548: The Science of Improving Sexual Pleasure and Intimacy | Nicole McNichols, PhD

What's going on, everybody? It's episode 548 of The Genius Life. Let's go. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the show. Today, I have a fun one for you. I'm your host Max Lugavere, and today we're talking about sex, real sex, not porn scripted performative algorithm hijacked sex, but the kind that actually leaves people feeling connected, confident, and fulfilled. My guest is Dr. Nicole McNichols, a psychologist and sex educator whose course on human sexuality has become one of the most popular classes at the University of Washington, reaching thousands of students every single year. In this conversation, we unpack how porn culture is reshaping expectations, why rough sex and choking have become normalized among young adults, and what the science actually says about pleasure, anatomy, desire, and long-term intimacy. We also talk about mismatched libidos, why scheduling intimacy doesn't kill desire, and how better sex has far less to do with performance and far more to do with presence, curiosity, and self-knowledge. Listen all the way through to the end. You're not gonna wanna miss a beat. And hey, if this episode made you think of someone in your life who could use better sex, feel free to send it their way. Consider it an active service. And if you were sent this episode, just know that your friend loves you, supports you, and would very much like to see your sex life improve. If you have a moment, we'd super appreciate if you consider leaving a rating and review on your podcast app of choice, the Apple Podcast app. You can now rate podcasts on Spotify. Super fun. And I really appreciate it. It's a free way to support what we're doing here at The Genius Life. Now, with all that out of the way, here's episode 548. Let's rock. Dr. Nicole McNichols, welcome to the show. How are you doing? I am great, Max. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about one of my favorite topics, which we don't get to talk about enough, I guess, here on the podcast, but sex. Yes, sex. Let's get into it. Big, scandalous, all the taboo topics. I'm excited. It's a fun topic. And everybody, I mean, has sex in one form or another. And you wrote this incredible book, so I'm excited to dive in. But let's just, yeah, let's just jump in. So you teach thousands of students every year. Your course has become one of the most popular courses at University of Washington, right? Yes, University of Washington. Yeah, incredible. Yeah, it's 1,200 a quarter and then a few hundred over the summer. So it's 4,000 undergraduates total each year that I have the pleasure of teaching all about sex. Wow. Yeah. What would you say is the biggest lie that students come in believing about sex? That the only kind of amazing sex that exists is what they see in porn, which tends to be really rough sex where it's portraying gender stereotypes to like a dysfunctional level and with tons and tons of choking. I think students right now, that particular cohort, they have a hard time showing up in their sexual lives as like authentic, whole connected human beings. We've really normalized some pretty out there types of sex. And I've seen it historically. Like when I was growing up, Jenna Jameson was like a household name. And I would say like the sex that she was probably known for. I mean, I don't really specifically remember, but it was probably pretty tame in comparison to who came next, who in my mind was Sasha Gray. And then now it's like the Bonnie Blues of the world. And it's just like crazy that we've normalized that. It is. And as a sex educator, it's a really hard position for me to be in Max because on the one hand, I am sex positive. I do believe that human beings are incredibly imaginative and creative and that we can enjoy sex in a variety of different contexts and different people, different positions, different accoutrements, whatever it is. Let's just normalize enjoying it. But when we're engaging in sexual experiences because it's just what we see in the media, and you have to remember these kids, most of them have never had access to sex-positive, comprehensive sex education. So they don't really have anything to counter all these images they're seeing in the media that just aren't real, right? And there are just portraying like really, really rough sex. So, you know, again, I want everyone to enjoy what they can and want to enjoy. But I just hear so many students who are like, you know, I get into bed with someone and I feel like I'm expected to kind of like act like a porn star and get wildly turned on and orgasm immediately as soon as someone starts pushing me around, you know, or choking, which is really normalized among 20 and 30 year olds. I've heard that. What's that about? Yeah. Yeah. So it is. So the act itself involves like literal, you know, sexual strangulation is what we call it in the literature. And, you know, again, this is so hard for me because on the one hand, I want them to enjoy what they enjoy, but cutting off air, you know, to the brain, generally not a good idea. And then many of them think that even if they're just squeezing the sides of the neck, but allowing the trachea to breathe, that somehow that's safer. But when you're cutting up blood supply to the brain, we now have longitudinal data showing that with sexual choking, when you take women that say they engaged in that, that later you put them in an fMRI and their brain changes. So I just want people to have information and data. And if you're going to be engaging in choking, I don't want to ruin choking for anyone, but you need to be aware of the risks. That's crazy. I mean, that's a very sort of specific concrete thing, but it's more just generally, I feel like students' experiences and many of, you know, older people's sexual experiences too, as I write about in my book, they're not connected, meaning they're not authentic, right? And so in my book, I write about this goal that we should have of connected sex, which is saying, look, you can have connected sex in a variety of different contexts, right? It can be, you know, what we would term vanilla sex in a long-term relationship, but it can also be one night of casual sex with a person that you connect with, or it might be a sex dungeon. But if it's not authentic, if it's not a place where you're showing up with presence and the sexual activity isn't being guided by what actually turns you on, what actually feels good, but just the script, I think that's leading to a lot of disconnection that's leaving a lot of people feeling unsatisfied. Amen. Yeah. I mean, at one end of the spectrum, I guess you have like really repressed sex. Yes. Like really stigmatized sex, like the caricature of like sex through the bedsheet. Exactly. Right? And then at the other end, you've got like this really extreme sex, which seems to be getting only more extreme over time. Where do you think, I mean, do you think that we're ultimately as a society going to find a landing place? Well, I wrote my book as a hope to find a landing place. Yeah. That's really what we're seeing because what's really fascinating, Max, is that that shame that's making so many people feel like they can't talk about sex or that it's shameful, like you said, through the sheets or soaking, the different types of techniques that don't really acknowledge or hide behind this idea that you shouldn't be having sex. What is soaking? Oh, you don't know what soaking is? No. My students taught me this last year, actually. So it is a practice among Mormon college students where you lie in bed and you are penetrating your partner, but it's the act of thrusting, apparently, that in that religion constitutes a loss of virginity. So to prevent that but still have a pleasurable experience, your friends stand at the side of the bed and shake the bed back and forth. That has to be made up. No, it's not. I really think you really Google it. It really is a real thing. It really is a real thing. Yeah. Yeah. So or anal sex also, though, apparently there is more common because, again, because it's penetration of the anus and not the vagina. it doesn't constitute losing one's virginity. So I've always worried about that though, because doesn't the Bible frown upon sodomy? I mean. Yes. So that too, that's a good point. Yeah, it's weird. But I've heard that too. Like it's more, you maintain your vaginal virginity. Yeah. So it's like, I guess they're weighing like, okay, what's the better of two people? So I don't know. It's an interesting logic. It's interesting. Yeah. But it's that same taboo that then on the other end makes us feel like I'm ashamed of sex. I'm ashamed of my wanting. I'm afraid of my real desires. So I'm going to embrace this very performative version of sex because it's still disembodied, right? It's still a performance the same way that soaking is or the same way that being ashamed even talk about sex is. All of it just reflects our overall incredible discomfort with the topic in our culture. Wow. Where to go from there? It's so fast. It's one of my favorite topics. Actually, I took a sex psychology course in college, and it was one of my favorite courses. I love that. Yeah. I went to, for a year, Hunter College in New York City. Oh, great. Yeah. Human sexuality is so interesting. It is. Which is why I love your work. Thank you. I mean, and that's the thing is that it's so tied into everything that we're all about as human beings, right? We, again, in our culture, we tend to think of sex as being siphoned off into this domain that just kind of lives over there, right? But our sexuality, it's tied into our energy, our being, our identity, our expression, our fantasy, our wants. It's really what makes us uniquely human, right? We are not evolved to simply have sex just for the purpose of procreation. It serves a social, emotional role as well. And so, you know, when you're thinking about yourself as being a grounded, healthy person, learning to let go of that fear and stigma and embracing a sense of authenticity and connectedness in your sex life, I think can really help people feel a lot happier and more grounded in themselves. Do you think that having better sex is mostly about technique or is it more so about increased self-knowledge? It is about all of those things, right? Because an amazing sexual experience is really about pleasure, right? It's about feeling like you are experiencing sex in a state of ultimate presence and mindfulness and that you are responding to what's actually feeling good in your body and the cues emanating from your partner as opposed to just what you think you're supposed to know. So at the foundation, I talk about this in my McNichols hierarchy of sexual needs. And we do start with a foundation of needing to understand your anatomy and the science of erotic touch and the science of the types of pleasure, the types of, you know, as concrete as which direction and figures, which we have data on, right? People don't even understand how much research exists on different techniques people can use that actually bring pleasure, right? That are more likely to lead to orgasm, particularly for women who we know are less likely to have orgasms in the context of straight heterosexual sex than men. So it is critical to understand your body and to have that self-knowledge, but also to be able to communicate that to a partner. And so when you ask about, is it important for great sex to have technique? It's more about, it's important to be able to listen to what your partner is communicating they want and be responsive to that. I'd say it's more about responsiveness than having this permanent bank of sexual techniques that's in your head. That's just your go-to. That's what you do during sex. I'm programmed to be that way. And God forbid somebody not respond in the way I expect them to. Yeah, no, that sounds like it would be problematic. But I mean, there is a significant proportion of men like the, you know, there's this almost like a meme that men have no idea, broadly speaking, where the clitoris is. Right. Right. I mean, I think that luckily- I mean, I know where it is. Of course. For avoidance of doubt. Of course, Max, I would never doubt. There has been a movement of clitoracy, right? So I think that, thank God, more men know now than they did 20 years ago. But when you consider the fact that the clitoris was only fully mapped in 2006 by Helen O'Connell before that, we kind of knew there was like something that was external that was called the clitoris. But the fact that the clitoris actually has these really important internal structures too, the crura and the vestibular bulbs that are integrated around the vagina, which means that when you want to stimulate the clitoris, which is the main character when it comes to sexual pleasure for women, that there are ways to also stimulate the clitoris internally via the G-spot because you're really just getting the internal structures of the clitoris. So even though a lot of guys will be like, oh, don't, you know, I know where the clitoris is. I don't think many people really understand that, right? Understand that there are this clitor, clitor urethral vaginal complex, which is just the orchestration, right, of all of these different places inside the vagina, external to the vulva, that really work together to produce pleasure. You know, we're just so stuck on this idea that penetrative sex is the end-all be-all, that it's the main course. And penetrative sex can be absolutely incredible and connected and wonderful, but it only leads directly to orgasm for about 18% of women, right? The rest, as many people know, about 82% require some kind of clitoral stimulation that's just direct, whether that's oral sex or fingering. So I think that, you know, back to this question of how do you have better sex, it's understanding those pleasure myths that get in your way about what leads to pleasure for people, but also leaning into this idea of communication and curiosity. It's really about leading with curiosity. Crucially important. This episode of The Genius Life is brought to you by Wild Grain. Now, you guys know that I eat a mostly gluten-free diet, but when I do eat bread, I don't mess around. I go hard on good sourdough, and Wild Grain absolutely delivers. 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I mean, how are we, like, the disservice that we are doing to people by not giving them information about how their bodies work, I mean, that's just leaving people in the dark. And I mean, what's wild is that when we look at countries, for example, where they do have sex positive, comprehensive sex education, like in the Netherlands, right, we might think, and people tend to think, well, you know, if you give young people actual anatomically correct, medically accurate information about sex, it's going to make them promiscuous or it's going to make them have all sorts of sexual problems. But the reality is that those countries that have access to that sex education, they have fewer rates of STIs, fewer unplanned pregnancies, and less sexual assault and a higher rate of women who report a positive first-time sexual experience. So I really wish we could undo this myth that denying people sex education is going to keep them from getting in trouble when in fact the opposite is clearly true. Yeah. If there's one thing that listeners, viewers can start doing today, assuming that they partnered to improve their sex lives what might that be I always encourage people to lead with the positive right If you coming from this framework that curiosity is really what going to be the goal here I want you to sit down tonight with your partner, and I want you to talk about the best sex you've ever had, right? You want to use that as a launching point because we know from the literature as well as intuition that we tend to do better when we're hearing about what's working well for our partner, what they enjoyed, what they want more of. Maybe what they want more of that they're too afraid to tell us, right? Maybe things that they're curious about trying but are too afraid to ask. So I would say for couples, it's to sit down and have that conversation so that you can build anticipation, right? And talk about, again, letting curiosity be your guide for, okay, well, we loved that position. So maybe we could try another position that's sort of similar to that, that gets at that same angle. Or, hey, I loved it that we had sex after brunch and didn't try to do it when we're, you know, at home at night, exhausted after dinner. Maybe we could try planning intimacy earlier in the day again. Or, hey, that was really hot when we had sex in the shower or, you know, in the laundry room, wherever it was, someplace different than just the bedroom. What if we were to try that again? So in other words, when you're thinking about concrete things that really worked, it can be helpful because, I mean, so many of us, if you say, what do you want? It can kind of lead us feeling, I don't know, right? I mean, especially when we're so used to not talking about sex, it can feel like a lot of pressure. So if you're thinking about what did work and using that as a launching pad, that can be really helpful. Sex after meals is such a psyop. It's like the worst. Yeah, I mean, because you're like full. You never feel as sexy with a stomach full of food. And the wine, I know. Yeah, the wine, you're bloated. Right, exactly. You gotta pee. You're exhausted, exactly. And then if you have kids, you know, especially if they're young, you know you've got to get up the next morning. I mean, this is why, and I know couples often cringe when I give this advice, but just hear me out. It's so important to really put intimacy on the calendar. And note, I'm purposely using the word intimacy, not sex, right? Because I'm not encouraging people to schedule sex or plan sex because our brains tend to kind of shut down when we hear the word planning and scheduling, right? It's not very sexy. It's not very sexy. But if you think about it, we plan other things that we're excited about all the time on our calendars, whether it's a vacation or a dinner out or a massage or, you know, something that just involves a pleasurable activity. So if we think about planning intimacy as this is just going to be a time when we're going to put our phones down and we're going to have a quiet evening, the two of us. Maybe we go out, maybe we go to brunch, maybe it's going to, you know, just a walk around the park. I mean, it can be small micro moments of connection, something where ideally you're engaging in some sort of non-sexual but physical touch, whether it's hand-holding, cuddling on the couch. If you can sort of incorporate more of those times when you're just connecting and focused on each other, you're creating times when sex will naturally come from the event, right? So it's really about planning intimacy, planning moments of connection that invite sex without feeling like either person is being put into like a hardbound contract. So scheduling intimacy doesn't kill desire. It can enhance it. And there's actually even research out now showing literally last month in the Journal of sex research, showing that this can be particularly helpful for couples that have young kids, right? Which is something I have three kids. I've been married to my husband for 22 years. I have definitely been through that phase where you have young kids and you're just so busy and exhausted and managing calendars. And it's like, you just want to put something on the back burner and too often sex is it. And so the thing is like, usually, I mean, of course, in the first, you know, couple months after intimacy, you know, most doctors say at least six weeks, you're letting things heal. Like I'm not encouraging you to go be like, make sure you're having sex the minute you get home from the hospital. But at a certain point, you do need to understand that nurturing that relationship between the two of you is critical. And you're actually going to be better parents if that relationship between the two of you is more intimate and connected and strengthened the way it will be with with sex and so anyway this research study looked at couples with young kids and found that couples who planned sex had first of all more sex so it actually worked they had increased sexual frequency but they also but they also reported increased desire. In other words, it's not that the planning the sex made them completely just wilt and think, oh God, another thing on my calendar. It built anticipation, right? And it also led to this really interesting effect, which is that sometimes sex begets sex. Meaning if we, you know, I remember hearing someone speak when I was younger, it was like a nutrition talk and they were telling me about how when you stop drinking water, your body kind of goes through this process where you start like craving water less, right? You almost become just chronically dehydrated and you just sort of assume that's your natural state. And so you have to be sure to drink a lot of water because actually it's staying hydrated that makes your body feel like, oh, that's how I want to feel. So I'm going to keep drinking water. And sex can be a little bit like that, right? I mean, to a certain extent, we have to kind of get ourselves to go there by creating these moments of intimacy, because when we're having sex, it makes us crave it more, right? It's like any other exercise or eating well. You get into these habits, and it just makes you want more of what's making you feel good, right? It's the same type of inertia that really guides all our other health habits. I love that. It's so true. I mean, And it's so broadly applicable and so important what you just said. It's like, you know, a lot of people struggle with over-consuming ultra-processed foods. Yes. But by eating less of them, you stop, you actually, your cravings attenuate. Yep. But that works in the reverse way as well. People who like consume a lot of them, they just, that's what they end up craving because you're essentially like rewiring your brain's reward pathways. You are. You're rewiring your brain's neural circuitry to crave more sex. And it's the same thing with movement, right? If you're used to getting a lot of movement, working out, you know, getting steps, whatever your movement looks like, and suddenly, you know, you're on bed rest for a few days, you're going to feel antsy compared to the person who's kind of the couch potato and doesn't really feel like movement is a regular part of what their body needs, right? So it's the same thing. You just kind of get used to what your body feels good doing, what it's used to. We are all complete suckers for familiarity, right? We want to fall into familiar habits. So sometimes, again, it's not that you have to force yourself to have sex the way you need to force yourself to eat healthy or force yourself to go to the gym. But to a certain extent, it is a skill set. It is a habit that when you develop, it does build desire simply by being part of your regular schedule. How do people in long-term monogamous relationships keep things interesting? You said you've been married for 20 years? 22 years. 22 years. Yes. First off, like mazel tov, that's amazing. Thank you. How do you keep things spicy after all that time? You know, it's really about understanding that desires change and bodies change. And it's just sort of a constant effort to communicate and try new things. And, you know, I think part of it is we hear about this idea of novelty all the time, right? And how important novelty is. And people can kind of feel like that's an unattainable goal because when we think of novelty, we think like, oh my God, does that mean I need to go to a sex store and get handcuffs or get a whip, you know, or get a whole dominatrix get up? And for some people, that might be amazing. I talk all about how you can do that if you want to in my book. I'm all for it if it's your thing. But for some people, it really is just as simple as, you know, maybe it's exploring. I mean, look, the research says one new thing a month tends to lead to higher levels of sexual satisfaction than less than one new thing a month. So if you are thinking about introducing a new position or introducing having sex at a different time of day, or maybe you're not in for like the full flogging, but gentle spanking seems like it could be something that's fun. Maybe it's a different form of dirty talk. Maybe it's a form of role play. There can be all different micro forms of novelty that can keep things interesting. But I mean, I think the other thing about sex is that we forget how a lot of it is just how we're showing up in the bedroom. And I think that a lot of couples, they lose desire because they become sort of over familiar, meaning there isn't enough of a effort to sort of indulge your own autonomy in the relationship. And I do not mean creating distance, but rather encouraging your own self-growth, right? Because the more that we can kind of stay on this path towards being more connected, happy people pursuing our own passions and the own things that light us up in our lives, we're going to bring that same sense of passion and being lit up about life back into the bedroom. So it's really about like showing up and feeling not just this is a function of how attractive am I to my partner, but how attractive am I to myself, right? You kind of have to be able to look yourself in the mirror figuratively and literally and think, I want to have sex with myself before you're able to really engage with a partner in the bedroom. I like that. And what do you do if you don't feel that way? I think you have to kind of think about what's going on in your life that's leading you to feel that way, right? Like what are sort of the, you know, if it's something that really has to do with anguish or anxiety, I mean, I cannot encourage therapy more. I mean, I think it's, I think everyone personally should be in therapy, but untangling whatever those obstacles are that are kind of getting in your way, maybe the places in your life where you feel stuck. And look, I'm not at all saying that you have to have all of that figured out before you can have an active, healthy sex life. For sure, relationships are vehicles for change, and partners can help us heal. I was personally a hot mess in my 20s, and I do believe that my husband and that relationship and that stability and unconditional love helped me to grow into a different person, a better one, I think. It's beautiful. But at the same time, you have to be a participant in your own growth. And if you're not doing that, that is, as we said, sex feeds into all of this. If you're not a participant in your own growth, if you're not spending time pursuing the things that bring you joy and pleasure, you're going to have a hard time showing up in the bedroom in a place where you can be responsive to pleasure and truly be present. Beautifully put. Yeah. What about mismatched libidos in the context of a relationship? So the first thing about mismatched libidos is to understand that that exists in virtually every relationship. There is almost always going to be one person who craves sex a little bit more and another person who craves it just a little bit less. And that is okay. And does that oscillate over time? It often does oscillate over time, depending on who's busy, who's stressed, what you're going through. And sometimes it's just a constant. So there are a couple of things that can be really helpful for that. First of all, it is really important to note that when you look at sexual satisfaction, even couples that have a lot of desire discrepancy can report really high levels of sexual satisfaction if they reported something that they actively are trying to work on with their partner, right? So then the question just becomes, okay, well, how do you work on it? So I recommend, right, let's say, you know, you can start from a really practical standpoint. Let's say your partner's libido leads them to want to have sex five times a week. And you're more of a once a week or once every other week kind of person. Are there ways that you can, again, going back to this idea of planning intimacy, build other moments throughout your week when you could try to have sex, maybe not five times a week, but maybe once, right? Maybe aiming for that target of once, right? And the idea could just be that, you know, again, when we know or anticipating a night or afternoon or morning of intimacy with our partner, we're more likely to do things to get ourselves into that mindset, right? We maybe like do all the grooming habits that we would want to do, or we turn our laptop off earlier, or we get a good night's sleep the night before. And if there's sort of this planned intimacy, it just makes us less likely to kind of turn off. If our partner is trying to initiate a time, that's just not when we want sex. Because that's, I think that's what can really start to feel hurtful in a relationship is if one person feels like there's just sort of constantly being rejected, right? That's a really hard time. Then the other partner starts to feel just a real sense of guilt, as well as, you know, feeling like a resentment almost of their being nagged. So sometimes it's just as easy as, okay, let's plan intimacy and make sure that we are initiating in a way that makes both of us feel the most likely to want sex. Beyond that, it could just be that one person needs it a whole lot more, let's say every day. And is that more about sexual release? Normalize masturbation, right? That is okay. It is totally healthy for people in relationships to masturbate. In fact, studies show that people in relationships who masturbate report higher levels of sexual satisfaction than people who don't. You have sex more, not less. So if it's just about needing that release, there are other ways to find that release that you just shouldn't feel ashamed of. Or maybe it's about one person feeling like they just need more connection in general with their partner, right? Are there ways, you know, I think particularly for men who are often not taught how to be vulnerable, right? Not to be honest about the fact that they want to feel seen and heard and validated in relationship, want to feel appreciated, want to feel respected and and want to feel close to their partner, that sex can be kind of the only tool that they've been taught is sort of an acceptable way to seek that out. So maybe it's about, okay, they don't need sex every day, but what if instead of sex every day, there were more moments of connection throughout the week where time was spent giving attention to those emotional needs? Because it could just be about, again, just that desire to be close to your partner because you miss them. Right. So I think it's really getting at the heart of what's driving the discrepancy and just remaining committed to really trying to resolve it. Yeah. I mean, you're never entitled to somebody else's body. But when I think about like the purpose of relationship for me, I mean, part of that is certainly access to regular sexual opportunities. A million percent. Yes. And I agree with that. And that can, for some, is an unpopular opinion, but sex is really important to relationships. Now, there is a caveat. There certainly are couples where both people, where there's not really a lot of sex or any sex, right? We define a sexless marriage as, I think, six times or five times a year or more, who both report high levels of relationship satisfaction and say they're fine. That's totally valid. But for the vast majority of people, sex is important, right? And I think that, you know, at the beginning of any relationship, it should be talked about as, you know, what's our life going to look like? What are our values? What do we want to do? How do we want to structure our lives? Part of that conversation can be what do we want our sex life to look like? Because I think that that's a commitment that absolutely is important and that people are entitled to. And by entitled, again, I don't mean that anybody should ever be forced to have sex with somebody else. I just mean that there should be a commitment to this idea that if sex isn't happening in the relationship or isn't happening in a way that's satisfying to both partners, there needs to be a commitment to having a conversation about how to work your way through that. Yeah. Amen. Does sex tend to get better or worse with age? So I think that it gets better with age is the short answer to that. If you are in a position where you know your body, you know how your turn-ons work, you kind of have more confidence, you know, there's sort of this idea in a relationship that, oh, over 20, 30 years, you're just going to naturally lose attraction for your partner. And that doesn't really have to be true. In fact, the more you trust somebody, the more they kind of understand your body, the more relaxed you feel expressing what your fantasies and desires are to that person, like the better sex can be, right? I mean, again, we see in the movies, we see in porn that the hottest sex only happens when you're with a new partner and it's someone you barely know. But the reality, especially I'd say for women, is that sex is hotter when you're with someone where you can be honest about what really is going to do it for you. So I think that there's, you know, and it kind of goes along with this myth that the secret to desire in long-term relationships is mystery, right? And I just, I really wish we could get rid of that myth because the secret to relation, you know, if you're, if you're, you know what I mean? If we were to look at like, well, is any aspect of that true? I suppose passion thrives on both individuals being committed to their own self-growth. And so I do believe that you need to keep changing and growing throughout your lives, whether it through growing through career or through other interests or through other ideas that you interested in in life Because when you both commit to doing that and you make time and this is the critical part to then connect, you're essentially coming back to each other each time as a slightly different version, right? That's introducing that micro novelty over time that's sustaining desire. But this idea that we're going to be most attracted to our partner when we don't know them is just, I mean, there's literally decades of research by the Gottmans showing that it's when we have developed love maps of our partners, when we know about their hopes, their dreams, their fears, who they are, who they want to be, what they want to achieve. When we look at that and validate that, that's when we feel turned on. Well, yeah, you talk a lot about connecting with your sexual self and I feel like, and the confidence that comes with that. And I just think, you know, as you, I would assume that as you get older, you tend to be more confident. You tend to be more comfortable in your skin. Um, less, uh, you know, maybe some of the anxiety that you had in your youth about your body. Like, I mean, I hope that with age that, and I would assume that that tends to dissipate to some degree. Yes. A million percent. I think that there's for sure more what Masters and Johnsons called spectatoring among younger women. And so spectatoring is, if you're not familiar with their research, they in the 1960s brought people into a lab, hooked them up with electrodes and literally had them have sex and measured all of the different physiological changes in their body. Enormously helpful research when helping people to treat with sexual dysfunction. But they also discovered this psychological phenomenon that happens, where you are having sex, but instead of being present in your own body, you're observing yourself almost as if from a third person perspective, hence the term spectatoring. And so this might look like thinking, oh, what does my butt look like? Or my breasts, you know, bumping in the wrong way. And this is only being exacerbated. I've had students show me TikTok accounts of influencers who literally, they show you different sex positions to show the most flattering angle of your stomach or your thighs to your partner. I mean, if you think about how that's just robbing you of that sense of presence, it's terrible. But I think that as women get older and also as men get older, body image still stays sort of a factor in all of this, right? And just this feeling that even if you know it's not real, you know social media is fake, you know that you're not supposed to look like a waif-thin model, the reality is that those are still the images that we're seeing in the media and that we're seeing on our Instagram feeds. And so body image is still at some unconscious level going to threaten, if it really becomes an issue, your own ability to be present. And what newer research is showing also feeds into what's known as your sexual style, which is going to impact your partner's experience as well. What are sexual styles? What do you mean by that? Okay, so there are three different sexual styles. One, the first that we can talk about is sexual inhibition, right? So that's kind of what I'm talking about with people who have body image issues and kind of feel like they're not comfortable really showing their bodies, being present in their bodies. Obviously, that's going to lead to a partner who feels apprehensive And it's going to pick up on those cues that the person is anxious about their bodies. And that's going to compromise the quality of their sex life. Then you have people who are what we call a sexually harmonious style. That's kind of what it sounds like. They are more kind of comfortable in their skin. They are not shy during sex, showing different body parts. These are the people that don't really have any trouble having sex with the lights on, enjoy their bodies are not really being, you know, dragged under the ocean waves of this guilt and shame about their body. And then we have the third one, which is called sexual obsession, right? So you have a sexually obsessive style. And this one's a little interesting because it can kind of go both ways. So the name is what it suggests, right? You're either, you know, essentially, you're really into your body, right? You are like especially kind of like into what your body looks like and what your genitals look like. In terms of the impact that this can have on your sex life, sometimes it can lead to sort of a very, it can have a negative effect because it's leading to sort of a very performative approach to sex, right? And so you're having sex like a ton because it's just making you kind of feel like it's all about that performance. But sometimes it can have absolutely no negative effect at all. And just think of the person who's like, yeah, I'm kind of like a porn star. I feel really hot. I love my body. And it works in your favor. So that one's a bit complicated. Nightmares to date those people though. Yeah, I would imagine so. A little narcissistic. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That is so interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess like not that I'm speaking for or have the ability to speak for all men. But I mean, as a man, I can say that, you know, like if you're a woman and you're concerned about your body in the context of intimacy, like the guy is just psyched to be there. Right. Exactly. I tell people that all the time. It's hard to get laid. It is. It's like women are amazing gatekeepers. Like it is not easy for your average guy. Yeah. Your average guy is living a life of quiet desperation. And if a woman so much as it gives a guy a crumb of their sexual energy. Right. I mean, it's like. They're happy to be there. They are not judging you the way you think they are. You are your own harshest critic. Exactly. I wish more people understood that. Yeah. Sexual. It's like sex is like pizza. You know, I mean like even the worst pizza. Exactly. It's still pizza. It's still pizza. It's still pretty good. Exactly. Like how bad could it be? Bread and cheese and tomatoes. Right. How bad could it be? It's awesome, exactly. If you're a guy and you've got a pair of breasts in your face, nipples looking at you, a vulva. You're pumped to be there. To play with. Yeah, you're pumped. Yeah, exactly. You're pumped. Like the self-consciousness. You're not thinking, I wish that pepperoni was bigger, right? Exactly. That cheese looks saggy. No one's thinking that during sex. Nobody. Like no guy. And if he is, he's probably like a pathologic ass. Right, exactly. Like you don't want to be with that guy. Anyway, that's not a reflection on you. Exactly. Well put. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. It's so important. Yeah. So important. And I also love that you bring a voice that's like not overly academic. I mean, like, you know, you're a doctor. like this is what you do, you teach courses. But, you know, sometimes I find conversations about sex, like there's this desire to shoehorn it into like this like overly academic framing. When sex should be kind of like messy and it's like not, it can be complicated. It's an art as much as it is a science. Exactly. How'd you get into this? Well, I did not grow up believing I would become a sex professor. I'll definitely say that. But I was a newly minted psychologist in 2009 coming out of grad school. And I thought I wanted to help people who are feeling really lonely and disconnected. I was focused more on this idea that people were stressed out and overwhelmed with technology. And how did you kind of help people break through from those patterns? I was, practically speaking, teaching multiple classes in the psychology department at the University of Washington. And about two weeks before the start of winter quarter, the professor who taught the course for about 30 years before me fell and broke her leg. And so an SOS email went out in the department and no one wanted to do it because it was considered a very awkward subject at best to teach, filled with landmines and numerous ways that it could go terribly wrong. But I looked at it as a fun opportunity. And so rationally or not, I kind of raised my hand Katniss Everdeen style and said, you know, offering myself as tribute here, let's do this. And it was interesting because right away, Max, I really realized that people were struggling with so much shame and stigma and fear and anxiety around this topic that was so central to so many people's lives. And that if I could help heal people from this trauma, from the shame, from the sense that sex was just a hopeless situation that was never going to get better, I could actually achieve the goal I originally set out to work on, which was to help people feel less lonely, more connected and more integrated. So it was like I quickly realized just how central sexual well-being is to our mental health. I mean, not to mention the physical benefits of improving cardiovascular health. It leads to longevity. It protects against degenerative brain disease. It is a really good tool for improving immunity, all of those things too. But from a psychological standpoint, its ability to make us feel like we have the skill set to show up authentically in a connected, real way in our lives. And then from that position of power, connect with other people in real, authentic ways was really something I recognized and just wanted to go deeper into. That's amazing. And the course ended up becoming like wildly popular. Yeah. So, I mean, at that point, when I first inherited it, it had a couple hundred students twice a quarter. and I just kept adding and adding because the thing was, I knew it was a popular course, but I didn't want to limit access to it in any way. So I really wanted to encourage it to grow if given or at least just meet the demand that existed. At the same time, I was diving into all of the literature, right? So believe it or not, there's the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the Journal of Sex Research, the Journal of Sexual Medicine, going to academic conferences on sex. So really kind of talking to the leading experts in the field. But then bringing human voices into it was really important. And really, I think what really led to the success of the class was leaning into student experiences. Like, yes, this is the science, but tell me how you're feeling. Like, what are the issues that you are struggling with in your sex life? And, you know, does this material resonate with you? How or how not? How, if it doesn't, like what's missing, right? What's missing from this equation? So it was making myself vulnerable in a way, right? It was really acknowledging to my students that, yeah, I had a lot to teach them, but they also had a lot to teach me, right? Even just through the questions that they would ask. So it just grew and grew. And, you know, then COVID happened, classrooms shut down, we were no longer limited by the size of the classroom. We went on Zoom and we got it up to 1,200 students. There's still a huge waiting list, but I think at this point, my TAs and I are maxed out at 1,200 a quarter. So- Wow, that is so cool. Thank you. Well, what about, so, I mean, there's all this interest obviously from younger people, but isn't there, I mean, I've heard, or I've at least seen the suggestion that younger generations like Gen Z, they're having less sex in generations past. What do you make of that? Well, there is a really interesting paradox because they are having less sex, even though they feel more comfortable talking about sex and are more used to seeing sex in porn and the media. And in terms of this, it's reflective of an overall sex recession that is true, not just, it is primarily being driven by Gen Z, who are having less sex than millennials were when they were in college and then Gen X when we were all in college. But it's pronounced, I think, because we're just at a place where it's the same reason so many people are feeling so lonely. I think it's just social media and online dating, which have just had profound effects on how young people find partners and seek out and negotiate sexual experiences, to feeling stressed out about finding a job, the stress that comes from academics, the stress from the financial situation, which means that many of them are trying to complete school while holding down two jobs. It's just a tough time to be in your 20s in general. And so the fact that their sex lives are struggling is kind of a natural extension of that, I think. But again, it's just back to this fact that if you are, you know, thinking of sex as something that needs to look like what you see in a porn scene and has to include rough sex and choking, and if you're not measuring up, it's going to leave you feeling depleted and anxious. Like who wants that, right? It's just feels like it's just so ripe for rejection and feeling substandard. Do you think that porn is a net negative or net positive to society? I think that porn is so much more nuanced and complicated than many people want to admit, right? So of course, there are porn activists that think all porn is great, that the whole fear of porn is way overhyped. But then there are also people who are on the anti-porn crusade who label it all as completely evil. So I think that porn use in the right context can be helpful to people's sex lives, right? And what the data suggests is that it really comes down to motivation, right? So if you are watching porn and the motivation is seeking pleasure, it's fun. Just like masturbation, it's a form of self-care. You are looking at something that is a fantasy that maybe is inspiration for something you'd actually want to try, or maybe it's just fun to think about. And it's existing in your life in a way that's not taking away from your other sexual experiences. It's not keeping you from getting to your job. It's not keeping you from going out and connecting with other people in real life. There's nothing wrong with it, right? The problem becomes when, you know, especially when we have a generation of young men who feel lonely and disconnected and don't have the tools for finding support for anxiety and emotional issues. And so they turn to porn because it is kind of the only thing that's available to them, right? And so it becomes, rather than a tool of pleasure, it becomes more of a form of emotional avoidance, where instead of thinking about whatever the heart issue is that they're struggling with at hand, whether it's their depression or anxiety or something bad that happened at their job or their relationship, they're sort of blanking out to porn, right? Watching it becoming very, you know, and the thing is, is that when we look at problematic porn use, which has really been established as more of a compulsion than an addiction, almost more akin to something that is almost more like OCD, for example, than like a heroin addiction, that it just becomes this cycle where you feel very, very anxious. So the way that you seek to alleviate those feelings is the same way that you would, you know, you basically go see, watch porn. That porn provides momentarily release, a momentary way to not think about those problems, but then you feel tremendous guilt and shame about it. And so then you're back into this spiral. But what I really wish is that we could stop labeling and shaming people as being porn addicts and just come to this issue with more compassion and acceptance because the reality is that a lot of people watch a lot of porn and have absolutely no issues and some people watch porn and have a lot of issues but it's not that you are a bad person if you're watching porn and you certainly shouldn't go sign up for some program that's going to make you feel like stopping porn is going to solve all your problems because it's it's not, it's more saying, what's the underlying issue here that's leading you to seek something out like that and that's preventing you from seeking real deeper solutions to your problems? Yeah, I would totally, totally agree with that sentiment. I think that it's very similar to, for example, sugar. I mean, you can have a healthy relationship with sugar, even though there's no such thing as a biological necessity for added sugar. I mean, if you have a healthy relationship with food, you can eat a little bit of sugar here and there. You can use sugar as a way to fuel your workouts, your high intensity workouts. But then obviously, because of the nature of the environment today, some people are going to be exposed to sugar and it's going to become their out to whatever stresses they're feeling to, you know, to whatever. I mean, it can be abused. And similarly, I think it's the same thing with porn. You know, and people, if people are becoming, not just from the consumer side, if consumer, if guys are getting addicted to porn, well, it's also like the porn industry is like continuing to feed the beast, right? So it's like, it's like the porn is constantly available. It's the guys are like not getting laid as easily because of social media. It's like this huge systemic problem that's a point to figure out like one thing. It's really hard. And I think the sugar metaphor, by the way, is spot on. Another example is social media, right? Social media can be a fun way to connect. It can be, you know, entertainment. It can be a way to get your mind off something for a little bit, but it can also become this obsessive scrolling that is just kind of a mind numbing waste of time. And so it's the same thing, you know, with porn, it's like social media can fit nicely into your life. It can give you inspiration for things you want to try and, you know, different looks or whatever it is that you're into. But when it becomes something that you're on for hours and hours and hours, and when it's keeping you from getting up and talking to your partner, it's kind of doing the same thing that porn is doing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely, I'll like routinely like scroll over to my explore page or whatever on Instagram. And it's like some pornified thing, some girl or whatever, just like for clicks doing something that clearly is like designed to elicit that reptile aspect of my brain. And I like oh there my porn brain There the part of my brain that doesn wanna click away from In fact it wants to go check out the profile And I have to stop myself because I hate it It like yeah it like hijacks your brain It's like you're being fed against your will, like some ultra processed, like Krispy Kreme donut. Like, you know, it's like, yes, it's delicious. It's delicious. Like, I want to keep eating it. But like, also no. Right, right. You know? But even if the content has nothing at all to do with sex, I mean, these algorithms are crazy. Like the ability for TikTok to keep feeding you videos about whatever thing you've just watched that's making you anxious, whether it's something about politics or some conspiracy thing or, you know, some. There was a study that just came out. Short form content is like the more short form content you watch, like the more the higher your risk for depression. Yeah. I'm not surprising. I'm not surprised. Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. It is crazy. I hate the algorithm. I think it's one of the most important and pressing and urgent conversations to be had today, how to transcend all this cheap and easy dopamine. And it's not just the dopamine. It's like I'm very interested in health. By extension, I'm interested in medicine. By extension, I'm interested in nature and biology. And by extension, when a medical oddity pops up on my Instagram Explorer feed, I get very curious about that. You go down the rabbit hole. So I go down and I look at people with crazy deformities or whatever. I'm like, what condition is that? So I'm always like, no, it's crazy. And then so that's what my Instagram algorithm gives me a lot. is like people with crazy deformities from Brazil that were born with three arms or India that have like no lower body below the belly button. And that's what my explore on top of the hot girls and the shirtless jacked guys that I also watch because I'm into fitness. It's like these medical oddities and I'm like, stop at a certain point. But then when I see it, I click into it. And yet telling people not to watch it at all is just not a reasonable solution. I mean, these forms of media are here to stay, whether we like it or not. And so we have to find a way to have healthy relationships with them so they can fit into our lives in a way that's beneficial, not that's robbing us of our ability to be present. Amen. Yeah. Are there any sexual practices that are still you find to be stigmatized that are actually much more popular than you might think? Well, we can get into some that are sure. So for example, it's funny. I see, Max, all the time that there's sort of these different sex trends that come that seems in and out of style for different generations, right? So for Gen Z, early millennials right now, it's choking, like we've talked about. right? Super into sexual choking. I've also seen though, a resurgence of two kind of really interesting sexual acts. One is cuckolding, which is, do you know what this is? Please, to be honest. I will share. So cuckolding is, you can kind of think of it as like a jealousy kink. So it's basically the idea that you would go out with your girlfriend and you would have, you know, her go flirt with another guy that you would just watch and you would invite him back to your place and watch them have sex and you would not take place in the sex you would not be this is not a threesome but you would be watching them have sex i know it's fascinating isn't it that's so insane to me yeah and then the other one that no judgment though yeah no no exactly what the hell what the And then there is pegging has actually, I think, gotten a lot more popular lately. And this is just from people reaching out to me. Do you know what pegging is? Please. What? Explain. So pegging is when a person takes a strap on, which is kind of like a dildo attached to a harness that you would put around your body. And it would be, say, your female partner using it to penetrate their male partner. Okay. Now, here's the thing, right? Let's take pegging, for example. We think, oh my God, who the fuck is doing this? That is crazy, right? Nobody's doing that. But then you look at research by Justin LaMiller at people's sexual fantasies. What are the top five sexual fantasies that Americans most commonly report? Well, homoeroticism and gender bending is up there. In other words, this idea that we assume different genders or have sex as if we're a different sexual orientation than we actually are, that is a fantasy, is a lot more common than people realize. Wow. Yeah. I don't know if you ever saw White Lotus season three. Are you a White Lotus fan? I only saw, I've only seen season one. Well, there is a scene between two characters where he admits one of the characters that he's always wondered why he went through this phase where he would have sex with like hundreds of women. Oh, I saw that scene. Yes. Out of content. I love that scene. That's an amazing scene. They deserve Oscars or whatever the equivalent is for TV. It's who are the actors? It's, I don't know, you guys can Google it. It's an amazing monologue. Amazing monologue. Amazing. And so he admits that. And it's just, it's stunning, right? It was stunning. It was stunning. But I don't think it would have been as stunning if it didn't hit a nerve that at some level There are a lot of people who have a very complicated sexuality, right? Where it's not so unbelievably out there that nobody ever fantasizes about that. So I thought that scene was really interesting. Or consider He Did Rivalry, right? The show that's taken the world by storm right now. What is that? He Did Rivalry. Do you know what He Did Rivalry is about? No, but by the way, it was Sam Rockwell. Yes, Sam Rockwell. Sam Rockwell's monologue on his journey from partying in Thailand to exploring his desire for Asian girls and ultimately finding solace in Buddhism is, I guess, I don't know. Yes. But that's, definitely Google that if you have a chance. Google it. Sam Rockwell's White Lotus monologue. Yes. Fascinating. How he realized he wanted to fantasize that he was an Asian girl, being, in his words, fucked by himself. Yes. No, it was very, it was very, there were so many layers to it. So many layers to it. Yeah, I can't, I'm not gonna be able to do it justice, but people should check that out. They should, yeah. Heated Rivalry, do you know what the show is about? No. Gay male hockey players. Lots, it's smut. It is number one show on HBO Max right now. And it is just raw, unabashed male gay sexuality. Really, really hot, smutty sex scenes. Guess who the primary viewership is? Who? Straight woman. Interesting. Guess who one of the top porn categories. Guess which is one of the top most searched for porn categories on Pornhub for straight woman? What? Gay male porn. Interesting. Lesbian porn, even among straight women. Well, lesbian porn I can see. Straight male porn, that I cannot fathom. Well, gay male porn. Gay male porn. Sorry, gay male porn. Gay male porn. Yeah. Whoa. So why is that, right? One could theorize it's because there aren't the same power differentials when you're watching same gender sex. You're not watching the same kind of sexual script where the man is pushing the woman up against the wall and then choking her and spanking her. And it's more equal. There's more of an acknowledgement of raw desire without having to feel ashamed for that desire because men are not ashamed for casual sex as women are. But it all points to this really interesting fact that a lot of times what turns us on in our heads, what we fantasize about, isn't necessarily a direct reflection of what we want in real life, right? And this is so true that more modern models of sexual orientation, for example, if you are interested in looking into this, check out sexual configurations theory, shows that our fantasies and what we are drawn to in our heads so often is so distinct from the experiences we desire in real life that that really needs to be incorporated in to how we think about our sexual orientation. That it's no longer just what gender you're attracted to, but this acknowledgement that maybe you're attracted to just men or just women when you're having sex face-to-face, but what you fantasize about or what you enjoy in porn might be same-gendered sexual experiences. And the idea is that that doesn't make you weird, that doesn't mean that you're lying to yourself, that doesn't mean that you're confused, it just means that you are beautifully human and that we all have really interesting sexual configurations. It's very interesting, but it makes me think about, I had a conversation with my friend Sal DiStefano recently, and he was saying that kind of along the same lines that men are now starting to watch porn that is just escalating in its extremity. And it's not even necessarily reflective of what they desire IRL. More so, it's just that they're becoming habituated. They're becoming tolerant, essentially, to porn, which they're needing to escalate in terms of its intensity to get the same level of dopamine, to get off. So they're watching like, you know, straight guys are watching gay porn. Right. Because it's just like penis and vagina. Yeah. Vanilla sex just isn't doing it in the same way anymore. Just to play devil's advocate, right? Is it the fact that they've become habituated to straight porn and so now are going to something more extreme to get the same hit? Or is it just that they've realized that watching gay male porn is fun? That's part of their sexual configuration. But because as a culture we feel so uncomfortable with that, we want to stigmatize and say that it's actually a signal of a problem. That's a great question, because I do believe that sexuality is a spectrum. Yes. And so, yeah, it's a very interesting question. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? So wait, so circling back to pegging. Yes, pegging. Do you think that more couples are doing it because it's the fantasy on the part of the woman or more men, heterosexual men, are desiring being pegged? I think it's both. So it taps into something that's also fundamental to human sexuality, which is erotic power play, right? Which is kind of at the basis of all kink and BDSM. But what people don't realize is that, you know, we tend to think of being kinky as either you are kinky or you're not kinky. But the reality is kink is kind of a continuum, right? Even if you're talking about what, by the way, I think is the most underrated sexual activity, which is kissing, there's always going to be a leader and a follower, right? Or we all have fantasies about another person ravishing us and us just surrendering. Or we become the person that takes over and controls the situation and the other person just succumbs, right? These are at the very heart of our fantasies and the types of media that really turn us on. So pegging is just kind of taking that almost to another, even more taboo level, right? And the idea is just that, you know, first of all, we always tend to get really turned on by that which is taboo. But if you consider the fact that oftentimes the roles that we want to play in our sexual lives are counterbalanced to the roles that we want to play in our real life. So for example, take the politician, the CEO who is running the show and then seeks out the dominatrix. And if you ask dominatrixes, I've had them speak in my class on this very topic, they'll report that a lot of their clients are just those people, right? Who have all these responsibilities during their day. And so when they come to see the dominatrix, it's not even a question of having sex. They just want to surrender from that responsibility and have someone yell at them and tell them what to do. Like that's what feels good and exciting and arousing at the time. And same thing for a person who might feel like they don't have a lot of control in the rest of their lives, where they feel like they're having to follow the orders of other people around them. They in their sexual life may have this emotional need of wanting to take charge, being unashamed, not having to be the good girl, allowing to be sort of wild and out there and free, you know, different than the person that's the good mother, the good wife, the good sister. So if you look at pegging, right, and let's say the most common dynamic in the context of like a straight couple, which would be the woman doing the pegging, so wearing the strap on with the dildo and then anally penetrating her male husband or partner, boyfriend, whatever, or one night stand, whatever it may be. The idea is that she's getting turned on by taking this position of the male dominant aggressor. He's getting turned on by now suddenly being the subservient one that's surrendering, that is giving up that control. Suddenly, your minds have just gone to a place in your erotic life that you're fulfilling emotional needs that are just not being met in other areas. where it's fulfilling you in a way that's counterbalancing those roles that you play in the rest of your life. In a sense, it's no different than other kinds of play, right, that we engage in. If you think about, you know, kids get to play all the time. Sex is sort of the one area as adults where we get to play and try on those different roles and different personas. And so it makes sense that, you know, yes, pegging may not be for everyone, but it's certainly not indicative of any kind of problem if it is something that turns you on. If it turns you on, go for it. Just make sure it's consensual. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I mean, and also, I mean, of course, the male G-spot, right? Yes. Like the prostate. Yes, exactly. From a pleasure perspective, yes. The actual prostate, right, the P-spot is two to three inches inside the anus, right? And so yes, stimulating that can lead to an orgasm for a male. Interesting fun fact, unlike what people expect, orgasm in males does not have to always equate to ejaculation. So a P-spot orgasm can help a male have multiple orgasms because you don't have a refractory period until you ejaculate. So you could have multiple orgasms stimulated from your P spot with only one final one that's leading to ejaculation. So there's that with pegging too. What a world we live in. No, it's fascinating. I mean, power to you. I have a really good friend who is very masculine. He's very heterosexual. And he confided to me one day that he was seeing a woman and they began engaging in this. like she started pegging him and he was super into it. Yeah. It's like super, super into it. And I can't relate. I mean, I've never, you know, I've never, I've never done that. I, you know, I've been over the course of my, I'm 43. So I've been with women who have like, you know, attempted to like put a finger up there. Right. And I'm like, no thanks. Yeah. This is not my thing. And Max, neither have I. And that's the point. That's the point. Yeah. It's great. It's great. But when my friend was telling me this, I was like, that's awesome. Yeah. Like, good for you. That's great. Yeah. Just another tool in the toolbox. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Something to celebrate and just think, aren't human beings amazing? Not something to be afraid of or think is indicative of some larger problem. Just use lots of lube. Lots of lube. Yes, exactly. And communicate along the way. Go slowly. Do not just rush into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Wow. Well, this is so interesting. Loved having you in. This was amazing, Max. Thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. It was so fun. Man, we got to have you back. I'd love it. I've got one last question for you. But before we get to that, where can people pick up your new book, which I wish we had on set, but we don't. But you've got this incredible new book. Thank you. And how can people connect with you on social media? Great. Thank you. So my new book, You Could Be Having Better Sex, is out February 3rd. You can pre-order it now or buy it on the third or after at any bookstore or online retailer, just wherever your favorite place is to buy books. And please also follow me and my work on social media and or TikTok at NicoleTheSexProfessor. Love it. What does living a genius life mean to you? Oh, to me? Is that a question? Oh, okay. Living a genius life. I didn't know if that was the outro. Sorry. No. That would actually be a good outro. I can see where you think that. I was like, how clever to leave it with a question. Well, great opportunity for my listeners to introspect a bit. But no, for you, Dr. McNeigles. So living a genius life isn't about knowing all the tools and tricks and tips and places. It's about self-acceptance and about curiosity and having a growth mindset and being open to change. So it's really about embracing the fact that we are wonderfully diverse and complex and that sex is an important part of our lives that deserves the same attention as all those other important aspects that feed into our health and well-being. Beautifully put. Thanks again. Thank you. and uh yeah have have lots of sex guys if you don't have anybody have sex with have sex with yourself and use lib peace hey guys thanks so much for listening to this episode of the show if you enjoyed it hit subscribe and leave a rating and review it really does help and don't forget to grab my free weekly newsletter at max lugavere.com slash newsletter for science-backed insights expert interviews and exclusive discounts no spam just good stuff catch you next time Bye.