I was like, go back. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. I think it's just so individual. Like I just know when I can look back and there were times where I wanted time to myself, but it was really that I was in an unhealthy relationship and I wanted to get time away. So I guess that's what I'm talking to that pushing away energy versus that stepping into self energy. No. Right. Yeah. I think that's the differentiation I'm making because if someone in I need to not be with you versus time with me. Yeah. Right. Yep. Yep. That makes sense. And knowing like that can be in the same house at the same time even, but like I'm going to tuck away and knit or read my book or watch my show or whatever it is. Right. Like how do I want to spend this time that is meaningful and enjoyable for me with or without you. Yeah. I've been embroidering cats on everything I can find. My wife's like hiding her clothes at this point because she's going to wake up and they're going to all be covered in cats. And what's she going to do about it? Nothing. Excellent. You got to hide your clothes. I'm coming. I'm coming to your house next. Tiny little cats. It's so gratifying. It's so gratifying. That's amazing. It's so good. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. How does this work change someone's experience of pleasure both emotionally and sexually? I feel like when you're not present, are you really? Can you really? Like let's have a philosophical moment here. If you're not in presence, if you're not embodied, are you truly experiencing pleasure in its fullest expression? Let's discuss. Right. Like if you're not actually in the room, no, this ice cream is great. And you're habituated to the performance of pleasure. And if you're not in your body, are you truly having the pleasure? I mean, right? I feel like it's so fleeting. Like is the journey the destination? You know? Because it's like you can get off. You can get off on somebody with somebody. But it's mechanical. Right. But it's like if you want to have a true, a more pleasurable experience, then I think when you show up because you want to be there, because your relationship feels like you, when you're describing agency and you're both embodied and you're both choosing to participate in this way, it feels very different. Right? You're coming in with like a cleaner, more, yeah, like a more chosen. And this is also what I hear from partners who tend to be higher desire is that it's really about wanting to feel desired. You know, it's not about just wanting sex. It's not about the act of sex. It's actually wanting to feel like desired. And so I also see that when you can give a no and when you can have more clarity, then you can give a clear yes. And when you give a yes, it shows true interest and desire. Right. Right. And a spoken yes versus a yes that's grounded and embodied and present and comes corporally. That's like so mad. Atically present. Yes, is so different from, I think what we often say when we're outsourcing, we're appeasing, we're fawning, which is, yeah, which is sure. Fine. Sure. One of the first rules we made when my wife and I started dating was no sure. Do you want to go here? Sure. Absolutely not. That is not. Strike that. Sense. Gone. Gone. I'm not having it. I won't fuck with a sure or a fine. No, I'm not interested. Yeah. Right. I want the yes or the no. Right. And I think what that's speaking to is the desire for presence and embodiment. Be in the room with me or don't. But half in is not where not only there's no pleasure, there's no fulfillment for me at this phase in my life. Like not interested. Yeah. Yeah. And on the receiving end of this, this is a very empowered position. So on the receiving end of this, then hearing this as, you know, emotionally resourced, not outsourced partner, then the yes is a yes. It's a clear yes, which feels so different. I want you. I want to be here with you and participate in this. Yeah. So much more satisfying. So much more satisfying. And liberating for everyone. Because again, sure, leaves the other person on unsure footing. Yeah. Right. There's always the like a myth. Right. Because it then asks like it leads us to ask you like, OK, I mean, if you're sure, do you I mean, if you don't want to, I think we've all experienced that moment where you're like, yeah, all right, I'll go. I mean, you don't have to if you don't want to. No, I mean, it's OK. If you want to go, I'll go. Right. And these. It doesn't feel good. Beings. It doesn't feel good. It leaves. Yeah, it leaves this like unsatisfying kind of flat. It's a quagmire of like guessing games. And that's what we do in emotional outsourcing. And we think we're being kind because we're not being pushy and we're not. Well, you know, that then they can just decide what they want to do. But like, yeah, we're actually just creating a bit of a mind fuck for the people we love. Right. Because then they have to figure it out for us. And again, that's that's a fine thing for children to do. Right. If you're four, I have little to no expectation. That you're going to actually always know what you fully want to do. Of course. And you're going to change your mind 100 times when you're four. Right. Because you're a children. And that's part and parcel of being a children. Yeah. Right. But sex is sexy and sex is fulfilling and sex is satisfying when everyone's in their emotionally embodied self. Yeah. And they're emotionally mature self. And what we don't realize is the deep emotional immaturity that leads to emotional outsourcing and is created by emotional outsourcing. So so if where are you based? My business is in is in New York. You are in New York. OK. So if people want to work with you in some capacity. Yeah. How can they do that? OK. Yes. All my work is virtual. So OK. Singapore to Brazil. Bring it, baby. Yeah. Nice. OK. Yeah. It's really fun. My programs are super international. It's really fun. OK. And you do group programs and individual. I haven't been doing an individual as much lately because I was writing a book. But we'll see what the future brings. But you can go to my website, which is Bayatris, B E A T R I Z Albina dot com. You can learn all about my offerings. My signature program is called Anchored. It's a six month deep dive coaching, somatics, breath work, dance party, amazing community space with the intention of being a space for women and human socialized as women. I have a number of courses that are all about emotional outsourcing, about the nervous system, about somatics at all sorts of price ranges and lengths, because I really want to make my work as accessible as humanly possible. My podcast is called Feminist Wellness, and you can get it wherever you get your podcast. And the book is called End Emotional Outsourcing, how to overcome your codependent perfectionist and people pleasing happens. Perfect. Great. And we will put all that in the show notes as well. Perfect. So thank you so much. This is great. Thank you so much. This is so fun. All right. I appreciate you. Hey, it's Dr. Jen. Thanks for tuning in. If something in today's episode resonated with you, please take a moment to leave us a review and drop a comment. We'd love your feedback. It really helps support the podcast and keeps this content coming your way. If you're looking to dive deeper into pleasure, connection and self discovery, check out my Pleasure Circle course where we explore these topics in a fun, guided way. I also write a weekly newsletter with articles, insights and inspiration to help you live a more connect, pleasure filled life. And if you want to connect with me directly, you can message me on Instagram at Dr. Jen Kennedy or email me at drjenkenny at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.