Ending Relationships w/ Carlyn Hudson - Just Shoot It 518

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. If you need a new appliance, this is your sign. Shop at Lowe's now to get up to 35% off and next day delivery on hundreds of major appliances. A new appliance now means an easier to do list later. Our best lineup is at Lowe's. Valid through 318. Wall supplies. Last selection varies by location. Order by 4pm Available Monday through Saturday. Subject to availability, fees, exclusions and restrictions apply. See lowe's.com appliancedelivery for more details.

0:00

Hey, welcome to the 518th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patron Nick Lang. I'm Matt Lowe.

0:53

And I'm War Kaplan. And today we have our good dear friend on. We were supposed to have her. She was not available, but we got Carlin Hudson instead. Thank you, Carlin.

1:02

Classic or an intro? Just. You had to throw a dad joke dig in there.

1:11

You know, just, just a roast right away.

1:15

Dads aren't that mean. But I am pitching on a roast related thing, so maybe that's why it's happening. But Carlin, we are here to talk about, I mean, it's kind of like a, a mini roast of sorts. We were talking about, you know, people when we're, we've worked with collaborators, whether producers, cinematographers, production designers, pas, anything. And we have kind of a questionable experience and trying to figure out whether we should try to work it out or try to move on and kind of break down that decision process. Because it's something that we've all gone through over our careers and even maybe recently.

1:17

I think that part of the resource that this show provides is like a chance for directors to vent and commiserate a little bit and that we three will text each other and complain sometimes. But that aspect of the show, we don't really do that on the show very much. So this is, this is a complain fest.

1:49

So my first time complaining on the show, you know, our friend Tony Capacity

2:07

about, about people specifically. Yeah, I would say, you know, okay,

2:12

Tony, Tony will text me like I mentioned every week and say like, hey, I totally relate to this thing that you guys are talking about. So I do feel like people are kind of getting it from the podcast. But. But it is fun to have. I. I was just thinking today how, like, lucky I am that I have people like you guys, that I can be like, yeah, this thing is driving me crazy about work. What do you think? Because I don't think everyone has that, especially directors without podcasts.

2:16

I think the.

2:39

I think there's three or four of them.

2:40

My. I was talking to my brother about job stuff and I was like, dude, I was up for like, 150 things last year. Like, like, imagine if your friend was like, hey, I interviewed for 150 jobs and I got 10 of them.

2:42

Yeah. You know, I actually do think it's kind of a common thing nowadays in the, like.

2:55

Sure, sure. Interviewing, though, I think is actually, like, applying to that many. Absolutely. But, like, interviews, you know, maybe, like, we are. We are just in a different ecosystem, in a different lifestyle, so it's hard to find people who relate to that sort of experience.

2:58

Sometimes even our spouses, for some reason, don't want to hear us complaining anymore and keep asking why they marry us.

3:16

Wanted that toilet paper commercial. So good.

3:21

I haven't done a toilet paper commercial. Charmin. Pretty fun.

3:25

I think you had a bad time on it and we talked about it on the show. Yeah, sorry, Carl.

3:28

I guess I. Yeah, I mean, and this came up because I. I just had a shoot very recently and I called Oren because I was like, man, I just don't totally know what to do. I had, like, not a great experience. It wasn't the worst experience. It wasn't like, this person, you know, dropped a racial slur and I had to fire them. Wasn't like cut and dry, but it was. It was. There was just enough missteps that all together. I just was like, I've worked with them before and I quite like them personally, but I just don't know what I should do, you know, should I call them and talk it out or. Like, I just don't feel, like, super comfortable moving forward with this person. But I also have had a couple other good shoots with them.

3:31

Yeah, no, cut and dry is nice when you have that, because. Easy. But, yeah, easy. You're like, hey, you were supposed to be here and you didn't show up. I mean, when we all moved to LA, we probably hired PAs on Craigslist that just never came. And it's like, we will never hire them again, obviously.

4:16

Yeah.

4:30

But, you know, when they're kind of trying to do a good job, but they aren't doing it either the way you like or kind of up to your standards.

4:30

Right.

4:38

Or just personality wise, they don't fit. So we were going to talk about some of these issues that are common,

4:38

I think also I've talked about this on the show before, but Carlin and I worked together briefly at the end of last year and I saw that Carlin has stepped into her like straight up era. Like, you are just very direct. When you have an issue with something or conflict or just you disagree with a decision, you're just really clear. You do not mince words in a way that I really admire.

4:44

And you know why she's direct.

5:07

She's the director.

5:08

She's the director. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And so I think it's really interesting to have you on to talk about conflict, basically because you do it differently than, you know, than I do. I'm like.

5:09

And you would say, man, but what if Carlin. Carlin's more direct than you?

5:19

Yeah.

5:23

Based on your.

5:23

Absolutely. I, you know.

5:24

Yeah.

5:26

That's so funny too because when we, when we did that project, I was, I was like, what is he talking about? What did I even say? Like, that wasn't even being direct.

5:26

Sure.

5:33

I, I've certainly been more direct and slash, like. Yeah, you're right though. This, this year and last year, I feel like, I don't know, I think, I think for so many years of my career I was like, just be cool. You gotta be to work with. The thing is, and now I trust that I am cool and I am like genuinely a kind person. So now with that baseline, okay, warm it based. But with that baseline, I can, I can trust that I need to trust myself and advocate for what I think is going to make the best project. And so I'm starting to really do that sort of unabashedly, which is our job.

5:34

Right. Like, there's a reason, there's, there's multiple stakeholders, right?

6:07

Yeah.

6:11

A producer is there to keep things on schedule and to keep things, you know, on budget. Right. So if they're worrying about that, your job is to worry about the creative. Right. And so obviously we have to be malleable in certain ways, like the resources of the resources. But I think that too often if you end up caving on something that you believe in, we've all seen how that can really make the end product suffer.

6:11

Absolutely.

6:38

And that's the whole point of why we're there. Right? Yeah.

6:38

I think when you start in this business, you think that you'll get hired again if you're really nice and easy to work with.

6:42

Yeah.

6:47

And you realize at some point you're like, hey, they hired me on all their low budget jobs and once they got a budget, they hired the kind of not that nice person whose work is really good and clearly holds their work up to a much higher standard than I do. Who I'm like, I'm like, I'd like for this to be a dolly shot, but you know what, let's just do the zoom in late.

6:48

Yeah, yeah. And, and just, just for, for your sake, Carlin, you were not mean, you were just very clear in a way. The, the difference being like, yeah, I don't know, I guess we could do it that way. But you know, I'm pretty torn. That's how I would start. And you were like, hey, I don't think it's a good idea to do this and here's why. And you were just very plain. It was not emotionally charged in any way.

7:07

And that's how you guys didn't get

7:30

maybe a tweet, annoyed, but not, not in an. Not. You were not rude or, or difficult in any way. You know, you were just very clear.

7:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

7:38

Matt and I just like were had a conversation at a, with a treatment designer and she does treatments for like the biggest director, like the Most like top 10 top 20 commercial directors. You've definitely heard of all of them. And I was like, so what do they do when they get on the call with the client? Are they like, what, what's the deal? And she's like pretty much across the board. They come on a call and they say, hey, your creative is not very good. This is what it needs to be. And she said they just like booked and shoot and jobs left and right and. Yeah, and I remember, I've probably told the story before, but when Tom and I had co directed a job a couple years ago with Tom Morris and he's just like the nicest guy. Yeah, he, he had me on speakerphone when we were doing our first call with the producer and the agency and deciding where to shoot this thing. And so him and his wife were both hearing me say like, why would we go to. Why would we shoot this in Dallas? There's zero reasons to shoot in Dallas. Let's shoot in LA because we have better crew, we have better locations, we all live here, we can pre scout, we can do all this stuff. And he, Tom said that him and his wife were like, like had their mouths covered and they were shocked by how mean I was. Not mean, but like assertive. I guess I wasn't not taking their suggestion, but yeah. I ended up shooting in LA and they never hired me again. Who knows what happened?

7:40

I think you're leaving out a few details as to why.

8:52

I can't wait to hear. I can't wait to hear the episode with that treatment designer. Exciting.

8:54

Oh, no, that was just a conversation.

8:59

Oh, yeah. It wasn't. Yeah, yeah.

9:01

She did a party.

9:02

We met her at a party. Matt and I. Matt and I go to parties, young people.

9:03

And you don't invite me.

9:06

We should have.

9:08

You know, I did invite you, actually, and you did not come.

9:09

Was I out of town? You didn't invite me.

9:11

It was Rebecca Niles party.

9:13

I was out of town.

9:15

Oh, you were in Mexico. In Mexico. Whatever. So inconvenient. Yeah. You were shooting one country.

9:16

Yeah. Okay.

9:20

Okay.

9:21

So back on track.

9:22

Yeah. So. Well, should I.

9:23

Should. I could also give some exam. I don't know. I could also give examples of, like, what happened.

9:24

Yeah, I think that would be helpful.

9:29

Okay. So on this job, I do feel for this. I'm just gonna. As a producer, I'll just say it because it was a challenging job. Like, it was budget, as. As we all love to say these days, budget challenged. It's a budget challenge. And so I think the other jobs we've worked on together were more simple. Like, they just were one location, kind of more contained cast. And this ended up being two locations. A company moved, 18 actors. Like. Like, it was kind of a bigger job for like a. Well, four leads and then a bunch of background. Okay. So, you know, it was like a. It was like a big job. And so I think the main thing that there was just kind of like sloppiness throughout. Like, I think the big things were taken care of, but consistently details were overlooked.

9:30

I. I don't want to pick on this person specifically, but I am curious about what details you noticed because I. I will often complain about the coffee not being ready.

10:18

Yeah.

10:29

And it's not. Yes, that. It's not that the coffee is important to me. It is. But I drink my coffee on the drive over. It's that it's a red flag that if the thing that's supposed to be

10:29

ready first, the Filmmaking 101, like, then what?

10:40

I can tell that there's. This is the tip of the iceberg and that there are other things that are not ready. And so, like. But that's partially due to my ignorance. The inner machinations of what production is working on, you know. So what did you notice? What was your. What was your first red flag?

10:44

Well, the first red flag and this kind of is piggybacking a little bit off of me being like such a direct. What's the opposite of conflict averse? I'm not like pro conflict, but I have zero problem having tough conversations.

10:59

Streamlining communication I love.

11:10

Yeah, you cut to the quick.

11:13

I cut to the quick. So in the beginning, this budget, this budget was challenging. We were originally going to do a studio build and then like shoot in one part. We're gonna rent like a big space that has a real location. I'm trying to be like sort of big, you know, I'm also like terrible at hiding when I'm talking about. So there's like a real location in one part of the area and then in the other part of the stage we're gonna do like a build. But as conversations with the agency progressed, I got a real bad feeling that we were just never going to be able to live up to this luxury standards with our tiny budget studio build. So I made the a tough call of like, okay, I'm gonna sacrifice like a location move in the middle of the day so that we can go to a real house. Because we just never could get there. Like there's no way with 20 grand or whatever we could build like a beautiful home with dimension and texture and great furniture that we could get if we'd shot in a real house.

11:14

And just to give context to listeners who maybe have never directed like a six or seven figure commercial, you know, dollar commercial. We usually have probably like a 12, 10 or a 12 hour day and a company move.

12:09

Was it 10 or 12? Actually, Garland, just for specifics, was it 10?

12:22

It was. We made it a 12. Yeah, it was, it turned into a 12.

12:25

But, but that 12, a 12 hour day, you're probably shooting for at most 10 hours, right?

12:30

Yeah. And no pre light and pre built,

12:35

you gotta, you gotta stop for lunch. You gotta do all this stuff. Right. So when you commit to a company move, there's like no way unless it literally the house next door, you know, there's no way that you can do it in like less than two hours.

12:38

I'll push back. Even if it's the house. Even if it's the house next door.

12:50

And actually this was very close. This location was.04 miles away. So it was close.

12:53

You have to get into vehicles, right?

12:58

Yeah.

12:59

Once you get into vehicles. Yeah. And so that you're losing 20% of your shooting hours, maybe more by committing to a company move. That's why I think when you do a small indie Film or you're doing like a montage or a tourism spot and you're like, hey, we're going to shoot seven locations today, but you're sending, you know, here's two actors. We're gonna shoot this at golden hour. And here's like a grip with a bounce board.

13:00

Right.

13:19

It's not the same as moving an entire 20 person client and agency video village a lot that, you know, and all the coffee that Matt needs, the appropriate bean, roasted beans or whatever. It's. Yeah, so. So it's a huge sacrifice to do a company move on a commercial.

13:19

Yes. But I made the decision based on the fact that I thought, you know, I'm just following my gut here. I don't. I feel like we're setting ourselves up for failure. No one' happy with the build. Like, it's just. We're just gonna have to do the move. And then. But leading up to that conversation, I feel like this producer kept being like, I'll just talk to them. Don't worry about it. Don't worry, I'll talk, I'll figure it. I'll talk to them. And I was like, I started and then I would trust them to do that and then I would still get confusing information back. And I was like, put me on the phone with them. Like, I will have this conversation. I will talk to them, I will make a case. And then I did everything that I could. If they still choose to do the build or whatever, then like. But we get on the phone, I give them my pitch, and they're immediately like, yeah, whatever Carlin says, like, that's fine. You know, so it kind of started off like a little like the communication was a. Was a problem. That's one of my.

13:36

To be fair, I'm not saying. I think it sounds like this person did drop the ball and didn't communicate it as clearly as you wanted. Sometimes we do have to be aware of the status and privilege that directors have in pitching things. Like, one person could have pitched it literally the exact same way that you do. And then you step in and they're like, oh, Carlin's cool. And we hired Carlin and the Carlin's vision and all that stuff. And they, they just hear it differently. Right. So, yeah, so that, that's another reason to want to do it. Not because you don't trust them, but because, you know, it's different coming from the director.

14:25

100%. I always say on set to different departments, I'm like, if there's something sticky that you really Need. I will pitch it. Because they are way more likely to say yes to me. So that was sort of like in prep. And then, you know, we would get to. We get to like the agency dinner. And, you know, was involved in. I'm sort of like, getting more. I don't know. Also this year, I've been more into our jobs. Is like client services. Right. And Orange knows. And so I. I've been kind of jealous of your. Yeah. I've been kind of involved in the gifts that we give people. I think they're important. And I think sometimes you can be a great director. You have a great spot. But if you have. If you get them, like a cool. Like, it's the other job. We got the girls in Mexico, like, this expensive perfume that they were eyeing. And I heard them talking about, but they're like, oh, I can't spend the money. And I was like, texting my producer, these are perfumes to buy these. And we put them as a gift in their hotel room. And they were.

15:01

Gift in the hotel room.

15:56

Yes. It's a good move. And they are. And so for this job, I wanted to continue this and be like, we picked up very specific gifts for them and we get to the agency dinner, and we're kind of like seeing if they like the gifts and, well, this person. Oh, I do. Oh, I haven't put the bags together. Oh, I'm just going to give it to them on set. And I was like, I have a

15:58

whole plan and you're kind of unintentionally derailing it.

16:14

And.

16:18

Right. You've learned that, like, perfumes are such a perfect gift, not only because it's what they wanted, but also, like, the catch a width of them smell themselves and they're reminded, like, oh, Carlin's so thoughtful. This production is going so well.

16:18

A factory genius.

16:31

Yeah.

16:32

Yeah. This. There's, like, a specific part of the gift that, you know, we wanted to include because it had to do with the product and the thing that we're talking about. And I just would be like, it was just like a fun, special gift on top of, like, the imposter merch and, like, hotel room snacks. And that was just like. It's a. Stuff like. That kept happening. Like, at the fitting, my costume designer didn't have racks. Nobody. Nobody let her in early. And they were like. She was like, where are the racks? And they're like, I don't know where the racks are. And stuff. Like details like that, you know, we're

16:33

like, that add up. That add up and make.

17:02

Make you look bad, which isn't. It's not personally important. Like, I just want to preface. It's like all of these things that we're talking about. It's not like you actually care about how good the client smells or, you know, oh, are we five minutes behind? It's not that big a deal. But it's all, to your point, a client services experience. Because we all know that no one knows how good the commercial is or isn't when they've wrapped. Right. We think that shots maybe look good or like, it was really nice in the moment, except for the director, or they're unsure. They decide whether it was a good shooter or not. At the most, halfway in could be much earlier.

17:06

Right.

17:48

So are they vibing with you? Are they having a good time? Do they feel safe? Do they feel like things are running smoothly? That's the stuff that they report back to their bosses. And in this era of holding companies, there are only so many agencies, there's only so many people that we get to work with. And so if you blow a relationship or blow the opportunity to improve a relationship, which is what you're really getting at, that means significant changes to our livelihood and to the success of the entire company that you're working with.

17:49

Right.

18:20

Your friends, you want those people all to work.

18:20

Yeah. And the crazy thing is when you pitch on a job, you are pitching yourself with a company. Right. And so let's say that company hired wardrobe assistant that forgot to show up, that showed up late and didn't let the wardrobe person in and didn't have the racks. And it would. You can't. When that happens, you as the director can't say, like, oh, sorry, the wardrobe assistant messed up. They suck.

18:23

Yeah.

18:45

They represent you.

18:46

Yeah.

18:47

They're part of your sales pitch. So when someone that's not you messes up this client service relationship, it's on you. Right?

18:47

Yeah. And I really, again, I'm like, really making it a concerted effort. Like, even this agency was talking how much they love sourdough bread. And I go, oh, have you had Bubs and Grandma on the east side of la? And they've never heard of it. And so I woke up early before PM and fittings day to get them fucking bubs and grandma bread. And producer was like, well, I can send a pa And I was like, I don't trust you. Yeah, I don't need you to do it.

18:55

And so listen, I'm going to be like, oh, I like that painting. It's really cool. See what happens.

19:18

Like, I also.

19:22

Carlin, I love your dog.

19:23

Yeah, here she is. You can have her.

19:24

Or terriers for Matt. I would love to see that, actually.

19:27

Yeah. So, yeah, I think. I think that, like, in particular, this job for me, the two problems were communication and. And there's all the departments were complaining to me too. Like, they just had a hard time getting hold of this person's team. And so, you know, the makeup artist calls me and says, hey, I'm so sorry to bother you, but I can't get a hold of them. And like, what are we shooting?

19:30

Yeah, I'm like, right, yeah, right.

19:52

Are you kidding me? You know, so there's. It was.

19:54

Yeah, yeah. It's funny.

19:57

You know what?

19:58

A good producer has, like, a ton of foresight. Right. They're seeing the things. They're like, hey, you mentioned that one thing about maroon shirts, you know, on the call, offhandedly. Is that something you want me to look into? You know, they're like, gathering things and staying one step ahead of you. Yeah, yeah. And then when they. You're trying. You're just trying to get them to just be the responsible for the normal things. And it does. I was kind of trying to think about how this applies to people other than producers.

19:58

Oh, that's a good point.

20:21

Matt and I always talk about, like, PAs. Like, the best PAs are ones that are, like, just going around looking to see if trash needs to be empty.

20:22

Yeah.

20:29

They're getting the set clean. They're not just, like, waiting. And it's basically being proactive is kind of like the number one way that you can. Or even looking ready with a pa.

20:29

If you're. If you're PA right now and you're listening to this, like, look like you're working. Not. Not like, oh, look for, like, be sweeping or whatever. I'm saying just, like, be there and, like, be alert. Because, like, we've all seen, like, two PA bros. You know, one of them doesn't have sleeves and they're both just, like, joking. Right.

20:39

Yeah. I'm not on a comedy side.

20:59

I'm not saying don't have fun. I'm saying it looks like you guys are off, and I think there's probably some stuff that needs to be done.

21:01

Yeah.

21:08

You know what I mean? Or just stand next to the person who's going to tell you what to do and then fuck around. I want to. I. I want to be the cool guy who comes over and makes some jokes with you.

21:09

But, like, you know, sorry, I'm just cutting you And I just think again, like, I keep going back to this whole detail oriented thing, but that does apply to all departments, right? It's like you can light a scene that looks nice or, you know, it's like this beautifully lit kind of even space. But then when there's little spotlights that could make the difference between something looking like 80% good or like 100% special, you know, or like in wardrobe, you know, like accessories matter, textures matter, fabrics matter. Like those, those little things in all departments actually add up to elevating our craft in a big way. We all prefer things a certain way, like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences upfront, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instacart get groceries just how you like.

21:18

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

22:19

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

22:41

What if you laughed all through your commute? Or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym? Well, now you can. I'm Jameela Jamil and guests on my new podcast Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like May Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg, Penn Badgley, and so many more. So listen, wherever you get your podcast. Wrong Terms, where dignity goes to die.

22:49

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

23:20

I just had a shoot where the camera operator, the Steadicam operator came to set and had not looked at the storyboards, you know, and it was like one of those scouts where we. Everyone had the printed out storyboards in the morning, including him. And this was like halfway through the day. And he still. I was like, so you saw the boards? He's like, no, just tell me what happened, you know, and you're like, dude,

23:30

I like spent so much time on those boards. Like, it's okay if you're like, hey, I saw the boards and I still don't get it. That's totally.

23:51

Yeah, no, yeah, Oh, I have a question. Or. Oh, shoot. I didn't have the board. Sorry.

23:57

Frankly, that's not even. That's better than fine. That's really good. I want you to be thoughtful enough to, like, ask the question. If you're unclear in some way, that's awesome.

24:01

But not looking at the boards as an instant, like, I'm not gonna. Because I'm making this for you. And I think. Sorry. The other thing I was point that I was gonna bring up, kind of related to what client. What Carlin was saying is that. And this is gonna sound kind of not cool, but our crew, especially the crew that we hire, like, we're their client, you know, like, they. They need to do client services for us. So if the DP is not looking at the script before the tech scout, you know, if the cost, the makeup artist is like, you know, what are we shooting? I have no idea how many people I have. And they're on set that morning, then they have lost our. Our. We want them to try to impress us in the way that we're trying to impress our clients. Right.

24:09

Yeah, it's. It's impressive, maybe a different word than I would use. I want to trust them. Right. Which is what we're really talking about. Because if we know that they've got it covered, then if they do make a mistake, it's not a big deal. Right. Like, we all know this is a really hard job and this is really demanding. So, like, mistakes are going to happen. None of us are upset about mistakes.

24:50

No.

25:12

But there's a. There's a big difference between phoning it in or not paying attention and making an honest mistake. Right. The other thing that I keep thinking about through all of this, Carlin, is that whether it's a producer or hair and makeup or wardrobe or whomever, all our departments heads make very active decisions on who they hire to support them.

25:12

Yeah.

25:32

And. And one of the things I love the most about the production side of filmmaking is, like, there is real apprenticeship in a way that I don't see in other businesses in quite the same way. And it's really special. And so when you see a department head that hires someone that they can depend on, you know that the baseline is covered so that they can do the special stuff. Right. And so a lot of what you were alluding to, Oren, of like, oh, being detail oriented. If a producer has hired an awesome coordinator.

25:33

Yeah.

26:03

Then they're not thinking about payroll or any of the other stuff. All the machinations that I said, I was like a Little ignorant of. They get to do the special stuff. They get to add that extra sauce on top. But if they didn't hire somebody who's awesome or they didn't do a good job training that person and this.

26:04

I think these people were really burnt out and overworked and maybe tripled book. Triple, double, triple.

26:24

100.

26:29

Get it? We're all freelance. But you have to do not say yes to a job unless you can do it well or well enough.

26:31

And I think we all do that. Right. It doesn't matter if we're getting a hundred thousand dollars or a hundred dollars. Once we commit to a job, we're gonna push as hard as we can to make it as good as it can be.

26:40

1000% even. You know, I did this like, favor job for Gray and like the New York festivals and whatever. I made a treatment. I did storyboard. I did everything and I got paid nothing. You know what I mean? I did it for fun and I gave it my all because I was like, if I'm gonna commit to this, I'm gonna do it. And like, they were so impressed. And I just thought, well, how crazy would that be if I said yes to this thing and I just half assed it.

26:50

Just didn't do it.

27:15

Yeah.

27:16

Yeah.

27:16

Kind of being flaky is probably the worst thing that you can be if you want to move up in this business.

27:17

Yeah.

27:22

Are there any other things that people might do that will make you not hire them again?

27:23

And where do I begin? Yeah. I mean, Yeah. I think going back to what Matt said about mistakes, I think we. We all make mistakes. It's. It's inevitable. Just. Just admit it and own it. And then I can. I'm. I'm really. I'm like, not a person who holds grudges at all. I really am very quick to forgive people as long as they say, oh man, I fucked that up. My bad.

27:27

That's on me.

27:48

Next.

27:49

Yeah.

27:49

Yeah. Has no problem. Has. Have you ever hired or worked with people that just aren't very experienced, that are kind of newer, greener, and that that's kind of the reason that they're not good. Like they're kind of at a different level in their career than the project demands?

27:50

Yes. And I actually think maybe this is what you were teeing me up to say. But almost always the thing that to me tips someone off to being green is that they act like they know more than they do.

28:04

Yeah. Yeah. The number one tell.

28:14

The number one tell.

28:18

They don't ask questions. Yeah.

28:19

The older we all get. And the more experience we all get, the more you can admit that I have no clue what I'm doing and I'm learning every day.

28:20

And it's way easier when you have a reel of like when you've had logged a thousand days on set too.

28:27

Yeah, yeah.

28:32

But when you've logged four days on set, then you might be embarrassed to say, like, I don't know, like, what?

28:34

You know, hey, I'm kind of embarrassed to ask this because maybe I should already know, but X, Y and Z. And then I tend to. Then I think that was charming. You know, I'd be like, oh, great. Yeah.

28:39

And also people kind of. There's so many subdivisions of filmmaking that like, maybe if you came up in music videos and this is your first commercial, there are going to be things that are different. And that's totally okay.

28:49

Yeah, yeah. But I will say I think it's not. I want our listeners to know, especially newer people in this industry to know that that is usually not a reason that we are like, don't want to hire someone again is inexperienced. Because people I think might think that. But the only time for me it happens is like, really with actors sometimes, you know, we'll audition someone, client agency, love them because they have the exact right look and they were charming as they were walking into the room, you know. But once the camera turns on, they just cannot really. They just don't have the confidence to just deliver the same thing over and over. Take notes, do little things. And like a lot of my notes in casting, especially non union is like, feels green, you know, and like, I want them to learn how to hit marks and stuff on somebody else's side.

29:00

Yeah. Hitting marks, I think, is one thing. I think Carlin, this kind of echoes your point about the asking questions. When actors think that they need to be perfect on the first take or second take, that's the real thing that's bothersome to me. And when they start spiraling, it's like, no, we're going to do this a bunch of. So like, don't worry about it. We're gonna do it a bunch of different ways. And you don't know what's good or not, frankly, because we're still figuring it all out, you know.

29:43

And also we've all worked with actors that take one. You're like, damn, we could. We could move on.

30:08

Yeah, but it's not a problem if I need to take a second take.

30:13

Yeah.

30:18

Third take.

30:18

Yeah.

30:19

Or a fifth take. It's a problem when you seize up because of it. That's the issue.

30:20

Yeah, totally.

30:25

Yeah. What do you. What was something that really gets under your skin?

30:26

Well, the one other thing that you mentioned, Carlin, is like, sometimes you. Sometimes.

30:30

Welcome to my life, Carlin.

30:34

I was trying to really teed me up. Are you on this podcast? Sure. Do you want to take. Do you want to.

30:35

No, no. After you, Carlin, because. Or after you?

30:39

Or after. Well, because. Well, I was going to bring something up that Carlin brought before we started recording, which is some people, especially when you've hired them a few times in the past, they kind of feel like entitled to getting the job. And. And I know, Matt, you were kind of turned off by me using the word impressed. But, like, that people should be trying to impress us in the way that we're trying to impress our clients.

30:42

But we.

31:02

But it's in. We as much as it's a business and we are selling toilet paper or whatever. Like, we're. It's still. There is an art and a craft and we want to climb to the top of it and. And impress. We want to impress people and we want to like. I love it when my DP is like, I've got this gaffer that's got this incredible rig. Can we show you this lighting change? And we. I just had to shoot on Thursday. Not like a budget talent sh. My DPs like, do you want. We set this thing up where the lights kind of spin at the end for the intro part. Do you want to do that? And it was like the agency and client came in, like, after we shot, and they're like, we weren't even expecting those spinning lights. That was so awesome. Thanks for doing that, Oren. And I'm like, you're welcome. But like, how then they do look good. Yeah, yeah. Tell my DP like, hey, bring that gaffer again, you know?

31:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And impressed. It's not a semantics thing. It's like, it's about being committed and being excited to be there for sure. And, like, I think that. I think what we're talking about is that that's the. That's the standard that we're all committed to. Right? Like, we are all playing pro ball. Like.

31:46

Yeah.

32:05

Be being a commercial director or just an active filmmaker in Los Angeles, especially in these days, means that you have to be ready to bring it. And when you take that for granted, it's a bummer. It's a bummer.

32:05

And I want to stress that every position can impress. Like, when I did this shoot in Seattle, a few weeks ago, we. One of the grips. I don't even think he was like, the dolly. He was not the key grip or anything. Had built this rig where we can connect our camera to, like, a bowling ball shooter, you know, that we can roll down the lane and then slow down and the ball can keep going. And he was, like, showing it to us, like, you know, before we got to that shot. It's like, hey, do you guys think this will work? And he, like, demoed it in the, like, hotel ballroom. And we're like, yes.

32:18

When that stuff happens, it is. It's the spice of life. It's why we do it. Like, when you see a fellow craftsperson bring it in a way that's exciting and impressive and unique, and you see

32:47

they're enjoying it or just nailing the

33:01

thing that we do every single day. You could, like, be stoked on, like, a perfect dolly move or, like, an awesome book. Light it. Like, it gets. That's. That's why we're here. I'm getting high thinking about it.

33:03

You know what I love is a Steadicam operator where you're like, okay, let's do a take. Just do. Can you think of the coolest thing you've ever done with your Steadicam and just do it for this shot? You know?

33:14

Yeah.

33:23

Like. Like, you bring me some ideas on how to move the camera, since you're the expert at it.

33:24

You know, I'm curious if somebody does something awesome and the client says, oh, hey, Oren, awesome job. What do you. What do you two say?

33:28

I almost. I almost always try to give people credit. I think whenever I've. I feel like when I was coming up in my career and when I saw people doing that, it made me think, like, what a cool, confident person that they can share credit. And I want to be like that, too. You know, I want to be, like, so competent in my craft that I can totally give anybody their flowers, even if it's a PA who had the idea, you know, I hope I do that. That's my hope. I'm like, you know, you can also

33:36

own it by saying, like, yeah, we hired this amazing dp, you know?

34:05

Yeah, they're the best.

34:09

I'm so stoked we brought this cool team.

34:10

Well, even on our shoot, that didn't happen. Matt. It wasn't me that had the idea to change something to, like, the LED mask that was going to come off of this celeb space. It was some kind of random person. I think the client was like, we love that. And I was like, oh, it was like Sarah's idea. Isn't that cool? I remember saying that. And I was like, oh, I'm glad. That's who I want.

34:13

Glad you said that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason I ask, I think that you, you too, I'm assuming, are very good at that. I always word that it's like accidentally self deprecating. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think.

34:31

Well, you shouldn't say, like, it wasn't my idea. Mikey, for sure, sure, sure, sure.

34:42

Yeah, yeah.

34:47

But I think that this is exactly why it's important when people are not meeting our expectations on set that we try to not hire them. You know, not, not. Or to, or sometimes just like take a break from them and see who else will do it. Right. Yes. Correct teeth.

34:49

I, I'll say. My. There's a reason I saved my. My pet peeve is like, I'm trying to think of how to phrase this without sounding like a complete egomaniac as a white straight male with a podcast who can't wait.

35:05

It's not a very popular podcast. Don't worry.

35:15

Yeah, sure. That, at least there's that true. I, it, it bothers me when I, when people underestimate or second guess my experience. Do you know what I mean? Like, we've all been doing this for a while now and it's not that I, I want people to push back for sure. Absolutely. But I guess when I get the sense that they don't know where I'm coming from, it can, it can bother me a little bit.

35:17

Can you give an example?

35:44

Yeah, yeah.

35:46

Like when, when you're on like smaller jobs, right, where like the, maybe the people that they work with haven't. This is their second or third rodeo and not their 95th rodeo. And you're kind of like, no, I'm explaining. I'm right, I'm, I'm telling you I'm right. And, and, and it's just kind of a little bit out of their, their situation. Like I, for example, there was one time I was working with a new producer, didn't really know me and we had, it was a, we were shooting. The final deliverable was vertical. We were trying. We only had a certain number of cameras and this and that. And there was a lot of different talking heads. And I was like, these people are in a panel. I can shoot horizontally and shoot at a higher aspect resolution, aspect ratio resolution, and get three singles out of this one wide. And the producer was like, no, it's vertical. You can't shoot horizontal. And I was just like, honestly, I short circuited in trying to explain to him. I was like, what? And eventually I just was. I had to go around him and be like, hey, dp, who I you guys have worked with a bunch of times, this is what I'd like to do. And he was like, oh yeah, that's actually a really good idea. Now we have two other cameras we can use for other things.

35:46

Yeah. And it's like, you don't need to be.

36:54

I'm getting mad thinking about it again.

36:56

Yeah. You know, well, that's just like, yeah, that person to have so little self awareness of like, you're the director, this is your job. And then also it's so confidently and

36:58

also just it was the thing. And it was just one on one too. So like no one else was there to witness or. Or kind of like you couldn't read the room. It couldn't be like, oh, and maybe Matt is right. Or. Or maybe the opposite where I'm realizing, oh, I am taking crazy pills and was misunderstood. But if you boil it down to I said I want to shoot horizontal, but the deliverable is vertical on just without any other understanding or context. I understand that that is sounds wrong. Right. But as soon as you understand it half a step deeper, it immediately falls apart. And it was just like infuriating.

37:11

Yeah. And a great producer would say, okay, cool, let's talk to the dp, you know, in post and see if that's an option or not, you know, and instead of saying no, I had this thing last week on a shoot. No one was really pushing back, but I wanted to. We were shooting like a wide, a medium and a close of a person like walking and talking to the camera. And I wanted to start with the medium shot. And everyone's like, why on earth would you start with the medium shot? It's, you know, you always start with the wide shot. We figure out the lighting, we figure out the art. And then we go. And I was like, look, this commercial. First of all, our wide shot is kind of sucks. Like we have some art issues. We don't have enough curtains to cover this thing. Like, I know for a fact that this client is the main shot of this spot is the medium shot.

37:46

Right.

38:32

Let's get this shot right.

38:32

I want this prioritize it. It's like a celebrity, the agency, the client to instantly when we turn on the monitor for them to be like, ooh, we like this. And I know that if we start with the wide shot, it's going to be like, why is this here and why. I have to explain to them what we're going to change in post now. We're going to reframe this and an open gate and like, all this stuff. Like, if we start with the medium, they'll be happy. And then. And also, I think we'll get the best performance. We'll figure out the lighting. And honestly, like, I want to build the wide around the medium because the medium is the hero shot here. It's like a walk and talk medium. And everyone's like, okay, cool. But I think it does help to, you know, when we've done the reps and when you don't have to be technical to be a director. But it helps, like in your situation, Matt, to say, like, what's the vertical resolution? 1920, right?

38:33

Yeah, exactly.

39:14

Like, we're shooting 2300, whatever, you know.

39:15

Right.

39:18

And to be fair, I was, like, so caught off guard that I could hardly articulate. I was like, I couldn't believe. It just seemed like an obvious yes. That, like, when there was pushback.

39:18

Right.

39:29

I was just like, well, now my head is spinning. I think the other thing that's hard for other crew members to understand is that unlike most of the other departments, we have to deal with the ramifications of these decisions. And also we're there for all of those internal conversations in advance of that. So we know we have the context of understanding what the client likes and dislikes. And then also we've shot a bunch of. And had to see how that pays off in the edit.

39:30

Yeah, right. So, like, no, actually way more about post than most line producers.

40:00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Most line producers don't have to do post at all. Right. Or in the back of the house for all of it. And that's not a. That's not a flex or a brag. That's just like the experience of having to live with the consequences of all of these decisions. Right.

40:05

I guess I also would want to think about, if I were in the position of receiving feedback, would I be open to that? And I could. Could I hear it and not be defensive?

40:23

Right.

40:33

I hope I could. In a similar way, I think.

40:33

I think that's the problem is we're all. I'm sure all three of us are very worried about people's feelings, which I think is a. Is a right way to approach life in relationships.

40:36

Right.

40:46

And to be a nice person.

40:46

But I think it's worse, I guess, like, when I was single. So it was a long time ago when I would date you. I remember that my friends thought it was crazy that I would go on a date and I would tell them sort of the truth or some version of the truth, which I would. Instead of just ghosting, which I just hate, I would be like, hey, so great to meet you. Not feeling the love connection, but, you know, best of luck. Thanks for hanging out. And like 75% of the time, it got a pretty good response. And one out of four times, people were pretty defensive.

40:47

Well, yeah, Nobody wants to hear, hey, you're not my type, you know, But

41:14

I'm like, but I may not be your type either, you know?

41:19

Sure. No, also, ghosting sucks.

41:21

Ghosting sucks. Even if you're not my type, I still want to feel like I'm, you know, I'm saying there's a human reaction when someone says, like, hey, you were awesome. But for this next job, we found a better fit. I remember Matt one time Cara auditioned for something that he was directing, and then he was like, almost always cast Cara. Actually, no, it was for the sleep. Like a sleep competition. Funny host or something. And you're like, yeah, we. We ended up going a different direction. And I was like, like, God damn it, different direction? What the hell does that mean? Which, it's a 100 unacceptable thing. But I think we just have to accept. And as directors, we get rejected so much.

41:23

You hated me saying we went in a different direction.

41:59

We wanted more specific.

42:01

I didn't hate you. I just. You love your wife. I'm just saying in the most innocent way possible. Like, it still hurts a little bit. And so we need to accept that when we say to a dp, that's like one of our best friends or whatever, hey, I'm going to try someone else this next time. Like, we can't not expect them to have their feelings hurt, you know?

42:03

Yeah, yeah.

42:21

And I think the best thing we can do is be honest with them and be like, hey, this is. This is why, you know, if you had that. And. And, you know, I guess one other solution that Carl and Matt and I have been kind of talking about is, like, the subtle hints, the, like, showing. And I do. I actually do an. I do this thing with producers recently, ever since Matt and Jordan, Brandy convinced me that, like, producers can really, like, help my life in a good way. I've been. I. I talk to producers about what I like in produce, about producers, you know, and I find it helps. And I. I tell them, like, hey, I worked with this producer in Canada, Jeff, that every evening would send me an email saying, hey, this is what's on the calendar for tomorrow. And it's what? So what's on the calendar for the next day?

42:22

A dream.

43:04

You have an 11am meeting. Here's the Google Meet. We have a Zoom with the agency in the evening. If there's an optional dinner, you can come and not come.

43:05

Oh man, after the shoot is incredible. Right? Because you're like, you're in your hotel room and you're like, am I supposed to be hanging out with people?

43:12

Right. Because I have to see a movie. Are like, you know, hey, I shared the calendar with you. And you're like, yes, I have 8, 000 calendars shared with me. I've never.

43:20

And also the calendar is an Excel sheet that, that has changed a couple times. Delivery. Yeah.

43:28

Yeah. So I was like, I would love it. You're like, if that's not your style, don't do it. It's fine, I can take care of. But that, that's a thing that you can do. And we know, we talked about on the podcast. Kelly, one of my favorite producers, he orders lunch for me when I'm doing Zoom callbacks. It's so it, it's such a nice thing and it is kind of built into the budget when you do in person callbacks anyway. Yeah. And it just makes my days 10 times better. That second half of the day is like a thousand percent better because he does that. So I like to tell people, because not everyone knows that. It's not like there's a producing manual or school or no way. And I think with DPS, I tell, I tell first ACs all the time. Like when wherever you put the monitor, put it as close as humanly possible to the set, the camera. And the worst possible thing you can do is orient it in a way where I'm looking away from set.

43:36

Yeah.

44:26

You know, I must, you must orient it in a way where I can look above the monitor and see the actors.

44:26

I'm always, I like me too. And I get, I think actually, honestly, like a little like actually claustrophobic. Not just me being picky, but like, I think it does physically bother me in a way when I don't have clear egress to set. So like I, I, I should be better about telling people what I'm looking for or what I need. But like, if I have to like walk through a bunch of, if I can't just get to the actors, it physically bothers me in a way that makes me anxious.

44:30

Now they put my chair somewhere and I Move the chair. And they go, oh, you don't need to move the chair. And I put it where I want to sit. And then they move the rest of the shit over.

45:00

I don't ever sit. I know. Carlin. You. I don't know if you actually sit a lot, but on your set, your Instagram use, you're in a director's chair a lot. Just like, I never sit there. Like, where should we put the chair? I'm like, get that chair out of here.

45:07

Well, but basically I go like this and I stand and then I go like this. And I say, I'm like, constant. I'm like sitting and standing the whole day.

45:18

Yeah. Like, I think you're getting at, like, where you're putting the chairs is the marker for dropping a flag on this is where my village needs to be.

45:25

But according to Oren, I'm just sitting down screaming at the act behind monitor.

45:34

No, no, I just don't like to. Literally the act of getting up and down, I don't like.

45:39

That's why the tall chair is so nice.

45:44

Maybe it's because your feet dangle hard for me. Yeah, my feet are nice, but that short. What was I gonna say? The. Oh, there's this trend, I think for a while I was like, can I have a portable monitor? Because, you know, especially with art direction, you want to be in. I know. Now everyone's always handing me this portable monitor with a giant battery. It weighs like 80 pounds.

45:47

Yeah.

46:05

And I'm always losing it and I don't know where to put it down.

46:05

You put it on your shoulder and then like, it brushes against you and like goes into some other mode and you have to go walk over to

46:08

the AC and there's like a lot happening, you know?

46:16

Yeah, yeah. So look, I, I, we're, we're really in the director baby zone here. But I think what we're, what we're getting at though, is that the more detail oriented we can all be, the better the whole thing is.

46:19

And it's communicating to our people what we want from them. Right.

46:35

Yeah.

46:40

Sorry, Keep going.

46:41

People can't read minds, right? And that is something we all learn in relationships, romantic and otherwise. Like, you cannot expect someone to guess what you want. And so that is, I think, the trick, at least for this producer that I just had. I did drop some hints and it didn't work. So. So I have to decide, do I want to have like a heart to heart with this person? Do I just let my eps deal with it? I don't know.

46:41

Right. So. And do you talk to the the worst conversation to have is to tell someone like, hey, we're letting you go. But the second worst conversation to have is to tell someone like, hey, please don't hire this person who's your friend again.

47:06

I know. Yeah, I, at least in my case, I would be open to hearing this person's perspective on, like, how it went for them. Because I'm sure there's things that I don't know and I'm sure there's stuff that even my company did to make their life harder. You know what I mean? I don't know the ins and outs. And I'm open to hearing them because maybe I could help, too.

47:18

Hi everyone, this is Karim, the voice of Simon Fairchild from the Magnus archives, and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. Some things quietly drain you like an expensive phone bill, trapping your money month after month. Here's a quick money tip. Stop paying a carrier tax when you bring your own phone and switch to boost Mobile's $25 Unlimited Forever plan. You can unlock up to $600 in savings. That's money that belongs in your life, not trapped in a phone bill. Reclaim those savings for something you're actually into an EMF meter, a thermal camera, or whatever strange corner of the universe you're currently exploring. Visit boostmobile.com to unlock your savings and take back control. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan. Boost Mobile January 2026 survey comparing average annual payments of AT&T, Verizon and T mobile customers to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Plan. For details, visit boostmobile.com this episode is

47:39

brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game, shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out well? With the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill, too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

48:32

Carlin to your point about like, oh, the customer service of it all, what I'm really hearing is that you're stepping into a certain type of producing right, like that that's left forward. You're talking about like, oh, this is kind of like EP shit that you're doing and like, each of us steps into a part of producing, the more experience we, we get. Right. Like, you understand, like, the big picture of it all. You want to control it and do the way you want to do it. Right. And so that leads us to, like, I will literally, I send every new producer that I work with a spreadsheet of, like, in, in order of preference, the crew members that I want to hire. And I'm talking sound guys on that list. DPs, like, we, they always talk to us about the department heads, but, like, I'll get pretty specific.

49:03

Yeah.

49:48

And it's because of all the things that we're talking about here. It's like, oh, I know that this is going to run cohesively and that the attitudes are going to be good and that these people all work well together. It's not the same spreadsheet for every single job. You have to kind of, you know, build it out in a way, but it's all to the the same end of, like, trying to make something that's seamless and easy and fun. And it's not just your friends. It's. It's the people who you like because they do really great work. Oh, and I was gonna say, the other trick to all of this is that as directors, we're insulated from a lot of this stuff. Right.

49:49

Like you were leaving stuff.

50:23

You don't know, like what, what circumstances. That producer.

50:24

Totally.

50:28

People like to think of us as like, fancy artistes. Yeah, but the more you produce, the more you want to know that stuff. Right.

50:30

Matt and I were both on shoots that flipped recently in the last couple few years and did not even know it until after the shoot. Yeah, that's like a good knowing about.

50:36

Yeah, Yeah.

50:45

I was on one in St. Louis that flipped maybe two years ago. And I, I, they were trying not to tell me, but I'm like, something is going on. Those things are happening. There's a guy walking around with a clipboard, angrily, I've never seen. I was like, something. And he's like, we're getting flipped.

50:46

And I was like, okay. Well. And at least, right.

51:00

You're like, okay, got it. Next.

51:04

I am like, my wife calls me the Hawk. I'm always like, suspicious seeing things. Yeah. You know what I mean?

51:06

What do they call, like, that blonde woman that's, like, outside in the neighborhood, suspicious of everything.

51:10

Hold on, hold on. I might be a Karen, but being a hog at a Karen, you just,

51:17

you, you call him like you see him, Carlin. That's all you're not conflict averse to the manager. I don't know about you all, but

51:21

for me, I do think what I've kind of gotten from this conversation and the conclusion, and I think the learning lesson for me is, yes, it's easy to be, like, annoyed by people that we work with. I think our job, especially as directors, as people that try to be direct when they can, is to, like, tell people as early as possible how you like things. Especially since we. Even if this is just your third short film or whatever, you have enough experience to be like, hey, this is the way I like things.

51:29

I want to rephrase it the way I like things. The spirit is exactly right, but it's not about personal preference. It's like, hey, this is how we can engineer this all to work as well as possible. This is how I work relative to all of these other people. So, like, to keep things streamlined, this is what I recommend. You know what I mean? It's not like I like it because I think I don't want this to be like, you know, again, like, directors get treated a different way. And it's not because I want two pumps of vanilla syrup in my latte. It's like, no, I just need caffeine so that I can get things going. But we all can go home sooner.

51:53

You know, two pumps is valid. Like, I tell people, I'm like, listen, I just have a. I have a coffee every afternoon, like, after. After 2:30pm and most. That's weird to people. A lot of people don't drink coffee, like, in the afternoon. And I'm like, if I do not drink that, I will get guaranteed a headache, like a migraine. Like, so I know it's weird. It's not something you need to do on every set or whatever, but can I just. Can we just have some sort of hot coffee? Yeah, after 2:30pm that's from. That's a thing. It's not because I like it, because for fun, it's. That's like you said, Matt, like, how things can run smoothly. And I think, to me, when the people we say these things to just drop the ball, they don't do it. They phone it in. They feel entitled to get their things, even though they're not kind of working hard for it. That's when it's okay to be like, hey, you can, you know, kind of give them, like, hey, can we do this next time? And. But once it's like two strikes, kind of. To me, that's like when you hire the next person or you can do what Matt wrote as his advice on our Google Doc, which is stay quiet, let it fester, and never talk to them again.

52:31

Yeah.

53:30

Yeah, that is an option.

53:31

Awesome. Yeah. I think Carlin used the word listener question in a different way than we've ever used it. The phrase. But I think you. You use it as in a question we're asking our listeners.

53:34

Yeah.

53:45

But, yeah, I think if you. I'm curious what people think, what reasons they've had to kind of break up with collaborators and the receiving end of

53:46

one, like, how did that feel? You know, if you could. If you could engineer it, have either of you two.

53:55

Do you feel like for sure.

54:01

Oh, you have.

54:03

Or for sure as a filmmaker? We've. I've had clients that I pitched on, won the job, and then pitched on again the next year and lost the job, you know, and you. And I had a. I did the serve pro spot that I loved. I'm really. It's like one of my favorite things I did.

54:03

Yeah.

54:16

And when they were doing more servpro spots, the agency, and who knows how true this is or not, but supposedly they told my EP at the time. I saw the boards because everyone's like, oren, they're doing more serpro. Same agency. And I called my ep, I was like, hey, are we in on this? And he's like, oren, yeah, weird thing. I talked to them. They said that they. They felt like you didn't really bring much to the concept, so they want to go with someone else. And I was like, okay.

54:17

You know, that's. That's a dead eye situation. That they should not have said that to you.

54:38

I have a feeling they didn't like my EP and that they used it as an excuse.

54:44

Yeah.

54:47

Oh, interesting.

54:48

He has since been kicked out of almost every company he's worked at.

54:48

Oh, right. Okay. I mean, I've. I think I've used this example before, but I lost a job once that I really thought it was to a director now at art class that I. This is years ago, but I really was like, I have the best. I had the best call. I just was like, it was one of those jobs happens all the time. Maybe I'm delusional, but I'm like, how did I lose this job? And they were actually. The producer was actually honest with me and she said this other director just had a better treatment, and so that's okay.

54:52

That I can.

55:19

That's okay. And so I saw their treatment. I go, fuck, that's a good treatment.

55:19

They.

55:23

They really crushed.

55:23

How did you see the treatment because

55:24

it was one of these, like, small market jobs where the same producer put up three. Oh. So she showed me that treatment, and it was really, really good. And I was really. And that it. It stung for a minute because, like, she had a better treatment than me. But I was really happy to have actionable, like an actionable critique. Constructive criticism.

55:25

It's awesome.

55:47

Yeah.

55:48

It's hard when it's personal, when it's like, they just. I had that. I had a. I had a vibe check with a company for Joybird. This, like, furniture company, I think, Matt.

55:48

Yeah.

55:56

Couch from them.

55:56

I have that couch.

55:56

And there was something about the call where I just felt like they didn't really like me, you know?

55:57

Yeah.

56:03

And then 15 minutes after the call, the EP is like, yeah, they're not gonna have you pitch on it, you know? And I was like, okay. Yeah. I don't know.

56:03

Yeah. And that.

56:11

It.

56:12

Look, it's hard to. To not take that personally. But I think the flip side, we've. We've all worked with people. Actors are a really easy example where you're like, I'm not sure about them, and then you have them on later and maybe you love them and maybe you were like, oh, I was right. But like, yeah, it's hard because, like, they don't really need to like us, you know, but because we work with them so much.

56:12

You're talking about agencies.

56:32

Yeah, agencies. Yeah. I'm saying there's so many good directors that, like, how do you differentiate between us? Right. Maybe the treatment is different. Maybe they're better at pitching. Maybe you just want to hang out with them.

56:34

Maybe they get a really nice bottle of perfume for you.

56:46

Exactly. Maybe they get a nice bottle of perfume for you.

56:49

Yeah.

56:51

Maybe they're like, hey, I like Carlin. Right.

56:51

Yeah.

56:53

She's great at the little things. Right. That's really what we're talking about, is

56:54

how do we do the little perfume?

56:57

Honestly, that makes me get a job in this market deal. Why is that any different than any other reason? You know what I mean? You're like, well, yeah, she's thoughtful. She sent me some flowers on my birthday and I like her. Great.

56:59

Turn away.

57:11

It's another. Oh, oh. Organized, pays attention, good with details, resourceful. That's all of those things. You know what I mean?

57:12

Yeah.

57:19

She's a hawk. Yeah.

57:20

Okay.

57:21

Not a Karen. A hawk.

57:21

Yeah. Not a Karen in the world. Let's. You. You have just two minutes to do an unpaid endorsement with us.

57:23

Yes.

57:28

Because I have two Carlin Coming with the heat. Unpaid endorsements. This is an old one. Have you seen the Chloe Zhao hamnet dance takes?

57:28

So good.

57:41

How is that old? That movie came out like six months ago.

57:41

It's only a month or two ago that those came out, right?

57:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:47

It's not that they're very joyful and delightful to watch.

57:47

So she talked about it a little bit actually at the. The DGA stuff, but basically that movie is so heavy psychically. Right. And she did so much work, the internal work with Jesse Buckley in particular, but Paul Mescal as well. About like. And the kids, you know, everyone's got this just like this pent up energy and they're talking about their dreams and they're, you know, just living in this grief that at the end of setups she would do a dance take. She would like literally have everyone dance to just physically release all of that tension and energy so that they could be people, basically. And so it became like marketing materials because they would roll cameras on them. But so like there's the shots, like where they're at the Globe and like everyone's like grieving the death of this child and they're watching Hamlet for the first time and it's so incredible. And then you see them all dancing their asses off in this crazy jubilation and it's really powerful and cool. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. It's like, it's really, really cool.

57:52

I find Chloe Zhao, hearing her speak or hearing stories like this to be so depressing.

58:58

Because she's a magic wish witch.

59:04

Because I realized I'll never be a good director. Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. Like, you hear these stories and you're like, what? Where? Like the dreams thing, when we saw her speak.

59:06

Everyone is. But. But there's. I mean, think about like so many great directors are not touchy feely like she is.

59:16

You know, I mean, like, name two.

59:24

David Fincher, Christopher Nolan.

59:26

Yeah, those guys are hex.

59:28

Ice cold. Ice cold.

59:30

And I'm not. I'm not ice cold. And you're not ice cold, Matt. I don't know, Oren. Depends on the day. For you.

59:31

The Oppenheimer was explosive.

59:36

Yeah. There are just many ways to be a great director, but it's. She definitely connects with her cast on such a deep emotional level. It's pretty cool.

59:39

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, we've had guests on here. We're like, God, they. They act like they're. They're so good with actors and we're good with actors and. Yeah. Remember, I'm just insanely jealous of someone. Anyhow. Carlin, what do you got?

59:47

Well, the first thing I've got is a snack recipe. You should have to bear with me

59:59

because I love it with it.

1:00:04

I'm so obsessed with the snack, I cannot get enough. I'm starting to wonder what's wrong with me because it's been three months straight and I have it almost every day. Like, when I'm on location, I miss this snack. So it's just Greek yogurt. Ideally, fage. Full fat with a little fat.

1:00:07

Okay.

1:00:23

Full fat. Okay. I know you're veggie. Cannot talk about your.

1:00:23

No, no, I, I like the full fat.

1:00:27

Okay. And so. So then you put a little honey to sweeten it just a tiny bit. Slice up some grapefruit.

1:00:30

Okay.

1:00:35

Pistachios.

1:00:36

Cholesterol medicine.

1:00:37

Yeah, pistachios. And salt.

1:00:38

Rock salt.

1:00:42

Yeah. Like Maldon. Like flaky salt. And I had a version of this that I at, like, a coffee shop in Buelleton. Shout out sideways wine country here in California. And.

1:00:43

Wait, which coffee shop?

1:00:53

It's a new one. It's like a brand new, like, very hip one. This is what I was eating earlier. I eat it every, every day.

1:00:54

Awesome.

1:01:00

And it's so delicious. And I'm like, I think it's pretty healthy. Like grapefruit, pistachios.

1:01:00

I think it's all great for you.

1:01:05

And a similar thing.

1:01:06

Yeah. You do a similar thing?

1:01:07

I do.

1:01:09

I do almonds, strawberries, blueberries, and there you go. I love granola, but I'm. I, I want to make my own granola. I just think it's going to be so expensive.

1:01:09

No, it's so easy. I make my own granola all the time.

1:01:18

Oh, really?

1:01:20

And there's so much sugar in granola, so if you make yourself, it's.

1:01:20

Yeah, you just put like, a little bit of maple syrup and it.

1:01:24

Send me your favorite recipe.

1:01:27

Yeah, I'll send you my Addison Roman recipe. Okay. And my second one is problematic for friends who travel. And, and, you know, I, I, I don't know. Oren's been to my house. Matt, you just saw my house. I can't believe you haven't been. But anyways, I have, like, a, like a pretty intense PT station. I have, like, a lot of foam rollers. I have a lot of tools.

1:01:28

Physical therapy.

1:01:46

Physical therapy. Thank you. So when I travel, I'm always like, damn, I wish I had my foam roller. And sometimes hotels have them, sometimes they don't. But I have this thing Called a peanut ball, and I'll have to grab it in a second, but it's like two lacrosse balls stuck together, and you put it, like, on your spine and you can massage any part of your body with it, and it rocks. And it's like my travel all star. It's like 11 peanut ball. It's called a peanut ball. It's so good. I will send you the link, but it's like the perfect travel massage tool that I use it every day.

1:01:47

Oh, all right. That's awesome. Love it. Two solid ones.

1:02:19

Yeah.

1:02:22

Well, here we go. Oren takes Oren. He tried to endure two different Trader Joe snacks that he'd already endorsed before

1:02:23

last time, AKA last night. Okay, so this is going to be just as bad because I'm going to endorse something I have not used yet. But I. It's like a half endorsement now, and then I'll. I'll see if I should finish it or negate track record on.

1:02:31

On. On. The pre endorsement hasn't been great, but.

1:02:44

Oh, yeah, the worst pre endorsement was for the. Do you remember when it's for the bug. Oh, my God.

1:02:47

And I have one, and actually I like it, but I'm from Texas and I know how to shoot a gun. I could teach you how to use it.

1:02:53

What's it called? Bug Assault. The bug Assault.

1:02:59

The first time. The first time my wife saw me annihilate on the first try of unfly,

1:03:02

she was like, why are you chewing all that? She wasn't, though.

1:03:08

And I go, you know, I've shot guns.

1:03:11

I told her to get off your lawn.

1:03:13

Yeah. I was like, not a Karen at all. So to be really good at shooting guns. To use that.

1:03:15

Yeah. So we've talked about popcorn way too much on this podcast, but I love. Matt has owned a popcorn popper, is insanely proud of it. I don't know why anyone.

1:03:21

No, no, no. I rescind it, actually. We'll talk about it later.

1:03:29

But I did. I don't want to buy another appliance because, you know, my wife. Don't divorce me if I put one more thing on the counter. But. So I found this thing, which is. It's called the. I think there's a thousand different versions of this. The one I bought, it's called the original proper popper microwave popcorn popper. And it's just a silicon bowl. Do you guys say silicon or silicone?

1:03:33

Silicone.

1:03:52

Are they both.

1:03:53

Except I think those are two different things. One has an E. Silicon Valley at the end. Silicone is like the material.

1:03:53

Yeah.

1:04:00

It's called Silicon Valley because they make wafers, the chip semiconductors on this material. Silicone.

1:04:01

But. But silicone and silic. I think that, like, rubber versus metal, basically. Right.

1:04:07

I think.

1:04:12

Aren't they different? Am I an idiot?

1:04:13

Is this a teal? No. Silicone and silicone are not the same thing. Matt is right. Silicon is a natural, hard, semiconducting element. Damn. Okay.

1:04:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not rubber.

1:04:23

Okay.

1:04:24

Can't believe it. I thought when I. I lived in Silicone Valley and everyone had breast implants, I thought, sure. Literally, I was in one place. So this thing is collapsible, so it's easy to store. Our new friend Chuck Canane sent us, I mean, seven metric tons of popcorn.

1:04:25

Ooh. And I'm trying to use it three

1:04:42

days ago, so just purchased it, but look, it gets really small.

1:04:44

That's great.

1:04:48

I'm sharing my screen and you just put. There's the line you fill with popcorn and you put it in the microwave. And then supposedly this.

1:04:49

I have a dear friend who is an avid popcorn enthusiast who uses something similar and swears by it. I have an air popper. And frankly, thanks to Chuck's really nice popcorn, the kernels are varying sizes. He sent us a variety pack with a ton of different ones, and the smaller light ones fly out before they've popped. And so you just have, like, a mess all over the place. I was, like, just complaining about me. I think I'm going to get rid of it, so I'm going to get one of those for it. Let me know.

1:04:56

Yeah, I think I have it already, so I'll try it out tonight. It's. Yeah, it's kind of weird to make. When you have kids, it's like, weird to make popcorn without the kids. So I kind of have to wait for them. Yeah, yeah.

1:05:23

But also, they're so excited about popcorn. Like, my daughter will be like, should we make some popcorn?

1:05:33

And I'm like, here's.

1:05:39

Yeah, it's great. It's awesome.

1:05:40

Okay, cool. Well, if you guys have any cool recommendations or anything, give them to yourself. Listener questions. Yeah. Email us@just shootapodmail.com you can find us across all social media. Just shoot a pod. I'm on Instagram Kaplan. Oh, Carlin is at CarlinHudson. I forgot about you. Sorry, Matt.

1:05:42

That's okay. And I'm rmadlow. This episode was edited by Kevin Oying. Thanks, Kevin. Lily Bouvier does our social media and. And Tyler is our producer. Thanks to you both. You listen to music provided by the Free Music Archive and the artist Jazar. Goodbye.

1:06:00

Goodbye.

1:06:13

Here's how to stay alive longer so you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata. Stay alive and switch now at boost mobile. After 30 gigs, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile and Knock knock. Ooh, who's there?

1:06:22

A Boost Mobile expert here to deliver and set up your all new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.

1:06:39

You called that a knock knock joke?

1:06:45

This isn't a joke. Boost Mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.

1:06:47

Okay. It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.

1:06:51

Like I said, this isn't a joke.

1:06:55

So the knock knock was just you knocking?

1:06:56

Yeah, that's how doors work.

1:06:59

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased at boostmobile.com, terms apply.

1:07:00

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

1:07:07