Tootsie with Nori Reed

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By a character who is a man, actually. Welcome to the Tootsie episode of the Bechdel cast. Bill, Bill, Bill. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test, simply as a jumping off point. But Jamie, what is the Bechdel test? Bechdel's test is a media match created by friend of the show, Alison Bechdel. Originally created as a bit, a fun joke for her excellent comic decks to watch out for. In the 80s, the version of the test we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender speak to each other about something other than a man. They must also have names, and the exchange should be meaningful in some way. This is 0.05% of what we talk about on the show. But still my favorite way to find out that someone has actually never listened to an episode. They're like, yeah, that's you. And then you just kind of what, you go through the script, right? No. And today, this is our 10th year as a podcast. And one of those episodes that you're like, you think it would have happened earlier, it just didn't. And I don't know if I've had this many notes in quite some time. Pages, pages and pages of notes, so much to say. Oh. So much to do. So let's get our guest, let's get our guest on the mix. We need her desperately today. Yes, she's a writer and comedian. It's Nori Reed. Hi, hello. I wanna start just by giving a really huge disclaimer that I chose Tootsie. I have never seen the film. I've heard of it in pop culture, referenced in shows. And I've never seen it. And Caitlin and Jamie did not reach out to me to do Tootsie. Okay, so save the hate mail. I appreciate that. Put the pens down. Put the pens down. Do not cancel this show. I did this, I did this. Are we recording on Transday of Visibility? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it is. Put the pens down. There was a part of you that I'm like, should I text Nori and be like, you don't have to do this to this? Yes. You can find another time. Any other tips? Yeah, they asked me to do Tootsie on Transday of Visibility. Yeah, it was kind of like, I mean, if you want me to, I guess. We sort of gave you no choice. Yeah, you said like. Or like, you have to do this. You're gonna call my agent. It'd be really cool if you did this. Yeah, you guys had guns. It was so weird. It was like weird. Yeah, we kind of tied you up a little bit. I liked that part was nice. Well, that part was hot. Light bodied. Yes. Yes. Which Tootsie, that pervert would have loved. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you had not seen this movie. So when you said that in the email, when you were like, Tootsie, I've never seen it. I was like. Oh my gosh. Well, let's just see what happens. Oh my God. First of all, like, who, like the fact that the whole movie, you have to suspend your disbelief that like people don't know that Tootsie's a man? Like what, like that's so funny. Like everyone's just like, yeah, that's a, that's a cis woman. Right. It's like, no, that's Dustin Hoffman. What are you talking about? That was wild. That was so wild. That, the, yeah. The world that this movie takes place in, you're like, what are the rules here? Like even on the idea of like, oh, it would be way easier for an older woman to get a job than a white guy in his 40s. You're like, what? Where am I? Well, he's so difficult to work with. And men who are difficult to work with famously, they can't find work. Just kidding. Yeah. The premise that there is a deeply empathetic, maternal figure inside of every frothingly angriest man is just such a strange premise. Yeah. If a man, if a man is short enough, he has to become a woman. And that is the message of the movie. I'm obsessed with like acting class culture. So like, I did love like the footage of them in acting class and like, you know, I love Barry. Like I have such a soft spot for like actors. So I really did love that part of it, you know? Sure, yeah. I mean, there are, this movie, I think it has its moments, but there's so few at far. So few. So few. So this was your first, yeah, give us the cliff notes. Yeah. Are you a fan? I, there were moments where I was disassociating. I'm gonna be honest with you. There are moments where I had to get on my phone and like go on Instagram because I was just so overwhelmed with like what was going on. He like also was like such a bad person. And like, I was just like, wow, like you were awful. And like that was rough. Like he was just such a bad, bad person to everyone in his life. Bad guy. Yeah. Like he was just sucked. Like the one part that made me laugh that I really, maybe I shouldn't have laughed, but it really got me is towards the very end when like, when the horrible like older actor on set, like the doctor, what's his name? Oh, Dr. Brewster. He goes, whenever it's finally revealed, this whole time that Tootsie's a man and then he gets the button and he says, does Jeremy know? That really made me laugh. Like I was like, that's funny. That's actually funny. Oh, cause he's talking about his roommate. Bill Murray's character. Yes. Okay, Jeff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeff, I'm so sorry. Yeah, he was like, does Jeff know? Like that really, I was like, that's funny. That's objectively funny. Yeah, that's a moment. That's a moment in a long movie. Yes. I'm like the fall character, like his love interest, like who is like the dummy. Like I just, I hated that. I hated that like she was being pushed around and like lied to and was like the dumb character. I just like hated that. I, yeah, the crime of, cause Teri, I think Teri Gar is giving a really good performance in a movie that just like doesn't deserve her at all. Yes. Yes. Yes. That scene where she's yelling at him. I was like, she's so good in like her big scene. And then she disappears. She falls off the cliff. A cliff. Yes. I have so many notes about her. There's too much. Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie? This, I feel like probably a lot of people have it. So my mom loved this movie, which I, I watched a, there was like a free version of this movie on YouTube. And I was going through the comments cause there was a ton of views on it. And I was seeing that a lot of like, oh, my mom loved this movie and we watched it together. So I remember my mom sitting me down and watching this movie with me and probably high school. I remember liking it at the time and I hadn't really come back to it since. So I came back leery being like, well, a lot has changed since I was in high school. I'm a completely different person. And this could just go so many ways. And I did not like the way that it went. I am not a fan of this movie, but it's one of those movies that people still, I mean, and people our age still will really go to bat for in a way that, I don't know, I was, I was combing through letterbox. I was like, what do people say about the movie Tootsie in the mid 2020s? And it is still, I think like kind of delusionally praising the elements of this movie that just like, maybe seemed intriguing in 1982, but I'm like, I don't think that there's really a case for it. I'm sure there's a nostalgia component. I'm sure, I mean, for the time in 1982, there were hardly any movies that were addressing gender as a concept and feminism and women trying to stand up for themselves and be empowering. And like, this just was not a thing that was happening in most movies of this era. So I imagine that's why like people of our mom's generation and especially women of our mom's generation really hold this movie close to their hearts, but revisiting it now. You're just like, mom, we need to circle back. Like what's going on in this movie? I like Dorothy. I hate Michael Dorsey. Michael Dorsey. I couldn't hate Michael Dorsey more if I tried. He's a piece of shit. And I just, I object with the, I'm like, Dorothy would have nothing to do with Michael Dorsey. And she is hot. I mean, like, the most unbelievable part of the movie is that Dorothy and Jessica Ling's character. Julie. Yeah, the fact that they didn't hook up is so, it's like they would have hooked up. If this was real life, like they would have had sex. Like Dorothy's so hot, she's like really, like she's got it. And like exactly what Julie's looking for too. Like Julie's inviting her over late at night. Literally. They're having so much wine together. Like come on. So much wine. She's like, you're so beautiful. Like come on, stop. The soft focus meeting her family. Yes. Her baby. She's in love. I, the character, I mean, I, I don't know. I don't like the movie. I think some of the characters are interesting, but they're just like where they end up is so, like Julie's ending is so depressing. I'm like, do not under any circumstances. It's like Michael Dorsey. No. Get away from him. Sandy Lester's disappeared from the movie. Anyways, I don't know. It's a, it's a weird one. I under, yeah. I think that this is a big nostalgia movie for people, but if it's been a while, give it another watch maybe and get back to us. Caitlin, what's your history with Tutti? I saw this during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005. And major. Huge. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. I thought it was corny as hell and low key bad. I did not like it at all. I thought. Good for you. And not for the same, not for the exact same reasons I don't like it today, but I think there is some overlap. I've never liked the Michael Dorsey character. I don't care about his problems or his journey. And like you were saying, Nori, I was having a hard time suspending my disbelief. Also, they just like promote Nori to show runner. Like out of no, they're like, well, she's gonna do it. She's gonna do. I was like, have you ever seen how people treat actors? They're like, shut up, meat puppet, get it right. Like it's so weird. And like, there was just so much about like, I don't think Dustin Hoffman was doing a good job because there are a lot of roles where cis men play women in a movie or a show. I'm thinking of Louis Anderson, especially in baskets. Well, that's because that's is true. Constantly forget that that's Louis Anderson. I mean, at a certain point you're like, okay, that is a trans woman. And we have to be honest about that. Yeah. So it can be done very well, not to the same degree, but I think John Travolta as the mom and hairspray. Like sometimes I'll be watching these characters and I'm like, I forget that that's- Summer High Tide, Jameve, like- Yes, oh my God. You're like, that is high school girl. Like you just- That's a girl. That's a teenage girl. Yes, for sure. And then there's Dustin Hoffman doing whatever the hell that is with Dorothy. That accent. His idea of what a woman acts and moves like, it just felt so cartoonish and goofy to me. Cause unlike you, Jamie, I do not like Dorothy. I think she's better than Michael Dorsey, but I find- Maybe it's by comparison. I- And I also like the character that Dorothy plays, Miss Kimberly, I find her grading. Like the whole performance, I just, I don't, I have never liked this movie. I never felt compelled to watch it again. And so revisiting it for this episode, like 20 years after the first time I saw it, I also was like kind of, I think I had like Mandela affected myself with this movie. I thought it had, I thought the themes of like, and he lives as a woman for a while. And that really teaches him a lesson about how sexist he used to be. Well, I think that that's what people thought the takeaway was at the time. I think that is a popular narrative around this movie. And then you watch it, you realize- And then you watch it and that barely happens. No, he invents, he, the movie would have it that like, he invents feminism and then ignores it. And then ignores it and learns nothing from it. Yeah. Yes, that is the trajectory of the story. So anyway, yeah, it was a very interesting rewatch. We have so many notes, so much to discuss. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Sure. Welcome to The Neighborhood, a new community where everyone keeps an eye out for each other. Obviously, my instant coffee's not good enough for you. I just want to make friends. 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I was like, I just, I didn't remember. Also in my memory, Gina Davis is the lead, not Jessica Lang. There's so much Mandela effect with this movie. Yeah, including it being good. Like, there's so many weird things about this one. But yeah, Bill Murray, we can't get around it. There he is. He's there. And he and Michael are trying to raise $8,000 to put on a play that Jeff wrote. Also a part of this production that they're trying to put on is their friend Sandy, played by Terry Gar, an actor who is prepping for an audition for a soap opera. And Michael coaches her, but she doesn't get the part. Then Michael finds out that he didn't get a part in a play that he was supposed to be up for. So he goes to his agent, George, played by the director of this movie, Sidney Pollock, to be like, what the heck, George? And George reveals that Michael has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, and no one will hire him. But you know who people do love to hire? Middle-aged women. They're the most working people in the world, as we all know. So off-screen, Michael decides to start presenting as a woman to try to get. So we cut to him in a dress, wig, makeup. He has decided to become Dorothy Michaels since no one will hire Michael Dorsey. But he's only going to do this for auditions. He's not going to live as a woman because he is still a cis man. He goes for an audition for the same role that Sandy got rejected from, a soap opera called Southwest General. Dorothy also gets turned down at first because she's seen as not the right type. She's too soft and delicate. So Dorothy gives an impassioned speech that shows that she can be tough. She invents feminism on the soap opera. And the director, Ron Carlisle, played by Dabney Coleman, is impressed by this and casts Dorothy in the role of Miss Kimberly, the hospital administrator. And so just to clarify, we've got Dustin Hoffman playing the character of Michael Dorsey who is playing the character of Dorothy Michaels who is playing the character of Miss Kimberly. So there's so many layers. It's like Shrek with onions, onions have layers. Very onion-like performance. So during the audition, Dorothy meets Julie Nichols, played by Jessica Lange. What an Oscar for being in this movie. Which, I guess. Sure. Weird wind to me. She's doing a good job. But I'm like, was it him? It's not like a standout performance or anything. No, I thought she was Gina Davis for half the movie. Yes. Okay, so Julie is a cast member who plays a nurse on this soap opera. And Dorothy slash Michael takes an instant liking to Julie. He's got a little crush. Then Michael, still dressed as Dorothy, approaches his agent George and reveals like, oh, it's me, Michael. And tells George that he auditioned as Dorothy and landed the role of Miss Kimberly. And George is horrified by all of this. He thinks that Michael's sick in the head. Then a short time later, Michael as himself is hanging out with Sandy. She doesn't know that he is pretending to be this Dorothy person, especially because Dorothy landed the role that Sandy was trying to get. And that would be a huge betrayal to their friendship. Something that Michael keeps secret the whole time. So yeah, now we're introducing the classic element of deceiving women for most of the movie. It's so bizarre, because the movie tries to rationalize it in this way many times. It almost seems like intentionally to keep Sandy excluded from being anything except a desperate love interest, basically. Where, yeah, like she is like Bill Murray's in on it the whole time. Bill Murray and the agent, they're making these nasty little comments to Michael that are, I think, intended to make Michael look like a better person by comparison, even though he fucking sucks. But Sandy, the whole premise of it is like, oh, well, she's too emotional to handle knowing that I did this thing and did it after she failed to get this job. But they're like, well, I would tell her, but she's just so old school. I would, but she's too hysterical to handle the plot of the movie Tootsie. I'm like, well, then what is she doing here? Right. Well, you called her a love interest, but she's a love interest that he's not interested in. No, she's interested in him. I mean, that happens to a lot of comic actors a lot. Terry Garter, undisputably, haughty, right? But she's presented as too emotionally fragile and less desirable than Jessica Lange, just by the story and by the fact that Michael is not interested in her and therefore feels comfortable treating her like shit because he's not attracted to her. So no need to treat her like a person. Certainly. Yeah. Although they do have sex because what happens next is she leaves to take a shower. They're about to go grab some food or something. Michael undresses to try on some of her clothes because he's been shopping for women's clothes to play this Dorothy character. And then Sandy walks in on Michael while he's almost naked and he plays it off as he wants her. He's attracted to her cut to. They've just had sex. And then she's like, you'll probably ignore me now. And he's like, no, I won't. And then he does. And then he does. And then he just does for basically the rest of the movie. Yeah. And then he'll show up and be like, hey, sorry, I'm late by seven hours. And she's like, oh, all good. I was like, Sandy, Sandy, God. Yeah. Yeah. That scene was disturbing. I did not like that scene. And it is not the most coercive, disgusting scene in the movie. They saved that for the very end. Yes. Oh my God. Okay. So Michael as Dorothy heads to the first day of shooting the soap opera. Dorothy finds out that her character on the show has to kiss a man. We'll talk more about this, but Dorothy is uncomfortable because Michael is uncomfortable with kissing a man. So Dorothy stands up for herself and she changes the scene, goes off script. And everyone's like, sure, okay, that works too. And this is the beginning of Dorothy. Have either of you ever performed in like, where you're like, hey, I would like to make an extreme change to the script. And everyone's just like, all right, we have no choice. Like it is just so bizarre. Yeah. I think that usually does not happen like that. I don't know. I don't know. Any soap opera heads in the crowd. Can you just be like, actually, no, I know that that's not true. But it is very weird that they present it as true. And the fact that no, if this, that this is true and no one else has ever taken advantage of it before, like no one else goes off book for the entire, unless, unless Julie does it at one point and I'm not remembering, but. I think only in response to Dorothy. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. No, usually that gets you fired. If you're just continuously going off book for the role that you, that lines are written for you and you're expected to say those lines as written. If you don't do that, you get fired. But, but people love Dorothy Michaels. People are going cuckoo for Dorothy Michaels, which I again, like I, it's, I guess like an interesting idea that like they're like, Oh, Dorothy's character, not even her, like Dorothy's character seems to really appeal to like working in single women and like appeal to middle-aged women, which is an interesting idea. Unfortunately, there are no middle-aged women in the movie to really engage with. Like you meet a producer at the beginning. There's like two women on set who fall into this age range. And I'm like, well, I wonder what she thinks about this, but they, you never really find out. And so it just becomes this weird detail that Dorothy Michaels appeals to middle-aged women. Cause the women we meet are like hot young women. So I don't know. Yeah. Right. Because Dorothy's episodes of Southwest General start airing on TV and people are becoming like huge fans of Dorothy. They're flocking to get her signature, her co-stars, Julie and April Page, who's the Gina Davis character, also really appreciate Dorothy's work on the show. Ron, the director, isn't so grateful because he's sexist and he's always being condescending to Dorothy and to Julie. Yeah. He's very much like the worst guy ever character. Again, like we see all the time to make the other shitty guys in the room seem nicer by comparison. Like he's just so awful that you're like, well, no one's going to see themselves in this guy. So maybe they'll think Michael Dorsey is awesome. Right. Is that the actor who plays the horrible sexist boss in nine to five? Oh. I think it is. Maybe. I haven't seen nine to five since we covered it a long time ago. Yeah. I recognized him. I was like, I think that, so he's basically playing the same character in both movies, if I'm thinking correctly. Wild. Okay. Yeah. But anyway, then Julie invites Dorothy over for dinner to run some lines as well, which is exciting to Michael because he's got a big crush on Julie, but he shows up as Dorothy. They bond and have a nice time. But oh no, Michael remembers he was supposed to have dinner with Sandy. This is the second time and there will be more after this that he has blown her off or forgotten that they had plans. Yeah. I can't tell how much of this. I know that like we're obviously we're meant to feel for Sandy, but sometimes her being stood up, I feel like it's like visually supposed to kind of be a joke because we see her like alone and drinking alone and she forgives him so quickly. I'm just like, I don't even know how I'm meant to be feeling right now. I feel bad, but like I think we're meant to pity her more than empathize with her. Sure. Yeah. That is a great way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we are sort of encouraged to view Sandy as kind of pathetic in a way that is like upsetting. Yeah. For sure. Terri Gar deserves better. Yeah. Okay. So Michael rushes over to Sandy's place. She's still upset that she didn't get that part on Southwest General. She thinks that Dorothy and her character, Miss Kimberly, suck. And this is partly because she doesn't strike Sandy as the tough character Miss Kimberly was supposed to be. So Dorothy starts changing the script even more and making up her own lines that are more quote unquote empowering to women and the fans are loving it even more. Dorothy gets a bunch of fan mail. She does all these photo shoots. She ends up on the cover of several magazines. Then Michael goes to a party where he sees Julie and even though he's there with Sandy, he goes up to Julie and tries to hit on her. But she throws a drink in his face. We'll talk more about the whatever the love story between them. But then Julie invites Dorothy to spend the weekend with her, her baby and her dad less played by Charles Durning who has taken a liking to Dorothy. Old Liss has a big old crush on Dorothy. Yeah. Him and his bad politics and his dead wife. And then this like weekend getaway with all of these people is I think one of the corniest sequences ever committed to film. What the hell is that song playing? I think it's an original song for this movie. I'd never heard it before. Yeah. I don't know. What the hell was that? It was no good. And the whole time Michael dressed as Dorothy because Julie doesn't know that Dorothy is actually Michael. But Dorothy is like looking at Julie longingly. They have to sleep in the same bed because even though this house is huge, there's only one bed in one bedroom for them to sleep in together. Meanwhile, Liss is pining after Dorothy. Yeah. This fucking guy. He goes on a tirade about gender. He's very pro traditional gender roles. Yeah. He starts it like many scary fathers slash grandfathers where he's like, so let me start by saying do whatever you want, but and then says something extremely regressive or hateful. So I'm like, okay, so don't so don't do whatever you want. Anyways, it's firmly 1983. It is the Reagan administration. Yeah. In this movie. It sure is. Then Dorothy finds out that her contract is being extended on this soap opera for another year, but Michael doesn't want to keep playing this Dorothy and by extension, Miss Kimberly character. So he's trying to get out of it. He wants to go play like lettuce off Broadway or whatever the fuck. I kind of I'm like, you can just tell and I think this is intentional. You can just tell based on the description of Bill Murray's play that it's fucking awful. Like sounds rank and he's such a pretentious piece of shit. Yeah. Then Julie asks Dorothy if she can babysit for Julie's baby while she goes and breaks up with Ron, the director, because Dorothy has empowered and inspired Julie to not put up with Ron's bullshit and his mistreatment. And then Julie returns home after this. She's sad that relationship is over. She's feeling lonely. And Dorothy tries to kiss Julie because Dorothy is actually Michael and Michael is in love with Julie, but Julie doesn't know any of that. And so she thinks Dorothy is a lesbian and she's like, Oh, no, thank you. Yucky. I don't want to be friends anymore. It feels I this. I'm sure this comparison has been made before, but it feels very similar in well, not similar in tone necessarily, but like it's like a Mulan thing going on here where I feel like it's they're towing this very specific line to like reinforce. Well, ultimately, all of these characters are straight. Yeah. Where it's like, Oh, there's an attraction between these people, but something isn't quite right. And so the movie can, you know, have it all always and we can still end with like a a cis straight couple at the end of the movie. Right. So then Julie's dad, Les is like, Hey, Dorothy, will you marry me? And Julie is all like, Oh my God, you're going to have to tell my dad that you're a lesbian and all this stuff. Yeah. All of a sudden so urgent for Dorothy to out her. I mean, at least Julie's mind for Dorothy to out herself to a guy she's met one time. Like you're like, that's no, there's no, what is so ridiculous. Yeah. He's, he's proposing after knowing Dorothy for like two seconds. Then there's a scene where John Van Horn, who is the actor who plays the doctor, Dr. Brewster in the soap opera. He has stalked Dorothy all the way home. He's trying to get into her apartment. He manipulates his way inside. Then assaults Dorothy. Oh yeah. He starts to rape her. Yes. Like it's yeah. And only doesn't when Jeff comes in and he handles this whole thing. Everyone handles this whole thing very either poorly or bizarrely. Yeah. He's kind of drop it after it, after it happens where he like Michael is just like, well, I'm having a wild night. All good to see what works. John leaves, but then Sandy shows up and Michael has to hurdly, you know, like shower off all of his Dorothy makeup. And Sandy's like, why aren't you returning my calls? And he's trying to play the whole thing off. He continues to lie to her. She calls him out for his dishonesty. We'll talk more about this scene and their whole relationship, but she ends up storming out. And so now Michael is at a loss for what to do. His friend Sandy has pissed at him. His love interest Julie doesn't want to be friends with him slash Dorothy anymore because she's homophobic. Michael doesn't want to be Dorothy anymore, but he's stuck in this contract on this soap opera. And on top of all of that, the editor of the show spilled celery juice. And now I learned that celery juice exists. And like it's been what was happening in the 80s. I don't know. But he spilled the editor spilled celery juice all over the footage. So they have to do a scene live on TV. So Dorothy takes that opportunity to remove her wig and makeup and drop the falsetto voice and reveal that the character, Miss Kimberly is actually a man, her brother Edward, giving this whole soap opera explanation for why. And everyone is like, Oh my God, Julie walks up to Michael and punches him. And now Michael is really, really sad. He pushes over a mime in a park. I forgot about that. And I watched this movie yesterday and he does push over a mime in a park. He pushes over a mime. He meets up with Les to give the engagement ring back. And Les is disgusted and humiliated because he's also homophobic, like father like daughter. But Michael is like, Well, I'm in love with your daughter Julie. And Les is like, All right. But just so you know, she never talks about you or anything. So then Michael, despite that, approaches Julie to try to like smooth things over. And she's still pissed at him. And he gives this like barely an apology. And crucially, she says I'm his Dorothy. And then yeah, which is intriguing, but that he's like, Well, I'm Dorothy, you're my girlfriend now. And she's like, maybe I am. And you're like, what a bleak ending. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it ends. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Get the Google Pixel 10 Pro XL on the UK's best network. Press to talk out live with Gemini, your AI assistant from Google, and find out how to revive that plant. Yep. We've all been there. Plus, you'll stay connected even when you run out of data. Get yours on EE Today. Results for illustrative purposes and may vary. Check responses for accuracy, eligibility, credit check and terms of client credit by EE Limited. Verify best network at EE.cadk.claims. And we're back. OK. I mean, where to begin? Is there any place you want to start? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. There's just too much. Should we start with a little bit of context, I guess, for this? And then we can really dive in. Sure. There's not a whole lot, but this movie was inspired by a play that a writer named Don McGuire wrote in the early 70s called Would I Lie to You about an unemployed male actor who cross-dresses to find jobs. The script was shopped around Hollywood for years. It went through different rewrites, different producers and directors were attached, different stars were attached. And then the script eventually was shared with Dustin Hoffman, who wanted the role and also wanted complete creative control of the project. Dorothy Michaels coded behavior. Yeah. He's like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell I want and no one can say anything about it. Yeah. And he wanted Sidney Pollock to direct. And to try to get him interested, Dustin Hoffman approached Elaine May to do a rewrite of the script. And she did a couple of things. She added the Bill Murray character, Jeff. She fleshed out Sandy's character. So Sandy was even less thought out than she currently is. That's so, what a bummer. What a bummer. So I'm guessing Elaine May added like Sandy's one good scene, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Let's go with that. Let's go with that. Yeah. So she made different changes. Elaine May is not credited as one of the writers, but she did this rewrite. Of course not. Of course. Yeah. We don't want to get the ugly idea that women were involved in this production. Yeah. The credited screenwriters are Larry Gilbert and Murray Schischkel. And then before production began, Dustin Hoffman worked with a voice, speech, and body language expert named Lillian Glass to learn how to speak and have the body language of a woman, which again, to me, the performance he gives feels very just like weird and stilted. And like he is capital P performing woman or like his bizarro idea of what a woman is like. Yeah. The accent was just like, it really blew me away. It was like so strange. Like there was a stutter that he put into it, which was so like, what was that choice? Like the, like, like the, he would stutter. And it was like, why is that part of this woman's experience? I don't. He's just like, he's always doing too much. Like there's just always this energy of like Oscar nomination for me in all of his roles. I mean, I think Rain Man is the most egregious of those, but like, but like he's just always trying to get an Oscar. I, there was an interview that he did maybe 10 years ago around this. And if you can listen to other Bechtelkass episodes for, you know, doesn't happen, fucking sucks as a person. Bad, bad guy. But there was an interview he did about this because like, I don't know, once the credits are rolling, I was just like, who is this for really? Like, who is this movie for? And I feel like he kind of gets at it unintentionally in this interview because he gets very emotional. I'm talking about Tizi. He's crying. Oh my. Yeah. And you're like, God, I love actors, but they give you so irritating. He's crying, crying, crying. And he says this, he's talking about the process of like, you know, finding Dorothy basically and the accent and all these things. And towards the end of the interview, he says that he was feeling emotional and talking to his wife about it and said that the reason the character appealed to him is because, quote, there are too many interesting women. I haven't had the experience of knowing in this life because I have been brainwashed. That was never a comedy for me. Unquote. So what do you see in there is that he has never in his life considered talking to a woman. He's found unattractive. And so by playing a woman that he did not find attractive, that actually was life changing for him. And he was crying about this. And you're like, OK, so I guess the movie is for whoever feels that way. Like sociopaths, like people who don't experience the emotion or feeling of empathy, and they they have to actually become that human being to feel any possible empathy. So Tyra Banks, I think that is who this movie is for. Oh my God. Yeah. So Tyra Banks and I have an entire bank should really sit down and try to define empathy together. And just, I don't know. First of all, I don't buy that this movie changed his views on women. Anyways, similar to how him playing a woman in the movie, like the Michael Dorsey character seemingly learns no lessons. The movie wants you to think he learns a lesson, but when you look closer, what growth does he actually clearly demonstrate? I would argue very little. I just want to go through. I have a monologue, if you'll indulge me. Not unlike Dorothy giving all of her monologues. Yeah. OK, so we have Michael Dorsey, a cis man, dressing in disguise, more or less, as a woman so that he can try to get acting roles. So first of all, he's literally taking a man taking away jobs and income from women while playing into all of these like horrific, still persistent stereotypes around drag. Yeah. And through this character, through Dorothy and again, by extension, Miss Kimberly, all these fans fall in love with Miss Kimberly because she's bold. She's assertive. She's empowering. She stands up to sexism. Women want to be like her and the show is more popular than ever because of this Miss Kimberly character. There's even a producer who says something like, you're the first woman character who is her own person who can assert her own personality without robbing someone of theirs. And it's like, OK, well, that's a fault of the writer's room for not writing any dynamic women characters. But anyway, well, yeah, that again, that producer character, like I was interested when she first shows up. But then it's like you sort of are led to believe she has no power on what happens in the show that it seems like she's in charge of. She's like, wouldn't this be within your power? Maybe I miss something. I don't know. Shrug. But anyway, so Miss Kimberly is regarded as this beloved, empowering woman, the only woman character like that on this soap opera. But again, the actor playing her is actually a cis man. And so we have to think about what are the implications of that here? And I like when I have a whole list of options. I'm curious what y'all think of this because of the specific choices that Michael is making for Dorothy, Miss Kimberly, like he's the one changing all of these lines of dialogue and like making this character more assertive. And so is the movie suggesting like, oh, yeah, well, only a man would think to like take these creative liberties and do something like that. Sure. Playing into the notion that men are just inherently more assertive and dominant. Or is it suggesting that because men are socialized to be more assertive and dominant and women are socialized to be polite and delicate, that a man pretending to be a woman is the only way a woman character could be assertive and dominant because of the way people of different genders are socialized differently? Or is the movie trying to comment on the one dimensional, tropey ways that characters who are women tend to be written, especially by writers who are men. Because the Miss Kimberly character is originally written to be more flat and stereotypical. Julie's nurse character on the show is similarly flat and stereotypical. But if this is commentary, I would argue that it is not very effective because again, a cis man who has lived his whole life as a misogynist, being the one who sheds light on this and opens everyone's eyes to the way women are being represented on screen. You know, not the best person to deliver this message. Yeah. Or is it saying that people will finally listen about sexism when it's a man pointing it out because this happens all the time in real life where people who are oppressed and marginalized will point out that they are being oppressed and marginalized and no one listens until people with privilege point out that others are oppressed and marginalized and then everyone starts to listen to that. I don't think it's that one, but there's just all these weird. I honestly might take away. And when I wish I had asked my mom what her takeaway was at the time, because I think that's a good interesting study. But like, I think what they're trying to do here and then like in the context of the story, it doesn't really work or make sense. I mean, so much of this doesn't work or make sense. It's kind of upsetting. But that like, I think that it's like, oh, by the tire banks, by embodying Dorothy, Michael's able to learn empathy for women. But that's really not how the story plays out. But I do think that that was maybe a lot of people's takeaway. If I were to hazard a guess at what my mom took away at the time, I think it was that. And if it, yeah, like if it was that, then the reveal would be so much different. Like in his like reveal where it's live on camera and he's revealing that he's actually a man, it would have had some dialogue around like, and I learned that from being my sister, that you guys treat women a really bad way because I'm her brother and I'm a man and I like there would have been dialogue around how he played, he was his sister and he now knows that, you know, women like, but like literally there was none of that. And like after he's revealed to be a man, there's no reflection, nothing. It goes directly into him trying to repair any relationship that he can to have sex with Jessica Lange. And he literally like goes to the bar, like the bar scene with her father is one of the weirdest fucking scenes. I think when he's like, he's like, I am a man. Like, like it goes back to like, don't worry, I'm a man and I'm going to. And I'm not gay. Don't worry about that. And I'm going to buy you a beer as a man and like we're men. I'm going to have sex with your daughter. I was like, what the fuck is going on? What is happening? Like nearly 15 minutes before this father was trying to have sex with Dorothy. And like literally now Dorothy's like, I'm a man. Like I was like, what is going on? It's so the people who the movie lets us see their reaction versus the people that we don't is so telling because it's like, personally, I don't give a shit what Wes thinks of all this. I am curious what happens with Terry Gar, but the last thing we the last we see of her, she's like, what? And that's it. Like she's gone. Yeah, this movie is like, it just so ultimately around like whatever, anything it might that people thought it was trying to say, I feel like it really backpedals on at the very last minute where it's like, but to be clear, we were all straight, sister, all straight. No worries. Let's drink beer. Let's crack a cold one. Let's let's let's let's put some P and to V and go nuts. Men are men and women are women and don't get it confused. Okay. He shows up to her place of work. He's like, you're my girlfriend now and let's get out of here. My favorite character was like, I feel like the beginning there's a crew member who has a headset. She's black and like, I feel like she's like the only character who like knows that Dorothy's a man. Like I feel like there's moments where she's kind of like looking around kind of just like, y'all seen this? What are we doing? Like, like what is happening? Like I feel like I trusted her with my life. Like I was like, this woman knows exactly what's going on, but no one will listen to her. She's the smartest person on set. Like in the way that black women are almost always the most discerning exactly in the room. And if only she was given any lines of dialogue. Literally. I kept waiting for her to have something to do. And it's I learned a little more about the actor Lynn Thigpen who passed back in, she died quite young. She died in 2003 in her fifties, but she had again, just like it is so frustrating, especially when it's like the, this is really the only black character with like meaningful dialogue and she still has nothing to do. And of course, like she's played by a like Tony award winning, like incredible actor who had like one in OB, one at Tony. She, okay, iconically to me, two, uh, two millennial things that she was a part of, she plays the chief in where in the world is Carmen San Diego. And she also plays the moon in Bear in the Big Blue House. Right? Like I was like, okay. A legend. But of course, like this movie just completely squanders her talent and doesn't write her character. It's just a mess. It's a mess. Yeah. I think the reason the takeaway for so many people, even though by our standards today feels like scraps, it's peanuts, it's almost nothing. But at the very end, when Michael approaches Julie and he says, I was a better man with you as a woman than I ever was with a woman as a man. I just got to learn to do it now without the dress. He really thought he was doing something. Yeah. He was like, I'm cooking. I'm cooking here. And he's just like, he might say that and he might feel that, but we don't see evidence of that. We're not shown anything to that effect on screen. Yeah. So it falls really flat. I had something I wanted to, there was a letter box review from a user, I really like Sally Jane Black wrote a review of this movie a couple of I think a couple of years back that I think like kind of captures a lot of like why this movie doesn't work. So I just wanted to share a little bit of it. She says, quote, feminism is not men learning to empathize with women by using them. Feminism is not a man praying on a woman who has been his friend for years to keep up a lie. Feminism is not using Michael's disgust at being kissed by a man as the inspiration for his changing character to be stronger. Skipping ahead a little bit. There is an undercurrent of turf thinking here in the service of making a film addressing the plight of cisgender women. This film presents the argument of those right wing misogynists parading as quote unquote feminists that men will dress as women to invade women's spaces, pray on them, lie to them, manipulate them, that a man presenting feminine is nothing but a predator. While this is emphatically not a film about a trans woman, it still rings in the hearts and minds of those who want to hate trans women. The argument is not and should not be walk a mile in our shoes. It should be patriarchy holds you back to. It goes on from there. It's a, it's a, we can link it in the description. I thought it was a really thoughtful review of this movie that of course, random letterbox users were being absolutely unhinged in the comments of. Oh, God, I bet. But I think like she, she, you know, sort of expands on all of the very regressive homophobic and transphobic and misogynist stereotypes that appear in this movie and sort of try to tell you that it's like a progressive, thoughtful character. I don't know. I really, I really like that so much. It reminds me of, did you guys watch Rua Housewives of Beverly Hills by chance? I have, yeah. Well, there's, there's a nonprofit called like walk a mile or something. And there was one season where Taylor wants all the husbands to be in this like marathon race where the whole premise is that you're going to run in heels. And they're all cackling and all the husbands are going, that's crazy. Like we have to wear heels like you. And like it's supposed to raise money for like survivors of domestic abuse. And it literally the whole thing is like, how funny that this big man is going to wear these stupid little heels that we wear. And it's like the whole thing is so gross and so like, like to me, this is the same culture as Tootsie. It's like, it's this such, so, so strange. And it's about how different gender experiences like are supposed to relate to each other and in like this like umbrella of misogyny. And it's really weird and gross. And it just reminds me of that. Like how funny that these men are going to put heels on. And it's supposed to like raise money for women survivors. It's like, that's so weird. Yeah, that's insulting and bizarre. Yeah. Well, similar to again, even though Michael Dorsey is a cis man pretending to be a woman, there's still transphobia inherent in the way that everyone who knows about what Michael is doing thinks it's weird and that he's sticking the head. Oh my God, you're going to wear women's clothing out in public. Well, and like, crucially, he really only ever talks to other cis men about this. Right. Because it's George and Jeff and they're both like, ooh, yucky. What are you doing? You weirdo. And Michael's just like, shrug. Shrug. Yeah, like they never explicitly say it, but there's just weird underlying feeling of like all the men being like, of course, we want to do this too. Like, obviously I want to wear a dress too, but that's it's disgusting and shameful. And there's this like weird underlying current of like, of like, yeah, of course, like men would be wearing dresses if we could. Like, but we're not supposed to. Like, it's just like their whole relationship to like cross dressing is this weird feeling of it existing and it being very inherent in culture. But so shameful that like you obviously can't talk about it or do it. But like the way they talk about it is like this weird like knowingness that it's there and it happens and that people do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, I it's so like and. I think going back to like something you said earlier, Katelyn, it's just like if this was the best that like pop culture had to offer at the time, like what a sign of how bleak things were this time where there is this. And there are two other movies that I honestly have not seen either of them, but they came out in either 1982 or 1983 that explore similar themes. Victor Victoria with Julie Andrews comes out this same year and then Yentl with Barbara Streisand comes out the year after with what I understand to be similar premises. I have not seen the movies, but like this was clearly like on like this was something that in the zeitgeist. Yes, that was there it is. It was in the zeitgeist at this time, but like not in a way that it just feels like it's stopping short of saying anything intentionally or like in this very Reagan era way presenting something and then at the end saying, well, but never mind and let's let's restore the quote unquote normalcy and let's restore order. Yeah, everyone take off your costume. Yeah. And live as the gender you were assigned at birth. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was it was interesting to watch this as a trans person and kind of like see the progress that has been made. Like, you know, we are regressing so much as a society, obviously, if you look at anything that if you're awake and you can see anything that's happening in our country, it is terrifying for trans people. But with that said, like it is crazy just to see the progress. Like as a trans person who's like in the industry, it's like, wow, like this is where we were at that moment. Like you just there was like the jokes that were made. The only way people interacted with him cross dressing was through like psychiatry of like, OK, you need to see a psychiatrist. You need to like fix this and figure it out. And it was crazy just to see that like there has been progress. Like there has been it's been amazing to see that there's progress and that. I don't know, just like I forget. I forget that that like, you know, we have come away. Yeah. Comparatively, possibly a long way in 45 years since this movie came out, but also with all of the legislation and they're going back. We're regressing. Yeah. But culturally, there are significant differences where we actually have trans characters on screen played by trans actors. I just remembered like was it last year or something like some right wing production company, they released a movie about like cis men, basketball players having to do drag and be cross dressed and be women to like play basketball. Really? I just wonder. Yeah. Yeah, I saw ads for it. And I was like, wow, like we are back at Tootsie, huh? Like, like that's so funny. Like we're back. We're back at Tootsie. And now we're correctly classifying it as Republican. That's so bizarre. I yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I rewatched a section of disclosure just because I remember Tootsie coming up quite a bit in that documentary or like there's multiple clips from it. And the section that I watched, I think it's interesting that and just like a point that I didn't consider on this first run, but how men in drag in the 80s specifically were kind of often positioned as a way to make it in a way that we see all the time seem like women had it better than men at this time. Women had more opportunities and there was, I forget what the other 80s movie was, but they used Tootsie as an example of like, well, a man in drag has a chance of being more successful in a professional environment, which is just like so ridiculous on premise and would be treated better and paid more and respected more than if they were just a random guy. And then there was a different movie that was cited that I wish I could remember the name of that is even more ridiculous where it's like men in drag that are like the plot narrative is that they're trying to get better housing. And you're like, in what world? It's I don't know. I'm sure that someone has written a like doctoral thesis on why exactly this was happening in this moment, but it was like, you see it again and again. It's just bizarre. It just reminds me of the 80s in terms of like, in terms of women's liberation of like, you know, sexuality is power. Like I feel like it was, you know, the 70s, the 60s, like now I'm going back multiple decades, but I just feel like with like liberation, it must have been some sort of pushback and some sort of like pushback against this like women being sexually free and being like, oh, so now you're like, because, you know, with misogynist, like only viewing women as sexual objects. And like, I just feel like there's some weird relationship between like women being more sexually liberated and being like, oh, so now you have privilege and now you can like have more than men because, you know, I can only look at you as a sexual object or something. Right. And that threatens people. And that's why there's always these cycles of progress and then backlash and then progress. I mean, it's why there's so much anti-trans legislation happening right now because trans people are more visible and freer to exist in the world than they once were. And that upsets a lot of horrible people and hence the pushback. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like, like what you were saying, I know you were talking specifically about drag, but in terms of like the trans experience, like I feel like there is a lot of hatred of specifically men towards trans women because men are miserable and they even with all the privilege that they experience, they're so deeply unhappy. And when they see someone feeling liberated, someone taking their destiny into their own hands and a symbol of freedom, it makes them angry. So angry that they're still stuck in that prison of masculinity that even with all the privilege that they get makes them so deeply unhappy because they can't be allowed to feel and have emotion and all those, you know, whatever the weird gender politics that we have. And then it comes also from cis women where like they see trans women and they go, you're just a man and you have all the privileges of a man. And now you're a woman, but you, but you were socialized as a man and there's a lot of anger there. And, and, you know, trans people can't win. It's like, you know, you're just, you're really put in that position where you're just like, I don't want to be a symbol for anything. I just, I'm just a person and I don't want to live. Yeah. I just, you know, in today's trans day of visibility, like right now, visibility sucks. It sucks to be visible as a trans person right now because of all the attacks and all the, you know, horrible stuff that's going on against trans people. The trans day of visibility as a phrase is so weird. It's like, I don't know who wrote that, but they, it should have been punched up. Like trans day of visibility is so weird. Like, well, like, what do you mean visibility? Trans day of empowerment. Like there's so many better words. I, I feel that way about a lot of taglines of that nature where sometimes it's like, even when someone's like, you are valid or whatever, you're like, can we like do a little better than that? Like, I don't know. It just feels like a given. Of course, everyone deserves to be visible. But then what? It's so weird. I almost feel the same way about like International Women's Day where I'm just like, okay, thanks for being nice to me and acknowledging women this one day. But like, what if we could just do that all the time? Or, or that, I mean, I whatever, like, let women exist. Like the word exists bothers me too. You're like, that I don't think we're asking for enough. I think we should be asking for more than visibility and existence. Also, if you can't like afford groceries or like gas or like, if you can't have like healthcare, it's like, who cares how like, visible or invisible or like, if it's your day or like, it's like, who the fuck cares if none of us can survive? Like, you have to survive to exist. Like you can't exist without food. Like it just, I feel like it's so patronizing to just like, try to have these days highlighting people and it's like, we just as people are trying to like survive. Like, yeah, it just makes me very angry against like the billionaire class. I'm sorry. I just get very angry. That's exactly. Yeah. It's like, right. Okay. For the other 364 days of the year, can you pay me enough? Right. Yeah. It's like the, the patronizing, like how, how so many social movements were like co-opted by like companies for like one day out of the year to be like, oh, yeah. Today, like, Shell gasoline loves trans people. And you're like, yeah. What the fuck are you talking about? Like, I got an email. Haliburton for transferring. I got an email from an escape room place that was like, happy International Women's Day. No. Women get 40% off of an escape room. And I'm like, do you want to get an end? Patriarchy is an escape room. Oh my God. That's so funny. That's great. I remember one of my favorite of like commentary on that kind of like patronizing representational politics stuff was, I think it was iffy Wadiway during the George Floyd protests in 2020. He made a fake post from SpaghettiOs. SpaghettiOs says Black Lives Matter. And it just like, it was so funny and like just perfectly was like, what, what does it mean? What does it mean to say SpaghettiOs believes that Black Lives Matter? What is SpaghettiOs doing about? My favorite version of that, and this was not even commentary. This was real life is on. There was one year for International Women's Day where Burger King tweeted and was like, we think that women belong in the kitchen. And then it was like, it was like highlighting their like, their like management program. And it was like, this is nuts. This is nuts. You can't do this. You can't do this. Oh, wait, they think women belong in the kitchen. Yeah, it said we think that women belong in the kitchen. And then it had a link to their like program. Yeah. What are we doing? What's going on exactly? I feel nostalgia for those days. We've we've things have gotten so bad that I'm missing the performative representation. I miss it. I miss banks celebrating pride. I miss Bank of America pride. Because that I mean, like speaking to your point, Nori, like that isn't even really happening anymore. Like they're like, we don't need to pretend to be an ally anymore. There's no more pretending. Oh, I mean, it's yeah, I do feel weird. It is. I was I think when that like 2016 trend was going on, I was miserable, but you're just like, wow, people used to fake allies better. Like billionaires used to pretend like they didn't want us all to add. Like they like they used to be like, no, we want you to be alive. And now no more of that. It's like, no, we want you to die and like you need to die. It's like, what? Well, it's and I think that like getting back to Titi, like I think that there is that energy there of like the feminism that Dorothy Michaels represents is catchphrase feminism and she's a Republican. For sure. That out of the way. Dorothy is a Republican. Sure. Oh, yeah. For sure. There's a scene where Dorothy as Miss Kimberly on the show and one of her what is supposed to be an empowering speech that she gives on set. She's talking to a patient who has been violently abused by her husband. And Miss Kimberly is like, if you're being beaten by your husband, then you should just beat your husband back. That's what I would do. It's very she's discouraging her from extracting herself and her children from this abusive relationship. She's like, no, just beat him back. It's all very like and and and also the the actor there was like it disagrees with I don't know. It's just always like Dorothy has to be the most feminist in the room, even though Michaels behavior bears this out negative 20 percent. It doesn't make any sense. Speaking, going back to Dorothy Michaels as a Republican, the second you said that Noria, I was like, oh, she kind of like Dorothy Michaels kind of looks like Anita Bryant, like homophobia era Anita Bryant. So true. That's so true. Like the costuming. Yeah. Like that is her. Yeah. Yeah. Like she is she's a friend to no one. I just don't under, I don't know. Dorothy Michaels at best is talking in these platitudes that are also clearly written by men, which, you know, I could see someone arguing is commentary, but it's not because it's like it can't really be commentary on TV that much because we don't really know who's making the TV. We can assume that it's a room full of cis men, but we don't see that. We don't understand why this woman producer has no power on her own show. We don't know what the one black woman in the movie is thinking at any time that the actor isn't like, you know, putting into her eyes, basically. I have a question. Oh, please. If this movie was made today, how do you think it would end? OK, so I have sort of a to answer to that because this movie was adapted for Broadway recently. Yeah, within the past like six or seven years, I think, right? And like one Tony's and all of this stuff. It's weird because not very there were lines that changed, but there was not a lot about the plot that changed. Sorry, I have I did this research about a week ago, so I need a second to pull it up. But I think the main difference was that there was a lot of queer criticism of the Broadway musical being like, well, what the hell? Like, what was that? Because it was once again written and directed by cis straight guys. The Broadway musical was praised in the general sense. It was nominated for Tony's. It did well. The setting was changed from soap operas to I think Broadway. But there was a ton of criticism around how little changed. Oh, my God. It reminded me of a conversation we had on our to Wong Fu episode, Caitlin, because that had a similar trajectory as did Priscilla Queen of the Desert. They were also both adapted into Broadway and like didn't do a lot of course correcting on the flawed source material. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like depressingly. The answer is maybe I don't I don't know how differently it ends. What what? What do you all think? Yeah, yeah, do you have a pitch for? I haven't thought too much about it, but I think like. I think there would be the speech would be different. I think it would include what he learned. Maybe this is more hopeful than maybe this is like what I would hope rather than like what would actually happen as you just said with the it got rebooted and nothing changed. But like I just would hope that like there would be a different speech like there would just be some different speech and him and Julie would not get back together. They would not. He would not be able to get with her. He would have a really hard conversation with with the character, the woman that he was leading on. Sandy. I think he would not win in the end. He would win nothing. He would have lost everything and I think would just have to like live with like that that was weird that he did a weird thing. Yeah, which is like not even punishment enough really. Yeah. Yeah. He should donate all the money he earned on the show to. Yes. Yeah. So the women's shelter. Support women. Yes. The way I'm curious what you both think about Julie's storyline. I've had Julie to be so perplexing. There are elements of her that like, I don't know, there were like little commentary bits to Julie's character that I was like, that's interesting. We won't be getting into it, but that's interesting. One of like the more subtle things is that she does not discuss publicly that she is a mother. I thought that was kind of that felt like actual effective commentary of like, well, being a mother and being an unmarried mother, you would be perceived as unattractive or old or whatever it was. And so she doesn't talk about her child publicly and only sort of tells people that in the 1982 version of a green circle, because there is clearly some stigma with that. I, you know, there is some light commentary on how poorly women were represented in TV at this time. But again, it's completely undercut by the fact that like, I mean, in the, I think when we meet Julie, she's, she's like, hi, I'm the slutty nurse. And then you're like, well, because yeah, that's the character that has been written for her, that she has to play. And it's not that she isn't aware of that. It's that she is accepted that like she, or, you know, it's like sort of position like she's accepted that there, she will never be treated differently. So, so like, might as well laugh about it. Which is like, sure, you can fall into complacency when you're, when you don't think you'll ever be treated like a person at work. But then the movie sort of posits like, and so what she needed was Michael Dorsey to make her realize that wasn't okay. Teacher about feminism. Right. Yeah. Yes. That is baffling. Also later on, she's talking about how, how much she values Dorothy. As a friend and how much Dorothy has taught her and inspired her. And that's why she breaks up with Ron. And I'm like, okay, but like that breakup scene happens off screen. I don't really have any other, any other indication. Didn't she come back and say she didn't or did I make that up? I feel like I have a memory that she was like, I didn't do it. Or like, she does eventually. And then she says like, I'm lonely. Who am I going to have dinner with now? And I think she says something that almost implies that Dorothy teaching her about standing up for herself and being empowered as a woman, like has made her lonely and made her because of the awareness she has. She's now like unhappy with the world and power dynamics and stuff like that. Which fair, like people who are aware and informed and enlightened are also often deeply unhappy because of the state of the heart. I was like, well, I mean, I can read. I didn't just read that part. So I'm not criticizing that. That's my perhaps my lived experience. That's exactly how I feel right now. So yeah, I'm not criticizing that. And I'm also maybe just reading into it because she doesn't explicitly say that. But what we do know or what she does say is that Dorothy has taught her so much because Dorothy's always herself. And the joke is, well, Dorothy isn't herself. That's not even Dorothy. That's a guy named Michael Dorsey. But Michael Dorsey as Dorothy has taught Julie how to be an empowered woman. But I'm also just not really seeing evidence of that. So I don't know what she's talking about. Yeah, I think like any progress in Julie's character is spurred by Dorothy. And at the end that just ends up being like kind of sad. Mm hmm. When you say sad, like one of the saddest scenes for me is when Michael is so late to that dinner that was Sandy such Sandy makes. And then like, he's like, you should be mad at me. Be mad at me. Like, don't apologize. And like them putting her character in such a low point that the perpetrator is telling her like, why are you not mad at me? It's like, yeah, like you wrote the scene. Like you wrote the scene and you wrote it to where she's that pathetic. That really was sad. Oh, it really bummed me out. Yeah, where it's like, I don't know, for the only like Julie and Sandy, both hot white blonde ladies, so already you're like, OK, this is what the movie's doing, but Sandy is just treated so horribly by the plot in a way that like I think that we're supposed to. I mean, obviously, Michael having sex with her is framed as a joke, even though it's like core weird coercive sex. And then he treats her poorly for the rest of the movie. It just made me so sad. Yeah, watching her with the with the food alone and then immediately forgiving him. I do. I like when she lashes out at him. I like that when she says, I never said I love you. I don't care about I love you. I read the second. This is all very second way feminism. I read the second sex. I read the Cinderella complex. I'm responsible for my own orgasm. I don't care. I just don't like to be lied to. I feel like there's something in there, but it doesn't pay off in any any way to sort of like lip service because like Terry Gar is selling me on it. I do think that there is I mean, going back to like the idea that like being empowered can also translate to feeling kind of isolated and lonely. That's sort of what she's saying here. She's like, I am a feminist. I, you know, I I've done the work. I'm doing my best and I just I feel like shit. I just want to be treated like a person by you. And like there's like there's there's like truth in that. Unfortunately, he never does that. So like why bother? He never tells her he was lying to her the whole time. He never apologizes. He never comes clean in any way. She just never appears on screen after that scene. So there's no resolution there. Yeah. Like you said, Jamie, like them having sex feels very like he tricks her. He lies about his intentions of why he was naked. There's also a weird thing where she sees him and she's like, Michael parentheses horrified, but then she's like, Michael parentheses. In true warning. I'm like, OK, what the hell is this? And then he's like, yeah, I want you. And then so they have sex. She says something like men have sex with me and then they lose interest and they ignore me and I don't want that to be this way. But also the movie is so all over the place with how it characterizes her because for most of the time, it seems like like the way she's waiting around and constantly being stood up by Michael, the movie wants you to think that she's pining after him and expecting to get into a serious committed relationship with him. But then at the end, she says, I don't even care about any of that. I just don't want to be lied to, which fair. But then what was all that other stuff where the movie makes it seem like she does deeply care about that stuff? So yeah, I just feel like the movie cannot make up its mind on how we are supposed to perceive her, how she actually feels about the situation. Well, and also there's a big to do made of like she doesn't want to do the play with him anymore because he's been so deceptive. And then at the end, the only indication of her existence is that she does do the play. There's like a sign with their names on it. So they I mean, everyone is just so trapped. She says like normally I would say screw your play, but because I'm a professional, I'm going to do it anyway. So I'll see you at rehearsal or whatever. And then she says, I do I do like this is just like I love Terry Garry. But like when she when she does that whole speech and then she goes, are these chocolate covered cherries? I laughed. I like it. Also, there's a part where he so Michael is talking about Sandy to his roommate Jeff and he's saying something like, well, I never promised her that I would be exclusive, but but I'm kind of letting her think that so as to not hurt her feelings. So he says that then in a later scene, Michael as Dorothy is talking to Ron. Ron regurgitates that exact same thing about Julie, where Ron is like, well, I never promised I would be exclusive to her, but I'm telling her that I'm exclusive so as to not hurt her feelings. It is wild. And you'd think that would be a moment of Michael being like, oh my God, that's so shitty. And I did that same shitty thing. He just keeps packing. He has no reflection, no introspection whatsoever. He's just like, well, you suck, Ron. You're a shitty guy. It's like, you're all so shitty. Yeah. The only change that we see, the only progress that we see is that Michael just starts liking dresses like more. Like he just starts to have more of appreciation for the craftsmanship of like, where like, like, he like, by the end, he's like, this is a Houston. And I like, I love Houston. And it's like, oh, so like, literally the only thing that you've changed is you like, like designer clothing. I don't like, like it was so bad. And superficial. There were so many opportunities for him to learn the many, many ways that women are oppressed and marginalized simply because of their gender. And he learns basically nothing except for, he says something like, it's so expensive to buy all these clothes and lingerie and handbags. That it does remind me of a date I went on years ago where it was like a guy. Emphatically explaining to me how expensive skincare products were for women for like, and then at the end being like, kiss please. Like I did it. And you're just like, okay. Like, I don't know. I there's just so much going on in this movie that makes me very sad for all marginalized people of the 1980s. And so, and I feel like this is something I know we're running out of time, but something that feels actually very in conversation with not the Bechtel test, but like Alice in Bechtel's work, which was, you know, happening throughout the 80s, the idea of like for many people. And I saw this in the comments. I saw this on Letterbox, mostly from older users saying that this was the closest they saw in a very successful movie to lesbian representation. And how depressing is that? Like, there's been a lot. A lot of pieces written about this over the years. One I'm going to quote from is from a blog called Diva Drivel. Kind of a good thing. Got a good name called Looking for the Lesbian in Tootsie. I just wanted to share this perspective because I actually, I like, I do, I do see the appeal of Julie's character, even though it resolves in the most Republican way possible. So from this piece, in spite of the baggage that comes with a film that presents dated ideas about gender and sexuality, I still find myself drawn to Tootsie because of the unresolved ambiguity of Julie's sexuality. Julie is blonde, beautiful, moderately famous and already entangled in a front relationship, blah, blah, blah. Despite Julie's aversion towards seeing Dorothy out of her clothes as Michael pleads, she confesses to having quote, the same impulses, unquote, as Dorothy. In a curious statement, she tells Dorothy that she is responsible for the encounter because she is just not well adjusted enough, which is such a specific choice of words there. It continues. What does Julie mean by this? Well adjusted to what? I just got one thing to say. I just want to say that Tootsie walked so that Carol could run. Okay. They're in conversation. Oh yeah. But yeah, implicit in her statement is that lesbians are not well adjusted women because they indulge these impulses while well adjusted women learn to bottle them up and put them away, which is like, I honestly, I have no idea what we're supposed to think about Julie by the end of this movie. It seems like Julie herself is very unresolved about what this whole experience has meant to her. And the movie kind of doesn't care enough to give us any sort of meaningful resolution. I think we are just supposed to be like, well, now she has to date Dustin Hoffman. Like that sounds miserable. She threw a drink in his face because there's a scene. Oh yeah. Where Dorothy and Julie are hanging out and Julie is talking about her relationships with men and run and just dating in general and how complicated it is to be a woman in the 80s. And she says something like, I wish a guy would just be honest enough to walk up to me and say, listen, I'm confused about this too. I could lay a big line on you, but the simple truth is I find you really interesting and I'd really like to make love to you. So later when Michael, who is again at a party on a date with Sandy, blows Sandy off, goes up to Julie, says that exact same line. And of course Julie throws a drink in his face because that is a, that is a not so thing to say to someone. He's coming on so strong. And then he's like, oh yeah, but it also kind of makes Julie seem like she doesn't know what she wants because she just said she wanted that thing. I don't think Julie does know what she wants. And the underlying message is that women are liars. I think like there was a very male, very misogynistic message there that I was hearing around like women say they want nice guys, but then when nice guys say, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, then I say, I heard that like gross manosphere kind of language, you know, totally. Yeah. Michael is manosphere code. Yes. Yeah. Like it is presented like Julie doesn't know what she wants, but the movie doesn't care about that. Like I would be willing to engage with a character who's like unsure about like, what do I want out of a relationship? Like what is my sexuality? What are my preferences? Blah, blah, blah. But like the movie doesn't care. So it's just like you're presented with all of this stuff. It's also kind of like weirdly like Dorothy's doing some like mommy stuff on the trip and like in a way that felt so manipulative where she's like talking about her dead mother and then it felt like Michael as Dorothy was like, I'm your mommy now. It was just really confusing. Oh yeah. Cause they get into bed together and then yeah, which is I mean, I love sharing the bed with a friend and I hate movies that discouraged me from doing that. Fair. I cannot share a bed with anyone under any circumstances. I would rather sleep on the floor. We've shared a bed. I know, but I'm so bad. Well, cause I'm the worst sleeper. I hated it. I hated it. Jamie. I thought you hated sharing a bed with me in Seattle. I hated it. In Seattle, Katelyn, you hated that? We threw up. We've shared multiple beds together. I think also in Washington, DC. I don't know why Seattle stuck out with me. See, you remember where we were. I don't know. It meant something. Let me tell you something. I have such bad insomnia that if someone is in the bed with me, unless I have taken a smorgasbord of sleepy time drugs. I will not sleep. I have laid awake until 7 a.m. because a man was next to me in a bed. I hate to hear that. And this has happened on multiple occasions in my life. Anyway, they share the bed. Dorothy starts like petting Julie. And she's like, no, don't stop. My mom used to do this. And I'm like, that could be a nice moment in a different movie, but it's in this movie and it's weird. And then this all culminates in Dorothy trying to kiss Julie, Julie pulling away the, you know, the scene we've been talking about. And then the aftermath of that is Julie being like, I'm too homophobic to be your friend anymore. Basically, which has kind of couched in the like, it's not that I'm homophobic. It's that I need you to out yourself to my dad today. Yeah. And I, I feel like I'd be leading you on because the mentality of the time was that right here. People were so sexually aggressive that you can't even be friends with them. Yeah. I, I have to confess something. We have limited time left. I have to confess something. Tell us. I was sexually attracted to her dad. Less. I don't know. I don't know. No shame. There was something. But I did gasp. He was so sweet. He was so sweet and his wife died and he's a widower and he just like was like so nice to Dorothy and like he just wanted like to be happy and like live like a joyful small life. And that really, if I was Dorothy, I could not have resisted and I would have gone with less. Wow. Like he, he should have been so lucky. He was just like, he was solid. He was the only man in that film that was a solid man. But I hate him. Well, did he do something bad? Am I forgetting that he did something bad? His last, I think his last appearance is like sucks. Oh, yeah. He's weird and homophobic. But then even before that, he goes on this tirade about how gender needs to be this rigid thing. I couldn't stand him. He's also like, he keeps being creepily like touching Dorothy and invading her space and crossing her boundaries. In real life, less would end up with a trans woman. In real life, less is trans attracted. He finds out later in life. He finds a woman who's trans and he lives a beautiful happy life on the farm with his trans lover. Like that is, that's real life. That's real life in the movie. It's really weird and there's a lot of weird stuff going on. But in real life less, he has a beautiful trans wife. That's just, that's, that's, that's life. That's beautiful. I'm here for it. Maybe that's, maybe that's how it ends. In the rebut. Everything else is exactly the same, except less has a beautiful trans wife at the end of the movie. But he takes her, he takes her dancing. He just wants to dance. Come on. We're, I like the way he's presented is very sweet at first. And then the layers start to peel back. They do peel. They do peel. They do. Okay. Okay. And Julie, Julie, I, this family, like, I don't know what the hell's going on with this family. It's a mess. There was sexual tension between them. Yes. I was going to say, there was a very, like the way she, I also just think it's whatever I, you know, I want, I want my mom to have a nice boyfriend. Sure. Of course they do. Why not? But I wouldn't be like, I'll leave you two alone. Like you're like, oh, gross, gross. Like I want her to have a great relationship that has nothing to do with me. Like what? Gross. Like, yeah. People love to hyper sexualize the relationship between fathers and daughters. It's their favorite. Oh God. Wasn't that a thing? weren't we talking about that in like say anything or something? I'd say anything is one of the horniest father-daughter relationships ever. Cause he gives her like a ring at the beginning of the movie. Yeah. He proposes to his own daughter or something. Yeah. I know we're running out of time. I just have a few quick things I want to rattle off. First of all, I think this movie suffers from too many subplots. There are like seven and it should have been maybe three tops. But the subplots that we haven't really talked about are the quick thing with the actor John Van Horn, who plays Dr. Brewster. Oh, yes. He attempts to rape Dorothy. Oh my God. And that's written off with what is definitely intended to be a joke. Sally Jane Black talks about this at her review as well, where Michael says, rape is no laughing matter. And then there's like a literal pause for laughs for the 1982 audience that's like, sure it is. It's the funniest thing in the world. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's a mess. There's a tiny, tiny little Gina Davis subplot where it's, I guess it's more of a through line than anything, but the whole thing there is that she keeps being almost naked in front of Dorothy, not realizing that Dorothy is actually Michael. And so she's like in her bra and underwear all the time. And then when she realizes that Dorothy is a man, her eyes bulge and she's like, oh no, I've been naked in front of him the whole time. And that's played as a joke. There's a few instances where Sandy makes fat phobic remarks. Always about Dorothy, but she never knows that she's talking about Dorothy. So, Dorothy, not for nothing, Dorothy. Isn't fat. Skinny as hell. Yeah. Like skinny as hell. And Dustin Hoffman is very thin. Yeah. I mean, that's just again, the like absolute like crippling depression of the 1980s, where you're just like, what are you even saying? It's, it's mind boggling. Yeah. There's just there, I know we're, we're, there's more to say, but yeah, we're, we're running out of time. So I'm like, but I've had a great time here today. I have as well. Me too. Does this maybe pass the back door to us? I don't even like, no, it doesn't. Unless someone were to count Dorothy as a female character, but no. No way. No. Because like without that, like there was no scene where two women were talking, right? I, I, I can't remember one. I don't think so. And if it did happen, it was a coincidence at best. Yeah. Like all of that, like all of Sandy's friends are men, which as an actor, doesn't really make sense. It doesn't seem like Julie, in spite of being a sweet person, is friends with any of the other women on set. It's just like is yet another example of every woman in the story being just like narratively, like there's these little narrative baby gates around them so that they can never speak to another woman. And yeah, I don't think it passes the Bechtel test, literally or spiritually. No, but what about our nipple scale, the scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens? This is tricky. Again, for the time, this was probably a feminist masterpiece in 1992. Sasha Palmer. Bleak as hell. But obviously looking at it in 2026, everything that it is maybe trying to do falls absolutely short. There are so many issues with all of the text, all of the subtext. Everything about it just is kind of rotten to me. So I think I, I'll give it a half nipple for its legacy of being a quote unquote feminist work for its time and paving the way for other better stories that explore similar themes about gender and misogyny and things like that. But again, by today's standards, it is not really doing anything. So half nipple and I'll give it to Terry Gar. Yeah, I'm going to go half nipple too. If this is like a movie that you loved on nostalgic premises, like revisit it. I think it's it is this probably was considered very like different. And it, it, I just have only really ever seen in the broadest possible way this movie presented as a tale of empathy. And I think if you go back and watch it, the empathy just isn't there. Where is it? Where is it at? Is the empathy in the room with us right now? It is just a Reagan relic that like you said, Caitlin, I think, you know, if you got something out of this movie and it led you to actual empathetic work, then great. But yeah, for our purposes, it does not do well. Half a nipple also going to Terry Gar. What about you, Nori? Yes, I OK, so I'm going to give a quarter nipple for nostalgia. Like I really did like, you know, the grainy camera that I was really loving the style, the colors, the I was really into that nostalgia element. So a quarter nipple for that alone. You know what? Another quarter nipple for the love of my life less. So half a nipple. OK, in terms of trans nipples, I'm going to do negative 10. It was so painful to hear some of that dialogue. It was so transphobic and really hurt. And also Dorothy was brick as hell and no one's believing that that's a woman. OK, so negative 10. I'm going to give my half a nipple to my boy less, you know, before the the onion peels, you know, before the layers were shown, he seemed like a nice guy, but unfortunately, we did see who he was. So that sucks. But yeah. But in the reboot, he will be on the farm with his gorgeous trans wife. Yes, played by Sasha Colby from RuPaul's Drag Race. Yes, yes. Well, Nori, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, my pleasure. Thank you for enduring to see we're sorry. I'm going to need some therapy. I'm going to need to do therapy after this. No, this was a delight to talk to you guys. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Where can people follow you on social media? Find your work, etc. Yeah, I'm on Instagram. It's just Nori Reid. Find me there. I'll post about shows I'm doing. I'm always performing in the LA area. So yeah, check me out. Hell yeah. And you can follow us on Instagram and our Patreon, a.k.a. Matrion, where for $5 a month, you get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the back catalog, always on a fun little theme that Jamie and I cook up. And that's at patreon.com slash becktolecast. And with that, let's we could we could fix less. We could fix less. Yeah, let's go to his farm and fix him. Couldn't fix Michael, but maybe less, but maybe less. Put him in a dress. Put less in the dress. Less in the dress. Less in the dress. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I Heart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only, Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtel cast. Virgin Media gives you show stopping TV and broadband. You get the channels you love, including Netflix and now Sky Atlantic at no extra cost. That's epic entertainment. You can't stop watching a bit like an elephant cruising on a truck through the bright lights of Bangkok. Plus, you get lightning fast broadband too. 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