Why you should try improv comedy (w/ Rick Andrews)

This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and one of my favorite things in the entire world is improv comedy. I know that is very much not cool and hip to say that one of my favorite things in the entire universe is adults playing make-believe together, but it is true. I absolutely love it. And I think that one of the things that I love the most about it, whether it's watching it or performing it myself, is that good improv skills, in my opinion, are the same as good people skills. How do you listen really closely? How do you make other people look good? How do you deal with unexpected situations? How do you remember something that is fun and playful and bring it back later on? They're all skills that are kind of basic to improv, but they're also skills that make people the kinds of people that I want to spend time with, the kinds of people that I want to be around. And today's guest, Rick Andrews, is an incredible improviser. He is very much someone who I want to spend time with. But more than just being a great performer, Rick is an amazing teacher. He has been teaching for years. He's taught so, so, so many people. And what he's learned is that we can all get better at playing, at improvising, and making our lives funnier, more exciting, and more of an all-around good time. We're going to talk so much more about how to do that, but first we're going to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Did I talk too much? I should have handled that better. Why can't I just let it go? Why did I do that? I wish I could stop thinking so much. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counselling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals, get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs, and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit BetterHelp.com forward slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. That's Rav. He's just switched to good energy. We match the power our customers use with renewable electricity sourced from our community of over 3,000 independent energy producers using sun, wind, and hydro right across the UK. Now Rav can be sure he's powering his home with greener electricity. That tea will taste even better. Getting your energy from a great British B Corp. That's good energy. Join us at goodenergy.co.uk. And we are back. Today we are talking about improv with Rick Andrews. Hi, my name is Rick Andrews. I teach and perform improvisation. So Rick, you've been performing and teaching for a really long time and I have been a fan of your work for a really long time. From the first time I saw you and every time I see you, I'm always struck by what a talented performer you are. But I also am struck by the fact that your real passion, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't actually about being on stage and getting the attention for yourself. It's really about teaching and sharing improvisation with others. Yeah. I really enjoy performing and I find that very satisfying. It feels like a sugar rush a little bit that fades quickly. I feel like teaching and watching people get excited and fall in love with something that you are excited about feels really meaningful in a nice way. And part of what is nice about improv is that it's not just about being funny. So I think if it was just like, I'll teach you how to be funny, I don't know that I would feel deeply passionate about. I think it's more about the sense of presence and creativity and being playful and being less self-judgmental. I think a lot of those are things that help people not freak out all day long. It certainly helped me that way. So it feels like there's something meaningful that's being delivered in the almost by accident in the act of learning how to improvise. Well, so for people who aren't already familiar with your work, I mean, you're too humble to fully brag for yourself. But I will just say from my perspective, you are truly regarded as one of the single greatest improv teachers in the world. And you have taught everyone from you've taught children, you've taught senior citizens, you've taught people in big corporations, you've taught Ira Glass from This American Life, you've taught Zoran Mabdani, the mayor of New York before he was the mayor. So you've really taught this huge range of people and over many, many years. What do you think the biggest thing that a regular person, someone who is not interested in being a comedy professional gets out of learning improv? I think managing uncertainty improv is making up an idea, a scene, a story on the fly. And the inherent nature of that is that you cannot be in control of where it's going to go. And I think people's brains do not like change and that kind of disruptive feeling. And so there's this protective cognitive shell that we throw around where we lock into ideas or we kind of disconnect from what's actually going on. And I think it's not that improv makes you better at knowing what's going to happen. I think if you watch with a good improviser, it kind of seems like they know where it's going, but you don't develop this kind of clairvoyance. You instead just get very comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and managing uncertainty. But the extra anxiety on top of it of managing that uncertainty of all the stuff that I can control, I think, becomes that you don't turn it off entirely, but that voice gets quieter. I think I've noticed that it's kind of not possible to be bored if you're hanging out with three or four improvisers. It's not really like because if nothing's happening, well, it's kind of not really possible. You're sitting at the airport terminal and there's a delay. Instead of people just complaining all the time, I feel like people just look around a little bit and I'm like, look at how that guy walks. That's interesting. That sign doesn't make any sense. Why do they call it Hudson News? There's just a kind of curiosity about the present moment that I think does translate off of that stage a little bit. The way that we are talking right now is actually kind of a great illustration of what building the muscles of improvisation have allowed you to do because we are talking not around the day that you are moving across continents. We were literally like, you are doing this interview and then in several hours, you will leave for the airport to move from the United States to Europe. You seem so unbothered by that. The fact that we're talking now and then you're going to have to leave to the airport and bring your family to an entirely new continent. Even though I have studied improv too, I would be pouring sweat and so stressed and yet you seem remarkably unstressed about the fact that you're about to do a transcontinental move. I might be missing a section of my brain, but I do think that I taught all my classes yesterday, like Sundays a day that I teach and perform and my classes were like, when are you moving? I was like, tomorrow. They were all like, why are you here? Yes, that's exactly right. I didn't understand the question, the reaction. I was like, teach on Sundays. This is the last class. I feel like improv is like, I've heard from people it's like, it helps on dates and job interviews or whatever. Not that that's the purpose of it, or like how, why you should do it. But it is one of those things where anything, where you're in this situation, where you feel a little nervous, you don't know how it's going to go. Someone might ask a question you weren't expecting. It's a lot of just managing that moment a little bit. And I think you're doing that through an enhanced set of listening skills a little bit, like just paying attention, being in the moment, noticing stuff. But also, like, I think it builds self confidence in a more genuine way. You know, it's not about like, I don't know, pretending to be this confident person. It's like improv is a lot of, as I'm sure you felt, learning it and getting really good at it, right? It's like you are trying your hand at it and not great at it at first, but you're doing this context where people are building off of every idea you say, no matter how bad it is, and people support you. So you kind of get to prove your ideas of validity to yourself. I feel like I constantly was having moments where I was like, I don't know what I should do and then I would say a thing and you're seeing partners like, great. Yeah. And then you're like, okay, yeah, that was good. You know, like it is like putting the bumpers up on the bowling alley lane so you like can't actually get a gutter ball. And that's what improv like feels to me. In a lot of ways, it reveals like a truth that we all know, right? Which is that you can actually only control the thing in the present moment, right? Like you only control what you're doing right now. You've acknowledged the truth that like a lot of us pretend that we don't. Do I wish I had packed more earlier? Absolutely. You know, it's not that like you do, you like learn the skill and then you stop like planning for things. It's just like, no matter how much you plan, you can't control everything. And so planning is really good, but it's just, it's never going to go exactly how you think it's going to go and it's never going to be. And I think some of that also like, there's a reduction of anxiety. There's also kind of when you're so anxious and worried about it and it, it saps you from the present. You're missing out on all these really wonderful moments. We both have like young kids and I wonder if you felt some of this being with like a little kid where they just like stop and like look at a leaf. Totally. And they will sit there and look at a leaf for like five minutes. And it's not an activity that I often do, like walk around, but it's awesome. Looking at her leaf totally rocks. And I should stop more and look at a leaf like thinking about all the 10 things I have to do. I'm kind of missing the thing that is happening. And in improv, as you're building scenes, that's where a lot of the joy and discovery comes from, that we get to figure out these fun ideas together. And in life, it feels like when I remind myself to do that, I'm like, actually, I noticed stuff. I noticed things that are beautiful or sad or interesting or compelling or funny or whatever it is. Yeah. Well, one of the things that I think is so great about spending time with a young kid is they combine what we've been talking about like that real presence in the moment, because they just live in the moment, but they also combine it with this silliness. Yeah. And I think it's not always intentional with a kid, but I think as an adult, this is the other flip side of improv is the silliness and play that I love. I mean, I was trying to think in preparation for this interview, what my first memory of you was, and it was watching you perform at an improv festival, I think it was in Boston. And you were an anthropomorphized, a gumball machine, and you were performing as the gumball machine. And it was so silly. And I just remember laughing so hard, like truly tears coming down my cheeks as I was watching you be. Sometimes doing improv, it's like someone who gets blackout drunk, they don't remember what they did. You're like, if you say so. Yeah, yeah. Well, also you've done this like thousands of times. That sounds fun. I would do that again if I did that. That sounds great. Yeah. Well, but this is what I mean. It was really fun, but it was also so silly. Like you were in the moment pretending to be that, but also that's not something that like you could be very in the moment for your whole life and never pretend to be a gumball machine because there's a silliness there that is also like that, bringing that childlike play back into your life as an adult is also a big piece of this too. I think that's part of also what it's like. It feels like kind of meaningful silliness, you know, because it's, um, it's a collaborative thing, not like a, the kind of like silly, jokey thing that feels like unfun is like talking to someone and they're just like, they're trying to take everything you say and like be funny, you know, and do a bit. And it's, it's kind of, um, intolerable, you know, because it's not really like a genuine, um, engagement with you versus this sense of, of kind of playfulness where they're there and engaging with you, but they're just seeing the world with a playful eye and, you know, pretending to be a gumball sheen that was alive would probably not be very fun if I was doing with a bunch of people who acted like what I was doing was so lame and stupid. And, but you're doing in this context where everybody else, I'm sure I don't remember that show, but I'm sure they were all like, this is great. And they like built around it. And so it's kind of like, you learn over time that like one, like the, the confidence and the lack of like self criticism, I think is actually like what the audience is engaging with. Like they want to watch you guys like play in this like full, um, fully present way. And also you're like freed up to do that through the support of it. Like I don't know that I have, it didn't mean to like do that by myself, you know, to just be everybody's, you know, you know, people have your back and they're going to make whatever you do look good. It just creates this huge, um, space where you actually feel like you can't fail or it's kind of like not even on you to figure out like why it's good. It's like, how are people going to do that job? And I think that, um, that's a huge part of it is the like rapport and the trust and like the corporate term of like psychological safety. I get to think of that as like a lot of what improv is building. This is what I have trouble sometimes explaining to people who haven't done improv a lot, um, or even people who are improvisers who just improvise in a different way than I do is that, um, I think the skill is really great. And I think it builds these cool muscles of attention and playfulness and, and connectivity. But to me, the thing that actually I really love to the most about improv, and I like doing stand up too. I like doing all sorts of comedy. Um, but the thing that I loved the most about improv was when you perform a lot with the same people. So not just once, right? Like once you still feel that, oh, you have my back, but like when you really get to know each other and you know what they think is funny and you know the things that they have references for and the things that they don't have cultural references for, um, that like deep knowledge of each other combined with the trust that you're going to make each other look good. That to me was like, what was so magic was being in a, in a moment where I knew like my friend, Tim actually does not know anything about Shakespeare. And yet if I say to him, yeah, you're a famous Shakespearean actor, he will immediately pretend to be a Shakespearean actor and he'll say everything wrong and we will just agree that that is correct. And the audience will laugh because it's so obvious how he does not know Shakespeare and yet he's going for it because we're all going to make him look good on that. Like that is the joy, I think. Yeah, it is really nice to be in a supportive context. I remember going back to my college improv team, like reunion show, and there are a bunch of folks there who I hit and provides with, I was a freshman and they were seniors. I really only did improv with them for one year and they were now, this was 10 years after I graduated. So it was everybody was a full adults and I have seen people yet in a long time. And it was that thing of like, you kind of expect, oh, it's that person. Then you're kind of hanging out and you're like, oh, we actually don't know each other that well at all because I haven't talked to you in 10 years. And then we did the show. It kind of felt like no time to pass, just so weird because it was like, oh, yeah, I actually didn't know these people in this like social way that much. I wasn't like hanging out with them every weekend necessarily, but I knew them in this playful way. The way I knew them is this like language of communication that we have as for improvising together. There is that weird kind of connection where you're like, oh, yeah, I just feel like we're like on the same wavelength at this point. And I also think it's a feeling you can get in a really like long term relationship, whether that is, you know, a romantic relationship or a friend relationship. But improv, I think, especially the way that you teach it, it can be a way to, it's a shortcut to get there. You can get that kind of emotional intimacy and that safety with people in a much shorter amount of time, which is why I think a lot of people do really value this in like a corporate or work setting or universities because you want to have that closeness, but you don't have, you know, 10 years of hanging out to get to that place. I do think it is helpful in all the ways that we're talking about, but it's not like you go in the room being like the entire point of everything we're doing is to be more confident or to be a better doctor or to have friends or whatever. Yeah. It's kind of like you learn and grow through the act of like trying to develop a craft and like trying to like do this task together. I think a lot of people I know who I feel like are really, I don't know, I admire or mature in these ways. I do think like in a weird way, sometimes a lot of them kind of found themselves through the act of doing a thing that wasn't the purpose of it wasn't to like fix them or make them something better or whatever. It was just kind of like they got really into like rock climbing or they got super into like playing the piano or whatever it is. And then in each one of these like skills or whatever, if you apply yourself to it, it has like different lessons to teach you, you know, like, like learning and amusement takes a kind of dedication and like a commitment to practice that, for example, improv does not require anything, you know. So yeah, like rock climbing requires a little bit of like facing like physical fears in a way that like improv is scary, but not like I'm going to fall off the rock way. And yet many people do feel that. I think a lot of people feel that like visceral physical fear of like I'm going to be in front of people performing, being silly. Like that is, I think a lot of people fear that more than falling off the rock. But you kind of know that you're actually not going to die when you are rock climbing. You might actually die. Yeah, I guess that's true. So it's like, I think each one of these things, like it's like pulling different parts of a potential version of you kind of out. Like your current personality is like interacting with this like craft or skill or game or sport or or activity and like having that right angle on it versus. Yeah. When I have students who are like, for example, they're like really obsessed with getting good. It's actually really unfun energy to perform with. Like I just want to do it right, you know. And it's kind of like people are like, yeah, this is cool. I'm going to, you know, keep doing it and see how it goes. Like that actually turns into building a lot of skills pretty quickly. So there's something kind of nice about it that like we have this group task and the actual focus is not on like what I'm getting out of this, what I'm supposed to do. It's all on helping the group, helping the moment, helping the scene being present so that it can be successful kind of requires forgetting yourself in it, which I think is like a really one of the active ingredients and like why this thing is fun and also like meaningful in a way that doesn't feel like disposable. You're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Did I talk too much? I should have handled that better. Why can't I just let it go? Why did I do that? I wish I would have stopped you so much. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counselling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals, get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit BetterHelp.com forward slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. That's Anaya or more accurately, her toddlers. Even with her hands full, Anaya has more energy than she knows what to do with. Our team of expert installers helped her fit solar panels. Now she powers her home the way she wants and can sell the surplus back to the grid. If only the kids bedtime went as smoothly. Taking control with solar. That's good energy. Join us at goodenergy.co.uk. Ever feel like no one will love you as you truly are? The new spicy sapphic romance novel Off Book follows actors Petra and Sage as they fight to exist in a world that won't accept their love. The book asks, who is our family? The ones who raised us or the ones who love us as we are? Check out Off Book by Sylvie Braille at bit.ly slash dark harbor. That's bit.ly slash d-a-r-k-h-a-r-b-o-u-r bit.ly slash dark harbor. Now available on Kindle Unlimited. And we are back. The funniest people who I've ever done improv with are often almost clueless as to why the laugh is happening. And it's because they're so committed to just like saying the thing that they're seeing or they say something that is unusual but is true to what they're feeling. And that gets this huge laugh and it's so fun to play with them because they're they're unexpected but they're also genuine. And that's that's something that doesn't really work in other contexts. But I think in real life we love that too. Right. Like you walk into a room and it smells really bad and a bunch of people are pretending like it doesn't smell bad. And then someone just goes, it smells horrible in here. That person calling out the reality of it is often the person where you're like, OK, at least that one person is real. And I think in an improv scene, that's often the funniest thing that a person can do is just to say exactly what has happened. Oh, totally. Yeah. I'm remembering a guy who used to perform at the theater who was like, he was like one of the worst actors I'd ever seen in my entire life. But he had this incredible stage charm. He was just like one of these guys that his action personality lacked that like sensory. He was just like it never occurred to him to not say exactly what popped into his brain, even if there was no possible way to justify or explain why that is. And so it's like on paper he would be like making the wrong choice, but it always felt joyful and fun. And it was so fun to play with because you knew it was like authentic and genuine versus someone who's kind of like you probably talk a lot about like, yes, right, like how can I build up this idea? So it's like, sometimes I'm going to start a scene and they're like, dad, I have to go to the potty. The other person's like, son, you're 35. And it gets this kind of cheap laugh where it's kind of like that laugh kind of comes at the expense of your partner. Like, you know, they don't think they're 35, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, what really matters actually is not whether we get the ideas right. It's that we're trying to do it. So it's kind of like, what was my honest read on your thing? And if I get it wrong, it actually still feels really fun and joyful. You know, people talk about, yes, and is like, we agree. And then we built, but I think there's this other piece in exactly what you said, right? Someone starts to see and then they say, uh, I have to go to the potty daddy. And then the person says, son, you're 35. The reason denying what that person said, it doesn't work like on a technical comedic level. It gets this cheap laugh and doesn't keep going. But the thing that I've, it took me a long time to put my finger on is one of the things that is so beautiful about improv is like, I walk on stage and I am not my physical form. I am not like a white dad in his late thirties. Right. I could be anything. I could be a giant red balloon. I could be a gum ball machine. I could be a gum ball machine. I could be a spaceship. I could be a tiny little squirrel. I could be a woman from 1835, right? Like I could be anything. And so what you have to do as your as the partner is to pay attention to how that person is defining themselves. Yeah. And if you don't and you just put a definition on them that is not true to what they've said in the scene, it's you kind of like putting your preconceptions on them. And you see this a lot of times where people like won't let, for example, like a female improviser, they won't let them play a male character. And it's like, well, that is you bringing all your own crap into the scene rather than actually existing in the scene. And I think that's like, that's where the beauty is, is like actually just seeing the person as what they are claiming to be and defining themselves as rather than your idea of who they have to be. You know, five students in their 60s and 70s, like, you know, some of them will come out and be like, nice kickflip. And the other person's like, thanks, grandpa. And it's like, I don't think he thought he was your grandpa. You know, like, you know, people who are 24, like only they maybe don't have a bunch of friends who are 75. So they're only association to like, you're my grandpa, right? And it's like, it's that cool way of seeing kind of beyond each other. Like, let's take the thing of, um, uh, I need to go to the potty Sunday or 35, right? So if you do it the opposite way, where it's like, dad, I need to go to the potty. Right. Good and prices are just getting as much possible information as out of it is can. So not only did I tell you that you're my dad, but I think I probably pretty strongly imply that we are not at home. Right. Because if they can use the potty, like they could maybe go by themselves at a certain point, you know, or whatever, like they, but there's also something in the tone of voice. It's like, I kind of need your help, whatever. So, you know, if we're at home, I do need you to like help me. I'm not able to like go by myself kind of thing. You actually already have narrowed the frame in a subtle way, but if you're ignoring all that to get this joke, you actually, you know, you're going to should not pick up on any of those potential information. So you like lose it. And if you really think about what you're doing there on a cognitive level, and you're kind of thinking, what do I think you think is true about the sea? And because this is a fictional world, I'm essentially asking myself, how are you seeing the world? It's kind of like the literal definition of empathy, right? It's like trying to see the world from someone else's eyes. And I do think that's kind of like why that thing works is I have to do this perspective taking in order to not just understand what did you say or do, but like what was not where are you going with it? Because there is no, we're not in control of that. But like given all of the clues I have, what do I think you think is happening right now? Right. I actually do buy into why so many like business people or leaders or, you know, people in stressful situations take improv workshops is for the exactly that. Right. Because how do you not bring your own ideas about what this person is telling you, but instead really hear what someone is saying and get all the information out of it to not put them in a box, but rather to actually like hear what's in the moment is a really incredibly and super valuable skill for a leader. I did a workshop with a bunch of physicians recently and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about the difference between yeah and yeah. So like, it's like, okay, does it hurt? Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. They're different, right? Like one is like eight and the other is like 6.5 or whatever. Right. But it's all in the tone. And I think like, my interesting things that a lot of doctors get trained kind of like how salespeople get trained sometimes where it's like, here's the like the things you're going to say. And then depending on what they answer, you're going to go down this pathway or this pathway where it's like, I'm asking you these 12 questions right in a row. And so I might hear the actual answers you give, but if I'm in my head thinking about what the next question is, I now may be missing some of the like little human things, which, which is ultimately like, I sometimes want to go to the doctor. I don't just want like information about what is wrong with me, but I want someone to like, um, tell me that I'm going to be okay. You know what I mean? Which is like an emotional need that is not a medical one. And you're not going to pick up on that in the symptoms that I present. You're going to pick up on that and like noticing my body language and my facial expressions and my tone of voice. So you walk into a room full of doctors and you are there to lead an improv workshop. What's an exercise that you do with them that you feel like unlocks something inside of them? A lot of what we start with is just warming up, do a little name game, get to know each other, have a little fun, some group exercises. Just so people can feel like, Oh, this is actually not so hard. And we're doing it. Um, there's a yes and exercise that I often use in these workshops at companies. Um, and in level one in prep class, it's called alibi. Do you remember this game, Chris? I don't know. Remind me. Okay. It's great. So the setup is like, I'm the facilitator. I am, uh, a parent and then we get two people up and they are, um, my teenage children who are siblings. And so the setup is that like they're coming home late, past their curfew. And what they've really been doing is they were at a party. Okay. But, uh, I will ground them. That's not a good reason to be late. Right. So instead, the two teenagers have to come up with a lie on the spot about why they're late. If they contradict each other, that's when I know that they're lying. But if they support each other, then they might get out of trouble. So if I'm like, why are you late? And the person was like, Oh, we got stuck in traffic. But then the other person was like, no, we didn't. We were swallowed by a whale. Uh-huh. Okay. You know, but it was like, Oh, we got stuck in traffic. Yeah. Um, there was a big event at the aquarium. Yeah. And they brought, they, they, they, they, they having a, a blue whale. So the first time ever blue captivity, et cetera, et cetera. So now we're like riffing off of each other. The context is very intuitive that we are on the same team. And it's not, I'm not trying to win this game. We both succeed by making each other look good. Okay. And then what about muscle building exercises that people do? I mean, I'll tell you one that I think of a lot, which is like seven things. So it's just naming seven things in the category. And I think of that as just a great way of getting out of the idea of right and wrong, right? But you give somebody category, they name as fast as they can. So, um, uh, Chris, um, seven, uh, winter, a little big sports. Okay. Um, ready? Yeah. Skiing. One. Sledding. Two. Bob sledding. Three. Ice skating. Four. Ice skating with jumping. Five. Ice skating with falling. Six. Um, rocket launching. Seven. Yeah. And cereal. Okay. Eight. Yeah. Great. And then you, you did the thing too, which is like, okay, now do a version where like explicitly you have to be wrong. So I'm going to give you a category and it's only incorrect answers. Oh, great. Okay. Let's do that. That's fun. Seven made up incorrect breakfast cereals. Okay. Um, Sardine trans. One. Um, King cobra. Two. Uh, sharp edges. Three. Um, square buttons. Four. Um, taco littles. Five. Giant squares. Six. Uh, tree balls. Seven. Amazing. Okay. And then if this is a group of people who've done as a member before, often like play that game and when people say the answers that are wrong, even experience surprises, you can see their face going like, this is so stupid. Like sharp edges. What am I saying? But then I'm like, okay, now just do some scenes like with that as the start where it's like, so what brings you to the doctor today? Um, I think I had too many sharp edges at all. This morning, it's not going down well. You know, it's like when you're saying the wrong answer, your brain still kind of goes like, and then if someone else just takes that and is like, actually, I love that, I think that's brilliant. I went, I want to watch the Olympic sport that's skating with jumps. It's not figure skating. It's it's speed skating with jumps. It's like, it's like ice hurdles, you know? Yeah. Like taking the wrong thing and like figuring out, well, why could that be great is like such a good creative muscle. And that's where a lot of like actual solutions come from. It's not like when I'm running brain-surf sessions, it's exceedingly rare that the, the, the, the, the favorite idea by the end of the session started as someone saying something very safe and bland and ass covering. And then people riff that into innovativeness. Instead, it starts as someone saying something that is stupid, that is not practical and is maybe even actually literally a joke. And then it's, but it's got this kernel to it. And then someone says, like, yeah, we can't do that. But like, oh, what about that with this way? You know, and you're actually like working it into practicality. Right. I think if there's some reason why it can't be the obvious answer or like the, the 10% close to the obvious answer isn't right. That's where people struggle because even for me, right, just there, like, couldn't be lower stakes. It, it is uncomfortable to say things that are wrong and different and weird. And I love that that game just like builds the muscle of it where in the lowest stakes way, it's just like, OK, I'm just, I have to say something. The only unacceptable answer is nothing. The only thing that is not right is if I stop and wait until I can think of something that is quote unquote, correct. That's the only way to be wrong. It's about trying to get the right answer together. You know, like, like, like I'm trying to read your reality and like being wrong is fun and fine. If, if I'm generally doing it, I was having a class this summer and this, um, I don't know, kind of a middle-aged American guy. I think I can't remember now. Someone started a scene and was like, you know, basically doing speed, you know, the movie and they were like, I can't drive the bus below 50 miles an hour. It's going to explode. And the other person, I think it just moved from like Taiwan or Singapore. Like they've been in the country like three months. They were 20, like three. They have not seen the nineties action movie. Oh, they were just like, slow down. You're hurting my tummy. You know, it was like, it was such a much funnier scene being like, there is no bomb actually. It's just like the bus driver is crazy and he's making everybody like car sick. And it was like, oh yeah, we met in this like middle space between both people's associations. So it's like, it's actually not even knowing the reference. It's just like, I'm taking the text of what you gave me. I'm making my best interpretation of it. And actually like both people had more fun in the new third scene that was created out of both of their ideas than either one of them would have had if the scene had just gone exactly like each of them was expecting. It makes sense. I think that's like why we're trying to, why, why do we get together to be created? Why do we do brainstorm sessions with people? Why do we like riff? It's because there's this kind of like, I'm an open of a weird metaphor, but like, it's like a gene pool of ideas. Like if it's just me riffing myself, it's like, I'm not getting enough like genetic diversity, you know, in the gene pool. It's like zoos got to trade their animals. We'll look like the other zoos, right? It's like, you have different experiences than I do. And you have slighter associations or very different associations than I do. And that's not a weakness. That's a strength. When I say something, you're going to have this slightly different association to it, and then your response is not going to do what I was expecting. And vice versa. You've taught a lot of people for many years. Have you ever done a private improv lesson? Like for one person? Is that even possible? What would it be like? If people are determined to pay me to do it, I will be grabbed. I'll be genuinely do it. Like sometimes I'll do public speaking training for like executive folks. And I'm always trying to get them to do a small group with a couple of their colleagues. And like the higher people up are, the more nervous they are about that. Um, because it's so much more fun. It like opens up the kinds of exercises you can do. And then it feels like, okay, it's not just one person and then me like, Hey, try this. It's like the two or three of us. You need someone to play with, you know, in a lot of these exercises, like it's kind of involved in balancing off the other person. And a lot of the benefits that we were talking about earlier, I think come from that bowling alley, um, bumper gutter thing. So it's kind of like, if the goal is to like build your creativity and confidence, I think actually doing that by yourself might seem less scary, but it's ultimately like less, um, less impactful than having at least one other person there who you have to like trust and like put yourself out there for. Cause then they are the bumper that helps in your, their bumper. Like you're both kind of nudging each other back on the lane in these nice ways. Because of this podcast and because of the book that I wrote, I've interviewed several therapists and psychologists who study anxiety. And one of the things that they all talked about that feels really related here is how, um, one of the most effective treatments for people who are anxious is to just have them test the thing that they're afraid of against reality. Right. Like you're afraid that if you go out in the street, something terrible will happen. So let's go out in the street for five minutes. Just see, like you're walking on the sidewalk. There's something terrible happened. No. Okay. Maybe that means that like it's a valid fear, but it's not a guaranteed thing that is going to happen. And I think the reason why speaking and playing in a group of people is so helpful is I think it does take that fear that people have of like, I need to prepare all alone because otherwise things are going to be disastrous when people hear me speak in public to just go like, let's do it. Let's have a disaster in front of some people and see how bad it is. And it ends up not being bad at all. It ends up being fun. I mean, I wonder if this is, you're not always interviewing people who do a thing that you also are. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Chris is also very helpful. He's also extremely good at improv and knows a song about it. Like, what is Chris before doing improv or comedy or performing? And like now, like, can you really feel this like phase shift of like the way it's kind of like shaped you? Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. That's Mike. Last month, our experts helped him install solar panels on his office. Now that he's generating his own power, he's more in control of his costs and can meet his emission targets more easily. Probably why he's feeling so upbeat. What a lovely day. Getting your energy from a great British B Corp. That's good energy. Join us at goodenergy.co.uk. This is an ad by Beth Dalp. Did I talk too much? I should have handled that better. Why can't I just let it go? Why did I do that? I wish we would stop doing so much. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counselling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals. Get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit betterhelp.com forward slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. Hi guys, it's Jamie and Sophie from Newly Parents and we're sponsored by Motorway, the easy way to sell your car for a great price. So becoming New Parents has definitely made us realise how much stuff you actually need every day, especially in the car. And with Motorway, selling your old one is one less thing to worry about. Yeah, yeah, that's so right. So basically you can get an instant valuation and profile your car from your phone. Then they put it onto their daily online auction where 8000 plus verified dealers compete to give you their best offer. This means you don't need to be an expert to sell your car. They guide you through the whole thing. Plus the dealer collects it from your driveway and pays you the very same day. And on average, sellers get one thousand six hundred pounds or more than part exchange. Claims apply, see Motorway.co.uk forward slash claims. Find out what your car's worth today on Motorway.co.uk. And if you sell your car on Motorway this June, you can win a BMW one series worth over 40,000 pounds. It's a great question. I mean, my honest answer is that I think so much of who I am is because of doing improv and comedy and I started doing it when I was young. So I wasn't like a fully formed person yet. You know, I was like in college and still figuring out who I was. So it's hard for me to say like this is who I was before because I think the formation of who I am, it's kind of tied to it. But I think the biggest thing was realizing that the best thing I could do if I wanted to look good was to not make myself look good, but to make the people that I was there with look good. Like that that was the secret trick is you want everyone to enjoy the show. Don't make it so you're the best person in the show. Make it so the other person on stage is the best person in the show. And then they're trying to do the same thing. And through that, you all look great. I think that was a really big lesson because I think that's counterintuitive to how I'm wired, where I would like to be regarded as the best person in the show. You know, I'm like, right. But what if I did this and then realizing that that actually was always the way to backfire and make yourself look bad is to, you know, try and steal the joke rather than give the joke away. And I mean, not like steal the joke, like steal like a written joke, but like steal the punchline, steal the laugh rather than like give the laugh to your partner. Is that thing of like, am I worried about like how I'm looking? You know, it's just it's not a comfortable space and it is more fun. Actually, like long term, it is more enjoyable and fun to try to make other people succeed. Yeah. Because the kinds of things that you all can do is a group when everyone is playing that way far, far at pace. What you can do if everybody is out there trying to get their own individual laughs and make themselves look good. It's like a basketball team where like everybody's shooting the second they get the ball. It's like, you're not going to play well. You need people to like cut and drive and set picks and hustle and defense. I'm like, it's funny watching the all story game in like every sport because it sucks so much. It's like all the best people and like they don't know how to play with each other. So like everyone has like maxed out the skill levels, but like you kind of need some guy who like doesn't make, you know, the all star salary, who's his only job is to like just harass people on defense at the free point line or whatever. Right. Like these pieces all have to fit together in some way. And in probably it's not like you have this designated role, but it's kind of like we're all trying to like be whatever the show needs that night. Kind of across the board, any successful creative person I've talked to or no, will tell you that one of the biggest differences between like when they actually became successful and before when they had this idea of what it meant to be a musician or a writer or a comedian or whatever it is that they do an artist. One of the most consistent things that I really just feel like everyone experiences is I thought this was a thing that you do alone or you do just with your little group, like your little band. And then they realized that success is actually being part of a scene is actually being like supported and challenged and inspired by other people. And so even in the fields that are like like a novelist is not a team sport. And yet it is such an unbelievably rare novelist whose work is not the product of their relationships and their creative partnerships and the people who inspire them. And so that thing of like together we are smarter than we could ever be alone. I've heard, I think Brian Eno is the one who coined this term, seniors, like not genius, but seniors. It's the genius of the scene. And I think that is such a profound creative truth. I was just talking to someone about music that like pre-internet, any non-commercial genre was hyper geographically focused. I remember like all the grunge bands came out of Seattle, right? And like most of the eighties thrash metal bands were like from San Francisco. I'm a metalhead, so this is most of my like knowledge, but like, like of the like top 10, like seminal eighties death metal bands, like all 10 of them are either from Tampa Bay, Florida or Birmingham, England. It's so random because it's kind of like you could not hear like guttural death metal on the radio. Like you could only see it at a show or someone played it for you. So it was like, there was a band in Tampa Bay and like they were, they figured the thing out and then people watch it and they were like, let's try something like that. And they were all, it was this kind of collective thing. And like when you go to write a novel, you sit down by yourself, but you are also like in conversation with like all of the books that you've ever read and all of the knowledge that's been passed to you and all of your experiences, all kind of rattling around in there. And yeah, it is like being able to see and watch people do it is itself kind of part of the the seniors and like part of the conversation about it. Okay. Before we go, is there another exercise or improv activity that you like that? We could do with just two, just the two of us. Do we want to do a little fortunately, unfortunately? And it's like a really simple one that will play pretty well in audio or video. Yeah, okay. This is like a warm up game. It's like not like too deep of a game, but it's really just simple, fun warm up for like the managing uncertainty thing. So this is a game that like anybody can do. They don't have to practice or done in prof. So feel free to play this at home. We're going to make a story together and we're going to build it one sentence at a time. So I'll give the first sense and then every other sense after that is going to alternate either beginning with the phrase fortunately or unfortunately. So if I said I went to the pet store to get a puppy, then the next then you would say like, unfortunately, the pet store only had lizards. And then I would say like, fortunately, I'm a huge lizard fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, the only lizard left was a Komodo dragon. Fortunately, I've got a huge yard, etc. Would you like to be fortunately or unfortunately? I'll be fortunately. So I'll start with a bit of a negative news. I was walking to the train and I tripped on the curb. Fortunately, you're going to get a huge class action settlement. Yeah. Unfortunately, I just can't stand lawyers. You know, like I really don't have it in me to just deal with being in court. Fortunately, your lawyer also hates other lawyers. Yeah. Unfortunately, my lawyer is my ex and it's just been real intense doing these filing the paperwork. Fortunately, this presents an incredible opportunity for you to to sort through all of the issues that drove you apart in your relationship. Unfortunately, I'm also remembering why we broke up. Fortunately, she's really starting to see that you weren't as bad as she had made you out to be. Unfortunately, she's already fallen in ad-lib love with Dale, her new partner. Fortunately, Dale seems like a cool guy. Unfortunately, he doesn't like me at all. Fortunately, Dale is teaching you about setting clear boundaries, a lesson you needed to learn. Unfortunately, I am a slow learner. Awesome. Great. Yeah. Yeah. It's super silly game and it's like fun in that it always goes adression that is literally impossible to predict from the first sentence. I did this a while ago and the first sentence was, you're walking into a restaurant for a first date and then it's a group of 20 people. And the very first person said, unfortunately, I had a heart attack and died in the restaurant. And I could feel the whole group go like, well, what are we going to do now? And the next person was like, fortunately, I became a ghost, a friendly ghost who haunted the restaurant and helped people have good dates. And this whole story became about how we were helping other people on their dates as a ghost. And it was like, the thing that feels like you've quote unquote ruined it or that's a mistake, actually turns out sometimes to be the best part of the idea that is the memorable portion of it. I love that. The thing that you think is the disaster might turn out to be the greatest gift of all. Well, Rick Andrews, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And this was no exception. Thanks, man. And can I say, I'm sure listeners who don't know you might wonder, gosh, he seems like a really nice guy. But, you know, sometimes in real life, people actually jerks. And I just want to confirm for everybody that Chris is the actual nicest person, one of the nicest people I know. And on the planet. Oh, that's so nice. I thought you were going to go for the cheap punchline and say he's a monster. But I appreciate that. No, like you're so lovely and everybody who knows you feel the same way. Thanks, man. Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Rick Andrews. You can find him online at rickandrewsimprove.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, is out now. You can find out more about my book and all my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a group of Zip Zop Zops. On the Ted side, I'm getting Yes, And It by Daniela Balarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laini Lat, Tanzeh Kasung Maniwong, Antonia Lea, and Joseph DeBrain. Ryan Lash edits the video and picks the perfect moment to black out each scene. And Mateus Salas checks the facts to make sure we are not inventing our sources or statistics. On the PRX side, there are the Herald Knight of Audio, Morgan Flandering, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. You are the best scene partner I could ever ask for. Please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who has your back. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, don't make any plans. Just improvise. Ever feel like no one will love you as you truly are? The new spicy sapphic romance novel Off Book follows actors Petra and Sage as they fight to exist in a world that won't accept their love. The book asks, who is our family? The ones who raised us? Or the ones who love us as we are? Check out Off Book by Sylvie Braille at bit.ly slash dark harbor. That's bit.ly slash d-a-r-k-h-a-r-b-o-u-r. Bit.ly slash dark harbor. Now available on Kindle Unlimited. With Next SmartSaver, you can access cheap rates off-peak all week. Satisfy those savings cravings. Check out our full range of tailored energy solutions at eonnext.com forward slash save. Eonnext, we make energy savings work. Next SmartSaver is a 12-month fixed-hand tariff with lower off-peak and super off-peak unit rates versus our standard variable tariff. Smart meter required. Teasing sees a play. Hello, it's Giovanna Fletcher from Happy Mum and I'm sponsored by Motorway, the easy way to sell your car for a great price. As a mum, anything that helps take a little bit of mental load off is a win. And Motorway really does that. 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