S3:EP 10 - Beyond Fear

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I've just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman, a criminal, a hero? Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura, and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I remember every detail. Down to the color of the grass or what flower was in the vase. Have you ever had your brain, it'll be thinking of memories, And it's almost like if you open a book and you flip through the pages so fast, and it's like clips of memories in my brain. Like, I'll be awake during the day and just like... And it could be like a memory of us sewing in the sewing room or doing something in the kitchen. Or we didn't go to the dentist, so they had the dentist tools to kind of clean our teeth. You know, memory of that. Just little random things. There's a stickiness to Lindsay's memories. Images and phrases crop up again and again, sometimes unprompted. These memories are vivid and immersive. There's this one memory that feels like a tiny encapsulation of so many things Lindsay faced back then. A memory we came back to several times. It's from her early days as a maiden, a time she could have gotten help, when someone could have seen something was off. I had to go to the dentist. I think I had like a really bad cavity or something like that. This was back when the maidens were still allowed to go to the dentist. They weren't using their own dental tools yet. My mom had to take me because I'm only 14. And I remember being in the dentist's office, in the chair, and the dental assistant noticed the ring. The gold ring Victor had given her in the spiritual marriage ceremony to mark her commitment to him. She said how pretty it was and asked me about it and what it meant. And I froze. I didn't know what to say. I was not prepared for that question. And, you know, I was also, like, scared of the outside world now, too. just so afraid of pretty much everything. And my mother answered for me. She told the lady that it represented just my service in the church and that I had made a commitment to serve in our church and everything. And the lady was like, oh, that's great. I remember we didn't really talk on the ride home. Like, my mom and I didn't say anything to each other, but she told Victor what had happened. And I got in trouble because I wasn't prepared to defend myself and that I didn't have an answer to give to these people. He was definitely angry. Basically, he told me I needed to be prepared because we didn't want anyone maybe even getting an inkling that something wasn't right. I needed to make sure that I was ready to have an answer if that happened again. At this moment, maybe Lindsay's mom saw an opportunity to show her loyalty to Victor. To live in the light, as Victor would say. Even if it meant turning in her own daughter. The person she was protecting here was Victor. Lindsay was the liability. Now, on the outside, Lindsay would have to figure things out, like how to interact with a mom who had treated her this way. She'd have to decide what kind of a mother she would be, how to spend her time, who to trust, how to move on. From Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts, this is The Turning River Road. I'm Aileen Lance Lesser. And I'm Erica Lance. Part 10. Beyond Fear. For most of Lindsay's life, she'd been told who to be and what to believe. Then, once she was finally out, she'd experimented and explored, totally drenched in her newfound freedom. Now she had to start settling into who she was. Lindsay had what was perhaps the first chance ever to build her own identity. What would she discard from the past? And what would she keep? After Lindsay left River Road, she went to therapy. And one of the topics that came up a lot was her relationship with her mom. Her therapist encouraged her to write a letter to her mom. Not to send it, but just to write it as an exercise. Just for me to get my feelings out. Let me see if that's in this one. Oh, yep. Right here. This was written September 18, 2012. Oh boy. Some of this I might not be proud of. I think it's pretty harsh, but here we go. Dear Mom, or is that what I should even call you? I feel like I haven't really had a mom for the past 12 years. I thought a mother was supposed to protect her children and love them and nurture them. Remember when the sheep used to have lambs and how they would protect their babies when the dogs came around? I thought that's what real mothers were supposed to do. One of the things that hurts me the most is that when I came to talk to you and dad the first time, you didn't even give me a chance to tell you the pain I was living in and the hurt that I have. You didn't even give me one chance. All you said was, whatever you have to say, you can tell your dad. I don't want to hear it. You didn't even say you were sorry that I had to go through that as a child. Do you know how much that hurt me? What kind of a mother are you? On the other hand, I'm going to be a great mother someday. My kids are going to be so loved, and I will support them and protect them with my life, which my real mother never did for me. maybe christ will come back in 5 10 or 20 years who knows but if my kids want to go to the olympics go to college be a lawyer or a musician i will do everything possible to help them achieve their dreams and goals you will never ever be a part of their life ever this may hurt you but this is how i feel and i'm learning through my therapist to get my feelings out and not hide them like i did for so many years. Oh, and if you are going to stick with Victor, you are sick and you have obviously decided to stay with my rapist who calls himself an apostle. Have a good life. Goodbye. Oof, I haven't heard that in probably since then. I thought maybe I would regret writing some things, but I don't, honestly. Lindsay wrote this letter in 2012, the year she told her parents about the abuse. That same year, her mom Peggy decided to leave Lindsay's dad. According to what he told police, he was totally surprised when he came home to find divorce papers in their mailbox. Peggy left no note, gave no warning. She was gone. She'd moved out to Washington to be near other River Road members. A few years later, once Victor was in jail, she visited him, called him on the phone. Peggy clearly still supported Victor. So it surprised Lindsay when she received a voicemail from Peggy. It was 2016 and the days leading up to Victor's sentencing hearing. Lindsay's daughter Frankie was two years old. Hello, Lindsey. This is Mom. And I just wanted to tell you that I've been thinking so much of you and that I'm sorry for helping you over the last few years and that I love you a lot and miss you a lot. And like, I've never met Frankie, but I wanted to know if you guys I've had any needs that I could help with. If you want to call me or text me, that would be great. And hopefully I'll hear from you. Okay, I love you. Bye. I remember when I first heard this, I was like, over the last few years, what happened to almost the majority of my life that you weren't there? I don't know. The fact that she thought me hearing that would somehow want to reach out to her after she completely took Victor's side. Yeah. At the time, it just didn't feel genuine. Now, it still doesn't even feel genuine. And then to have the guts to say, and I've never met Frankie. Well, no shit. You know, like, I'm not crying about it because it doesn't make me sad. it just like makes me angry. I couldn't imagine being a mother and putting my daughter through so much evil and abuse and then supporting Victor all the way through the trial and then leaving a voicemail like this. Lindsay never called Peggy back after that voicemail. She didn't want her parents in her life. She decided to cut them off. She never looked back. Lindsay's siblings and other family members are another story. They still support them. There's family members who still defend my parents and would say, oh, they were just brainwashed, was demon possession. They didn't know what they were doing. my aunt, one of her sisters, said it to me yesterday. Oh, Peggy was just brainwashed. She didn't know what she was doing. If she was in her right mind, she wouldn't have done that at all. And I got off the phone call thinking, one, how dare you say that to me? How hurtful. All these years, it just seems like an excuse. You were adults. You do have control. It wasn't like they were born into this. My parents were, had lived a normal upbringing with their families. And were you really brainwashed? Or is that just an excuse you say because you don't want to face the reality that you did such an awful thing in letting this man rape your daughter for all those years? I was wrestling with that one today. Ugh, I don't know. I just, it's something that, especially like my family members, and I always think if you guys had seen this on the news and it was some people you didn't even know, you probably would be like, oh my gosh, they deserve to be in jail. How could they? But because you're blood-related, that somehow excuses them from this terrible crime that they committed, really. I hope every single one of them listened to this this whole thing because the majority of them I don think really want to know what happened and they should Hello. Hey, Lindsay, it's Erica. Hi. Hey, how are you doing? Good, how are you? I'm good. Yeah? Recently, Lindsay said she needed to talk, so we got on the phone. I feel like I've lived a month in these past two and a half weeks because trying to process this, it's been crazy. I'm just going to jump right into what's been going on. Yeah, totally. I got a text from one of my aunts that said my mom was being rushed to the hospital because she had a heart attack. Oh, my God. and it's really weird you know I think my emotions I wasn't really hearing much about what was going on with Peggy my mother so I finally reached out to one of my sisters on Wednesday she told me that she had just landed in Philly and was going to go see my mom and would keep me updated so then she did text me the next day Thursday and said that unfortunately she had suffered an anoxic brain injury so I guess she was out of oxygen for about 30 minutes so she was declared brain dead. My one aunt the one who supports Peggy all of my siblings are staying at their beach house while my mom was in the hospital and knowing that they all like support my mom and they're talking about things, but like just feeling like the outcast again. One of Lindsay's sisters wrote on Facebook about what an incredible mom Peggy was, that she made each of her kids feel special, that she was always there for them. Lindsay thought, why couldn't my mom do that for me? She had some people in her corner Two in particular Her Aunt Frances and Aunt Bird Two of Peggy's sisters Aunt Frances was the first person Lindsay called When she heard the news about her mom Lindsay told her she wasn't sure she wanted to go to her mom's funeral I said the only way I will go Is if you decide you want to go And Bird and I will be holding your hand But Aunt Frances warned Lindsay to really envision how that would feel, to go there on the day and hear everyone showering Peggy with praise. After some thinking, Lindsay decided not to go. So instead of going themselves, her two aunts acted fast and got flights to visit Lindsay. They would be with her on the day of the funeral. We were so excited on the plane. Can't wait to see Lindsay. It's going to be so much fun. We would tell everybody, we're from Pennsylvania, but we're going down to see our niece, Lindsay. We were like little schoolgirls, like, we can't wait. When they landed, Lindsay picked them up at the airport. We were tracking her on Find My. They should be coming around the corner, coming around the corner. And all of a sudden, they were like, we saw them. Frankie, my daughter, calls Frances, Francois. Frankie rolls down the window. She's like, Francois, Francois, yelling. She's like, they're not hearing, Mom. I'm just going to jump out and go get him. I'm like, no, stay in the car. We were so excited. Lindsay and her aunt streamed the funeral online. It was painful to hear all these wonderful things said about her mom. One of Lindsay's sisters called Peggy her hero. But Lindsay had Frances and Aunt Bird. You hear of these cults, and you think, how could anybody be drawn into that? And then your sister is, and it's like, what? Like, it's mind-blowing because we grew up in a normal Catholic family with normal everything. Middle class. We were supported. We were all involved in extracurriculars. We did well in school. It just doesn't make any sense. Aunt Bird remembers when her sister Peggy wrote them all a letter to say she and her family were moving to Minnesota. It was a letter that said, we're strong in our beliefs. If you try to write us and try to dissuade us from our beliefs, we will end conversation. You will never have contact with us again. You will not be able to talk to our children. We all sort of were stepping on eggshells to make sure that we didn't completely sever the communication. So we knew from day one that it was a call. Antbird visited Lindsay's family once in 2000 out in Minnesota. And I drive up and the kids were just standing there. They didn't put their arms up to hug me, nothing. And I hadn't seen them in two years. And they just looked at me and Peggy said, you won't be seeing Lindsay this visit. And I was like, what do you mean? It's been two years. We're in Minnesota. And she said, you won't be seeing her. She's living on the camp with some families. And I was just like, so it was a terrible visit. Peggy was on my heels. She would not let me be in the bedroom with the kids, with a door open. Aunt Bird knew these kids their whole lives, and now she wasn't allowed to speak to them. When they sat at the table together, the kids wouldn't talk directly to Aunt Bird. They'd ask their parents questions about her, and their parents would respond for her like the kids weren't allowed to talk directly to her. As we were leaving, going down the lane, I was bawling. We went back to the hotel, and I just, I took a shower, and I was just crying in the shower to my husband, like, why can't we see Lindsay? I said, what if she's pregnant? And they don't want us to see her because she's pregnant. and she's only 13. And I thought, I know that's a far-out thought, but why, if after two years, can't we see her? So at that point, I felt like I lost my sister. Antbert's husband actually called the local police to check in on them. They told him they knew the group was there, but they didn't really have the grounds to do anything. But now that Lindsay is out, Aunt Bird and Aunt Frances want to be there for her. I will never not support my niece. I know I say a lot, but you truly are so strong. So strong. And I was so proud of her. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. he became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search warrant. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said, she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I have done nothing except get pregnant by the f***ing bachelor! Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, a.k.a. Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America was at a breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the years since leaving River Road Fellowship, Lindsay had stopped relying on the family she'd been born into. She looked for family in other places. Maybe that meant finding a partner. I just want that, like, old-school love that I saw in my grandparents. I just want it to be grand. When she got her first boyfriend, she wondered when to bring up her past and how. I really, really liked him. And he was so handsome. He really was. great personality, killer smile great hair, good family in the beginning it was like we were just in sync I definitely felt like I was falling for him for sure I think I just remember feeling that I wanted to be open and honest with him I really wanted him to know me and know what I was going through at that time. I wanted him to be there for me. We were in his room just hanging out. I finally told him what had happened. And not even in super detail, but just, you know, I was in a religious cult when I was little, and my parents gave me a way at 13 years old to be like a spiritual wife to the leader and being raped all those years. And he said, well, you must have liked it to stay there for so long. Now when we have sex, all I'm going to think about is you and Victor. I broke up with him immediately, just almost shocked that that would be his response. I was not expecting that at all. And so I think maybe part of that is still somewhere, you know, buried deep inside where the thought of dating and opening myself up so raw and to a person who will know me inside and out, maybe that's somewhat of a small fear that just being, I don't know, rejected like that again. Yeah, it was, I couldn't believe you said that. So dating went on the back burner and it stayed there. For a while, so did religion. I got to the point where I wanted nothing to do with God if he was real. Like, why? Why did he leave me there for so long when I was praying, when I tried to leave? Why he would allow this to happen? I just felt like every time I heard somebody read the Bible, all I could hear was Victor's voice reading it. Lindsay focused on other things in her life. She went to college. She took a sex crimes in the law class and shared her story with the other students. She was amazed by the response. People cried. They asked questions shared their own experiences Lindsay found it healing She mostly stayed away from religion for more than a decade But then she moved to Texas and made friends with some neighbors who were involved in a church. Even though these neighbors were religious, she felt no pressure to join. One night, she was over at their place for dinner. We were sitting after dinner, and I said, this is going to sound crazy, but thank you for never inviting me to Bible study. and I was serious. And she started crying and was like, Lindsay, when you told me your story for the first time, I went home and wept just tears of justice because I was so angry for you that that's the way that you heard about the Lord because the God I know is full of love. God's love. The idea to Lindsay was so strange now. God's love, God's love It was all Victor and the elders And everyone around her talked about But it was also the phrase used for abuse For the criticism and control And even for the sexual assault Victor literally called it God's love And what kind of love is that? After dinner, Lindsay's neighbors asked her to stay For their evening devotions, Bible reading and prayers They happened to sing a hymn that Lindsay knew I went home and I opened my Bible and it was like coming home to an old friend. I remember crying and sitting there thinking, I can't believe you still love me. Some former members of River Road don't want anything to do with religion now. But after that night, Lindsay took a step she never thought she would. She decided to try religion again. I think maybe in the back of my mind, I was looking for something more meaningful in life. You know, seeing these people who seemed so fulfilled and content, I was maybe like searching for that, hungry for that. Lindsay attended church with the family in Texas. It was a Baptist church with a simple interior. Gray walls and tanned carpet. Lines of chairs faced a stage. When I look at pictures of the church now, I see how it might have felt more familiar to Lindsay than some ornately decorated church. It reminds me of the photos I saw of early days at the shepherds camp. People standing in front on the stage with guitars, dressed in jeans and sweats. Nothing too fancy. She and her neighbors sat near the back. And while they were singing a song, Lindsay began to cry. Her neighbor looked over at her and grabbed her hand. And I know that maybe sounds weird or some people like, Like, oh, how could she even, you know, trust those kind of people again? But the timing was just perfect. God loves me. He loves my daughter. No matter what, like, the struggles I still have has just been such a comfort. when Lindsay was 27 years old and pregnant with Frankie she watched the show Gilmore Girls a lot she thought maybe this is what her future could look like Lorelai and Rory a young mom and her daughter always laughing together always close Lindsay was so scared back then Fresh out of a cult and unsure what her future would be like But now years later she says she and Frankie have this special bond When I think of my daughters and I's relationship She's nine and I was looking at her yesterday We were watching a movie last night looking at her sweet face And thinking oh my gosh, this is the age that I met Victor It just hit me in that moment that is crazy to me. And from that day on, like from the moment we met him at age nine, our lives were slowly changing. We've had talks already, you know, about strangers, inappropriate people, even at school, you know, if the nurse asks her to do something, you know, like saying no, like talking to me about it, like being very open. We have really good talks about this stuff. And I think back, I'm like, why did I not feel like I could go to my mom? And every time I go looking for the answer, I don't think my mom had conversations like this with us that I have with her now. Lindsay says in River Road Fellowship, no one did. The children there, it seemed like you were being conditioned to not have a voice of your own. So even if you did bring something up that maybe you felt wasn't right, if it didn't align with what Victor or the adults were saying, then you were shut down. One thing that I can't stand is the silent treatment. And I swore I would never, ever do that with Francesca. There were a lot of times when I would get in trouble and just get the silent treatment. Victor wouldn't talk to you and really give you the cold shoulder. And I wouldn't even understand what I had done to deserve that. and him doing that made it a norm to ignore children too. Yeah, I feel like there is this, I don't know if it would be like a stigma in society or whatever, but it almost is like, oh, well, they're not an adult yet. They don't know what they're thinking. They don't even know what they're feeling. They're just acting out when really they are a person. You know, when I got saved and baptized, I had to write my testimony, you know, so that the pastor could share it with the church beforehand. The pastor asked Lindsay to share the story of what happened to her in River Road. I realized in that moment that I had not told Frankie anything. And some of that stuff was in there. And I was talking to some friends of mine. They said, this might be a good opportunity. You know, Saturday night, read it to her, what's going to be read, and then talk about some things. And so we sat down Saturday night and in my testimony and talked about how my parents gave me a way to be a concubine, which people who are older but understand that word, I knew she wouldn't. And so, and like how hard it was. And she grabbed my hand as I was reading it to her and just like started rubbing my hand. And when we got done, she said, Mommy, were you really sad when your parents gave you away? And I said, yeah. She like gave me such a big hug. She's like, Mommy, I am so, so sorry that you had to go through that. She started asking questions. She's like, well, when I go to my new Christian school and the teacher starts saying something, how am I going to know it's not twisted like Victor taught? And I was like, that's such a good question, like at her age to be thinking like that. She told Frankie to talk to her if she ever has a weird feeling. She said they can always talk to someone else too. But it's a fair question. Can Lindsay and Frankie trust the leaders they follow going forward? How do they differentiate what's twisted? What kind of checks are there on that? These are questions they'll have to keep asking. I imagine it could be difficult. An emotional challenge every day to figure out who Lindsay can look up to. Who she can trust. A couple months later, we were talking about what superpowers we would want. And she's like, I would want to go back in time to 1996. And we were with people at that time, so I didn't question it, but I was like, hmm, 96. I wonder why she said that. And I asked her later and she's like, I want to go back then because I would change it so that your parents never met Victor. And like it just, oh, she is so sweet, so kind. It's amazing how she gets it. Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And she gets it clearly in a way that some other people haven't gotten it. And even full-fledged adults. Oh, yeah. I know. They haven't gotten it. Yeah. Frankie's school had a father-daughter dance recently. Dad's not in the picture, so Lindsay decided to go. The first school that let her go to the father-daughter dance. It was also the first time Lindsay would ever go to a dance herself. Lindsay curled Frankie's hair, swiped a tiny bit of mascara on her eyelashes. At the dance, watching her daughter laugh in her new dress, it really hit her. Frankie was going to experience so many things that Lindsay never could. And that didn't make her sad. It made her happy. Lindsay couldn't stop smiling. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain. A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast Doubt the case of Lucy Letby we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong Listen to Doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first Bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search for it. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. this season an epic battle of he said she said and the search for accountability in a sea of lies listen to love trapped on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts what if mind control is real if you could control the behavior of anybody around you What kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America is at a breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. it echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to The A Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In happy moments with her daughter Frankie, Lindsay doesn't think about Victor. But the reality is, Victor still exists in this world, serving time in prison. We reached out to him ourselves, but he declined to speak with us. When he began his sentence in Minnesota, his reputation as a cult leader and sex offender preceded him. He started leading religious services inside. It seems Victor couldn't help but try to play the role of a prophet. But in 2017, Victor faced a reckoning when another prisoner attacked him. You can see it on video. The man entered Victor cell from the main room where the other prisoners were Forty seconds later the guy left the cell Everything seemed normal He just walked away Four minutes later, the prison guard checked the cell with a flashlight. She immediately called out on her radio. The scene was graphic. Blood smeared all over the floor, covering Victor's face. Red stains on his white t-shirt. He was barely conscious. His injuries included a punctured lung and a traumatic brain injury. After that, he was moved out of state to another prison at an undisclosed location. In a TV interview, the man who attacked Victor said he didn't attack him because of what Victor was in for, although he was well aware of Victor's reputation. He said he attacked him because Victor put him in a position where he had to confront him. He says Victor would stare him down, that even the other prisoners noticed. He said, quote, I'm going to say this as clearly as I can. Victor Bernard is a master manipulator of unprecedented scale. Victor Bernard had an agenda, and he only miscalculated in one area and one area only. When he picked out the person he was going to have a confrontation with, he picked out the wrong person. He picked me. He thinks Victor planned the whole thing, baited him so that Victor could be moved out of state to a facility where he could be separated from other prisoners. The attacker had a message for viewers. Quote, Victor is still in prison, but he might not be forever. So it looks like in 2017 that due to a clerical error, Victor's sentence was reduced. from 30 years to 24 years. Did you hear about that? And what was your reaction to that? I remember being shocked. I could not believe that he got his sentence reduced. And I think already 30 years seemed not enough for what he had done to me and Jess and then all the others. So then to know that they went back and argued it down, it just felt like a punch in the gut. So it went from 30 years to 24 years. Then one day recently, Lindsay opened a letter in the mail. It was an update on Victor's anticipated release date. Based on that letter, Victor's prison time would actually end up being just 16 years, basically half of what she'd agreed to. His anticipated release date now is 2031, which is insane to me. It feels like that's right around the corner. How old would he be if he survives until then? Let's see. He was September 14th of 1961 is his birthday. Of course you know that off the top of your head. Of course. He'll be 69 years old the day he's scheduled to be released. Lindsay's not worried about Victor coming after her, but she hates the thought of him getting out and reconnecting with some of his former followers. It's just hard because, you know, this is stuff I'll have to live with for the rest of my life. And so I think for me, I was like, he should then be locked away for the rest of his life. I can't imagine how that must have felt. It's like, if you don't hear about this story, you just assume, oh, they put them away and you never have to think about them again. But that's not the case. Yeah. Victor wasn't alone in creating that system that controlled Lindsay's life, though. So many other adults had to buy into his plan and then enforce it in the community. There were the elders who enforced the rules. Elders sitting in on meetings with Maiden's parents to make conversations more official, even more legitimized and hard to stand up to. Elders by the bonfire the night Victor asked every Maiden to recommit, pressuring 15-year-old Lindsay to return when she thought she'd finally left and was free. And of course there was Jan, Victor's right hand, a woman who allegedly told a child while they kneeled in a garden that at 13, and without realizing it, she'd made a lifelong commitment, that she would never live with her family again. Jan, who allegedly gave children books about sex because Victor wanted better lovers. Jan, who convinced maidens who wanted to leave that they shouldn't because Victor was their true love. They needed to be with him. They needed to stay in the sufferings. The blood of the Lamb covers all sins. And the parents. Parents who didn't take the time to look into red flags, who handed their kids over to live often unsupervised in a house next to a predator. Parents who didn't ask and keep asking their daughters Are you okay? Are you safe? Are you happy? But other than Victor, none of them were charged with a crime. Not because they couldn't have been charged, but because Pine County didn't initially pursue it. Current county attorney Reese Fredrickson told us that when he took office, the statute of limitations had just expired. Oh gosh, it makes me angry. I think it's just a shame that they weren't held accountable. There were many different victims in this group, all feeling Victor's wrath in different ways. But there's no question there were adults near the top who could have said something, who could have done something. I see that in each community we investigate on this show, and it comes up in the real world in so many different ways, tiny or big. People don't fully see the disparities in the power they swim in. They, we, don't recognize our own power, our own privilege. And when we don't recognize it, we don't take action. We act powerless. We justify leaving the most vulnerable to get hurt. As a child, Lindsay did start out powerless. She didn't have meaningful control over her life. But she ultimately fought back and took hold of that power. She knows her power now. I think with sharing my story, I definitely wanted victims to know that there are, no matter what they go through, big or small, that there is a life after all of that, that there is hope. I read something recently where it said you don't even have to have a hope for the future. You just have to be curious about tomorrow, which I loved because there were moments when I remember being in such a dark place, feeling so hopeless and the curiosity of maybe the next day helped keep me going. It doesn't matter how dark the day is. Just be curious about tomorrow. There is a life after all of these things that is just waiting for you. For years, Lindsay's life was so controlled by Victor. He could make her feel worthless in an instant. Hearing his voice or even discussing him, my heart would start racing and my palms would start sweating. But recently, we were talking to Lindsay, listening to some old songs the maidens had recorded. When we played one of the CDs, this came on. He is still constantly abiding. Yeah, that was his voice. Oh, so that was Victor's voice. How do you feel hearing his voice? It's weird. There's no love or affection or anything when I hear his voice. It's almost just like no emotion. It's like the scales have fallen from Lindsay's eyes when it comes to Victor. Not only intellectually, but emotionally. Even physically. She doesn't respond the way she used to. She doesn't get angry. She doesn't get sad. She doesn't start to question herself. Because after years of processing, after therapy, after going to the police, standing up when her own family told the world she was lying, facing Victor in court, after having Frankie, creating a family of her own, finding love that actually feels like love, not control. After all that, Victor's voice feels like nothing to her. Nothing at all. you've taken the power back in a way it feels freeing i remember jess had this tattoo idea she wanted both of us to get and it said beyond fear lies freedom even at that time i didn't quite get the real meaning of it I feel so free, like I've broken free from that cage that he created in my mind. The things I would remember him telling me are the way he would make me feel. It's I've completely shattered those walls and broken out. And it's amazing. It's so amazing. You're beaming. I feel so free. For more information visit www.fema.gov The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Aylin, Lance Lesser, and me. Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound design by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact Checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado So many thanks to all of the people who helped and supported us with this project including Gretchen Gavitt, Jacob Nicola and Theo Silber, Kayla Reed, Mary Lou McLaughlin, Jerry and Christina Lance, Catherine Fenelosa, Andrea Asuaje, Mike Garth, Liz Mack, and Andrew Lesser. Special thanks to Bethann Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, Elizabeth Wachtell, our marketing lead at iHeart Podcasts, Ali Cantor, and the wonderful teams at Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts for their support. Our executive producers are John Parati and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram at RococoPunch and you can reach out via email too theturning at rococopunch.com. I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I've just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it, all I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero? Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.