Julia Gets Wise with Nancy Pelosi

Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your Out of This World support for our show, we've been brewing up something special, a Wiser Than Me Mirror Traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wiserthanmeshop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. It's hilarious to me how often a conversation with somebody in their 50s or 60s or even 70s will start with the words, well, when I was in high school, we never get over high school, do we? Seriously. I mean, as my own kids get older, I see constant proof for good or ill that these high school years are critical and formative. Our sons attended one school from kindergarten through high school graduation, a very progressive co-ed school in Santa Monica, California that was so liberal that my husband affectionately refers to it still as Sandinista Tech. My high school was so different, but just as foundational. My high school and elementary school was a private all-girls school. I went there for 10 years and then my God, my father, I do not know why. He wanted me to go to an all-girls college, which I definitely did not want to do. He absolutely insisted that we go tour Wellesley College. So we did and we ended up having this huge fight about the school while walking across the quad and all of a sudden a bee flies up my skirt and stings me on the ass. This is a true story, you guys. No kidding. And I started screaming in front of the whole tour group like a crazy person. The good news is I didn't have to go on the rest of the tour. So that was excellent. But anyway, back to my all-girls high school. My school has a roster of wildly successful female alums and maybe that's because at a school like mine, everyone who is the captain of a team or the star of a play or president of the class or the valedictorian or whatever is a woman. And when you look at lists of successful women, CEOs, members of Congress, musicians, journalists, the percentage that went to all-girls schools is kind of stunning. I mean everybody from Pink to Michigan, Senator Alyssa Slotkin to Ambassador Susan Rice and Melinda Gates to, I don't know, the Wicked Witch of the West, Margaret Hamilton. Yes, it's true. They all went to all-girls schools. So am I making a pitch for all-girls education? Well, no, not exactly. I'm making a pitch for putting women in charge. It's a pitch for an even playing field because I bet the powerful and successful women who did not go to all-girls schools were also at some point in positions where their leadership was allowed or maybe they powerfully insisted it be allowed to flourish. Success followed. Of course, not everyone is a leader, obviously. But when women lead, everyone benefits. Men included. It's good for everybody. At my all-girls high school, which was far from perfect, it had its own stupid rules and prejudices and very conservative ideology, my experience of seeing women lead without apology, myself included, by the way, instilled in me an expectation of female leadership, a normalization. That's the word. That was just how it was, and it was wonderful. And then out in the real world, my classmates and I just expected to be taken seriously. And when we weren't, we would put up a hell of a fight. I mean, if I've learned one thing from Wiser Than Me, it is that the women we have been so honored to talk to from every walk of life, they know how to put up one hell of a fight. They know how to lead. They have every one of them earned our deep, deep respect. So as I've said many times, listen to old women, motherfuckers, and we're just scratching the surface of each of these individuals' life story, the tons and tons of wisdom they can pass along to us. What a loss it has been for our country, our culture, to not hear from all of the women with brilliant ideas and tons of talent and genius, the women who have been kept from leadership, from flourishing by stupid rules by what is now almost laughingly called the patriarchy. Well, fellas, your loss. Because women in leadership roles, well, I mean, obviously, we're not 100% fabulous. I'll grant you that. I mean, you do get your occasional insanely crappy congresswoman, your idiot female pundit. We're not batting 1,000, but we're batting in the high 400s, and even Ted Williams never did that. Well, how perfect, then, that we talk today on the last show of this season to a fellow all girls high school graduate and one of the greatest female leaders of our time, maybe even the greatest female leader of our time. Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Hey, folks, before we begin, we wanted to let you know that this episode was recorded before Speaker Pelosi's recent accident in Luxembourg. We are keeping her in our thoughts and sending our love for a smooth and speedy recovery. It is an axiom, an undisputed truth that in the developing world, the fastest, most effective way to bring a village, a province, a nation out of poverty, to reduce disease, crime, and violence, is to empower women. But right here in our own rich, supposedly sophisticated nation, we're too stupid to apply that same axiom. We need more women in positions of power. And of course, I'm not saying men should stay away from politics. I mean, we've had 45 male presidents and almost two and a half of them were great presidents. And one of those wasn't even named Washington or Lincoln. I'll let you guess who that was. I'm just saying, if you want to get stuff done, hire women. Elect women. Case in point, Nancy Pelosi, the first and only female speaker of the House, and arguably, and I'm going to make the argument, the most effective speaker and leader in a century. Nancy Pelosi didn't run for public office until she was 47 years old. Can you believe what I am saying? Think of what she has done. Always a fierce advocate for the unseen and unheard, starting with the AIDS crisis in the 80s through the Affordable Care Act, which she, through her magical political jujitsu, somehow worked through Congress and now ensures millions of Americans. Her stupendous tenacity has led her to become the most powerful woman in the Western world. It is no surprise that Nancy Pelosi grew up in a family that lived and breathed politics. Her dad, Tommy Delessandro Jr., wasn't just a visionary Democratic congressman, he was also a great dancer and the mayor of Baltimore. Her mom, big Nancy, I love that name, was a whip smart strategist, inventor, and I'm guessing, possibly the brains behind her husband. When Nancy, she was little Nancy, the shy youngest of six children and of course, the only girl. When Nancy became a public servant, she showed us what tough, unwavering, principled persistence looks like. She leads with agility and ferocity and does it while taking zero crap. My God, the threats and real violence she has had to put up with throughout her career, the classless, insipid, dangerous way that the people who are taking power right now think they can talk about this great woman, I don't know how she perseveres, so let's find out. I can't wait to talk to someone who I have been so truly lucky to work with on so many issues important to me and to her and who is simply one of the smartest, wisest, most fascinating people will ever have the privilege of talking with on our show. My God, I am deeply honored to welcome a mother, a grandmother, a person of faith, the speaker of the House of Merita, the voice of the Democratic Party, a real dead head and a woman who is completely and utterly wiser than me, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi. Welcome Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi. Thank you, Julia. It is such a pleasure and honor and a privilege to be with you. I bring the greetings of so many of your friends that they didn't know I was coming here, but I always volunteer, isn't she the best? Oh, that's nice. Julia, and of course in my own family, but just starting where you began about the power of women to make a difference, people would always ask me as speaker because the speaker has awesome, awesome power. If you ruled the world, what one thing would you do? And I always say the same thing, the education of women and girls. Period. Period, the complete difference to us, the person, the family, the community, the society, the country. The country. And so our expression here, and I think it applies every place, is when women succeed, America succeeds. That's right. And the same to others as well. I want to just ask you some silly questions at the very top if I may. Please. Are you comfortable if I ask you your real age? Yeah. What is it? Well, when you're in politics, everybody knows your age, which is okay with me, but not always okay with my classmates. How old are you, Nancy? 84. 84. And how old do you feel? Oh, I feel, I don't have any sense of age. I feel... You don't. Now, I eat a lot of chocolate ice cream, very dark. Yes. I do things like that that just kept me going. That young girls do too. By the way, we have chocolate here for you because we heard you were a bit of a chocoholic. So... That's what it is. Yes. We have that in common, by the way. What do you think about being your age? Well, I call you Nancy. Is that all right? No, no. Let's do that. I prefer that. Okay. I love sounding my own name. You are viewers. Sure. Julia, the... I don't know, experience teaches you a lot of things. Your own... Not only experience in terms of getting a job done, but the experiences that you have had, the joy of your family, the sense of satisfaction of working with other people. And so, it is... I don't ever remember feeling older. Yeah, I know. I don't feel that way. I know what you mean. Well, of course, you're so vibrant. You're doing everything all the time. So I can understand you just have more experience under your belt, right? Yeah, and I don't have enough hours in the day. That's my own problem. A regret... It's not a regret, it's just a comment. I wish there were more hours in the day because there are more things I want to do. But it's time to go to sleep at some point. What about... Are you wearing heels right now? No, no, I just got off the plane, so I'm wearing boots. You're wearing boots with heels, though. Yeah. You know, it's funny, because when I was doing this show called Veep, in which I played the vice president and then the president, and I was always in heels like the heels that you often wear. I know some. Yeah. And we made a whole thing of me taking off my shoes once I got into the back into my office and being barefoot. Do you take your shoes off when you're working? Not so much. My God, these heels don't bother your back. No. Well, see, most of the shoes I have are suede. They're like bedroom slippers to me. They're very soft. Oh, that's nice. And I don't... I'm not my office long enough to take off my shoes. You know, touch base, do whatever it is, and out the door. And out the door. Again. What about food? I mean, I know you eat chocolate ice cream, but like when you're at work and you're... Do they have good food on Capitol Hill, like at the house there? Is there any good food? Well, that's a matter of opinion. Some people think they don't have any good food at all. Right. I myself have never been offended by a good hot dog. And they have hot dogs that are pretty good. They've been eating a lot of hot dogs. So they say, chocolate ice cream for breakfast, hot dog for lunch. This is not a good... You are blowing my mind. I have to tell you, I was once in the... I had the great pleasure of having lunch with then Vice President Biden in his office. And I was really nervous because I'd never been hanging out with a... like that with the vice president before. And even though you had served as vice president and president. That's right. When it came to the real thing, I was anxious. And we sat down to eat and he starts to order. And I didn't have any appetite because I was so nervous. And I said, well, I'll just have a salad. And he says, I'll have that salad. And he goes, oh, no, no, you should have the crab cakes. He goes, just bring the crab cakes to him. The next thing I know, I've got this huge plate of crab cakes and this massive salad. And I could barely eat a thing. I'm sure he's... Anyway, whatever. But I did have it by the crab cakes. They're pretty good. At least the White House crab cakes were good. No, that's a different story. Well, that's a different story. Well, that's a different story. That's a different story. New Maryland and crab cakes are part of our staples coming from Maryland. I know. Totally, totally. You graduated from the Institute of Notre Dame. It was an all girls Catholic high school in Baltimore, right? Yes. By the way, I went to an all girls school too in Bethesda, Maryland. And I have to say there was a huge benefit to going to an all girls school. Did you like going to an all girls school? I kind of loved it. Well, see, you're so much younger. For me, there was no other option. It was, I loved it, yes. But it wasn't even a consideration. And then when I was going to college, my parents were very much like, you will go to an all women's, all girls college Catholic, not too far from home. So I went to Trinity College in Washington, DC. 45 minutes from home. But it was wonderful. I wonder now looking back if I had real choice, but I loved it at the time. And what kind of girl were you in high school? Were you a leader in high school or were you? No, you weren't. No, I mean, I was a student and I... You mean you were a good student. You studied? I studied, but I was, I have always kind of been into music. I was Elvis all the way when I was in high school, Elvis Presley. And people, when I was at one of the conventions a few years ago, the reporter said to me, have you ever tried to influence the music that your children or grandchildren listen to? And I said, absolutely, positively not. For example, when I was a teenager, Elvis Presley came on the scene. He was king, right? He was king. Right. And you don't know this because they were young, but he was very different from the music that went before the swiveling hips and the, whoa, yeah, yeah. And I thought if my parents ever said, oh, I wouldn't even pay attention to them. It would be ridiculous. So no, I don't want to stand in the way of anybody's freedom of choice of the music. So you know, by the way, just a little bit of gossip, we had Rita Moreno on this podcast. She's wonderful. She's wonderful. And I know that she dated Elvis Presley and she said he was kind of boring. I've seen a long list of people that she has. Yes, she has a long list of guys that she's so absolutely wonderful. She is wonderful. But she, again, is talented when we're talking about music and that we dance, we dance around the clock and all this. You're a deadhead. Well, that came a lot later. I know. I mean, I have to say that was a shock for me to hear that. I think that's amazing. But one of the things that I love is that some years after saying to the 90s, I saw this purse and I said, yeah, I haven't seen that person a long time. So took it off the shelf and in it, say, maybe the beginning of the 2000s, there was a button that said, deadheads for Dukakis. Like 20 years later, deadheads for Dukakis. Oh, I hope you saved that. Yeah, I just don't know where it is right now. Oh, you got a fine day. That's really good. That's so retro and sort of. But when you think of it, it was a political statement. Of course it was. How do you blow off steam? I do crossway puzzles. I have been doing them forever and I find that my zone, you know, when I'm doing a puzzle and somebody comes up to me, I'm like, ah, oh, really scared me. It was in my zone. Right. So I do that. I do, I love any form of entertainment, live or movies or whatever it is. So, and my husband, Paul, he loves every form of music. And then he, given week, will be with the Grateful Dead, Cindy Lauper or the Symphony, the opera or the ballet, you know, or the movies or the movies. So I think the arts, the reason I say that, I think the arts are going to be our salvation. You know that because you're a master of this. But this is one place where people come together. Whatever their difference is, they enjoy a painting of a symphony, a movie, a play, whatever it is, and they forget their differences. Even for a short period of time, they realize they have some common ground. They've laughed together. They've cried together. They have been inspired together. And that's a start. Yeah, it is a start. And it is really one source of hope to me, are the arts. Yeah. Yes. President Lincoln, such an inspiration. Notice I mentioned a Republican president for a second. Yes, I do. Good for you, reaching across the aisle. He said, public sentiment is everything. With it, you can accomplish almost anything without it, practically nothing. You mentioned the Affordable Care Act, it was such a triumph. And that was inside maneuvering, yes. But the outside mobilization, having all the people who wanted that to happen to be mobilizing. In elections, the door to door and the technology reaching out to people, it's all about the outside. So any legislation, any political goal that I set out for is always about the outside mobilization, the VIPs, the volunteers in politics, the very important people are those people out there. Whether they're individuals who want to help or whether they're part of a group, a diagnosis group, but this or that, they make it happen. And so that's kind of where I think first, how will the people embrace what we're trying to do and how do we use all of our energy to engage them in this. So you hit an obstacle, like, well, the Affordable Care Act, that was hard one, was it not? And you launched a campaign across the country to get the word out about the Affordable Care Act, right? To have people tell their personal stories. Were there other examples of that kind of leadership that you did, Nancy, before the Affordable Care Act to get legislation done? Well, I always say that, and this wasn't my initiation, but something that I worked with is the fight against HIV and AIDS. When I first came to Congress, it was the first words that I uttered on Congress. I know. Here to fight against HIV and AIDS. And I pay tribute to those fighting, largely LGBTQ community, but others who were involved in that. And I thank them for their patriotism because it was a harder fight. It was a tough fight to do the Affordable Care Act. But in this case, we had to fight discrimination in addition to fighting for resources and the rest. Yes, of course. And you're never always teaching. You're always learning. And we learned a lot from the anti-HIV AIDS community about that outside mobilization. And I think what they did at that time to help us with the funding for care, prevention, and research, plus trying to end discrimination, were lesson to others and other diagnoses and all the rest, breast cancer and the rest. We all learned about that from them. And they learned from us about how it would work for us to be successful and we were. But when the Affordable Care Act, for example, though, we were on our path, it was a challenging thing because there were those who were anti-government. They don't want any government role. There were those who just were the special interests, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies and the rest of that. So when we sadly lost Ted Kennedy when he passed away, the press said to me at the next press conference, well, it's over for you because the Republican has been elected in his place. You no longer have 60 votes. So when they said, so that's the end, right? Yes, you know, we realize that having access to affordable quality healthcare is a challenge of a generation. For 100 years, presidents have tried to do the starting with another Republican president, Teddy Roosevelt. Yeah, he tried. Like over the years and they didn't. Now we have that opportunity under the leadership of President Obama and Democratic Congress. We're going to succeed and we will not let anything stand in our way. If there's an obstacle there, we will push open the gate. If that doesn't work, we'll climb the fence. If that doesn't work, we'll pull vault in. If that doesn't work, we will helicopter in, but we're not letting anything stand in the way. There's much more with Nancy Pelosi in just a moment. Stay right where you are. Hey Prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me Ad Free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. If you're like the wise women on this podcast, you are really, really busy. That's why MyDia makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life. Like the one-touch auto-fill French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly so you don't have to sit there and supervise water. Every MyDia appliance is made for people who already do a lot and especially for those who notice when things aren't working and quietly fix them anyway. You've learned to handle it all, but sometimes even the best multitasking can't cover for things that don't work. 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Seriously, you'll flip for hair that feels like new. Stop K18 mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first order at k18hair.com with Code Wiser. That's k18hair.com and use the code WISER. After the 2016 election, you described Hillary's loss as actually physical, like a mule kicking you in the back, which by the way I think is very apt. I felt the same way. Many of us now are still feeling maybe even a bigger sting, a bigger kick. Can you give us some advice, Nancy, about how we move through our feelings of not just disappointment, maybe even despair? I know you talk about, you say, don't agonize, organize, which I love, love, love. Are you taking your own advice right now? Well, it's very hard. I have to say every morning when I awaken, I think, did that really happen? Yeah. Oh, it did. But I see everything, Julia, as an opportunity. Right. It's an opportunity. Now, there are better opportunities, I'll grant you. But nonetheless, it's all an opportunity. And just as an example from 2016, right within 36 hours of that election, we formed our initiative to save the Affordable Care Act. This new president-elect has said, Obamacare sucks, forgive my language, I'm just quoting it. No, I know you're quoting, but also you can say whatever you want to me. We, again, within 36 hours of this election, this November, initiated our Health Care to Save the Affordable Care Act. It's a health issue, of course. It's a financial health issue, too, for people at their kitchen table to know they're going to be able to afford health care, their prescription drugs, insurance, and the rest of that. We will be launching much of it, as we did in 2017, now in 25. So we will do that again. And it is even more so because Affordable Care Act is even more popular now than it was then. By the way, congratulations. You won your seat again. No surprise, but that's so fabulous. And in an interview, you said, I'm confident in my ability to lead because I know my strengths. So my question is, what are your strengths? What do you see your strengths as being? Well, first of all, despite being attacked by them here, there, and from the right, from the left, and every other place, I had over a quarter of a million votes. And that was a big deal. Yes. The most have been in California, but I don't know, and the rest of the country haven't looked. But the, when I say to people to know their strengths, to know their power, the power of you, Julia. Right. Know your power. Know your power. That's the thing. And the power of what you bring to the table. But if you're going to be in this arena, you have to know your why, because this is not for the faint of heart. If you want to be running for office or striving for some position in whatever field you're in, if it's a competition for power in any way, you will be a target. Have you always known your power? See, I never really thought about running for office. Never, never thought about it. I mean, I'm a shy person, really. I know. Yeah, you don't give off shy right now. I just thought I was before. I loved public service. I was taught that when we were children. We were all taught public service is a noble calling. Politics is a piece of that. Yeah. And so I was chair of the California Democratic Party, which I thought was the biggest honor I could ever have, the biggest state party. Because it was. It was so huge. What a cool, huge. And then the woman was here. I was. Yeah. And I go to these meetings. I'm the chair of the biggest party in the country. Yeah. But, and, but I was behind the scenes, promoting the agenda at the candidates, the campaigns of the Democrats, especially the candidates. But I never thought of myself as being center stage. So that, when you ask that question, it wasn't that I know my power. I knew my why. I knew why I was doing what that was. And I always say to people, know your why. If you know your why, you can take all the slings and arrows they want to send your way because you know why you're doing this. Right. My why is a one entire children in America who lives in poverty and goes to sleep hungry at night. That's what took me from housewife, house member to house speaker, knowing that. So when people want to be involved, I'll say, know your power, know your strengths. And they are manifold. Even if you're not thinking that they are, understand that they are. Know the power of you, the only person in the history of the world like you. So know be you, the authenticity of you is what is a strength. You may admire other people want to be like or be mentored by us all good, but be you. Okay. Know your power, be you. And then when the opportunity presents itself and you never know when, you'll be ready. You do say in your book, lead by instinct that you have to trust your judgment, have the confidence to act when the moment demands. So here I have a question about that. I'm the question about the use of strategy versus intuition instinct. Right. A couple of moments. For example, when the former president, the president-elect, when he made that speech, that state of the union, and you tore up the speech, were you, had you read the speech before and did you think I'm going to tear it up or that was an instinct that you had the intuition to do it in that moment? Well, let me clarify what we're saying here. First of all, in answer to that question. Yes. What happened was he came in, it was very disrespectful of the Congress and he talked politics all, this is about policy, it's about governance. So on the first page, I thought he's not telling the truth there. So I make a notch wherever he wasn't a tear. The next page, the next page, the next page, the next page. So I would make a tear every place that I thought he was not telling the truth. And so I realized as we were getting into the speech, it was every page. It was every page. It was horrible. It was a manifesto of misrepresentations in my view. So at the end, I thought, I have to tear this up now. I thought my staff never, we've never discussed it under any circumstance. This is a completely different thing. Right. So I thought they're really going to be concerned because I haven't discussed this with anybody like that. Right. I don't want to talk about it until he gave this horrible speech. But I have received, of all the things in terms of passing affordable care, all kinds of proud legislation that we have passed to make a difference in people's lives. More people talk about tearing up the speech or pointing to them in the room or walking out of the White House. More people, I said, you took the words right out of my mouth when you tore up that speech. I mean, all over the world. Yeah, I know. I have all the world people be like this. Really? What was an iconic moment? And your gesture, it was like, talk about blowing off steam. It was a huge relief to see you do that. It was like, oh, there's a sane person reacting sanely to insanity. But it was such a sad speech. He did not respect. Now, getting back to your point though about instinct and all of that, what I do talk about in my book, and I want women to take real pride in for themselves, is that women have an intuition. We used to call it women's intuition way back when in the day. But there's an intuition if you're... By the way, there's no male intuition. You'll notice that. That's not a phrase. It never was. Never was. Never was. Never will be. So when you're a member of Congress, you're acting in a deductive way. You have hearings. You have public comment. So when you're there to go vote, it's not like you have to vote in a minute. You've had time to absorb and learning exchange ideas and this or that, or just be further reinforced in your point of view in terms of your vision and your values. But when you're an executive, for example, a speaker is an executive, right? Some things happen that are not about a vote on the floor. They're just something that happens that requires action right away. If you're the president, the governor, the speaker, the mayor, you have to act right away. So you have to be prepared. You have to have knowledge. So when something happens, your intuition and say, trust your gut. Don't trust your gut unless your gut has knowledge, has strategy, has values, knows what it wants to do. Be prepared. Be prepared and act intuitively, not deductively, intuitively. And the reason that's important is because, Julia, if you were going to make a decision, you thought, well, maybe this, maybe that, all the other people will exercise there, how to promote their own agenda. And pretty soon, your idea is greatly diminished. If they know you're going to act, they'll respect that. And nine times out of 10, because you know the subject, you know the strategy, you know the path, nine times out of 10, you'll be fine. And that's a good average. That's a really good average. Yeah. Nine out of 10, it's still an A. But you make it happen. Yeah. You make your decision happen. Yeah. It's time to take another break. We'll be right back with more wisdom from Nancy Pelosi. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared, only what's useful and well-made kept in rotation. Quints can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces, nothing wasteful. If it's not versatile, thoughtfully constructed, and built to last, it doesn't deserve the hanger. That's where Quints stands out. Elevated fabrics, clean cuts, and pricing that makes choosing quality over quantity feel both sustainable and smart. 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Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to qince.com slash wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com slash wiser. I know you've said you characterise yourself as being shy when you were younger. Do you recall a moment when you first entered public service? Do you remember a time where you got pushed back and you had to really steal yourself and go? No. No. No, I was ready. Really? I was ready. That's why I say be ready. Just be ready. Having children obviously prepared you for all of this, correct? Yes. Right. But see that's why I say to women, know your power. Know your why. Be ready. Be ready because you can't miss that opportunity. Now if I go someplace and I don't have to speak, I'm as happy as I can be. I mean I just relax. I went to a funeral service the other day and I was enjoying the say what people were saying and I thought, oh this is so lovely. And then they introduced me and I'm like, hey, nobody told me. But of course I couldn't. I had to get up and do it. That's the volume that you can actually relax and you were at a funeral. My God. No. And then they introduced me and I thought, who's he introducing? That sounds like me. Oh my God it is. Did you have to speak or could you just wave? No, I had to then get to speak. Oh no. But I knew the subject very well. It didn't bother me at all. But just be ready. It is funny because you are in the attraction business. You're in the entertainment business, the attraction business. We in politics like to think that we are in the attraction business. But we really aren't. But actually you kind of are. I mean we would like to think that we are but we're not professionals on the attraction side of it. Well I would say, see this is why I liked so much playing Selena Meyer on Deep because and why I think I could tap into it because there are parallels. You have to stay relevant. You have to keep getting elected. You have to as an actor keep getting jobs and you need to be electable and the parallels are kind of run deep. You're a brand. There's a brand of you that you're selling, right? Exactly. And you experience that in that role as to what it took as that person, as the Deep and the President to do that. And you were experienced because that's what you do. You said that if your mother, Big Nancy, which is the greatest name ever, you said if she lived in my generation or my daughter's generations, my goodness, Lord knows what she would have been able to accomplish. Because she was an inventor. She held a number of patents, which is extraordinary. One for esteemed facial machine. Can you talk about her and her influence in your life? I would say about her, as I would say of any of the women of her generation, that they were early. In other words, if they were now, for example, my children or grandchildren's, they could take over the world. What does she do for your dad? Well, she was doing behind the scenes. Volunteers in politics, a mobilization piece. And it was interesting to me because they were, well, we lived in the Italian section of Baltimore, and it was very democratic and the rest. As time went by, though, when you see along comes George McGovern, and I loved telling him this story, along comes George McGovern, who's, well, they were progressive, but he was much more so. I loved George McGovern. It was wonderful. And I said, you know, I've never been proud of my parents in politics is when they just went all out for George McGovern. I remember what a good man he was. I remember when I was back in the 80s, I was on Saturday Night Live for a couple years. And he hosted when I was there. Yeah, he did. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. You know, one of my regrets is I will never host at Saturday Night Live. I'm really funny. Well, Nancy, let's go. No, it's not too late. It's too late. I wouldn't even think of it. I'm going to convince her. You would be fantastic. No, no, no. I'm going to work on your audition with you, okay? No, no, no. Yes, I am. You said be prepared. I have crossed the bridge. No, you have not crossed the bridge. I'm going to help you with this. Speaking of your mom, this is something I found incredibly touching, that when you were first in Congress and you would get letters from your mother whenever a woman was appointed, can you please tell us what those letters were? That is mind-blowing to me. Will you tell? When Bill Clinton became president, I was in Congress since 87. He went in in 93. And every time he made an appointment of a woman, she would clip it from the paper and send it and said, please tell her how happy it made me. Please tell her because she really knew her own life, really, but not in a resentful way, but just in a acknowledging way that women were so underutilized in our society and our government in every way and that the president would be making these appointments such a source of joy. And I remember telling some of those women, you made my mother so happy. You didn't know her. She didn't know you. And she would say, tell them I'm praying for them. Yeah, always praying. Oh my God, that's a big part of our existence. So yeah, but it is, here's the thing. Yeah. Again, we don't agonize, we organize. Women, and I speak to women all the time and just say, I know this is hard. This is not for the faint of heart. You put yourself out there, you become a target. That's just the way it is. And understand how necessary it is for you to do that. As you said earlier, this isn't to take the place of men. It's to be there at the table with that diversity. Absolutely, yes. And I tell them the story of when I went to my first meeting at the White House as leader. And I wasn't nervous or anything because I'd been to the White House many times as an appropriator, as an intelligence leader, all that. And this was with under George Shabib Bush. George Shabib Bush. And so when I went, the door opened into the room. And as soon as I saw the room, I knew that this was the first meeting of its kind that I had ever been to. In fact, it was the first meeting of its kind that any woman had been to because it was the president, vice president, the leaders, House and Senate, Democrat and Republican. It wasn't like a cabinet meeting, which is wonderful, but everybody is appointed by the president there at the president's will. I was there at the will of the House Democrats, so two different branches of government. And so, and he recognized that. He said, you know, he started welcoming me and here's the first time we've ever had a woman at a meeting like this. And I know we're going to hear some new ideas. And as he's going on like that, I felt very crammed in my chair. I couldn't understand why it never happened before or since very crammed in my chair. And all of a sudden, I realized it was Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth, Katie Stanton, the Cretia Mott, Sir Jernet Trues, Alice Paul. Everybody was on that chair with me. They were right there. And I could hear them say, at last we have a seat at the table. And then they were gone. And my first response was, we want more. We want more women. We want more diversity and the rest. But the lesson, the reason I tell the story is I'm standing on their shoulders. And they started in the middle of the 19th century for women to have the right to vote. It took a long time. And it's been a long time. It says, I'm standing on their shoulders. All of us in Congress standing on their shoulders and others are standing on ours. When I first went to Congress, there were 23 women, 12 Democrats, 11 Republicans, out of 435 members of the House. What the hell? What is this? So we made a decision on our side that we would reach out, that we would recruit, we would fund, we would mentor, teach all the rest of that. Some people self-recruited. And that was beautiful. In this Congress, we had 96 Democratic women, 96. The Republicans got up to 30 something, I think. But we had three times that. We want more. And then, of course, we want to see women. Whatever it is, whether it's the military, whether it's security, whether it's corporate America, whether it's academia, whatever it is, entertainment, whatever it is, we want to see more women in leadership roles making those decisions. Think of it. This is in 2005. Right. More than 150 years since they started with the right, women having the right to vote. By the way, I'm wearing a suffragette necklace today. Yes, this is from the Suffragette movement. We owe them so much. We owe them so much. And we all have a responsibility to be suffragettes in our as we move forward. We have to get them forward. And we have to, at some point, have a woman president. Yeah, we do. And hopefully, it'll be in our lifetime, not mine. Oh, absolutely. It'll be in your lifetime. Nancy, just stick with the hot dogs and the chocolate ice cream. You're going to outlive us all. So look, I'd like to ask you about your marriage. Yeah. For the first, I guess, maybe 25 years, I guess it seemed pretty traditional, I think. And he had a very demanding, successful career. How did your marriage evolve as your political career demanded more of you? Well, first of all, poor Paul, I mean, wonderful Paul. This marriage was not something he bargained for. You know, Tim. So is this your way of giving him an out right now? No. No, it's just how we laugh about it. But see, before I always met, my thought was that I was going to law school and I was going to do this, that I got married, had five children, six years, seven days. And why five? Why didn't you go for more? No, I'm serious. Why did you cut off at five? Did you think you might have more or that was it then? No, I think five was it. I mean, there are all kinds of things that were going on at that very same time. And by the way, as I say to women, when you're taking inventory of your accomplishments, give yourself a gold star for being a mom because there's no multitasking endeavor like that. Nothing. Nothing like it. You're called upon to do everything all the time. Right. Yeah, in the first years, it was all about the kids. I didn't even have a chance to watch my face sometimes. When you have five little children crawling around, you don't even have time to watch your face. Yeah, right. But you're so hardworking, I guess, so intensely involved that once they're in school all day, you think you're going to save the world, right? Yeah. You've been taking care of five children all day. And we had our systems and all the rest of that about how we'd spend time at the park and this. And now they're in school all day. Oh my gosh. Is that when you became library commissioner? No, no. They were little when I came back. Oh, I see. But that wasn't as demanding time as being the chair of the party or something like that. Right, right, right. And, no, they were, I'll show you a picture one of these days of my getting sworn in. They're crawling on the table. They're crawling under the table. They were little kids. They don't want to. So the first years, them, they were in school all day and then I could take responsibility to do some other things. And well, here's what happened. I was somewhat active politically, you know, for friends who were running for office, this or that, not much, but a little bit. And Jerry Brown decided that he was going to run for president of the United States. Right. This is 1976. Jerry Brown said he's going to run for president of the United States. My very close friend in politics, Leo McCarthy, was the Speaker of the House at the time, chair of Jerry Brown's presidential campaign. I said to Leo, tell the governor that he wants to run for president. He cannot wait until the California primary, which is in June, very late in the process. Because by then, somebody will be the nominee for the party. They will then take control of the California Democratic Party because they will be able to choose who are the delegates to the convention, all of that. That's how it worked in those days. So there was a, this may be more than you ever want to know, but as I say to people, be ready. You never know. So in Maryland, they had something that the Secretary of State, the law said that if anybody is a candidate in any state, they would be on the Maryland ballot. So I said to Leo, Leo, tell the governor, stay on the ballot in Maryland. Stay on the ballot and we can win this. I mean, I was a housewife, but I said, you know, my brother had recently been mayor. My friend was the county executive there, Ted Venetoulos, my brother, Thomas Delcine. We had grassroots. You have to have the grassroots organized. We have the grassroots organization. He's the star. I mean, he was so fabulous. He was middle 30s. He was like 30. Oh my God. He was a Jesuit priest too, by the way. All that. And when he came to Maryland, he was spectacular. He was. He was drawing crowds. We were breaking down walls of hotels and everything to the street. The crowds were turning out for Jerry. And we won Maryland. And when we went back to California, people were like, what? How did that happen? And he said at this big welcoming event, Nancy Pelosi was the political director of my Maryland campaign. Which is true. Which was true. But he never usually would. Yes. But you were thinking outside the box. That's kind of, that's fabulous. And so one thing, then they were like, you have to be chair of the party here. You have to do this. Yeah. So one thing led to another. So when I became the whip, which was the race that made the difference, I just said, I'm going forward into the leadership. And people said, the men said, who said she could run? I was like, please light my fire. Why don't you? Yes. I said I could run. Okay. So in any case, Jerry came for my swear. It was a big deal. Woman was being sworn in as whip. The whip. The first time anything like that. He said, I made this happen. No, I made you happen. I did him. Oh, God. So anyway, you just never know in the course of events how some place, your talent, your experience, or whatever it is, just takes off. You've been in Washington so long, Nancy, and you've been on the front lines. You've witnessed so much in terms of the vitriol and the discourse between sides has become so toxic. It's the most toxic I've ever witnessed in my lifetime. Yeah. Let's see, chocolate. Absolutely have a piece. And do you think, before I ask you anymore, can I have one of these two? Okay. Is it good? Is it worth it? Delicious. It's delicious. Oh, this is too huge. They're big. Yeah, they're big. All right. Well, anyway, I'm going to ask you this question and then eat this. Do you think it's ever going to be possible to pull back from this toxicity? Do you, I mean, do you think it's possible to sort of put the toothpaste back in the tube in terms of public discourse in your heart of hearts? I will answer the way I say everything. Public sentiment is everything. The public has to be a public sentiment to prevail. People have to know. And they have to know where this vitriol is coming from. People say to me, oh, you're in a gridlock. I said, we're not a gridlock. We're an obstruction. This isn't mutual disagreement here. This is initiated by them. Yeah, I agree. For years, I had been the target, dressed like a devil, horns, cloven feet, what they did to Hillary Clinton in the 90s when she was first lady in the Clinton. They have used this because they are bankrupt of ideas and they have to take other people down. Right. And make no apology for saying this is not mutual. It is instigated by them and that's who they are and where they are. And when my husband was attacked, the Sanctuary of our home, it violated his personal safety to the point of we don't even know if he's going to survive. They laughed. They told jokes on their websites. Believe me, I heard it. The governor of Virginia, the Republican governor, Elon Musk, all of them, they thought that was really funny. Right. Really, how much more do people have to know? So we don't have shared values when it comes to understanding the responsibility. We want people who have trust in government. We want them to be involved in it. We don't want them to see all that mess and think, oh, I can't wait to be a part of that. We want them to see it as something where since the beginning of our country, we've had disagreements about the role of government, the role of the central government. And that is a legitimate debate of a democracy. It is not the basis for the politics of personal destruction. But make no mistake, this is a Republican agenda. I agree with that. And I don't know any Democrats who engage in that. I really don't know. Maybe somebody come in to call and tell me somebody wants that they heard, but I don't know any Democrats who engage in that. Yeah. And I think that most people are fundamentally good. So we have to count on that and believe in that and move forward with that in our hearts and minds, right? The goodness of the American people. I mean, you would source of hope for us. That's right. You wouldn't do it this way. The common grounds that we find in the arts gives us hope. People say, where is hope? I said, hope is sitting everywhere it always has been, right between faith and charity. Faith and the goodness of others gives people hope that we can find our common ground. I think I'm going to convert to Catholicism after this conversation. I don't know what I'm going to do on confession, but I may have to do it. All right, we have to wind things up because you have places to go. I have quick little questions to ask you. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21, Nancy? Oh. I'm glad we got the talk. No, you're why. It's always the same thing. No, you're what? Why are you doing what you're doing? Okay. Is there something you wish you'd spent less time on, Nancy? I'd have to spend some time thinking about that. Maybe I should have spent more time. People said to me, when I was chair of the party and I'd be dragging bags up the middle of the street to the post office to get in the mail and time for an election. Why don't you have somebody else do that and go home and comb your hair and fix up your face? Maybe spend more time on a little self-care. Or just a shower, perhaps. Yeah, exactly. We always just say self-promotion is a terrible thing, but somebody's got to do it. And last question, is there something that you would like me to know about aging? About aging? Yeah. It's something that has to be embraced. Hopefully, it is inevitable. And it can really be a joy. For me, it has been a joy. But aging is a long way off for you. Well bless your heart, but it ain't. Look forward to it with joy. And just remember that we have responsibilities to the future, no matter what our age is. And the experiences that we have add to that responsibility. But I would say to you, what I would say to somebody 21 years old, keep knowing your why. Be ready for whatever comes next. And know the power of you. And share that with others. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi. Thank you. I'm so happy to have you here. My pleasure. It's my pleasure. Again, let me just close by saying what fans we all are of yours. Oh, thank you. Not only because you're a talented actress and you have the power to move us, to make us laugh and the rest, but also your personal story is such an inspiration. And your being an inspiration gives people hope. Thank you. Thank you. And I remember when you came to the White House for the French president with your father. Yeah, I sure do. I sure do. I love you coming in there. He was so proud of you. Yeah. And you on his arm. I know it was crazy. That was amazing. That was amazing. I'm so happy. Seeing the two of you together, seeing you with your father and the pride he took in and the joy that you had being with him was such a source of joy to the rest of us. Well, thank you for saying that. My father came here. He was born in France, of course. And so for him to have the opportunity to meet the French president, to come to a state dinner like that was pretty mind blowing. It was really an exciting, that was an exciting evening for sure. Well, I know he must have, when born in France, been excited about seeing the French president. But to the rest of us, the joy we saw was him having you on his arm and coming in there proud of his daughter. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. All right. We done did it. There we go. You want more chocolate? No, darling. I'm good. I still have some in my hand. Well, wasn't that something else? Oh my goodness. Ladies and gentlemen, wow. Okay. So normally, of course, on this podcast, I call my mother after these conversations and I sort of bring her up to speed on the conversation that I've had with the wise woman I was talking to. In this case, my dear mom was listening because she was so excited to hear it live. So she heard the conversation. We're going to grab her on Zoom now to see what her thoughts are. Sit tight. Hi, mommy. Hello. Hello. Well, thank you for letting me sit in on that incredible, incredible interview. And what a moment in life for me. Yeah, that was pretty crazy, right? Oh, I mean, I'm just so grateful. I'm so grateful to Nancy Pelosi for being there for so long, for such a strong way, being so right about everything. It was a great pleasure to see her and just be with her. Yeah, I know. I felt the same. By the way, I don't know if you know this, but my sister Lauren came to watch it live too, as did my niece, your granddaughter, Fia, and she came along as well. And so she got to meet Nancy Pelosi, which was very important and exciting. I thought that was cool. Extremely. Because Nancy Pelosi is very connected to the women that came before her. Yes. She feels very completely viscerally connected to and those that are coming after because if you remember when she became the first woman head of the house, she had her grandchildren come. Well, not just her grandchildren. She brought all the children up. Well, yes. So there were lots of people who had brought their kids on the opening day of Congress and they had brought their children and grandchildren to the floor. And so she invited all the children up, which is so cool of her to have done. And they will always remember that moment. And you know, if you're there at one of these crowning moments, it changes your life. And that's right. You know, and our dear Fia and the girls that age and the younger girls all have all these opportunities now, thanks to people like Nancy Pelosi who actually broke into it. And boy, were they ever entitled to it. And also, by the way, you know what else is interesting? She has said many times that she's doing the work she does. She's doing it for the children. She uses that phrase a lot. And I thought that was particularly interesting because I don't know if you remember, but Patty Smith, when she was on the show, she said the same thing. She's when people ask her where she stands, she says she stands for the children. That's an interesting framework to think about a point of view, a political point of view, to apply that lens to help you come to a conclusion or an opinion. Right. It's a bridge. Yeah. Over time. If you envision that, then that makes your work terribly important, but not just for you. It makes it for the future. Right. Yeah. I just say, I lost my calendar. I was thinking of the future. I'm on myself. My calendar has disappeared. And I imagine- Why? Did you get a new phone? No. I got the same phone, just my calendar, the little thing that says 13 like today, that's disappeared. So I go into Syria and I say, Siri, find my calendar. So guess what she comes up with? I don't know. What? A pop, this thing that says my calendar, it's got little roses on all kinds of little flowers and fairies and things. And then the pregnancy calendar. A what? A pregnancy calendar. And you keep that. When was your last period? And all these- Did you put in 1981? No. I can't count backwards that well. So I decided to look for another calendar. But I thought that was a little bit of a watch over. So I mean, you can look up anything these days. You can find whatever you want to do. You can find something, a calendar to help you. Okay. But I think that the calendar thing is probably has to do with an update on the iPhone. And I can help you figure out the calendar. There's a search thing that you can push. I know. I search that. I search that. And what comes up is one day. So I can find out what's happening today. But then I don't get my app back. I can help you do that. Okay. Well, promise you will do that. I will. I promise. So by the way, this is, as you know, the end of season three. And I think what a perfect conversation to end on. Because we can all sort of leave this season thinking about what is our why and kind of pound down on understanding not only what our why is, but how it came to be and then apply it to our life and move forward positively. And I mean, it sounds like this is all of a sudden a self-help podcast. I really don't want it to be or mean it to be. But anyway, it's interesting, an interesting thing to consider. I've actually been thinking about what is my why. I'm not really sure what it is, but I'm thinking about it. Anyway, I just want to say that's the end of Wiser Than Me season three. And it was a great one to go out on. And bam, there you go. Right? Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry, mommy. Had you fallen asleep? No, no, no. I didn't know who you were talking to. I didn't know who I was talking to either. I'm talking to our listeners, but I'm also talking to you. And I'm just... Yeah, you're still on here. Yes. I have to say it has really been a great season because of what we've learned about the women and how you've listened to them and how important it's been for all of us to listen to all of it and get our own energy involved with it. Yeah, that's right. So it's true. If you've got older women in your life, take some time to listen to them. You might learn something. And mommy, I learned tons from you and I love you tons. And I love you so much and don't think I'm not learning anything from you. I learned plenty. I know you do. Yeah. And we've got more lessons to come. Oh, ooh. Ooh. Okay. I love you. Bye. Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonade a Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the Subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade a Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex McCohen and Oha Lopez, Brad Hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittle's Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Well thanks to Will Schlagel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Well believe it or not this is the final episode of season three and because it takes a lot of people to make a show like this I wanted to take a moment and quickly thank all of the many wise people who helped make this podcast possible. Our incredible marketing team includes Lizzie Breyer Bowman, Jackie Westfall, Sahar Baharlu, Rose Dennis, Amber Gerardi Robinson, Grace Cohen Chen and Emily Dentinger. Thanks to our friends in business development, Cece Dongbren, Val Bo Dertha, Mia LaCardi, Ron Russ and Dana Wickens. With additional support from Autumn Dornfeld, Christina Perdomo Fernandez, Rochelle Green, Brian Castillo and Noah Smith. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.