Building Beauty for Melanin-Rich Skin with Sabrina Dhowre Elba of S’ABLE LABS

Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. I am so, so excited about this episode. This is such a dream come true because our guest is somebody I've been a fan of for a very long time. Her work across the board is something that's so inspirational. I really, really look up to her drive and her initiative to do something so meaningful in so many ways. So without further ado, please welcome Sabrina Alba. Sabrina, I'm so honored to host you. Like you are like my dream guest, so please welcome. Oh my God, I am so, this is like to, honestly, I'm so excited to meet you that I can't even hear you say that. No, it's been a dream. Obsessed with your channels and your knowledge and I can geek out over your content and I'm obsessed with you. So I take that but reflect it back at you. Oh, thank you so much. No, I really, I can't wait to dive in. I mean, like I said, like you do so much and like it just really, I mean, it's very inspiring but I also wonder like how do you manage so many buckets, you know, with your advocacy work and then now you have this beautiful brand and you're an actress and you're, you know, CEO, like there's just so much going on in your life and I wanna dive into all of that but I wanna first kind of have you walk us down memory lane a little bit if you don't mind and tell us like what got you into the world of just like, you know, acting and where did it all start? You know, what's really interesting about that, I wouldn't consider myself a creative person, although I have found myself in lots of creative worlds but I'd like to think this is a Gemini trait. I love to absorb everything and I'm constantly inspired by the world around me. So when I wanna learn something, I become kind of obsessed with that and then wanna learn that and then I wanna learn something else. So I feel like Gemini's do you have a little bit of whiplash from like, oh my God, what's this? What's this? It's like shiny toys syndrome or than anything but I also wanna be like really honest and I promise myself to be more honest about the idea that women can't really do it all. And I think sometimes I get asked that question and I worry about putting on this high expectation for women to think they should be able to do everything. It doesn't mean like sacrifice in some areas. Sometimes it means it might affect the quality of some of the things you're trying to do if you're trying to do everything. But I think as long as you're doing what makes you happy, you're doing everything you need to be doing. So it's just this placing I'm trying to have in the way I talk about my life where I can accept the fact that I'm not trying to do everything. I'm just trying to take it day by day and enjoy the things that I get to enjoy and I don't want it to look like a false universe that I'm building to other young women where they think, oh my gosh, you can try and kind of do it all. And just to be honest about the fact that I've had to sacrifice some things to be able to do other things. Yeah, no, I mean, that's such a, I love that you like really kind of like came out of the gates with that message because that's huge what you said. And I think a lot of times I've had this conversation in my own world, right? Where it's like you're trying to juggle so many things but people don't realize like there's an immense amount of sacrifice that comes into play and then figuring out where to make that sacrifice. And I wanna actually also ask you, dig a little deeper and ask like, where do you feel like in the early stages, right? In your career, where did you feel like you were having to make those sacrifices where it was like kind of like a love hate thing, of like trying to figure out where is that balance for me? Maybe give us an example if you could. Yeah, I mean, even early on from when I first started my university career, I wanted to do this art school really bad. And it was just like sort of like these acting classes and things like that. And my mom was like, there's no way you're gonna do both. I also had to try and have two full-time jobs just to be able to pay for university. So it was like, I think we're just remembering even early on having to make a decision about, okay, maybe I'll park that for now. And then I'll do this. I'll do my part-time uni and then I'll come back and Evan flow. And it's like, I think women are so knowledgeable in that, like an experience in having to make those decisions that we do it before we even noticed that we're doing it. We're like, that's life, right? You're constantly making little adjustments. And the more you add on into your lifestyle, the more you're having to make those little adjustments in constant decisions. And then relationships come into it. And that's always gonna be like a bit of pull and tug of, you know, trying to support each other as best you can. And then you start a business like I did and that's a whole other ballgame. Like I think I always had this mismatched idea of entrepreneurship when I was younger, where I thought, oh, I can pick my own hours and I'm gonna be on holiday. I wanna be on holiday and I just wanna work for myself. And like, yes, working for yourself is amazing, but you will always at that point be the hardest working person in that room because you are the one who decided to start that business. Right, right. And that's the reality that young entrepreneurs have to face when you realize, you know, it means putting in the extra hours and doing all the work and staying longer than everybody else will because that's just in the nature of the game. So I think that was another big blow I could see in my life where I was like, right, so if I wanna do this properly, I'm gonna have to learn to say no to some of the other things that I really wanna do, whether that be, oh my gosh, can I make it to this gala? No, we've got a deadline for something else in the office and can I do fashion week? No, you know, I need to come to be home and focus on family. And it's just those constant adjustments that we're always making as women. I mean, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I find that to be so interesting is now you've taken on a brand and you have your own brand and you're killing it. I mean, why did you pick skincare? I'm so curious. There are so many things that you are, I think obviously your advocacy work is phenomenal and it really speaks to, I think, a lot of people. I mean, myself included. And so when I see somebody with your enthusiasm in that space and human rights and when you come into the space of entrepreneurship, it's very exciting because you bring a part of that, right? So I'd love for you to talk us through that. Like what about skincare excited you and you wanted to start a skincare line? I love that question. You know, I want to say it's probably not exactly where I thought I'd end up. Even though the seeds for it had been planted early on in my teenage years. So I grew up in Vancouver, Canada. And as a young black woman, I was suffering from teenage acne, as most of us do. And I was constantly frustrated with the hyperpigmentation that was happening on my skin. I didn't even know it was called hyperpigmentation at the time. I feel like that word is so democratized now. And even probably not as much as it should be, there's probably a huge segment of our audience who don't know that word that we are educating people about. But growing up, I had nothing that catered to me in that language. I would go to a dermatologist and they might recommend something like a benzel or like, you know, let's just stop the acne really harsh and really quickly. And then my eyes would be inflamed. And then the redness would still cause irritation and hyperpigmentation. I mean, it was this whole thing. I was in that Neutrogena, Clearacell, St. Ives, Olive Scrub, you know, Apricot Scrub Generation, where the idea was to just like tear it off. Let's do the most damage we can do in this moment. That's right. That's right. I have no idea about the cyclical damage that that can cause. And I mean, just even knowledge about sensitizing ingredients and fragrances and drying alcohols. It's so, I wish that I was growing up now where you have the social media sort of democratization of education around skincare. You have other influencers you can look to and speak to who might have skin similar to yours. And you can hear about this issue, like growing up in Vancouver, Canada. I was the only black girl in my high school, for instance. Like, you know, there wasn't many people that I could learn this from. And then my mom on the opposite end of the spectrum, amazing skin, you know, and I'm like, no, we're done. It's always like that. Mom's always have like the best skin. I'm like, well, you did nothing and your skin is blowing all the time. And the funny thing is she would say to me, it's because you're doing too much. You are damaging your skin. And she was a true believer of her natural formulas that she was making at home packed with African antioxidants, the gussels, the turmerics, the black seeds of this world, which have inspired me in my line. And she always had amazing skin, but I just would never give her credit to the foundations that she was teaching me because I was a Sephora junkie. And I thought, no, I need all of these wipes and all these toning pads and all these things. And it's funny when I did start to pair back in my line, because a lot of the line is formulated from that kind of minimal do less perspective, you know, actives that are sort of balanced out for people to be able to use twice a day or formulations that don't overlap actives and within the range. And that knowledge has kind of like found its way into the brand and it has fundamentally changed my skin in the way that I look at skincare. Did I know that she was gonna impart that on me? No, but she has. And then that's why we use like a slogan, like mom's always right. Like, you know, that was a slogan we used really early on in the brand. That was my experience with my mom, but she's also a lot of the reason that I went into the advocacy that I do. So I would say my story growing up and getting into skincare is shaped by a genuinely authentic frustration, but I do think the best ideas come out of frustration. Absolutely. Yes, I could not agree more with that last sentence. And I feel like I'm glad you told us that story because I've had these conversations right on the pod before where I'm like, I don't think people realize like how little representation in skincare there has been for people of color. Like, I know we talk about makeup a lot. We love talking about foundations and that's wonderful because we have to have the conversation it needs to start somewhere, but then skincare is adjacent to healthcare, if you ask me. I know we can't make those claims, right? Like in skincare brands, but I mean, people use this so often when they can't access dermatologists, they can't access estheticians, you know? And we need to do our due diligence there. And unfortunately, the industry from what I've noticed, you know, sitting in my seat, we just haven't had that. Like you want a hyperpigmentation, I just want to kind of roll back to that because that is such a valid point that you made. I still don't think we understand hyperpigmentation because we're throwing the kitchen sink at hyperpigmentation and saying, let's just hope to God, some of this fades, you know? And nothing else pops up. And I just feel like, I mean, even the research dollars don't reflect what we need to do, you know what I mean? They're not being allocated there. So it's huge. And it's funny because they're reflected, you know, sometimes on skin that's easiest to treat. So actually it's kind of been, the industry's been in my opinion, upside down when it comes to hyperpigmentation, where you're not even testing on the skin where it's most difficult to treat the issue that you're looking into. So if you're not doing that, how are you saying that your formula is going to be a formula that works for all skin? And hyperpigmentation is more visible on darker skin types, which is part of the reason it's harder to treat. You have to start there. And that's something that we decided very early on in the brand. There were two things that really fundamentally shaped our sort of core beliefs at Sable. One being that we needed to, if we were gonna be a brand for black skin, which I wanted to be able to solve the issues that I was facing as a young woman, we were gonna start with black skin. We were gonna look at the needs of melanin rich skin and draft the formula from there. And then the second being that we were gonna test on black skin, right? Like we can say that we're doing one thing and then not do it like that. Okay, around. We were also going to look at hyperpigmentation holistically. And I love that you said hyperpigmentation is still so under understood. Yeah, it is. I mean, under understood, under researched. I mean, all of it. Under researched. Because it really is. And I found that the way that brands were talking about hyperpigmentation wasn't lining up with the research that we were putting into the brand. Hyperpigmentation is a 360 problem. You can't just treat it once it's on the surface of the skin. You need to look at prevention when you're tackling hyperpigmentation. You need to look at different pathways of hyperpigmentation. You need to include ingredients like tyrosinase inhibitors, exfoliating ingredients, but also, you know, ingredients that are going to prevent inflammation. And inflammation is the root of all evil when it comes to hyperpigmentation. So there is real strength in using antioxidant-led formulas and leaving out sensitizing ingredients and inflammatory triggers. So we wanted to be able to create a range that really, for me, filled an empty space in what I was seeing in the market. I found most ranges and brands would make a dark spot serum if people might get really excited about and actually could have some good clinical backing. But then the rest of the range of the brand would pre-trigger the inflammation, which is then forced you to use that. And dark spot serum again. And I was like, I want to get out of this cyclical trap. This roundabout way of doing things is not going to work for me, and it wasn't working for me. And I found that the more that I was doing, the more I was irritating my skin and not being mindful of some of the ingredients that were causing that irritation, because I just feel like no one was really talking about that in a meaningful way. In fact, all the ingredients that people are scared about are actually fine, depending on how you use them. Formulas like the fear mongering is happening around the wrong ingredients. That's so true. Oh my God, yes. I feel like you talk better about this than a lot of people that I've had on that are supposed to be talking about this like this. Like I hate to say that, but it's true. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, exactly what you said, and you know, I'm going to plug this in here, longevity skincare. That's why I stand behind longevity skincare. And people hate on me for that, but I'm like, guys, we have been promoting the use of 20% AHAs for like 20 years, okay? So you're getting mad about barrier repair. I'm sorry, it doesn't register. You know, like I'm not getting it. What I was doing, I felt victim to that. I was like short-term gain, short-term gain, short-term gain for long-term devastation, really. Like, you know, you can beat something with a stick too hard. And then what do you have? You don't need a sledgehammer sometimes, you know? It's like, where's the fine tuning? Where is the thoughtfulness behind the formulas? But what that's led to is, I think, this total miseducation, total misconceptions around particular ingredients. And I think to an extent, something that's quite dangerous for young skin. And you know, it kind of goes back, even though the education is there, into the time where we didn't have as much education, where we were using ingredients that were doing too much to our skin. So it's so funny. Sometimes the more we know, and there's single ingredient formulations, that we're going to go and buy from brands who have made all of these amazing actives accessible to communities, and then use that knowledge to then damage our skin in the same way we were doing before we had the knowledge. It's the biggest, like, oxymoronic thing. Like, I feel like as intelligent beings, we could have done in this space. Like, it just, it doesn't, and it's not that we don't know, right? It's more of like, I almost feel like we get tempted. Like, okay, yes, it's out here, the 20% vitamin C that's going to brighten. And this is a whole different topic. I want to go down this rabbit hole with you, by the way, with this whole brightening story and narrative. But no, but that's the idea, right? It's like, you don't need 20% of anything. Like, your skin is literally going to not only reject it, but it's going to react to it. And it's going to be like, what are you doing to me? You're killing me, you know? Like, that's what I get. And you have to raise your hand. I can't use vitamin C, and I can't use niacinamide. And I feel so like, oh, you can't. You're probably just using too much, which too much of a thing is going to hurt you more than it is going to help you. So you're... Honestly, it breaks my heart when I hear that about niacinamide. Like, I have such a love relationship with niacinamide. Niacinamide is one of the best ingredients in skincare. And people are like, I can't use it. I'm like, I'm sad. I'm sad. I think, I totally agree with you. My heart bleeds when I hear someone say that. So I'm like, niacinamide is amazing. But then I actually think what that's also done is maybe cause this... I think we're seeing maybe the pendulum swing back now with K-Beauty, but for a while, there was this rise of the Yuka app and the fear mongering ingredients. That kind of pushed people to think, okay, so I'm just going to use a natural skincare brand then, right? Or what they perceived was a natural skincare brand or what was being marketed and sold to them. And it kind of gave science a bad name, in my opinion. When we launched Sable, I always wanted to incorporate these amazing botanicals. Some of the most powerful antioxidants on this planet come from the African continent because the climates are so harsh. So the ingredients have to be like extra resilient to be able to survive some of those climates. You have things like African Resurrection Plant and BalBab. But I don't want to underserve them by formulating them by themselves. You can boost the efficacy of an ingredient when you combine it with science. Botanicals and science should go together. And it's interesting, because I was writing about this recently where I think there's a particular conception when it comes to African ingredients that they need to stay in their rawest, truest form. Or they are somewhat adulterated in the fact that we've blended them into ingredients. But when you look at like a French botanical or like a seek help, you almost picture that and go, oh, that natural ingredient needs to be elevated with science. Because it should be elevated with science. And it goes so eloquently into formulas. But you know what? So does gussell. So does turmeric. A lot of these botanicals can do some of that heavy lifting. And I think people forget that ingredients in a formula are together in a formula so that they are complementary. Like vitamin C, E, frulic acid is like really easy for people to understand for that reason. You take vitamin C, you kind of cushion it with the vitamin E, and then you boost the efficacy with the frulic acid. And that's why that's become like this little holy grail. You do the exact same thing when you're formulating, right? You think what's going to help cushion this active, what's going to boost its efficacy, and what's going to make it a fully rounded and fully thoughtful formulation for the person that's using it. And I think somewhere along the way with single ingredient formulations, like a vitamin C serum and this, and we kind of forgot that. The chemists know what they're doing. That's right. Yeah, and they know. And also more importantly, it's like I love what you said, because this really speaks to the hidden narrative that's always going on in beauty, right? Where you were talking about the ingredient sourcing component of it. I could not jive with that more than I do, because I really get it. Being Indian myself, watching Ayurveda growing up, you know what I mean? Like we have so many beautiful ingredients that come out of Africa, that come out of South Asia, and you take them for granted. We as a society take them for granted. We don't, one, we don't know how to use them. I'll be real. Like I've seen so many ingredients just get wasted. I'm like, you don't even know. Why are you putting this in there at 0.0001%? This could be like a holy grail anti-inflammatory ingredient for you, and we don't do that. But then also, what really bothers me is that we lose the culture in that. And we can't do that. We can't do that. Because going back to what you were talking about, I'll tell you, my mother's the same way what you were describing with your mom, where it's like my mom's always had great skin, and I've always been like, what are you doing? And she did really nothing. But one thing she was very adamant about was, similarly, she knew her spices, and she knew her herbs really well, and she knew when to use what, right? And what to put in a bath. And it's like that knowledge comes from a lot of culture that's been passed down. And I think if we keep bearing that, and we keep overlooking it, and not recognizing where ingredients come from, like not just sourcing, but like, what is their root? Why did they matter in those cultures? That's when you get to learn more, you know? And science expands from that. I mean, look at the entirety of the scientific community and where all of our innovations have come from. They've come from observation. And for some reason, in skincare and skin science, we've said, we've observed everything, we know everything, we're just gonna keep combining the same things over and over again. It's like, guys, I promise you, there's a whole world out there. So, yeah. Honestly, that is just, you just put that in the most beautiful, eloquent way. And I think you're so right about preserving that culture. And that was actually something that I think I also clocked really early on in the brand, was the ingredients that I was wanting to champion and use, that I'd seen in my childhood growing up felt slightly appropriated in the sense that they would be a buzzy, trendy ingredient in one context, like at a grocery store like an Erwan or a Whole Foods, but they would not be attributed to the cultures or customs or traditions or heritage that they had behind them, let alone the women who are farming them. Because nine times a year, then it is a woman who's farmed that ingredient. And that's why, to your point, like I appreciate that you brought up the fact that we care very much about our supply chain, just as much as we care about the formulation, because I think we hear a lot of brands say, they're sustainable and it's a buzzy word, even though I think it should really be the clean plate now of all brands. Like we shouldn't have to hear brands say that anymore. Every brand should be doing its best to fulfill that. But I think a lot of brands tend to just look at packaging or the box that it's come in, or it's so unholistic of the whole picture. It's not a realistic look. If you're not talking about your supply chain, you do not have a sustainable brand. Because if we are not making the planet more sustainable for people, why are we even doing it in the first place? So we make sure our ingredients, our raw materials, our African ingredients are farmed on the continent by the farmers that we want to support, that we can meet in person, business person to business person, have that trade, that transparency, and that responsibility in our supply chain to make sure that they are not underpaid, that there is no child labor, that there are no dangerous working conditions for the people who are farming the ingredients for the products that are sitting on 99% of our, you know, bathroom shelves. So that was something that we just made a decision early on. We were never going to bring any African ingredient or any raw material into the formulation unless we knew where it was coming from. And that was hard to do. Because I know you know, and you have background of this, you hear a lot of noses before you hear yeses, you know? And it comes with a lot. It comes with, okay, do we have that ingredient on the European portal? Do we have all the information around that ingredient? Can we make sure that it's safe to use? Can we help fill out the safety sheets with those farmers? Can they even fill out the DHL slips to get it from port to port? You know, it comes with a lot of baggage. It's not the easiest for a startup. I do think it should be the other way around. I think the big beauty conglomerates should be making it easier. I agree, yeah. They shouldn't be paving the road, but instead they're out here making billions of dollars on God knows what. No, I mean, no, you bring up such an important point. And here's the thing, like, you know what really bothers me? And I know I've seen this conversation, like it's been going on for a few years about the overall fairness, right? Of like the whole sourcing conversation. And I get it, but here's what I really don't understand. I want you to speak to this as a celebrity brand get a lot of hate about things that we never talk about with any other brand. And I'm not sitting here saying every celebrity brand is amazing and whatever, you know? But I do think that this conversation needs to be opened up because there are celebrities like yourself, you know? That you really care and you're not trying to cut corners and you're not trying to like BS anybody. And so I would love for you to speak on this a little bit because I think consumers genuinely don't get to hear that perspective enough where it's like understanding that, you know? Like what does it take knowing that you have this platform, knowing that you have the space that you have? I get it, okay? We've definitely, and I've gone through sort of all of the stages of this almost, you know? When we launched this brand, I genuinely thought we were launching into a white space that we weren't gonna be seen to be sort of flooding the market with an overly saturated market with just another product. And then we launched when Elephant in the Room, every celebrity was like, oh, I'm gonna launch a beauty brand. And we got dumped into this extremely over saturated category of celebrity brands where two people's credit, I understand the anger, I understand the outcry because there are people who have done the rest of us paid to service, being a face of a name, a white labeled product, not knowing enough about your brand, trying to get a quick paycheck and exit in five years, you know, and not putting enough care into it. But like you said, there are people who are on the other end of that spectrum who have put that care in, who do care about their brand, who have made the products because like anyone, they had an idea to create something that they felt inspired to create and everyone should be able to do that. Brands from conglomerates are no different. We should be judging every brand the same way. Is this brand authentic to the story that it's trying to tell? Is this brand safe for my skin? Has this brand been made with thoughtful formulations? So just because a celebrity is behind it, like you said, should not be part of that equation, but unfortunately it has gotten a bad rep. So when we started the brand and saw that, we made a decision to actually kind of remove Idris from the brand and also not only because of the sort of backlash from celebrity brands, but a little bit because we would go and speak to editors and journalists and the first question would be like, oh my gosh, Idris, what did you drink for coffee this morning? And like, what are you, like what are you hot? And like it became about everything except the formula. Yeah. And I was like, hold on a second. We started this brand for a very, very different reason than, you know, the vanity case of my very beautiful husband. Who didn't mean much, you know, to look the way he does. But, you know, it's a truth in this world. And I think I always want customers to scrutinize a product that they're purchasing. Your consumer dollar is the most powerful thing that you do. You know, your spending power is so, so, so important. So I think people should do that flat across the brands, but I think you should judge brands independently for who they are and do a little bit of research behind that brand. I think, luckily now, you know, we kind of have that research happening in real time. You have people genuinely posting about brands and their experience with that brand, and then you can look up a brand and make a judgment for yourself. You can get a sample, you can try it out, you can look at the brand's website, but don't let the idea of a celebrity brand necessarily scare you away. In my opinion, look at each brand on their own merit. I love that. And I couldn't agree with you more. I think that, yeah, that's like, that's one of the biggest questions that you answered it. It was like, you know, did you get the questions that were completely irrelevant to the actual skincare brand? Because I'm sure I just was like, I don't know why you care about my coffee. I mean, I've made a, you know, we've made this beautiful brand here, but yeah, I mean, I always hate that though, you know, like maybe because I'm just a skincare nerd and maybe that's why I hate it, but I've been the opposite, I think, in the world of consumers, right? Look at a celebrity brand and I'm like, they must have felt something, you know, because you guys have like so much exposure to like, I mean, you're constantly under the limelight. Your skin is being worked on, you know, in the sense of like, you're wearing makeup, you're changing a lot, like you're traveling continuously. There are so many concerns, I feel like would come up if you have lived that kind of lifestyle. So coming from that perspective, I think there is a lot that's contributed and no one talks about that, you know, it's always just like the other side of it. I totally agree with that. I think Idris in particular has a very good experience of products being put on his skin as an actor. He knows what irritates his skin and what doesn't, right? And he brings a level of knowledge and he brought a level of knowledge to the brand that was really helpful in a lot of the decisions early on. But I also think, you know, for myself, I'm not, I don't even consider myself the celebrity in this relationship, but I had to build a level of authority that I felt comfortable enough to speak about these products. I am an esthetician now and I love giving facials and learning about skin and accumulating as much knowledge as I can because I understand how that benefits the business. And it allows me to be able to sit in NPD conversations with a wholly new lens and to be able to speak to skin and black skin in a way that I wouldn't have been able to six, seven years ago. So I think it needs a bit of a balance because, yes, you can have world experience and you can have eyes on things that maybe people wouldn't have had the opportunity to have in the case that you're making with celebrities. But also, I think you need to be able to equip yourself with the knowledge and the tools to make sure that you are doing the job to the best of your ability, just like you would any other job. So don't think that you can start a brand and not know what you're talking about because the only way your brand will be the best brand it can be is if you do. Absolutely. Now, I really resonate with that because you're right, because people are going to ask you questions, especially now. I think consumers are so, like, well acquainted with ingredients and with efficacy and all those things. So I can imagine you guys probably get a ton of questions. You know, I think a lot of brands are getting a lot more questions now. So I actually always wonder that like the brands are brands inundated with people who are chat GPT, all of their skin care concerns and then judging their brands on. I don't know why we even allowed for chat GPT to have access to. I mean, I say that about a lot though, right? Like I feel like no, there are legitimate. We get people like chiming into our podcast and they're like, well, chat GPT told me and I'm like, I'm just not even I'm not even going to pass this on to the brand because I feel like they're getting this as is. But no, I agree. Also, another thing that really bothers me is that now the ingredients like we were talking about ingredients before now the ingredients are evolving. Like there's no way chat GPT can figure that out guys, like just FYI for anyone listening. Like there's no way like to talk about like how molecules interact and all of that, you know, like with AI. Right. So even if it does catch up, I think people should always be wary of one source. I mean, it's like we forget at least in our generation when we were younger, you had to find multiple sources for the work that you were doing. In fact, if you had to go to the library, you couldn't rely on one book for your whole thesis, right? You had to listen to different opinions. You had to read different things. You had to find multiple sources just to be able to defend your thought when you had it. Kind of let go of that now. We see one answer on Google and we go, right, that must be the answer without scrutinizing that. And I think people are becoming more wary of that. Like, you know, I think you hear it with the news all the time. People don't just trust because of all of the AI slopp that's happening. You don't look at something and go, oh, right, that must have happened today. We kind of now are maybe the benefit of AI is that we are building a little bit of mistrust and we've kind of gone back on ourselves and gone, I should double check that. Right. No, I completely agree. And I, you know, I want to actually shift gears a little bit because I think this is a really important conversation that's recently came up, like, you know, it came up in our own DMs, you know, for skin anarchy. And it's always difficult for me to answer these questions. But I'd love to get your take on this. Women of color, well, people of color in general that are approaching skin care often say, well, I'm the last person on like a dermatologist, like, TikTok, you know, comment section or whatever that gets an answer to my questions, you know, whether it's something like ingrown hairs or we were talking about hyperpigmentation, acne. And there I'm always getting these questions, Sabrina, like it's crazy. Like people are like, like, you know, actually, like literally I keep asking these questions on everybody's feed and no one answers. And I'm like, that's a problem because is it, is it that we don't know? Or is it that we just don't want to like put ourselves, you know what I mean? Under fire if we answer incorrectly because skin of color is so hard to treat, you know, harder in the sense of like, if we just don't know enough, I mean, what's your take on it? What's your opinion around like why consumers get overlooked so much? My instinct here is that you've hit the needle on the head is that I think people are intimidated by melanin rich skin. And I think that they're way more unlikely to answer something that they think is going to be scrutinized and picked apart, especially when also melanin rich skin isn't even just in one bucket. You know, there's so there's so many different complex like what is for me is not for my younger sister who who's like maybe one shade darker than I am. Like, you know, there's there's such a complexity to it. So to be able to even then try and group that into one answer is so much more difficult. But I think that again speaks to why the beauty industry probably has been historically formulated the way that it is, is because it is easier to treat skin with less melanin in it, right? So you're going to kind of take the easiest route out. But history shows time and time again, what is better for the margins will always improve the center, you know, and that's the same idea with melanin rich skin or melanin inclusive skincare is you formulate for skin that's hardest to treat, which means everybody else gets to benefit off that. So I think it's in people's best interests. It's in dermatologists, best interests, estheticians, best interests to understand skin of color, because it is only going to help you further treat everybody else. You will understand issues like hyperpigmentation in a much more nuanced way when you are looking at all the, for instance, different pathways to hyperpigmentation or you were looking at how formulas can holistically treat an issue like you just become a more, in my opinion, educated person. So I don't think people should fear questions like that. And unfortunately, we live in a society where answers are scrutinized and probably to some extent, dermatologists, estheticians, people online are worried about the backlash that they might get. But I think we need to be able to give each other a safe space to have these conversations, whether or not you are an expert. If you get something wrong, guess what? You can just educate yourself and get it right the next time. So it is a tricky situation. I totally understand that. But the wrong thing to do is to shy away from it. The right thing to do is educate yourself and equip yourself with the tool so that nobody feels like they are unheard. Because that is the worst feeling. I can't imagine trying to reach out just for some information and being ghosted every time you're like that. That's the worst. I mean, that's why I asked you because I was like, literally, like we get this like at least once a week, we're getting at least like two to five of these questions. And I'm like, this must be a massive problem because why would we, a podcast, be getting it? You know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, like what it also brings up for me is like we, I don't know, I feel like for so long, like we use skin of color as like a token to like do something. And then we're like, OK, well, that was nice. But now we're going to move on to like basically doing the same thing again, just like, you know, and it's like we got to break that cycle. Like let's stop doing that and let's stay here for a bit because there's so much to unpack and there's so much that's not answered. Like, for example, I'll tell you, you know, in lasers, like people who are starting to talk about lasers and how you can't do the same thing for skin of color and everybody was freaking like, oh my God, I didn't know that. You know, and now I'm going to think about it when I go to my dermatologist. Well, we stayed on that topic for a hot five minutes. And like now it's like. Now we're back to the, you know, like the old stories. I 100% agree with that. It's like, what? Why do we do that? I don't know. It's like our attention spans are so small because there's so much happening. That is an extremely important question. And actually there were probably so many estheticians or people, practitioners and who are using lasers to remove hair who actually don't even know how to do that for black skin. Exactly. I actually hear from my friends, you know, my black women in my circle who won't even go to an esthetician who isn't black if it involves a laser, because the fear there is so now deep seated that people haven't educated themselves. There should be an industry standard in the same way that all hair stylists, in my opinion, should know how to treat all and take care and protect all hair textures. You know, across the board for skin, if you are looking at skin, you should be educated on all skin. And that just needs to be the golden standard because there shouldn't be an issue of like, oh, I'm going to I can't even use that because I'm this or I can't. And it's funny because I was just recently in Korea and I went to this amazing clinic and I was remember thinking when I initially was going, are they going to understand my skin? Are they going to want to treat my skin? You know, in the end, I just ended up trying regerin. But I was so happily pleased that the clinic that I went to, the doctor was not intimidated, was so happy and open to have the conversations, understood my skin and we could speak on a level that, you know, that he was he was super confident in answering. And that's just a sign of a good doctor. Absolutely. I shouldn't be surprised. Yeah, no, but I mean, it is surprising in our world, though, but you're absolutely right. And that's amazing, though, to hear that about Korea, because I've been very hesitant myself and like, I'm a little scared. I don't want to. I'll show you the clinic that I went to. I was really happily surprised. But the fact that I was surprised is the problem. Yeah, no, I mean, it speaks volumes, honestly. And like another thing is also just understanding that, like, you know, it's OK to ask, like, I think a lot of people, like, consumers don't ask. Like, I know I don't like, I'll go to the doctor. Sometimes I'm like, I'm not fully confident that you know what you're doing with my specific concern, but I'm just going to shut my mouth. And I've had that, like, even like in my training, in my medical training, like even they told us, right, like they used to walk us through these like simulations and stuff. They're like, you have to be very empathetic to your patients. And like, you know, like, I get it. But like, if you don't ask us, you know, like, we don't know how to be empathetic. Yeah, there is a lot of tiptoeing around the law of issues that just need to be at the forefront, especially around what we're talking about and treating melanin rich skin, because it should be the center for treating all skin because of how difficult it can be to treat some issues on black skin. Why not start there? Yeah, why not start with what's hardest and everything else will get easier for you. That's right. No, so what was your favorite product to formulate in the line? Oh, that's such a fun one. It's funny because I always feel like a bad parent trying to pick a favorite child. I was just going to say, it's like asking a mother about, like, which finger is your favorite? Like, I want to say it's too. Can I pick two? Absolutely. There too. So one is definitely the Mringa lip self. And I know that that feels like just an acquisition tool for a lot of brands and it's just like a throwaway product. But for us, it was so thoughtfully curated because I was suffering from hyperpigmentation on my lips and I had never seen a product talk about that or speak to that concern in the way that we wanted to speak to. But also I found that a lot of lip products were causing dryness from the fragrances or the act like something like a peppermint that I didn't really I didn't know what I was reacting to. So I just I had a really, really good time learning about and benchmarking different products and understanding why they were irritating my lips and then being able to try and create something different. But then I also got really excited when we were doing the ochre serum because I knew that I wanted to create a hyperpigmentation serum that put everyone else to rest. I was like, there is no way knowing what we know that we can't outperform our competitors. Lo and behold, our clinicals came back and we did. Like I don't know many hyperpigmentation serums that have 120 percent reduction in visible hyperpigmentation in just four weeks. And the reason to our credit, I think it became sort of like the thesis of all of the education that we had learned when we started the brand. We knew we wanted to incorporate the hyperprevent system. So we looked at hyperpigmentation 360. We knew we wanted to incorporate amazing African botanicals and anti-inflammatory ingredients and, you know, the amazing anti-oxidants we were talking about. But we knew that we also wanted to incorporate a retinoid. And we found something called Simmer New HPR and you probably know about HPR retinoids. And when you're putting them in a formulation that looks at melanin rich skin first, where you're not irritating the skin, I mean, it's you can use it twice a day or ochre serum. I just feel the benefits you're getting from that serum on the long term, the reduction of redness that we saw on the clinicals, that all comes from a thoughtful formulation around if we're going to make this an extremely powerful product, how do we cushion it in a way that it is great for still for sensitive skin? And that's really, really, really fun to learn about. And also just to be able to talk about ochre, like in care ingredients, something that is so well known in so many cultures, but has never really been used in a way that it deserves to. Like I think ochre should be a skincare hero. You know, it's the legia peptides. It can, you know, decrease the mechanical function in the muscle and skin over time. So it kind of acts like this sort of natural botox type thing, although I know people hate talking about it that way, but it's just an amazing ingredient. And it's an amazing antioxidant. So I just got really excited to be able to incorporate the culture, the science, the efficacy, all in one thing. And MPD is probably the funnest part of the business for all founders, because it feels like creative with like all the skills you're learning with like the business side of it. When you start looking at the cogs and, you know, and then you start getting into the packaging and the supply chain, like it's just an MPD is so, so, so much fun. So I think those two have been my favorite for those reasons. But I mean, the whole range has really inspired me. I feel like I benchmarked probably more than I should. I try everything once. I know if a brand puts something out, I'm like, hmm, what does it smell like? What does it feel like? What is it? Curiosity. I've got, I've got to try it. So for me, it's this self competitiveness that I have that I'm like, I need to out perform that product. But that's awesome, though. I like that. I mean, that's healthy in my opinion. And I feel like it's going to need that right now. By the way, I love both of those products. So I'm glad you shouted those out because I've been testing your line and I love it. And honestly, the the it's not just another lip product. I want to say that to our listeners because it doesn't feel like lip glosses and me are not friends. Like I can't with most lip glosses just irritate my my lips. They start peeling. And I struggle because I'm like, I can't ever find anything that just sits on my lips and doesn't bother it. So this has been definitely a product for me as well, that I've absolutely been loving it. So. And that's why we invested in the clinical. You don't see a lot of clinical studies for a lip product. So you might see panel testing, but we wanted to we really felt like we were on to something that was that was a great product and a great idea. And, you know, we see that amazing 120 percent increase in 127 percent increase in moisture in just four hours. Like we knew we had to do that clinical testing because we felt like, wait, we've done something really good. We're excited about it. So it's not just another lip product. It was always meant to outperform, to outlast, to you shouldn't have to reapply unless you eat or drink or lick your lips, you know, it should be able to last. And I hope that you've seen that with the product and just to have something in the industry that, you know, in such an oversaturated category now that feels like it can kind of stand out. I hope inspires other brands to not feel like, oh, everyone's doing lip. We're just going to do lip. No, how are you going to differentiate your products from everything else that's coming out? And I do see a couple of brands do that. The brands that I admire are always pushing boundaries on the categories that they're coming into. And that's the brand that I always want us to be disabled. If we're going to put something out like I'd love to put out an eye cream. I'm not putting an eye cream out until I am wholly satisfied that there is a fundamental USB to that product that allows it to outperform other eye creams. Because to me, it's also such a boring category. It is, but it can be amazing, though. I'm glad you said that. I mean, I feel like because you brought up okra early. I mean, the okra is brilliant that you actually made that a hero ingredient because you're right. And I feel like that's exactly the kind of take you need to create a great eye cream because we don't know anything about the eye area. Let's be real, you know, from the skin science perspective. I had to unlearn a lot of things in, you know, a stitching course about like I always thought like if it was overly inclusive, it was going to cause milia, for instance, or, you know, like there's so there's actually so much marketing knowledge that we have in eye creams where there's less scientific knowledge that we have. Because they don't know anything. I'm being so honest. Can I ask you something? I know you're kidding me, but I have become so invested in the world of peptides and injectable peptides and the GHKC use of this world and where that field is going. And I'm so determined to hear your thoughts on because I know I've actually watched segments that you've done around peptides and copper peptides and how that it works on skin. But do you think that people will just be injecting skin care in the near future? Yeah, I think they're already doing it and it scares the living bejesus out of me. Like, yeah, because I honestly, and I'll tell you what, I have spent years in wound healing research and like my love of my life as research. So like, I know this field very, very well at this point. And I can tell you every major discovery that we're seeing in regenerative medicine come out right now comes from wound healing. And that's the case with GHK copper, for example. Like our body, like in a wound, up regulates it 10 times its normal amount. But that's the body literally screaming out for help. So like one of my biggest, like I worry for consumers. So I'm like, we don't realize that when we inject ourselves, we're injecting it into the physiology that's normal and stable. Like, you know what I mean? Like our body is stable. It's not asking for that much help. So when you bombard it, the risk of like immunogenicity and like having a really bad like reaction, like that is just, it goes up astronomically. So I agree with you. I think we're going to be injecting our skincare. Do I think we should? Absolutely not. Does it make you excited about the possibilities there? Because I think what will happen is we probably will go too far. And then there will be a balance that we found that works because you're concerned, so wholly valid because I'm looking at them and I don't even like needles. So I'm like scared of anything that I have to. But I also see I have friends who have seen amazing results. And, you know, and some of this, like, I mean, even like the tanning peptides and all this amazing stuff. I don't doubt it, right? Like I don't. So I don't sit and doubt it because obviously science is science. Like if you can prove it, you know, it's there. But my thing is like exactly what I feel like it's going to get bad before it gets good and I'm scared of it getting bad and I'm scared of like things like the crisis. Yeah. Like, you know, like. Scary. Yeah. I mean, the real, I mean, think about what happened with fillers though. You know what I mean? Like when everybody started getting fillers and then you had like serious, like adverse reactions, people were getting necrosis on their nose and like it was just terrible. And then we finally as industry were like, reel it back, reel it back, you know, like just. How do we get that bad before we then regulate it? Yeah, that's why I think we're kind of like that as humans with everything. We got to break it first. We got to break it first. You know, like maybe now people will listen to this conversation and we're going to be such movers and shakers that they're going to go, we can't let it get bad. We'll be the two advocates like. I think I. But don't do it. We were here with you, but not really. Back there, but. You never know. But I love that you're worried about. And I look forward to seeing you make more content about that, because I think people like yourself are so important to the industry who have the background and the education to be able to kind of really tell us how it is because there's so many, unfortunately, people out there who are speaking on subjects that they just don't know enough about and spreading misinformation. And I worry about that. Like a young 16 year old me, I was actually better off, probably. With how frustrated I felt. I actually worry more about a 16 year old girl now trying to understand her skin and treat her skin. It's a scary world. Like I'm not a mother, but if I had a daughter and she was in that age, like I would be scared for her life every day. Be just because like there's just so much and so many people. I mean, obviously free speech is the best thing in the world, but it's like when you use your free speech to just go on a tangent about things you know nothing about and then young people are listening, you know what I mean? And they're doing things that are going to be incredibly harmful, you know, in the long term, it scares it scares me to death. Like it's very, very scary. So especially when you look at, you know, generations like Jen Alpha, who are buying skincare when they're 11 years old. It takes, I think also parents having to educate themselves, not just picking up whatever your your young preteen sees on a counter and just to, you know, because everybody else at school is doing it. And that hopefully, like we said, when things get really bad, people start to make fixes and maybe it's gone as bad as it can get. Maybe that's me being all. I hope it gets it's going to go better from here on out, you know, and I felt I will say this and because just we're having a conversation, I will say, I felt really bad for some of the brands that got a bad reputation because they had colorful packaging. Like I did feel bad for them. Like I'll be real because they didn't make colorful packaging because they were trying to sell to like babies. You know what I mean? They just thought it was a fun color and and I feel bad. Part of me does feel bad about that. You know, it's like I feel like we just attacked the wrong people for that. But I do think those same brands have responsibility to make those statements and to make make that clear and to not go, oh, we didn't really do that, but we're just going to write it out. Yeah, no, I do agree with that. Absolutely. No, 100 percent. But, you know, I'm a huge fan of stable labs, Serena. I think what you're doing is awesome. And I want to close with just some words of wisdom from you for the young female entrepreneurs out there that want to start their thing. And, you know, they might be like on that fence of like, should I do it? Should I not do it? Anything that you can share. You should absolutely do it. If I give you one piece of advice, it would be to ask everyone you know, you see in your network, all the questions that you have, because there is no bad question when you are trying to get into business. In fact, I have probably gained the more knowledge than any other source from the people around me. That's how you learn conversation, questions. We need to be able to ask each other to leverage our networks, to send the DM to someone you think may never respond. You know what? They may respond. That happened to me really early on in this brand journey, is I had two amazing women, business women, Charlotte Tilbury and Barbara Sturm, who, you know, I'm like, whatever you think about their brands, they are undeniable business women who spoke to me and gave me such critical advice early on. And I would never have known that they would have done that if I didn't just try. So send a DM, try it, may work out in your favor. I love that. I really love that. Well, thank you so much. This has been such an honor. And I am such a fan of what you're creating. And I can't wait to watch Sable Labs like grow and expand and all the beautiful things that are to come. I can't wait to meet you in person one day. Yes, please. Tell me. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much.