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The Epstein Chronicles exists because those questions were never answered. This podcast breaks down what the public record actually shows. The deals that capped exposure, the decisions that limited scope, and the moments where prosecutors chose restraint overreach. If you ever wondered why this case feels unfinished, why accountability stopped at the perimeter, or why so many names remain officially invisible, you've come to the right place. Welcome to the Epstein Chronicles. This is about empowering consumers and giving them more access and finding more ways where people can put more money in their pockets. Crypto is saying, let's decentralize things. Let's remove some of those intermediaries, especially those government intermediaries, while still having it within a safe regulatory system. The banking lobby, they don't like that folks can earn stable coin yield on Coinbase and other exchanges. Is there a gripe primarily with the Genius Act or also in things in the market structure? Isn't it sad what you just said that the banks don't like that consumers can earn money like that is mind blowing to me. That is what we're talking about. This episode is brought to you by VeChain. VeChain is one of the top layer one enterprise blockchains in the crypto asset class, and they are getting adoption by many big brands and companies around the world. We're building Web3 and decentralized application technologies. I've been a VET token holder for many years. In fact, I started investing in VeChain back in 2018. And some of the key features of the VeChain blockchain includes it's secure, affordable, scalable, fast, and sustainable. Some of the companies and brands working with VeChain include Givenchy, Walmart China, BMW, Boston Consulting Group, and many more. Most recently, they partnered with Dana White in the UFC. And Dana White even said recently that he purchased over a million dollars of the VET token. And VeChain also recently launched staking, where you can stake the VET token and earn great rewards. So if you'd like to learn more about VeChain, go to VeChain.org. Link will be in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward. And joining me today is Cody Carbone, who is the CEO of the Digital Chamber. Cody, great to have you. Tony, always great to be here. Yeah, happy new year, man. I think it's a good time for us to be speaking. We're kicking off the year, trying to figure out what's happening with the Clarity Act and much more. Maybe you can give us the latest update. Where is the market structure bill currently in the process in the Senate? Sure, and happy new year, buddy. It's 2026 will be crazy, I can predict. So market structure, we are in the thick of it in the Senate. Over the last few weeks during the holiday break and the new year, we have been in active negotiations. There are Senate Republicans meeting with Senate Democrats. There are Senate banking members meeting with Senate ag members. To set the stage, we have two bills right now. We have the Senate banking bill. It is the Republican Financial Innovation Act. This was a discussion draft released from Chairman Scott, Senator Lummis, and some other Republicans, Republican-only draft. And then you have a Senate Ag draft that just focuses on things in the Ag Committee's jurisdiction under like the CFTC regulatory components. That was a discussion draft released earlier this year and I believe late October as well. where we are headed right now is that both of those drafts will be going towards a committee markup. This is the next step in a legislative process where they will have an open forum. It'll look a little bit like a hearing, but they will just be going through the text and hopefully there will be updated or revised text from when we last saw the discussion drafts. They will be going through the text and then the goal at the end of that markup is to amend it, revise it, change it based off what members' interests are, and then to vote the bill out of committee. We want each committee to vote their discussion drafts out of committee after the bills are formally introduced. And then you have to reconcile the two bills. Then it's got to go to the full Senate floor. Then hopefully the Senate will pass that with a bipartisan vote because we'll need 60 votes in the Senate. So we'll need Republican and Democratic support. And then you have to send it back to the House because the Senate did what the Senate always does. And even though the House passed the Clarity Act with the overwhelming bipartisan support, the Senate said, you know what, we're going to change it. completely, and we're going to do our own bill. So it has to go back to the House or vote. So we're in the early stages still, which is hard to comprehend because it feels like we've been talking about market structure for a decade. And we passed the Clarity Act what feels like almost a year ago now. But it's really, really good progress as we're sitting here in the first week of January to say, hey, we're going to have committee markups next week. That means this bill is moving forward and is moving forward fast. That is really the kickoff to enactment. And so my hope is that we will see a bill to President Trump's desk by the end of Q1. That is the goal and the timeline that I'm working under right now. That's really great to hear that action is being taken as soon as we kick off this year, you mentioned next week. And one of my questions, which you addressed, was going to be, why the different naming? But it sounds like the Senate put together their own version. Now, with the name change, is the meat and potatoes, the detail is still the same? It's different. It is different. Now, I will say what at least the Senate Ag Committee did. The Senate Ag Committee took the Ag portion of the Clarity Act, and they've just been redlining it. So the meat and potatoes are still the same there. The Senate banking version, which has the different name, the Responsible Financial Innovation Act versus the Clarity Act, that has really taken a more expansive view of what market structure should look like There is some DeFi regulation in here There is some illicit finance and bank secrecy act AML regulation in there So it a more expansive of the meat and potatoes that was in clarity but it still tries to get at how do, who is the regulator if you're going to issue a token and who is the regulator if you're going to list the token. Still at its core, this is market structure and it is SEC versus CFTC. So from that concept, the meat and potatoes are the same, but it is much more of an expansive view than what the house passed. Got it. And I'm assuming the industry is looking at this carefully, right, to make sure that the folks in the Senate get this right? Yes, there is a lot of advocacy and education happening right now. The digital chamber is doing a fly in later this week with over 50 member companies to go in and talk about what we need to see in market structure. The to the credit of the White House, the credit of the Treasury Department and the senators who are working on this bill, they have done several page turns with some industry leaders, myself included, to go through updated drafts. But we still don't have a final product in our hands. So it's hard to say, like, yes, everyone loves this or no, people like this, but they don't like this until we see that final bill or at least what is being proposed for the markup. We should see those and we will need to see those at the markup. So we'll have a better understanding next week of like where industry is. But I think the one place that everyone can agree right now, Republicans, Democrats, White House, Treasury, Senate, House, industry, we all want to see a bill. Like we want to see a bill. We want to get it done. Yeah. So the fact that we're all starting from the same place and there is no hesitation of like, should we wait to do this? Do we really want to do this? Things seem to be going OK from a regulatory side. No, no, no. Everyone wants to see a bill. We're all actively engaged in the process because we want to make it right. We're never going to get perfect. People who are expecting a perfect bill in Washington. maybe are new to DC. And that's fine, but you're never going to get perfect. You're going to get hopefully as good as possible. And then we continue to refine and engage through the regulatory implementation process as for, and to make sure that it does work for all of our crypto companies. That's what our goal is, to make sure that it works and that all of our companies can flourish here and we don't ever have to go back to the regulation by enforcement era. Absolutely. Do you foresee that now this is potentially now there could be another government shutdown come the end of January that that may cause any hiccups or we have enough of a runway? You mentioned towards the end of Q1, you're expecting it to go to President Trump's desk that regardless of if we're delayed a week or two because a government shutdown will still be on. Sadly, I don't know if we'll have a government shutdown. You know, it doesn't seem like much has changed since they ended the last shutdown and they kicked the can to January 31st. I think it is why it is so critical that they have these markups next week and that they don't wait until we get to shut down politics at the end of the month. They want to keep this process moving, even if there is a government shutdown. So if we can get through markups and then we have to reconcile the bills, you can do a lot of that during a shutdown. Yes, staff won't be getting paid, but staff will still be working. The senators will still be working. And hopefully they can start to reconcile the differences and come to one bill. If both just both drafts passed out of the committees, you can come to one bill. And then as soon as the shutdown is lifted, if we have one, God forbid, then you will be ready to put a bill on the Senate floor. So I'm hoping because of the optimism and the progress we're seeing in the first two weeks, three weeks of January, that a shutdown will have little impact. But if you have a shutdown that goes as long as the last one, of course, it'll have an impact. And no one wants that. Republicans don't want that. Democrats don't want that. The industry doesn't want that. That's why we need these markups next week. Yeah, for sure. Do you foresee any potential hiccups from the likes of Elizabeth Warren or Maxine Waters, who have been very critical of certain things in crypto, President Trump related. You know, it's a bit political, but do you anticipate any problems there? Yeah, they'll make noise. They'll do everything they can to make problems. That's for sure. I imagine Senator Warren will be on the floor once this bill is ready, trying to lobby all of her colleagues to vote against it. That's OK. We will have enough support and we have enough support for a bill right now. We have more than we need. Of course, we would like all hundred senators to vote in favor of a market structure bill and to recognize the fact that we need a bill. It is essential. If you have issues with the crypto markets, then you would think you would want a regulatory structure around it and not say no bill. But that's where Elizabeth Warren is. That's not where we are. We have enough support right now for a bill. It just depends on what's in the details of the bill to see what that level of support is. And that's what this negotiating process is right now. That's what these markups will help unveil where we are in terms of the level of support. So yes, they might make noise and there are definitely still some outstanding issues that Republicans and Democrats need to work through. One is like conflicts of interest and ethics and the president's involvement, the president's family's involvement. You have some others in terms of DeFi regulation, stablecoin interest versus rewards is being relitigated, it seems. So there's a lot of stuff that still needs to happen, but it's happening really quickly. There has been more movement in action over the last six weeks than there was for the six months prior. And that is very positive. Now, you brought up some of the relitigation of the Genius Act and stablecoin yield and so forth. We see the banking lobby, and I've heard some rumors that they're looking to put together a war chest of capital for the midterms to do their own formal lobbying. They don't like that folks can earn stable coin yield on Coinbase and other exchanges. Is there a gripe primarily with the Genius Act or also in things in the market structure? Isn't it sad what you just said, that the banks don't like that consumers can earn money? Like that is mind blowing to me. That is what we're talking about. They don't like that their people who have been paying them for decades can go earn money somewhere else and have choice. it's asinine to me that we are relitigating this. And that's where the market structure bill could be an avenue and it's what the banks are advocating for. The banks are saying, hey, Genius Act has settled law. It doesn't seem like we're getting any appetite from the regulators in Genius Act implementation to reopen this can and to relitigate this. 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Search for seven good minutes on your favorite podcast app and make it part of your morning ritual. Can we get a provision in market structure? I am doing my best to say no. We've already, we had a compromise. We are in the implementation phase right now. This is all about consumer choice. This is about empowering consumers and giving them more access and finding more ways where people can put more money in their pockets. And we don't need to reopen this. Now, the banks are saying market structure is the perfect vehicle. Let's reopen this. So it's TBD. It's something we're really fighting against. But the banks are very powerful and they're going to continue fighting. I wouldn't be shocked if there is a provision that is in this market structure bill that tries to address this or provide more clarity. But the one thing that I have received insurances on from senators who are supportive of the stablecoin industry is that there will be no provision in a market structure bill that provides some kind of favorable treatment to banks and not to crypto. That whatever prohibition is on crypto must also be on banks and that there must be parity. Everyone needs to be playing. Everyone needs to be on the same playing field. I can live with that. It should be on rewards. hey, banks offer rewards. I don't care. Give more money to the people. That's what this is about. And if crypto is the one who opened their eyes to give more money to people. Absolutely. And the word you use, you use just now was asinine. And I've been saying the same thing, Cody. Well, if you don't like what's happening, why don't you launch your own stable coin and give rewards or boost the interest rate from 0.01 to maybe at least three to remain competitive? It's ridiculous. It's about protecting their moat. It's they don't like competitors. They haven't had competitors in a very long time. And now there's a new industry here that is saying, hey, consumers, American citizens, we have an opportunity for you to save your money in a safe place and to make some money from it. Wow. They don't like that. They don't like that. It's so crazy, Cody. Now, jumping back to Maxine Waters, there was a recent report that she's calling for a hearing with SEC Chair Paul Atkins to discuss drop crypto cases. This seems like more of politics, but no actual, you know, substance to it. That's right. This is straight politicking. You know, it shouldn't be a shocker to anyone that the SEC is saying, hey, a lot of these cases that were brought by the previous SEC had no fraud related to it whatsoever, that these seem to be unfair treatment of American companies who are trying to build here and provide new tools to consumers. So I'm not surprised Maxine Waters is doing this. There's always a political angle here for her. The SEC chairman does testify at least annually in front of the House Financial Services Committee. So she'll have her opportunity and her day to ask Paul Atkins questions about this if she so chooses to use her time that way. But she also has no power to just bring him in anyway. It has to be done by the majority party. It has to be done by the chairman. And it is pretty upsetting. and unfortunately it's where we're at that Maxine Waters continues to fight against his industry and just say it shouldn't exist instead of recognizing, especially in California, that millions of her constituents are using digital assets every day and she should be spending her time advocating for them to be using them safely to ensure that there are disclosures, that there are consumer protections and working with the market regulators like the SEC, whose sole mission is to protect investors to ensure that it's done correctly instead of trying to vilify them. And she'll do that in a hearing, but it's pretty upsetting and sad. Cody, I don't know if you can answer this question. Is it the reason Elizabeth Warren and Maxine Waters taking this type of approach to crypto because they're being lobbied by the opposition like banks and other companies who are getting disrupted? Well, that would be ironic because they've also been the ones against the big banks forever, but wouldn't be shocked. Um, you know, to me, I think it is against their, their just political ethos. I think it twofold. I think this scare crypto scares the hell out of them because it grew up in a, uh, government free libertarian mindset. And that scares them. They're all about more government. that is their political. There needs to be more government that to provide. Government is the great equalizer to provide more stability in our country. There needs to be more government intervention. And crypto is the opposite. Crypto is saying, let's decentralize things. Let's remove some of those intermediaries, especially those government intermediaries, while still having it within a safe regulatory system. I think that's one aspect of it. And I think the other is the fact that the president likes crypto so much. And this is not policy. there's not a lot of substance here that you can find Maxine Waters or Elizabeth Warren or any of the critics opposing when it comes to crypto regulation it's all politics and the fact that Trump loves crypto that his family has is you know invested in different crypto projects probably really makes them angry and it's about politics and if Trump likes it we hate it and I think that's a big aspect of it as well for sure yeah some of it just doesn't make sense just we we will automatically do the opposite of. Yeah, 100%. Now, on the CFTC side, Mike Selig was confirmed as SEC chair. I'd love to get your thoughts on that. And he seems to be a great fit. Although there doesn't seem to be too many commissioners at the CFTC right now. Zero. Besides Chairman Selig now. I couldn't be happier for Mike and for the crypto industry. We were overwhelmingly supportive of Mike's domination. You can find a better advocate for the digital asset industry to be the CFTC chair or someone who has as much experience as him He got his start under crypto dad Chris Giancarlo working at the CFTC understanding the derivatives markets understanding the commodities markets and understanding crypto He then worked at Wilkie Farr with Chris Giancarlo, and he worked with a ton of crypto clients on their digital assets team there. He was a member of the digital chamber there, so I obviously have a special place in my heart for Mike when he was at Wilkie Farr. And then he goes to be chief counsel at the SEC Crypto Task Force in the most pivotal time in the SEC's history, where over the last 10 months, he got to really lead the charge in creating the policies for the Crypto Task Force at the SEC into implementing this new regime that was not about regulation by enforcement, but about clear rules, guidance, and rulemaking. He is the foremost expert on how we should regulate this industry. And so to have him as an advocate now at a time when we're about to give, hopefully, the CFTC, one of our market regulators, so much new power to regulate crypto, it's a fantastic time. And so I think Mike will be an incredible champion. I think he does need more commissioners. We need a full slate of commissioners. We will advocate for that. There needs to be all five there so we can really get more things done at the CFTC. And hopefully he's not on an island. But that'll come. I'm confident that'll come over the next few years of the Trump administration. They will start to fill out all of the regulatory agencies. But having Mike there is really a great opportunity for this industry to get clear rules of the road at the CFTC. Absolutely. I did want to ask you about the Anti-CVDC Surveillance State Act. I remember talking to Congressman Tom Emmer about this, and certainly important, it was supposed to be put into the Defense Act, if I'm not mistaken. That was passed. But for some reason, it didn't happen. I hope you can give some clarity there. And where does this bill stand? Could it be put into the market structure? I don't think it'll be put into market structure. They tried to propose this when they were passing the Clarity Act in the House. And that was the trade-off is that they would put it into the National Defense Authorization Act, as you said. It was stripped out of that, mostly for political reasons. That is a must-pass bill and passes every year. So in terms of where I think it could go next, I have a feeling it'll be proposed to be added in the next NDAA that'll go in December of this year. Hopefully it can stay in there. That's the goal this time. It was used, it seemed like, as a political bartering tool last time where maybe there were some Democrats say, hey, if you take that bill out, we'll take this bill out or, hey, we're going to put this in and you take that out. So it was used as a tool, as a tradeoff to get to the votes needed to pass the NDAA because it does need to pass every year. My hope is that enough of the political pressure around it and some of the news around it, as it was a hot button issue as we were leading up to market structure, will wear off over the next eight to 10 months. And that will be able to be slipped into the NDAA. It should be proposed there. I imagine it will be and can pass this year. Yeah, hopefully that can get through this year because I know that was one on a lot of people's radars. And look, people are concerned about CBDCs and privacy and all that jazz. And rightfully so. But hopefully they can get that through this year. I hope so. And I think they will. I really do. I think this is the year that we see passage and final enactment of that bill. Final item here. Curious, what's on your roadmap this year for the chamber? And I believe you have an upcoming event in March. Is that right? That's right. And I hope to see you there again. March 17th and 18th. We're moving it to two days because we had so much content last year and the years prior. It is the DC Blockchain Summit. www.dcblockchainsummit.com. Get your tickets now. We had over 30 members of Congress last year. We'll have tons of members from the Trump administration there. It is the foremost leading policy conference as it relates to digital assets. We'll talk about what's next for tokenization, putting crypto in your 401k from members of the labor department. It really is the policy conference for digital assets. It's a beautiful time in DC in March. It's when the cherry blossoms are just peaking and blooming. So please get your tickets to that. And we hope to see you there. For the digital chamber, this year is all about execution. You know, we're in a good spot. We're going into an election year. We know politics drives policy and we want to execute in the first half of the year. We want to get market structure done out of the gate. We want to get a tax bill done right away and get some tax guidance from IRS. Market structure is fantastic and it's critical. But if you don't get tax clarity, a lot of these tokens will still be issued out of a more friendly tax jurisdiction like the Cayman Islands. So we need tax clarity. We're going to be doing a lot through our digital power network on Bitcoin mining policy and strategic Bitcoin reserve and the Bitcoin Act. And then we're going to be doing a lot more in the States. We've been so federally focused for the 11 years of the digital chamber's existence. It's time to do more advocacy at the state level and have more of a coordinated approach. We have a trusted brand in Washington. Things are going pretty well in Washington right now. There's still a lot more to do, but we have friendly champion regulators, a champion White House and champions in the majority in the Senate and the House. We need to bring that coordinated approach from our TDC trusted brand to the state level. And we will be in state houses all across the nation over the next few months. And so that's it's a very busy time here. It never really slows down, but a lot of fun stuff. And it'll all be culminating March 17th and 18th, where we'll discuss it all at the DC Blockchain Summit. I'm excited for that event. Looking forward to attending and every year is always great. And like you said, there's members of Congress and lots of folks there looking forward to that. And hopefully, you know, it dovetails with the market structure, you know, making its way all the way. Yeah, that would be awesome. We could celebrate a bit there. Cody, great stuff. Thank you so much for the updates and I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks as always, Tony. Happy New Year. Thank you. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side.
