SC EP:1261 Jumping from tree to tree

It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind. And it either heard me or smelt me. And he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up and that that shocked me. They don't make people that that big. The way it moved. Almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move like that in my life. They were screaming at each other in gibberish. It sounded like a language and they were chunting away back and forth, back and forwards, back and forwards. I know what a bear looks like and there is no way on this planet that what I saw was a bear's. 911, what are you reporting? Jesus Christ, you better. Sheriff? See ya. Hello? Get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about 6'9". I don't know. Do you see him now, sir? Yes, I'm looking right at him. This is Karla from the Great Smoky Mountains and you're listening to the best part of my week, Sasquatch Chronicles. Welcome to the show. Tonight we'll be chatting with Jeremy and Jeremy comes to us from Kentucky and we'll be discussing two encounters tonight. One was around 1990. At the time he read the book, he said, I don't want Jeremy going to it. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com and if you get a chance, check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com. You can become a member and get additional shows. Let's jump into it tonight. I want to welcome Jeremy to the show. Jeremy, thanks for coming on. Hey, Wes. How's it going? I'm doing well. Thank you for asking. And we're going to discuss two encounters that you had. If you would, would you start from the very beginning? What were you doing and what happened? And this was around, this was like the early 90s, correct? That was probably 1990 when that happened. It was I was around 11, 12 years old and I'd been hunting and fishing with my dad all my life since I can remember. I went into the woods with him and, you know, I would, I would go to the woods with him and I would go to the woods with him. He would, he would fix me a tree stand a hundred yards from his and I would climb up and just sit there while he hunted and, you know, he was, I was just far enough. He could still see me, I guess. And I knew I was safe. So I'd go in and hunt with him and he's good dad. He's a good guy, but he, he taught me how to do all that stuff. And I like to fish at the creek a lot by myself back then. And I would catfish at night time. I would just go down there and I'd take a lantern and I would sit on the creek bank and just, you know, fish for catfish and just as what I did, my grandpa liked to eat them. So I would keep the guv hole here and there and, you know, and take them to him to eat. But yeah, I was, I was sitting on the creek bank. I had my lantern kind of low and I always put a piece of tin foil on the backside of it. So it doesn't blind me and I can keep my night vision pretty good. And here in Kentucky, it's, you know, it's pretty hilly where I'm at. I wouldn't say mountainous and I'm in southeastern Kentucky. So it's not, I'm not to the main mountains yet, but it's still pretty mountainous. And the creeks are pretty low in the hollows and, you know, the creek, the creek banks are actually, you know, if you're actually sitting on the edge of the creek, you're, you're down lower than the banks. The banks are probably eight or nine feet tall, you know, or the erosion has happened around them. So above, above me, there's a hillside that run on the opposite side of the creek. It runs up to the road. It's like a two lane small country road. And looking back on it now, there was a cave up there. Used to go exploring in when I was real little. I would do, we would cross over me and my brother and we would go over there and we would go caving. And we thought we were Indiana Jones and, you know, we were going to find the Ark of the Covenant or something. We'd go, we'd go in this cave and it was a big cave. It has a big chambers in it. But looking back, I'm, I'm thinking that this is, that's probably where this thing I heard came from because it was in a direct line over there. And I've been all over that country down in there because I lived there and that was like my playground when I was younger. You know, we didn't have cell phones and all this stuff. So we, I had to do stuff done there to pass the time. So, but yeah, sitting there one night, it was probably two or three o'clock in the morning and I heard something running down the hillside on the opposite side of the creek. And it was, I could almost hear it before it got to the road. I started listening pretty intently and I heard what sounded like it sounded like bare feet slapping on concrete. Like, you know, we used to, me and my brother used to run and race on the black top outside of our house because we had a little back road that was not many days a day in the road, but it was still like Chippin' Seal or, you know, for a while then he got to be black top and we would run up and down it and race and stuff barefooted. And I knew that sound, you know, so, and it was late at night. So I'm guessing whatever it was, its feet had gotten wet with a dew on the ground and I heard it cross the road. Maybe two slaps with its feet or three and there was a guardrail there and then it, it jets, it goes straight down because they cut that road into the side of the bank. They had to under, it was undercut so they had to put the riprap rock around underneath it. You know, the, they're about the size of a big softball, like a little bigger softball. And I heard it, I heard it jump the guardrail because I heard the guardrail slap. Like he grabbed it or whatever it was grabbed the guardrail and kind of heard it make a sound. And then I heard the rocks when it landed it, it, whatever it was kind of slid down the rocks like somebody, you know, you get on gravel or loose ground and you kind of slide in it. And that's what it sounded like. And I was like, oh man, I was like, what? I thought it was a deer at the time. You know, I was looking back and I don't think it was a deer at all. So I'm sitting there and it gets down and I don't think it ever saw my lantern because I was below ground level at that point. It was kind of coming down at me, but I don't think it had made up my lantern because it turned down pretty low. And it got down and there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of river cane down there and it's really thick. And I could hear it moving through. Now I think I think it saw my light and it started doing these, they started howling and making these. It was, it was like a whoop. And then it was like more of a long like whooping yell is like, I can't, it was long. It was a, it was all together. It whooped and then it done a long like vocalization. I don't know how to explain it. It was all together and it was, it didn't sound like it was trying to intimidate me or anything. It was just a whoop. And then it went into like a big long whooping cry sound and thing. It was, it was odd. It was a odd, odd thing to hear at night time, especially at three o'clock in the morning. At the time, you know, I'm so young, I thought it was probably an owl or a barn owl or something because they can make some crazy noises sometimes. And I just, I just, you know, you know, you're more of a mortal when you're that age. You don't really look at things like how dangerous it could have been. But I saw some eye shine and it was kind of a, it was faint, but it was looked like a reddish, orangey color and they were set far apart. So I thought, well, that's maybe an owl or something over there in a tree. Looking back, it was probably 10 feet off the ground. So that's why I thought it was an owl because I thought it was up in a tree and it's eyes were set, but it's eyes were set so far apart. I was like, that's a big owl. But I mean, we have great horned owls here and, you know, the barn owls get pretty big and I've had barn owls scare me to death, you know, because they look like a person's face. Sometimes right at daylight and dusk when they, you know, if you're up in a tree and they flying on you, they just right out of high, you know, it's kind of scary. But so I just kind of thought it was something like that going on, you know, but I didn't, I didn't think too much of it then, but there were some rocks hit the water up from me to my right up the creek. And, you know, at the time I just played it off like it was a fish jumping or something, you know, or little frogs or anything jumping in the water because you'd hear frogs jump in occasionally and stuff like that. But looking back at, I'm pretty sure it was rocks being thrown because it had that, you know, the sound of a rock hitting the water. It had that deep, deeper sound. So they were pretty good sized, probably baseball sized rocks. And the rocks hitting the water looking back, that was, that's what threw me for a loop because I always wondered about that. And they just kind of stopped and I could hear it move away. I was puzzled for the longest time. I asked my dad and I got the next day whenever he woke up because I was up all night with it on my mind and I fished till probably five o'clock in the morning and then I came home. And, you know, I skin the catfish that I'd kept from my grandpa and got him ready to give to him. And, you know, the sun started coming up and my dad woke up and I was explaining it to him. He's like, he's like, I don't know. He's probably a barn owl. He said they can make some crazy sounds. He said, I've heard them really get crazy and make some weird noises in the woods. And I'm like, OK, so that's probably it. I just explained it the way as a barn owl. But looking back on it, I think it was more than that. That was my first encounter with something I didn't know what it was in the woods. And at that point, like I killed my first deer with a bow when I was 10 years old. So, I mean, I was I've hunted and fished my whole life. So I've seen a lot and looking back at the things that there was two or three instances in my life that I couldn't tell you what it was. So the second one happened around 1994. And me and my dad, we were deer hunting down in Beaver Creek, which is the W it's a wildlife management area. WMA done in Macquarie County, which is about, I don't know, 25 or 30 miles from here south, Fort Tennessee. So you're getting in a more mountainous, you know, country done that way. And you're not very far from the big south fork. It's the beginning of the big south fork. That area there were some, you know, that's some big woods down there that run into the Smoky Mountains. And, you know, part of the Appalachian Mountains, I'm sure. And so I was with we used to go down there and hunt a lot. And one evening we were going to go and do an evening hunt. So we went down towards Cumberland Falls. And there was a road there that was the helipad road. I'm sure if anybody's listening from that area, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So there's a field about a three mile field that you can walk to. And then there's like a five mile field on out farther. And so my dad said he would go to the far one and I would go to the closer one. I was like, okay. So you turn left off to the main road and go to the smaller field and he kept going out towards the field towards the end of the road. So I walked in that day that afternoon and it felt like we walked forever. But we finally, I finally got up and got on stand. And I was, it was in November because most of the leaves were off and it was it was warm that day though. It was probably, you know, it's probably 65 or so 60. So I was sweating pretty bad by the time I used my climber and got up and stand and, you know, everything calm back down. So I'm sitting there and I hadn't seen any deer or anything. I didn't think I would till right around dark. But this was about an hour before dark. I went and had the sun was still up and it was going down to the west and I was facing directly west. And I could see the field opening and I could see a patch of woods coming around the end of the point. The country down there is like, it's like box canyons kind of. And, you know, you get into those canyons and you can't get out because of the click you get cliff lined and you can't come up out of them. So we kind of stay out of the bottoms of those in that area just because they're so hard to find an opening to get back up on top. So if you get turned around, you're basically going to walk 20 miles to get out to main road if you go up or down. So it's just, you know, we want to take that chance on the dark. And I'm sitting there and I'm watching, I'm watching the field edge and the woods that I can see. I can probably see 150 yards down through the woods. I was pretty high up in the three and had a good vantage point and the squirrels beside me, they start barking and they're looking down the point and I'm back and hear the squirrels down there going crazy. And then everything just goes dead solid. I'm like, okay, there we go. Something's coming. I stand up and get my bow. I'm standing there and I see something black coming at me. And at first I thought it was a bear because there are more bears in that country than there are here. But first I just saw a black bob kind of, you know, I could see the sun hitting it. I thought, man, that thing sure has weird coloration because I could see that it was black, but then I could see it was on two feet. And I was like, oh, what is this coming here? And it was around five or six feet tall. It wasn't a huge animal, but it was on two feet. And it was moving so graciously. It was, it was, I've never seen anything like the way it, well, I have. I've seen bobcats move like it moved. It would step like at the bottom of the trees the way they splay out. It would put one foot on where it wouldn't hit the leaves. It would put one foot on the sides of the tree and hold it with one hand and it would jump to the other tree and hang on to it. And it would like land on that other tree. And it, you know, it was probably jumping eight, nine, 10 feet each time. And I'm off one leg and I'm like, holy cow. And the best way to explain it is like a bobcat moves through the woods. I've seen lots of bobcat and I've killed a couple and, you know, I've, I mean, I've been around them. So I see how they move and that that's the way this thing moved. It was, you know, it was trying not to make any noise at all. And it was doing a good job. But I could see it and it was, it was black. But where the sun was set behind it, I could see it so vividly that it, like, had a pair of binoculars and I was kind of watching it through those. They weren't very strong, but they were strong enough to, you know, bring it in closer. And I could see it. I could see the red at the tips of its fur. It was, it was, it was a lot sitting behind it. It was just black with these red tips and the hair didn't look like it was two and a half, three inches long. Maybe it didn't look very long as it looked really well manicured. I was like, I don't know what this thing is. And I could see, I could see the way it was moving and I know it was on two feet. I know it was, it was walking across log just like a human. It was, it was thick. It was muscular. It was, it didn't have much of a neck, but it had a rounder head than you see in the depictions on, you know, people, you know, with the big dome head on Sasquatch. So it looked like a, look like a wrestler or something. There's a short shorter version of a rat. You know, there was the big traps and the, the head sitting around the neck and it was so athletic that I thought, man, this, to be that big, it's so, it can move so gracefully. And it, it was coming straight at me whenever I saw it. And I, and when I saw it and started, I was like, is that a person? I was like, no, it's all one color. It's all black. Its face was even black. And it had big eyes. Really, its eyes were really big. I could see its forehead. It had the wrinkles like, you know, in it when it would look certain way, it would have the wrinkles across its forehead and it was just a black face. It was big black eyes. And it was just, it was wild looking. And I, you know, it wasn't, it didn't get within 20 or 30 yards. So I didn't get a great look at, you know, at its face. But I do, I could see it through my binoculars enough to see that it had, you know, it had a nose and eyes and lips and, you know, it's, look, it turned sideways once and I could see that its, its forehead was a little bit, you know, rather than the nose. Its eyebrows were protruded out a little bit. Its eyes were sinking. But they were big. His eyes were big. And it was, it reminded me more of a man, really. It just had long arms and it was swinging its arms and like an odd cadence to the way it walked. You know, I don't know how to explain it, but it was, when I saw the Patty film and went back and watched it, it was walking. Exactly like that. Like its arms would swing with the same leg as it moved with. It was, it wasn't opposite like we do. It was more, I don't know. It's like the arms swung with the same leg. It just looked odd the way it was walking. And I just, I was like, huh, that's strange looking the way it's walking kind of like slump, slump down a little bit with its knees bent. But its head didn't bob like a humans, you know, animals, they glide. They don't, they don't, you can tell a human from a long way off the way they walk. We kind of bounce on a walk. And I've always heard like the patties and stuff. They call it the Fox walk. And you, you walk just like a Sasquatch would walk bent kneeed your head. You try to make sure your head stays parallel with the ground. It doesn't bounce. So it doesn't draw attention. You know, that, that extra movement of going up and down, you know, shows animals, you know, your location a lot easier. And I don't know, it just slows you down enough to be a little bit better. You know, your, it keeps your eyes more stable when you're moving through the woods. And I don't know, it just, it's a little more efficient way to go through the woods if you're hunting, you know, it doesn't bring, it doesn't bring a lot of attention to you. If you can do that type of walk, but whenever it got to about 75 yards of me and it kind of threw its head up and looked in my direction and stop. So I don't know if it saw me or smelled me. But at that point, I know, I know the gig was up. I know he was going, he was going to try to move away, but he didn't move away like a deer or something. He didn't take off and he, he just kind of like he was, he was holding onto a tree leaning out, getting ready to make another jump. And he just kind of threw his head up and like in my direction. And then he moved behind the tree. And I could see him kind of looking around it. I say him, I don't know if it was a male or female. I don't know. I'm not sure. But I, you know, at that age, I couldn't see any type of, you know, anything on it, but it was just black fur. But it was still looking around the tree and I was, I got my binoculars and I was looking, I was still looking at it through the binoculars. And I took them down and when I did, I could still see it deep in around the tree. But then it goes, it starts to move away. Back, it uses that tree between me and it, which I thought was crazy. I could see its legs moving like it had dropped down, maybe on all fours or was maybe crawling. I don't know. I could see its legs moving, but it was using that tree between me and it to keep me from seeing it. And it just disappeared. And I was like, huh, that was a weird, it was a weird encounter. But I do know that it was bipedal and I do know that it was jumping back and forth. And it was very athletic to be what it was. I mean, to, you know, you, you hear about these encounters and, you know, they say that they are so stealth, you know, stealthfully and they move so stealthfully and they're so quick. And I have no doubt that's what I saw. It's, it's arms were long because when it was holding the tree, it would lean way out from the tree and then it would pull itself back a little bit. And then it would spring off on one leg and spring across to the next tree. And I was like, wow, this thing's got some hops. And I was like, wow, there's nothing to do. And no, then it would, it would come across the top of a log, you know, there would be a tree down and it would, it would get on top of it and just walk across it like a human would just like it's walking the tightrope and just right across it. And then it would, it would move again. And it was moving pretty steadily when I first saw it. I mean, it was walking and it was actually in the edge of the fields when it came up. It came off the end of the point. I know it did. It came up off the end of the point and it come up the edge of the field, but then it had to come into the woods to keep coming up to where I was at. So that's when it entered the woods, when you enter the woods and it was, it was really dry that year. And there was, you know, you could hear, you could hear, you know, a deer coming from 200 yards away. If they were walking pretty steady, you know, you could tell that's what they were. It was really dry. So I'm guessing it was, it just didn't want to make any noise so it could hear better and, you know, walk on the stuff better. I knew enough at that point about Bigfoot that I thought that's a small one and I need to go now because if it goes back and tells his mom and dad and they come up here, I'm going to be in trouble. Because at that time I didn't carry any type of firearm with me when I bow hunted. I just, you know, I just went in with my bow and hunted. Not that the gun, not that the pistol is going to do a whole lot. A nine millimeter or something is not going to do a whole lot against Bigfoot. Probably he's probably going to beat you to death with the pistol, but I would have felt better. But I sure didn't want to be walking out of there in the dark, you know. So I got down right then, as soon as it got out of sight, I got down and I walked back to meet my dad and I had to sit there in the dark for probably an hour before he got back to me. So, you know, I was jumping at every sound and I thought, man, they've tracked me out and they're going to get me before he gets back. And I was just, I was really worried and it took me a long time to tell him when he got back out to me, he didn't say much. He hadn't seen, he hadn't seen any deer that evening. And so we just walked out to the truck and I said, dad, I said, I saw something I can't explain. And I told him about it. And he was like, he was like, he was done here. He said, there, he said, you'll have that sometime. And I'm like, thanks to that. So I don't know if he had seen anything he won't, he won't, he won't ever talk about it if he has, but he's just, he's that type of person. And I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. And I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I don't know if he's ever seen anything he's done. I think if I lived in maybe Washington or Oregon or more than California, and yeah, there might be a chance of it, but I was just, I felt very blessed to see the what I saw after, after I saw it, you know, looking, I'd love to see another one. In that type of stage where it was a good way off and wasn't right off on me, but. Yeah, I can understand the way you feel, especially with your, your encounter. I mean, it's not like it was aggressive with you at all. Let me ask you though, you see this thing and it's advancing towards you and it lifts its head up and kind of looks in your direction, but it keeps coming. What do you make of that behavior? I think it was a little bit curious. I think it was just wondering what, because, you know, if it hadn't ever seen man or saw very few, it probably wanted to see what that smell was. Maybe we always use Fox here and on our boots back then as a cover scent. And so it may have thought there was a fox in the area or something. They may have smelled that, but we would always put a little bit on our boots and we wore rubber boots when we walked in and out to leave no scent. And we're very kind. I mean, I've always been very conscious about the wind and hunted was the wind in my face, you know, tried to stay upwind from everything that I'm hunting. You know, of an evening here, there wasn't much wind that evening. I mean, maybe one mile an hour at the most, you know, it was just very in and I think the thermals pulled my scent down into that low spot. And he just kind of smelled me before he started, you know, he didn't. He didn't. Once he smelled me, he didn't really advance too far. He was 10 or 15 more yards and he, then he, I think he saw my stand up in the tree. And that's whenever he just, he went behind the tree and kind of hunkered down and kind of moved, crawled back his way off of the side of the ridge as to where I couldn't see him. Because there's a lot of Laurel, Laurel bushes and stuff right on the edge of those cliff lines. Must be all that grows right in that area. But when it got into Laurels, I couldn't see it. I couldn't, I couldn't really see it anymore. And he could have dropped, I mean, he could have climbed down the cliff face or, you know, for all I know, you know, that's very possible. They're, I'm sure there are a lot better climbers than I am. I guess sweaty hands watching people on TV do those mountain climbs and freaks me out. Yeah, you and me both. Hey, it freaks me out watching that stuff. I'm not a huge fan of heights. I mean, I'm okay up until about 20 or 30 feet. Then beyond that, I'm not a huge fan of it. The part of your encounter, and I've heard this behavior very few times. But the part about it jumping from tree to tree, its movement and how it moved, I find that it makes me wonder why it would jump from tree to tree. Yeah. Yeah, it would, it would bounce, it would jump from tree, like tree base to tree base. And like I said, the trees around here are mostly deciduous. They're not ever greens a lot. There's some hemlock and stuff down there, but they're more on the river. On that area, I was up on top of the ridge. So it's oak and stuff like that. Oak and maples and so at the bottom, they have a, they split, they, at the bottom of a tree, they usually, it usually grows out. You know, it fans out at the bottom a little bit and leaves, don't usually sit right at the bottom of the tree, like around the base. So it was, it would plant its foot right there and it would jump to the base of the next tree and kind of halt it self in place. It could get to a log to run across the log or walk across the log and then it would walk across the log and then it would do that all over again. So as it picked its way up through the woods, it was trying to find the, it was finding the path of the least sound, I think, you know, he was trying to stay as quiet as he could. Yeah, you would think it would almost make more noise doing that. I guess if it's November and all the leaves are down, maybe not so much, but did you and your dad ever go back? I never went back to that spot in my life. I've never been back doing that. What about going back and just going in there and camping just to see if I could get any responses or anything? But it freaks me out. That that place freaks me out because I don't know. I just, you know, that that's a, that place is an odd, it's got an odd energy to it anyway. It's to me, I feel, I feel odd when I go in those woods for some reason. I've had some encounters with people down there too that have worried me like I would come back to the truck and there'd be a car sitting there idling at my truck. And I would just turn my lot of, because I would walk out of the woods a lot of times without without a lot. And I would just hunker down in the woods till they left because I didn't know what they wanted, you know. And like I said, I didn't carry a pistol or anything. So I was worried because those roads down there, they go in the no man's land and I just didn't like the way it looked. So I just hunkered down and waited till they left and. Yeah, nothing good comes from strangers idling at your truck when you're in the middle of nowhere. Nothing good comes from that situation. When you talk about the vibe, you know, in that area that you didn't like, what was it like a feeling of being watched? Yeah. Yeah, it's like that. It's like that there a lot like it's. It's it's either dead or it's alive. It's with an odd feeling like it's either got a lot of wildlife movement or it's nothing at all. It's like you're being watched and it's like there's nothing moving at all. It's it's a lot of feeling. I've never been in woods that made me feel that way other than maybe LBL. It's got kind of the same vibe to it. You know, Jeremy, through all your times of hunting and fishing, especially cat fishing, because you know, you mainly do that at night. For all your time in the woods, have you ever seen the lights we talk about? I mean, I've seen some orbs and stuff, but I never paid attention to that stuff really that much. You know, I've seen. I've seen shooting stars and stuff like that, that I know what they were. And I've seen lots that I couldn't explain. But I was fishing at night and they were just they were just some they're just they look like white lights like just off in the distance and they were moving. Just like in an erratic pattern. I used to not fish on the lake a lot for bass, too. And I was out by myself one evening and it was just a lot that was kind of ping ponging around. And I thought maybe somebody just had some sort of flashlight and that were, you know, maybe running with it or something. Because the way it was moving was real erratic. But then it split in two. And I was like, maybe there's two people. It was between me and the me and there was a big point that ran down to the water and it had it had lowered down to the water level and was, you know, it lowered pretty slow. And then it started moving pretty erratically like, you know, it kind of floated along the water. And then and then it's like I said, it split and then it started moving really fast and then it just zipped away. And I was like, oh, that was odd. Maybe there's somebody that was a spotlight, you know, the first looking for a spot over there or something. You know, I just I kind of try to rationalize that stuff because I don't I don't know about that stuff. But it's hard for me to I don't know. I don't want to introduce another mystery with until I saw this one. Yeah, I hear bigfoot researchers say that a lot. You know, they'll say, well, we don't want to add one mystery to another mystery. And but if you saw it, you're not really adding one mystery to another mystery. It's something weird that you saw out of all the the times of fishing and hunting. And how many times would you say you saw the lights? Probably twice in my life. I've seen them dance along the water and, you know, and just kind of moving erratic patterns that no way that aircraft could do that. And hit that and zoom and just take off like that and move and just move away so fast that you can't hardly follow it with your eyes. It's just, you know, zero to mock tan and no, no, just drop of a hat. It's just crazy and they're on. It's like they've seen what they want to see and they're gone. So they look about the size of the tennis ball, maybe or maybe a little bigger at that range. It was a pretty good ways off. I mean, it was not a full moon. I don't think because I like to fish on the full moon, you know, before and after. So that night, I don't think it was a full moon so I could see them. I could see it a little bit better the way it was moving because it says dark hillside behind it. And then I had, you know, the lights were moving. And so, you know, I've seen the lights on two occasions. The first time was not like a flashlight like someone walking with a flashlight. The second time at the Browns though, I thought it was someone walking with, I thought we pissed off one of their neighbors and they were coming out, you know, to kind of give us what for. And it was this light. It was kind of, I know you and I are about the same age like in the 80s when they had those crappy flashlights. I know what you saw was kind of a white light. What I saw that night was kind of that dull yellow, like an 80s flashlight. And it was bobbing up and down. And then that's I honestly thought it was someone with a flashlight ended up not being a person ended up being a weird light. But when you describe the erratic behavior of how it moved, is that kind of what you're describing like someone? I mean, you thought it was people, someone walking with a flashlight. Was that kind of the behavior of the light? Yeah, that's exactly what it looked like. I thought, well, there goes somebody walking out, you know, walking out that hillside on a road or something like, you know, I wasn't close enough to see, but I thought somebody was just moving out through there. And I was seeing the light off the flashlight. But then it when it dropped straight down, I was like, well, either fell down the hill or that's not a person. So then when it dropped, it when it got to the water level, it sit there and hovered for a minute and it split into two and one went one way and one went the other. And I was just like, huh, that's a lot of looking. You know, kind of looking back now, what was it that you saw that night? What do you think it was? I have no idea. I really don't. I don't know if it was a reflection, maybe off of car lights. I don't I couldn't tell you. I haven't I have I have no idea. I could have been some sort of UFO. It could have been. It could have been a reflection from a boat with its lights on that I couldn't see around a point or something. I'm not sure, but it sure was bright. If it was a light off a reflecting because you normally, you know, they'll disperse a lot and you'll get more of a floodlight look. This was more of a ball. So. Yeah, so strange. I wish I had a great answer for what the lights are. I can tell you from the Browns property. Like I said, I thought it was someone coming with a flashlight. There was a guy there. We were all in a barn and a guy was using a thermal and I kind of glanced up and I saw it and I was like, OK, someone's coming, you know. And I remember him looking through the thermal and he goes, there's nothing there. But he couldn't even see the light through the thermal. But he takes his eyes off of the thermal and there's a light. But he goes, there's no one there. And I go, what do you mean there's no one there? And the light did dive. I thought it dove down into bushes or into the ground. I mean, it dove down is what I'm trying to say. I don't know where it went. I thought it was someone screwing with us. I'm like, OK, someone wants to play games and, you know, whoever it was, they dove down into these bushes. And I remember we all snapped our lights on and there was nowhere for it to dive down into. It was like 12 feet up of sticker bushes. And the weird part is I felt like it almost kind of reacted to all of us watching it. I know you have a degree in biology and fishing and wildlife management. With your education, what do you think Sasquatch is? I think I really think with all the secrecy with the government with it and all the people seeing it. I really think it's a hominoid. I think it's I think it's a primate of some sort. I do. I think it's a two-legged bipedal, some sort of relic. I think that these tribes, these American tribes, you know, all the American tribes have a name for Sasquatch, a different name. And if you look at the depictions of, you know, we learned about in college, we learned about Bergman's rule. And what it is, is I'm sure you've heard that before, is where, you know, animals to the south are usually smaller in size. They have long legs. I don't know if the legs look longer because they're not dense for heat dispersion. And animals in the north are much heavier with the little probably just probably the same bone structure, but they're just heavier where they can retain more heat during the wintertime. So, you know, like a deer in Texas will be, you'll have 150 inch deer that will look enormous in that same 150, you know, in my way, 150 pounds. But in Saskatchewan, it's going to weigh 300 pounds, the same deer, the same size deer. The rack won't look as big because the deer's so big. But you look at the depictions of all the bigfoot that they saw over the years and, you know, you get in the skunk ape and stuff down in the south. And you see, I saw the video, the one where the ones in the cypress tree digging around. And that thing is not as heavy as the ones you see up north, like the depictions of them. They're not as robust. They're not as thick. So it makes me kind of think about that. It's adhering to the rule of science if you look at it that way, you know. So I don't know. I don't, I really think that there are Sasquatch in the woods. I think that people are going about looking for them the wrong way. I don't think they're using a hunter's mentality. I don't think it's when you go out into the woods, I don't, I don't think they, I don't think people use enough scent control. They don't play the wind like they should. I don't think they don't wear rubber boots. They, you know, I think they go into these areas with a group, group of people and they wander around and they're leaving so much scent in that particular drainage or wherever they're at that those animals just move until they're gone. Until they're gone and then they come back. And I really think they can see our lot. I think that's how they evade all these, all these truckhams. I mean, if you watch, you watch this stuff, they never get anything more than maybe a little further on a camera. I think that, you know, truck cameras, the hour flash goes off before it starts recording or takes a picture. So I'm sure they see that and take off or hit the camera or dive away from it. Because I mean, there's been many times that I've taken pictures of nothing. There'd be nothing standing there. So I think that's why we'll never get a picture of, I think they smell them too. I think they smell whatever chemical they make the cameras with or the chemical in the batteries. The lithium, maybe. I don't know. I'm no expert on the scent, but I do know that they train dogs to smell, you know, for cell phones and stuff like that with dogs. And they I've heard that they look for the chemical that's in the lot. And it's in the camera on them, which makes me wonder if they're doing the same thing. If they're smelling that before they get to it and they spot them out before they ever get in that area and just go around them. Yeah, I don't think it's too far outside of the box to realize that these creatures know those trail cameras are there. I mean, in most trail cam pictures, whether it's a deer or a bear or whatever animal in most of those pictures, the animals looking right at the trail cam. I mean, even a dumb deer knows that that camera is there. They do. You're right. I've had I quit using trail cameras because of that reason. I live in Ohio because I was hunting small, small little plots of land around huge agricultural areas, soybeans and corn. So I'm hunting small, like 10 to 15 acre woodlots. And I would put a camera in there and I would get I get one picture of a big deer and it would always be staring right at the camera and I'd never get another picture of it. So I just took that on my cameras and I go I don't go in the woods until you know when I lived up there. I didn't go in those woods till October, the end of October, the first cold spell. And that was my greatest chances of killing a big deer was the first time I said on stand. Because, you know, you contaminate your area with sand. Every time you walk through the woods and something brushes against you, that's leaving sand. And even deer, when they're moving around at night in the woods, they'll track you to your stand and they know where your stands are. I mean, I've had deer walk through the woods and look up in the trees. I've seen them do it. So the thing is something that's exponentially smarter than a deer. I mean, you're not going to get close if you've contaminated the area and you've. Is there any research going on that where they they try to maybe somebody goes and stays elevated and like it's really high up in the tree for a week or something. It's just stays there and stays put. I mean, I don't I haven't seen anything like that. I mean, I see I see these like expedition bigfoot. I just got them watching that for the safe for instance. And that Russell guy on there's a beast, by the way, he's a good tracker and a good hunter. But I feel like they contaminated an area. And then they move everything out. They may see something and they may not. You know, if they do, I think it's just luck. I mean, they haven't covered a lot of a lot of structures. I do think that, you know, they've proven the nest real and, you know, the teepee structures that they leave for. I think that's a directional thing. Yeah, but you got to understand shows like expedition bigfoot or finding bigfoot. They're for entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less. They might capture some cool things, but like you said, they're going to move to the next location or whatever. And I agree with you. Russell is a beast. I got to tell you a funny story about Russell. We were at a conference. And we're friends, by the way, when you hear this story, we're actually pretty good friends. We're at a conference one time and you know that backpack he wears on the on the TV show. That thing's no joke. The thing's heavy when you put it on. I think it's like a hundred pounds. I can't remember, but it weighs a lot. We're at a conference one time and he has people come up and they put the backpack on and they go walking around the auditorium wearing it. See how long they can carry this backpack. Well, Russell is up there giving his speech. Him and the guy kind of get into this kind of a friendly. I don't want to say argument like debate. The guy saying I can make it back to the back of the auditorium back to your table before you will. And I'm wearing your backpack. Well, that was the wrong thing to say to Russell because it's on now. And I'm sitting in the back of the auditorium. They both take off running down. He rustles like on the very far right side and this other guy's on the very, very far left side. So I decide I'm going to get up and I'm going to block Russell so this guy wins. Now, I really wasn't going to stop Russell. You know, it was friendly. It was I really wasn't trying to stop him. It was more like a joke. Well, here comes Russell coming right at me. And there's a lot of room to go around me. I mean, we're in the back of the auditorium and I'm like, why is Russell speeding up? Why is Russell lowering his shoulder? And why hasn't he tried to like go around me? And he hit me. And it was like two brick walls slamming into each other. I mean, he got the better of me by far. Again, I really wasn't trying to stop him. I was like, what the hell, man? But he hit me and that guy is a beast. I will give him that. You don't want him running full speed at you and running right into you. I guess I have to round and kind of found out and I felt it for the rest of the day for sure. But yeah, those shows really are for entertainment. I wanted to ask you kind of going back to your very first encounter. Does your family still own that property? Yeah, they still own it. We still go down there and I let my kids fish down there and there's more deer in there now because it's grown up and they've started having crops nearby. So there's more deer that come in there and stuff. So they might not once I'm actually bow hunts down there, but he's never seen anything like what I saw that night and heard. He's never had any experience like that that I know of. But yeah, that was I feel like I was just lucky to have that experience too because I was just in the right place at the right time. I don't think that animal I don't see how it could survive right in there. I mean, I guess it could with the creek and the fish and shellfish and the crawdads and stuff. But I feel like they would have to kill something large to sustain them if they were as big as a deer or so to get by. Yeah, it makes you wonder if when you were younger, when you saw it, if it was just kind of passing through. You know, earlier, you were talking about Bigfoot researchers and I agree with you. I don't know who gave them the title of Bigfoot researchers, but at the end of the day, if everyone's being honest in the room, they're amateur campers hoping something will happen. You know, with your background and your education, I'm assuming you have the scientific view that a body has to be collected, a specimen has to be collected for this to ever be proven. How would you go about that? I would sit on a ridge with a 50 cal per week and shoot one head and then I would call in somebody with a chopper because I wouldn't go get it by myself. That's the only way anybody's going to believe it. I know that sounds morbid, but I think that's at the end of the day that's what it's going to take because nobody's going to believe a picture. Nobody's going to believe the sightings. Nobody's going to believe the footprints because we have all those. I mean, we're still, you know, people are still getting, they still don't take it serious. And it's just, it's really upsetting that these people get pictures of monkeys and, you know, they, they're good with that. You know, random species of monkeys, we found them. There they are. Or, you know, or maybe some sort of weasel or something. There's a picture there. You know, there it is, but they get pictures of Sasquatch and it's like, no, that can't be real. Not all the, not all the pictures can be fake. Not all the sightings can be fake. There's just too many. And I know mine's not fake. I'm not, I wouldn't call them take your time up in your listeners time just to tell a lie. I mean, that's not, that's not who I am. And I don't know. I just don't, I don't see any appeal on that. Yeah, it is frustrating. I think most of the evidence we have now is the same evidence we keep getting over and over and over again. And, you know, you're right. No one's going to believe a video, especially with AI. No one's really going to believe the audio and encounters aren't going to change people's opinion. It might a little bit, but it's never going to prove it. And you know, that very first encounter that you had where you really didn't know what it was. And then the second time when you saw it, I'm still thinking about that thing jumping from tree to tree. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share it. Well, thank you for having me with us. I appreciate it. And I appreciate what you do. Thank you. Thanks, Jeremy. And that's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is west at Sasquatch Chronicles dot com. And if you get a chance, check out Sasquatch Chronicles dot com. You can become a member and get additional shows. Until next time, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.