Next To Heaven

This episode of the Redheads is brought to you by Quince. All four of us here at the Redheads absolutely love Quince. They have high quality fashion finds that are beautiful. They wear well. They're quality made and they will last you a long time. So if you want to up your wardrobe, check out Quince. Go to quince.com slash redheads for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. Welcome back redheads to another episode of the Redheads Book Club. Now I can't start this episode as if all's well and redheads are their regular redhead selves because we have been on a bit of a hiatus. I feel like everyone there's been so much mystery with the redheads. Are they coming back? Where has she been Serena? Where is she? We're here. We're back. 2026 is the year of the redheads. We'll get into all the rumors and address everything about our absence. but hey girls how you dern yay i'm so happy i'm so glad that you're addressing all of the drama so some of the things that people were saying about the redheads obviously the most like popular theory was that we were all like fighting and we couldn't record together anymore and the redheads were breaking up next theory i think people there were rumors of drug addiction in the group who um who did they think was the addicted one obviously you obviously you um but the truth is way less interesting dana and i were both on maternity leaves i think i thought i could do an episode sooner than i wanted to and i was just like you know what we'll pick this back up in the new year needed to listen to my body like was not in position to be reading podcasting editing all of that and i think dana felt the same way so like Dana and I will take responsibility for the Redheads absence and we do protect your peace we were just rejecting our peace not to say that the Redheads isn't peaceful and amazing and we're so grateful for this platform but it's just a lot sometimes even today like I've been so excited for this episode so excited to talk about this book I loved reading this book I loved reading even today just like getting four girls on the horn is a hard thing to do especially our little snitchy larue is a sicky larue snitchy larue has the flu i thought that's where you're going we were supposed to record yesterday but our sick satchel obviously couldn't so there's just always drama and i'm so glad to be reunited with my girls we are not breaking up we're not going anywhere and this month and reading this book has really proven to me like why we need the redheads because if not for this month's book I actually don't know when I would have ever read again I probably would have put my Kindles in storage like hung up my hat and been like can I utter those words that I've been on like since we've started this leave I've been on like so many trips and so many planes and I have forgotten my Kindle every single time like it has not been a priority it's been the craziest thing whereas normally it's like the first thing that I pack it's so out of character and being in a book club is easy when like your number one hobby is reading but this is where boys become men certainly it's true so we're gonna get into the book but we do need to do a major catch-up amongst the girlies I'm gonna start with Dana because last we heard from you Dana you were a mother of one now you're a mother of two tell us about your baby do the redheads even know his name like I don't know oh my god that is crazy I didn't take into account the time lapse of redheads and birth and yes everybody I did give birth on September 12th to Cole Martin Webman um he is even smaller than Reed and all has been good over here it's just like a lot of craziness because I moved I gave birth I went on maternity leave and now for the first time I'm finally enjoying my house because I haven't really like had a second to catch my breath and just being back with the redheads in my new office for the first time you guys have to see Dana's office I hope I clip something from this show she is at like a teak mahogany fireplace library office which you look like you're at Hogwarts you need to literally Josh take a picture of you like and where you like pose like make it like Instagram me thotty and we'll post it to the feed for recording well the hilarity is behind this stellar office is a like Joshua plaything from when he was a toddler. So the contrast of like this nice mahogany office and a Joshua, like I need to get rid of it. What's a Joshua plaything? Like what are you saying? Oh, it says Joshua. That's your husband's name. And it's a toy from when he was a baby. Yes. Yes. It'll make more sense when you see the picture, but it does not go with the rest of the office. Well, it goes with the redheads. yes and yeah I'm living large I'm very excited to just like have this month of my final maternity leave before I go back to work to take baths and hang out and catch up with my redhead girlies yes well we're excited to catch up with you Becky how you doing wearing your Spritz Society merch I know the last time I saw you Jax and Zach um he gave me this hat it is my absolute favorite my spritz merch is the best merch and I am obsessed with the hats they're the only ones I wear and today was just one of those days at the office where I was like I want to go incognito it spun up so much great conversation everybody loves the spritz society it was so fun we should be paying you but you're part of the spritz family vis-a-vis like our friendship and redheads like we're all interconnected a thousand percent I loved giving the spritz pitch though like truly Like I was like, okay, like my sales muscle's working. Oh, for sure. We got to get you some product. I mean, all I care about now is getting the red spritz hat, which I've sort of been like pining for ever since that Bloody Mary collab. So that's just, just know that. I feel like I might have one. No one's given it to you yet? No, I need it. Oh, no, you know what? Actually, I never got the Bloody Mary gifting. So rude. Otherwise, I would have given you one. No, what the hell? Well, it's okay. I'm patient. I know that I need to just sit pretty, but I'm great. Coming back from amazing break, we went to the Dominican Republic and extended our trip, which was like so liberating. I was like, what if we just stayed? And it was gorgeous. Everything's been good. But I've missed my like meetings with my girlies to keep me reading because on the exact same boat, it was taking me so long to find a book that I cared about that I wanted to sink my teeth in. And so this was it. Oh, my God. It was like I needed this, this like routine again. Yeah. Everything's been good, you guys. Same old, you know? Love that. Love. Sachi, how's my dear little sister? Sachi, I'm good. Aside from the fact that I have the flu, everything else has been good, which is just so annoying because like I really, this is not what I needed for myself and my life and the start of the year, you know, like I was just so ready to just like. Is the universe telling you to slow down, sister? Yeah, maybe. Or it's like, here, I'm giving you this now. Like, get all, like, this shit out. And then it's like, boom, this is your year. You know? It's like. Oh, so the opposite. Yeah, it's like, this is like, you're getting, like, we're breaking you down for right now so that you're good for the rest of the year. Like, this is my sickness of the year. We're slowing you down to speed you up. To get you ready to speed up. Exactly. Oh. And to let you enjoy the last half of the year because you were, where were you? I don't know how many planes I can count on Instagram these days. But, like, without – I'd rather you have the flu now than on the ship. No, it's so true. Did you see the Naders in Aspen? I didn't see them. But, like, I kept being where they were, like – but we were just, like, missing each other. Ships in the night. Ships in the night. Sad about that one for me personally. I do love them. Yeah. And Margot was on the show. Yeah, let us not forget. I was on the show. We have a TV star on the pod. No, yeah, no, I'm friendly with them. They are – I really, like, love those girls. They're so nice. um oh i love those girls i do i do um but yeah besides that all good everything's good life is good i can't complain besides the fact that i am sick but you know alas i will survive and here we are and jacks how are you jacks how are you i am good i'm in the whirlwind today is max's two month birthday of his birth. Little babe. So happy birthday Matt. He's so fresh to this earth. He is two months old today which is very exciting. Still very little but I'm now like back at work so like trying to find some routine but not really just like having a newborn and working and not really like putting pressure on the schedule or whatever. uh so it's good I've just been like so in the trenches and trying to enjoy this special fleeting time fleeting time how's it been at the toast the toast has been amazing like hysterical funnier than ever have you guys been listening like your sister and your friend is so funny that's the best part of this maternity leave I finally can listen to the toast in like a normal cadence which is daily and Jackie you guys are back we're so back it's incredible I want to get in that Oh you want to be in the chat Yeah I was like I don't know if I fully qualify But like as a friend and as a lover of gossip and lore I need to be in the chat And I want to prove to you that I'm listening Oh so Margo doesn't listen to the toast I don't you know I don't And I feel like Dana do you know what chat Oh yeah and I will not be the Ashley Tisdale Let me just say that right now Yeah because Claudia and I were saying like We should start a celebrity mom chat You should We're celebrities and we have like celebrity mom friends but also like you also need like regular people too not that anyone on this podcast is regular because we have a podcast so we're like automatically extremely famous um but so we were talking about it like who we would add to the chat on the show and we were like let's see if anyone like reaches out did anyone reach out about this uh lauren elizabeth followed up she was mentioned as someone who would be in the chat and then someone major just reached out about wanting to join the chat oh offline i'd like to talk i'll just tell you no i'll tell you it's stassi oh obsessed oh obsessed so now i think we have to now i think and by the way now you can get the tailors and then jackie yeah i'm thinking i told claudia that she should add elise myers if elise myers wants to be a part of the chat she's most welcome you are more than invited elise if you're listening yeah oh dana how are you doing regarding Amy Schumer and her divorce oh my god we need like a whole separate episode just for that yeah absolute spiral well she I've been mostly tracking her real estate because I'm trying to sell my apartment and I'm like did Amy sell hers is there any hope she sold for like three million under ask like it's not good but it did didn't she I thought I saw somewhere that she bought two for six and a half million dollars yeah yeah oh no she's just like buying and selling but her 19 cranberry apartment in brooklyn was not going easily and not the 19 cranberry like she's a fruit stream is she is she living there currently because we'll have to cut this out because everybody no no no she hasn't been living there for a long time you're sure you look through the window i am a hundred percent positive when she went through the trash she realized it was someone new bills my heart goes out to her though she's clearly in a dark place but do you stand by her like there's nothing she could do or say that's going to change how you feel about her like always ride or die but i'm the first to admit that she's like fully having a mental i just want to say i don't think she's having a mental breakdown i feel like her instagram are like congruous with what she's always posted which is like wacky ass shit you know it's not like she's never done similar things before who is this person it's just amplified times a thousand and she's never been this skinny before maybe when she did train wreck she was she's on glp ones oh that's not what i know i know i know that's not what concerns me her size is not it's her posting her like erratic posts and then like the posting and deleting and the posting and deleting that it feels red flag ish yes but the posts about how hot she looks and all those bikinis that her mom took before the trip like this is just next level amy like i don't know skinny crazy amy i know fat kind of crazy amy sometimes i just want to say like other than other people saying that she's having a mental breakdown like i think her social media behavior is congruous with what it's always been which is just like wacky I hope you're right because if Amy's like really down a dark path then I don't know what I'm gonna do right you'll follow like do you stay that destabilizes like your core it was so funny you were actually the first to break the news to me which was crazy like I hadn't even been on I had to handle it delicately I had to like call her and say Dana turn off the tv I could I could have read it any other way social media and then all of a sudden Josh goes why am I getting texts about Amy Schumer checking in on me because he's gonna need to be there for you yeah yeah so that's how far it's extended thank you for asking it's been like a really trying time and I just hope like she comes out the other end and I'm excited to see who she dates next you guys speaking of social media mental breakdowns my Facebook got hacked probably five years ago but like completely wiped off the internet never thought anything of it I was like okay goodbye started a new one turns out it has been resurrected from the dead and the person who hacked me is posting like inspirational quotes about aviation that's so wholesome and people are reaching out being like are you well and I'm like well obviously I'm not but like for different unrelated unrelated completely I was like we're having simultaneous mental breakdowns but like This person is masquerading as me, posing inspirational quotes about flight. And are they going under the name Rebecca Rittenberg? Correct. It's her old profile. Here's the mouse person. Oh, Dana's pulled it up. I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know about any of this. I must see it with my own eyes when I have time. A gallery of photos by the American Southwest of cacti. If you've ever dreamed of aviation, I highly recommend a visit to the Cradle of Aviation Museum, where you can see 75 different classic airplanes in its cradle of aviation. Someone texts me, they go, is this you? No judgment if it is. I think it's you. So this is my long way of saying, hey, redheads, if anybody works at Meta slash Facebook, please reach out. I need your help. And if anybody's Facebook friends with the old Rebecca, that's not Rebecca. Correct. Okay. Well, thank you for clearing that up. Thank you. Well, let's get to the reason to tear today, which is our book I picked it a couple months ago I've been wanting to read this book since the summer we read Next to Heaven by James Frey so before we get into our thoughts DBQs ratings etc I'll just do a brief summary of the book which I had no idea what this book was about when I chose it I think I always read like the first three sentences of the summary but I don't want to know what the book is about so I just always like a wealthy prestigious community and what goes on above the surface is not what's beneath the surface so we follow a couple wealthy beautiful couples who are married they live in a pargy pastoral setting pretty much like Greenwich Bedford vibe I don't think it's called New Bethlehem I don't think that's like a real place but it's like modeled off of like you know the wealthiest town in America and these couples I guess they're a little like bored in their lives they organize a swingers party they invite three couples total and they interchange partners and everything sort of devolves from there um we see like the different relationships what's really beneath the surface in these relationships that seem perfect um watching them come apart and in the midst there is a murder mystery because one of the husbands from the swingers night uh is found murdered and who done it and why done it and they're all sort of like swapping partners the whole time and at the end we find out that um the woman he's having an affair with did it to pin it on her husband who is a horrible horrible person so it was a little bit mystery a little bit like my favorite genre of just like rich people doing things and the writing I thought was really really great So let get into our thoughts I go first and say I loved it It my favorite kind of book It my favorite topic And then what really put the cherry on top was just the writing was really on point, sophisticated, and the storytelling was really well done. I know James Frey is like a very popular author he's obviously like been controversial because he like made up his story like 20 years ago um but not to not say that he's a really legit author so it was really fun to read a fun book this was a fun book that was really well written I really enjoyed it Becky I really liked it I liked the first half in particular I was flying through it And again, to your point, it felt so good to sink your teeth into a book and feel excited and eager to read when I feel like I've been in a reading lull. So for that reason, I'm grateful to this book. I would say the second half kind of devolved a little for me. And I would say mostly it was the writing that confused me. So, Jax, I'm actually curious to talk through this with you because I felt like there were like countless run on sentences and like no punctuation. And I was like, is this intentional? And like, what is like going on right now? I don't really understand the intention behind it because I was like, is there like some underlying reason behind like why the writing is like this? I was thinking maybe it was like a stream of consciousness type connotation. But I want to tap into that with my redheads. I really liked it. I didn't think it was like amazingly well done, but I like the content, the plot. It did it for me. and I really enjoyed my time with this book. I'm grateful to this book. I look forward to discussing. Dana, what did you think? I like literally wrote such similar things down first that it empowered me to get back into reading in a way that I really needed. This is the longest lapse I've ever gone and this was just such like an easy thing to jump back into. I was honestly trying to like let it go for as long as possible because I didn't want it to end. I was like as soon as this ends, I'm back in my like rut where I don't want to read and this book is what's keeping me afloat the writing I definitely noted that I do think it was intentional I think like it was definitely meandering free-flowing run-on no punctuation this author does not like punctuations and I don't have like a perfect analysis for why but my thought was it kind of just like mirrored the characters themselves who were just fluid and interchangeable and lacked some death and kind of had this like emptiness to them. And I at first liked it. I was like, this is a unique writing style. And then by the end, I was like, I'm kind of over this. It's like getting annoying to read it this way. My one critique about this book is like, I feel like the author wrote it, just sat down and started typing and had no plan. Like there was no masterminding. What was going to happen? How was it going to end? It was not Verity. It was just like, oh, and now let's decide like this work without much thought put into it and it was hard to follow at points because I didn't know if it was supposed to be like this pre-calculated thing or if I was just supposed to enjoy the ride and I opted for the latter because if I looked into it too deeply I'd be like none of this makes sense. I would agree with that but I don't think that it doesn't make sense. I would agree that like other books leave crumbs along the way and maybe if I read it back again and I can even think back to like a couple crumbs where it really did where it seems like and you could tell that like Devin and Anna were planning something and now in hindsight it's like oh yeah and they did say the time will come the time and I felt like there were some crumbs along the way but it wasn't set up like a classic murder mystery because you didn't even know that there was going to be a mystery and a murder until halfway through the book so I agree with you on that that it's sort of just like changed into another book but again those are my two favorite genres in one book and I do wish we lingered more on the swingers party because I thought it was going to be a book like literally all about the party and what's going to happen and just like scenes and scenes of smut and I it was glazed over too quickly in my for my liking well I like how the swingers party was like the big event of the book that sets the novel on its course and it's three pages and then we just like go to the next day and the aftermath now I personally didn't need like all that smut and what I like about this book is that it's like sexy and fun but it wasn't pornography no smut at all yeah Sachi what did you think given no smut at all but there was some smut I actually really did. I really liked this book, but I don't know how like no one's talking about like the lack of punctuation. It was driving me fucking nuts with the conversations when it would be like when people would be having conversation and there's no quotations and I couldn't keep track of who was saying what. And also there was no fucking commas. So like they'd say something and like there was no grammar. No grammar in this book. So I don't know how that didn't bother anyone. I noticed the quotations thing. I don't know if you've been participating. in this episode so far by everyone do we mean but so far dina and i have talked exclusively about that's one topic and like genuinely like i'm worried like where were you where were you i have the where where were you when we were talking about the lack of commas i have thank you i was like does she mean the facebook group um but yeah that bothered me but Besides that, I actually really did like the book. I thought it was the perfect book. Because if we picked a dud to start again, oh, it was a coover. No, the redheads would have been over. Like, seriously, I wouldn't. Or I just, like, would have skipped this episode. Like, what got me to the recording station today was, like, we need to do justice for this book. That has given us a lot and brought us, resurrected the redheads. So I agree with you guys on that. And it was a very quick read. Today's episode of the redheads is brought to you by H.E.R.D. It's a new year and time to get back to feeling like yourself. If losing weight is one of your goals for this year and you're ready to make progress that you can count on, then Weight Loss by HERS might be the right fit for you. Reaching your weight loss goals doesn't have to mean completely changing the way you live your life. Through HERS, you're connected with a medical provider who determines if treatment is right for you. 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So there are a lot of moving parts in this book, a lot of themes, a lot of couplings a lot of characters to keep apart so we'll just get into some of the relationships let's analyze Alex and Devin so Devin is one of our main protagonists she is married to Billy who is a super villain like a horrible thief rapist abuser worst person ever and she winds up having an affair with Alex after the swingers party because she got set up with she put herself with him they got together Alex is a degenerate gambler uh loser uh husband who had lost his job many months before and is just pretending to work while he like steals money from his wife and kids and gambles and hires hookers and does drugs um and these two have an affair now Devin like is obviously looking for love that she doesn't have in her marriage and Alex is looking to steal her money so to what extent was Alex's love for Devin genuine or purely part of his scheme. I think he admitted that it was part of his scheme. Like I think he was pretty confrontational with the fact that he was like, yeah, like she's okay, but like I need to do this for like the long game. I think that there was minor infatuation at the beginning. I think like they were having fun with each other and there was attraction and like I think they enjoyed it. But like I feel like for both of them, it was just like a means to an end. I just don't understand for her how she could be in love with such a loser because she really did love him. I think by the end she realized that he was a bad person when he moves on Anna. That was when she really turned on him because even when he was selling her jewelry, her family heirlooms, she just kept buying it back and never mentioning it because she loved him. That to me doesn't make sense. This person couldn't be a bigger loser, thief, good for nothing. I appreciated the Alex the Great nickname just because I was having so much trouble sometimes keeping track of the characters and who they were so like that grounded me i really didn't understand his plan in the beginning when he's like yeah i'll fuck devin and then maybe her husband will give me a job or i'll hook up with devin and then she'll run away with me even though she is the most like airtight complex prenup in the world the whole thing just felt like what is your plan but i agree jacks i do not get how like devin and any capacity could fall for him and i was hoping the whole time it was part of some big grander scheme and then it like kind of wasn't until the end yeah we never got we they never like told us what his plans were I imagine maybe at the beginning it was to get a job from Billy by going to the party but then once he like fell into bed with Devin literally it was like okay I'll have her divorce her very wealthy husband even though they have an airtight prenup like she will have some sort of money and then they could get married and that would be his money but the problem is there's no amount of money in the world for him like he even got an extra 150 grand at the end of the book because he wound up selling something that he wasn't planning on selling and he blew it in one weekend like you don't deserve any money that was so that was so infuriating because i'm also like infuriating that that was like actually possible but also i didn't really think that and maybe i read it completely wrong like i didn't really think like devin loved alex i think she saw him as like a means to an end to like get like her plan done because by the way i knew from the start that anna and devin killed Alex I thought it was Anna who did it and like Devin was like doing logistics I didn't think that Devin was the one who like physically would murder but the second that they sent him away sent Anna away like the day after and I was like no one's gonna think anything of it because it's the housekeeper but like for sure I thought it was her too because they didn't like include her in the laundry list of where everybody was in their GPS and they just said literally didn't know it was them the funny thing is i remember i remember reading like devin and al uh anna like woke up and grabbed their phones from where they put them the night before so like they made mention like that's where their phones were oh but for some reason for some reason i like didn't i was like still waiting to see who done it and when it was so obvious i agree i think devin like pursued alex as a way to like shake things she needed to change something drastically in her marriage and i think her having an affair might have sent Billy off the handle and done something she was waiting for him to like do something physical to give her grounds to leave so I think she was using him to just set off a chain of events she didn't know where it was going to end but when she saw this opportunity and realized how bad of a guy she was I think she was using him initially to get Billy to do something bad and then when that didn't happen and she saw she could like take out revenge on Alex and Billy it's like okay that's the plan now yeah I I completely agree next question do you see Anna and Devin as a victim seeking justice or as morally compromised individuals victim seeking justice I honestly was kind of glad when Alex oh wait by the way I was so riding for them I wanted I wanted whatever their plan was to work like I no part of me was like oh they shouldn't be doing this i kind of think they're both like they're victims but they would not call them like beacons of morality by any means in their own personal lives yeah but i think that's the price to pay for justice on their end i also think like over the years like devin witnessed probably a lot of um injustices on billy's part even billy sending deporting anna's husband and her daughter and like not doing anything to help her not letting devon do anything to help her and devon didn't do anything to help her like i think like by association she became like a morally compromised individual and so you do what you got to do but of course i'm team them they were most definitely victims they're like sisters in abuse he's like raping and physically abusing both of them and this was the only way to end it i love their girls nights it sounded so fun of them just like in this huge mansion outside by the pool smoking and eating and drinking like yeah yeah honestly it sounds so fun next who was your favorite or least favorite character and why did you find any of them relatable despite their flaws okay i liked a lot of the characters there were obviously like the two awful ones but so many characters were so likable like i love teddy oh my god jackie was about to say I want him to be my husband like I love it Grace and Teddy were the best for a second I thought Teddy might have killed Alex because we weren't like hearing about his whereabouts and he was leaving all those notes I'm like is this meant to be sinister you know like that is his mistress's husband like jam he was such a gem and I really loved him I really like Devin the more we got to know her like the way everyone described her as like so kind and so generous and how she would just I mean obviously she was trying to like make up to Anna like for everything that went negatively for her but just like giving her credit cards and like do this do that like take all like she was just like very generous and very kind and I feel like when we met her at the beginning of the book like she could have just been like a wealthy entitled bitch it did feel like she had substance to her I think Devin was my favorite character I always like liked my time with her sections and I felt like she was layered and like a kind soul underneath all of like her waspiness which can be hard to find at times what's funny and I feel like I never go down this path but like I now in thinking about Devin and how she's kind of like hard to read and maybe at first she was like not what I thought she was going to be like I do feel like that's a product of the fact that like she was written by a man I'm gonna say it wow Jackie do you know what I mean like she kind of seemed like two-dimensional and there were a lot of different versions of her but they were all sort of two-dimensional even though like i liked her and i enjoyed the book yeah yeah that's an interesting it's giving like male gaze yeah on the reverse obviously i didn't like him he was a terrible person but i was very entertained by billy's parts like i looked forward to hearing his perspective and seeing how batshit crazy he was with his like psychotic work ethics and coming home and like shitting on anna and devin and how they were always like speaking spanish and cahoots against him like I liked his character in the sense of just a literary entertainment yeah yeah Charlie for me like not my favorite like but you know he was a good guy but I made me giggle yeah I don't want to read about him like smoking pot and just like all that stuff all that it was just not my favorite but like he's a good cute dude so that's fine but also by the way I think he was supposed to be a favorite but I didn't feel okay also justice for Katie oh my god Katie broke my heart and like she didn't really get all the justice she got no justice yeah to like solve the case in five seconds after he was like mulling over it for months and i almost wish she was like the biggest victim of them all right i mean i thought they were so many victims but she really got screwed over yeah i almost wish devin and anna had like brought her into it and even if in the end it was like they couldn't solve the case so she like tips off katie and is you know I actually want to take back what I said about Devin and Anna because the fact that they knew they had on tape right what Billy did to Katie the first night because do they have it do they have cameras in the bedrooms I don't know wait I thought they did they like explicitly said not in the bedroom but when Anna was like I don't watching everything she's like I watched Charlie go in and say hello yeah so when the door opens I didn't pick up on that okay yeah also Charlie didn't get nearly enough shit for like lying to her about telling Devin that she wasn't down and then just not having any like awareness of how much she changed after that night and associating the two events of like maybe something catastrophic happened. I completely agree. I thought that that was glazed over way too much. Like they were like in a relationship for years and then all of a sudden they just like dissolve overnight after this very like uh like horrific night you should tap into that you should like maybe explore a little bit deeper care yeah he wasn't punished enough for that and by her either like she let him off the hook and wasn't even that mad at him i agree but yeah there was a lot to like in terms of characters how does the novel explore the difference between appearance and reality particular in this particularly in the seemingly perfect town of new bethlehem i feel like they wanted it to be this theme of look how perfect everything is on the outside but inside there's trouble but I actually felt like the characters were pretty genuine in their infidelities like the whole point was nobody was hiding their discretions like they were out to dinner making out at the movies like everyone was very public about their affairs so I didn't think there was that like big of a difference between appearance and reality in that regard yeah I feel like when you think of the couples like Devin and Billy it's like yeah they're a nice looking couple they have a nice house a nice family but like you wouldn't there's no expectation that they were like the perfect happiest couple, especially when it was like known how he is in business. And like, I agree with you that it was pretty laid bare. And even when like they would go on dates with their Mr. Mistresses in other towns, like they weren't getting looks or anything. It's just like, yeah, everybody is sort of swapping. It was crazy. Crazy. Yeah. That's how it goes. I was about to say, do you think that this actually happens? Cause like I kind of do. I think the swinging happens for sure. but like the like literal swapping of spouses after one night of like anarchy is unbelievable and then in the book when it was like cataloging everyone who told someone who told someone who told someone about the secret swingers party i'm like oh this is also going to be a tension in the book like something big is going to come out of it and then nothing by the way i did think that was hilarious like any time like it was like oh she told her he told his wife who then told xyz like i thought that was hilarious agreed they went out a little too long yeah i mean i did skip it yeah i did skip it don't get me wrong like but like i did think it was funny and like no two people have the same name and neither of them it felt like he was like making fun of us as a reader he was like and then mary told flary who told him nary and then scary like they like would all rhyme i was like oh now you're just like kind of being a jerk yeah i didn't like at the end when she like got away with it and the writing was like ha ha ha ha ha ha yeah and then also like he would repeat like the last word of a sentence like often at the end of the chapter like she was at peace at peace at peace yeah yes oh and he kept repeating the same sentences i know it was intentional to drive a point home but i'm like i've read the same sentence for tonight yeah i'm saying i felt like the back half of the book he kind of went on like unhinged he gave up he just kept copying it pasting. I didn't like read too much into it because like every writer's allowed their style you know and I wouldn't have said it annoyed me while I was reading it but now in hindsight I'm like what was all of that? Yeah. Yeah. Next question. Is the murder of Alex justified by the abuse he inflicted or does it cross a line? I don't know like murder is probably the ultimate punishment you could ever give and I don't know if it's ever like warranted in a lot of cases but as a means to put Billy away. Like, I don't know. I actually think it would have been more just if Billy was murdered and Alex took the fall for it. Because what Alex deserves is prison. He's a criminal. Jackie, I agree. And he doesn't stop committing crimes. But I guess they had to deal with the prenup thing. But here's the thing, too, is, like, I would argue that jail is a worse punishment than death. So, like, Billy deserved the worst punishment, and that, I think, is jail. you know i don't know because death like you don't know you get nothing it's over i don't know and he was kind of claimed a hero at his funeral yeah he kind of got like the legacy he's always wanted and didn't want to taint yeah but like he wasn't as much of an outright animal savage as billy no i just the only reason why i'm like okay i'm sort of like relieved he is like no longer someone we have to deal with a thorn in our side if you will is because he screwed grace over so badly that like she was gonna have to deal with like the fallout and the implications of this divorce for like her the rest of her life and once he was gone she could like have a new life and not have to do you think that him dying made things simpler for her i actually feel like if they had divorced like his problems would have been his problems yes she would have like not had any money or anything but she wouldn't have to be like settling up his debts i don't know i feel like his problems would have become her problems and like exacerbated at scale like like when he was like texting her being like sorry i can't talk about our finances anymore like how hurtful that could be like i feel like he would have just continued torturing her no the more i think about it billy should have died and it would have been really easy to pin it on Alex because he was like a mess and he was already like drugged out and so to take his phone you know like great like Devin could have taken his phone done whatever she wanted who did you hate more Alex or Billy Billy he's a rapist yeah yeah yeah is that like is it up for debate yeah is there anyone who would say Alex like I don't think so yeah no like rape trumps like financial crimes but i really hated alex yeah alex was such a freaking loser like he was like scum of the earth lose and like he also just like had absolute loser just like just try a little in your life and don't think that everything's going to come handed to you and like honestly you'll be fine no i agree such a loser which is why it's confounding that like devin had actual feelings for him next what does the book say about wealth deceit and the secrets people keep damn there are a lot of secrets i just like read it and enjoyed it yeah no i was like it's not that deep like come on i would say that i was just saying that there it's there's so many secrets and like these like nutty wealthy communities that like i feel as though the it's like the only way to exist is having like 16 layers of secrets yeah more money more problems more secrets I didn't really like need to know more about this but I did notice like where are these kids like they're such a symbol and not a real thing in this book it's true they're never there it's true it's like yeah people will be like like they're worried about a million things to be like and how it will be for the children and it's like that I would imagine would be like the number one priority like I feel like in these books like obviously that people have children because they're like living in like neighborhoods with kids and schools and teachers like that's just what you need for the setting but it's like they're not about actual parents and even logistically i'm like how are you doing all these things like you just like haphazardly say you're gonna pick them up from school but like you're high like i was i don't understand how they fit into any of these narratives yeah they were more symbolic yeah yeah next were you satisfied with the novel's conclusion or did the ambiguous elements leave you wanting more no i felt good i actually was satisfied yeah I felt like it was it was tied up with a bow I agree good talk yeah good okay glad we're aligned um how did the author's writing style build suspense and emotional impact if at all I like the writing style I'll say something nice first because I felt like it was very casual and you didn't know when a big thing was about to happen and like if you are gonna have to go back and like wait what did I just read um and I thought that was a good way to build suspense because it's not like you're like waiting at every corner for like a big thing knowing something's about to happen but big things did happen that's a good point that just like never-ending run-on sentences you were kind of along the ride of just reading at like a fast pace and then it hit you out of nowhere because there was no change in tone yeah no change in tone like made for actual suspense yeah agreed I did really like the tone it was so fast paced that you were kind of just like along for this like kind of wild ride and so it was very consistent throughout which just like made it enjoyable throughout and I will say I really enjoyed the beginning and I thought they were great hooks when like we started with each couple and the stories of how they met and it was like very matter of fact and each story was just like more cute and more fun than the last and then we see how they all got to New Bethlehem. But I thought that was a great way to bring in a reader, especially like a swirly reader because it was just like a very swirly start. I agree. I kept mixing up Belle and Grace. I think their names were just too similar with the monosyllabic, but I'm like, which one is Belle and which one is Grace? No, but also Devin is similar. Like those are three of the same names. That's like those Instagram accounts are like, if you want to name your daughter Margo, but you can't, try Grace. like that where they give like the same name vibe yeah but i guess that is also the point yeah maybe are these women interchangeable interchangeable yeah i think that is the point it's like they're just new town rich people they're all the same that's a good point that is a good point go us we should start a book club next did james fray's past controversies example a little a million little pieces affect your enjoyment or perception of next to heaven so for those of you who don't know yeah I barely know this story but I remember it when it happened James Frey is an author he's been writing books like for over 20 years and he wrote a book in the early 2000s that was the biggest book in the country called a million little pieces it was Oprah's book club he was everywhere like as much as a book could be the most popular book like it was his I think it was a memoir and it was like he had a really crazy story and I actually I should have looked into this before I did this episode but this is how I remember it and after all of this fanfare it came out that he like made up a bunch of stuff in that book and that book is like not it's a work of fiction in some ways I don't know big or small but it was like a huge scandal no you nailed it I'm like looking up now it was about his severe drug I was about to say it was like a drug addiction right yeah and yeah it came out that it like wasn't totally factually accurate although it was classified as a memoir my takeaway from this dbq question is like that sounds like the darkest deepest complex book ever and this couldn't be more light so my perception was not impacted no and it's like he wrote oh yeah but i think the crime is that like he wrote a work of fiction that was billed as non-fiction but like so we all agree the fiction was good i'm happy to read another fiction book like i i don't care give me if what i'm reading is good that's like all i care about it's like what people say about freda mcfadden that she like he just forgot the genre part yeah i mean i guess like giving someone a platform when they have like kind of um like spoiled their use of the platform the first time around like i guess could be like seen as like we should give another author a platform when they haven't totally tarnished their reputation the first time around but i wouldn't say i was thinking about that while i was reading it but like is i don't think he's like the most upstanding citizen he like was a big fat liar yeah but it's not like anyone gave him a platform like anyone can write a book I bet Oprah is not picking his book again that's like really giving a platform only the redheads would do such a thing I was on our platform jocks I will say that knowing like he was the author like did make this book a little buzzier for me and I guess because like knowing he was like a very like prestigious author like if this book was written same book by an anonymous author that like we'd never heard of before like I might not like regard it as highly I know what you mean your like reputation precedes you yeah I'm like this is that like that author the big bad James Frey it almost feels like he's been so soured in society that he would need to make such a comeback with an incredible book and I really like this book but it's kind of like this this was your no I think he's written other books since like it's been 20 years got it so it's just like a weird slow decline from his major controversy of just like nice books how'd you find this book Jax my mom recommended it to me she like was reading it over the summer and she was like I think you would like this book it just like fun and I wanted to read it over the summer but I was like you know what I choose it for the redheads because I liked the cover and I thought it was so cute And then I wound up reading it six months later because we never did the redheads I do like the cover a lot Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought the description like looked juicy. So I was, I was all systems go. Next. Does an author's credibility matter when evaluating a fictional work like this? Not to me personally. No. I don't think so. credibility no your decision to maybe decide to read it i guess that's what it was saying like if you don't like him for what he did but not credibility this is why we can't go too deep on authors it ruins all the mystique totally totally but no i wouldn't say his credibility on fiction fiction is whatever you want it to be so if he were writing another memoir perhaps if you were writing like a non-fiction portrayal of world war ii i might want to fact check it but for this like go off king yeah agreed now it is time for the redhead questions first up this book provided a lot arguably too much background info on the central characters slash swingers do you think the individual deep dives into all of their backstories helped set the scene or was it just too much mud in the water no i think it was necessary like i think if the book just started with these couples like at face value like without having like their background or like context on what got them to where they were like I don't think we'd be like like I don't think we'd be rooting for Devin and Anna as hard as we were like I think you needed like the background in order to really like kind of champion some of the characters also I liked it like I enjoyed reading about the background I didn't even view it as just like a vehicle for setup I like wanted almost more of that story and when I got to actually know the characters more I wish I could reread their backgrounds because I'm like now I'm more interested in that because it sort of like all passed me by I didn't know who he was talking about or what they what it would all mean later on so like it would be more interesting to read it again and like now knowing them agreed I could not remember Belle's background I'm like she's rich and her dad was a crook and no she's from Dallas yeah Texas right yeah and she's just super wealthy I feel like that was it yeah no but like her grandpa forged a few property oh he had like an interesting story it's like how he made his money but like then he made his money right yeah hers was I don't know why I could not hang on to it as like it wasn't sticking with me yeah next I really enjoyed this book and felt that the plot had many strong points but I felt like the swingers party made this book a bit taboo do you think this book would have had the same impact if it was just a high-end house party and not a swingers event do you feel the author could have had as much success getting people to read the book if it did not contain such a scandalous topic well I didn't know it was about a swingers party when i picked it i just want to say so that's not what lured me but a high-end house party i think they need a little more of a hook what the hell is a high-end house party yeah what is it like we're just gonna invite people over what what is it project x yeah like that's not that's a great movie that's not a high-end house party probably the exact opposite of what we're trying to say it was like a mixer of couples like doing like a networking event no like with the intention like maybe people will hit it off but not so direct like you will be in a bedroom with x to hook up with someone that's not your spouse frankly i think the swinging aspect made it the hook that people want to read it more whenever i shared details with the book about people i was like it's not swingers they're like oh love what's the name of it it's like great next to heaven no no no i know yeah like when like i would be like i'm reading this book next to heaven they would be like oh what's it about i'd be like it's about swingers and then they started listening and then they're like like before like we parted ways they'd be like remind me the name of that book that's about swingers oh got it okay cool i'm crying um next question this is actually a good question i was reading the redhead comments and so many people hated this book or dnf'd it i loved it and i gave it five stars why do you think people did not like this book i have the exact same question because when i before i started reading the book i just like saw a couple of rogue comments of people being like oh no this book is bad and like that it was even controversial and from the minute i started this book i was like oh i'm sad like yeah no i feel like i completely agree i was so confused by the the hate like the dnf are you serious like it was so easy to read I really don't know maybe the writing style but it wasn't that wacky DNF makes no sense there's nothing more finishable than this book I could see if someone like wanted something a little more literary or less silly or like have some more substance but that is a shocking reaction to not finish or hate this book like I don't get that yeah well if you're a redhead who DNF this book or hated this book like please sound up in the comment somewhere and let us know what you didn't like about it now our final redheads question is hysterical it's from someone named olivia she said my one and only question jackie were you clutching your pearls i was not i was thinking of jackie like kind of were you yeah this is like the least smutty book in the world charlie actual the charlie part porn the charlie parts yes it was like crudely written and like not my favorite but like I guess I'm just so desensitized literally I'm so we've literally read such crazy porn here at the redheads that this was literally this was rated r not nc17 um the way that he like spoken stuff was not my favorite I'm not gonna be like embracing my inner Charlie Hartley but um I can just read it and like move on you know what I mean like not every character is gonna be my favorite character and again I'm very desensitized from things that we read here at the Redhead specifically like the dragon porn dragon porn we've read we've read Lucy's score yeah we read the OnlyFans book like this is child's play and I felt like it was all like you could write a book about like swingers party and it could be extremely raunchy but this was like all done very well tasteful tastefully beautiful word it was tastefully done next it is time for the moral of the story i mean it's really a classic like everything is not what it seems you never know what someone's going through uh stay one step ahead of your enemies yes more money more problems yeah yeah or like maybe like idleness is the devil's work yeah i like that because they were so bored these people yeah like if Alex got a fucking job maybe he wouldn't have been like and if he worked for a dollar he wouldn't just be blowing it on hookers and drugs and gambling yeah he was such trash and like the women were busy with the children and stuff so they didn't engage in devil's work I like all these morals I'm plus their imaginary children yeah okay next up it is time for the Hollywood treatment I have heard through the grapevine that Becky has done an amazing Hollywood treatment and um as someone who like didn't do it I just want to hear Rebecca did did anyone else do it because I did it you did it we because we have to catch I actually think mine's good too we have to cast like the main three couples Devin and Billy Alex and Grace Bell and Teddy so let's get into it Bex who did you have for Devin and Billy Devin and Billy is really the one I care about Devin Gwyneth Paltrow Billy Peter Dinklage I think I nailed it honestly you know who I was thinking of with Billy McAllister Billy McFarland yes I swear to God that in my head I was like she's about to say i have to cut her off so she knows i had it i know that was mine i had margot robbie and billy mcfarland billy mcfarland is a good one i had i was thinking of that guy okay you can you can have it because you actually did the homework like it just came to me in my brain i'm crying actually no you can't have it because broken country was my book oh right we're even oh god next alex and grace i had leonardo dicaprio like kind of um wolf of wall street era and also like the most recent movie he was in one battle after another where he's like kind of a frantic drug addict giving that energy and elizabeth olsen for grace who's like cutesy and wholesome okay i had tom brady and madeline pesch oh tom brady's good tom brady is good because he was like an athlete i like that i won't address madeline pech but um i think madeline pech would have been a better bell well i did it because she had red hair right oh yeah i guess she did have red hair yeah that's why i picked her oh i thought bell had red hair and then i did jamie ray newton for bell who was in hunting wives she was like the redhead oh yeah yeah yeah which like she gave me such bell like texas energy yeah this is very hunting wives yes and who'd you have for teddy i had ian harding who's ezra in pretty little liars oh that's just like a good actor a good working actor yeah like he's just like a wholesome young young man yeah i like that this is not texas but i had camilla caballo for bill and jason siegel for teddy jason siegel i like okay yeah that's cute so then jason siegel winds up with madeline petch in your book yes and tom brady and margot robbie okay tracks okay i like it well this should definitely be made into a book or a movie just want to say much like all of the redheads books that's like by the speaking of did anyone see housemaid no oh my god it was so good it was so good okay is it yeah i want to see it no it's in theaters oh we'll have to wait you'll have to wait yeah 100 um now it is time for the redheads ranking of this book i will go first because it was my choice and i'm giving this book a five because i operate in whole numbers and i loved it it was everything i needed to be so fun would recommend to a friend and i enjoyed myself i'm starting out the year five have you ever given out a five before i give out fives all the time oh yeah you get a five no like i'm very generous with my ratings and i do fives for I do fives for books that I love right she's so generous I don't know that you've ever given no you've given five everyone's ignoring you Margo generous um right yes you've definitely given fives or maybe I'm just like you can give what I do on good no no whatever it's a new year I was thinking what you give on goodreads but if you give fives jacks go I usually give on the redheads what I gave on goodreads and unless I'm like really wanting a half number I give a lot of three and a halves because a two is just so sad yeah you know yeah um so yeah I'm going five okay cool I'm gonna go four three amazing Dana I went for one wait now I'm feeling like do I get fives Rebecca I gave three I three five I was going lower and then our conversation made me like it more three I thought you loved this book I liked this book. I don't know if I loved this book. I definitely give fives because I feel like this is right. Jackie, you give fives. I'm 100% sure. I'm doubting myself. Our overall Redheads ranking for this book is a 4.225. Feels good. Which feels right. Feels right. And that makes it our number 10 book. Whoa. Maybe I don't give fives. That feels wrong. it puts it between lady tan circle of women and horse oh i love books so horse i enjoyed reading it but it hasn't aged i loved so well in my mind i agree i don't think fondly of it but i really liked it at the time yeah it was like two different books one like the history of lexington i love that book and then whatever like the end was i think those are both your choices jacks not horse horse is dana dana's horse dana is a horse um okay well now it is time for the other books we read this month i have nothing to contribute does anyone neither do i i do i read two books on vacation and um they were both by emily henry and i need to um bring up the titles because i can never recall them because they're all the same it's like um beach read i read and i read funny story but i could never remember if it was like funny people funny story funny funny everything people are funny um the things we lost and picked up and then people we lost was it a margot recommendation no i don't it was like really like i was having henry but i did read beach read years ago uh i liked funny people or funny story um more than beach read so if you're going to choose one that would be the one I choose they were totally fine and like digestible but they they follow the exact same format it's hilarious okay and Dana nothing you guys nothing to show for myself I'm hoping to turn it around in January but I say that every time so I'm gonna just have no pressure and let the winds go as they may I agree but I did enjoy the experience of reading and i hope to do it again soon i mean we will next month before next month in addition to next month's book which becky it is becky's choice next month what will we be reading next month you guys this is a hard choice because there's a lot of hot zeitgeisty books out there we will be reading wild dark shore by charlotte mcconaughey and i have heard amazing things about this book it has been on my list for so long and i've been holding out for redheads for whenever we got back together to do this podcast that we know and love. So I'm very excited and I hope you are too. Is it helpful for me to give a little overview or should I? Give like a little without spoiling taste of what people could expect if they want to read it because we need to like tease it. But I've heard really good things about this book. I've heard great things. So apparently there's like a climate catastrophe of some sort and there is like a family living on an island I think like off the coast of Antarctica. with a seed bank and so i think it's like threatening to have like whether or not like this population will survive etc and i think like someone washes ashore and what it what happens to this family these seeds humanity etc i liked the winter vibes of like antarctica oh i wish i didn't know any of that oh wow good no no like i i believe it's a really good like i have got it recommended from so many people so i know it's a good book but like i wish i just went in blind because it's like okay i um sorry pardon the interruption i just sorry i'm crying need to circle back and close the loop that kendall bennett our cold gate friend just texted me a screenshot of ritz facebook and said what happened stop i'm not okay i'm not okay oh my god you need to do something about it i don't know what to do dina can you guys if you're listening everyone report rebecca rittenberg's facebook as spam fake account the one in my art like my fur coat not the one in my wedding dress that's my real account now well post your Instagram to let everyone know that like you're alive and well nobody checks Facebook okay that's maybe a good idea I need I need genuine meta support you guys redheads come through this is a plea this is a plea okay well that's that on that redheads it's been a pleasure we will see you on the next one love ya bye love ya bye