Wemby and the Spurs Have Flipped the NBA Season on Its Head

All right, coming up, we got a loaded Zach Loeschow with the one and only Kurt Goldsbury and his Portland Sea Dogs hat. I wasn't planning to do an episode today after Christmas, but too much stuff is happening. The Christmas games were mostly awesome and raised a lot of questions. JJ Redick, pretty cranky about the Lakers defense. What do we see in that game? What did the Rockets learn? The Cads, Nick's, a barn burner in New York. Do you feel better as a Cads person after that loss than you did before? Do you feel worse? Do you feel like the Knicks have your number? How am I supposed to take that loss? The Nuggets, Jokic, what? What is that stat line beat to Timberwolves in overtime without three other starters? Is Jokic the MVP again? I think so. We're going to talk about it. But the biggest story in the NBA, I don't know enough about the other American sports right now to say in all of American sports is the San Antonio Spurs. Not only that to 23 and seven and a true blue title contender already somehow, but that in two weeks they have changed the entire landscape of the NBA from the Thunder versus the Field, the Thunder versus 73 wins to worth three and all against this team. We are beating their ass twice in the last 10 days. We have their number. The whole NBA has flipped on its head because of what Wemby and these guards are doing to the Oklahoma City Thunder. We're going to talk about it all coming up on the Zach Loh Show with Kirk Goldsbury. This episode of the Zach Loh Show is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play, getting whatever you need there fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking suffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com. slash prime to shop now. Welcome to a special post Christmas edition of the Zach Loh Show. Kirk Goldsbury is here putting in overtime. How are you doing, sir? I am doing well. Happy holidays, Zach Loh. We had a hell of a Christmas start to finish. We had let's do it in order. We had Nick's calves barn burner. We had the game of the day for me Spurs Thunder, the one I was most looking forward to and the Spurs made another statement. We are going to pivot right back there. We had a little, it's always nice to have a little interlude, a little like, okay, it's like, you know, I maybe can have this one on in the background. Mavs Warriors, AD gets hurt again. Trade implications. What should the Mavs do? We'll get there. Then we pick right back up Rockets, Lakers, or shifting over to ABC. Maybe the other ones on ABC, I don't know. It's the headliner. The Rockets make a starting lineup change. The Lakers disintegrate on defense. JJ Redick goes full on like military drill sergeant. Everyone stinks. Nobody cares. We got to care. Nobody cares. Meltdown post game. And then to cap it off, you ready to go to bed? You ready to have a little Baileys, a little glass of wine, whatever you like? No, no. And Nikolay Yolkich reclaims his status as the MVP favorite, 56, 15, and 16, beating the Nemesis, one-time Nemesis Minnesota Terpals for the third time this year without three starters. What a day, Kirk Goldsbury. A great day. A great day. And like you, I was zeroed in on Oklahoma City. I felt like the thunder had had enough of these up-and-coming spurs, and this was their chance at home to just remind everybody that they're still in charge of the NBA. And the opposite happened. Everybody who's listening to this probably knows I'm biased. But it was an incredible game for San Antonio. But like you said, just an incredible NBA Christmas day, capped with, I mean, one of the best regular season performances I've ever seen, Nikolay Yolkich winning that game. He set a records act for points and overtime ever scored as he carried the broken distance Denver Nuggets to a victory against their Nemesis. So it was just a great day. They're not a Nemesis anymore. Three times three and O this year. Not that the Nuggets have solved that. That's a tough matchup for them. But I haven't seen a team more casually come back from being down nine almost halfway through overtime, just like, sure, I'll come out here to three out of a timeout. We're fine. We're down nine with two and a half minutes to go in overtime. But the story of the year in the NBA is the San Antonio Spurs and specifically their comfort against the Oklahoma City Thunder. In two weeks, they have flipped the entire NBA season on its head. In two weeks, we have gone from Oklahoma City over the field. Oklahoma City 73 wins. Oklahoma City chasing history to, wait a second, have they found their kryptonite? Can they even beat the San Antonio Spurs? The Spurs are three and O in two weeks against Oklahoma City, and they have obliterated all those narratives. If one team in the field can beat you three times in two weeks in games that we all agree were meaningful games or big stage games, the field by definition gets the edge over you. 73 wins. Okay, we can table that discussion unless they go on a massive winning streak soon. MVP, not only is the door open, Yolkich is now the favorite and the leading candidate to win MVP. There's only a three game gap in the loss column between the Nuggets and the Thunder. We can come back to that. And the Spurs, I think the Thunder are better than the Spurs against 29 other NBA teams. The Spurs have looked straight up better than the Thunder one-on-one. These last two games have been beat downs. I didn't think we'd see a team be able to beat down the Oklahoma City Thunder multiple times in a short span once at home, once on the road. This is a matchup that is a problem for the Thunder. That's obvious. Beyond that, the Spurs are officially, right now, way ahead of schedule, inner circle championship contenders. And I said, after the first game against Oklahoma City, the Cup game, there was this discussion, are they contenders? And I said, well, it kind of defends how you frame that. Like, am I ready to call them like inner circle championship Denver Oklahoma City level contenders? Not yet. They're kind of in that conference. No, I was wrong. They are improbably against all historical precedent about aging curves and whatever. They are inner circle championship contenders right freaking now. Here's where I want to start, Kirk. What's been so startling in these three games is how comfortable the Spurs look on offense against Oklahoma City. We all knew the Spurs were going to be a defensive juggernaut with one beniyama. And oh my God, I mean, just oh my God. There are top 10 offense overall right now. That's by itself, I had a schedule. We had concerns. Even though I was way high on the Spurs over lock it in, didn't expect anything like this because I had concerns about their level of outside shooting around when beniyama. That has been crushed to smithereens. They're totally fine. They have scored 121 points per 100 possessions against Oklahoma City in three games. No other team this year has a season average above 108 against the league's best defense by far. So let's just start there because that's the headline. Why are the Spurs so comfortable against Oklahoma City on offense? What is it about this matchup that the league's best defense, this infallible element of the game can no longer hold up? You got to start with De'Eren Fox and the guards and specifically Fox. And when they beat OKC that first time in Vegas, Zach, I got on a plane. I was like, I have to go see the Spurs next game. And I was sitting with some Spurs friends before that next game. And they're like, hey, it's time to give some shine to De'Eren Fox. I know there was some awkwardness around when the Spurs started 5-0. Was this a good move? Should they trade De'Eren Fox? Well, to me, this incredible Spurs run, I do mean incredible, started in mid-November when Wemby went out and Castle missed a bunch of games. And it was De'Eren Fox, dude. They're in the middle of the group of death. And they win at Denver. They win at Portland. They go to the corner finals and win at the Lakers to get to Vegas in the first place before Wemby was back. And that was all De'Eren Fox. So I think it's time for the NBA community, the audience of the Zach Loeschow, and us to be like, yeah, the De'Eren Fox thing looks like it's working out. And when you ask that key question, it's like, I've never seen a set of guards look as comfortable against the Caruso-Dort SGA Wallace sort of apparatus as I have these last three games. The Spurs are young. Some of them are faster than anybody on the Thunder, De'Eren Fox. They have a size play and a physicality play with Castle and Harper. But for me, it's their ability to do something that no other team in the NBA has been able to do is get into the paint with their guards and start making plays. And that has been De'Eren Fox, who was their offensive leader yesterday and has been really the big stat with Fox that I think people need to know is when Wemby goes out, last year the Spurs were a dumpster fire. This year, when Wemby goes out, their offensive efficiency goes up because De'Eren Fox is competent at that point guard spot leading this offense. So he's brought this new element. So my answer to you is like this fleet of guards, but I'd centered it around De'Eren Fox. Wemby has only played 70 minutes in these three games. That's another thing that kind of needs to be noted. And yes, he's been at full terror level defensively in those games. Offensively, it's come and gone. It seems like every three he hits is an absolute dagger. And the offense of rebounding he's brought to this matchup, you know, it's funny. I don't know the terminology for this. We talk about second jumps a lot and third jumps a lot. Like Zion has an incredibly fast second jump. Wemby has like a second tiptoe or like a second and third tiptoe because he knows I'm so tall. I don't even need to load up for a second jump. I just need to kind of bounce a little bit and I'm above everybody else. And he's just like towering over everyone on these offensive rebounding possessions. You nailed it in two ways. Number one, the guards and number two, speed, particularly when Dort and J Dub are at the two and the three, the Spurs have a very visible speed edge against the Thunder that no other team has really been able to leverage. And the Thunder have not been able to extract a size penalty on the other end. They just don't get like J Dub's hit some push off midrangers and all that. But it's not like he's taking Deere and Fox, who has been his primary assignment a lot down to the block and bullying him. And Castle and Harper are as physical as anything the Thunder might not be as strong as Lou Dort, who's built like an offensive lineman, but Castle, like you try to go under screens against him and you can see the Thunder trying to do that more. They even switched some big guys onto him now and then to try to keep him out of the paint. Guess what? He's getting into the paint anyway. He's beating you to the spot. He's knocking you off balance. He's hitting floaters. He's at midrangers. And Dylan Harper has this sort of just, I'm going to drive into you, get all herky jerky, spin, pivot, knock you off balance, hit a midranger, bully you with my shoulder, hit a layup like there. The hard play has been the story and it's the speed. And here's the thing that Fox has in common with Tyrese Maxi. They don't turn the ball over. They've always been extremely low turnover players. And in these three games, their turnover rate against the Thunder, who forced more turnovers than anybody. Everybody knows that dispersive only turned the ball over on 13.8% of their possessions for the season. Like among all 30 teams that would rank like six or seventh to do that against this defense. It's basically unheard of for a team to not turn the ball over like this. And the last thing is the free throws and everyone winds about the Thunder getting all the calls. They're like getting away with everything on defense and blah, blah. Spurs have taken 77 free throws to 59 for the Thunder. You put all that together and just more broadly, there's something about this group of guards and their level of speed that gives like Fox is getting wherever he wants and kicking the ball to three point shooters for wide open shots. This is giving the Thunder legit, legit real problems that they don't know how to, you can tell like they don't know how to solve this right now. Yeah. It's been stunning. I think you mentioned the turnover thing denying them that sort of oxygen, that defensive runability that they have with off live ball turnovers. You know, Stefon Castle does throw the ball away a lot. I know that's something he's got to get better at. But in this three game arc, you're exactly right. They haven't given them those easy sort of pick six plays that we all associate with this Thunder's defense. You mentioned those 70 minutes. When I did a deep dive on the Spurs for the ringer around the NBA Cup, I think the biggest difference from last year is when Wemby was off the court, the Spurs were terrible. This year, they're not great, but they're competent. And we've seen it in this sort of three game run against the Thunder. And you mentioned those 70 minutes. I logged the score in those 70 minutes with Victor in the game. The Spurs are ahead 175 to 128. So that net rating is 32 against the Oklahoma City Thunder when Wemby's in the game. And when he goes out, that goes to negative three, which isn't terrible. It is we're treading water here in these non Wemby minutes, which is a huge accomplishment against the defending champs. But you mentioned the Wemby defense. And I do want to say as much as much shine as I want to give to the other Spurs and the front office and the coaching staff for building this competence around their superstar, the Wemby minutes are just stunning. Like he's changing the geometry of what SGA wants to do on the basketball court. He's changing everybody's offensive strategies. These guys who are making U-turns, it's been a thing. But it's crazy to see just the defensive impact of Wemby. And I still think that's the biggest thing, Zach, is when Wemby is on the floor, the paint is pretty much off limits. And that is the definitive thing here. In these 70 minutes, the stats bear it out. The Thunder turn into a bad offense with Victor Wemby on the floor. The irony is his block streak ended against the Thunder in the second game because no one wants to even try it anymore. And it's not just, you mentioned the U-turns and we all see the, like the, I called them the O-Nos, like, oh no, oh no, pump fake and get the hell out. It's the drives that don't even really become drives. So yesterday there was a Thunder possession. I didn't remember when it was. I think it was the third quarter. When they, they got the Spurs, it wasn't a blender, but the ball was moving around and it got to case and Wallace in the left corner. And he started to drive the attack to close out, beat the guy who was closing out on him. And this is the sequence you see dozens of times in every NBA game. Floor spread, get teams in the blender, drive, get to the rim, kick it out, blah, blah. It's not that case and Wallace didn't shoot. It's that he saw Wemby and he stopped his drive eight feet before he even touched the paint. And when you stop drive, like he wasn't even planning to shoot. There was no part of case and Wallace. So it was like, this is going to be the end of the possession. The point was, it's my job to keep the machine moving, draw in the help and make the next pass. He couldn't even draw on the help because he stopped so short of the paint that the Spurs other defenders can be like, Oh, our job is done. Like that's the Wemby effect too. It's drives that don't happen. But going, let's zoom out before we go back to the Spurs office saying there's more being on that bone. There's all this talk about, is it a rivalry? You know, I don't know if it's a rivalry. We got to play. This is a, this is not only a rivalry. It is the rivalry. It is the defining rivalry of the NBA. Now it has a chance to be like the bird magic of team rivalries for the next X amount of years. And it got me thinking like Oklahoma City 1.0 with Durant and Russ and Hardin and Abaka and then not Hardin. They had like little pieces of rivalries with teams, most of which were older than they were. The Spurs, the Clippers, the Grizzlies, a little bit with the Mavs. And they didn't really have like a on our level of age rising with us. We're going to be punching each other in the mouth every year in the playoffs kind of rivalry. Could have been Houston after Hardin got there. Could have been the Warriors. Both of those things were aborted because of the decision that Kevin Durant made to go join the Warriors, which fine, whatever he did it. This is a higher level version of what like Bull's Heat was supposed to be in the Eastern Conference before Derek Rose's career went sideways. Like, it's obviously a rivalry. There's obviously tension. There's obviously frustration with among the Thunder that they can't figure this out. Like Shay shoved Wemby in the first half of the game yesterday and semi-transition. That was a clear like we're wobbling as a team confidence wise. Like this is not, this is not only a rivalry. That is the rivalry. This is the defining rivalry of the sport right now and fingers crossed that this is this case for the next five years because this is so much fun. It's ridiculous. Yeah. I hadn't seen that. I'm so glad you pulled that shame moment out. I hadn't thought about that, but I'd never seen him lose his cools like that. He's one of the coolest customers in the league. That's one of the reasons he's so great. But he lost his poise there for a second going up the court. But it's clear that this is a rivalry. And I said to RC Buford when I ran into him in Vegas. I said, Hey, this is like, and I worked for the team, but I was like, this seems like a new rivalry. It's like new rivalry. They feel like they've been rivals with these guys forever. I mean, Sam Presti has been there. He comes from the Spurs. In 2012, you know, when I first started covering the NBA with ESPN, I thought that was the greatest Spurs team of the era and that might be with the greatest team. Remember that? They won 20 games in a row. The Thunder, Sendem, home. James Harden and Serge Ibaka. Yeah, they end that incredible run the Spurs were on. 2014, old man Tim Duncan goes in there and turns back the clock and sends the Thunder home with a legendary performance on their way to that championship. So this is a rivalry. This has been a rivalry and it's just a new iteration. There's some new faces out there, but it is great. And I share the sentiment. It's just great basketball, but man, I did not see it coming this fast. I thought, you know, when they got to that semifinal, I was like, okay, this is, this is crazy. Okay, nice run by the Spurs and like hand up. I did not think the Spurs were winning that game in Vegas. The next game, well, now you got your attention back in San Antonio. They're going to give it to you. Oh my God, they win by 20. And now here we go to Christmas Day. Well, now they're in Oklahoma City. Let's see what happens now. And they win that one. It's been crazy rapid change. 12 days, Zacklo, three Spurs wins against the team that we both thought was the buzz saw on the NBA two weeks ago. I want to go back to the Spurs offense because another thing that's happening is, and this is not a new thing, is, you know, the game starts off, Thunderstar double big, and then they almost sometimes never go back to it. They go one big the rest of the way, one of Chet, one of Heart and Stein. We saw some Kenridge Williams at center more of it yesterday. I think trying to space Wembenyama out, trying to find an answer to a Spurs defense that they're having trouble with. But when the Spurs have the ball and Holmgren and Wembenyama are the only two big men on the floor, the only two true bigs on the floor, one for each team, which is really the sort of headline or alignment here. Like that's the alignment we want to see. The Thunder have generally made a decision and the Spurs have made the same decision. We'll talk about it where we don't want Chet on Wembenyama. We're going to put Chet on Kelden Johnson. We're going to put Chet on Harrison Barnes. And I think the reason for that is twofold. Number one, we want Chet to roam. Number two, if you're going to go at our big man in the pick and roll, you're not going to be able to do it with Wembenyama. You're going to have to use Harrison Barnes as a screener or Kelden Johnson as a screener. And if you want to use Wembenyama as a screener because he's Victor Wembenyama, well, we're going to be able to switch that because we're going to have Caruso on him or J. Dubb on him. And I would posit that that ploy has failed against the Spurs so far for a couple of reasons. Number one, Harrison Barnes and Kelden Johnson have been sensational. If you're going to leave them open, they're drilling every corner three in your face. If you're going to close out hard on them, they're going to blow by you and make enough plays at the rim to hurt you. And then when the Spurs do use Wembenyama as a screener and the Thunder are like, cool, we'll switch between Dort and Caruso, Dort and J. Dubb, Caruso and Wallace. The Spurs are finding ways to punish that because you know what? Fox and Wembenyama, if that's the two man game, they're awesome. They've seen every scheme. They know what to do with switches. They slip screens. Fox will reject the screen and go hard and beat the switch that way. And all of this is a long-winded way of saying, should Chech's guard Wembe more? Is that part of the answer here? I understand the reasoning for it. I wonder if that's something we see them try a little bit more in Oklahoma City the next time these two play. Yeah. I think they were born to guard each other. And there's a rivalry there. Speaking of rivalry, sort of a microcosm of this is certainly this years-long Chech Wembe rivalry. And it is interesting that they don't match them up in all the things that the Thunder are throwing at Wembe. But ultimately, like I just looked at some stats. You know, the Spurs won the paint battle. They won the three-point shooting stats. And that was another interesting thing here on the other side of the court. I'm sure we'll get to. But it all starts with that blender. And you were talking about it a few minutes ago. The Spurs are getting into that blender no matter who's at the point of attack, no matter who's on Wembe, no matter who's setting screens against the Slender team in a way that I haven't seen. You're getting Harrison Bard's wide open in ways you wouldn't expect against the Thunder, a Champani. The ball is just finding open shooters regardless of who is stirring the drink for San Antonio. And I think it goes back to that there's a team now with younger, faster, more aggressive guards than Oklahoma City. And that's the San Antonio Spurs. So to me, Zach, it starts at the point of attack with that driving machine. I haven't looked up the advanced stats on drives. Whatever you have, but the Spurs are able to do that regardless of the matchup science at the point of attack in a way that I think helps them create clean looks against this team. The other teams just simply haven't been able to achieve. It can't be stated enough how awesome Harrison Bard's and Keldon Johnson have been for the Spurs this year. I don't think anyone outside Harrison Bard's immediate family thought he had this much juice left in the tank on a legit great team. He's been sensational both ends of the floor. Keldon Johnson is a six man of the year candidate. This is a guy the Spurs could have traded a thousand times by now. And in a lot of other universes, they would have traded him a thousand times. And they would have traded him in the same sort of kickoff, the rebuild trades, Dijante, Murray, Derek, White, all of that. No. And now he's a six man of the year candidate. Vacell, who we've barely talked about. I love the Vacell subsection of the Spurs offense coming off screens, catching going right into a pick and roll. All the stuff they do with him, he's an A plus kind of shooter, an A shooter. He's been really, really good. Can't say enough about all of those guys. On the other end of the floor, the same thing is happening where the Spurs are not putting Wembenyama on Chet Holmgren. And that feels much more like a weapon than it does like a shoulder shrug active surrender. And they're putting him on, you know, pick, pick whoever, when it's one big versus one big Caruso, Dort, whatever. And Caruso couldn't make a three yesterday. And the Thunder, in fairness, as we lawed the Spurs, Thunder is shooting 29% on threes against the Spurs in these three games. Underperforming. AJ Mitchell missed the last two. And you actually felt, you actually felt like when Shay was off the floor, the void of AJ Mitchell a little bit, that's not to say that he would have swung these games. He would not have just, just the thing. But putting Wemby on Caruso, Dort, whoever, Aaron Wiggins, whoever happens to be out there, just being like, don't guard that guy, just roam everywhere. It's working. And it has left me with two questions. I think the Spurs are just wildly unafraid of Chet Holmgren. And you texted me after the first quarter of that game yesterday saying, this is a big 36 minutes for Chet Holmgren. I don't really think he answered the bell. This has been fantastic this year, not in this matchup. So what did you mean by that text? And what do you want to see from Chet Holmgren? I think the alarm in Oklahoma City has a lot to do with the two and three in that rotation. J-Dubb does not look the same. All right, from the wrist. The wrist. He has not looked the same. And I'm not raising an alarm just yet, but it is, I'm getting ready to press the button. The Chet thing is bigger, especially in this context, against Victor. One, he looks like he's losing the mind game to Victor. And Victor is sort of asserting himself as this sort of mental presence over him. But dude, when you look at the advanced numbers, Chet Holmgren is supposed to protect the paint. He is the rim protector for this team. And it just feels like he's not doing that as much as these guards. We said once those guards get into the paint, that's where Chet's supposed to show up. He's supposed to assert himself. He hasn't done that. He's missed some huge free throws in this three game run, much to the delight of Victor Wembanyama. But it just feels like, look, SGA has been great. SGA has been playing like an MVP. But really, the question mark in OKC is south of the SGA line in the rotation, specifically with two and three. And I think Chet is the most impactful defender, obviously interior defender on that team. And if he's not setting a tone there, man, it just feels like Wembanyama is in the heads of OKC, starting with the head of Chet Holmgren. And that's why I said that. The Spurs had 41 points in that first quarters, Act. 41 points against the Thunder. It's like, you don't see that. And again, it was with Wembanyama barely playing. I don't even remember if he got in much for the first quarter yesterday. But Chet needs to be their defensive quarterback, particularly in the paint. And if he's not going to do that, the question marks around the Thunder, especially in some of these matchups, get a lot bigger. The bottom line is this. The Wembany only for San Antonio, so four wings guards in Wembany versus four wings guards in Chet. The Spurs are winning those minutes. And those are supposed to be the lineups where each team reaches its zenith kind of two-way ability. Maybe that's less true for the Thunder because Hardenstein has been awesome for them. If the Spurs continue to win those minutes, Oklahoma City has to do one of two things. Number one, find a solution. And we've pitched some of them back and forth, I'm about to pitch another one or two. Or pivot in a different direction, play two bigs more. They tried Ken Rich Williams at the five more. And they can see them trying that. The one thing that I do, I mentioned on the other end, should Chet guard Wembymor. The Spurs don't have to make that decision. Wembie parked on Caruso, et cetera, has been fine. When I watch these games, one of the things I've wondered is, instead of letting Wembanyama hang out on the baseline waiting to help and not guarding those guys, should they try to involve him in the action more? Bring Caruso up as a screener in the pick and roll. Run a pick and roll with Alex Caruso, who has played some point guard in his life and in his NBA career. Get him engaged and away from the rim. Now they've tried it here and there and the Spurs are very smart about when they see it coming. Wembanyama will point and be like, you go up, I'm going to stay back here and toggle on to another guy. And maybe these rules don't even apply to him because bringing him into the play does not necessarily make me excited either because I just have to deal with this dude in the pick and roll who's like an eight foot wingspan all in my face. But it is a question that I've asked myself is, do they need to try to bring him to the ball more? It's counterintuitive. I want the best defender on the planet in the action more, but I think maybe they do. Maybe it might just be 10% more, 20% more, but letting them hang out over there is not working unless Caruso starts making shots and Dordd starts making shots. Is there an ecological factor too? When we let Caruso shoot it and now Wembanyama is the free safety, maybe the other shooters just aren't as open. Maybe that 30, 32, 34%, 3.9. Now I'll point to the shooting look. Okay, C fans, you guys had some bad nights shooting the ball. Three bad nights. Three bad nights now. Yeah, and it's fair to say the A.J. Mitchell point is also very valid. But we're going to see this again. And when Wembanyama is free to roam because they're leaving Caruso wide open, like the rest of the offense the four guys have is not as potent either, right? Including closeouts are easier and drives are harder and so forth. So I think there's an ecological impact, but you said you had a few other suggestions. I'm eager to hear what you're thinking, Zach. Well, the only one that we haven't talked about is there were a couple of possessions where Jalen Williams was sort of running point and they would start the possession with Jada bringing it up and Shay in the corner, rocketing off a pin down, catching the ball on the move and getting into the paint that way. And I feel like that has to be part of the point of having a second all NBA level offensive player ball handler on your team is to just spice up your offense a little bit, make the spurs sort of look around like, okay, where's Shay now, get him moving in different spots on the floor. He's been like you said, he's carried his weight in these games Shay has, but it's been very, very hard for him. And when it's hard for him, that means he's dribbling a lot. Other people are standing around a lot and the spurs have a level of comfort of it. We at least know what's coming. Those couple of possessions where they sprinkled that in, like put him in the post against Fox, if Fox is on him, see how that looks. Just put J Dub in the post when Fox is on him, see how that looks, but just mix it up a little bit with Shay off the ball. But again, there's like, you still have the eight foot wingspan dude lurking around somewhere shutting off water. And as much as that is the biggest hit back and I'll call it out, look at the on off numbers, if you don't believe me in these three games when Victor's on the court, the spurs are juggernaut when he's off the thunder, winning those minutes. That said, one of the things I didn't anticipate here in December of 2025 is talking about these teams below the starline. So below WMB. And we already talked about Kelden Johnson, Champagny. Champagny is good, man. I'm glad you keep that check. Harrison Barnes. Those guys, those sort of less famous players on, in these rotations, the spurs guys have outplayed the thunder equivalent in that category, the depth, which I thought the thunder have been the deepest team over the last few years in the NBA. Man, one other thing to watch is the spurs depth. We even talked about Luc Cornette. Like, these guys just look better than the thunder equivalent, which is crazy. And I think spurs fans have a right to have a smile on their face right now, because the competence starts with WMB. Don't get me wrong, but it doesn't stop there. And it had stopped there as they were getting better last year. Man, but Fox and then the rotation below those guys has been great. I'm really jealous about whoever coined French vanilla as their nickname, because it's very, very good in every way that a VJ Maxx is terrible for the Philadelphia guards. I'm glad you mentioned Cornette because he's been perfect. It's this signing that I lauded when it happened. It's been even better than I thought. And it's an important point because I think as the spurs ascend, there's going to be a snark brigade who rightfully, as people talk about how genius the spurs are and oh my God, after this sort of brief interregnum, after 20 years of being toward the top of the league, they're going to be back for another whatever, 15, 20, 10, five, whatever it ends up being, they're going to say, well, I mean, I could draft Victor Wembanyam and win the lottery. I could draft Stefan Castle and move up a spot in the lottery. I could draft Dylan Harper and move up seven spots in the lottery. And it's undeniable that just as it was with Tim Duncan in 1996 or whatever, whatever draft that was, none of this happens without lottery luck. And yet other teams have had lottery luck. I think of the Pistons under Troy Weaver had lottery luck, drafted well and fucked up the supporting cast around their young players so badly that it took a whole entire regime change and roster overhaul to make it work. As they asked the young guys improved and got better, the spurs have managed the pieces around the guys they semi-luck. First of all, you have to take Stefan Castle and you have to take Dylan Harper and maybe those decisions were easy. Maybe they weren't. The Harper one, I think was pretty easy, but you have to take them. You have to take Victor Wembanyam. You can't overthink that one. You got to nail that one at the top of the draft, but they haven't messed up the supporting cast around them. And even the coaching decisions, like we talked about how Barnes and Vacelle and Keldon Johnson and Champani have been really good punishing this scheme of hiding homegrown on them. It's probably not been an easy decision for Miss Johnson, but mothballing Jeremy Sohan has been the right call. Like the Sohan Wembanyam mix has not worked because teams put their centers on him and he was unable to punish them in the same way these guys can. So anyway, A plus, this is the biggest story in the NBA and it's not close. The spurs in 12 days have taken the entire NBA season and flipped it on its head. I don't remember anything like this happening. It's as if the 2000, it's as if the 73 win warriors lost to the Clippers three times in a row in 10 days or whoever would have been the team then. And it just like, it doesn't happen. Any party thoughts on this matchup? It's the 12 days of spurs, Miss. I think that it has been the greatest gift in Central and South Central Texas. We've had a complete vibe shift. A lot of us are surprised by it. I would want to end this segment with a question though to you because we are all losing our minds here in Spursland. What is the ceiling for the Spurs Zaclo? That's the question I'd end the segment with. Well, I mean, look, they are 23 and seven. They are two games behind the Oklahoma City Thunder in the loss column. They are fifth in offense and fifth in defense and fourth in net rating tied with the Knicks. I saw some breakout overnight where all their guys, you mentioned Fox and Miss Games here and there, Wemby's Miss Games here and there, their record with everybody is whatever it is is very strong or not everybody, but even like three quarters of everybody, Fox and Wembyn Yama. I think the ceiling is they win the championship. I don't really think we need to go above that and put a win total on it or whatever, but they're 23 and seven, top five, fifth on both ends of the floor. And I said before, they're inner circle title contenders. Like the ceiling is they win the championship. Were you looking for another answer? I'm sorry to disappoint you with the boring answer. I just wanted to hear you say it, I think. I just wanted to hear you say it because like I said, I don't trust it, but you know, I did not think this was going to happen this year and it's happening very fast. Like you said, they're over under was like 44 and a half or something. Like nobody thought this was going to happen. It's crazy. It's crazy, but it is the biggest story in the league. And they're also fun to watch. It's the last thing I'd say. I love watching the guys. It's the holidays, special time of year. We couldn't get Mike Tarrico for this segment, but we're going to do it anyway. Zach Lowe's insights to mediocrity coming from a guy with a lot of experience in how to be a really elite mediocre husband, father, parent, family man, citizen, all of it, spilling my secrets to you. Insights to mediocrity is here. It's the holidays. Sports are on 24 seven. You're going to want to watch the sports. Let's be honest. My doors closed back here. I'm going to whisper this. No matter what your family wants you to do, you're going to want to watch the sports. So here's how you do it. Here's how you get away with it. Number one, stay sober. Because if you're staying sober, you're going to be able to do all the other things I'm about to do. Maybe not all the way sober, but sober enough. Number two, you got to pop out. You got to pop out a lot. And when you pop out, you got to be engaged. So it could be, Hey, you want to play cards, you want to play a game, you want to play you want to play Monopoly. And for that 20 minutes, 30 minutes, you are locked in, engaged. Number two, find a chore that you can do on your breaks. That's easy, but makes other people think you're really contributing to the household. Could be unloading the dishwasher, wash a few dishes, make coffee for somebody, refill a wine glass, slice cake, whatever it is. People are like, Oh man, that's really nice. He came out and did stuff. Number three, for dinner, you got to be on your A game. When it's time to actually take a break and sit down, you got to be A plus, have conversation topics ready, be super engaged, make eye contact, refill everyone's glass, help everyone clean up afterwards. And then people, wow, then you disappear and you watch the night games for four hours. But everyone is left with good memories of you. That is a holiday insight to mediocrity. And I'm going to give you a bonus related insight to mediocrity. Find in your life a chore that you don't mind doing that doesn't take very long to do, but that your spouse and or significant other hates doing and make that one of your things. I'll give you two examples from the life of an elite mediocre person unloading the dishwasher. My wife hates unloading the dishwasher, something about the clanking, the process, the fact that some of the dishes aren't dry when they get out of here, the mugs, the water coagulates the bottom of the mug. Guess who does it? Me. I do it as often as I can. Love unloading the dishwasher. What's it going to take me? Six minutes? Try some things off. You organize things. You got to get, got to make sure they're clean. You put one or two dirty spoons in there because you're not paying attention. It undoes the entire effect. You take that on. You're kind of a hero. Number two, carpool to practice. First of all, I love the carpool. You know why? I love my daughter. I'm not that mediocre. Love my family. Love my daughter. Love Eve's dropping on what she's doing with her friends. I even love to watch her sports practices all pop in for 15 minutes of swim practice. See what they're doing all pop in for 30 minutes of water pool practice. See what they're doing. Soccer practice. It's outside. It's delightful. But here's what, here's the trick. You can get worked on. You take your laptop. There's a little conference room somewhere in the YMCA or wherever you are. You take your phone. If it's a nice soccer practice, you do a walk and talk around the field. You get your steps in. You call the source or two. You get work done. But it feels to everyone else like you've contributed a lot. Wow. I was out for two and a half hours taking care of the carpool, the practice, this and that. This, it's just, you just score the points. This has been a holiday version. Zach's insights to mediocrity. You can't get this anywhere else. You can't get it anywhere else. Insights to mediocrity. Are you ready to do a rapid fire around the league Christmas reaction hot takes? Let's get them off. Okay. Oh, wait, wait, you want hot takes? Because I'll give you hot takes. All right. Well, I'm just going to, I'll start. You can respond or give your own hot take. All right. Hot take number one, Christmas uniforms. I don't need them. I'm happy they're gone. I don't want them ever again. The snowflake on the back is good enough for me. It makes it special enough for me. We have enough uniforms. I don't have any faith in the powers that be to not make them stupid in some way. So I'm okay. I saw an outcry. Oh, I missed the Christmas uniforms. And this, I'm cool. No more Christmas uniforms. Yeah. In fact, I'd add on they showed a montage of like spurs Christmas games and like there was this awful shot of Tony Parker wearing the sleeve jersey with this giant spurs logo. And I was like, Oh, get it off the screen. Yeah. I like the uniforms normal. Do you want to throw a hot take on? If you've got something you're ready to get off, go. JJ Redick, dude, he says he's not going to put up with this for 53 more games. He's mad at the children that everyone's grounded. The hot take is I'm not sure he has a choice, Zach Lowe. I don't think this defense, I think they can get better than 28th or 29th, where they've been over the last 10 games. But at the point of the attack, when you have Luca and Austin Reeves, I'm not sure you can stay in front of the guards in this league, especially in the Western Conference. I don't know what the realistic expectation for the ceiling of the Lakers defense is, but I'm worried our friend JJ is going to be very frustrated over these last 53 games because the defense of the Lakers simply isn't good enough to compete for the NBA championship. Yeah. No, no screen time for the next week. Okay. Your phones are gone. You're grounded. Very bad loss for the Lakers yesterday. Austin Reeves left the game in the first half of the calf injury. It's like 10 in the morning right now. We don't have an update on that, knock on what it's not serious. Obviously, he just missed a week with the calf injury. So it's something to monitor. Look, we all knew the model for the Lakers coming in was like top three offense, 15th defense, nuggets model from two years ago. That's the only hope. I've said consistently, like they're the puncher's chance team for me. Like they can win any, they can compete in any single playoff series in the West, but the idea that they could win three seems far fetched to me because of their defense and the fact that their best player, that their best, let me walk that back. It's not, my LeBron comes into my head and words come out. Their second or third, probably best player, we'll see where, depending on what you think of Reeves is about to turn 41. The bottom line, and this was like a really laid bare against the Rockets last night, is ideally for the Lakers, you should probably work your rotation where you start all three of those dudes, Reeves, Luca and LeBron, because you can't politically bring any of them off the bench. Reeves cannot, you can't average 29 points a game and be an all star and like beat the mode at six man when you're about to become an unrestricted free agent. That's just like not a realistic thing that can happen. But it should be a rotation where you play first four minutes of each half, one comes out and then it's max two out of three on the court till crunch time, depending on the circumstances, because that's the only way you can survive defensively. The flip side of that is with only two, with all three on the court, they kind of had to have this superpower of somewhere we're going to be able to find a mismatch on the perimeter. Like we're going to be able to do two and three man actions where all of a sudden a little guy is on LeBron or a little guy's on Luca. Well, when it's just two of them, it's harder to engineer that and it was impossible for them to engineer that against the Rockets who when Reed Shepard's not on the floor, just don't play any little guys anyway. And that's the dilemma the Lakers are trapped in. I don't really know what the solution is. I also, Kirk, is it, I know JJ Redick cares, it's his job to care for 82 games. Is it okay that I just don't care? And here's why I just don't care. None of this was ever supposed to happen. This team was never supposed to exist in this way. And once it was enabled to exist in this way by Nico Harrison, it was never in tight, it was never intended to be a title contender right now. You don't, you don't have one type of mid-tier title contender, which is how the Lakers fancied themselves with Anthony Davis and LeBron. Look in to this gift from the heavens of completely rearranging one mid-tier title contender, creating another, except some of the leftover pieces don't, they only match team A, but not new team B. And all of a sudden contend for titles in a loaded Western conference when you were built around LeBron, but now you're built around Luca. This is all like gravy. And yeah, they got to figure out how to build going forward. If Reeves is going to be part of the core, what to do post LeBron, do they need to make any big giant trades now? Well, they only have one pick to trade. And do you really want to trade Austin Reeves? Is there really what you want to do? What are you getting in return? But like, this is, this is all still gravy from the loot. The gravy Luca train is still, the Luca gravy train is still flowing. Slovenian gravy. Great this time of year. But I think you're right. I think this is, but it's just, it's interesting how it's manifesting. I mean, you're saying there's three teams that have the worst defense over the last 10 games, the Wizards, Czech, Utah, Czech, and then the Lakers, like they have to be better than that. But here we are, you're not going to win a lot of games when you're giving up that many points per possession. But I think, I think it's becoming clear that this team is just flawed architecturally. In a way. It should be. They haven't had time to build the house. Fair enough. Yeah. And so, so I think that should affect how they look at the trade deadline. Do you extend Austin Reeves? So you can just, he becomes at least a more tradable asset at that point. Post LeBron, what are we doing? Is he sticking around? But yeah, I think as a Laker observer, I'm starting to look towards the summer as being the most interesting part of 2026 for that Lakers organization. Now, I know Gabe Vinson was out last night and Jackson A's was out last night. But I actually wrote this down because my brain was like, am I seeing this correctly? They played a lineup at one point last night that was Jake Leravia, Luca Donchitz, LeBron James, Jared Vanderbilt, and Maxi Kleba. And I'm like, I don't even know what that is. I mean, it's so enormous, but so slow and old that it can't, it's, it's like a lot of these big lineups, like, oh, it's switchy. That's cool. It's so personal. This one was like, what is this thing? It's so slow. And we should give some shine to the other team, the Rockets, who came into this game off a horrible loss to the Clippers, having lost a couple of really bad crunch time games. A lot of questions swirling about, I don't know, is this team too stagnant, late in games? Are they too predictable? Do they not have enough shooting? And those are fair questions and they are predictable. And there's a lot of standing around and there's a lot of like, Shengun save us, KD save us. I think what's going to get lost in the Christmas sort of hoopla of all these games is the move to start Tarry Eason over Josh Akogi is potentially a really big deal. And I kind of joked on this podcast a few episodes ago that I'm not sure how seriously I can take you when Josh Akogi is like this heavily involved in your team and he's making shots and all that. But when you have Akogi plus a center plus Amon Thompson, it's just so cramped that no matter how many of your own misses you rebound, it just becomes a little too tough to score. Eason for Akogi solves that issue. Not only that, it unlocks lineups where when Amon Thompson rests and boy, was he incredible just eviscerating the Lakers, every matchup he wanted big, small, whatever. When he rests, now they can play lineups with the center is the only guy on the floor who's a non shooter. And it's like, oh my God, look at all this space the Rockets have to work with. I think Eason, his health is a big deal. Finney Smith came back, like rounding out their team like that is don't sleep on that. That was a big deal. Huge deal. And they are much better at offense than I thought they would be this season. No matter if it's Akogi or Eason, like the Reed Shepherd thing is another thing we should call out. He looks really good. He looks like he's one of the best shooters in the NBA period. And he's given them offensive competence, particularly as a jump shooter next to Kevin Durant that gives that group actually some firepower from the perimeter, which is one of the big concerns when Van Vleet went down. So the Reed Shepherd stuff, I think EMA didn't really want to see this much Reed Shepherd, but it has worked. And look, one of the big hand up moments for me this year is I didn't think this Houston Rockets offense was going to be very good without Fred Van Vleet. And they've been very good. So hand up, but a lot of that has to do with Reed Shepherd. Now they get Tari Eason back who isn't emerging like, is he a good catch and shoot guy? I'm still looking at the numbers, but they're starting to look promising. And like he gives them another corner, but they're just a deeper team. The start of the night though last night, and I think what JJ lost his mind about was the starting front court of the Lakers, Hatchimora Lebron, and who started it at the center point. Aiden, Domin Aiden. Those three dudes combined for six rebounds, Zack Lo. Alperin Shengun had 12. So just they got their ass kicked the old fashion way in the Moses Malone sense on the glass. And I think that just really, you know, when you play the Rockets, you know, you have to rebound. And they just didn't, didn't answer the bell there. Well, Lebron's 40, Rui has never been a good rebounder and Domin Aiden just, it looked Alperin Shengun and C.B. Adams are going to beat the shit out of you and you're ready for that or you're not. And you either want all that smoke or you don't because it's not, it's not fun. Eason, one thing, Eason's catching three has been amazing. I'll tell you this, and he reminded everybody why it was the terror twins last year and not just on men Thompson. That dude will take the ball from you. You're a little casual with it, like hold it like a little loaf of bread. That dude's stealing it and going the other way. He will take your cookies for steals last night. Hot take Christmas takeaway, stupid Christmas takeaway number two for me. We need a floor, we need a floor for teams promoting their own players for All-Star. I'm sorry, Indiana Pacers. I can't see a tweet where it's like, vote Benedict Mathurin, your votes count triple today. Charlotte Hornets, I'm calling you out. Vote Brandon Miller, who's barely played the entire season. Your votes count triple today. Cavs.com, vote the entire core four for All-Star. Don't just ignore the fact that Jared Allen gets benched in crunch time every game and Darius Garland is barely played. Here's the case for Darius Garland. We need a floor, we need Adam Silver to impose a floor of just like, this is the worst player that can be tweeted for All-Star votes. That's all. Do you have a candidate? We need to name this, the blank threshold. Is it like a Zach Levine? I'm trying to think of who else it could be. If your team is more than five games below 500, you're disqualified from any kind of tweets. So I will say, I would call it either the Dylan Brooks or Josh Hart rule. Very good players. Like you could make actual cases for those guys to be fringe All-Stars. Anything below that, I just don't want to see it. I have a hot take. Christmas take number three, four. Nicole Yocuch is the MVP of the league again. I had that, that was mine. I just looked at the betting markets, whether you're looking at FanDuel or you're one of these, you know, these whiz bangs who's looking at Polymarket. Yeah, we have a horse race again and one of the horses is gaining on the other one or we have a two horse race. Pass them, pass them. Yeah, and then according to Zach Lowe, Nicole Yocuch passed SGA as the Thunder have gone through this three game slide against the Spurs. Nicole Yocuch with many of his comrades in street clothes has looked as good as ever. 56, 16 and 15. I know we said that earlier, but that's insane. That's an absolutely crazy stat line, 18 points and overtime on a Christmas night win, fouled out, Rudy Gaubert, the assists are insane, the mid-range game, his ability, as you pointed out earlier to hit two huge threes down the stretch in that game, that's not even the strongest part of his portfolio, but when he needs it, I'll be a 45, 45% three-point shooter right now. That's fine. He's the best player in the world. It's not close and you're right. He is now the MVP favorite. He was the best player last year. I think we all agreed he was the best player last year. Most valuable is always allowed, that V word, is always allowed for a little bit of fun cognitive wiggle room. And what happened last year was A, Shay had an unbelievable historic Jordan-esque season in which he was neck and neck with Yocuch and sometimes a little bit ahead of him in all the advanced stats that Yocuch usually lapsed the field in by a mile. And B, the Thunder won like 18 more games than the Nuggets or some crazy number of games. And at some point, if it's that close statistically, and it was close last year, it was actually close. And one team wins that many more games, even if that team is built in ways that the other team can't dream about to win regular season games, the historic significance of the win total to me just becomes the tie breaking deciding factor. What's happened this year is there is no big win gap right now. It's three games and three fifths of Denver starting lineup is injured. Two fifths of it has been injured for quite a while. Now Cam Johnson is going to be out four to six weeks, according to Chris Haynes, which is a big blow for them. He had just started to get going. So the wins gap thing has vanished. And if you look at the advanced stats, that sort of neck and neck thing is not the case this year, whether it's VORP or Bipolom or Schnurps or Windsheers or whatever PER or whatever thing you want to do. It's not neck and neck. Yolkic has a big edge in pretty much all the, you can find one here and there, like the Dunks and threes adjusted plus minus shades still a little bit ahead. But this is a different landscape than last year where we all understand who the best player is and all the other arguments now it's just one day past Christmas. Tons of stuff could happen, but Yolkic has reclaimed the throne. We agree. Yeah, no notes. My hot take, sort of related to the Spurs. The NBA is talking about changing their tanking rules. And I'm just going to say, can we please get it right this time? Let's fix tanking for real this time. It's a scourge on the league. Yes, I believe the Spurs have sort of inspired this with their number one, number four, number two picks and consecutive drafts and sort of taken the fast lane to the top of the NBA. But it came out last week. I know you briefly addressed it on your last show, Zach, but dude, this is a big deal. Tanking is an embarrassment to the NBA. And I want to get your thoughts on, you know, is there a solution that you're really sort of excited about or in favor of? Do you think there's anything the league can do? It's a very hard problem, but they got to get it right. What are your thoughts? I would like to hear more from experts who can model this idea that the lottery positions are determined by some formula where you, up until a certain date, its losses, like it is now, the losingest teams have the best odds. And then after that date, you get some form of credit for wins. I don't know exactly how that would work, but there's something about that that I like because the last two months of the season are so abysmal in so many places in the NBA. I need to learn about the ripple effects of that more. I don't know how I feel about this idea that you can't pick in the top whatever two years in a row or three years in a row because that might have some unintended consequences that I'm not sure I've been thought through all the way, including like, if I'm team B and I know that team A, who's worse than me, is prohibited from picking in the top three, or whatever, does that make me more likely to then tank? Does it just sort of shift the tanking incentives the other way? The odds, I like where the odds are now, how they squeeze them a little bit so that it's less profitable to be the worst team, even though it hasn't really changed teams behavior all that much. Is there room to squeeze them a little bit more? I don't know. I don't like a totally equal lottery. I don't like the more radical idea that all 30 teams have an equal chance at every pick, or that the even more radical idea that the best team should pick first, because I think those to me, I've always said, they sound like good ideas until the Thunder get the first pick in the draft. No, ironically, the Thunder made them get the first pick in the draft. But the overall solution to all of the NBA's problems is not alcohol, like Homer Simpson once said, although that is a great solution, a cause of and solution to all of life's problems. It's shortening the season. It's the silver bullet for everything. And you might ask, well, how does this impact tanking? It impacts tanking, because if it's a 55 game season, and I'm the jazz and I get off to like a much better start than I anticipated, I'm not bailing out with 30 games left versus 60 games left. And I have actual time to bail out. So I don't know. Do you have any that you like? Because this problem is going to keep happening, obviously. Yeah, I don't. And like, I know the people who are working on at the league office, and I would just say that's a hard problem. But we got to get it right. I think we're the only league in the world where teams aren't trying to win every game on purpose. Like that's a big issue. And when you watch youth sports, you watch college sports, the idea that a team would be losing on purpose is insane. And we have to get out of that somehow. So I don't have one. And I would also add like the current CBA has made free agency harder and made trades harder. So building through the draft and first round picks are more valuable than Everzac. And so that is only sort of steering more tanking behavior. So I think there's this macroeconomic sort of thing that they've set up where, okay, it's harder to trade for good players, it's harder to get free agents. So it's almost steering more of us towards the bottom of the standings in the top of the draft. So I don't have a solution. I know it's a hard problem, but I want to see it more than anything. That's my Christmas wish, I guess. Okay, two more Christmas quick Christmas questions. And then we'll go number one. Do you feel if you are Kenny Atkinson or Kobe Altman more confident in your team or less confident in your team after coming in a couple nice wins with Charlotte? I don't really care. You beat Charlotte and the Pelicans, whatever. Rickety season for the Cavs. I've been, I went to the Bulls loss last week when the Bulls embarrassed them and ran them out of the gym, put me up to Defcon one. I'm officially going down to Defcon two. But how much do you feel more confident, better, worse after competing against the Knicks at Madison Square Garden and ultimately blowing a lead to Tyler Colick, Jordan Clarkson, Mitchell Robinson and the rest of the Knicks. How are you feeling today? Yeah, I'm feeling better. I think I feel much better. We're getting healthy. You know, we haven't had our whole team much. I don't feel great. So it's not like, hey, everything's great here, but I feel much better, dude. And if they would have won that game, which kind of got either way last night or yesterday afternoon in New York City, I would feel great. But I feel good. Let's see everybody Garland making plays, Mowgli making plays, Les Lowe on Donovan Mitchell. Let's get back to whole. They've played 32 games. There's 50 left. Can we win 30 or 32 of those 50 and feel good about it going into the playoffs? I feel much better than I did a few weeks ago, or I guess a week or two ago. I feel, I feel better too. I'm officially going to Defcon two. They win their next game. I'm going to, I'm going to call it Cavscon. I'm going to Cavscon three if they win their next game. Garland, this is about a week and a half now of him looking like Darius Garland. Now I need to see it sustain without these setbacks that happen for two, three weeks, a month, whatever, before I really get confident. I think they know if the Knicks are the measuring stick in the East, which I think they are along, but maybe the Pistons are right there with them. But I think the Cavs know a good plan of attack for the Knicks. They go at towns on the pick and roll with all their guards. They have screen the screener plays where they make him run through a gauntlet and move his feet and all that. They hunt Brunson. I think they have a pretty good offensive game plan. And Meryl getting healthy has sort of reinforced the idea that movement shooter in the starting five, eventually Max Truce is a better fit than the Andre Hunter in the starting five. Obviously, Mowgli came back and then Kokei. All of those, and by the way, it feels like Donovan Mitchell's effective field goal percentage when the Cavs are down by six in the last minute of the game is like 5,020%. It's just like he just never misses. And he dunked the entire entirety of Madison Square Garden late in that game. It's not just that he makes every shot there spectacular. It's a possession that's supposed to be like a lockdown defensive possession. He goes in like video game dunks it. It gets on the easiest level. I do agree with that. He is one of the guys you want to have with the ball at the end of a clutch game. Now they are at Houston, at San Antonio in the next few days, then home for Phoenix, Denver, Detroit. So this five game span is a real test. We'll see when next time I'm on the Zack Lo show what level of CavsCon we're both on. But keep your eyes on the Cavs. I think they're the right team to watch over the next week or two. Can I make the counter argument about why I can only go down to CavsCon two and not CavsCon three after a very strong Christmas showing? Yeah, of course. Number one, I blew a lead. Number two, Mitchell Robinson, Jared Allen's lunch on the offensive glass for like the seventh consecutive season, it feels like. Jared Allen had seven points only a couple of times where he asserted his size. He had a post up against Josh Hart and a face up drive by Mitchell Robinson. Other than that, I've seen this movie before with Mitchell Robinson. Obviously, Mitchell Robinson's health is a little bit of a question mark for the Knicks. But I don't feel, and Kat, with the Knicks, I think up two in the last minute of the game, just zooms right around Evan Mobley for an offensive rebound on the left baseline and a put back to put the Knicks up by four. The way they lost, falling from ahead and getting bullied by a team that the Knicks, the Knicks aren't perfect. The Knicks wouldn't be the favorites in the finals against whoever comes out of the West. The Knicks are going to have a hard time getting out of the East, even though they've been my pick. They always leave you wanting a little bit. Obviously, they have defensive issues and all of this. The one thing you could not question about them is they are a resilient, tough, effing team who is never out of a game. And there's something about their spirit that I find irresistible. But the manner of that loss getting bullied on the glass by the Knicks, big guys is like PTSD for me if I'm a Cavs person. That's a good point. And just a quick shout out to Mitchell Robinson, who turned the NBA Cup final around with his incredible activity on the glass in Vegas. And again, on Christmas, he's one of my favorite rotation players. Just the American Steven Adams, many are calling him just a great offensive weapon on the glass for the Knicks and turning missed shots into second chances, as well as anybody this side of Steven Adams. It's incredible and he gives them just a huge energy piece for a team that doesn't really have that when he's off. And Colac too, by the way. So, the Mike Brown era in New York, some of this depth is changing the looks at the end of games, some options with Josh Hart or whatever. But Mitchell Robinson, man, what a run he's had the last week or two. Well, Josh Hart went out too at the end of that game. Hopefully, again, we're recording this in the morning. We don't know the news. Hopefully it's not serious. Josh Hart seems to be one of those people who falls and tweaks something and gets right back up. The last thing that we need to address is Anthony Davis got injured, groin spasms against the Warriors, left the game early. I don't really even know what to say because it groin spasms. You just, again, we don't know the news. It could be day to day. It could be two weeks. It could be a month. I'm beginning to, I don't even think worry is the right word. I'm beginning to think this is just it for the Mavs this year that just doing nothing is the right move across all fronts. I don't think, look, if he's out a month, there's not going to be an Anthony Davis trade. No team is going to give you major stuff for a guy who's injured yet again. I never thought there was going to be a huge market for him anyway, as I've discussed. I just think the Mavs are, everyone is fretting in Dallas because this is the only drafts pick they control for the next five years. This is their one chance to tank and get a high draft pick. And so that's sort of fueled the trade AD. This and that. I just don't think there's a really good AD trade. There's seven and five in their last 12 games. There's something fun happening with Cooper and Anthony Davis together. And no matter what they did, I don't think they could out lose any of the following teams. I don't think they can out lose Utah because of the pick that Utah owes. I don't think they could out lose Sacramento because they're Sacramento. I don't think they could out lose the Wizards. I don't think they can out lose the Pacers who are in the greatest one year tank position since the Spurs tank for Tim Duncan. And I actually, despite the fact that they're playing really frisky ball and some of the young guys are starting to pop a little bit, I don't think they can out lose the Nets. And so if I'm stuck in that nether world, I'm not making an Anthony Davis trade that sucks just to make it, particularly now since he's injured. I'm riding it out. I'm going to sort of organically soft tank my way and hope the lottery guards are kind to me like they were last year, maybe not this kind. And I'm coming back next year with AD and Kyrie and Cooper flag. And I'm actually not that I'm taking a shot, but I'm fine with that as the outcome and post-pointing this. But it just sucks to see this dude limp off the floor like once every whatever weeks, it just sucks. I'm sorry. It sucks. I think that's where this lands. I think they don't do anything major with Kyrie or AD. Obviously they have Cooper flag. He looks better every week. By the way, the Nets of the best defense in the NBA over the last 10 games. In the last month, or second, I think they might be first now after what's happened with the Spurs of the Oklahoma city. Yeah, I just did my efficiency landscape post and I noticed that they'd won six to the last 10. Their defense is better than the Thunder over the last 10 games as a stunning stat. So maybe they're not tanking. But look, I think the last few drafts we've seen guys teams move up, whether it's the Spurs to get Harper, or obviously the Dallas Mavericks themselves to get Cooper flag. So the soft tank letting Cooper develop, you know, I think in a Western conference, that's the best you can hope for. And then maybe you luck out again and you come back with an incredible new rookie next year and you have Kyrie, healthy and AD ready to go and Cooper flag in year two and you could make some noise. I do think that's where this lands. I do think that's how they should approach it. Maybe Gafford or PJ Washington, there's a different answer there and they're able to get some assets back. But yeah, in terms of AD, I don't think there's anything coming down the pike. Kurt Goldsbury, it's a pleasure to podcast with you. As always, happy holidays. I hope Santa was good to you other than the NBA games that we got. And I will see you soon, my friend. Happy New Year, Zach Lowe. All right, that's it. Hope everyone had a great holiday. Hope everyone's having a great holiday. Stay safe out there. Behave on New Year's Eve. Thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to the one and only Kurt Goldsbury for joining. Thanks to you for listening to and watching the Zach Lowe show. Must be 21 or over in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming Gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. 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