Jennette McCurdy

This message comes from The Thrive Center. Their podcast, With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King, explores big questions about meaning and purpose through conversations that bring psychology and spiritual wisdom together. Follow With and For wherever you're listening. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? I'm trying to like literally name any other emotion and anger is the only one coming up for me let it go let it out it's just anger baby I'm Rachel Martin and this is wild card the game where cards control the conversation each week my guest answers questions about their life questions pulled from a deck of cards They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Jeanette McCurdy. To me, work is where I take risks and where I say the things that maybe we're not supposed to say out loud. There's no instinct towards safety for me in writing. There never really has been. It's so the opposite for me. If you're a young adult who spent a lot of your childhood watching Nickelodeon, then you know Jeanette McCurdy as Sam Puckett from the hit shows iCarly and Salmon Cat. If not, you still might recognize the title of Jeanette's 2022 memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died. Grim title, excellent book. Turns out this former child star grew up into a writer able to capture some of the darkest parts of human nature with unflinching honesty and devastating humor. Her new book, her first novel, is called Half His Age. And I am so happy to welcome Jeanette McCurdy to Wildcard. Hi. Hi, Rachel. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to talk with you. Round one. You ready? Yeah. Yeah. Memories. First three cards. I hold up three random cards from our deck and you pick one, two, or three. Let's go one. One. Where would you go when you wanted to feel safe as a kid? Wow. What an amazing question. And it couldn't be more timely. I've really been exploring this theme of safety recently, as in, you know, the past sort of three weeks. I do a lot of reflecting toward the end of the year. I really reflect on the themes I want to bring into the new year and what I want to just really consider deeply. And for me, currently, it's safety and finding safety in my body. because I think from childhood, I just did not feel, my environment felt so unsafe and so chaotic that my little body was working overtime to try to find safety, but was really just harboring a lot of anxiety and a lot of tension and had so many little habits and rituals and struggled with OCD. And I think all of that was just a result of not really feeling safe. So now as a grown woman, I'm really honestly just beginning to find that safety in myself. That is really interesting that that word in particular would be something that you're thinking a lot about in this moment. Yeah, I kind of can't believe it. Yeah. So we should just say for people who don't know and who haven't read your book, safety was a big idea. The lack of safety when you were growing up because you had not just a difficult, challenging relationship with your mom. It was an abusive relationship. So safety would have been not something you were super familiar with growing up. But was there a place that you felt safe? Thank you for filling in the gaps there. There are two places that come to mind strangely. So I grew up Mormon or LDS as they call it, Latter-day Saints. You know, as complicated of a relationship as I eventually grew to have with the religion, no longer as not a practicing Mormon at all. But I felt safety in those walls and I felt camaraderie and I felt security. And then the other place sort of, I was going to say for the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's kind of the same end of the spectrum, Disneyland. I'm so glad you brought up Disneyland because it is like this through line in everything you make, Jeanette. There's a lot. Disneyland references. Thank you for noticing. If there's any theme that's going to carry through my work for all time, it will be Disney. I love it. Why? What felt safe about Disneyland? I think, what was it? You know, I really admire— Because I feel very unsafe at Disneyland. As do most people, I feel like. You know, it's just— There's so many people. There's so many—yeah. So many lines. So many mouse ears. When I grew up at Disney, I was not privy to the crowds that it has now. It just was a different time. And so I was used to a very sort of empty Disney experience where I could just run around freely and not worry. It felt like my worries were left behind. And also it was a place where I saw my mother's worries left behind. She seemed – she could still be on edge. She could still be walking on eggshells around her at Disney, but it was a lot better. She seemed to sort of calm down and enjoy herself at Disney. And I saw that, and it definitely had an impact on me. Do you still go back? Now that you're working on safety in general as like a theme in your life, do you still go back to Disney? I do. You do. I do. I'm actually taking a trip to Southeast Asia soon, and I'll be going to Disney in Hong Kong. Oh, you do all the Disneys. I do all the Disneys. You're talking to a real Disney doll here, Rachel. Don't underestimate me, okay? Oh, my God. I feel like that's a whole other episode. We could just talk about Disney. I'm ready. If you want to just cover that. I mean, we could just keep going. Let's see. Maybe it'll come up again. I feel like it might. Okay. Three more cards. One, two, or three. Three. Three. What did you think adulthood would look like when you were a kid? Wow. That's a good one. Is that a good one? That hasn't come up before. I love this one. So what that brings to mind is just being under the table, crouched under the table at a friend's place or a family friend's place. And all the grownups are sitting around talking. And I'm just under the table and the tablecloth's draped over. And I'm just kind of looking at their legs and the body language of their legs. And one person's tapping their foot and another one's kind of twisting their ankle. And it just seemed like adulthood was so boring. They're always talking about like logistics. I'm like, what? This is terrible. Like, oh, and then we have to pick up the pork chop from Ralph's. And then if you want to drop her off at the soccer park. It's just like somebody make this thing more exciting. I was so scared of adulthood just being. A lot of grownupness is logistics. I was so scared it would be boring. It's a lot more fun than I expected. I feel like I've had a reverse experience where childhood was quite stressful and adulthood is quite fun. But, yeah, I definitely – So you're, like, not excited to get there. Yeah, no thank you. Yeah, I get that. I mean, it can be boring, and it can also be beautiful. Okay, three more. Do you think it's more boring or beautiful? What's the percentage? What would you give? Beautiful. I'm into adulthood. Yeah. I'm into it. Yeah, I'm into the small things. It's like you change your perspective. Like, I spend a lot of this part of my life schlepping my children around in cars because now they're old enough to have, like, a little bit of a life, but they need me to facilitate it, which means driving them from this point in their life to this point. And that's super tedious. But it's also, like, when I get annoyed about it, I just sit. I'm like, this is awesome. I got my kids' attention. or if there are other kids in the back, I'm like, I get to see them in their, like, natural habitat and see how they interact. So, you know, not to get all precious about it, but I do think that I'm, you know, how lucky that I got to be an adult, that I even got to be here in this moment, in this carpool. And so even the boring things, I think you have the power to, like, imbue them with meaning, and then they feel less boring, you know? That's great. There you go. What's your percentage on boring versus, I mean, you're a grownup. You're a grownup, Jeanette McCurdy. Boring, exciting? I would say, I think, I would go really low on boring. I would say, I'm going to go like 10% boring. Yeah. That's pretty good. I think, I feel like I've gotten to a good, yeah, a good level. I don't feel very bored very often. And if I do, that's my problem. I've got to find something else to do. Yeah, right. We tell our kids all the time. You've got to learn how to be bored in life. And, like, if you're bored, there's nothing boring. Or even being bored. I love being bored because it basically means I don't have anything going on. And so I have permission to go stare at that wall, which can sometimes be awesome. Like, I think I wish I had more time to stare at a wall. Last one in this round. One, two, or three. One. When did you first find a group of peers who really understood you? after my memoir came out I had actually so the memoir came out when I was 30 I'm 33 now throughout my 20s I had I quit acting when I was 23 almost 24 and I committed fully to writing and of course didn't get anywhere with it for years which I think was great I think I needed to spend that time finding my my voice and figuring out structure and all that and so in retrospect it It was really good that I had that time to myself. But in the moment, it was challenging. I didn't feel – I didn't really feel that I had a friend group, a solid support system. And I really, really craved one. I crave deep connections. I crave genuine connections and deep conversations and really knowing people. And I just thought, God, when is that going to happen? Maybe it won't. And then, of course, every year as I'm getting closer to 30, at that time I was like, oh, once I'm 30, it's all said and done. And, like, nothing will change after that. Then my memoir came out when I was 30, and I found my friend group. Since then, I've become friends with so many wonderful writers. These are my people. These are the people who see me, who get me, who I see, who I get. And I'm so, so, so grateful. That's one of the things I'm most grateful for over the past few years. I mean, having a writing career in the first place, but really, really having found friends and my support system and my group and my people through writing. It's a lot of years to not have had that. And it's especially notable since so much of your childhood was, and adolescence, was with your peers in this, you know, acting in these shows where it's sort of from the outside you would think, oh, they're all friends and they have this little life together and they're all living through the shared experience. And surely those would be bonds that would last a long time. I had some friends, you know, growing up and in my early 20s, but they just weren't those deep connections. It was sort of rooted in that codependent enmesh dynamic that I think we all or many of us know from our late teens and our early 20s. And I think that served a purpose and that was right for that time. But then you go your separate ways and you're kind of just going, okay, well, when will I find the real ones? When will I find the real friends? And I'm really grateful to have that now. How could your favorite NPR podcast get any better? 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From ThruLine, on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts. Okay, let's talk about your book. Yay! Yay! Half his age it is called, this book. Congratulations again. Thank you. So this is a novel. I will attempt to describe this in a couple sentences, and you can add on as you see fit. But on the surface, it's about a 17-year-old high school student named Waldo who falls into relationship with her creative writing teacher who is a 40-year-old man who is also married with a child. This book is less interested in the taboo itself of a student-teacher dynamic relationship and is more interested in the entire portrait of a young woman and all of the contributing factors that lead her to fall for that teacher in the first place. So I really wanted to paint that full picture. And also I wanted to empower women. I wanted Waldo to have a degree of agency that I hadn't seen in a book that covers this subject matter. I really, really, that felt so important to me to find some shred of empowerment in a place where typically it'd be really hard to find. But it was so important for me to include that. I will admit to you, it was hard for me to be in that dynamic in the beginning because it just felt wrong to me. I'm like, what? I had such a visceral reaction to this guy. And I was just like sort of wanted to punch him in the face. Me too. As we all should, I think. Yeah. I hope. But part of me was like, why are we, why is, is it dangerous to hold up this dynamic at all and shine a light on it? What do you think about that? Is it dangerous to hold up this dynamic at all and shine a light on it? I mean, I feel like it's so important to shine a light on it. I feel like the only way out is through, no? Yeah. But to me, that's, I believe that. Yeah. Because it happens. All the time it happens. It absolutely happens. And I think, you know, there's no part of me that romanticizes this dynamic. I stay completely in Waldo's perspective, this young woman's perspective from front to back. She comes off even in this relationship. She just is so self-assured. She's just – she has so much confidence, like far more – and talent, clearly. More talent than she realizes she has. More confidence than she realizes she has. I'm so glad you bring this up because I'm so interested in writing. Female characters who do have more talent than they're given credit for or than they even realize who have so much potential but were dealt a shitty hand. And so they're living in these circumstances that don't help them to take their lives to the next level. And I don't want to victimize these young women. I want to hopefully give them power to assert themselves and find that better path for themselves. Yeah. Wow. It's weird. We were talking about safety earlier. It's not like a super safe book. Like, the experience of reading it, it's interesting that way. It doesn't feel safe. No, safety is what I want in my body, not in my work. You know what I mean? I think, like, to me, work is where I take risks and where I say the things that maybe we're not supposed to say out loud. The more uncomfortable a thing feels to write, the more important I feel it is to write. I try to start conversations. I try to leave my soul on the line with what I write. And so there's no instinct towards safety for me in writing. There never really has been. It's so the opposite for me. I want to ask you more about your discomfort. I'm so curious. I love when somebody gets uncomfortable reading something I've written is my favorite thing. Which I knew you would be okay with it. Yes. I was just like, ah. Maybe it's that I just didn't want this to happen to her. And I didn't want—I wanted more for her from the beginning. She deserves more, right? She deserves more. And you just, you know, the second you pick it up and you read the first, you're like, this is going to be bad. I know this is not going to end well, Waldo. And so I felt like I knew where the book was going. Yeah. And then it flipped. But in the beginning, I was like, I don't know if I can stay here because I'm so angry. Wow. I just got full body chills because that's – there was so much anger and so much charge when I was writing this. I really like to write from anger. To me, it's – for me, it's a really – you know, it's such a mobilizing emotion, but I think it's where I write best from because it's just so charged. I'm such a feeler when I write. Like, I write just with my heart. There's no other way for me. And, you know, as I was writing the book, I was thinking, you know, why this, why now? Why am I writing this? Why is this coming out now? And I try, okay, let me not analyze it. Let me just keep writing and trust the process. This is what's coming out. And then several drafts in, I realized, oh, it's because I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my own past, men that I've been with, ways that I've been treated, and, you know, boundaries that I didn't express for myself, ways that I behaved where I just didn't. empower myself, didn't recognize, to your earlier point, didn't recognize my own power, didn't recognize my own authority. Things that I'm just now at 33 over the past few years, just now starting to come into contact with and realize and appreciate and believe in. And I just had so much anger. And I felt as I was writing it, or as I was wrapping it up and looking back on it, I thought, oh, I think this is going to bring up a lot of anger for a lot of women. I think that's, if there was one emotion I think it's going to bring forward for people, I think it's that. And I think that's great. You have now opened things in me, like looking about my own experience and as so many of us have, experiences that aren't like what Waldo had necessarily, but things that were not right and being mistreated and made to have felt over-sexualized and maybe that's what I'm mad about. Yeah. Maybe I'm mad about all those other things. I will say that piece about being over-sexualized, I think it's also common as a young woman to confuse sex with power because there are systems around us and just so many obstacles at play, right? And when you're young, you know, you get, oh, I'm getting attention over here. Yeah, that sort of makes me feel good. Maybe I have some kind of control over this. Yes. I remember when I first felt attractive to men, when I first started feeling that, I did confuse that with power. I thought that was power. Now I, of course, completely recognize that it is not, that it's really more disastrous. But at the time, it felt like that. And I wish I could. In a way, maybe this is a love letter to that former version of myself and other young women where it's, you know, it's both a love letter and a shake on the shoulders, you know. There are other choices. There are other options. Wake up. You know, this is – things can be better than this. Yeah. You deserve better. Yes. Yes. Okay. Before we leave this moment, I have to ask about the TV adaption of your memoir. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Thanks. This is a big deal. Jennifer Aniston's going to play the role of your mother in this. Not bad at acting. How do you feel about that material? Like now looking at it not as your life and not as your memoir, but as material for a show, like a good story. I imagine it requires some kind of compartmentalization because you're going to be involved in the show. Yes, heavily involved. I'm showrunning, executive producing, created it, of course, and then I'm writing all 10 episodes. So, yes. I'm also playing all the characters. Could you imagine? Like Sarah Snook and the Dorian Drake play. I love her so much. Yeah, it's, you know, I had a bit of distance from it even when I wrote the memoir. I wouldn't have written the memoir had I not had that distance from it. I do think it was so pivotal that I have perspective on my life. It was by no means my diary entries on display. This was something that I had a lot of distance from and a lot of hard-earned perspective and insights that I thought I had to offer. And so it was, to be clear at that point, also a piece of work. And I was able to view it as that. But of course it is my life, you know, and that also can't be denied or ignored. And that's something I've recognized with the show adaptation because this is – there's a lot of people involved. There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And navigating that is – you know, requires a specific set of skills that I've had to learn very quickly because I was not – I was never behind the camera. I was never doing this kind of work, you know, growing up. And what I realize now is, oh, talent is shielded from everything. If you're in front of the camera, you don't hear anything. You don't hear shit. Like, you know nothing. Everybody's like, oh, protect the actor. Don't tell the actor. They are coddled, handled, managed, told nothing, right? Now you know it all. Now you know it all. Now I know it all. Now you know it all. And baby, it's dark. It's dark. It is dark. I'm like, I try to have a sense of humor about it and try to just remind myself, you know what? I'm writing my books. Like, I've got my books. Yeah, you get yourself. I couldn't be happier with the books that I write and with that system. For whatever reason, just the system of the publishing industry, people say what they mean and mean what they say. It doesn't mean you always like it, but there's no – you don't have to read between the lines and question things. Yeah, that's hard. I really, really, really appreciate the literary world so, so much. next round insights three new cards you pick one two or three i gonna go one again I drawn to the ones Do it Go with what feels good What's an irrational fear you can't shake? I'll tell you my thought process on this. It's like it's not an irrational fear, I don't think. I feel like it's a fairly rational fear for most everybody. Okay, we can make it rational. But it's failure. Like failure is the thing. I mean, that's right. I feel like that's for everyone. I'm sure, I mean, you tell me if you have it or not, but I feel like anybody who is driven has some degree of that. I know I have plenty of it. I try to not let that lead my actions or dictate any decisions that I make creatively, but it's, of course, there. Does that feel, has that abated after your memoir? Because I imagine there was a lot of anxiety about that thing. I mean, not only is it your life, it's like, now please take me seriously this way creatively as a writer where you haven't known me that way. And so, but it's who you wanted to be known as. Yeah. So the stakes were high. No, yeah. I'm glad you bring that up. It was, I did really care about being taken seriously. I, you know, I take my work very, I take my work very seriously. But I also, you know, I also have humor in the things that I write. So I hope the things that I write aren't like up their own asses. thank you thanks I'm glad great mission accomplished but um but no I did want to be taken seriously I did want respect you know that's something I didn't feel I had in my former career and I do feel I have that now and I'm really grateful for that um I feel very accepted in the literary world I feel um valued here and so I feel I feel so so grateful but I would say there's there's some degree of that that's there I don't know if that's ever you can ever shake it. No, that's the spark, right? You live on the edge. You have to learn how to manage that fear. But it also, isn't that where the interesting things happen? It's like at the edge of your fear and your courage, like somewhere in between. You're like, yeah. The growth edge, there you go. That's the good stuff right there. Absolutely. I hope people watch these videos. I know a lot of people listen, but I hope anybody listening considers watching the videos because Rachel's hand gesticulations are really something to be watched. I am a gesticulator. It was really lost on radio. I got to admit. It was really lost. Okay. Three more. One, two, or three? Two. Two. When has envy been a problem for you? Ooh. When has envy been a problem for me? In my teen years. Mm-hmm. I wanted to I'm thinking actually of appearance I think this this not to bring it back to the novel but I think there's also Walter the protagonist of the novel feels some of this herself where it's you just want to look the opposite way that you do you just like I had you know I have really curly hair I just wanted bones I wanted nothing more than like bone straight limp lifeless model hair just where it's you got three strands and they're just slightly bent that's what I wanted And, you know, I had a bit of acne and I really, of course, I wanted clear skin. I thought the height of it. Well, so much of what you did was about your physical appearance. It was like how your value was measured, so much of it anyway. Yeah, I'm glad you noticed that because I will say the shift for me actually happened when I entered eating disorder recovery in my early 20s. and it was eye-opening for me and these concepts and questions that were posed now of course sound so simple but I genuinely hadn't considered them I think because of growing up in the entertainment industry and the value system that I mentioned there are certain there's a certain lens that Hollywood looks at people with and so I kind of had that same lens because I grew up in that world but then I enter recovery and my therapist you know said what if you don't have to, because I thought the whole point was about, you know, loving your appearance. That's why you go into eating disorder recovery so you can get to loving your appearance. He goes, what if it's not? What if it's about prioritizing other things over your appearance, valuing other things more than your appearance? That was a genuine life changer for me. I thought, oh, wait, I don't have to, you tell me I don't have to love this thing or accept it. I can just care about other things more. What completely shifted the paradigm for me and changed everything. And funny enough, now I love my appearance. I really, really do. And I think that's because of not caring about it for some pivotal years. Just readjusting your focal point. And it was your focal point for so long. And so to be able to get out of that is a big deal. To have had that sickness for so long when you were young. And to now be an adult and be able to look back on that and appreciate how far you've come and learning to deprioritize that surface stuff. And then coming around to loving how you look is pretty remarkable, Jeanette. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really proud of of overcoming multiple eating disorders. It was hard-earned and something. It's a message that I do hope to share with women because there's often, there are these narratives around eating disorder recovery and that you're always in recovery. You're never recovered. It's always something you have to keep an eye out for. You always have to be mindful. And of course, you know, I get keeping an eye out occasionally, whatever, but I also, from where I am today, I have a healed relationship with food. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want. I love food. I can't believe there were times when I – I mean, I can't relate to my past self in so many ways, which I'm so grateful for. But I want women to hear – I mean, anyone who struggles with disordered eating, I want to hear this, that recovery is possible. Feeling fully recovered, being fully recovered is possible. It's not something that has to haunt you for the rest of your life. I mentioned earlier with the novel wanting to share this message of agency, and it does feel really important. I think there are too many narratives out there that just keep us stuck and keep us feeling powerless and keep us feeling like victims. And I think it's so important that we overcome those narratives for ourselves and for our own health, healing, and recovery. Not to get too – I became very TED Talky. Sorry. No, I'm into it. So many people are afflicted with that. And I just feel like you can't say it enough. You can't get that message out to young people and really young women enough right now. Oh. So. Great. I liked your TED Talk. Last one in this round. I was looking at TED Sound. One, two, or three. One. What's something you think very differently about today than you did 10 years ago? I feel like that fits into everything I just said about the food, the eating. Should we pick a different one? Yeah. Let's skip it. Okay. Let's skip. Okay. So. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? I'm so curious for your answer on this as well. For me, I'll have to say... I'm trying to, like, literally name any other emotion, and anger is the only one coming up for me. Let it go! Let it out! It's just anger, baby. I've said that answer, though, when people have flipped. Really? Yeah, so you go first. Yeah, you go first. Well, no, I think, you know, I grew up as such a people pleaser, as such a, you know, being Mormon, being the good girl, being my mommy's good girl and homeschooled in the entertainment industry. And please like me, casting director. And please like me, director. And just desperate, starved for validation to the point that I completely surrendered and abandoned my own identity for any shred of approval I could get. Regardless of if the person who was approving of me was somebody I respected or not. Oh, that didn't matter. Who cared about that? It was just please love me, please accept me, please validate me, please, please, please, please, please. And I think the thing about people pleasers that isn't really talked about is they're the most resentful, angry people out there. Because you can't have your boundaries violated over and over and over. You can't surrender your own wants and needs over and over and over without fucking getting angry. It's just not possible. And so I think what I was left with post-eating disorder recovery, because of course that was covering up and suppressing so many of my emotions. that it was a very helpful coping mechanism for the time that I needed it for. But getting to the other side of all that, I was then left with anger. And now, I mentioned earlier, I think of it as such a mobilizing emotion. I think it's something I really channel in a healthy way and effectively through the things that I write. But it's something that I feel like anger just suggests, you know, boundaries that need to be set, messages that need to be shared, conversations that need to be started. Anger is so empowering and important, and I still have a lot of it. So there's a lot more to come. Because everybody does. And the whole thing is like learning how to express it and how to wield it and not let it be so disproportionate that it paralyzes you and you can't get out of it. I mean, I have answered this question when it's been flipped on me. with anger too. And it's because of the verb understand. Because I do get angry. I mean, ask my children. I definitely get angry. But I'm not an angry person. But I have angry people in my life. And I have touched those moments of real anger. And so I feel like I do understand it. I understand a lot of where anger comes from. I understand its utility. And I, yeah, I think women in particular have a hard time just being angry, like feeling permission to feel angry. Yes. Don't we all get to be angry sometimes? Like there's a lot of shit you want to yell about and be angry. And, you know, you don't want to be a difficult woman. You don't want to be an angry woman. And so I'm for people having the space and the agency to feel anger. It is an appropriate emotion. And then you got to learn how to express it and not destabilize other people with it who are just innocent bystanders to your rage. Those are my thoughts. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Put that on a shirt. That is so good. Oh my God. Can you imagine? That would be so many words. Put that in with a card debt. Include the t-shirt. Okay. Last round. Beliefs. Beliefs. Beliefs. It's what you think it is. One, two, or three. One. One. Boom. What's the most religious thing about you? That I grew up Mormon. Can I say that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I grew up Mormon. How did that change you? What does that mean for who you are today? You said it was a safe place for you when you were young, but what is the imprint of that religious inheritance on you? It was a safe place when I was younger and while I don I certainly don agree with a lot of what they stand for and think it really quite harmful to various communities and dangerous frankly I do think there was an emphasis on values that I really took from the church And that's something that I literally do a values retool every year. I mentioned December. I really kind of consider. I reflect on the previous year and I consider the year to come. And what do I really want to take with me? What are the themes I want to explore? Do I want to do a little values tune-up? Like do I still – am I living by the values that I said I live by? And if not, does that mean it's time to change my values? Or does that mean that I need to change some things in my life? And I think that's something that I learned from the church. Is God a thing for you? Yeah. Yeah, I would say a gentle, newer relationship for me, candidly, because I had, you know, speaking of anger, I had a lot of anger toward the church and toward growing up in it. And, you know, I mentioned earlier that I really struggled with OCD and it's kind of complicated. I go into it a bit in my memoir, but I had confused what we're told is the Holy Ghost with my OCD. So I thought it was the Holy Ghost talking to me when, in fact, it was just mental illness. So that was its own sort of – its own obstacle. But as a result of that, coming out of my teens and my early 20s, I just felt anger toward religion at large, the religion I grew up in. And so I didn't really – I just said, oh, no, I don't believe in God. I was just angry. And now, of course, I think there's something else out there. Of course, I think there's something bigger than me, than us. But it's, you know, I usually say the universe. That's kind of the language I use. That's what feels best to me. But, yeah, how about you? Yeah, I'm curious if you have any specific sort of practices or rituals or anything that— I literally just started going to church. No kidding? Yeah. I started going to an Episcopal church like two months ago. I have not done that. Are you enjoying it? I have not. It is not – there are parts of it. But for so many years, I was just – I would go into a place like that and I would just judge, judge, judge. And I'm like, this isn't right. This isn't right. This isn't right. And it was just like the perfect being the enemy of the good. And I just decided to release all that and be like, this is a beautiful space. And in this space – and this person on this day said an interesting thing. And I took something away from that. And isn't that lucky? Some days, there's not an interesting thing that I take away. But I sit in a gorgeous space and I'm quiet and I listen to music that I really like. I like like old-timey churchy music. No drums. And then afterwards I meet my neighbors and people talk about volunteering and I feel a sense of community that I was lacking. And so I'm sort of into it right now, to be honest. That's beautiful. It sounds so wholesome. I mean, I don't know. Do you guys make casseroles? Are casseroles involved? I feel like casseroles have to be involved in church activities. I feel like there's a pasta night that's going to happen. Oh, for sure. Somebody's bringing bolognese. Someone's bringing bolognese. Call it what it is. Some potato casserole. It might be. God, I'm so bad at cooking. But it might be me. It might be. I don't know. We're going to see. Right now, I'm just on the edge. I'm not a real joiner. I'm historically not a joiner. So right now, I'm still in an observation kind of situation. So we'll see. We'll see. Cool. Good luck. I hope it... Thanks. It's great. It's a thing. It's a thing I'm trying on. Three more cards. One, two, or three. Two. What truth guides your life more than any other? Wow. What truth guides your life more than any other? This is one of... I can already feel that this will be the one on the way home that I'm like, Should have said that? Like I'll have a better answer on the way home. I already know. This is like a big one. It's not really fair to ask someone to like sum it up. But, you know, whatever. It's my show. What is it? It's what truth is. What truth guides your life more than any other? Like at the end of the year, when you do your values retrospective, is there something consistent that shows up on your list? that you're like, this is how I look at the world. This is who I want to be. This is the truth I want to live. My values are, you know, I really, really value growth. That's the most important one for me. If I'm not growing, I'm wilting, I'm shriveling. I really want to feel that year to year I've grown, that can be in any category, can look a number of different ways. It doesn't have to look one specific way or be in one specific area. But growth is so important to me. And creativity, specifically the distinction between creativity and success, being creativity-driven as opposed to success-driven. That's something I've been really exploring this year and want to bring with me into the new year and years to come. And then authenticity is really, really so, so could not be more important to me. Authenticity, whether somebody likes it or not. setting boundaries that align with my authenticity, saying no when I mean it, yes when I mean it, asking the questions I want to ask, and showing up fully as myself, which in certain contexts is more difficult than others. I think it's no coincidence that I'm a writer because that was where I felt safest to just be all of myself. I felt like the page can contain all of me. You know, I don't know. I would feel uncomfortable. Can I show up on this Zoom and be all of me? I don't know, there's certain settings and systems at play and dances that need to be done and social niceties. And can I be all of myself at this party? Well, probably not because you have 30 seconds of small talk with everybody and, you know, you got to do the dance of socializing. And so I've felt it on the page longer than I've felt it in my life. And only this year am I starting to go, okay, how can I be, how can I show up fully, authentically me for whatever that is that day? How can I do that? So, yeah, growth, creativity, and authenticity, I would say, are fundamental truths for me. Last question. I don't want one to accidentally stick up higher. Okay. One, two, or three. Too bad. It's still going to be one. Even though it didn't stick up higher, we're still going one. Where do you feel most free? When I'm writing. That's so easy. That's like hands down. What does that look like? The easiest answer. You're alone in your head. I'm alone. I don't really – sometimes I'll play music to kind of prime, but I don't write with music. I try to keep it as quiet as possible. In my office downstairs, I've got, like, all the beverages. So I've recently stopped coffee, but I'll do – I've got a decaf, usually in, like, a Christmas mug. I collect Christmas mugs. Yeah, I collect Christmas mugs from anthropology. They're my favorites. I'll have a big liter of water. I'll have a green juice. and specifically, I mean, my favorite draft, of course, is always going to be the first draft. Then the real work begins after the first draft, but the first draft where I'm just not using any of my analytical brain, where I'm not assessing anything or second-guessing anything. My critical mind comes into play after. The first draft is all instinct, all feeling for me, and I just feel my way through that first draft and I really, really, with the quote, how will I know what I think until I see what I say? And so then I look back through that first draft and then I go, okay, what am I trying to say? And then I become critical and whatever and there are many drafts to come after that. But for that first draft, it's complete freedom. It's everything to me. We end the show the same way every time. With a trip in our memory time machine, you go back in time and you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose? I almost made it through the whole thing without getting emotional. Now here it comes at the tail end. And I'm thinking of the moment when I met my partner. We met 11 years ago. We've been together nine years. And he's the best person I've met, and I love him so much. You dedicated this book to him. I did, yeah. And he, you know, it was a time in my life, it was shortly after my mother had died, and I really was lacking trust for people. And really just seeking, I mentioned not really having found my friend group. I was so wanting connection and so craving trust. And then he came into the picture and he completely, I mean, transformed my belief in people. I was able to trust someone, you know, other than myself for maybe the first time in my life. And, you know, of course, so many beautiful things have unfolded since then. But I really consider that relationship the birthplace of so many of the key pieces of my life that I'm so grateful for now. Can you tell me a detail about the day or the moment you met? Yeah. We met through a mutual friend. So he had invited us both to this restaurant that's actually no longer – I thought it would be so fun to do like a date night there and it's no longer around. But it was in Los Feliz. And when I – he walked into the room. He was wearing this blue varsity jacket, these white Converse, and these black jeans and a white T-shirt, which I would discover was his only outfit. Like he only had this – he was like Charlie Brown where he only had white T-shirts, black jeans, and then multiple pairs of plombers. And then he had – yeah, exactly. His little bluejack that would pop on top. He didn't want to think about it. He didn't want to be bothered. And he walked in the room. And up to this point, anybody that I'd been with romantically, I had felt a real urgency toward them. A profound, like, I have to be with them hungry, starving. I need to be with them now, right? And with him, there was no urgency. It was this knowing, bring it back to my body, in my body, that this person's really important to my life and there is no need to rush. And it was calm and it was assured and it was right. The body doesn't lie. Jeanette McCurdy, what a lovely thing it was to be in conversation with you. Thank you for doing it. You too. I really, really enjoyed this. I found it really fulfilling in a deep way. I'm so glad. You can read Jeanette's newest work. It is a novel called Half His Age. Thanks, lady. I appreciate it. Thank you. Hey, if you liked this episode, I recommend checking out the conversation I had with another great novelist, Taffy Brodesser-Ackner. Taffy's the author of Long Island Compromise and Fleischman is in Trouble. and she had an answer about feeling safe whenever she's in motion and it was incredibly beautiful. You should check it out. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and Mitra Arthur. It was edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Becky Brown and Andy Huther. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramteen Arablewe. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then. Thank you.