The Real Story Behind The Wolf of Wall Street: Nadine Macaluso on Abuse and Recovery

Welcome to Obsessed, where Mika, Tia and I challenge the thoughts that limit you, where we provide the tools for transformation, be prepared to be swept away into the raw power of obsession, unlocking secrets and stories behind the insatiable hunger for growth and change. This is more than just a podcast, this is your story. It is a manifesto for those who refuse to settle, who dare to dream and who are relentless in the pursuit of living a great life. Get obsessed with your life. Feeling tired, feeling overwhelmed, feeling that you're not living your best life? We start the show, I want to just tell you about Orlo Nutrition, that's O-R-L-O nutrition. I've got four kids, a job, a business, a husband, two dogs, and I was lacking energy. Let's be clear. I was lacking energy until I started taking these little beautiful LG capsules that changed the way my brain functioned. I got clarity, I started feeling more energy. Side effect, little side effect, my skin started looking better. I felt more vibrant. My husband told me, what have you been doing, Julie? You seem a little different. It's all about Orlo Nutrition. Guys, get obsessed with Orlo Nutrition. I want you to check them out. That's O-R-L-O nutrition.com. Game changer. Now on with the show, get obsessed. I need you guys right now to run like hell and get all your friends to be right here with Dr. Nadine McElusa. She is beyond amazing. You might recognize the name. I'm not sure you might recognize the name Nadine Belfort. That's a little more recognizable, but whatever it is, she is owning her own life now. She is teaching other people to break away from those trauma bonds that have that poison us as human being. She's amazing. The movie, The Wolf of Wall Street was based on Nadine's life with her husband, Jordan Belfort. I guess, first of all, I want to say, how do you build a brand and how do you get out of that whole lifestyle of being that wife to Jordan Belfort, The Wolf of Wall Street, and become a doctor and start saving people's lives and telling them to run like hell? By the way, her book is called Run Like Hell. You guys have to check it out. It's amazing. Thanks, Dr. Nae, for being here. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been a warm journey crawling out of that relationship. Yeah, but it's possible. Wow. That book, that, well, his book, he wrote that while he was in prison. Correct. And he served 22 months and then it turned into a movie. I just want to know Margot Robbie, who portrayed you on The Wolf of Wall Street. She was perfect for you. Did she contact you? I had to like prep for the role. She's portraying you. Did she contact you ahead of time? Yeah. What happened was that, as you mentioned, so it was a book first, right? Then it became a movie. And they said, okay, Warren Sposacy's office actually called me and said, finally, we're making this movie. And I said, it's about time you called me. You're going to make a movie about my auntie. And so they said to me, we have this young woman who's going to play you and we'd like for her to get your accent. So I was like, oh my God, my accent. That seems so string. I've been trying to get rid of this accent my whole life. So I said, yeah, I'm taking my daughter to college and I will meet her and I got to meet her. Nice. So she got a chance to meet you and she wanted to nail your amazing accent. I like your accent. I like your Brooklyn accent. So other than your accent, was there anything else she did to really portray you as you really were at that time, 22 years old, 22, all those years that you were married to Jordan? Does she portray you? Well, listen, they taped me for about two to three hours and then we took her to dinner. So I don't know how much she could have really understood about me in that short amount of time, but we did have a very important conversation where I said to her, because she was feeling very afraid of getting naked and the naked that we knew and all those sexual scenes. And she was really telling me about that. And I said, listen, that fear they feel right now speaking truth to power. That's what I felt through my whole marriage. So if you can embody that feeling throughout the movie, you'll be really imbuing a sense of how I felt. That's incredible advice to give. I can imagine that having a movie made about a portion of your life can be very intimidating. And you're also in this delicate healing process, right? Like you weren't who you are today sitting in front of us. Like how did this movie impact your healing, getting out of this trauma bond with Jordan? Yes. So the movie happened. So Jordan wrote the book, right, when I went back to school to get my master's at 39. So luckily I was like, first I've been in therapy for 25 years. So that's why I wanted to be a therapist because therapy had saved me. And then by the time the movie was about to come out, I was finishing my doctorate. And so I had so many, of course, mixed feelings about it. I like to say that at first I have like my mad Lucia moments where I let my let my felt feel all my feelings and throw the ball and get mad and all that. And but they therapy a lot. And actually during that time, when the movie was coming to fruition, I was actually in a lot of dream therapy. And I did a lot of dream therapy with my therapist around the movie that I think really helped because of course it is a big deal. Like I already lived through something that's such a great tragedy and was so traumatizing. And here I am thinking, oh, my God, I've healed this and I'm on with it. And now it's like back to visit. Right. So the work never ends. And I did do that to get through it. And then I've spoken about this a lot in that one day I just sent to myself, Nadine, you have to surrender. This is bigger than you. You're not going to fight how about like they're going to make this movie, whether you like it or not. So you could go in kicking and screaming or you can surrender. And I offer that to people because in surrendering, you're really releasing control and allowing whatever's supposed to emerge, which I had no idea all this was going to emerge. I was going to write this book and all this. But that was my process. And I guess it worked. I love that, Dr. Ne and there's you are so smart. The thing I always think about and the whole movie has just taken on a role of its own and you've embraced it as I don't say as your brand, but. From where you were back, I guess it was the eight nineties. Yeah. You are now a gorgeous model, gorgeous. And you're still like really like beyond beautiful, but taking that to a new level by being one smart, badass, just like therapist and giving all the info you give online and with your clients. What is that evolution like? Because so many people get caught up in being that one person. Wolf of Wall Street. Come on. That's a juggernaut. It's hard to walk away from or remove yourself from and you've seamlessly brought that into your brand. How is that something in terms of trauma? Like you're, you don't have a trauma bond with the actual movie, the Wolf of Wall Street, but I don't know. I'd love to hear. I wish I could say I had some great grand scheme. I just, as a 56 year old woman, I've just realized that that life happens as it happened when the movie came out. I didn't speak about it. I had nothing to say. I had absolutely nothing to say. And I wasn't just going to have a response to it because it came out, because then I'm still trauma bonded with Jordan, right? Then what he's doing is creating my action. So I didn't want anything to say about it. And I let it go. And then when dropping was I was doing my practice still evolving as a person. And I saw all these beautiful kinds more amazing women coming into my room. Trauma bonds, of course, have leaked controlled, getting betrayed by the partners, emotionally verbally abused. And I was like, we have a problem. We have a problem. We are not in the 1950s. Why is this still happened? And so the track and Zipik that I am, I went back to the research to discover what really was happening. And then ironically, and again, I wish I was this well thought out. I have this vehicle, the Wolf of Wall Street, which is the very thing that I'm trying to break all this misogyny and abuse of women as the vehicle to ride my message. And when I don't use my name in the Wolf of Wall Street for a reason, because I don't have any creative power. It's not my, I didn't make any money and it's not my narrative. And Jordan said to me when I was, didn't want them to use my name, he said, you have a hundred million dollar campaign to do with whatever you want. Now back then he planted that seed. Again, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Why it all just emerged. We've used the word trauma bond a couple of times here. I think it'd be good to go back and explain what that is and what we're talking about. Sure. Good point. So trauma bonds is a toxic dysfunctional connection between two emotionally attached people. Now it can happen in any sort of relationship can happen. Friends, parents, the child's work, I talk about it specifically in with intimate lovers and what a trauma bond has to have two conditions to exist. It has to have a path of balance. Anyone person has the power and abuses it and it has to have intermittent abuse, meaning you the relationship has moments of extreme love. Partners very generous and kind and helpful. But then the partners also cruel, controlling, betraying and harmful. Because you need to bring the person. You can't be constantly cruel to somebody. I if I was horrible to Mika and Tia. I was horrible to them. They would never come back. But then if I was like, you're terrible and I'm like, but I love you. You're so amazing. Oh, my gosh, let me give you this shirt or let me buy you some ice cream. Then they they that's there's that push and pull. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No one. Yeah. And what happens is that, especially in the beginning when the partner is presenting themselves as Prince Charming, that's the love bonding stage and everything. And so that ends up happening about 30% of the time. Then the mask walls and then the cruel, controlling, verbally abusive person is about 7% of the time. And so you're constantly hoping that other 30% person will come back. That's amazing. Whoops. I wrote a quote. He is not Prince Charming. He is a pathological lover. Yes. I love that. Cool. You posted it, Dr. Nain on your ID, which leads me to a question. I just discovered the word love bombing maybe two months ago because it's now a new is trending that word's trending, but a lot of people in society don't really know what love bombing means. Can you please explain that? Sure. So love bombing is usually happens in the beginning of the relationship. And that's when a person is warm and charming and calling and generous and helpful. But it happens like in a very intense manner. It's the person has to constantly be texting you, constantly be in contact with you, really wants to monopolize all your time. And they do it in these very over the top ways. But and it's with the intention to lure you in, to hook you in, to really trap you in. It's not just a slow, easy pace. So intensity is not intimacy. But love bombing happens very rapidly at an intense pace. And it's all these over the top, amazing gestures. And I have a saying, if it feels too good to be true, it probably is. When did you first realize there was something wrong with your relationship that it was too good to be true? I realized about six months in, but I didn't know what I was doing. I do keep in contact with Jordan. Yes, because we share a grandchild. But I realized about six months in when Jordan started to say to me, if you don't marry me, I'm not going to date you. Like the threats started to come. And I was like, oh, God, I don't want to get married in 23. And then if you don't have kids, I'm not going to marry you. So these threats and these really plowing through my boundaries were signs that I should have listened to. But I didn't know it back then. Nobody knew 25 years ago that he was trying to control me, but I just was like, oh, he just loves me so much. Do you think he knew he was trying to control you at the time? Sure. He thinks it was covert or he would be over. Right. Over. He's like saying to me, if you don't do this, doesn't happen. If you don't do this, doesn't happen. So it's never about what I need. And when you have children and went to get married, there's a really big decision. And it gets harder once you have children, right? Were you, once you had the kids, did you feel that you were in the thick of things and it was even harder to get out or work? Of course. Of course, yes. And listen, do I regret having my children? No, they're my best friends, my daughter's therapist, she's 30, my son's a rapper. No, it's great. But that was my decision, that wasn't his decision. So early on, things started to get rocky like that. But I was again, so much in a trance from all the love ball. I mean, that I kept overriding my gut. And you being a therapist, you being a PhD and you've got clients coming in and they're sharing you their stories and these heart-wrenching stories. And do you ever, as you're listening to them and giving them that space to, to be vulnerable and to speak to you and share that you're like, wow, this reminds me of the 22 year old version of me, the 23 year old version of me, the 25, do you ever feel that? Yeah, I'm pretty removed from it at this point, but I have so much empathy for them, A, because of the therapist, B, because I know that they're often also told it's like, right on to leave him, you're a codependent, you have a lot of helplessness, right? There's so much stigma and shame within that woman. But yeah, I do, I listen this way, I always say to myself, my poor therapist, listen to me for seven years. So every Monday at 1 PM, the same damn story. And if you didn't have that, sorry, Tia, I have a quick question or Axel has a quick question. You didn't have the experience with Jordan. You wouldn't have met your current husband. How long have you been married a long time to your current husband? I think we're together 25 years. Wow. It wouldn't have led you to where you are today. You might not have been a PhD psychotherapist. You might not have blah, blah, blah. So how do you reconcile all that stuff that there is a reason why you went through all this hell? Yeah. Where would you have been without all this stuff? I'm wondering. And that's the thing about life, right? Again, we never really know where it's going to take us. And so I could, I can make meaning out of my suffering. And so I'm just that type of person. Humans in general were meaning making individuals, but I also try not to put that onto my patients either because I don't want to have toxic positivity. It's trying to hold that balance between, yes, we can make meaning out of our suffering, but then we also have to acknowledge suffering also sucks. I love that. I think you made it. You said it like perfectly, instead of being like, there's a reason we went through it all, we don't need to frame it that way. We can instead say, look back on it and put meaning to it. Right. Because some things don't happen for a reason. They just happen because it's shit. And that's okay to acknowledge that and recognize that we don't have to make that positive and we can go back and flip it to be something so empowering that brought us to this point where who we are today. I think that's so important. And it speaks to the thing that you like to talk about a lot. I've noticed is it's not the victim blaming. It's not the codependency. There's actually traits in certain people that fall down these patterns. And it's not because you're a bad person. It's not because you're doing something wrong either. Can you talk a little bit about those traits? Yeah. So to you, that's such an important piece because when I first left Jordy, because he was such an addict, everybody was like, he's an addict and you're codependent. And this is my diet. Even as a young woman in my 30s, I was like, there's something more here. It's much deeper than that. But even the experts weren't telling me that. And in 2019 or 2018, I read a book that changed my life. And it's called Women Who Love Psych. That's by Sandra L. Brown and they. And she, I owe all of this to her. She did amazing research and because she had worked with women that were victims of into the partner violence or coercive control. And they were in and they were very high functioning women. They were judges, they were lawyers, they were therapists, they were doctors. And she was like, they're not fitting the model, the old model of this domestic violence big deal, right? And so she assessed all these women and there's a test called the five factor model personality or the big five. Do I have a website? If anybody wants to take it. And it measures. And what is your website? Can you share your website with everybody? Hey, drnade.com, n-a-e.com. And so there's a five factor model of neuroticism, openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, and extroversion. And so those are five personality traits that she measured. And what she discovered is a lot of these women, which I do, score very high in agreeableness and conscientiousness. Who's agreeable here? Let me raise our hand. Oh, God. Like waiting, I'm pointing to TS. These women are a loyal, tolerant, pro-social being that cooperate and will do anything to keep a healthy relationship. And they're also usually not all, but a lot of them. Or have a very integrity oriented life. And they're very driven to make things work. They're very like, I'm in it till the end. And not every woman has these. Some women have more developmental trauma. Some women are more dependent and I break it down in my book. So every type of woman understands their traits. But it's, if a woman comes to me and she's really a kind, generous, loving woman, what am I going to say to her? I'm going to therapize that out of you. No. She says to me, I'm a Taipei overachiever and I do things well and I do things till they're, till they're done and I feel accomplished. I'm like, okay, these are all good traits, but in the hands of a pathological person, they get totally weaponized. And when I read that research, that is really what inspired me to write my book. Wow. I'm so glad that you wrote your book and decided to truly share your story and also your clients. I know that you changed their names. Out of respect, you changed their names in your books. So you're sharing a hundred percent real cases in your book. What do you think of, because growing up, like I, I've witnessed physical abuse. Like I've witnessed in the neighborhood, in my home, and in the neighborhood, I've witnessed physical and emotional abuse. And I've also witnessed where those relationships eventually ended. Yeah. They, the women went on to other relationships that were pretty much like similar. They basically dated another person, but it was still like trauma related. How do you help women to understand to once they've ended, looks like they completely ended that relationship to actually do something, do the journey? Yeah. How do you address that? What advice would you give them? Yes. And that is very common, right? And first of all, usually when you've been in a trauma bond, it's extraordinarily pain. So pain is a great motivator. And the body and brain really grow from threat and pain. So most women, when they come to me, they're like, please, I will do anything to not experience that again. So they're very open and willing to learning about themselves. And when you're in a trauma bond, we're very focused on the other person because we have to be. So I say, let's turn the mirror back on you and let's get really curious about you. Who? Well. Yeah. What are your personality traits? What are your attachment patterns? Let's to ensure to try to ensure that they don't enter into this type of thing again. And I also, of course, in my book, educate them about the pathological person and the red flags and the signs to look for. And that's why I use so many clinical cases to illuminate all the different ways this shows up and can happen. I think you can get that in my book. I'm trying to show you every nook and cranny as to how this can happen. So you don't go through it again because so painful to go through it once. And as you're saying, Mika, is that how we pronounce it? Got it. Yeah. That it's that we don't want anybody to keep going through it again. And the nice thing I can tell you this now is some of the women I work with now and then they go back out and date and they're like, Oh, it happens again. I'm like, but you caught them in four weeks. Or you caught them in eight weeks this time, right? Not four years and eight years. I love the way you flip that. I love that you turn that into a positive because it is I catch myself. I'm on a, I've been on my personal development growth and I have a higher awareness, like self-awareness. Yeah. And then I'm able to let go. Oh, I wish I didn't think that. I'm like, Oh, I'm like, I get excited. I'm like, Oh, I'm aware of it. Like my awareness is growing. So it's so cool that you're able to tell your clients you caught it in eight weeks, you caught it in four weeks. Yeah. And you spoke about growing up and seeing a lot of physical abuse. And the thing about psychological abuse or coercive control and emotional abuse is it's tricky. It's some women say, we are wish they hit me. It would be easier to say, look at this bruise. Look at this bruise. That psychological bully, emotional abuse is hard to catch sometimes, especially if you think you luck the person or they love you. Isn't that crazy? Just you'd wish that you had physical proof because people aren't educated. What are the things if I am dating somebody new, if I'm entering into a new relationship, what should make me run like hell? Seriously, what are, what is it? So I have a pathological lover checklist. I have that on my website too, and I have it in the book. And so it's like our words matching actions. Does the person want to monopolize your time? Does the person respect your boundaries? When you speak to them, can the person actually hear you? Right now, in the beginning, it can be a little trickier because again, they can be wearing the mask. Does he tell you every X, he ever dated was crazy? You know what the problem is? You probably made them crazy. Right? So there are certain things like that we know, are they always the victim? Is everything always happening to them? They can't take accountability for their actions. So there are certain traits that on the pathological lover checklist that we, you can literally look for. Something I think that you talk about so clearly, is that you can't talk about so clearly is the difference between narcissism and pathological lover. And I think that this is something that's not actually widespread. Yeah. Narcissism is a buzzword right now. That's out there talking about narcissists. But can you explain the difference between the pathological lover and how we can identify the difference in our lives? Sure. So the way, so the word pathological means mentally unwell. Okay. So that's why I use that term. And I'm just going to do a broad umbrella term first. So I say that this person will use, whore, and betray and exploit anyone to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status. Right. So I believe that anybody that is going to use someone they supposedly love as a means to get their needs met at anybody's expense is not well. And the reason why I don't just use the term narcissism is because I believe this person is much more high cam is much more than that. So narcissism is someone who's so, so are obtuse into their image. She's very selfish. This person is deeper than that. I wish they were just a narcissist. I wish. Okay. So they, a lot of that time, they have like papathemy. They're very emotionally callous and they're very cruel. And sometimes they have mercurial value in which means they're very manipulative and very strategic. So when who stares at you knows you've been betrayed by a past leper and says, you can trust me the whole time knowing they're a cheater. That's Machiavelli. Some of them are sadistic, which we know that means that they actually get joy out of seeing the people that they love, heard. Not all of them have that, but they usually have a substance use disorder. They can have a process addiction, such as sex or gambling. They can have a mood disorder, such as major depression or bipolar. Or generalized anxiety disorder. And they have high impulsivity. So that's a lot of things. Now that won't have to have all of that, but they usually have a perfect cauldron of a mixture of those traits. Hmm. I find that fascinating. So I hope people are taking notes. I know, I know. But wait, I just start to use them. They flop. You'll see. Okay. I think the biggest thing is, is like that old school advice that are, that are grandmothers, like the women in the neighborhoods would say this, just basically watch by actions. And I feel that women dating, we are so nurturing. We're so loving that we're always seeing the potential on someone. Like we're always seeing, we're always giving grace. What's meeting someone new, but we're doing very little. I got a, I think we all want to be liked is what it is as opposed to like nurture, like we have that mother instinct, but I think there's something about women we want to be liked, right? Am I right? So where I'm going with this is we are not really matching someone's actions. Cause Dr. Nate, you, when you said that, like being like one of the science, being able to match what someone's behaviors and the words. And so do you think that most like a lot of women are not doing that, matching someone new, a new guy, matching their actions, what their words? Yes, I do. I do. And I think that also when you're dealing with a highly manipulative person, they can make that very tricky. I think that if someone is lying right to your face, initially it's going to be very hard to discern that, but you'll start to see that it starts to happen. The edges, you'll just start to see it. And I, and I think you're both right. I think that women are in your church. We are caretakers and based upon our developmental, based upon our childhood, or even just like where we are developmentally as a woman, a woman at 20 is different than a woman at 40, right? And so yes, wanting to be chosen, wanting to be liked, we all want to be accepted. That's just a human need. That doesn't mean that our, our desire to be accepted should be exploited. Wow. Totally agree. This is amazing. What would be a takeaway that you'd want to leave the audience with? What would be one thing? So I really wrote my book for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is that if you are in a trauma-earned abuse is always the fault of the abuser. You're never responsible for somebody's abuse. What you are responsible for is reaching out to somebody today, a friend, a therapist, being honest with yourself and just saying, Hey, I did this. I'm in this. I need to go reach out and get help. Don't isolate. Because there is help out there. We guys are too young for Mr. Rogers, but Mr. Rogers says, look for the help. Wait, that's not true. I remember Mr. Rogers. Yeah. So look for the help. Where's there everywhere? Don't isolate. Accept, be real with yourself and go get the help that you deserve. I think we are all obsessed with Dr. Nate, Dr. Nady, Macaluso. Yeah. Guys, I'm going to tell you one thing. Okay. I'm going to tell you one thing right now. Run to hell. Run like hell. Do your books. You still run to hell? Don't run to hell. Run like hell to everybody. To your bookstore. Run like hell to Amazon. Barnes and Noble. Get Dr. Nays, Dr. Nadyn Macaluso's amazing book. Run like hell. Don't run the hell because that's not a good place to be. That's where we're going to keep you out of. Right. So we're trying to, yeah. I'm so fine. We are so appreciative of you. We love you. We are your biggest fans. Follow her at the real Nadyn on Instagram. And guys, get obsessed with in your life and run. Let's run like hell right now. We're going to run like to the bookstores. Thank you for listening to another episode of obsessed. We're obsessed with you. Show your love by rating, reviewing, subscribing and sharing with your friends. Every time you share, you are changing someone else's life. Until we meet again, get obsessed with your life.