Leviathan Presents | Carnacki Blood & Aether by Jonathan Pezza

Project Hail Mary is an extraordinary cinematic experience. You're a great scientist, Dr. Grace. The world is counting on you. Starring Ryan Gosling. So I met an alien. Two worlds. One impossible mission. We're going to save the stars. Project Hail Mary. I'm A's. I'm A's. I'm A's. Seat first, March 14th and 15th, in cinemas everywhere March 19th. Hello everyone. I'm Kristoff Laputka and this is Leviathan Presents. It's a segment where we highlight one audio fiction creator, have a conversation and then play a full episode of their show right here in our feed. I hope you'll enjoy today's guest and without further ado, let's get into the interview. This is Leviathan Presents. Hey everyone, this is Kristoff and welcome to another episode of Leviathan Presents. It's been a little while since we've been in your feed, but I'm thrilled to be back, especially with a returning guest who I truly believe is one of the most cinematic and imaginative voices in audio drama today. He's the creator and showrunner of the multi-award-winning Curious Matter Anthology podcast. It's a podcast that transforms classic sci-fi and horror tales into deeply immersive audio dramas. So of course, I'm talking about Jonathan Pesza. Jonathan, welcome back to Leviathan Presents. Thank you. It's awesome to be here. Now, you've probably heard Jonathan's last season, The Exile, which brought us a dark noir story set on Mars that felt like Philip Marlowe meets Blade Runner. And if you haven't heard it, go listen to it because it's up for a lot of awards and features a star-studded cast and even has real sounds captured by NASA's Preserverence rover that's currently on Mars. And now Jonathan's back with a brand new season of Curious Matters called Carnackey, Blood and Ether. And today we're going to get a sneak preview of what's in store, listen to some exclusive clips from the upcoming season and talk with Jonathan about how this new season takes Curious Matter into bold new directions. So let's dive in. Jonathan, tell us about this new season. Yeah, well, we're about to launch our Kickstarter. It will be dropping in Q2 of next year is the plan. We have made the pivot in season three from anthologies where we were doing between two and five episodes to seasonal anthologies where the exile was 16 episodes. It was epic and it was bigger. We think our audience really likes to be able to dive deeper into the stories than with the longer form. So we're keeping that going and we're going back to a story that we started in season one and we're expanding it into a full epic, like world, globetrotting epic horror. And it's we did in season one, we did Carnackey, Gateway of the Monster. Carnackey is a series of stories that was written in around the turn of the century, 1910 through 1916, I think it is. And it's about the first scientifically driven ghost hunter, basically. It's a detective tale, but it's based in science because the author William Hope Hodgson was a deep believer in the power of emerging sciences to be able to overcome the challenges of his time. Not only does it give it a win, give us a window back, but we get to look at a time when the emerging technology really felt like magic to most people and they were in the middle of the age of spiritualism, which was a time when mediums and psychics and all of these people were considered by everyday people to be real and they were selling their services. And the idea that science could be used to communicate or deal with ghosts was a really innovative concept at the time. Yeah, I was I was sort of getting the vibe was I was getting a little bit of Sherlock Holmes where there is this kind of educated detective that's that's kind of the main protagonist, you know, his sidekick, you know, a kind of Dr. Watson or kind of role, but then also like a Harry Houdini quality who debunked so many of these mediums using science and using real proof and trying to see where the supernatural and the scientific could meet and and and prove or disprove each other. And and the clips I've heard kind of kind of go into that a little bit. Yeah, interestingly, Houdini may have been somewhat inspired by William Hope Hodgson. In fact, they had a run in that's no way relatively famous. So William Hope Hodgson at the time he was writing Karnacky was either invited or went to one of Houdini's shows in England and was invited on stage to lock Houdini's locks, to put him in chains and to see if he could lock Houdini up in a way that he couldn't get out of. And at the time, William Hope Hodgson was an avid fitness buff and he had studied pressure points in Eastern medicine and all these things that nobody was looking at at the time when it came to physical fitness. And so when he got on stage and he locked up Houdini in his chains and his locks, he used pressure points to basically make it so that his joints were locked up and he couldn't actually access the points he needed to get his to get to do. He was going to escape move through the right. It took Houdini an hour and forty five minutes on stage and everybody sat there watching to get out of the chains. And afterwards, Houdini accused William Hope Hodgson of jamming the locks to which William Hope Hodgson said he absolutely did not. This was completely the use of kinematics and body morphology to do it. And so there was a real life rivalry or conflict between the two. But what's really interesting is if you think about later after Houdini's mother passed away and he started trying to debunk all of the mediums who came and took advantage of him in his grief. And that's really the origin of that, is that there is a chance that he was inspired by the writings of William Hope Hodgson to approach the supernatural with that scientific methodology. So with that with that great skepticism, right? Yeah. And so one of the things that when I approached even in season one, when I approached adapting the first version of Karnaki, the thing that was really interesting to me was that William Hope Hodgson died in World War One. He volunteered very early. He was a artillery officer and he was he took a direct hit from German artillery while doing a volunteer mission to basically reconnect the telegraph lines with a signal operator. And yeah. And so he died at the height of his popularity as he was just sort of really getting his stride. And he wrote letters while he was in World War One about how his experience had been such a grit, had such a deep impact on him that he was so excited to come back and start translating the things that he had learned about through World War One into more of his horror writing. So we were really robbed of a Arthur Conan Doyle level writer who was who they were neighbors, by the way, funny enough to. No way. Yeah, that's the crazy thing. Yeah, they were neighbors. Arthur Conan Doyle started his career a little bit earlier, but we really lost this chance for him to evolve and take these characters and these stories even further. And when I decided to do that, I said, hey, well, Karnaki is a character in the books is really sort of a blank slate. He's he doesn't have a deep backstory. He doesn't have a lot of character flaws. He is just what he does in the stories, which are interesting in their in their own right. And I as a deep sort of character based writer said, well, what if we give William Hope Hodgeson a second life and allow his story to sort of continue by merging his own life's biographical information and that of Karnaki so that the characters are sort of merged into a single form. And so you're making it more meta and making life imitate art, imitate life a little bit. Yeah. And giving the character a chance to have those experiences after the deep impact of what he would have gone through during World War One. And that's really where blood and ether is built from. It's built from that idea that we are going to tell this this story. It's going to span actually World War One and the experiences during World War One and the 1920s where we started out in season one and tell a deeply impactful story about humanity, humanity, superstition and how science is. If you go back and you look at what we are as human beings, our entire social order and our belief system sort of starts in the cave with the fire and around the fire. And why I think horror is such a central genre for us is that the power of both the fire and the darkness beyond the fire's edge is such a compelling imagination driving central part of the human experience that as science has advanced, what it's done is push the edge of the firelight out farther and farther, but also sort of made what we perceive out there to be darker. And so I like the idea of looking at science's relationship to supernatural as the opposing force of technology backs the supernatural into a corner. It makes there less of the darkness and therefore the things in the darkness become aggravated and become more powerful in their need to sort of push back. Right. It's almost it's almost mirroring science, whereas we push gas into a smaller and smaller volume, it becomes more heated, more agitated. So that would make that would make sense for the spirit world. That's that's a really cool take on it. Yeah, I think that that has been such a visceral concept to work from the answers, the creative answers that come out of asking those questions are just so much fun and they're so impactful and they're so terrifying. I mean, that's the big thing. Like when you know nothing and are based on superstition, the things that you fear, you don't know enough to be truly afraid. But once you know enough about about those things, they really become terrifying. You know, that's the idea. And so, you know, the other thing is that I felt like I love the horror podcasts that are out there, but I don't feel like they're giving people scary experiences often enough. I don't think that they're taking the cinematic components of what makes great horror cinema, the idea of suspense and shock and slow build and tension and those things and utilize them to their greatest impact. Well, I think this is a this is a perfect point to let the listeners know exactly what you're talking about. We're going to play clip our first clip from Karnaki, Blood and Ether. And this is kind of early in the story and gives you a little sense of kind of what we're talking about with the horror and suspense. Yeah, this is going to be this is a bit of a sneak peek at the special edition re-release of Gateway of the Monster. Well, now that looks about right as rain. A bit of polish always does the trick. Fine work, if I do say so myself. Ah, Emma, how are things coming along? Almost done, Mr. Will's be, sir. I'll accept the locked room at the end. That's quite all right. I handle that particular room myself. That's the room with the reputation. Is it? We don't discuss it in this house, and I'll thank you as the newest addition to the staff to do the same. Mom's the word. What would a great big house like this be without a few secrets? That's enough for today, I think. Finish what you were working on and then head home for the evening. I'll see you in the morning. I'll just grab my clean basket. Give it a last one sofa before I head down. Good night, Mr. Will's be. Now, where did I leave my basket? I swear I'd misplace my own hands if they weren't screwed on. Oh, there you are. It's a shame, a big old house like this and no one living in it. No accounting for the rich, I guess. Oh, my dear, you scared me. Hello? Hello? Mr. Will's be. Did you need something? Mr. Will's be. Mr. Will's be. Mr. Will's be. Did you want me to take care of that last room after all? Well, he wouldn't have unlocked it if he didn't want me giving you at least a touch up. I don't know what all the fuss was about. Room could use modern touches all. The only thing scandalous is these bed clothes thrown about all willy nilly. Let's make you up, Neaton Pretty. How odd. I could have sworn the window must have been open from the... Emma? Oh. Emma? Emma? Oh. Emma? Are you still up here? I'm in here. Oh, God. Ah, here we are. It appears they are opening the gate for us. Wow. Now that's what they call a house. A castle. Apparently they had it shipped stone by stone from... Finland. Don't they run fishing, Finland? I'll let you ask our host. It appears he's come out to greet us himself. Thomas Karnacky. Thanks for coming all the way out here to our little shack in the country. Reginald Anderson, put her there. Yes. My pleasure. Beautiful house you have here. Took a lot to bring her all the way out here. Thought it was worth every penny at the time. Who doesn't want to live in a castle? She's a good girl. I'm sure she'll be happy to have you. Who doesn't want to live in a castle? She was originally called Nordin Ringus. Njord Sring. Njord is the Scandinavian god of luck, if I'm not mistaken. Thought its Finnish name was a little too foreign-sounding for the wasps if you get my drift. Took me ten years to get rid of the axe and hence Cornish Downs. Do they eat run fish in Finland? Archwright, please see to the luggage and equipment. I hope you don't mind if I wait out here. Not at all. Mr. Archwright, if you would, measurements please. On it, boss. So this is the room where... This is where we found Robert, his wife and my grandson. Two years ago? Yes. And you found them? Peter did. I couldn't bring myself. It's awful, sir. There is not a night that goes by when the evil thing doesn't make its presence known. And I'm the only one who will even step foot after dark. Where do you sleep? I've taken over the gardener's hut. I am not proud of it, but someone must stay on the grass. There is no shame in protecting yourself. I noticed a large room at the end of the hall that should serve Archwright and I during our investigation. Shouldn't take more than a few nights. You mean to stay in the house? How else am I to root out the culprit? Now what do you say? Let's have us a hunt. Online, in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com. Okay, we just listened to our first clip. And, you know, I've got so many questions about this. I mean, the first thing is this is a pivot for you artistically. So much of the work you've done is science fiction. Where kind of to make it immersive. It's not throwing as much as you can at it, but it's having much more of a dense soundscape. There are laser beams. There's engines thrust. There's such a rich environment. And horror kind of often is the absence of that. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. пад five worlds, so we knew it was time to come back to the roots of horror. So the thing I think that is going to be new for us is that, yeah, you know, we are constantly building really robust soundscapes and we use multiple ambience that we spread out over the soundscape so that you really feel like you're in a space, like if you're in, you know, a market, you can hear voices, you can hear specific conversations around you. We keep, we really do build to that level. And in the horror space, especially in when you're building tension, the single sound effect becomes so much more powerful. And what I really love about this is that, yeah, you nailed it when you said it's about the absence of sound. It's about allowing sounds to reverberate in different ways and allowing sounds to sort of work their way through the space as opposed to being bombarded by sound from the external. And so we're spending a lot more energy making, you know, the footsteps will actually bounce off the wall in the 3D simulated room so that as you walk or as something happens around you, you're actually getting a spatial experience from the body noise, whereas more often your own presence in the space, like the listener's presence in the space is really visceral because you feel your own breath, your own footsteps, your own body sounds. Using it like that, you can actually create shots because we, our reflection engine allows so that when you, when somebody's on one side of the room and somebody's on the other side of the room, if you want it and we use like a glass window or some other reflective surface that's very specific, when you change the angle and you change perspectives on the character, not only is there like voice more present, but you can hear that your placement in the room is different because now like the windows on the other side, so you almost picture the shot change. But I, you know, I want to, I think this is a good point to just point out the fact that very, very few audio drama creators are approaching the work as cinematically as you do. And for those that don't know, Jonathan has an extensive background in film and film marketing and works with some of the biggest studios in Hollywood, but to kind of approach audio drama from this, from this blocking standpoint and this physicality, you're not just writing, you know, your story and organizing the score and the effects, but you're actually figuring out where the characters are positioned in the room and how that affects everything sonically. And I think that is, you know, certainly a deeper immersion and a step that very few people, you know, have the technical expertise to take. And I think that's one of the things that really distinguishes your work. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, my goal at the beginning of all this was, was how do we evolve it? Like how do we bring the cinema experience into the audio only space and discovery of binaural sound design and sound mixing and different binaural sound engines that exist out there and the tools that they have within them really sort of opened my mind. And then on top of that, I was also really influenced by the ex-head scientist from Dolby Poppy Crum, who I had the opportunity to meet a couple of times. And she, while I was, you know, able to see her speak, she talked a lot of, a lot about perceptive sciences and perceptive resolutions and how the brain fills in information and how much it actually sort of needs to get the experience of reality. Fundamentally, you're trying to suspend the disbelief to the point where they think it's real. And there are actual technical sort of resolutions in the way humans perceive sound and, and picture and color that can be utilized to make a more immersive experience. And that's what they use to build at most. And so I'm just sort of trying to use similar ideas to approach audio first cinematography. Hmm. Well, let's give everybody another example of how you use these tools to build horror. We're going to listen to another clip now with Karnaki and his assistant. So let's go ahead and play that and, and we'll see you after the clip. So you mean to tell me that after being presented with clear evidence that there was a cover-up of Robert Anderson murdering his own wife and child, you still continued with your charade? Even if, as you say, the Anderson air had committed those grievous acts, which it is now my belief he did not. My duty in the matter was to ascertain the validity and cause of the preternatural disturbances. And how exactly does one do that? By using scientific methods. Against ghosts. Preternatural phenomena is not magic. It exists as part of the natural law governed universe. The exception being most assembly ignorant to the intricacies and factors involved. Now if you'll please, let me continue. Well, by all means. That's the last one. What exactly are you doing? Setting the mouse trap, sir. I take it Mr. Anderson has left us. Yes, he is on his way to the station now. Arkwright, the camera and flash should be set up in the hall if you would be so kind. Aim towards the door, I think. You sure you want it outside? Wouldn't inside be more valuable? Peter, the maid. Miss Schultz, Emma. From what I understand, you believe the room lured her in. I do. There's no other answer. And you're quite sure you locked the door before she entered the grey room? I always keep it locked. Yes, Arkwright, outside the door in the hall if you please. And then I think it's time to tuck in and see what's what. Please sir, reconsider sleeping in the house. Oh, I don't sleep. Pretty much ever. I'll let Arkwright get some rest until the hour is upon us as I keep the watch as it were. Arkwright. Arkwright. Arkwright. Aim up. Aim up. When did he get so damn cold? A moment ago. Just as the clock struck. I think the hour is upon us. Quickly now. Get the dark lamps lit with the hoods closed. I've placed a chair for you at the other end of the hallway. I'd like you to position yourself there if you would please. There's no time to waste. Open the hood of your lamp only one click so that I may make out your position from the glow but no more. What about the fences? It's important we get a full grasp of the what's what in its natural state. What it feels like, tastes like as it were. The room apparently has a way of drawing victims in and whatever we do, neither of us must enter the room. I shall act as a safeguard against that for you and you must do the same for me. Why am I the one that always has to walk down the creepy hallway alone in the dead of night? It's a sense of seniority. Fine, but I'm taking Bertha with me. As you see fit, just try not to shoot me in the dark again. That was only a thought shot. Fine fine, now go. I can't see anything beyond the tip of my nose with the hood set on the lamp like this. Patience, your eyes will adjust to the darkness. Open the hood only in the case of emergency. I found the chair, I'm in position. Now we wait. I hear something. Quiet. Carnaghy, there's something out here. The flesh is blinding me, but in the brief illumination there was a shape. Tell me, what did you see? I'm as blind as you from that damn flesh. Apparently the accounts were not exaggerated. Most extraordinary. What should I do? Open the hood. It's in the hole! Quick man! Close the door, close the door! You're telling me the doors just flew open of their own volition, and you, the both of you grown men, professional whatever you are, just coward in your boots like schoolgirls. It happens more than you would guess. He seems tough and all. Bye, Jove, just a theric energy. Tut, tut, he's a big Freddy cat. Oh really? Fear is one of the most important tools when confronting the abhuman. In that doorway, I stood frozen, unable to move. Prickles along my spine with a dread of the spirit so complete and oppressive. It was all but suffocating. Fear is a function of the mind's ability to protect itself. Hone your understanding of fear, and it may be a barometer for predicting the weather as it were. And what did your barometer tell you? That a storm was coming. Carnegie! A circle. We must lay down a protective circle. Next name, you go down the hall with the homicidal ghost. Shhh, listen. It's in the hall. The chalk. Here, stand here in the center. Now. Wait, what was the chalk for? To draw a defensive circle. A dechagram to be precise, along with the eight signs of the Samar ritual. I thought you were a man of science. How does this sort of, uh, pokus-pocus fit into all this? Things deemed magical occasionally have practical applications. It just means that the practitioners of yesteryear knew the how and not the why, so like all of us, they improvised. There are certain geometries linked to the fabric of the natural world, and these shapes you see are conduits. Celestial circuitry. When utilized correctly, they can be effective. Say I believe you. What happened next? Mr. Arkwright of Eye spent the rest of the night huddled together within the lines of chalk. Praying that whatever was outside that door had not the power to cross our hastily drawn defenses. Well, I think the house might be hiding. Indeed. Okay, that was our second clip from Blood and Ether. And I got some questions. So I was just learning about Karnaki, kind of from getting ready and listening to the show. Tell me more about the relationship between Karnaki and his assistant. They seem to have a fun banter. How do you see it? And tell me a little bit more about these characters and their relationship. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Karnaki is an outsider. He's the sort of quintessential outsider. He's the only person who sort of understands what's happening with these supernatural creatures. And so he tends to surround himself with people that don't fit in anywhere else. And in this story, we have both Samson, his assistant, and Mabel Dodgson, who is the newspaper reporter. And as Blood and Ether sort of advances, he builds these two different groups of allies and friends that become a central part of his two different timelines. The World War One timeline and the 1920s timeline. And you know, Samson, I think the idea is that he sees things in people that they don't see in themselves. You know, Samson was born with a contraplasia. He's a little person. And Buddy's also a brilliant scientist. And so the relationship between the two of them is for Karnaki basically unlocking Samson's belief within himself that he's sort of capable of anything. And he sort of takes that approach with all of these people who society has sort of told they don't fit in. And that is his approach to creating his group of allies. That is so cool. You know, one of the things that I think make a huge role in horror is music, right? You know, you can feel tension build, you know, you have all these cues. How did you approach music? I know in that last clip we listened to there was this beautiful tinkling of the keyboards that was so evocative of tension building. What were some of the ways that you were using music to kind of further this immersive horror experience? Knowing when not to use it is part of it. Knowing when to bring it in. I think that the key to scoring is sculpting. And so there's sort of two aspects to it. There's the compositional aspect of it where the composer writes or what is ultimately there. And then there is what you do editorially with the score in those places and how you dip it out and how you bring it in and when you sort of pop it up. You know, I, this music that you're hearing is still our season one music. It may ultimately get changed out in the special edition. I think it likely will because we're finally to the point where we're able to have our own composer. So that is a sort of exciting thing for me. But in this case, you know, this is about finding cues. And then I usually use cues that have stems, which means that I can control the different musical aspects of it. So I can bring in the violins or I can bring in things and I will sort of take a song down to its rise form, pick the sort of instrument that I think is thematically connected and then sort of bring in the other parts and the other instruments as I want. So I'm sort of with when I'm working from stems and from stock, I'm really sort of acting as a conductor as I cut it. It's not just edits in the music, but actually knowing when to bring in instruments. Yeah, I think you're right. We have this debate in Leviathan all the time, you know, of how much to fully score an episode. And, you know, I know that my instincts tend to run more akin to more is more. And and and I we, you know, Robin and I get into creative discussions all the time where he definitely favors a less scored version. And, you know, and I think it depends like I think with horror, you're absolutely right. Pulling back is what allows your mind to kind of fill in the rest where, you know, if you're doing action, you kind of want that swooning, you know, music score to carry you through. Oh, yeah. And in horror, sound design is rhythmic in a lot of ways. And so you're using bangs, you're using rises, you're using shimmers and other things that are non dialectic. So you're you are also creating a musical component in the sound effects design. And so those two elements have to meld really perfectly. And so, you know, sometimes you'll draw back and then it'll be, you know, an aquafone shimmer or something like that. And then a rise or a boom or the way the doors slam in that in that clip is is very much meant to be a driving sort of riser. But it is actually, you know, designed to designed as as and set in the blocking of the space, but it also is meant to have an emotion. You're supposed to have an emotional reaction in the fact that it is sort of accelerating and rising as it happens. Yeah, I well, speaking of kind of like a effects and how you're bringing characters alive, you know, one of the characters being called in that is this this fantasy. This phantom menace, this, this ghost, this monster, we don't know what it is. And, you know, what I liked, what I really thought was needed, what you did was how you don't really define it well, like there was a sound effect. You know, we use a narrator in Leviathan to over explain, and you, you know, you're not doing that here. And like, it seems like the scariest thing is when you don't really see the monster. And you've kind of done that with audio here a little bit. How did you, you know, approach you've got this, this terrifying supernatural presence. How did you make the decisions of what effects to use, how to pull back and how much description, how much light you wanted to show on your monster versus how much darkness. Well, I very much believe that in audio fiction, you want to do the least amount of description you can the benchmark you need to hit is, is it visceral and is it do they are they confused if they're not confused and it's a visceral experience they don't need any more information than that in terms of what you give them, especially in horror. This is a scenario, at least in that second clip for sure, they haven't really seen it yet they're running from from it. This is part of that paranormal activity sort of experience where it's the house, it's the flash bulb going off, it's their own terror, amplifying what happened. Funny enough, that's really based off of a real life experience. I was a producer and camera operator on the very first season of Ghost Hunters. And I was at the Eastern State Penitentiary investigation that has become like the famous famous investigation from that show. And one of the things that happened and I don't even know how much of it has made it into the show itself is that it was the whole dude run the whole like them catching the thing in the flash and the shadow and the thing on the on the that they caught on the camera. For me, it was being in the room it was how much the people themselves were psychologically like psyching themselves up and and how the slightest sort of thing that could push them over the edge into that terror and into that fear and that to me is one of the most creative experiences and horror is the idea that at first it's you battling your own paranoia to actually try to assess things and so things are even scarier than they actually are in real life because you yourself are in this heightened emotional place. And so like this scene is sort of about you know, Samson is the is the is the sort of subject doing that where he's psyching himself out as he does it. It's like the anticipation of the thing is scarier than the thing and then when the thing happens you're already so like amped up that you can't control your own flight, you know, your own flight reaction. And so that was what I wanted to get across in that sequence. One of the other things I liked in the scene is how you know you have this switching back and forth between you know the reporter talking to Carnegie on him describing it and then you actually go into the scene that he's describing and and kind of going back and forth and you know you didn't use a transition sound you didn't it works so fluidly and you know I think it's it's I think it's a very difficult thing to do an audio drama to have like kind of two scenes working concurrently you know if you've got visuals you can pick it up but it can be very confusing audio but it's not confusing here at all I think it's very clear how do you how do you approach that when you want to kind of have that that flashback and multiple perspectives. Yeah I really love that and I think I think that once you're starting to do by neural design work rooms sound a certain way and you do start to get your own sense of awareness in it. It's not as technically difficult as it is when you aren't doing those things. So like you know going to the sheet you always hear the fire like the moment you're in that room with her you're hearing the crackling fire for all of that and so and the interesting thing is that the Carnegie story becomes your anchor. Yeah exactly the fire those those scenes are going to be actually every episode is anchored the by a him telling the story of what happened to someone else because oral traditions also part of horror like the I the. Re-recounting the story is as much a part of that it's a it's a crutch sometimes because sometimes you do need that information you need somebody to say hey wait a second stop what the hell just happened. And it can do that but it can also progress its own story plotline which it does in every episode. And that was one of the things I loved about the original carnaki stories is every carnaki story starts with him inviting his group of friends over to his house for them to listen to him recount his latest investigation so I. Chose that story partially because it had a narrative it had narrative architecture in it that allowed me to have a tool to use to get the audience to understand was going on in an immersive way without having to resort to. Or to other things I always had a mechanic that the audience is going to become comfortable with and they're going to be living to storylines there's the storyline of the person who's in that room with carnaki as he recounts the story in their agenda which is what's going on with. Mabel dodges and who's trying to debunk what he's doing and then. There is the story of what carnaki and his team actually have to go through to deal with the supernatural entities and what that ultimately means and so. From a technical standpoint there's not. If it works on the page it works on the stage in this sense like. They meld and they hand off to each other naturally. In the writing and so you don't have to do too much you don't have to get the lily you just sort of move the audience and they become aware the moment that person's back in the scenario because they're not. In the investigation that you're now. Up your back in in the drawing room you're back by the fire as the story continues well let's go back into the fire one more time we're gonna play one more clip. The tickets into carnaki story and we'll see you after the job. I don't mean to interrupt it was just getting to the good part I'm very sorry. But I would be her mess in my journalistic duties not to ask. Well have at it you keep referring to it as the manifestation but at this point wouldn't it be more accurate to call him by his name. I mean it is after all the spirit of Robert Anderson what in God's name makes you think it's the spirit of young Mr Anderson. I mean it's a ghost you said it was a ghost or a theory or whatever and it's only appeared after his death so wouldn't that logically conclude that it's him or whatever part of him that survived that stuck in that room. So naive she's like a newborn foal. Well excuse me we all can't spend our lives boxing with demons like you two gentlemen. Forgive my companions just it's not a bad assumption per se but there are no simple headlines here. Ghosts in the traditional sense are largely myth. Then what is it? Something else something that defies even our limited understanding of such things something with vicious inclinations and the powers to do great harm. Kanaki. What's happening? Curious. And I bite his suddenly so cold. Look at the windows. They're frosting over. It's drawing latent energy out of the air. Strengthening itself. It's sucking the heat out of the room. Frost. Truly wondrous. Stay. The batteries. Almost dead. It's impassable. The cold. The colder it becomes the faster they drain. Does this thing know what it's doing? What is it doing? The sheets. They're moving. Steady on lads. God. The apparatus will protect us. Nerves of steel boys. James sir. Please. There's no need for this. We are trying to help you. You know you are trapped here. But with the grace of God we can help you. Please sir. Peter. I do not believe that whatever that is can understand you. I have to try. Robert. I know you are in there somewhere. Robert please hear me. If you are. We are. Made it through the barrier. It's got all of me. I've got you. Peter. It's dragging him out. James. Beast. I can just get to my knife. Come on. You boys alright? Fine. Fine. Fine. Well. That's new. And both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders. And armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world. Praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. And when that flame dies something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically. Based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man it is so good to be back. Join the glass cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark. Every Thursday night at 8 p.m. eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon. With the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. The world of Sonic the Hedgehog has been thrust into a not so dark. Not so stormy hard-boiled detective story that probably nobody saw coming. Follow Sonic and the Intrepid Chaotix Detective Agency. As they take on their biggest case yet. This high flying action packed adventure will take them across the world. Fighting for every clue they can find. It's one heck of a tale. Which is good because this story might be the only thing that can save their lives. Well if that's all I can just dispose of you. Wait what? All will be revealed in Sonic the Hedgehog presents the Chaotix case files. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. When the Chaotix are on the case. Okay that was our third and final clip from Karnaki Blood and Ether. You know here we're starting to see a little bit more of Karnaki and Samson in action. You know and you start to get into here a little bit of the rules of your horror. Where kind of science and nature meet the supernatural. And I really like that line we're talking about there are certain shapes that are found in nature. That have certain properties. And you know I thought that was really neat because you start to you know. My passion is world building. And you know it's always interesting you know like what are the rules of the game. That's a clue for what we're going to talk about later. But what are the rules of your horror university you're creating. Where is nature work and ghost work. What's your vision on that. Well the main thing is that they're not ghosts. Is that there's something else. Is that our perception of what a ghost is is wrong. And if you approach it from the scientific standpoint. For him it's about discovering another sapient species. That we are coexisting with. That we didn't know was there. It just lives beyond what William Hope Hodgson called the borderland. He really believed that. That our world had these border spaces where things beyond our current understanding that were capable of bending the rules that we as humans live by scientifically. Existed he believed that really truly. And he wrote about it in House on the Borderlands and in the nightland and in his Sargasso story. Other books he really sort of dealt with that a little bit more than he does in Karnaki. But it's really about the fact that you can't approach it like a person trying to make contact with their lost loved one. You have to approach it like a lion tamer. And that you are always about to get bitten. And you have to be careful because the thing that's in the ring with you is a primordial creature that you cannot logic your way through. And you will not be capable of understanding its motivations. All you can do is try to utilize the tools that you are able to discover and hone to deal with it the best that you can. And I think this is a great point to kind of talk about what makes this season so special. So there is a Kickstarter campaign that's going to be rolling out soon to bring the story to your headphones. But there's a lot more to it than that. And there's something that you're doing for this season that I think is so incredibly cool. And I can't wait for you to tell our listeners about it. Yes. So we are expanding for the first time this season beyond audio drama. And we are developing our very first tabletop RPG to go along with this experience because we feel like our audience increasingly wants to be a part of the story. They want to be able to delve deeper into it. And as a lifetime D&D gamer and palladium gamer and you know, Call of Cthulhu gamer, I really wanted to to design a game that allowed us to not only just present the lore and let people sort of live in the world, but create an environment and a set of rules and a set of mechanics that really enhance what horror gameplay can be. So we're currently developing the game. It will be ready when the show comes out. And we are so excited that Amy Vorpal, who's a longtime cast member with us and one of the world's like most respected celebrity DMs, she writes for Dungeons and Dragons. She is helping to produce the game. So we're so excited. We are going to really make sure that the experience of the game, which is called Blood and Ether. So we have Karnaki Blood and Ether, which is the show and Blood and Ether Supernatural Horror Role Playing System is the is the game that are going to go hand in hand. It's also going to act as a visual guide to the world and be able to give you sort of an insider's look at like what the entities are and the rules and the specifics and the technologies that Karnaki uses in a way that you sort of don't get through through it. But it's also just going to let you enter this world and go head to head with these creatures. Well, one of the things I thought that was so cool that you were describing to me is not just the mechanics of the gameplay, but but you spoke about how a tabletop game needs to have an emotional feel. And it needs to evoke a physical response, whether it's excitement, whether it's tension. But horror is all about this suspense. And I'd love you to talk a little bit about how the gameplay works because I've never seen horror interpreted through gameplay. But I think that's exactly what you've done. And I think it's really innovative. And I think people will be really excited to know how you brought all of the horror suspense and scare of what we've seen in horror movies into a game experience. Yeah, well, we want the game to be different because, you know, what Call of Cthulhu does is really great and what the White Wolf games do is really great as as sort of the staples in the horror side of tabletop RPG. But we want the very mechanics at the heart of the game to drive your emotional response and the roller coaster nature of horror from a moment to moment scenario. And what we've done is we've designed the entire game. Well, we're we are actually using the Chaosium basic role playing system as our foundation. So people who are used to that, we're going to be using something called the Orc open gaming license that allows us to adapt the basics of their system into our system. But we are also tailoring it very deeply to run slightly different. Our central mechanic is something called the terror gauge, which every character, which every character, their entire experience sort of is defined and driven by where their character currently sits on the terror gauge. And if they basically it goes from bold to catatonic and your and being the more scared you are doesn't necessarily mean that it's to the detriment of your character, like you're completely penalized, the more scared you are. As Carnegie says in the show, fear is a barometer. It's a way of of, you know, telling the weather. And so I wanted to build that into the game itself and make it so that your fear is actually an instrument by which you can role play your way through things. You as and your party are sort of able to create different chords. If you think about it musically, like gameplay musically, there are different things that you will be able to experience, be able to role play, be able to do based off of that base mechanic. And beyond that to the other big thing that is unique about our game is that horror is about stakes and in stakes characters die characters die really often and in and in tabletop RPG players don't like that they don't like losing their characters. And so what we've done is build a system that actually a character life cycle is about their life, their death, their afterlife, and then something really specific to horror that you don't find in any other genre and sequeling in horrors and how a story moves forward from movie to movie is that when your character ultimately finishes their afterlife segment of their character cycle, they go into a legacy mode where you redraw your character and the character can be related in some way to the previous character and you move your stats over. And so your character journey is about not just the initial named character, but all the characters in your legacy. And so yeah, it's going to be really neat. And that's, I think going to be one of the most enticing things about it because you think about character creation differently and you think about play differently because you're not afraid of dying because dying is an experience you're going to want to have in this game because you're going to want to be a revenant you're going to want to enter the afterlife play, and then you're going to want to be able to respect or do other things and come back for the next investigation for the next part of the story as the evolution of that character it is. Normally, you know, you're using XP or you using, you know, you know, success points or something like that. In this case, those things exist, but you also you get to evolve your character in a way that's really organic to horror storytelling. Yeah, it's, it, I think you're right where our goal always as creators in audio drama is immersion. We want to have our listeners escape into, you know, the world that we create. And I think having a game that's an extension of the world that you've created in this podcast just deepens that immersion and allows characters to really viscerally experienced, like you said, the fear gauge and more importantly, you've taken a realistic approach to where, you know, even when you're afraid, yeah, you're afraid, but you can, you know, scared people run fast. They run faster. Yeah, that's super straight. And then, and there's advantages to it. So in fact, people have to kind of play that and not necessarily put it a good versus bad thing. But, you know, your, your characteristics change depending on how afraid you are. And I thought that's such an imaginative way to bring the horror experience to a, you know, to a tangible, you know, format like a, like a tabletop game. And you might, you might be afraid one minute and bold the next, you know, that's the thing. About horrors, like the moment you feel you're safe, your courage comes back. And so the way the terror gauge goes up based off of sort of what the entities and how the entities are your experience with the entities in combat. But the way the air terror gauge goes down is through something called sanctuary. And so we, which is sanctuary is the concept of feeling safe. And basically, you know, you might end up at the top of the terror gauge where your catatonic and your character can't move and they can only speak in stuttered things. And the way that somebody might get you out of that is if some, there is a power that bravado sort of characters can potentially get called the slap, which is literally like the horror movie, right? Like somebody's catatonic, they're not moving. What do you do? You slap them. And it gives them the point of, it gives them the point of sanctuary they need to get out of the, you know, to get out of that specific catatonic scenario and become sort of an active character again. And there, all of the, the whole game across the board is designed, the magic system is designed to be a part of that so that, you know, not only are we dealing with supernatural magic, but the idea of like what healing is is very different. Like it makes like faith healers and cultists and sort of priest characters that sort of most people don't necessarily like to play in the horror games because they're sort of rigid. They become much more powerful support characters because they're able to, their powers are, are, are wrapped around their ability to provide sanctuary to people and to help them. And so it's not just about physical sort of taking physical damage, but taking, but being sort of brought back from the edge by these characters, these other characters in your group. I'm so excited to play this game. Tell us, where can people listen to curious matters and what should they know about, about the timeline and getting us into people's hands and headphones? Yes, so we will be launching our Kickstarter in mid September. The thing that we need everybody to do that is going to help us the most right now is head over, don't wait, head over to Kickstarter now, or you can go to cmanthology.com slash Kickstarter, or you can go to our website and click on the Kickstarter link, head over there now and click the notify me on launch. That will guarantee that not only are you the first to hear, but you have access to some of our early bird perks where you might get an, you'd be able to get the founders edition at a discount. Other things at a discount, we're offering some really amazing perks this time, including a chance to play with our unbelievable cast, which we're not, we haven't announced the cast members yet, but believe me, you're going to want to be at the table with some of these people. And it's going to be really exciting. If you want to listen to the show, we are available wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also head to cmanthology.com and you can click on any of the links to bring you to your favorite podcast platform. But you can also search us there. Please give us a like or a subscribe if you listen to the show and you like it. Leave us a comment on Spotify. I read all of them. I do too. Yeah, engage with us. Spotify is great for that. Audio fiction is such a, you know, our audience is so engaged and I think they're looking for deeper levels of engagement. And that's what we're trying to do with the entire scenario for Season 4 and Carnegie Blood and Ether is take what we're doing and what is the next amplification? What is the next way to make this more fun, more immersive and let our audience really live in our world? No, I'm so excited to both listen to this and to play it. You know, this is why I love talking to you and I love having you on the show because I learned so much from what you're doing and you're always pushing, you know, our beloved genre into stronger direction. So I'm supporting the campaign and I'm going to be donating and I certainly encourage everybody listening to do it as well. Check out Jonathan Pezl's work. It's some of the best you're going to listen to. And Jonathan, it is such a pleasure to have you back on Leviathan Presents. Thanks for having me. It's been amazing. We'll see you guys on real soon. Definitely check them out and subscribe to their feeds if you like what you heard today. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Leviathan Presents and maybe you've discovered a new show that you'd like to binge. We're looking forward to bringing you some more amazing audio dramas to discover and letting you meet some of the phenomenally talented creators that are driving this renaissance in audio fiction today. Stay subscribed to this feed for more installments of Leviathan Presents as well as all the full episodes of the Leviathan Chronicles, the Rapscallion Agency, the Inveneos Expedition and all the other spin-offs we have planned. This is Kristoff signing off for now. Thanks again for listening. I'll be talking to you all real soon. Bye now. Paranormal mysteries of liminal London and the cyberpunk chaos of cyborg. Fall in love with our core cast or be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Ox Venture, Three Black Halflings and No Rolls Bard. Ignite your imagination and discover the realms of Feral and Glory today. Go to realmspod.com or search realms of Feral and Glory wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to the world of Feral and Glory. We're going to be talking about the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast and our Regency era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. If you're more radical than you might have thought, we'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts. You're now listening to the trailer for Redacted, a brand new horror comedy. Today, we're playing a simple game of Call My Blood. Okay, you've been uncharacteristically quiet. What do you think? Is that one of the victims? What do you mean? Reyes? No, cut it out Jacob. Why are you pretending to be Jordan? Redacted is a brand new monster of the week horror comedy about Jacob Cain, failing actor who assumes his late brother's life and finds himself in the Redacted unit, a covert agency tasked with containing impossible creatures and phenomenon known as aberrations. Inspired by late 90s and early 2000s television featuring incredible guest writers from the world of podcasting, film and games, welcome to the Redacted unit. Redacted airs Fridays, 9-8 central. Search Redacted on the podcast player of your choice or visit the redactedunit.com for more info.