Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with John Cochran)

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AG one helps make sure you're getting some of the good stuff every day. Head to drink AG one dot com slash love it to get a free welcome kit with an AG one flavor sampler. And a bottle of vitamin D three plus K two. When you first subscribe, that's drink AG one dot com slash love it. Drink AG one dot com slash love it. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to love it. I'm really be presents Bravo America. I'm sitting down with some of my favorite personalities from reality TV because you cannot understand politics in this moment. If you do not understand the dynamics of reality, television, take a listen to how congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on pod save America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention. Right. They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people. And the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face. Today I'm joined by survivors. John Cochran, he made his debut in season 23. And then he came back to win in season 26. Jeff Prope has called him one of if not his favorite survivor competitors because of his unlikely comeback story as a scrappy self-devocating nerd who overcame the odds on the island. We dig into Cochran's experience being bullied though he questions the term in his first run. And how he's able to understand a control by dynamic in his second season on the show in win. We also talked about the ways in which survivor has evolved alongside our culture. And as politics become more mean and toxic and bullying, survivor has become more sincere and almost a bit more wholesome. It was a great conversation. I love getting to talk to John Cochran about survivor reality TV, what it says about our politics. So here's my conversation with John Cochran. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So you hold this historic place in survivor lore because you're on two seasons. And in your first season, you were kind of put upon. You were, I think buffeted by events. You tried to make the best of it. You got a lot of shit from people on your tribe. And then you come back three seasons later and you have one of the greatest runs in survivor history. Do you agree with that? I mean, that's a very kind mythological way of putting it. I felt the first time that I was kind of, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that people were. I was, I went in with so much insecurity that it was kind of the fact that people didn't respond well to me. I can also kind of blame myself. See, I thought you might say something like that. So let's, I want to get into this. So just. Okay, sorry. No, no, no, you see, you're already apologizing. Don't apologize. I want to talk about your evolution between the two seasons because I do think there's something about what happened to you that speaks to something larger about reality television. But for people that aren't familiar, you just, in what is your story of what happened the first time you were on survivor? So the first time, I mean, I, I could went on to the show during an era of the show and it was a rise to, to a rise of the refer to as being populated by actors, a lot of models and actors on the show that hadn't necessarily seen survivor before weren't super passionate about it. Whereas I'd been this big, nutty, super fan that wrote a paper about it in law school and used to hand out newsletters and, um, or memorabilia to school. So when I got to the island, I think I had all this theoretical knowledge of what I was supposed to do. Um, but disregard the fact that it's fundamentally a social experience. And if the people that I'm with don't respond well to me and I don't respond well to them, that all the knowledge about what day to play an idol, when a merge is going to happen, it means nothing if they don't want to sit and just have a conversation with you. So I think that first time, sorry, I'm going on tilling and coming off. You're not going on too long. Um, we had the tribe, our tribe captain was returning players on each team and our captain, my captain was Ozzy, um, who's this physical beast, maybe the best challenge competitive games ever seen. He can climb coconut trees, effortlessly, can dive into the ocean with a sphere and a spear and come up with fish. Um, but I think by having him be the tribe captain, that kind of set the value system for the group. And so it's like, if you're on the Ozzy tribe, you better be good at challenges. You better be kind of like a cool social person. And I didn't fit into that pocket. I was kind of the nervous guy that's like, I didn't want to take off my shirt. The first, like the first moment on the, uh, first episode, Ozzy was like, Hey, let's all get in our underwear and go into the ocean and bond. And I, I had watched the show before I felt like there was like, at least an hour or you're standing around the beach talking to each other and collecting wood. This is like, no, immediately getting your underwear and go into the ocean. And so that was like, just initially, I don't want to take all my shirt right away. So this, and I think that probably was not the best introduction to my try mates were all having fun in the ocean, making the spectacle of myself over my discomfort. Um, and then just it progressed. I was not super well integrated in my tribe. And then there came a point around halfway through the season when there's a merge. And I was getting votes at like every single tribal council, which is even though when you're watching the show, you're like, Oh, that was last week's episode. But when you're out there, it's like, Oh, no, that was like last night. And I just had to go to bed with these people that like just voted me off. And those things accumulate. So that by the time the merge arrived, there was a part of me that's like, I should just jump to the other side. Why am I sticking with this team that keeps trying to vote me off and convincing Ozzy to go home or stay instead of me? I don't know. So I jumped sides. And if you're an Ozzy fan at home, that was like a very disappointing moment for the season because it kind of put a, you know, blow up his plans. And I don't know that I pretty quickly got voted off after flipping. It didn't work out for me strategically. I didn't integrate into the new tribe as well as I was hoping I would. It was a very religious. It was an unusual group of players that I think historically there hasn't been that tight net of a group. I feel like usually you'd be able to find the people on the bottom of the peck and order and maybe find some fluidity there. But it was really this impenetrable group. And I just got kicked off a couple of weeks after flipping. So I would like to show the picture of you. Once you did take your shirt off, I think this captures what happened to you in that season kind of metaphorically. Can we show that picture? That's the second time actually. Is that from the second season? The sunburn was the second season. Oh my God. That's your second run of it. Well, I actually think it applies better to what happened to your first season. God damn it. What the fuck? You this is your second season. This happened to you. What happened? Why did you put sunscreen on? What was going on in your mind? Your smart guy. What the fuck was this? This is so bad. I thought I was just about to have an encouraging speech. So, uh, well, I get very, very used them. A red headed guy. I'm very vulnerable. And there is sunscreen available off-cam. So I can't blame the show and say we didn't have access to it. The problem is that the first, we got, this is like the first episode of my second season. Right when you arrive on camp, we went to a water wrestling challenge. So all the sunscreens I had on me washed off immediately because we were fighting around in the ocean. And then they did this very scenic, like pirate ship ride to camp that didn't even make the episode. We just sat in the ocean for like three hours, waiting for helicopters to come film us. And it was during that time where for continuity purposes, I was like, oh, I should probably just keep on my sweater vest. So, but I should just put on all my shirts and covered my skin. But then I got back and I had an inverted sweater vest of, you know, very pale sweater vest shape on my chest and then read everywhere else. The weird thing is that kind of, at the time, I was like, oh, I'm going to be medically evacuated because I brought in doctors and everything and my, who's that bad? Yeah, my feet got too swollen to wear shoes. So I do wear Brenda's flip flops because they were the only open-footed footwear available. I was kind of convincing myself, like, maybe this will be funny because I was already like into, like, thing like I'm going home. This is at least an anecdote, like the nerdy sunburn guy got medically evacuated for it. But it really, I think strategically was maybe helpful. Not that I was already like a threat coming in, but it definitely neutralized any threatening qualities of me. I was like, oh, there's the guy that I was not even allowed to leave the shelter for a couple of days because they didn't want me and the sun. So, and those are critical days at the beginning of the season where everyone's kind of coupling off. But let's say that maybe it strategically worked out in the long run, even though physically is very painful. Because you didn't seem like a threat at the beginning of that season. Yeah, it's a wounded bird kind of. So, back to the season with where you're first season. So, I want to try to get at this because which is... You talk about how, oh, you know, you didn't really gel with your tribe at first, and then you flipped sides because they were... You never really felt like you belonged in that group and you'd been getting votes. It was much worse than that. They were incredibly hostile to you. In a way that was not strategic, they seemed to just viscerally dislike you. Yeah, after I flipping, definitely. I mean, there was like a big reaction to me after flipping where they were yelling at me. And, yeah, there's like... They even showed you an M.E. is like the most outrageous moments in reality of the year. It was just a night vision footage of me being called disgusting, like a little like clip reel. But before that, it was more... I think it was where I was very... And during that era of the show, tribal strength and performance and challenges was a huge priority. I would get so nervous in these competitions that would come back and be apologizing. I'm sorry, I got nervous there. And I think that just added to my reputations the guy that like if we lose, it's his fault. So there's probably just... And if Ozzy's your captain, he's like all about challenge performance. I think it trickled down. Yeah, you're still blaming yourself for it. So I... They didn't like you. And that's a flaw. Like you have great qualities, right? And so they're not liking you as not a reflection on you or though in some sense, of course it has to be, but it's also a reflection on them, right? Because you come back and win the next time you're on the show. So clearly that was in you. They didn't like you because you're a, you know, a smart, anxious Jewish guy. And like, right? I mean, part of this is on them. I mean, part of it would be the qualities that go along with that. We're not qualities that they appreciate it. And then generally when you're trying to live on an island and there's limited resources and there's lots of stress and physical reliance, like probably the anxious guy that can't do anything physical that's mainly there to be like, maybe there's going to be an endurance challenge next, like isn't that helpful? Because that was my main contribution was like trying to decode Tremail, which, I don't know, didn't tear me that much to them. You're still doing it. I think... Also, I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, it's ancient history with them and we're all kind of on good terms. And like, why don't you care about that? I look, I'm sure that you have, you're relate. This is a lot, how many years ago was your first 14 years ago? There's 14 years ago. This is not a judgment of where they came and how you think of them. Now, I think it's okay to, while acknowledging that these are full-fledged, human complicated human beings that you've, you're relate, you've talked about it since you've evolved. I want to talk about what happened while you were there. Because in watching it, there is a way in which you were isolated from the very beginning that felt like, yes, it didn't feel like it was part of the game. It didn't feel like they were casting you out strategically. It felt like you were, it felt like high school. And it did feel like bullying, even before you flipped. And I wonder if you, you've been reluctant to acknowledge that in the past, but like, you were bullied before you flipped. There was definitely a lot of condescension. There was one thing that was very unpleasant where I'm a big animal guy and they showed this in the extra clip scene. I didn't want to, I didn't want to deal with the chicken having its head caught off. But like, Ozzy was very insistent that I had the whole chicken while the head was cut off because it would be like some growth experience for me. And then like, I'm holding it and then they cut the head off and I don't, I'm just keeping, I'm still holding it because I don't, like, I don't know what to do in that case. It's frat-flapping around like as it does. And they started, like, Ozzy and the guys were laughing at me. They said it looked like I was having sex with the dead chicken because I didn't want to let go of it because I was afraid it was going to happen. And it's like, it was already a slightly upsetting experience than to have it. That was the one thing I was like, oh, that's like, I don't feel too bad if I write down somebody's name tonight. But bullying is, it's tough to say, I'm just looking to that because I don't know. It's such a contrived environment that it's like, usually in every day life, it's not, I'm going to, you don't get to just eliminate someone. So like bullying, not bullying, but like exclusions built into the game. It's a game of musical chairs and can you sit with us and can you not? So like, the fact that I was one of the people that didn't have a seat for a while, I can't completely blame them. I don't know, which is in a person. I was like, I said that maybe we got oral herpes from one of the challenges that we did. Like that was probably a weird thing to say that turned some people off. Well, yeah, that's a great example. So you like made a joke. That was a joke that we made that was a very kind of the, I like, I remember that moment being, oh my god, that's like, that's the kind of joke that I would make because it's like a little bit like outrageous and you're saying something that's like about something gross, we're going to actually sit attention diffusing kind of thing. Right. Right. And it is received so poorly by this group of people that don't appreciate your humor. They're like, that's a, that's their mistake, right? To not appreciate that. Right. Do you see it that way? Like, you don't, but this is what I'm saying. Like, this is what's so interesting about how you talk about this, which is like, these people were assholes to you from the jump. They were condescending. They were dismissive of you. They didn't like you personally. They, it was a very high school thing. I do think that part of it, I'm part of it is that you are like, there's a ways in which people brought like a kind of stereotype about Jews to this. I'm sorry, but that is present. And like, I want you to acknowledge that like, that's something that they were doing, not something you were doing. No, for sure. I agree that there was like, I was not entirely to blame for every dynamic I had out there. I can't read their minds about what the, what their motives were. I'm not saying motives and I'm not, and I'm not implying. I'm not, I have no idea what their mentality was. I'm saying that as someone who watched it, what I observed was you were the Jewish person applying to the Wast country club is what it like seemed like. And they were like, he just doesn't fit in. I definitely felt like I didn't fit in. I mean, that was my first thing I said. It was at the 902 on O'Tribe when I was one of the zeroes on it. And it felt like that was maybe even a deliberate casting thing of like, if you looked at the line of a people, it looked like Melrose Place. And then I'm, you know, some big bang theory or something. It felt like, oh, let's see how this guy functions in this. But maybe that's me giving myself too much credit. I don't, maybe they were not focused on that. But sorry, what was the question? It's that like they were, they were bullying you. And for over and over and it was nothing that you did wrong. It was, they kept voting for me. It's hard to say that it was bull. It was just, we didn't, I mean, people say the second time that I was slightly bullish, I made fun of people in some of the interviews and I feel certain level of guilt over that. I mean, I got, I know I'm not so supportive. I know it's I, but so I'll let it go. I'm happy to unpack it with you. Here's the thing that I, like when I remember watching this I remember thinking God, what a sad, what a sad way in which to see Aussie was one of the great players of beloved figure. He's an asshole to you and to, like he, there's a cockiness and an arrogance and a mean spiritiness to how you are treated. That is not part of the game. They could have been very kind to you and voted you off. Like you were mistreated in a way that is a strategic and like this is a game and always fair in the game. And my, my view of it has always been that like lying, backstabbing, all of that completely justified and completely moral. Like people, and this has, I think in the, in the years since you played, like I think there's been an ethical evolution in survivor, which is people used to bring their outside morals into it. But those outside morals are part of a plus, like a positive some game, where cooperation leads to a better world. But in this game, cooperate, conflict is only one prize, right? And so you don't have to bring those, those ethical questions, I think you can put aside and say it's all part of the game. But that is up until someone is inside of the game, needlessly cruel or mean spirited in a way that is not strategic or purposeful or part of the game. I think Russell would do that at times as one of the great villains. But I think in this season, like there is a hostility and a meanness towards you that just felt gratuitous and almost fun for the people that weren't you. Yeah. The odds of this, there was a certain level of self-entilement, it was this third time playing. So it's like, why isn't everyone listening to me? Like of course I'm going to be the person that everyone defers too. So the fact that I was kind of, anyone that didn't fall into line, I think he was probably, he was not going to be on the greatest terms with. I don't know. I don't know. But I think that's also, that's the, I was on season 23 and 26, people now refer to that as the dark ages of the show. It was like a different mentality. There's been a discourse online about villains and whether that's something we went on the show. I think then people more leaned into slightly more conflict and combustibility because that was what people liked on reality TV, whereas now that's not sustainable with reality, or with social media quite as much. So I think, I mean, I've met people from the New Year. I don't know if they're necessarily all as equally compassionate to each other. I think it's just kind of like the, the show is emphasizing that it's still a game of like, we don't want you here anymore. And even though we've been living together, you're gone. And that hurts regardless. We're going to hold there for a second when we're right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It Or Leave It coming up. Love It Or Leave It is brought to you by Aura Frames. What's your favorite holiday tradition? Who started it? How long has it been going? Do you have photos of it? Uh, I have a holiday tradition for you. It involved three wise men heading towards Bethlehem. And no, there are no photos. Who started it? 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And they're just kind of all the, all the memories are in there. I take a picture. It's on my phone and then I go to the Aura app. And I'm just like, boom, suddenly they got it on their frame. They love it. Yeah, there's Obama on the stage, you know, for limited time, visit Aura frames.com, get $45 off or as best selling Carver Matt frames, name number one by wire cutter. Using promo code, love it. A checkout. That's a you are a frames.com promo code. Love it. This exclusive black Friday cyber Monday deal is the best of the year. So order now before it ends, support this show and mention us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. What's interesting is you flip drives. You just abandoned this team, which was a great decision. Probably it was hard to imagine it working out to you winning once you've done that. But like, of course, it like, I think this gets at to me why I'm like interested in this a little bit because so they're treating you like dog shit. You flip on them. They are. They're treating you like shit. They're voting for you. You flip on them. They are so angry at you in a way that is not justified, right? And also not, they're not thoughtful at all about it. They are lashing out at you as if it isn't a game and as if they, as if the way they were treating you didn't happen. That to me is what I find so galling about it. Some quotes about who quotes about what is said about you after. That's how a weener plays. You're a piece of shit coward. You're a poor excuse for a man. Don't fucking talk to me ever again. It's Aussie. Some of you are a gym, I think. Oh no, this one's gym. You're a fucking piece of shit nerd. You realize Keith and I saved you three times and this is what you fucking do. You discussed me. You're a rat. No, you weren't. No, you weren't. You weren't. That is not true, right? Right. Right. I wasn't a rat. I mean, I think they're frustrated feeling like their game was over at that point. And yeah, that was the, that was the, that was the low point of the entire thing. I was legitimately like kind of freaked out and it was like pitch black outside. So I was just like these screaming voices out even after a math and tribal council. And you have to go to bed. You have to like lie down on the ground with these people and ostensibly function in this little society again. No, I wasn't a rat. I get a lot of rat. I feel like people, if you're a little scrawny got, there's certain lingo that I feel like rat, I would get a lot online. I still get, I still get messages about like a ugly rat coward, poor, excuse of a man thing. So those, those, those things have stuck around. But I think people are just discovering that seasons over the pandemic and beyond. So it's always a little batch of people like, siding with these bullies. Yeah, they love Aussies. What the sense I get is that it's just like, you're watching the show and you want Aussie to do well. And if this little guy that's not going to the challenge, just screws him over, then you ruin the season for me. I'm saying that's a rational response. But I feel like that's, and I'm actually on okay terms of Aussies. That's also part of my reluctance with it. Like I don't have any ill will towards any of these people. And I just want to say that I'm pushing on that. You're not bringing, I'm, you're not revisiting this. I'm revisiting this because I'm interested in it that you may be on good terms with these people, but this is what, what to play. That was a super upset thing. That was like, yeah. And I like, and I'm not, again, I'm not putting this on anyone individually and I'm not suggesting that I know anyone's motivations. I just, I, because I, I consumed a bunch of these mids, these seasons from the middle run of the show at once. And there is something that happens with a certain kind of smart, nerdy player, often a Jewish player, which is that they are scheming. They like this happens to penner. Kind of. It's the big one. This happens to a number of like Jewish smart players that all of a sudden there's just this, oh, you know, you can't trust him. You know, they're schemers. Yeah. Kind of a rat. I mean, my whole demeanor might be contributing to that beyond just the fact that my mom's Jewish. I mean, like, I'm like a nervous guy that's like hunched over and I don't know. I think I, my, I don't know why I'm turning into this. Like this is self-addedation thing. But you're, you know, this is what I like. Okay. So this is how you, I'm like bringing about this is like interesting to me because I feel like this is part of your, so, so this is, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're closing in. You're kind of now you're back to now we're in the mentality of season 23. You're apologizing for apologizing for apologizing. Okay. Then you come back, right? You do get destroyed by the sun within minutes of arriving on the beach, which I think is a nadir in that season for you because you then go on one of the best runs in survivor ever. You dominated that season. It's a perfect season, right? You didn't receive a single vote. Is that right? Yeah. One of two people. That's right. So what changed? Um, well, it's just, it was only the next summer. So it wasn't so like even those three seasons apart is literally a few months after the season stopped filming. So I was like, I didn't undergo a huge personal transformation or certainly physical transformation. Um, the big things like the people you get put with it. I mean, that determines really everything. Yeah. And it's not the most glamorous answer, but like there's a lot of variability in how you perform based on what group you're put with. I also think going back, there's a huge different mentality shift. I was so nervous the first time, just like, it's very vulnerable. I was just a student that had very little exposure to any outdoorsy stuff or socializing. And then suddenly there's a camera crew and you're there's a Miss America runner up and a retired cop and you're on a bamboo shelter together and just like very overwhelming. Um, where's the second time a lot of that luster kind of has gone. You know, more just like, I want to win. I didn't just want to be a big character. I was like, I want to play the game that I'd loved a long time. And then just the people are more receptive to me. I had several people from my first season on there. And then just like it's a survivor social circle. I met, you know, Andrea was somebody that I was friendly with. Um, but also nice just not like some mix of people, I think was better. Like that first time just felt like a very homogenous tribe that I was put in. And I was kind of wanted a group of misfits that I can kind of blend in and out. If I like that, it's a big tribe. It was 10 people. I know you had a six person tribe. I don't, I need the big tribe to be able to kind of like have some hiding room. I feel like you and I had a similar early experience. Like you were able to survive early because it's bigger tribes. And I like, there was just nowhere for me to go. And I like, I don't, the group was not hostile at all, but they were, I was very different from my group. And there was just very little space, especially once there had been sort of the, uh, kind of, what, uh, especially once there had been the kind of like crazy moment and the breakdown and sort of things sort of, I sort of lost control very quickly. But I did feel the same kind of feeling of like, I don't know. There's something about being an anxious, smart person that once the, once this, once the avalanche starts, you know, you're kind of, you're just sort of a passenger of like being unable to kind of contain it and kind of do breezy. You don't do, you like, it's hard to, once you feel, I feel like that's, I think something that we have in common because I think once you felt like you were losing them, you go into this kind of spiraling. Yeah. It's interesting. So you think the difference between the first season, the season in which you were kind of maligned and called a rat and disgusting and the season where you won the main difference given that it was only a summer later has nothing to do with you, that it was the mix of people and an attitude shift. I mean, I was definitely, I think it hardens you like being on these shows. You get a lot of, I was very nervous. The first time I had help people were going to respond to me, just being, making fun of what I look like or what I sound like and you get so, it's like a focus group testing on who you are as a person when I'm on these shows and get tons of feedback and have to figure out which ones to incorporate and which ones to ignore. Um, but it does kind of give you thicker skin. So I think the second time I was slightly, I had a little bit of a shield of armor that, um, and I'll be more confidence. Just like not the uncertainty is the scariest part. I feel like the first time when you're flying out there and you don't know who you're going to be with, you go through the casting process for the returning player seasons. You see who's going to be there. So it's already a slightly more comfortable thing. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I did better in challenges for instance, the second time, which like, I did. But I think that was just a comfort level thing as opposed to like, I, I didn't practice balancing or lifting things or, I mean, I want to grow food eating challenge and stuff. But it was more about just being calm with the circumstances. Um, I wish I had a better like transformation explanation, but I think it was more the people and, um, being open and meeting them. I think the first one was also kind of like trying to shoehorn my strategies into other people's polls, whereas it's like you have to find, um, yeah, to find common ground and maybe, you know, give it a little bit if you want to get something. Yeah, I think like, now you were a super fan at a time when that really wasn't, part of the show. Like what like you were on with people that were just doing it and figuring out as they went, but you had come with a lot of plans, but you really never got to put them into fruition at all. It wasn't like you tried your various ideas of which survive could be you, like kind of, you took your first punch and then that was out the window. You were just trying to hang on. And then very quickly, I was like the alter. Once you become the other option for who to vote off at every tribal council, it's hard to kind of like cement yourself as a serious strategic source of information. Because it's just like, oh, we'll say it. We'll tell so and so that we're voting for you. But it's actually going to be so and so. But you never do that to the person that you actually like respect their place in the game because if that person plays an idol, then the person that they're saying, I don't know, it was just, it was an insecure mind frame. I was in the whole time. So yeah, I wasn't, there's never anything. I was like, here's what we're doing next tribal council. I give you the idol you vote for so and so and magic's going to happen. Watch the fireworks. It was like, just me going like, it's not going to be me this week. Quite right. Please don't vote for me. Like don't vote for me, um, which when I got home was, I mean, I was a little bit of, uh, I, I took a semester off from law school because I was like very nervous about watching that show. I was kind of dreading how it was going to come across. And how do you feel watching it? I did not, I don't like watching it. Like the fun part is being on it. Like the fun, like even though even the misery, it's the, it's the deprivation you're signing up for and it's testing your limits afterwards. It's no longer your story and it's, um, even though I love all the production, they do it very faithfully and accurately. But it's just like hearing your voice or an answering machine, but it's like way worse because you know, 10 million people are hearing that voice and they answer the machine and they can say what they think about you. And it's also, there's, you're, you're having bathed in a month and you're wearing a little outfit that they told you to wear with a red sweater vest and a pink button down shirt. And it's like everything was just, um, I didn't really do viewing parties that season because I was like, this is just going to be a source of stress more than I think. I would, I would feel sick on Wednesday nights and then would stay up all night just reading every single, the next day I would just be reading every single comment on every website. I felt, uh, I really wasn't thinking about what it would be like to air when I went, which I think this is the right thing to do. I was just thinking about, and I, I had the same, like having watched a lot of reality television of all kinds. My general feeling is that there is an effect to how survivor is made that actually doesn't apply to basically any other reality show. And so I was very comfortable kind of pushing my chips forward and letting that edit fall where I'm just sort of trusting the, the ledger of it to be fair. But then I remember the dread. Well, first of all, of course, because I knew I was going to be voted out, uh, but the, the dread of watching it. I was like, you know what? Given how, how nervous this feeling is, I would rather have gone home first than third, fourth or fifth, um, though, of course, I would have rather gone home much later to do. Do you think I should do it again? Do you think that I, do you, look, you, you and I, you made it further in your, see, your first out, first season through. But I think the thrust of the experience, you, like, I think that your first season confirmed some of your fears about how you would be received. 100% and I, and I feel like that isn't exactly true for me other than just going home first, which is an interesting worst case scenario. But I feel like I never really got, like I never really got purchased. Like I told Jeff when I met Jeff, I'm either going to go home, I'm going to make it all the way. I'm going to go home first and I just sort of caught the bad steer. But do you think I should do it again? Do you want to do it again? I don't know. What do you think? Do you think I should do it again? I think you have to want to do, I think it's something you don't want to do. It's going to end up being a negative experience because it's like such an intense thing. But if you want to do it, also you have only upside, it's going to go better this next time. But I do yours. Well, there's, you know, there's Francesca. No, and I was unfortunately part of that. I'm not proud of that. What was that like, by the way? God, this is like stretching of all these painful memories. Painful. No, that one's like not a fun one because I was a kind of, I was friendly with her that there's a lot of things. I thought this woman Jane was going to be out there from Nicaragua. And then it being dawn was going to be my closest ally. I thought we were going to vote of Jane first because I was like, oh, I don't think I don't know if people know her. I don't know. Then it being dawn out there was my closest ally. And the vote ended up coming down to Francesco versus Andrea. Who looked at two of those actually, friendliest with, it was a kind of the worst case scenario for a first vote out for me. But I was closer with Andrea and I don't know. I think they had this built intention between Philip and Francesco, which they, you know, that was probably what they were hoping for some sort of not just, not just exactly what happened to some kind of rekindling that that feud. But that was not fun. It's not like it's not fun. It's like a painful game where you like, it's a fun TV show. When you're out there, you feel a lot of guilt because you realize, oh, I'm going to see this person afterwards and we're going to be talking and we have mutual friends. And that's that's the, that's part of the reason I don't go back because it's like, you heard a lot of people's feelings and you can't control how you come across. And I don't know. I feel guilty about it. I'm like, even though things turned out well and I won, doesn't say it's in a company by some like little elements of, I wish things had been different or, but yeah. We're going to a quick break. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It Or Leave It coming up. Love Or Leave It is brought to you by Prolon. Are you considering changing up your health routine? Do you find yourself saying I want to lose weight or I want to be healthier, but nothing really sticks? Then you need Prolon's five day fasting mimicking diet program. After just five days, you'll feel lighter, more energized and back on track. And now they've up there game with next gen. Backing the same science back benefits into a cleaner, more convenient and taste-year format, supporting fat, focus, weight loss and lean muscle protection, no injection required. Prolon is a plan-based nutrition program featuring soup snacks and beverages. 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What's interesting is you were a person who understood and really had paid attention to the survivor. I think one of if not the first player to really bring that fan energy now, that's a big part of what survivor has become. It's the evolution and a lot of reality shows have now gone. This is true of competition shows and it's also true of real housewives that the first couple seasons, these are people trying to be themselves or play the game, whatever that means. And then as you get further along, people come on the show, having become fans of the show, and that changes the show. And I'm curious what that's been like for you to watch as more and more people come to it with a similar knowledge that you had. I think it's fun to watch. Just even having met the most recent cast, I feel like I get along with them or it's like, oh, everyone's very nice and compassionate and smart. I mean, I understand there's some frustration like, well, you want more people that don't know the games. There's a mix of people that are inept versus strong players. But I think that if you got that in reality, it might be, I watch a lot of Big Brother 2 and there are frequently people in Big Brother that have no idea what it's going on. It's a greater source of frustration than entertainment to watch on the show. So I kind of like having a lot of people that know what's going on. The game's gotten so much more complex now that I feel like you almost kind of have to have people that are able to roll with the punches and do the different twists and everything. But I enjoy it. I mean, the show's had to evolve. I rewatch some of the early, I rewatched Marquesis over the pandemic. It was a super fun season, but I don't think if it aired now that it would capture the viewers in the same way. Yeah, there are a lot of people that are critical of the new seasons of Survivor because of all the kind of the more complex rules around idols and challenges and immunity. But they are kind of will, they're kind of forgetting that some of the early seasons of Survivor, they're quite boring because a lot of it was foregone, they were trying to generate trauma, but there was foregone conclusions. I mean, there were seasons like before idols. I mean, it was just sort of like, and just you're just sort of, it's more about the survival and the social dynamic, but often that was predictable. And so this does add a level of kind of intrigue and complexity and change that I do think is good for the game. But then I do think it's harder for players. I think I, like, I think I'm constitutionally more kind of suited to a slower version of the game. Now, I feel the 20, I'm curious what you felt, but like the 39 days set up, the one big difference, I feel like as we have these off days where nothing happens, like usually the busy days you have a challenge or maybe you have a tribal council and you have to be transported there and you have to wait around a little bit and there's lots of activity and it feels going on a field trip, but the days where you have nothing going on and you don't even get told nothing's going on. You're kind of like waiting to find out maybe we're going to get tree mail. Maybe this is an exciting day and then gradually the realization sets in like, oh no, I'm just stuck with these people sitting around and not eating for another 24 hours. Those days actually, if there's anything that was good at survival, I think it was actually probably good at those days because it's like I wasn't getting into fights and I was kind of an easy low-key presence that if other people were having tension, they might decompress with me afterwards. I don't function. I don't operate well in the high activity days where it's like I grab you in the woods. This is what we're going to do. That's kind of going to my shell and that coupled with the smaller tribes, I feel like I would struggle. I would have a harder time with the new setup. That's not to say I don't like it, but it's definitely a different game. The small tribes in particular, imagine if you had three or four other people on your tribe would have been like a completely different experience. Well, it was also, I think with six, there's only so many combinations and once it was two to two, you very quickly run out of room to operate. My only, yeah, I mean, just there was no, because as you know, right before a tribal council, there's a ton of machinations and talking and groups forming and they can't show all that, but man, I was hustling to try to put something together. My only regret of the whole thing is because I was doing the math in my head before the vote, which is I was like, I think I got like a, I thought my chances of making it out of the vote were roughly the same as the chances of rolling a die. I thought it was roughly the same and I thought, all right, should I just say fuck it and do the shot in the dark? But then I really had like, well, if I, but if I spend this vote on the shot in the dark and that's what sends me home, it's sort of tough, it was a tough call. I kind of understand the first tribal not wanting to use the shot in the dark, but I do like that twist. That's one of the new era twists that I do like as a little escape hatch and creates a bunch of certain, you can't tell people that you're gonna, like, yeah, of course, it's blind sides. Yeah, I think it's much rougher for the player mentality, but I think it's probably ultimately good for the game. So one thing that's also happened is survivor has moved away from the villains. It's just, it's, and it's interesting to say, because I do think like having now spent time with a lot of the new era players myself, it does feel a lot of front of the classroom kids. And survivor used to be a lot more about the back of the classroom kids versus the front of the classroom kids. And you happen to be on a tribe with five back of the classroom kids, which really screwed you, but there's not the same amount of like bullying and harshness. But what's interesting about that is as survivor, I think, has become socially gentler and physically more kind of aggressive. Like our culture has become like kind of overrun by bullies. It feels as though you're, you know, in your season, like, it feels as though your tribe ultimately wins in the culture fight. And I'm like wondering if, like, just sort of in a politics dominated by bullying, if you've like thought about how like your experience with survivor, what you, what you notice about in the commonalities with, with, with how bullying plays out in politics. That's interesting. I mean, I think that's interesting with the, like, the villain aspect of everything. So there used to be like explicit villains. They'd be burning socks or throwing out your food or saying really cruel things. But even though the show's not shifted, I think Jeff's even said, like, we're kind of stirring away from casting a villain since our priority anymore. Because of the cultural bullying and stuff, the public will identify a villain. They will create one. And the absence of an explicit one, they'll find the person that is, they don't like their voice enough or I watch Jeopardy a lot. People that are cruel to like how contestants hold the buzzers. Like, they'll find anything that they don't like. And that's enough of a justification for that to be the person that they hate. Even this current season, I've seen people who say, like, all these people are mean. So if you watched reality TV from 20 years ago, this would not even be a blip on the like radar of bad behavior. But it's actually kind of full circle. But like season two, it's kind of going full circle with like Jerry Mathy. She's the original villainess of all time, but even looked at her sins that she criticized how rice was made and not got her boot off the stage of Madison Square Garden and made fun of an scary movie franchise. It's insane. It's insane. It's actually like, it's a good, like, if you go back and watch those seasons and the way that they were received, it actually speaks to how much the culture has shifted. You can't watch it through early 2000s, eyes because 20 years ago, there was such a hostility towards a woman like Jerry that like inside of the show, the edit presumes the audience is seeing what that like, can you believe this bit? And she didn't do anything. She didn't do anything. She's the sweetest, if you've ever noticed, so unbelievably kind and sweet. And the fact that she was the person that was like picked out as the first villain of reality TV. And it's even kind of like with Barbie. I feel like her reputations, like in the old days, she was really torn apart. And you can see there's been a shift in that conversation about it now that's actually a celebrated personality instead of like, we hate the strong woman that's strategizing. Yeah, well, like, like, I mean, we talked to Parvati about that. And she kind of ultimately embraces this kind of villain archetype that she's meant to be playing. And she just continues doing it. Now it becomes beloved. But so there's the ways in which people that weren't villains were treated as such because they were just being tough and not, I don't know, handsome guys basically. But then at the same time, you have the ways in which reality TV villains, politicians have learned from reality TV villains and now bring that energy to politics. And I'm just wondering if when you watch some of the ways in which Trump bullies people, the ways in which in Congress, you have these sort of brawls and committee hearings. If it doesn't feel a little bit like they're playing kind of, I don't know, old school survivors. I think that you'll quen the survivor winner from Cook Islands. I was a legal internal a million years ago at the FCC. And I before I went on survivor, I talked to him about the, you know, what I should be expecting. And one thing he talked about as a piece of advice was like, there're going to be times when you might be in an alliance. I don't know if not even happened in the first time, but he's like, you might be in an alliance and you're going to be like a group of people sitting over here and there's going to be another alliance sitting like 15 feet away. He's like, don't, he's like, allow yourself to be the guy that's capable of going back and forth between the groups, like communicate with the other because there's a tendency. And I experienced and I participated in it. You literally be sitting 15 feet away, but like you'd be assuming the worst about that other group. Even though I'm sure their conversation actually probably wasn't that different from yours. You're probably talking about food you miss from home. Just because you were signed different color buffs on day one, it's like, oh, I hate that person. I don't want to, I want them out if you are. I don't want to see their face. But you was like, you know, given the unpredictabilities of the game, I'm kind of paraphrasing what I said, but like giving them the unpredictability of the game. There might be a time when it swaps around. The person you're sitting 15 feet away from might be able to be your ally. You might have to play an idol with them. You might have to coordinate a vote with them. So let's just say that the bullying of like the other eyes and I think is something that I've noticed. It's like the lack of communication makes it very easy to project the most monstrous version of your opponent onto them. And then that's what you're responding to. And then any sort of discursus is impossible. So that then you can just flip try. That is just like that's when you have a very non-fluid season of survivor. I think that's the old era. It's like blue states and red blue buffs and red buffs. It's no, there's no intermingling. Whereas now it's voting blocks. And if there's a shuffle and I think that's a healthy thing. But I guess I kind of didn't completely answer your question about villains. But just though, I think one of the things is just not the idea of the team's sportification of politics is like created villains because you want to root against somebody. Even though that's not what we're, you know, why is that what we're doing? Yeah, there's no blue. I think there's a, I mean, you're instinct when people were kind of isolating you is to be self-deprecating, right? Almost to like, if someone throws a punchy, you kind of like grab the fist and kind of pull it in. And that didn't seem to work. And I'm wondering, like in between your two seasons, like, I did you find yourself trying to avoid doing the self-deprecating thing because it just doesn't work or what? It's a compulsion. Like, it's not me being like this will be an endearing thing right now. If I like say something embarrassing and make a spectacle of how bad I am at something, that's just like a lot lifelong if you get bullied and you want to make fun of yourself before anybody else has a chance to say the thing. And I'm way better at it than you are. So just listen to me. But I definitely, the second time there was it, it sounds just like an attention. It's like, what, nobody wants to know what you're talking about. Everyone's like the star of the season out there. Everyone wants to be this is their story. I'm going to be getting all the great confessional. So when you have one guy that's like, oh, look, I can't open a Coke and I can somebody help me with a suntan lotion. It's like, all right, we're all out here. Why are you prioritizing? We're all uncomfortable. We're all feeling discomfort. And yeah, just prioritizing other people. I mean, because that's like, you're still, I was still uncomfortable and I was still freaked out, but just not, I would save it for the confessional, honestly. Like, that's kind of the therapy session that you get where you don't have to, we can be super vulnerable. And there's isn't that subtext of deception or trying to woo people. Like, there is whenever you're around camp. So that's when I would, you know, really, if I would be in self-deprecating, but it wasn't a different thing. It's like, it's honestly, even during this interview, like, when I do it, I'm not like, oh, this is going to be a little funny thing or something that's going to make people, it's like, oh, I'll listen back to this and I'll be mortified. I'm sure. It's so exciting to me. It is just honestly, it is so rare to me to be in a conversation where someone is more this way than I am. It's actually, like, I'm just sitting here like, I mean, this is extraordinary. Like, this is the thing, just see someone take what I do to its logical conclusion. It's so exciting. And it is charming. That's why, I mean, you did win your season because you have charisma, you have charm, right? You know that. You can compliment yourself ever. I don't know because of self-deprecating stuff. No, I know I'm saying it was because of the good qualities you don't. I don't know what the opposite of self-depragging, I suppose. You know, brag about it. You're a very smart, charming, funny person. Thank you. I don't seek out social stuff, but I get along with people pretty well. That was the kind of why I applied for the show. I'm kind of a shudden. I almost never hang out with people. But even in school, I always feel like, get along with people from different social groups, like the jocks or the valley girls, and I wasn't valley girls, but the nerds. So, even though I wasn't their favorite person, you don't have to be anyone's favorite person, just like something that they like getting along with. Usually, vote off the favorite person because they're a threat to win. So, just kind of being like an even-killed person that isn't a source of drama. I thought I did a good job at Final Tribal Council. That's the one thing where I do pat myself on the back. You crash, yeah. So, I had a lot of pressure on myself because of law school and stuff. But, I don't know. What was the call? Just how did I transfer? I don't even remember what the question was. I was saying that I was better this second time. Thank you. Do you notice survivor when you watch the ways in which politics has become a lot more personality driven and there is a lot more kind of survivor-like qualities to the way people treat politics now. I'm wondering if you ever watching a debate, a campaign, and think, man, this reminds me of what it was like when I was on survivor. I mean, you can't help watch the big primaries with all the people trying to vie for votes and the gradual elimination. It's very reality. TV coded. And the best presidential debates are like the best Final Tribal councils. And I feel- and I listen to the podcast with Parvati and she comment on authenticity, I think, being one of the core. I think that's consistent across reality TV and politics. The people that- at least they're able to put on the illusion of authenticity will be a lot more effective than people that don't. And self-awareness, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and the question was, when I see politics, gosh, I mean, the reality- the fact that our presence at reality TV for another Mark Burnett accolade, it's like it's an escapeable, it's a whole dialogue of good guys and bad guys and shut up. And I don't want to talk- it's- it's an escapeable. I don't know. I don't know if it's a good thing, honestly. I think it's a terrible thing. Yeah. It's a very reductive thing that like in everyday life there aren't villains and heroes. It's- those are labels that reality TV puts on them, but those labels have kind of crossed out into politics and flatten people into these identities, just like a reality TV, yet it can kind of make you be like, oh, I'm just the nerd that's a self-deprecating stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It's a bleak thing. I definitely do watch- I- I- I was deal-quann, I'd ask him whether he would consider politics, because he was watching him, I was like, oh, he's a smart guy. He'd worked for Senator Lieberman and he'd put Google in the kins, and it was incredible back on Yale and Stanford. But he said that he wouldn't- he said he wouldn't be able to- his personality type isn't good for governing or- or no, he'd be good at governing but not campaigning. But just like it's a completely different skill set. I think so maybe the reality TV skill set is better for campaigning. Yeah, maybe so. This is the TV show aspect of- but I don't know. It's interesting, because you all- you all is one of the greatest players and similar, I think, similar to you in a sense of being like strategic very intelligent. But I wonder if you feel this too, that there is a kind of self-discipline around his own emotions that I think is sort of- not something either of us could replicate? Oh, no. I mean, I- I saw myself in certain aspects of him that he was like a bookish guy that clearly took this game very seriously, but no, he is like cool as a cucumber and can be very clinical with how he deals with game stuff, or as I'm an emotional, anxious mess. And if he is, he doesn't betray at least outwardly. And I think it's interesting. It's like a- I think it actually cut against in the second time. The first time I think it helped in the second time, I think there was more like emotional bonding over, you know, families, an edge of extinction, and he less- got into that. So, yeah, I just say I agree with you, I think. Yeah. You should talk to him, he's- I mean- We should talk to you all. I would like to talk to you all. He's very smart. We're going to do a quick break. We'll be right back. Love it or leave it. Brought to you by Blinds.com. You spent all that effort making your home feel like a winter wonderland from stringing lights to decorating every corner and setting the perfect vibe. But if those old blinds are throwing it all off, it may be time to do something about them. With Blinds.com, you can upgrade your window treatments and pull the whole look together before the holidays hit full swing Blinds.com. Called out the window treatment industry. Yeah, that's right. They clapped back for what it- for what it was outdated overpriced and built to serve sales people, not customers. So they flipped it. 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You're still getting feedback on your two seasons, like on social media all the time. I mean, multiple times a week. I don't want to make it sound like I'm constantly being flooded with stuff, but it's like every time I'll check that little hidden Instagram section, like the hidden DMs, it's like never a good thing. Yeah, don't go in there. And I got one recently. I don't actually don't want to give voice to the DMs, because I'm going to be like, oh, he read the specific one. It was a weird guy. He don't feed the trolls, but he gave it a guy here. They got you. There's some very specific ones. I mean, some of the generic ones that are like, you're an ugly cow. I do that to Aussie or to Riggsies and hate you, whichever. I've heard that so many times. It's a certain one. This sounded like somebody that knows me. Not the same. Let's get at that for a second. You're sick because it is the criticism that you agree with that, or like you can, that feels like something you'd say to yourself that hits the hardest. And I'm curious when you think about your experience on Survivor, like what is the self-criticism that still gets to you? Oh, so many things. I mean, like tons of things. I don't like that. I feel like I, especially the second time, the way you were describing the bullies the first time. And a small way, I feel like, did I turn into a bully the second time with when I was kind of mocking people in interviews? Part of that was like, it's a conversation with producers. You're trying to make them laugh. And that's where you've been. That's where I've been. And that's also like, I feel that's where that's where I'm getting put on the show for. Like, I'm not doing anything during challenges. That's particularly impressive. I'm not causing any blobs at camp. It's like, no, that's just where I clock in and I say my wacky things and I go back to camp and do nothing. But so I feel guilt about that just because I know, that's also my reluctance about commenting about like other players online because I know how unpleasant it is to be on the show. And so to contribute to use whatever little plat for my have to like add on to that and be like, oh, I hate this person or I'm not going to enjoy, or even just saying, I'm glad this person survived implies that you were happy. The other person got voted off. I get so in my head about that. So when I replaced stuff, I said on the show about being happy for voting somebody off or making fun of them. I feel because I just know that they're watching that episode with their family. Like it's easy when you're saying it on the island. It's like, okay, whatever caught in this moment. Then you wait a year. And it's like, oh, you get there, maybe doing a viewing party. And I was kind of a guy that was like a trustworthy narrator. So if I'm making fun of you, it's kind of the endorsement of the show saying it. You're the voice of the show. Yeah. So I feel guilt about that. I mean, I don't like what I look like. I mean, this is just general embarrassment of like appearance and demeanor. But it's just mainly the stuff saying about other people. I'm finally making someone of myself. I do it all the time. And I make fun of other people too. But I don't want to be, you know, I don't want it to be a public record that then identifies their experience. And then like they feel bad for a long time. Not saying that they feel bad. But this is the sort of thing that I worry about. But then that other Chris, like Christmas, there was a rigged season and stuff. I don't really get a lot of the Christians about my gameplay. I don't really care about saying like, I'm not a good winner. I'm a bottom tier winner and a bad season that nobody should watch. I don't know. I'm at peace with that. You said you don't want to do it again. You're kind of out. But like in having the two different experiences you've had on survivor and the two different ways it was received. Look, what did it teach you about what the audience appreciates or doesn't appreciate about competition? Like what did it show you about the way America views what happens when someone like you either does poorly or does well? Well, it spoke to like the different values. This is that people bring to the show when they're watching. I mean, even when you want me to people, some people watch just for the challenges. Like they fast forward through everything else, which is unfathomable to me. But so like, so if you prioritize that and you see me the first season and now I'm the reason we're losing challenges and I'm on a tribe with Ozzy. A lot of those people hate me and they'd come at me and they'd come at me like, oh, he loved you the second time. You started winning all these challenges. But like that's not even a thing I care about. That's like that's not a, I mean, it's a fun thing. It was a fun thing to win challenges. That's not my value system. I think a big thing, I mean, part of the touch on it, but I just think authenticity and vulnerability is like what people are looking for. You don't, you want, when things are going bad on the show, be vulnerable. But don't be saying, I'm going to figure this out. This is going to be great. I got it all covered. They went honesty. And if you're messing up, then being able to course correct is kind of like a thing that's, I don't know, people don't like the seasons, we just got locked into one thing. I don't know, but the motives, the incentives for the viewership are different from the players. Like the viewers want an exciting season of lots of blind sides and idols being played. People whispering during tribal council, which is not necessarily what makes for the most stable game. I don't know, I feel like I'm not giving a good answer to this, so I don't freaking out. And I spiral over this text my mom afterwards. Not that. Okay. She's actually once said, I have to link to this one and done them. Okay, we'll go, we'll, we'll get this episode to your mother. Okay. What I learned about what the viewers like out of this, I don't know, well, viewers like different things. Some people hate me. Some people like me. Some people, they prioritize the people like, like a lot of people love Boston Rob, who's in system to body system. It doesn't let you talk to people and tells you how to vote. That's not how I operate, but it's just nice seeing how it's interesting how people latch on to different aspects of it. I don't know. It was, there was a big split in how people reacted me the second time, which is kind of almost like, makes you a little cynical, because I don't feel like I'd change that that much, but like, like I want to grow speedy in the challenge, and now I'm deserving of respect. I don't know. It's like, well, it's, it's, people want, it's complicated, right? Because with, with Boston Rob, it's a little bit like he's a bully you root for. Yeah. He's a cut charming guy in CARES Man. I can and people like a bully that they can root for, which is not, which does apply in politics, right? That somebody who is dominating, but also can get people behind them. It's a very powerful thing. For you, in your season, you're an underdog, people can root for, but yet you're dominating the whole way through. So were you ever actually an underdog, or is that just your energy? Do you have underdog energy? I think I have perpetual underdog energy. I mean, like, just very structurally, I was on the favorites tribe the second time with the big numbers advantage going into the merge. I think just because I'm a scrawny guy, that's wearing a funny little too big for me buttoned down shirt and khakis and stuff. It like oozes like, oh, he's, it's hard for, I don't know, not go to the challenges, like just anything physical. But you want to challenge your season. You did. I want three in the challenge. Three challenges. Three challenges. Three challenges. But physically, what a physical one. But I also had like advantages. There's a little aster, I believe I'd get reminded. Oh my god. You don't always take the fucking compliment. So in your season, it was two returning players, Ozzy and coach, you were kind of the captains of their team. Ozzy, we talked about coach created this hotly kind of spiritual religious tribes. Really, what a weird fucking season that was. But they're both coming back for 50. And I wonder if you have thoughts about that. Like, what, what, what, what do you expect from an Ozzy and a coach this many years on? That's maybe the dynamic. Because I played with them. That's maybe the dynamic I've got most excited about. Because they like, I don't think they like each other. Or at least historically, they didn't. I feel like, this is also old ancient history. Maybe they've completely moved on. But I feel like at the time, it was. Coach slightly felt like Ozzy was responsible for coach not winning final tribal council. Because Ozzy kind of came into Ponderosa and was like, don't vote for coach. He's a bad guy and everything. So there's this lingering ill will towards them. They were two returning players. I think that also kind of added to the competitive thing. Like, I'll do better than I did. And so I'll be curious to see whether there's any lingering resentment or whether, you know, the fact that they know each other that theoretically could be a reason to get together. They're part of the same, I don't know if they're the same age range exactly, but they're same air of the show. And I don't know. I mean, Ozzy the thing is, I'll be curious what there's a new incarnation of. I feel like the first, I feel like that first version of them was so wonderful. And then, I don't know, I'm not talking bad about this. I'm already, I'm already like self editing and like freaking out about one thing. Can I take a shot at it? He was the golden boy of survivors, incredibly beloved figure. And he tarnished that by being a fucking asshole. And maybe this is a chance to kind of, because he never wins, right? He never wins. No, that first time was the closest, like, all right, even the time I was on, he got very closely this final four, but that first time against you was like such a good, it was the ultimate strength performer versus the ultimate strategist. And it was like a four three vote. It was a very, very close vote, I think, which almost never happens now. That he would have once out the civic had he won the final immunity challenge. That's the whole thing was set up for him to, like, yeah, such a redemption island. The whole thing was so structured for it. And it didn't happen for him. So I feel like this is his chance. But I do think like I wonder, I wonder, you know, you can, you can downplay it all you want and blame yourself. But I feel like there's got to be a residue from the kind of hotdiness that he brought to the season with you that he'd want to come back. I think hotdient, like, he didn't know. I wasn't saying that. I wasn't saying I could. I could. So as if, as somebody who was a super fan of survivors, kind of a student of the game, kind of last question, how do you think about the way survivor has changed as sort of our pop culture has changed? And since, since you and I both watched the first season live in 2000, not together were strangers, but still spiritually watching together. I feel like, I mean, at the very beginning, it was like the Wild West of television, which is like, I remember they're being ambigodied about other people. We're going to die on the show. The way they were promoting it. It's like, it takes 16 Americans, one by one. They're not going to get any food and there's only one person left and then they win. It seemed like lower the flies. And they were really leaning into the like torture aspect of it. I mean, it was kind of also around the same time as fear factor. It's like more eating bugs and bug bites and people really struggling and burning themselves. And then there's been, I don't know, it's kind of, it's funny. I feel like when society's more, this is a big brushstrokes, but like when there's, it's more compassionate, the reality to use a little more sinister and then vice versa. I feel like right now, like with the political climate and the culture and conversation, so toxic, that it's almost kind of like survivor. It's not true of all reality shows certainly, but like Star Wars kind of done a public service of like, let's give you a little bit of a sanctuary from this dialogue. Even though it is still a game of deception and betrayal and paranoia and voting and everything, but I feel like now there's been an emphasis on more compassion and even just humanizing the contestants. Like some people don't like the little flashbacks where they go to a thing and say, oh, I grew up and this is what my parents are doing and everything, but it is nice to know. It reminds you that like, especially in the age of social media where people are so inclined to just dehumanize you and see any of the most hateful stuff. It is a nice reminder like, oh, this is a person that's going home to their life and family when this is over. But I feel like maybe when because we get so much, if you turn on scene and then you're getting the, you're getting the 2000 version of reality TV of all the people with the balloons and the bug bites and so it's kind of like, we don't need that anymore. Maybe if it swings back, we'll be craving more Hunger Games style reality TV, but I feel like, oh, there's House of Villains though. There are shows that lean into villain stuff. Do you feel like there's been an overall like change in the tone of reality TV? I'm so focused on Survivor that I'm slightly less aware of like what real Housewives is doing. I think on Survivors, I think a lot of reality shows reflect the culture. I think that Survivor, you're right now feels like something of an antidote or kind of contrary version of culture. And I think you're right. It has become socially gentler, but there's also something about the way in which Jeff, as someone who just believes in earnest striving and unironic hard work, right? And I do think like, yes, there's a way in which toxic politics leads people to want a more wholesome experience, but also ironic culture and the ways in which everything is mediated and even hard work itself is diminished, that there's still this place where that's how you do it on Survivor. At the end of the day, whatever is happening, striving and fighting, unironically even to the point of sapping your own dignity is still a value. And I think that, I think people are both a respite from the toxic political culture, but also a place where people can kind of sink into some unironic earnest, like kind of competition for its own saying. No, that's a great call. I've never been considered that way, right? Yeah, it's, if you'll make fun of probes like sincerity in those moments, but I actually think that is a nice, I don't like when there's every so often there's one contestant that seems a little too cool for school or ironic about it. And I never like it. That's not what Survivors for it. It is about extripping you down to your essentials and the vulnerability and the authenticity. And I think, yeah, I think that's, you don't get that in anything else. That's why I was trying to reality TV in the first, but that's actually kind of why I'm less into like traders and stuff because I feel like it becomes a career reality TV person that's curated this persona and it's no longer, it's kind of an actor at that point. I'm not saying they're acting, but like I still have games shows just because I like seeing the fleeting real interactions of like the couples on newlywed game were on family feed, the tension between the families and imagine what the car right home is like. Or in jeopardy, just like the interviews with Alex Trebek was always funny to me and I felt like Survivor took that and expanded out to this extreme, you know, hour-long adventure and that's what I'm craving. Yeah, the lack of, I never thought that's really cool. I think that's right. It is sort of like a hunger person's heritage. So maybe the goal here is to get to a point where Survivor is a brutal and mean-spirited slog again in which sweet smart Jewish nerds are kind of destroyed before us because that would mean our politics had gotten wholesome and that's a beautiful place to leave it. John Cochran, thank you so much. It's so great. It's so great. It's a good dog and yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. 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