who's more important the operators on the ground or the aviators in the sky it's hard to seize the objective without boots on the ground but if you can't get to the objective in the first place there's no mission at all the reality is that operators need aviators and aviators the operators green berets and the pilots of the 160th special operations aviation regiment share bonds that transcend their mos and their mobility platform live from the second annual stars and stripes Classic, I sat down with Chairman of the Green Beret Foundation, retired Lieutenant General Ken Tovo, and Chief Warrant Officer Sean McCormick, to talk about what it takes to build true interoperability between air and ground units, and why there's no such term as more important. Chief McCormick served as a lead pilot in the 160th SOAR after a career in the 75th Ranger Regiment. He also served as General Tovo's pilot while the general was the USASAT commander. Their partnership and friendship provides a rare perspective on the leadership, trust, and relentless commitment that defines special operations. Together, they shared how those experiences shaped their understanding of teamwork, mission focus, and the ability to take on any challenge. They also shared an unknown secret about GBF's upcoming POW MIA recovery missions with Project Recovery. The Stars and Stripes Classic is more than a lacrosse game. It's a moment to honor the Warriors who always step forward, the families who support them, and a community that preserves their legacy through the Green Beret and Navy SEAL Foundations. Special thanks to the Premier Lacrosse League for hosting another thrilling game. Follow the Jedberg Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on social media, listen on your favorite podcast platform, read on our website, and watch the full video version on YouTube as we show you why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge. General Tovo, Chief McCormick, welcome to the Jedberg Podcast. Thanks. Thank you. Happy to be back. Thanks, Joe. Yeah, back. You're a regular on the podcast. I'm a repeat of family. Sean, your first time on the Jedberg Podcast. It is. And it's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me, especially sitting next to General Tovo. Well, thanks for being a loyal fan. Thank you. So I know you've been watching a number of episodes for quite a long time, and we've known each other for several years now. You guys have known each other for quite a long time, and that's really going to be the focus of our discussion here and something that's come up in a lot of different conversations. So you had the opportunity to serve as the USASOC commander, where you presided over our ground forces, our Green Berets, our Rangers, but then also the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. And we have been absolutely fortunate to build a great relationship with the 160th for both the foundation and through the podcast. And I had the opportunity to go up in an MH-47 a couple of months ago, go out to the range, see the little birds which you used to fly, conduct some live fire training, and really have a great conversation with their commander, Steve Smith, and probably the top pilot in all of the U.S. Army, at least when we look at the amount of deployments that he's had. But we sat down with their chief warrant officer there, too. And that was just absolutely incredible conversation to talk about what it means to fly in these aircraft that sit behind us and then the air to ground integration. And we as Green Beret Foundation obviously are very focused on our guys on the ground who sit in the back and hop out of these things. But we don't get there without the aviation component. So I wanted to kind of start there. And, you know, we can almost really also start with your relationship because, Sean, you used to fly for the General. I did. Yeah, I had the unique opportunity after my time in the 160th flying the MH-6 Little Bird at the company level for 10 years. I had the opportunity to then go into the fixed wing community and down there at Ustaz Hawk Flight Company at Fort Bragg. I was very fortunate to be able to serve the last four years of my career in that unit and be able to fly General Tovo and General Beaudet during their commands there. It was a great honor, a great experience. It was a lot of good stories about that. When faced with a challenge, Green Berets adapt, overcome, and keep moving forward. Now's your chance to stand with them. Join the 1952 Society with a monthly gift of just $19.52 to provide critical medical devices for wounded, ill, and injured Green Berets. Your support fuels their recovery, helping them return to duty or continue serving their communities. A Green Beret's mission never stops. Neither should our support. Join the 1952 Society Today and stand with those who stand for us. And it takes a special pilot to fly that aircraft because it's, correct me if I'm wrong, it's the oldest C-12 in the Army fleet. It was at the time. Yeah, they got rid of it after you and I retired, but they have a newer one now. Oh, good. Thank goodness. I don't know if this is true, but I'm told it was actually a confiscated drug trafficking plane. I think General Brown, heavy beginning aviation community at the time, as USASOC commander, somehow finagled the C-12 for USASOC. A little bit of nostalgia back in that one. Yeah. On one hand, I'm sorry to hear that that plane is no longer a part of the fleet. On the other hand, God bless them for getting a new plane. I'm sure the current USASOC commanders and the USASOC flight detachment and are appreciative of having a newer aircraft. Well, sir, let's talk about the importance of that integration, because as you commanded both of these units, getting them together and understanding interoperability is really critical. So how do you define that? And from a leadership position, when you look at these two very different, very distinct units, but really when they bring the fight to the enemy, they're doing it together. What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, all of our soft tribes, as we call them, have their own culture and their own capability set. But when the team is really optimized, all those pieces and parts have a role, right? And whose role is you know the linchpin changes to base them on mission profile You know sometimes the most difficult and important part of a mission is actually just getting there Right. And so, you know, in that kind of a mission, that's the 160th. That's they're the key players. Obviously, we've got our Air Force special operations community that supports as well. But when you're talking in the tactical realm, it's usually the 160th that's getting special operators to the X or infilled into a denied area or wherever they have to go. And it's really, it's all about trust, right? The ground folks trust that the aviators are professional and ready to do the mission. And if they tell you that there's some challenges and you might want to think about this or that, they trust us to kind of defer to their experience. Planning is front and center. They really harp on planning as a Green Beret, but I would say that when you look at the planning that the 160 of pilots go through before any mission, I would say it supersedes the level of planning, at least I ever did for any operation. But talk about why that's so important and how being what you call customer centric is really the linchpin to success as a special operator aviation. Sure. Like with the interoperability, getting the ground force to the target. I mean, it starts with our I think many cases like I'll speak personally about that doing the forward L&O job. I mean, that's a unique thing that the 160th does is we put a representative at each of our supported customers at their base. And that's where you work and that's where you live. And I think that's highly important. That's something we've been doing since the later 80s, early 90s. And that customer can come face to face to you and to me rather and say, hey, this is what we're looking to do. And I can start doing the first cut on figuring that piece out. Obviously, after that, I'll be closely engaged with our S3, taking it right to the S3, taking it right to the battalion commander or sometimes the RCO. You are the RCO's representative when you're the LNO. So I think that's a huge first step is that relationship building, being able to talk face to face with the ground force. And it was probably the most three challenging years I ever did in the Army was as that LNO. Because you're not only making sure that you're able to support the customer as best that you can, but you also have to keep in mind that you're trying to do what's best for your left and right limits in the aviation community. And, you know, we have a lot of rules and regulations, as you guys are well aware. So we're just trying to keep within those limits and keep within the commander's intent. And so I enjoyed doing it, but it's very challenging, but effective, I think. After I left uniform, one of the things I was doing in the commercial world was a little bit of senior mentor work. And I participated in several exercises that were primarily designed on the aviation side to qualify FMC pilots as, you know, the ability to plan and lead an operation. It was a ground element to, you know, some SF-supported units. But it was incredible to watch the incredibly high-stress training environment they put those guys through to earn the qualification to actually be the lead planner. Yeah, and General Tova's right. You know, if you give us a week to plan a mission, we're going to take a week. If you give us 30 minutes, we'll take 30 minutes, you know. But we're going to plan and rehearse as much as we possibly can before that mission takes place. And the level of proficiency and specialization is incredible. I mean, it's really interesting because on our Special Forces teams, we have our specializations in our various MOSs. But we also spend so much time cross-training. You can, as a pilot, fly various aircraft. But I specifically asked in our conversation, I asked Pete Sullivan the question of, well, why don't you fly everything? And it really was, they said, you can't be an expert if you do more than one thing. Right. Yeah, totally agree with that. You would see in the Little Bird community from time to time, an MH-6 guy going to be an AH-6 guy or vice versa. Meaning the lift versus the attack version of the same aircraft. Correct. So, I mean, it certainly is possible, but it's like a full-time job switch. You are switching aircraft. We experimented, like Pete mentioned and Colonel Smith, you know, we did experiment with some dual cockpit type of hybrid cockpit, what we used to call in the Little Bird community. And, you know, it just makes more sense to have as much subject matter expertise at the controls for whatever mission you're doing. And the 160th is perfectly suited to do that. So there really is no reason to do any kind of hybrid anything there. All right. Well, we're sitting here at the second annual Stars and Stripes Classic. So we got our Green Berets are going to take on the Navy SEALs here in a couple hours under the lights. It's just a Subaru park here south of Philadelphia. These two teams are coming together. It's brotherly love. We've got the rivalry. We had the coaches on earlier, and we have both coaches from West Point and from the Naval Academy. So they're bringing their rivalry to come to fruition here, although their players are quite a bit older, as we talked about, than what they're used to at the academies. But what we're looking at, more experience. More experience and more seasoned. Maybe less experience in lacrosse, more experience in other things since their playing days. But both sides of the field tonight are men of character who have gone through very rigorous assessment and selection processes that whether they earn their trident or they earn their Green Beret, they have to live to that every day. You ran, each of you, complex organizations built on people of character. In your definition, your own perspective, what do you look for when you build these teams and you need people to come in and operate at an elite level? You know, it's interesting. You kind of talk Green Berets, Navy SEALs, 160th. I think they all got their own culture and each of them is looking for probably something a little bit different in there in the attributes they assess for and they select against But at the core SOF is really about an ethos of mission accomplishment It's about getting the job done. No excuses. In the 160th, it's on time, on target, right? And it's also a commitment that when I put you in, I'm going to get you out. In the ground forces, it's about, hey, we're going to get the job done one way or another. And it doesn't matter if we don't have all the resources we wanted or the weather turned bad or something happened, the enemy situation changed. The ethos is get the job done. And so I think when you're looking for the kind of person that can be a part of any of these cultures, you're looking for somebody who isn't looking for excuses, isn't looking to point the finger at anybody else. They're problem solvers who figure out what do I need to do to do what I signed up to accomplish? How do I get the job done? Because there's no excuse. mission's got to be accomplished. What comes to mind for me is Night Stalkers don't quit, you know, and that's something that many times we associate with being on the objective. And certainly that is the case. But also, it's like General Tovo said, you know, it's being in those planning cells, grinding it out for weeks or months or sometimes years to execute a mission and just doing it and having that mindset that no problem is too big. And no matter what the challenges are associated with that mission, we will find a way to accomplish it. And I think that the NSDQ, definitely I said that on the objective, hey, we're not, you're one minute inbound, you know, there's no turn back. You're going, you're committed. And you know that no matter what happens, you know, you're going to accomplish the mission. Sometimes it looks better than others. Sometimes it can be a little ugly, but you are going to accomplish the mission and you will not leave anybody on the objective at the end of the night. We all have our sayings. We have our mottos and we think about Night Stalkers, don't quit and the NSDQ. And I think your explanation of that is spot on. And I know not having served in the Special Operations Aviation Regiment, I mean, that's something that when I look at that organization, what comes to my mind is exactly what you said, that no matter what's going to happen is these guys are going to be there. And You think about an organization like the 160th, who's really been perpetually deployed since inception. All of our soft forces have in some capacity, but our special forces groups have by and large rotated and they're bigger. And you have a smaller footprint, a smaller organization who has been deployed. First guys in Afghanistan have had an opportunity over the years to get to meet Alan Mack, who was one of the lead pilots in Afghanistan. in the days after 9-11. And they were the last guys out on Overwatch when General Donahue, you know, entered the C-17 and took off. And so, you know, really an incredible organization that has done a lot for this country, most of which people around here don't know about and probably shouldn't. And I think that will stay that way for a long time. But sir, we have our own saying in the Green Berets, Deo Preso Libero. What does Deo Preso Libero mean to you? For those who don't speak fluent Latin, it's to free the oppressed, right? And it really speaks to the central purpose and operating methodology of Green Berets, which is we are focused on an indigenous story. It's about helping a partner force accomplish what their goals and objectives are that are aligned with the U.S. objectives, right? And it's kind of hard to work with a partner force if they want to go left and you want to go right. But generally, we pick our partner forces in places where we are trying to help them achieve a set of objectives and goals that are similar or at least close, almost aligned with U.S. objectives, right? You know, you look at the early days of Afghanistan, right, that you just mentioned. We had fifth group on the ground working with the Northern Alliance, and they both wanted the same thing. It was overthrow the Taliban. And in the end, most of the heavy lifting is done by the partner force. And really, the Green Berets are there to support the indigenous force. They're trying to accomplish objectives through the partner. And I think the motto just captures the spirit of the fact that when Green Berets are operating, I mean, sometimes we'll do things unilaterally, but by and large, 99% of the time, we're working through a partner force to accomplish whatever our mission is. And I think De Oppresso Liber kind of highlights that. Obviously, it comes from the roots of our unconventional warfare focus, which was to go into, back then, Eastern Europe and help those countries overthrow the Soviet oppression. Well, we're having the opportunity in this year's game to honor our predecessors of MACVSOG, the Vietnam mission, Green Beret's Vietnam mission in 50 years ago now. And in a couple of minutes, we're going to have a couple of former operators who served in MACVSOG are going to come down over here and sit down with me and they're going to share what it was like to live that mission. But unsung heroes of a generation that came after our founders of the regiment who served on those Jedberg teams that we've talked at length about over the last couple of years. But a group who suffered a lot of loss and carried a tremendous amount of the burden of the Vietnam conflict, most of which the public doesn't know about. I would argue even in our own community, a lot of what MACVSAG did is really not even part of the history because it's been classified until just fairly recently. You know, obviously, any Green Beret worth its salt understands a lot of what Green Berets were doing in Vietnam, right? Working with the mountain yards, the indigenous programs that we had. And everybody kind of understands there was this thing called MACVSAG, a joint force that was doing kind of the highly classified and really high-risk, high-danger missions. But a lot of it's just bits of legend and lore. Since declassification, they're starting to get some books out and some more information. But from a Green Beret Foundation perspective we really honored to be able to honor and acknowledge the legacy of McVisag at this game because people should know about it I mean as you mentioned I mean the teams small teams going into denied territory generally suffered over the course of the years really 100 casualties Almost everybody was at least wounded once or twice. And the KIA rate was significant, like 50%, I think, if I recall correctly. It was a tough place to be. And everybody knew it, but they fought to be at the, you know, the really sharp pointy end of the spear doing the hardest missions in support of the nation. And the foundation's made that commitment. They've made the commitment to Green Berets of all generations to support them through all the various programs that exist. And I think, you know, at this point in time where we have a generation in the Vietnam era who is aging and has requirements, I think now is that time for us to go full effort. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the unique things about the Green Beret Foundation as a nonprofit is that we do support the active force and the veteran force. And we're not picking any one generation to support. We do go back to if a 1950s Green Beret came to us for support that kind of fit our mission profile, we'd support him and his family. Now, we don't get a lot of those calls. Most of those guys have passed away at this point, but we do a fair amount of sport for Vietnam era and obviously a lot of the veterans since then. And of course, we focus on the active force as well and their families. Well, we got a lot of work to do. So we just had Charlie on here, president and CEO of the foundation. And we had Project Recover on as well, where we were able to really discuss and have the announcement that the Green Beret Foundation and Project Recover are going to work together to bring home those who have been lost and never returned in Vietnam. We have, I believe the number is 58. 58, I was talking to him as we were doing the transition, and he was telling me 58 Green Berets still yet to be found in Vietnam from that era, and probably a significant number of them are MACV SOG just based on mission profile, I would imagine. And so we're excited by that partnership and to be able to contribute. I mean, to me, it's all part of the Green Beret Foundation's approach to continue to help the legacy of the regiment. And we'll take a pilot with us, too. It's kind of funny that I walked up and saw Derek Abbey. It was, I had no idea you're interviewing him today. He and I have a meeting set up for this Wednesday and he was going to tell me, you know, you're the newest team member for Project Recover, which I'm extremely, extremely proud. Hi, I mean, so get you a C12, you guys will be all right. Yeah. So I can't wait to start working with Project Recover and doing some hard work going out there and literally digging and looking. Yeah. I hope to just that perseverance that Derek was talking about just in relationship building, you know, I mean, they're doing a big trip now. with Vietnam, you know, to start that relationship with them, it's huge. You know, so maybe we'll bring some more soft back from Vietnam. Serendipity of life is interesting, right? That's the way it works. It's a small community. So, you know, obviously, Sean and I knew each other from when I was at Isisak, and he was my pilot. And we really reconnected after I retired. I'm out doing yard work, and he's driving by with his wife in the neighborhood. And he stopped, hey, sir. And you just bought a house, or were you still looking? Yeah, bought that house in the same neighborhood, yep. So he bought a house in the same neighborhood. So, you know, we got together, we're golf buddies now, otherwise get together. But, you know, it's just because I was out in my yard doing, otherwise I'd never known that he was there or vice versa. General Tovo has been known to employ some psychological operations around a golf. So he definitely has the advantage there. I'm starting to catch on on some of those tricks I'm aware of. But he's always looking for edge to win like he should be. Sean is particularly vulnerable to the psychological tricks of the ring array. I'm easy, you know. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me. We're going to kick this game off here in a couple of hours. I'm really looking forward to it. We're going to get some retribution for last year on those seals. That is in the plan. You know, I talked to the players last night at our dinner, and every one of them that had played last year, it's about 50-50 new players, were really excited because they felt like we're prepared. We've got some new blood. We've got a little bit more offense this year. We'll see how it all goes. We are cautiously optimistic. We didn't really lose last year. It's an old saw, but I think if we had had two more minutes on the clock, we were coming on strong there. We'd have closed the gap. But this year, we're going to start strong. Well, you gave your guidance last night, and that was, let's not let it get down to the last two minutes. Let's put it away early. So I think they're taking it to heart. Don't waste the first 98% of the game. Yeah, no, they did a great job last year, and I was really proud of them last year about the grit. We were down, I think, five or six at halftime, and they didn't let it get them down. They came out strong in the second half. And as I said, we just ran out of time. We'll get them this year. We'll be on the sidelines. Yep. You will be yelling. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks, Trent. American Jedbergs went on to form the foundation of the United States Special Forces and the Special Activities Directorate of the Central Intelligence Agency. Thanks for listening to the Jedberg Podcast, an official program of the Green Beret Foundation. I'm your creator and host, Fran Richoven. Join us next week for a new episode on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out on YouTube for full episodes, highlights, and other long and short form content. If you like what you heard, give us a like and leave a review. Follow the Jedberg Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, X or Threads. Send your comments and inquiries to Fran at JedbergPodcast.com. As former members of Special Operations Forces, the Jedberg Media Channel and the Green Beret Foundation remain committed to supporting all generations of U.S. Army Special Forces and their families. Thanks for joining us on this episode. How you prepare today determines success tomorrow.
