The Career Jungle Gym with Kate Crane

Hi, this is Dr. Ossess. I'll leave it another episode of the Way to College podcast. And it's funny. We, when I created this podcast, it was all about understanding and sharing people's journeys, because I think the idea that we all have this linear path or that one's journey professionally, educationally, it should be this linear straight line. It isn't, often isn't the case. And so I'm really excited because today's guest, today's guest, is doing work around this. Yeah. And so here we are. I think we're, we're, we're talking to the same audiences, talking about similar things, and I'm really eager to jump into her story. But as always, I'd like to give her the opportunity to introduce herself to our listeners and our viewers out there. So Kate, would you mind introducing yourself? Yeah. Uh, hi, my name is Kate Crane. Um, I live in Austin, Texas, and I am a career coach and co-founder. I'm the only founder of Direction Over Perfection. Um, I help students, students and young adults understand that your careers are not linear. They are jungle gyms, not ladders. And that the, the best thing forward is momentum. And there is no such thing as a perfect decision. Oh, I love that. Particularly to welcome Kate, but I loved the, um, you know, characterizing it as a jungle gym. I think, I don't know about you, but as, as a kid, I loved the jungle gym. Kind of like you could go in all sorts of different directions and there was like a, maybe there was a cargo net. Wanted to share. So I love that. Thank you. Kate, uh, welcome to the Way to College podcast. Um, I always begin the podcast with the same question. And my question for you is, if you had to identify a starting point for your educational journey, where would that starting point be? Oh, it's a great question. Um, do you want me to genuinely answer it as like the full educational journey? Or do you want me to start it as like the higher educational journey? I think what is the first thing that came to mind when I asked you? Kindergarten. Tell me about kindergarten. I, um, I went to this lovely school in Fort Worth where I grew up, um, Fort Worth country day. My parents went there. I went, my sister and I went there. Um, and it is a, it is a very difficult, uh, very challenging, but like whole person focused college prep school. Um, so I can remember kindergarten. You say, where does your education start? Mind I can remember driving to school the first day with my mom and her asking me, do I want to learn French or Spanish, which is a whole story in its own, right? But, um, I fully, uh, accredited the beginning of my education, the foundation of my education with country day, um, it was really, really tough. But, uh, when I went to UT Austin for college, I walked in as a sophomore, um, because I had such, uh, aggressive college prep education through APs and advanced, like, and then testing out of things and, uh, not GMAT SAT scores. Um, so it truly was a college prep school and in the most, like, bases of definitions. You, before we jumped on, we were talking about our work and you said, you knew what you were going to do at 18. Kate, I, I've got to admit, you know, I've interviewed over 200 people now and I've yet to have to find one that said that as a kindergartner, they were having a conversation with mom or with either one of their parents about, well, what language do you want to learn? And even the idea of college, the idea, because clearly you're going to go to country day, you're going to go to college, right? For a lot of my guests, college may became later down the road, right? When they could maybe see it, there was a little clearer. There were expectations conveyed to them, but it sounds like for you, those expectations came very early. They did. They did. Um, my, and we also talked about this a little bit before. Um, my great, great grandfather, great, great, worked on a railroad. And in the 1880s in Texas, and he went to UT and got a degree in civil engineering and then was like an interim professor. He was a professor and then an interim dean at UT in the engineering school. And so we, you know, I'm blessed to be a multi-generational Texan and I'm blessed to have this, you know, history of higher ed and every, not everybody in my family has gone to UT, but my direct line, everyone's gone to UT. So, um, there's that. Um, but also my sister, my mother and I were all, um, college of fine art graduates. So we are very strong workers. Uh, all have strong, you know, big careers, but our rule was, or my, the rule by grandfather gave my mom and then she kind of loosely played on us was do whatever you want to do in college, major, whatever you want, but your minor has to be business. Wow. Yeah. So my mother was a pianist. My mother majored in piano. She was studying to be a concert pianist. Um, but she had a minor in business. And so when she graduated and said, Oh shoot, I don't want to spend my life rehearsing. Um, she had one kind of like deviating career in the opera and development for a little bit, but she spent, um, until very recently spent 40 years as a wealth manager at UDS. So yeah, different, super different. Um, so, you know, we have these not like mandated expectations, but really strong influences of what, uh, your career can look like. Um, you said that when you went to UT, you knew exactly what you wanted to do. What did you want to do? I wanted to be an art advisor. I wanted to live in the intersection of art and art history and business. And, um, but you know, that first country day, and being incredible, um, we had as introduced to art history as a sophomore in world history. And I said, that's cool. I love this creation of Adam. Fascinating. Uh, and then I had the opportunity to take AP arch history as a junior, which I did. And then I was like, I just want to do this forever. Um, but I want to make money at it. So that was, I mean, cause, Hey, I like nice things and nice things take money. And I went, it was a very, um, you know, not pushed on me, but I was just aware. And so this is what I found for myself. Um, so I, you know, I did that. I did both. And I don't think there was really anyone else at UT. I can say at least in my graduating class in our history that was doing that. Everybody else was going to grad school to go be a curator. Or a lot of students. Well, a lot of students have kind of this big idea of what it is that they want to do. Um, and I think of immediately some very traditional and I say traditional, just common. Um, um, you know, I, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer. I want to be this, this, this, this. But like you said, nobody else was doing this, this kind of work. And I think what gets lost in a lot of conversations for young people is that conversations for young people around helping them find a path and helping them identify maybe a major and then potential careers is sort of the in between. Right. What are the things that we should be doing year to year? So Kate, what is it that you did? You know, if you know, you knew exactly what you wanted to do. What is it that you needed to do year to year to make sure you got that job, that dream job that you were working towards? And where did you get the information? Like who told you? What did you need to do? That's a great question. And I'll say that, um, I can say very like definitively now that I wanted to be an art advisor that really, you know, better said is that I wanted to have a career in the arts and I wanted to make money doing it. And over the course of many years, um, many conversations, I, I kind of found my way to this art advisor concept. Um, I was also blessed to be in Fort Worth. Um, that while it is known as countdown also has a really rich art performing art and visual art, uh, community, both in the museums, um, and then the people, um, out of my graduating class of 92, I think we have two working artists. Um, I have two other good friends who are, um, either art advisors or work at museums. Like there were an, uh, musician and an actor, like that's a, it's a really high percentage. Um, I think my own perspective. Um, how did I, how did I come to that specific path? Um, there because of this rich art community, I had conversations. Um, and it was friends of friends of this like larger community. Like, can I talk to the director of the modern? Can I talk to someone at the Kimball? And then once I was at UT, can I, can I like talked my way into interning at the Blanton and then from my, one of my classes, I loved the professor and three dimensional art and I talked my way into interning at the visual art center because she was the director. Um, and then I had a family friend who was, uh, he was an art collector and I was really just like trying to get my way to New York to go experience New York, uh, in a working in working fashion. And she asked her dealer, her art dealer to let me hang out for a summer. And that's what I did. And you know, I'm also very fortunate to be able to, to be able to afford to do an unpaid internship. Um, but I bet that first summer I had two jobs. I worked six days a week on paid, but I wanted to experience everything that I could. Um, so through that, I learned, I love the galleries. I love the relationship between the gallerist and their artists. Um, I learned that museums are not for me. Just like, they don't need business strategist, which is like kind of where I, how I define my, define like the middle part of my career. Um, I don't want to ask people for money. I don't want to fundraise and I'm really not a curator. Um, but I think I feel very strongly that like, especially when you're building your professional education along with your academic education and college, that you should be open to experiences that you might not like. Um, because you'll learn more as much or more from the things that you don't like than the things that you do. Hmm. So a couple of things that really stand out to me, one, thank you for that. But two is, um, you know, I, it's, it sounds like, I think it's safe to say that given you're the school and, and not, not UT necessarily, but country day. And just like, you know, as you said, you're fortunate. You've got working artists that came out of your class and other folks involved in art, but it sounds like there was a nice, maybe network that it was allowed, a little out you to tap into, right? But I think for a lot of our listeners out there, what, what really piqued my interest was when you said, I talked my way into the Blanton, I talked my way into, um, you know, working at the visual arts museum. And so just encouraging and reminding students that really taking ownership, taking responsibility and, and maybe stepping out of one's comfort zone and having these conversations and asking those questions is critical. Oh, absolutely. And I'll say that, um, going from country day, class of 92 to UT Austin is jarring. Right. Like I'm now one of 15,000 or less. Maybe that's too high. Let's call it. 10,000 in my freshman class. Yeah. There's no one guiding you anymore. It is entirely up to you to go figure out what classes you're going to take. How do you, you know, network your way into knowing the right professors? And, you know, at that point, the internet was still relatively new. And so like there was like pick a prop was a website we could use. So you had to, you had to do it yourself because if you weren't like, I don't know what you're, I don't know where you're going. Um, and so being kind of shoved out of a nest out of my little school and to this giant school also kind of built some of those skills. I love that. The, um, the other thing that, that I didn't get to say, but when you said, do the things that you don't enjoy doing work and, and, and you, you know, sometimes we take on work, not, not knowing whether we're going to enjoy it or not. But it sounds like whether we enjoy it or not. We can learn something, particularly from the work that we don't enjoy and say, I don't want to do this, right? So you graduate from UT, you hear your, is you've, you've had all of these incredible experiences. And so what came next for you? So all the things, all the applications, uh, all the internships, I got a job in New York at an art gallery, which, you know, en route to quote unquote art advisor. I knew I wanted to do time in New York, build a network, yada, yada. I had to set such a clear path. So I, I talked my way and I said, talk my way into it. I applied to this job in New York and I got it, um, got a tiny gallery, but it was in Chelsea, was in the heat of the cool, um, in a warehouse building. It was wonderful. Um, but it was 2008. And I joined in June and I got laid off in December. Oh. Yeah. And then after that, um, I applied to 50 jobs. I got two interviews and I lost those jobs to people who had master's degrees. You also had them laid off and on, you know, little, little kid, uh, so I do myself because a kid at that point, um, the six months experience. Doesn't want to candle to a master's degree. Um, and then I genuinely talked my way into working in a kitchen as a line cook. I was trying to decide. So let me take a step back a little bit. I have this path, right? I've done all the things right. I've worked so hard. I've had all these internships. I get to New York. I have the job. It's so cool and so fun. And then you're just crushed this thing I've spent. No joke. Five years, six years building towards is not viable. So I have, I'm, you know, not working, applying to things and going to yoga. I'm cooking dinner for myself. I'm teaching myself how to cook and I'm throwing dinner parties because I can't afford to go to restaurants. So, um, that's what I like to do. And so I'm genuinely just trying to figure out what do I do with my life now that what I thought I was going to do is not possible. And so I was trying to decide if I wanted to go to culinary school or as my parents were advising, maybe you should go get a finance degree to balance your art history degree and go to business school. And so, uh, you know, longer story long, I have had a really good friends, I had a really good friend who was in culinary school and her school requires that you work for six months before it. Unrolling. So I thought, okay, that's a pretty good plan. Go try it before you commit. So I talked my way into working as a line cook at one F by land to F by sea, which is this like iconic, um, date night, fine dining restaurant in the West village. Okay. How does one were very limited cooking skills and no offense. Of course I've been, but, but just based on, on what you've shared, right? How does one get a job as a line cook in a, in a, clearly at least a well-known restaurant. Yeah. Uh, great question. So, uh, at that point, I think like job, those jobs were on like Craigslist. And so I like, and there wasn't a lot of applicants, right? It wasn't like LinkedIn today where you had 200 applicants and 24 hours. It was like, you, you know, you're clicking through all the pages on Craigslist. There wasn't even like a search function. And so I like got to the link and I didn't live that far from it. And I was like, I'm just going to go check it out. So I'm, I'm like chatting with the executive chef and he's like, okay, you have a college degree. What, why, why are you here? I was like, I'm really interested in explain my theory around business. We're on culinary school and I wanted to work first. He said, okay, I don't know what you can do. I don't know what you can do, but you're clearly not dumb. So I'm going to give you a trial day, which is like a standard, standard operating procedure. You don't hire somebody. You give them a trial day. So, uh, and I think the actual job was for prep cook, prep cooks, peel onions and garlic in the basin. So I was applying to get prep cook. So I do my trial day and they like put you on the line and you kind of shadow somebody and help out. And so I did it. Okay. Job shadowing. And also I had like called my friend in culinary school and I said, what do I do? She said YouTube. Different knife cuts and just like practice on carrots. And so I did that the night before and then I went in and kind of like did it again. And the kitchen. Um, so I passed the trial day and then day one I'm in the prep cook. I'm in the prep kitchen, peeling garlic, no exaggeration. And somebody was sassy upstairs at five 30 before serve as service is starting and they fire him in on the spot and they yell down the stairs into the basement and say, Kate, come up. You're on the line today. And so I go up and now I'm the gardener. And the gardener is like, I don't know, just a coffee title, but, um, I was making the cold appetizers and the salads and the most bush. And I ended up, you know, there's a small kitchen, but I was like running that station, um, for a couple months before I decided this wasn't for me. It was incredibly humbling, incredibly humbling. Most humbling work experience of my entire life. So hard. Um, the kitchen was very clean. It wasn't the druggy, you know, rumors that you hear of restaurants. It was a very clean kitchen. Um, but, you know, I was a little white girl in the corner. Um, I, uh, nobody knew I had a college degree. Nobody knew where I lived. I fibbed about all of that. Um, but they let me hang out and be a light cook. Wow. And so you did this for a few months. I did. I did it for three months. Um, the end of the three months I was home for Easter. I think that, I think that tracks month wise. And I was spending time with my family and my parents were like, what do you think? Are you going to do this? I was like, I don't know. This is hard, but I think I really want to, I think I want to own the kitchen. I don't want to work in the kitchen. And so I was still obsessed with the restaurant culture. Uh, and like fast forward in my resume, I worked at DoorDash and at OpenTable. Um, but I decided I didn't want to work on the line, but I was barely interested in the restaurant industry, but I needed, I needed a better business foundation. And so I moved home and I moved it to my parents and I worked for my family's business and I applied to business school. And the family business, what is it? What was the family business? So what is the family business? Um, I'm giggling because my dad will probably listen to this and he, we call him secret squirrel. Um, he's an investments and, uh, the family business is like a big amalgamation of, um, some real estate. Some cattle, some like public investments, like stock market stuff. And so I did, I think I did a couple of projects. Uh, I think I did a, I did a project on energy master limited partnership strategy and public markets. And then I worked on like the PNL for our cattle business. Um, I was, I was like low totem, low man on the totem pole, uh, just like financial analyst doing groundwork. But a lot of this work, I mean, you've got this art history background. You've got a business minor. Um, here you are. You've worked as a line cook jumping into the family business. Um, was that a difficult transition for you? Or was it just, you know, I'd kind of been around the work. I was able to pick it up and I was just kind of able to move into the work. See mostly. What was the transition like for you? That's a great question. So I am a big proponent that everybody should be an executive assistant or work in a service role of some kind at some point in their career. And for me, when I was in the gallery, I was a gallery assistant. Um, at the time, the like, the term was a galerina, but like, I was, I was like less than a sales assistant. But I think what I was good at was anticipating the needs of the business, anticipating the needs of others and sitting with the gallerists that ran it, um, and, and help them anticipate the needs of what they needed next. And if that was a spreadsheet prepping to go to a art fair, yes. If it's installing things, yes. If it's listening to the client and pulling books and pulling pieces of art, because I'm listening to the conversation, I know it's like, that's what that meant. And so moving into the analyst role. Yeah, there was learning curves, but I was already really comfortable in Excel and I was comfortable, um, taking notes and thinking critically about things and in art history, like while you yes, learn art, um, art history is really a critical thinking degree around frameworks and training you to think about things from different perspectives. Um, there's a, there's a, there's a, if you, once you get into it, there are, you will find that there are a lot of management consultants that have art history degrees, but the management consulting firms don't recruit from art history departments, but it's because I mean, I have like, there's like six people I know, but from when I was a management consultant, um, that happened to have our history degrees that ended up not path. Wow. I love this because, you know, and I'm sure you, you get this with your own work when we jump into these conversations and I love these little bits and pieces of information. This is kind of like taking a peek behind the curtain, right? And this is what's really going on. And this is, you know, most of the folks doing this work are doing this or got this background because I think I'm sure you've found this too. For a lot of us, there are a lot of assumptions that inform, right? The work that we think we want to do or the path we choose to do is to do where the path we choose to do. Here, you, I think you've been fortunate. You've gotten to see behind the curtains in a lot of these positions. You've gotten to experience and said, I do want to do this. I don't want to do this. So one, thank you for sharing that with us. You, you're working for your family's company. You go to business school and you go to business school with the intent that you are going to do what? Because I know. I had no, I had no idea. And like I, I'm like, you know, Tina's not listening. She's still the Dean at the MBA program. But like I fooled Tina. Like I, I mean, I think I told them that I had a very clear view that I wanted to get a degree in finance and I wanted to go probably back, back into the arts. And I, and I really did pursue that. But as I, you know, then was going back to the director of the modern and I was going back to my old boss at the Blanton, it was really especially becoming clear then that like, this is not a path for me. I'm not a fundraiser. I'm not a curator. So I really did try to go back with a more traditional business background with finance. So I majored in finance. I remember my specialized in finance and I wanted a very like rubber stamp on my resume of you have, you have finance. And I'll say that like corporate finance and, you know, whatever I learned in that class around folks and calls and hedging, like makes my brain bleed. But I do love a financial model and I love a P and L and I am like a nerd in this, I'm so happy in a spreadsheet. So I'm happy that like there really was a true affinity for that. But I didn't know what I wanted to do. And, and I quickly discovered that management consulting is like a secondary MBA. And so I had a lot of friends that were going through the interview process for internships, through on-campus recruiting. I didn't get an internship in management consulting. I wasn't, I wasn't good enough. I wasn't interviewing well enough. I was also really young for business school. I went two years out and of undergrad. And at that point, the average was six. So I think that I think those averages have changed over time. That was, you know, I was really young. And like, I think there was one person younger than me. Um, but then I had them when I graduated, I did go into management consulting and this with a strategy group. How long did you do that work? I call it five years. Um, I was with Capgemini for two and a half, almost three. Um, but I went client side. Um, so I was staffed at an oil and gas company. And then I got to promotion from senior consultant to managing consultant. I completely burned out pushing myself throughout promotion. Um, and my client said, Hey, we're phasing out this like long term project. We'd love for you to stay. And they let me name my price and write my job description. So I stayed. Um, and I got, I had a lot of advice not to do that. I had a lot of advice that leaving management consulting was going to be like stepping off the escalator in terms of like the learning curve. Yeah. It weren't wrong, but it was the right decision for me at the time. I think I, I got in the promotion. I was managing people for the first time. I was, I'd helped start the professional, young professional chapter for Texas Parks and Wildlife in Houston. And I was loved with that, but I was like, you know, I didn't have time for that. And I, you know, bought a house by myself. I didn't know business doing that. I was just like completely, I just needed a break. And so that was a good break. It was completely a logical career move, but it was the thing that as a whole person, like that's what I needed to do. Or folks listening. So if I'm thinking our, um, all age, age listeners out there, what exactly is management consulting key? It's a, it's a really silly concept. Um, it's a completely, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to tell you the definition of it. I'm going to tell you what it actually is that the, like the high level theory is that executive teams will hire people quote unquote, air quotes that they think are smarter than them to help make decisions. And that's like McKinsey and company. I'm going to hire McKinsey to help me figure out what is the right next direction for my company. And there's a lot of different types of management consulting. Um, the other end of that spectrum is I'm like, I need to go implement a new system. I don't have enough arms and legs and expertise to implement that. Um, and, and there's a lot of value to that. It's just different. And I was, Cap, Jen and I was somewhere in the middle closer to the strategy side of like, we need to do something and we want someone to give us advice and also figure out how to put it into action. What's silly is that then you have 23 year olds that you're a device. Like I wasn't 23, but we did have 23 year olds. Um, I think I was 26. Like, but you're hiring somebody in their twenties to help you. I'm giving like these men in their sixties that are like 30 year Exxon veterans advice. What? That's what's silly. And that's like the whole industry. I mean, anyone that's been in New York consulting will say it's silly. I'm like, but, but, you know, I'm, it's billable and it's great. And it's, it's a really good place. It's a really good place to learn, work really, really hard, learn how to, um, develop the client, how to do good work, um, learn how to, you know, drop in somewhere new. Cause you, you know, the client thinks that they're hiring somebody that is an expert at digital transformation or XYZ system or process improvement, but like, I didn't know any of that, but I figured it out. I did good work, but like, you were hiring me, you were hiring a full time person. You wouldn't hire my resume. To go do those things. But I was on the main, I was a major consultant. It's really silly. Well, I mean, good for you. Good on you that you were able to do that work. And, and as you said, you stepped into the role and you were able to do good work. When did you realize this wasn't for you? Okay. But I, so for your call, I'll answer that before your college kids. I don't want anyone to take away that they shouldn't take away that they shouldn't take kids. I don't want anyone to take away, but they shouldn't go that industry. If you can, you know, study how to, the, the interview process for management consulting is very specific. So a case interview process, you actually have to learn the process to even be able, had a chance at answering the case correctly. So if you can learn the thing and get past the interviews, it is an incredible, it is an incredible work opportunity. It is really hard. We'll work long hours and you'll probably travel a lot, you know, to fun and not fun places. And the average life of a traveling consultant is two years because the life is so hard. Only two years. But once you have that on your resume, people know you can hang and you can do a lot of other hard things. So I think it's like you kind of have to be in the know. It's if you're not in the business school at UT, you kind of don't know that this is an option. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I can, I can answer the next question, but moving on from Capgemini or moving on from the oil and gas company. Capgemini. Yeah, I was burning out and they gave me this like offer I couldn't refuse. Because they said like, tell me the offer that you would take. And so I gave them a number that I thought they would say no to. And then they didn't. And I know now that I should have asked for more money. But at the time it was like crazy dollars. And so it was great. And I worked a few hours and I made more money. But I also learned a lot less over the next two years. But it was a good break. I like how you describe it as a break. Making more money, working fewer hours as a good break. Wow. Okay. This work. That's great. This work. You know, I'll say that it's a good example of like work hard and you'll get lucky. You know, I started to say I was blessed to have the opportunity and I am blessed. I'm blessed in many, many ways. But I was given the opportunity because I had been busting my ass and they knew that. And that I had really become like, so. I was a, you know, whatever, I was a operations, a manager consultant at the time. And I was helping this like effectively a startup kind of stand up through operations and figure things out that like they didn't know how to figure out. And so when I wrote my job description, I became the chief of staff to the COO and the CTO. And so I, I wrote myself a JD that I could go learn from them. But in those two years, I worked for a gentleman that was like kind of lent to this as like a joint venture. I had one boss from Exxon and one boss from Chevron. And I learned that because I was not an engineer, there was a very real class ceiling for me in well, in gas. And it had nothing to do with my gender. It was because I wasn't an engineer. And so my time was limited there. At least in my, in my own, you know, business path. Yeah. Do you think? Because I mean, I think this is common. People find their way into work, work their way into work, realize that my time is limited here or there is a glass ceiling and I can't, that I'm not going to be able to kick seed. But I'm going to hold on to this job. I'm going to fight tooth and nail for this job. Did that thought into your mind? Oh, I could have stayed there as long as I wanted to. I don't think that they, I was definitely pushed out. So the, you know, back to this whole person concept, what was also happening in my life in that I met my, started dating this guy and we're, you know, fast forward, we're married now. But this guy had never lived outside of Texas and he was really fun. He liked to travel and he said, Hey, we've been dating for like four months. He said, Hey, I think I need to leave Texas and go experience something else. And I was like, that's a great idea. You should do that. And he said, I think I'm going to go to Denver. And do you want to come with me? And I said, yes. I mean, like it's the decision was a lot more complicated than that, but that was the essence of it. So I think we were dating for six months. And I said, I think let's do this. And then at essentially a year of us dating, we moved to Denver and I quit my job. He moved with his job. And I quit my job. He moved with his job to go start their Denver office. And we got engaged like two months later. But I was like, this is this is this is the blessing. I need to pick it up. I need to pick a new word. But he. I was excited for him to want to go experience new things, just like I had experienced New York and come back. He went, he wanted to go experience Colorado. And I said, I love Colorado. Let's go and we'll figure it out. We'll be experimentable, you know, two years. It'll be fun. We were there for six years. But if I had not taken that leap and I had not been so intentional in, you know, choosing him and also my career, I would never have found DoorDash. So I took that opportunity to leave oil and gas and to go back to what is it that I love? What do I want to do? Now I had a firmer understanding that I was good at operations. I was good at finance, although I'm like not an accountant. So I was like an FNA person. And I wanted to find my way back to food and to restaurants. So I was interviewing at CPG companies. I was interviewing at. Basically just CPG, actually, there's a lot of CPG in Denver. And particularly natural foods, which I'm also excited, like a fan of. And DoorDash, but DoorDash was like distant, distant third, distant, very small company, totally losing to Uber. And they were hiring their first kind of like driver, dasher person and for the Denver office. And I got a job and thought, you know, I'm going to do operations for a bit at this like tech company and how exciting. We'll see where it goes. But that was 2017. And then DoorDash like took off. How long did you work with DoorDash? Five years. So I say to us in the dash, the dasher side of the business for the first year, which at that point was like very manual, acquiring dashers, onboarding dashers, determining how many dashers we need. And then like when you needed them to show up, like in that part of town, on a set Friday night, I was like physically texting them, like extra money. Here, here, here. It was like playing a video game. It was like, oh, on computer. But now all that's automated. It was not automated back then. And then I, the second year, I talked my way over to the merchant side of the business, which was where I really wanted to be, like actually working with restaurants. And I was on DoorDash Drive, which is now called Platform Services. It's the white legal business. So if you order something from the Chipotle app for delivery, it's actually a DoorDash driver. And in summer of 2018, they were like just starting that business. They've been doing catering, but they hadn't been doing small orders. And so I joined the small order team. And at the end of my three years on that team, we did, so I effectively had run US restaurants for the three years. There were points where I had Canada and points where I had Australia and points where I had the pizza business and the catering business. And, but, you know, because, you know, start up things change. But most consistently is US restaurants and our team, when I joined the team, when I joined the team, the whole team did $9 million annualized revenue in the first quarter. And when I left that team, my team did over 500 million in revenue, annualized revenue. Just it was it was DoorDash, COVID, like they were it was IPO. Like I left that team in 2021. We went through the IPO in 2020. It was crazy. And then at the end of middle of 2021, I had my first daughter and I decided, I, you know, I don't think I can like run a business line and be a mom, which is actually like not true. But at the time I was very worried about that. So I went over to corporate development doing M&A strategy for that like new team. September of 2021. What, and what came next? A dear friend from DoorDash, from the drive team had gone over to this company called Flock Safety. And he asked me to come be his first hire. So I went over to stand up strategy and operations at Flock. Strategy and operations is like, at DoorDash, you know, to like carry these metaphors. It's effectively like an internal consulting team. And you're not like doing consulting projects. But first, no one that in 2017 and before, like no one comes from delivery. You know, you're not, you're probably not hiring from Uber, although we did hire some people from Uber. You know, I didn't, this is like tacky, but we didn't hire, we didn't want to hire anybody from Grubhub. So who else do you hire? You hire a manager of consultants. You hire people that have never, have never, never been hired. You hire people that have never, that know how to do things they don't know how to do. How to go figure it out. So like, I'm not, I'm genuinely, we hired bankers and management consultants. Cause those two skill sets know how to not know anything and go figure it out and then get it done. And that is this like strategy and operations concept. Using data to make decisions. Like when I was, when I was running US restaurants, my job was to like make money. I say this all the time, well, I'm like new teams and they're like, that sounds so silly. And I'm like, it's not, how do you make money? I need to do deliveries and I need to do them profitably. How do I do deliveries? I need them, I need to have more stores and I need to have more orders per store. And how do I get more stores? I like go have a sales pipeline and we convert the pipeline. But like, you know, I just made that all up. Like I was just, you just think critically about how to do things. So I was hired to go do that at flock safety. But at flock that meant before you use data to make decisions, we had to build a data team. I inherited a team, they're lovely and many of them are still there, but we converted it from like a team that built dashboards into a team that built data architecture and does data science. And yeah, flock safety uses data to solve crimes. That's essentially what they do. It's not the words they use, but automated license plate reading cameras so that you can use objective data points to go find stolen vehicles and find missing persons. I'll solve hit and runs, things like that. Wow. It was weird left turn. Yeah, law enforcement, not what I was expecting, but it was a fun couple years. How long did you do that work? Two and a half years. Why leave? There was a lot of change in the leadership team. The guy, I still close friend, he left to go somewhere else. And then at that point I was working for the CFO and he left. And there's more to it, but that's the easy answer. So here you are. Learning, adding to your skill set, solving problems. What came next for you? I went back to food. I went to the food service. I so after block, I spent a couple months recruiting and trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And I was being really intentional. I really wanted to go back to restaurant tech. And I looked at some other industries as well. I got really deep in an interview process for a creator marketing firm. But food tech was really what where I wanted to go. And I had worked with OpenTable when I was on corporate development at Dorg-Ash. And I got the confidence to call the CEO who I'd worked with and said, Hey, who do you like? What do you think about restaurant tech today? I've been out of it for a couple years. Who should I talk to? And at the end of that conversation, she was like, Do you want to come here? Yeah. Yes. What do you mean? Like, what do you mean you want to come here? Of course I want to come to OpenTable. And so we created a role for me. And that was a go to market strategy. And I brought together three different teams that were under different C-suite numbers to kind of build a tighter go to market motion of product marketing, restaurant marketing, and sales enablement. Yeah. That is it. You know, there's more to the story, but it was a quick trip. But one of the things that I learned in that, so I left OpenTable last fall. But one of the things I learned en route to that role was how to network and how to find that next thing. Part of that networking, I was talking with a friend who's an executive recruiter and she was a classmate when I was at Macomb's at UT Business School. And I was telling her what I was doing to kind of try to find this job. And she said, Kate, you're doing it wrong. And I was like, I'm sorry. What? She's like, you're recruiting. You're recruiting wrong. Like, here's the answers to the test. And the answers to the test was like, what is your marketing plan for yourself? What do you want? And I was like, oh, I had kind of like a wishy washy answer. And she was like, no, I'm serious. Like, you need a one pager. What do you want? And so I have one pager that I have Narsha and I'll share it with like 20 people. That is like, at that point, I wanted these three titles. And I had that I had articulated the value that I would create. And because it was like, COO, VP of go to market, VP of revenue, but I didn't want to do sales. And then underneath that, I described what that meant to me. And then I was agnostic to the industry. No, no, I was sorry. I was I wanted restaurant tech or marketplaces or like consumer facing SaaS and I was agnostic to the company. But I knew like, is where I wanted to be so that when you go talk to somebody in a networking manner, they say, well, what can I help you with? What are you looking for? So what I'm looking for. And then you're not asking for help. You're asking for advice on how you're going to market with your job search. And that tweak of asking for advice instead of asking for help is now a thing in this iteration, the space of being a career coach. I preach. How to ask for an informational interview or a coffee chat. Know what you want out of that conversation. Ask for advice on how you're approaching your job search. And because you as a as a as a person looking for a job, you are a smart human. I don't even know this universal you I'm talking about. I'm just saying you are confident and you're going to have a good conversation. And when you ask for advice and you have a worthwhile conversation, that person is going to offer help, but you haven't asked for it. You ask for their advice. And at worst, somebody like talks about themselves for an hour like we are now. And at best they offer help. Why? Why? Okay. Why? Here you go. And and you're learning all of these things you're growing. You've developed this one pager. With the titles that you want and with exactly what you're looking for. And you decide to become a career coach. So I left OpenTable and OpenTable is a wonderful company. I love love the product, love the restaurants. I will defend it in the marketplace against its peers until the ends of the earth. But I think I'd put this opportunity on a pedestal. And so when I left, I thought, what do you recruit for now? You were at the company in the role that you wanted. What are you going to do now? And if I look back to like, you know, really to to Dordash, which is honestly my favorite company ever to work for. And I have lots of friends who are still there and they're boomeranging back there now, like it's wonderful. It's tough, but it's wonderful. I love the people and I love managing the people, especially the young people. When I joined Dordash, I was 31 and I was old lady. I was old lady at 31. And it was an average like significantly like my boss was 28 and he'd like never managed anybody before and he's great. But like it. So I got had this opportunity to like manage people that had not really had real career coaching. So I built, you know, some real career coaching chops because these are young people who are smart and talented, but are maybe in the right role for them. Maybe they're not in the right role. And so managing them was not just managing into the next promotion. It was helping them determine what do they want to do with their lives? Do they want to go to a different team to go learn a different skill? Do they want to go to a different company because this pace of work is not for them? And sometimes I managed them. I prioritized helping them even when it was not in my best interest. And that's what really filled my cup. In parallel, throughout all of these phases, family, friends would reach out and say, hey, I have a daughter or son and they're going through this hard decision. Can you help to make that decision? Or I had, they had this advice and they want to go to Dordash or they have this. And they want to do what? So I've been doing it on the side for free. And in the middle of all this kind of like reflection last fall, had somebody reach out and it was like really like the second person that I had no connection with reach out and say, hey, can you help me? And it was my husband's fishing buddy's daughter. And I took her to dinner and we talked about what she wanted to do. A really more importantly, what she didn't want to do. And I left that. I left that dinner and thought, this is it. This is what I love. I should just do this. I should just figure out how to make money doing this. And that was December 3rd. And I like, I'm just like full speed coaching of six clients on what more working on it. I had a presentation this evening at a sorority, helping them, you know, preach the good word about building their careers. But it's really fun. Hey, thank you for walking us through this, because I think what you've shown us is even for somebody who has a very clear idea of the work that they want to do, right? Faced with setbacks and and challenges, you were able to adapt. You picked up other work. You tried different things. You weren't above trying anything. It sounds like every opportunity that you were able to take advantage of or to create for yourself, you learned something from that. You were able to continue to add things to your toolbox, so to speak. And and along the way, I think learning more and more about yourself. And as you said, figuring out what it is that fills your cup. So today you're doing the career coaching. It sounds like, well, one, as you said, you're full speed ahead. You've got six clients and. You know, what's next? Continue to build that client list. What do you? Yeah, I mean, one on one coaching, I will always do. Trying to find ways that are more scalable and economical to help people. I'm giving a seminar in person on close to campus in West Campus in April for people that are starting their first jobs. Kind of the things that career services isn't going to tell you about, like. Carry a notebook. Here's what a meeting looks like. Here's how to, you know, prepare your wardrobe for an office environment. Like these are so tactical, but. Really can be scary things that you're trying to get out the first time. So I'm trying to find scalable ways to help. And then I then actually take all of this content from one on one coaching and productize it of a tech term, but like, you know, put it online so I can scale it to individuals that maybe can't afford the one on one coaching, but still very much deserve to hear the content. I love that. I love that. That's exciting work, Kate. And and, you know, I applaud you for this work because I know it's it's important work. And and I think, you know, as you said, a lot of folks don't know. I think that's, you know, for me, one, I love these conversations, but I especially love sort of the peeling back the layers, right? And seeing looking behind the curtain, right? Because again, just as you said, this top that you're going to give, what is it that the career services doesn't tell tell you? Right. And and I've had I've had a number of guests who've talked about how the transition from college to the workforce was just as difficult, if not more so, than that transition from high school to college. But nobody ever talks about that. Yes. Yeah. Good thing. And I have I have friends that, you know, peers would say, oh, these kids, they chewed gum in the interview. It's like. Did no one tell them not to? And like, it's it's a stupid example. But, you know, if I can help that, like, you know, it's just help the employer be less frustrated and the student be more a young adult, be more confident. Yeah. Silly silly silly errors. Um, I hope that people take away. I mean, I have loved my career and it is not perfect. It's been hard and there's been uncertain turns. But, you know, I am a strong believer that the only certainty in life is change. And like change is hard. But it doesn't have to be impossible. And if you're doing something you don't like or doesn't serve you anymore, leave. I mean, like still pay your bills, still pay your rent, still figure out how to like take care of yourself. But if you're unhappy and it's not filling your cup or your cup is just like drained on all the sides, change it. Life's too short. Find something that does fill your cup. OK, I hope that one, you'll give me all of your information so that I can share this with my network, but then also some of those events, information about those events. So we can get this episode up before those events, give people some time to learn about it. And hopefully if they're in the Austin, it'll be this will be in Austin. Correct. Yeah, it's at the Texas Women's Federation and West Campus. And it's just an open, I mean, if there's like a fee to attend, but open registration, if we need to make it bigger or we'll make it bigger. Well, let's try to make it bigger. So send me that information so I can post it. But before I go, thank you one for sharing your story. Thank you for all of the tips and the insight. But as with all of my guests, I always ask, you know, as we head out, what final piece of advice would you like to share with folks? You are the best advocate for your life and your career. Trust your gut. Take advice, seek advice from people that you trust and that you feel like have are well suited to give you advice, but you don't have to take every piece of advice. You're your own best advocate. It's your career to build and trust that you'll make a good decision. I love that. I love that. Thank you, Kate. Kate, thank you again for your story. Thank you for your time today. This concludes another episode of the Way to College podcast. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to all of you all out there listening and watching. Please remember to subscribe, rate, follow all of that good stuff. And we'll see you again soon. All right. Thank you. You