Frannie Block on Jared Isaacman & America’s Return to the Moon, Aron Solomon on Trump and Iran

the world. Westwood one presents America at night. Here's your host McGraw Millhaven. Hey, let's jump right into it. We got lots to get to tonight. We got stories going on all over literally the universe. And the big story is that the Artemis two is going to land tomorrow and just recently the news has been released. We are going to be talking about the heat shields. Well, one of the investigative reporters who's been on this story from the very beginning is a former reporter for the Des Moines register. She is now a reporter investigative reporter for the Free Press Frannie Block joins us for a couple minutes. Frannie, Welcome to America at night. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. You know, the heat shields has been a topic of conversation since the space shuttle on the very first one was launched. I thought that all these years later, it would be taken care of, but apparently there's a lot of people holding their breath about tomorrow's landing. Indeed, there are and actually the issues with the heat shield on the vehicle that the astronauts are currently on date back to 2022. That's when NASA sent Artemis one. That's the first mission as part of this Artemis program. It was not autonomous mission sent kind of doing a similar path to what the astronauts have just done. But in fact, in 2022, the heat shield on that vehicle came back with cracking and charring. And that was very jarring, obviously, to try to understand what went wrong there. The heat shield understandably is one of the most important parts of this vehicle. When it comes back through the atmosphere, these vehicles can face heats of up to 5000 degrees Fahrenheit and they're traveling at like 25,000 miles per hour. So it's extremely important that this piece of technology works as it's going to be. So this one comes back in 2022 and it's got problems. NASA had already installed the same type of heat shield on the Orion spacecraft that the astronauts are currently flying on today. So instead of adding a new heat shield to account for the problems that they noticed in the Artemis one mission, what NASA did instead is they altered the mission plan to account for what Jared Isaacman, the administrator of NASA told me were the quote shortcomings on the vehicle now. So they're actually going to be entering the atmosphere at a steeper angle than the Artemis one vessel did and that is to try to reduce the amount of time that the vessel is going to be in that kind of mode of facing those really, really high temperatures. They might even face higher temperatures than the Artemis one vehicle, but they'll be in that time. They'll be facing that temperature for less time to try to account for those shortcomings. How worried are people in the free press? It's the first time I heard of anything like this. How worried are people? So it depends on who you ask. If you ask Jared Isaacman, he'll tell you he feels fully confident that NASA engineers in altering the mission profile did everything they needed to do to keep the astronauts safe and to make sure the heat shield stands up and does what it's supposed to do. So he claims that he feels confident that NASA did the best that they could given the technology on that vehicle and the astronauts on that vehicle. They say we believe that we're set up for success. We believe that this new mission plan, this new angle that we're going to come in, is going to keep us safe. If you ask other people, there are some detractors still. There is a former astronaut who I interviewed. His name is Charlie Kamarda. He was part of the Space Shuttle program. And he was also a former NASA engineer, a pretty high level engineer who focused specifically on these thermal protection systems. And he told me he's extremely confident that he's going to be able to do this. He sat in on a meeting with NASA in January where they read him in on some of the data that they've done testing this heat shield, testing the new angle, and he said he didn't come away from that feeling confident. There were other concerned astronauts who went to that meeting saying they came out of that meeting feeling that they changed their mind. So it's kind of mixed on how people feel about it. With all that being said, even though Jared Isaacman, for example, has told me he feels confident the team has done the best they can to get the heat shield back into the water. Why is this different or more difficult than all of the Space Shuttle landings? I thought the heat shield issue had been taken care of. Well, many people believe that. And in fact, you know, obviously during the Apollo era, they had to figure out how to get vehicles that are coming back into the atmosphere safely. So they'd already figured this out all the way back 50 years ago. Part of that question is that, you know, they've sent people back to the moon again in half a century. And so obviously when you're coming back from the moon, you're coming at a faster speed than you would be if you're coming back from, let's say, the International Space Station. And as a result, that alters the mission profile, alters what those vehicles are going to have to face when they come back through the atmosphere. And some would argue that in the 50-year period that NASA essentially gave up on trying to go to the moon, they've perhaps lost a bit of that technical ability. They've lost even some of the knowledge that they built up during the Apollo era to build these spaceships to withstand. So those are some of the critiques that NASA's gotten in the past 50 years for essentially, as some may argue, giving up on that mission of going to the moon. And those are some of the hurdles they're now trying to get back into the flow of things as part of this Artemis program. Franny Block is with us. She is an investigative reporter with the Free Press. You said that they changed some of the parameters and if I heard you correctly, they changed the angle to be more 90 degrees than less. Does that lessen the friction? Or does that increase the friction, the steeper you come with an angle back down to Earth? So the steeper you come back down into Earth, it could decrease the amount of time that the spaceship is going to be subject to those really, really high temperatures. So that's part of NASA's strategy here, is to decrease the amount of time that the heat shield is going to have to spend in high temperatures. It could potentially subject the vehicle to higher temperatures, but NASA engineers have said that they are confident that this heat shield, the way it's built, can withstand those temperatures and with the reduced time it should hold up. That is their plan, going into this re-entry. We should also say that the capsule is significantly bigger than the capsules that brought the Apollo astronauts back to space. So the size that is taking on the heat is also bigger, which also has to be a concern. Absolutely. So this heat shield, which was manufactured by Lockheed Martin, it measures 16.5 feet wide. So it is very, very big and obviously it actually uses a similar material to reduce the heat. It's called Avcoat. That material was also used during the Apollo missions, but obviously on a much wider scale. Do you think there are plans to change it out or to have a different type of heat shield system for Artemis III and 4 and beyond? Yes, absolutely. So when I spoke with Jared Isaacman last week in Houston, Texas, he told me that obviously he believes in what the NASA engineers have done to change the mission profile here, but this is not how he wants NASA operating moving forward. He said moving forward, we want to become hardware rich. We no longer want to be in a position where we only have one heat shield, that if it's not perfect, we're going to have to modify it as is. Instead, he wants NASA to get to the point where if they're not happy with any piece on any spacecraft, they're going to swap it out. And so that is what he said his plan is going forward for NASA. He wants to increase NASA's production capabilities, so this is no longer the way that they're operating. It's going to land tomorrow. What time are they expected to start the process and how long is it going to take for them in that blackout period and how long before we're going to know it all worked. So right now the Orion spacecraft which these four astronauts are traveling on, they are set to enter the atmosphere just after 8pm Eastern time and they're set to come down just off the coast of San Diego. They're going to be traveling at a speed of up to 25,000 miles per hour. They could face up to 5000 degrees Fahrenheit in temperature, but basically once they make it through the atmosphere, that's going to be that short blackout period and then parachutes are meant to deploy and then the vehicle will be kind of gently splashed down into the Pacific Ocean where a US naval ship is supposed to receive them and take them straight to the hospital for medical evaluations. Alright. Franny Block, you had an opportunity to sit and mission control during takeoff. Tell me about that. So I actually watched takeoff from Cape Canaveral and I ended up watching it from the beach with many people who traveled all over the world actually to see this. So Cape Canaveral it's in Florida right next to the Kennedy Space Center which is where all of these major launches have gone into space, space X missions, NASA missions, so it's a pretty historic spot. And I spoke with people who flew in from London, people who flew in from Canada, from Massachusetts, California, Colorado, all flew down to Florida just to witness this historic moment. And I'll tell you the thing that stood out to me most beyond just the distance that people traveled to see this it was the kids. It was so many kids who were running around on that beach and they were so excited and inspired seeing this rocket go off into space. And one kid sticks out in particular a 12-year-old boy named Harry who actually is blind and he told me obviously he couldn't see the rocket but he could feel the rocket. He could feel like the sonic booms and the way that he lit up explaining what it felt like to witness a rocket going into space it was such a heartwarming experience just to be able to speak with him and so many of these other kids who you know want to become NASA engineers one day because of this experience. They say that that whole area every hotel was filled up there wasn't a hotel vacancy within miles of the launch. Absolutely and I can tell you from my experience just trying to find parking that it was absolutely packed and people were really excited and it truly was one of those moments you know with so much going on in the world in the country and potentially you know our fraught political times just sit there on the beach with so many different people and watch this amazing feat of technology right in front of your eyes it's one of the coolest experiences I've ever had. It has been a virtually flawless mission up until now has it not? So far it's gone really really well. I heard NASA astronauts and engineers remarking it frankly how pleasantly surprised they were that the countdown to get those astronauts launched into space really went quite smoothly every little thing that came up they were able to address right away everything kind of went totally on schedule on April 1st which after months of delays for the mission really I think was a huge relief since they've been in space it's I think everything has really gone according to plan. I had a chance to speak with one of the flight directors in Houston at Mission Control and he told us that yes everything is going really well the astronauts are so it's in such high spirits they're so excited to be doing what they're doing. I spoke with him just the day before they went and actually circled that far side of the moon which I know they were very excited to do so besides a couple little issues with the toilet on board the Orion spacecraft it seems that everything has really gone well for them up there. Yeah people joke about the toilet that's been sort of the comedic part of this mission obviously no joking matter what was wrong with the the toilet. Yes absolutely not a joking matter in fact when they first got up into space and were having some issues getting the toilet up and running that was a question of whether or not they were even going to be able to make it to the moon if the toilet didn't work as planned so it was a serious issue. At the start it seems like it might have just been a delay in kind of getting started. Christina Koch one of the astronauts on board who calls herself the space plumber says that she was able to figure that out pretty quickly. Since then they've had a couple issues with getting rid of some of the waste from the aircraft it seems that some things might have gotten frozen and making it hard to get rid of the waste but it seems that they've been able to work around it. It has been kind of a cropping up issue here and there but they've been able to make it through. From the free press it's Franny Block with us who is an investigative reporter. We have about two minutes left or so tell me about the head of NASA Jared Isaacman. So Jared Isaacman he's a really interesting figure he actually is not a NASA astronaut from his background which makes him a really interesting person to be leading the agency today but he does have a ton of experience in space. So quick background on him. He dropped out of high school when he was 15 16 years old in New Jersey and ended up starting a company called Shift 4 which is now a multi-billion dollar company. So Isaacman is a self-made billionaire from there he started a company that was helping the United States military train for adversarial air fighting so he had become a pilot during his younger years and ended up buying one of the largest private fleets of fighter jets and that's how he applied it a company called Dragon International and then from there he gets connected with SpaceX. And that is when he claims he made an offhand comment at a business meeting in SpaceX and said he always wanted to go to space and he was a little kid and he ends up piloting the first ever all civilian trip to space. It was him and three other civilians who went in 2021 on a mission called Inspiration 4 and that was through SpaceX he financed the mission and then he financed a second SpaceX mission a few years later called Polaris Dawn when he became the first civilian to do a space walk. So Jared actually has a ton of experience literally being in space but again not necessarily as a NASA astronaut. So when he came into this role many people had a lot of questions about what his background would be but it seems like he's really keen on running NASA like a business. He tells me that he's not worried about budget cuts for example because he thinks that NASA is going to run best when it's feeling poor and it's feeling the pressure and so that's his kind of new perspective that he's trying to bring to the organization. Franny Brock is with us she writes for the free press and she's an investigative reporter and Franny thank you very much for your insight. Valuable, valuable information. We'll all be saying a prayer for the four astronauts as they head back to the earth tomorrow and we all pray that those heat shields hold up and they get back safely sound in San Diego in the Pacific Ocean. Franny Brock with us from the free press. Franny thanks for checking in. Good luck down the road. Look forward to talking to you into the future. Thanks so much. You got it. She was great. Franny Brock with us, the free press and it's a wonderful story about the heat shields if you are curious. She also has a nice piece about Jared Isaacson as well the head of the new NASA administrator. We're just getting started America at Night back in a moment. From the heart of America this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven Well, you want the head scratcher of the day. Melania Trump calls a news conference and goes out to the podium and gives a denial on her being involved in any way, shape or form with Jeffrey Epstein or the Jeffrey Epstein files and didn't know the man and had no relation with him or Zalene Maxwell and it was a very interesting story. I'm sure you've heard about it as well and it was a thorough repudiation of Jeffrey Epstein in any connection she had to him. The only problem is no one ever said she did. There was no evidence of anybody knowing anything about there was nothing. I mean she's basically like Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton said I didn't know the man. Well, I mean there's pictures of Melania with Jeffrey Epstein but there's no pictures of, I mean she's nobody was questioning she was involved with him in any way, shape or form but yet she denied any ties to him and called for a complete and total investigation and wants all these survivors who want to talk to have their day and to fully testify under oath so their stories can be heard. One of the more bizarre moments in the last couple of months of bizarre moments where the first lady defies her husband and wants a full investigation while his administration saying don't look there's nothing to see here. A bizarre news conference by Melania Trump today. We'll talk about it now on number three open phone calls. Next half hour there's a number of conservative pundits who are calling for President Trump and the 25th amendment which is for him to be taken out of office by his cabinet. It's that's bizarre. We'll talk to a man from the hill who wrote an op-ed piece about that and we'll talk about all that coming up straight ahead. America at night just getting started back in a moment. Hey there. I'm Paula Pan. I help people make the smartest money decisions possible. Do not ever worry about your salary. You need enough to make sure that you aren't in a bad financial position. Once you have that, your salary becomes moot. What matters from that point forward, upside gains. Any type of ownership stake or ownership potential, that's the money. Remember, you're not going to be able to make a living out of it. So that's the money. Remember, you can afford anything, just not everything. Afford anything. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Welcome to America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Busy night tonight. Open phones in hour number three as usual. Also next hour, Bill's on the road. Bill Clevin will check in with him. Plus we're going to talk to a forensic expert about the Gilgo Beach murder and his guilty plea. That's coming up next hour. This half hour though, there's been a growing chorus of conservatives who have been calling for President Trump and the cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment. Marjorie Taylor Greene once a very big Trump ally now invoking calls for the 25th amendment. Candace Owens, a conservative commentator who was very much in Donald Trump's camp. Joe Walsh, former congressman Alex Jones, Adam Kinzinger, Tye Cobb, President Trump's former White House Council. Scott McConnell, the founding editor of the American conservative magazine. And our next guest is Aaron Solomon. He's a chief legal analyst for today's lawyer. He is a opinion writer for The Hill and The Washington Post. Well respected, well grounded in the law. Aaron, welcome to America at Night. Oh, I thought he was here. That was such a great intro. He's not even there. I thought he was there. All right. Well, shoot, what am I going to do? All right, we got Aaron. Aaron Solomon, are you there? Yes, I am McGraw. How are you? Great. How are you? Thanks for joining us tonight. I had a great lead in talking about how there are many conservative voices that are calling for the 25th amendment. I listed many of them, some of them. It's a growing list. You wrote in your op-ed piece on The Hill today about the 25th amendment and President Trump. My first question is what kind of reaction have you gotten since that's been published? What kind of reaction have you gotten? You know, thanks for asking McGraw. It's really funny how news cycles work. You write something and I've got a good relationship with The Hill. I've written many pieces there and they decided to publish exactly, you know, an hour or so after I wrote it and the piece went viral and I don't think that's any necessarily credit to my writing or my political foresight. I just think that I wrote this at a moment that a lot of people were having the exact same question and a lot of us decided to ask it in a public forum. And so the 20... a little bit of a history here. The 25th amendment's in the Constitution and it's set up for the cabinet to come together and to vote out a sitting present. Pretty extraordinary move if it ever happened. It has obviously never happened. There are other mechanisms. There are impeachments, things like that. Why do you think and why are these... We're asking you because I couldn't get the other ones on the show. No disrespect. But what is Donald Trump doing that would invoke people to have a conversation about the 25th amendment? So part of what the 25th amendment does in the Constitution from a legal perspective is allow for removal of a president who is unable to go forward in their duties. A lot of the things that happened over the weekend, for lack of a better word, triggered people to have a conversation. Is this a president who is able to make decisions? One of the things that went also viral in social media was Hillary Clinton back in 2016 saying, you know, this is not someone who you want nuclear codes in their hand. Agree with Hillary or not and I would actually be more... far more in the camp of the latter. This was something that came up because people felt that it was so timely. So yeah, I completely agree that the 25th amendment is an exceptional and extraordinary remedy. It was designed to be that way. And I'm not actually calling necessarily for the 25th amendment. I think a lot of other voices are doing the same thing, but we're simply saying, you know what, of all of the things that are available to keep a president in check, a lot of which haven't worked so far, at least the idea of a bipartisan conversation about whether or not this might be time to think about the 25th amendment is really what's needed today. So I would argue just for argument's sake that we know what we voted on when Donald Trump was president. He's not a conventional politician. He doesn't speak in sort of traditional terms. Some could argue that that was a negotiating ploy and he was just doing his best intimidation to try and get Iran to the table, a.k.a. the madman theory, which is a very legitimate foreign policy theory. And so he was just sort of doing what a president does and he was doing it in his own way. Does that mean he's unfit for the job? For the sake of argument, and I also love to argue and have political discussions, there has to be a line at some point somewhere. So when you have the kind of conversations that President Trump was having in a very public way through Truth Social over the weekend where you're talking about eliminating essentially an entire civilization, we cross the line from a president presidenting to war crimes. And there are a lot of people, and I will include myself in this group, who don't think that President Trump is ever going to get that expense-paid trip to the Hague, mostly for, I think, health reasons. But the reality is presidents aren't supposed to cross that line into the perception of war crimes. They're supposed to do their job as presidents. So for the sake of argument, I'd actually like to ask a question back to you, McGraw, which is, when we think about other Republican presidents in relatively recent history, Reagan, the Bushes, even President Nixon, can we imagine those presidents doing similar things? Because I personally can't, and I've been around long enough to have followed politics for long enough to think that President Trump in the style that you just mentioned is probably the only president that I can imagine crossing the line in the way that he recently has. Absolutely not. I couldn't imagine any former president doing any of the many numerous things Donald Trump has done, has been praised for by the people who have voted for him, and has gotten re-elected by the people, duly elected by the people. They had primaries and presidential knights, and I've seen it all. I've saw him inaugurate. I mean, he won the presidency and they knew what they were getting. And so I agree. It's unconventional. Maybe, has it crossed the line? It's rhetoric. He didn't commit any war crimes. It was rhetoric. And so maybe if he crossed that line, then that's the next conversation. But just rhetoric calls for a conversation about the 25th Amendment? At least in my opinion, when a president says some things that are so remarkably and profoundly unprofessional, and I do agree, part of that remarkably and unprofoundly professional that I'm referencing resonates deeply with his base. But this goes beyond politics and into the law. And if people on both sides of the aisle in Congress feel that this is a president who perhaps has crossed the line and isn't coming back and is in danger of not being able to fulfill his duty, that's kind of why the 25th Amendment exists. And again, I'm only one voice saying, at least we should probably have a discussion about it at some point soon. Nowhere do I say this is the time to invoke the 25th Amendment. That could be very different if you have me on the show a month from now. Who knows? Right. No, sure, I understand it. But there's another interesting part of this and that is the Megyn Kelly's of the world, the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world, the Liz Cheney's of the world. They're not facing the voters anymore. And so they speak very differently than the Republicans in the Congress and in the House who do face the voters. And I know they say things privately that are different. That's been well reported. But publicly they're very much in lockstep with President Trump for a reason. And that's because their base hasn't left Donald Trump. And so I don't know how you can talk about or at one can talk about a 25th Amendment when he still has his base squarely behind him and the Republicans in Congress are very much with him. I agree with you 100%. I don't believe that today the 25th Amendment would be invoked. Again, I'm calling for a conversation about it. It's very interesting because while I was on the waiting room to get into this conversation I went and looked at Essie Cupp's really excellent social media piece from a few hours ago where she was talking about what President Trump wrote about. Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson and all of these people having their low IQs. And I think what you've done is excellent, McGraw. You can put people in two different rooms at this point. People who might have had that macht politic, that power politic in the past. The Tucker Carlson's who are outside of that room as opposed to people who are sitting in positions of power. The vast majority of whom are also thinking about re-election and writing that juice that they get through appealing to President Trump and his base and also practical things like having Trump and his base fund primary fights against them as they seek re-election. So I think in practical rather than lofty theoretical political terms, you're absolutely right on. I do not believe that even if the conversation about the 25th amendment began, that things would go through that way. We may be finding ourselves after the midterms having far more serious conversations about something like impeachment again. But I do think that it's time for a conversation, the kind of conversation that we're having tonight. No, hey, you are welcome on the show anytime. I love this. This is fun for me. And I think the midterms are a big sort of dividing point because if the Republicans end up getting blown out on the midterms, maybe the Republicans start to have a conversation with themselves. Maybe that the MAGA movements over and maybe Donald Trump has played one too many notes and the people are now starting to tire of him and his brand and move on. But I don't think the Republican party moves on until the voters move on. And the voters, even though his poll ratings are down, his base is still very much with him. And the base is not where Tucker Carlson is. The base isn't where Meghan Kelly is. The base is where John Thune is. The base is where um, uh, Lindsey Graham is. The base is where Donald Trump is. There might be some fragment, but the base and his people and his supporters are still very much with Donald Trump. You couldn't be more right, which I think shows us a potential political design flaw, if nothing else. The idea that there are people now who are so firmly in Trump's court and towing the line of the base who are going to flip flop potentially after the midterm elections really shows us something about political rhetoric and how power works. People should be brave enough and again, this is very aspirational. It's not going to happen. People should be brave enough to think that if enough people get together and have the right conversations, maybe you can overcome that hurdle. But what you touched on is absolutely key. This is going to be interesting political history for generations to come. How Trump's base is so solid, no matter what he does. We laughed back a decade ago when people said that, you know, even if President Trump shot somebody in Central Park that it wouldn't change their opinions of him. Yet here we are today in 2026. I once said, and I thought I was going to get in trouble for this and I said it on the radio early on in his first administration. I said that we elected Archie Bunker, president of the United States. And oddly enough, both sides agreed. The liberals were like, yeah, he's Archie Bunker. And the conservatives were like, yeah, he's Archie Bunker. And they, they, right, it's the one thing they agreed on and that the ones who loved him loved Archie Bunker. And the ones that despised him hated Archie Bunker. And it was a weird comparison that they both agreed with. It's a great comparison, but if we think about Archie Bunker, the character in his life, he was extremely solitary. Archie Bunker wasn't surrounded by people who were making him more Archie Bunker-ish. Donald Trump has been surrounded by political colleagues and even former adversaries who spurned him on to become more of the Donald Trump character that began to emerge as far back as the apprentice. So the Donald Trump that you have today is something not only of his own mind and his own creation, but other people saying more of that please. Yeah. Well, you also live in a world where the mayor of New York, Mondami, is more friendly and in a better circle with Trump than Marjorie Taylor Greene is today. Things like that, absolutely amaze me. You know, Trump finds these strange bedfellows and listen, I think that's great. I think it's amazing that the mayor of New York where you would think, can somebody be more of a polar opposite than Trump? This is never ever going to work, including a lot of international leaders as well where they seem to resonate. I think it's great for the president of the United States, any president of the United States to want to work closely with the mayor of New York City, especially if they're a New Yorker, because we know both that the United States and New York City have problems that can probably be mutually worked upon. But trying to guess President Trump's direction and who he's going to get along with is always an interesting game that's not going to change. Yeah, well, and lastly and I'll ask this question and give you the last word. The 25th amendment, it's good conversation, it's good late night dorm room conversation, but regardless of what administration the cabinet is there appointed by the president, I know confirmed by the Senate, but they are loyal to the president and so I could never see cabinet members in Obama's administration, Clinton's administration, unless there is some severe mental capacity of something that's happened, a stroke or God forbid something, where the cabinet wouldn't vote to remove their current sitting president. I agree, but I would also argue that this cabinet is also loyal to power. So if a shift is imminent and imminent that we may not know, the cabinet may be loyal to political power centers that go beyond this current president. We just never know how things are going to play out. That's why following this, you know, we used to follow politics on a weekly basis and a daily basis and honestly, if you go grab a BLT today, you're probably going to miss things in the news cycle. Yeah, no, that's yeah, news cycles last 15 seconds these days. Aaron Solomon is our guest chief legal analyst for today's lawyer. You read him in the Hill and the Washington Post, he has an interesting op-ed piece about the 25th amendment to the Hill and it went viral and there's a lot of people talking about it, so we thought you could get him on and have a nice late night conversation with it. Aaron Solomon, you are always welcome here. Thank you for the conversation. Be safe down the road. Thanks for having me, McGraw. Take care. You got it. America at Night, back in a moment. Live from coast to coast, this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Alright, coming up next hour, we are going to be checking in with a forensic expert to talk about the very disturbing story of the Gilgo Beach murderer, the Gilgo Beach killer played guilty to 8, 7, 8, 7, 7, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl the ocean learned how to body surf at Gilgo beach. And so this one hits a little closer to home. So we're going to talk about that next hour. And then bill Cleveland bill is on the road. He apparently went to the first ever pickleball courts somewhere in Seattle. So we'll have a chance to talk with him about that. We'll leave you with this. The department of justice has opened up an investigation into the NFL. They say they're looking to investigate whether the NFL has engaged in anti competitive tactics amid complaints that watching football has become too expensive. They say that if you wanted to watch all of your games last year you had to pay at least $1,000 to watch all the games. I find that to be hard to believe because the NFL does a pretty good job of giving the hometown team coverage on local over the air market. So this will be interesting. But with all the streaming services and different ways to watch the games, the Thursday night package, the Monday night package, the Sunday night package, the games in London and Europe and everything else. So it'll be interesting to see how this thing turns out. But the justice department opened up an investigation into the NFL. Some more news going on today. They should open up an investigation into why the jets are so bad. But that's a whole other issue. Stay right there. Our executive director is Alex Hinton. Our engineer tonight is Richard Good. I'm a grime mill haven. We're just getting started. This is American night on Westwood one. summer summer summer The Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Howerman has been caught and It's been a 10 year 15 year struggle from the time it began to try and bring him to justice He was caught and yesterday he pled guilty to eight Murdering eight women. He also agreed to do something else. He also agreed in his plea agreement that he would sit with FBI researchers and Doctors so that they could conduct interviews with him to find out what was going on in his brain This has captivated the nation. There have been numerous Documentaries about Rex Howerman who was to call the Gilgo Beach killer and to talk about it We've asked renowned forensic psychologist dr. Catherine Ramzlin to join us doctor. You are an expert to say the least 73 books 1800 articles you even wrote a book Call the unstole Tory of Dennis Raider the BTK killer in which you co-wrote the book with the man himself Oh, I wrote it, but we collaborated He wrote letters and we had phone calls, but I wrote the book. Well, first of all, thank you for joining us tonight Thank you for having me So what do you make of this news that he agreed? To plead guilty to the murders but also to sit with The FBI to be profiled. This is very different than the other Murders who have already been convicted and in jail He's done this before he's even went to trial and much earlier in the process. What do you think that means? Yeah, I think that's interesting I think the FBI is the one that initiated that but the fact that he agreed to it It could be that he wants to control the process. He wants to control the narrative So he's he is happy to have some an audience. Maybe he wants attention There is certainly some evidence in his background that he's somewhat grandiose and controlling and narcissistic So I think a lot of that's going to be at play in this But they will also be able to get a lot of good information. So this is good a good thing for them It seems like a lot of serial killers have a lot of those same traits though It does and there's definitely going to be overlap because he used and killed sex workers And so we have a number of serial killers like that But we but there are going to be interesting things. He had a planning document It was very meticulous and detailed in terms of potential mistakes He might make that he wants to make sure he doesn't ways to prepare His some of the torture fantasies that he had So there there is going to be things that are unique to his case And I think also the fact that he's living in the house of his parents He was an architect with access to many fine contractors and yet his house Had had deteriorators in disheveled shape. So what is that about? Why you know, why is he letting the house of his parents? Well, first of all, he's still living there. So you'll want to know more about that Why did he let it go the way he did? So there are things about his living conditions his family life his upbringing That I think are going to be very unique to him How do you know they're not playing with you? How do you know they're just not telling you what you want to hear? Well, they have an interview with him But I think someone from France did that that was circulating, you know, since his arrest So they have some baseline behavior. That's that's typically how you look at it You want baseline behavior and then you watch behavior that deviates from that that that's indicative of deception or manipulation And it'll be a long process It's not going to be one interview. It's going to be over a period of time with multiple different subjects and Probably teams of interviewers getting different types of information So you collect it as much as you can you look for inconsistencies you look for gaps you look for contradictions And and through that you find Certainly elements of truth. He will probably lie. He will probably manipulate evade but if you have very skilled and Interrogators they're going to get things and they may get more deaths. They may get more murders Do you talk to family members? Do you talk to friends co-workers? Absolutely? Yeah, that's and and co-workers Have given a lot of interviews and the family his wife and kids had that peacock Documentary that they did so there's information there So it but the co-workers did talk a lot and his clients too So they have and and also some of the women that he dated who survives have given interviews So you have a lot of information going in Do you find these killers? Want to talk in in other words they want you to understand their mindset Some do I know some who don't We're very resistant But some do want that once once they're caught once that you know clearly you got me now They want to say it as much as they can and in part that's about controlling the narrative They want to make sure that that people think of them the way they want to be thought of and so that's going to Influence the kinds of information they give out Yeah, everybody wants to know why is it is it really a fool's errand to try and sit with these people Who've done these terrible terrible things and somehow figure out the real reason why? It's not a fool's errand because we do learn a lot of things about their background that can help us with prevention and predictions and troubled kids So there's a lot of important information we get also it's possible He hasn't confessed to everything so we may get more information about that and also About other people's murders cold cases So I think they're gonna come at him with a lot of different agendas and get what they can and depending on how Talkative he is that might that may be very valuable. Yeah, what about? the The manipulation in the court you talk about that for a minute because you said that that he has been trying to Manipulate the process from the from the very beginning since since he got caught. What do you mean by that? Well, just that he's a manipulative person, but he hasn't really said very much I mean he he hasn't my given interviews or anything You know compare him to someone like Jodi Arias for example who once she realized they were on to her She was giving media interviews to try to get people on her side and to you know present her Her side of the story. He has not done that And I'm not sure what his motivation is in the plea. He said it's you know for his family and the victims families But I don't know maybe he's shielding something else that we that he doesn't want anyone to know about What are some of the similarities between serial killers? I mean, obviously they're all not the same but there's got to be some Threads that are somewhat similar in in many of them Well, there are but you have a lot of different types So he's not a mission driven serial killer. For example, he's a sexually compelled serial killer So he'll have things in common with others like that like Dennis Raider the btk killer They have a lot of things in common in terms of their driving motivations and their fantasy life and Things like that But you know serial killer the definition is really about The fact that you've killed at least two people on two occasions. So it's a description of a behavior It doesn't really give you any any more about their nature or their You know motivations or you know used for some time ago It used to be about having a cooling off period and you know It was more complicated, but it's a very simple definition these days if you go with the FBI So really trying to group them all we have over five thousand documented. You can't really group them all As if it's a criminal type because it isn't But this one was hard to solve Worthy well that was partly because that was partly because of the corruption in the original task force So there was somebody who was blocking a lot of efforts that were keeping the FBI out so So it's hard to say how hard it was Without you know recognizing that there were were people in early in the process who were who could have moved it along who did not Yeah, no, that's we don't know why Yeah, that's a that's a well documented point that that there was um much uh, it wasn't the best police work, uh at the beginning of this but but ultimately They got the right person there and he re re emphasized it and re uh reengaged and they they finally got rex haramond but my question is When you when they were if they could have profiled him with the information they knew Are you surprised it was somebody like rex haramond or With your expertise is that would he have fit the profile of somebody you were looking at before he was known? Well profiling comes from victimology. That's the first thing you're looking at the victims And there's a lot of similarities among them. They were all petite Women who were sex workers. So you're looking at that the way they were Handled the way they were the body dump sites. So that's where the profile comes from. It's not a it's not a blueprint Against which you measure anybody. So it doesn't surprise me because I I'm Work every single day on cases that are About these people who live double lives who seem to be normal passing them You know among us and yet they have these This fantasy life about killing people about torture He had he had a lot of torture pornography He had a lot of plans and This planning document as I mentioned he thought about himself as a serial killer He studied other serial killers and the and the kinds of mistakes they made So he's he doesn't surprise me not really. Yeah, what is it? This is always fascinating to me because people have difficult relationships with their father With their mother to go on to lead productive lives and sometimes they have issues with their father their mother their home life Their upbringing and they become serial killers What what's the snap point? What's what's the fulcrum? Why do one go some way and and some go the other way? I can't give you a generic answer to that because each case is its own Uh trajectory We don't know where he started to think about becoming a serial killer as opposed to how Demiserator did or Ted Bundy did or John Wayne Gates. He did So that's a really complex question. It certainly has something I can can just give you in a nutshell But your book about the btk killer at some point he went one way instead of the other way Yeah, and I can show how he built up these fantasies from his adolescence And began to identify with serial killers as he was reading about them in true detective magazines And then had some disappointments and some humiliations that added to that So you you looking at a whole Life journey essentially as to how this developed for him. He didn't have abuse in his background Or neglect really of any kind so he didn't have any of the typical things that you would think of He's an outlier to the formulas and yet it happened. So I spent time showing all the different Influences that went into this process until it reached a tipping point And he started with burglaries and then he tried Abducting somebody and that didn't work out. So there there are all these starts and stops in his trajectory to becoming a serial killer and and then the tipping point I think was the loss of a job that he really liked at Cessna and then feeling bored and and Putting those fantasies in place. He already had developed a hit kit and thought of himself in these ways so that's going to be very different from Uh, what we have was Rex Hirman. It's very different from how Ted Bundy developed So, you know, it's hard for me to give you a general sense of them They also though they they they pop in and out right the the btk killer and this rex haramon Uh, they would kill and then there would be a long period between the next one. So it wasn't constant. It was Long periods of time between the the the well, we we know that about Raider we don't yet know that about Hirman because We don't know if there were others that he hasn't yet admitted to We we only know a timeline of you know, we've got 1993 96 You know, whatever but we don't know if there might be some others and I wouldn't want to State that about him at this soon not until that they've had a chance to really talk with him Catherine rams lent dr. Catherine rams land is a renowned forensic psychologist. She wrote the book on Confessions of a serial killer the untold story of Dennis Raider the btk killer Which you used him as a resource to write the book fascinating study doctor. I appreciate what you do I'm interested in it, but god love you. I could never do what you do But but but thank you for spending a couple minutes with us tonight Well, I appreciate being here. Thanks for having me. You got it renowned forensic psychologist Dr. Catherine rams land on the long-own serial killer pleading guilty yesterday and allowing the fbi Profilers to now investigate him as part of that plea deal america at night back in a moment America at night with mcgrom mill haven All right, it's uh thursday night and every thursday night when i'm not suffering from a sinus infection We check in with bill clevin. He uh got a week off last week So we expect you bill clevin to be doubly good this week bill clevin either. Oh, no wait. Oh, we got him I don't know what he's doing. He's just trying to get rid of the Bill clevin to be doubly good this week bill clevin either. Oh, no wait. Oh, we got him No, I'm sorry. We do not have bill clevin. That's uh next segment. I'm sorry. I apologize my um my sinus infection for those who care Uh is better my timing is not better though from the text line Bill the traveler reminds me of clark glif glif griswold with his travel stories the one about getting locked out of his hotel room weeks ago Was hilarious. Yes, it was hilarious Um, you know what else is hilarious? Uh rory mackleroy five under At the masters today. Yeah, I watched quite a bit of it, but I watched it on amazon Um, if you remember years ago fox tried to make a bid for the rights to the uh to the masters and they were laughed out And cbs has had it forever and that thursday fridays have usually been on uh, sometimes a bit on espn, I guess Um, but it's been the cbs crew that's been doing it today Unless I did it wrong. It was on amazon it'll be on amazon again tomorrow Uh, you were able different announcers. It was fine Coverage, it was fine. Um, but there were different announcers But you could follow amen corner. You could follow the featured groups I watched quite a bit of it also took a big fat nap in the middle of it too, which is Great about watching golf, but rory trying to defend his title from last year Is tied with the lead at five under 67 Patrick reeds on minus three jason dais at minus three justin rosa at minus three zander schaffler is minus two Uh scotty schaffler is that uh minus two I believe So, um Yeah, it was a pretty good day. I'm kind of rooting for rory. I like to see back to back Guys had a couple of blow-ups there. I'd like to see him win back to back All right, we got a break bill on the road next america at night right back in a moment Hey, sainsbury's we get through so many snacks have you got anything to help me save? Well, we're always matching and lowering prices So hundreds of sainsbury's fresh fruit veg and everyday products are price matched to aldi and every week with netta You can save money on thousands of the products your family loves So you can snack away knowing you're saving money sainsbury's good food for all of us selected products Aldi price match not in ni netta prices require netta recant terms at sainsbury's dot co dot uk slash aldi price match and netta dot com slash prices terms You Join the nightly conversation america at night With macron mill haven all right. Let's try this again bill on the road joins us every thursday Except on nights when i'm suffering from a sinus infection. So we missed last week So bill clever and you better be twice as good this week since you were off last week Oh boy, i'm in big trouble then You want to call somebody else? Uh, you uh, you made it to the text line uh, dug in wisconsin text in bill the traveler reminds me of clark griswald and his travel stories The one about getting locked at his hotel room weeks ago has me still laughing so Bill in wisconsin is a fan of yours Just here for the pleasure of all of your listeners. That's that was actually i told you i don't i don't I don't put my grandma on the roof of the car though. Okay, so anybody's wondering All right fair enough. So uh, you went to visit the birthplace of pickleball Yeah, so i don't i don't know if you know this but i've been playing pickleball Um for i don't know maybe 15 years something like that And and when i first started playing pickleball, no one knew what the heck pickleball was and you go to you know a tennis court and Chalk down some lines and then you somebody would bring along like a weight or something but like pull down on the on the tennis net which i'm sure the tennis players loved and uh, and you'd play Pickleball and so i've been playing for a really long time and so now as i look and you know, i see just it's so crazy There's you know, they're making movies about pickleball and it's all kinds of it's not as older people playing you get young people I mean it's just crazy to see what it's grown into and so I mentioned that i played pickleball today, and i thought you know i'm gonna talk to macaw about The birthplace of pickleball. I don't know if you play or you know anything about it But um, it's a pretty interesting story. All right. Well, hold on a second. Why 15 years ago before it was a thing Did you get into pickleball? Well, i was a former badminton player and so i love yeah, i love playing badminton I play with a group on uh friday nights and uh one night somebody brought in a a pickleball net and um and we started playing pickleball for you know, maybe 30 minutes before we started playing badminton And then eventually as the weeks went on more and more people started going down to the other end of the gym and were playing pickleball and Fewer and fewer people were playing badminton to the point where we had no more badminton players And um, and that's kind of how i got into it, but a lot of people don't know my brother pickleball has been around since 1965 It has been around a long time and um, it all goes back to Bainbridge island Washington, so this is an island that is about I would say a 20 30 minute ferry ride from seattle um, and so you take the ferry you go over there and uh, I actually got to play pickleball on the original Pickleball courts, which to me was kind of cool. Um, but but the story kind of goes back in 1965. There were these three Gentlemen, it was bill bell Barney mccallum and joel pritchard and these were guys that lived on the island and uh, they would I believe it would have been in summertime when they would you know be hanging out there And they'd have their families and they liked playing badminton and so they rigged up this badminton court Just like an asphalt surface outside of um, one of the guys homes They'll kind of live nearby and um, and so they'd come over and they'd you know, they would play badminton in the summer Well one summer it would have been 1965 that they they went back to the house there and they couldn't find the badminton equipment and and so what they had was they had a net and uh, they had a whiffle ball And one of the guys went in the garage and had some old plywood or something like that and and cut out Some paddles, okay, and so they kind of made up their own game right there on what used to be their badminton Court and then what happened was you know, they kind of would make up all these rules and then other people around the neighborhood and eventually around the island started playing this game of tickle ball and In the 70s early 70s what they did was they they packaged this game for schools like for uh, pe for you know gym class and I was told I actually played tickle ball when I was in you know, like third grade or something like that but I don't remember and so Pliazo it started in the gym classes and then probably I would say mid 90s something like that it really kind of took off in um, the senior citizen communities if you will and uh, and it's just grown and grown and grown So yeah now when you look out on the courts, you know, I always get because when I started playing the girl I was playing with people who were you know, good god 20 30 years older than me I was really the young guy out there and now if you go to you know, pretty much any city park in the country You're gonna see a lot of young people playing pickleball too. So it's it's become very very popular All right, hold on a second here. I thought it was just like tennis the same rules as tennis but just a different ball and a different racket No, so it's a it's a combination if I had to explain it I would say it's a combination of tennis ping pong And badminton of those three sports tennis is actually would be like number third on the way It's actually closer to ping pong than it is to tennis and so yeah It's kind of funny because I will play with a lot of former Tennis players and you can always tell when a tennis player is playing because they go through all the motions the way a tennis player would It's like no no it is a different sport and once they figure it out. They're usually very good players And so um, so yeah, so it's closer to I would say Like you're standing on a gigantic ping pong table A lot of uh, just those those ping pong type shots back and forth if you're playing correctly What why do they call it pickleball the ball's not a pickle the pickles not round So this is something that uh, when when I first heard this the the story was That it was named after the dog that the that couple That one of the couples owned that that you know one of the inventors owned And so the ball apparently would you know go away and their dog who was named pickles would chase after it And initially I said oh that's stupid at the it's a cute story But it can't possibly be real but then I went to bainbridge island and I started talking to people that Knew these guys and actually really knew the story and they said no it actually is true when it first started It didn't have a name They did just something that they played and then the dog came around a couple of years after they had invented their little game And would would chase after the ball and the dog was named pickles. So they called it Uh pickleball How do you score is it was at one point? Is it 15? Is it 30 love? How does that work? Oh, my god, this is this is the this is the toughest most convoluted part of pickleball If you have to try to teach a new player how to play pickleball Scoring will absolutely drive you insane. You play to 11 But it is I I can't even explain it to you over the phone how to how to do pickle how to how to score But but essentially what happens is uh, you you one team usually you play doubles, right? So one team will serve and they get they get one opportunity to score a point And then the other team gets to play but but both players then get to serve and then you know It'll come back and then both players, but on the first serve. It's just one Uh one person so it it is very tough just to show how to how to Do you have to serve to score do you have to serve to score? Like like in the old volleyball rules Correct. You have to be serving I I do play occasionally with some groups that do what we call rally scoring which kind of feeds up the game Yeah, and for anybody listening that plays pickleball That's a great if you're if you're in a group where you really don't like some of the people that are playing Do that rally scoring and then the games go super quick and then you can get on to the next game But yeah, so you you can do either way, but most people do The original scoring interesting now the controversy is There's a lot of controversy with it is too, isn't there? Well, I mean There's controversy with any anything that's growing as rapidly pickleball I believe is still the fastest growing sport in the united states. It's the numbers are I mean, I'm telling you I've been playing this so long. I mean, I'm serious. No one knew what pickleball was I would tell people I'd play pickleball and they would look at me like I had three heads Like, you know, what what you do what and and now it's it's everywhere And I'll be honest McGrath There are a lot of days when I'll go to a park or I'll go whatever and meet up with some friends and play and I wish Nobody knew about it I wish it was like the old days. I don't even mind putting some chalk down on a tennis court to play I just it's gotten kind of crazy and I mean you've seen there's a either there's a movie coming out or about to come out I think Ben Stiller might be in it And there's you know, there's professional pickleball and there's it's just it's crazy now, but I don't I don't know what their controversy You mean Well, I've heard that like the ping of the ball with the racket drive neighborhoods crazy apartment complex is crazy and you can't play it after nine o'clock and the pickleballers want to go all night And the people are trying to sleep and all that's okay. I know it's okay. I know I know what you're talking about now Yeah, so a couple of things so first first of all it is a paddle It is not a racket a pickleball player any pickleball players listening now are screaming at the radio Give them a break folks. Give them a break. It's it's called a paddle. You call it a paddle The sound yes, so the sound can be really annoying if you do not play pickleball or you're not around pickleball They are working on some pickleballs that are less noisy Um But seriously the demand for courts is so huge all over the country that some of these Municipalities are putting courts in without kind of thinking where they go So you really don't want to put new pickleball ball courts in you know Really close to someone to a subdivision where someone's going to hear it You know late at night because it's it is much louder than tennis. I mean you don't really hear anything with you know tennis other than somebody grunting I suppose And so yeah, so that is the controversy, but you know, they're they're working on it. They're working Now when you played on this on this on this court, did you play or did you just look at it? Is it Is it can you wrecked it? Did you play a game? What happened? Yeah, so it's on it's on private property. The the family still owns That that property but and to be honest so again, this was 1965 So the if folks go to bill on the road.com just type in pickleball In the search bar and and you'll see a story that I did where you see photos of the court So, you know, there's tree roots growing underneath it There's a I mean other than nostalgia you can't really play a serious game of of pickleball on this court It's just kind of cool to see where it all started and and the other thing that's neat. There's a really Bainbridge island is beautiful Really cool main street great restaurants just a neat neat place And they have a really cool local history museum and in the museum they saved, you know, the original Pickleball paddles, so it's kind of cool, especially again if you're a player and you you know, you've gone to dick sporting goods or wherever you You know buy sporting good stuff you see now there's 200 different types of paddles you could buy Well, it's pretty neat to see the original ones like it was just hard heavy plywood That people use back in the day and so they have some of those at the museum, which is kind of cool So who were some of the famed pickleball players outside of bill cleveland? I mean, who's the who's the who's the babe ruth or the lou garig of pickleball? There's so I I'm probably not the best person to ask because I I will be completely honest with I think it is incredibly boring to watch somebody else play pickleball And I have friends that love it. Oh, they watch it on tv or they'll go to you know There's going to be one in the st. Louis area and this is not meant to disparage anybody but um in the st. Louis area and throughout the midwest they do these um professional pickleball events and they bring in the the pro Players to play and you know, they'll buy tickets and I think why who I just I cannot It is so boring to me to sit and watch somebody else play pickleball Um, but those who do would say probably there's a gentleman named ben johns. Who's is very well known? Um, there's a girl. I can't think of her name. She started playing with her mother Um, somebody listening will know the name of this gal. She's she's incredibly talented and it is amazing to watch her play But she's very young. I mean, she's like 19 or something like maybe 20 and she didn't play as and she was you know, like a teenager And and she's getting you know sports deals and and things like that But you know between you and me and everybody listening, you know, I don't know Is there a michael jackson of pickleball? No, nobody had famous and pickleball You mean you mean michael jordan. That's what you mean michael jackson. Well, I I really did mean michael jackson But michael jordan makes more sense Okay, so lastly lastly bill clevin bill on the road this story, uh charlie kerks long time mentor This guy jeff web 76 years old recently died while playing pickleball. You're gonna start wearing helmets now Uh, well, so I wear eye protection always wear eye protection had an optometrist. Tell me that always wear I didn't but a bad bad bitten as well Look, here's the deal. I have a friend of mine. She's a chiropractor Shout out her name's a her name. No joke is anna bone b o n e. She's a chiropractor She she told me not too long ago She said she is seen more and more and more people come in From injuries from pickleball into her her clinic and I think that's all over the country So, you know, come on people stretch out a little bit Yeah, this guy this guy this guy was was going back for a ball fell over and hit his head and died So, I mean, it's it's You know, I mean might not be a bad idea to wear a helmet I Don't know if I'd wear a helmet But that is one of the things like I used to this you'll make fun of me for this But I actually used to teach pickleball Uh, and just just you know kind of the the rules and at a local park and um And the one of the first things that I would always tell people is you cannot run Backwards for a ball. It is never going to end well for you And so there's there's a little strategy in ways other ways you can do it, but yeah, it's dangerous if you if you do that Bill on the road. You don't play. I'm surprised. You know, I with so many things going on. I I got a five year old I can't be playing pickleball uh any um, I got about a minute left any um Any book signings with your presidential road trip book? I will be in uh, Colombia, uh, Missouri coming up next week as well as jefferson city, missouri the uh, capital On uh, tuesday and wednesday of this coming week So if you got any listeners that are in jeff city or Columbia just go to billontheroad.com click on book tour and you can get all the particulars there There you go bill on the road bill clever and every thursday night. You know what? You made up for not being on last week. I appreciate that good stuff Maybe I'll take next week off too. Oh, there you go bill on the road bill on the road dot com bill clever Thanks for checking in be safe and uh, we'll talk to you next week Okay, sounds good to you. You got it bill on the road pickleball. Who knew america at night back in a moment From the heart of america. This is america at night with macron mill haven So From the text line Tonight's host stinks. That's not very nice. Uh pickleball is still a racket. How about this one? I love badman I also agree. It's great. Not sure pickleball is that much fun. I also play racquetball good to know Tim in north carolina texan. Did you get a chance to check out oingo boingo song skin? No, I didn't Here's another one that tony guy always calls love that dude. You're awesome All right, good and this one from minnesota curb. Your enthusiasm is far better than seinfeld Also arrested development better than seinfeld I don't know kerbs good Very good. It's not seinfeld. That's a whole other issue. All right. Stay right there. It's open phones Next hour and if you want you can sign up for our text our daily text Alex will send you text you our daily lineup. All you have to do is text in Your name and number 1 8 4 4 2 magra 1 8 4 4 2 6 2 47 29 door text line You can certainly give us a text and Alex will send you back a link so we can sign up for the daily text And you can keep a rest of what's going on each and every night with the show our executive director is alex hinton Our engineer tonight is richard good open phones next hour I'm agrar millhaven. This is america at night on westwood one Westwood one presents america at night Here's your host the grom millhaven In uh january Some unknown trader made a bet on poly market that uh, nicholas maduro would soon be out As venezuelan as venezuelan's leader less than five hours before the capture the wager on poly market netted more than $400,000 clearly an inside job Israel arrested several people including an army reservist for allegedly using classified information to place bets on israel military operations This has been an ongoing story now more than $760 million worth of oil future contracts changed hands in less than two minutes According to the dow jones market data more recently three accounts on poly market earned more than 600,000 By correctly betting on the timing of this week's iranian ceasefire Somebody's making some money. There is no evidence Of who it is or where it's coming from However, the trump administration confirmed today That they wrote a staff wide memo from the white house management office uh saying that You should not Improperly be leveraging your information to make bets on calci or poly markets The white house confirmed that yes, they did write that memo Hmm really interesting. All right, welcome back American night It's open phones. Whatever you want to talk about the hour is yours. We love going rogue. We love texts texture comments 18442 magrav 18442 62 47 29 We talked about a number of things uh today including This splash down tomorrow of the um of the orion spacecraft is After talking to the investigative reporter from the free press I read that story. I don't know was earlier this week and asked her on the show because There are some people who who know a thing or two about this stuff who's a little concerned Who's just holding their breath saying little prayer? Hopefully the four astronauts can get back down to earth So we can talk about that Uh, we talked about uh trump and many people invoking the 25th amendment many of his own His old former supporters We talked to the forensic scientist about the rex harrowman The gilgo beach killer bill on the road. We have busy night tonight But the hour is yours. Whatever you want to talk about 18442 magrav 18442 62 47 29 it's open phones. It's open texts Pinky in upstate new york pinky. Welcome to america at night Hey, how are you your show is so great? um I I have been playing racket ball for probably 25 years And I would go and rent a court and I would play three hours by myself In the last time I went there was this Creepy guy watching the whole time. So I went out to get water And he was playing pickleball And he said oh, you think you're pretty good, huh? And he said do you want to play pickleball? I said, well, I'll tell you what let's play racket ball first And then if you win, I promise I'll play pickleball so He came on my court And he was all huffy and everything I let him have two points And um, then I wiped him up and when it was over He came up to me and he said Well, you think you're hot. Don't you I said look just give me the ball because now it's my serve because you lost He brought his racket down Slam me and broke my finger That's not very nice That's the way a lot of people that Do the racket ball the pickleball they take it so seriously and yeah Nasty and yell at each other. So it was worth the broken finger Well, I would think if you're nasty and mean spirited in you know everything you do I think you just carry that on to whatever sport you're involved in Absolutely. Yeah, they're just not there's not not nice people and they're mean spirited and they're angry and they've got You know, so they're just out to like Like that You you guys are great. You really are pink. You have yourself a good night. Thanks for checking in as always Thanks from the you got from the text line uh tim In uh, where's tim from tim is from washington state. It was nancy pelosi on the bet You know funny you mentioned that I was watching the news tonight And I can't remember where I saw it, but do you know who tim berkitt is tim berkitt is a republican congressman from, uh, tennessee Uh, I believe he's part of the freedom caucus uh part of the uh extreme right wing I like the guy Um, because I see him a lot. He he's interviewed a lot and um, I don't know I I don't know. I I like his disposition. He just seems a little like a very likable man Saw him today in front of a podium Talking about, um, the quote-unquote insider trading going on congress And how the the congress is robbing america blind And this is tim berkitt republican from tennessee second congressional district who is A freedom caucus member and he said and a paraphrasing here. He said everyone talks about nancy pelosi He said nancy pelosi isn't even in the top 10 violators So tim berkitt freedom caucus member everyone loves to pick on nancy pelosi is using some insider information to make some tremendous stock picks and I don't know, uh It's never been brought up on charges, but When you have a freedom caucus member saying that she's not the worst offender Uh, that's saying something so Somebody's using some insider information. I don't know who it is, but the whole thing's pretty creepy that you're making money hundreds of thousands of dollars on our military on inside information on what our our military is doing um Placing a bet on our military's head That's pretty disturbing and pretty embarrassing. So I hope they find the person who's doing it. Can't believe it's legal Can't believe it's ethical can't believe it's moral But to bet on the american military To make to profit off of the american military um I I would be pretty embarrassed if it ever I I clearly i'm not but I would be mortified. Let's put it that way Uh, if it was Anybody I was associated with I'd be I'd be mortified I don't care what letter you have next to your name. I don't care what party you're affiliated with but If if you're using insider information because of your closeness to power to make money off military engagements and Our soldiers risking their lives You're a pretty despicable human being Uh, what are you gonna do? We're gonna go back to phones. We got uh mac in organ mac. Welcome to american night Uh, mcgrawl. I want to ask you some questions about new york baseball. Now. You said you were a mess Yeah, and yes, it's kind of amazing to me that somebody It's great in new york given the yankees and all their great history becomes a mess fan But so if you could explain that and and explain to me in general, how does that separate if you're From new york who are fans who are mess fans? Are there more yankees than mess or are they you follow both? And it is different leagues so you it mac it is it is such a great question that i've gotten a number of times throughout Let me hang up so I can listen to you. Okay, you gotcha. I will answer that that question for you and here is mac Thanks for the phone call. Um, it's really interesting. I work with somebody Uh, who's from st. Louis who peppers me all the time because a lot of times when you live in a town with one baseball team It's hard to grasp having two baseball teams. So the best way I can explain it to you is My mother was a yankee fan My father was a met fan, which is one of a million reasons why the marriage never worked. Okay When I was a little boy She would take me only to yankee games But she didn't want to travel to the bronx So she only took many yankee games in the summer that the yankees played at shea stadium When they were renovating yankee stadium. So she took me to she took me maybe six or seven or eight games that year My father Would take me to med games and he would always take me to med games And his father was a new york giants fan so He was a he was a mets fan because his father was a new york giants fan Who knows why my mother was a yankee fan? I think she liked joe demaggio I think she liked the the mickey manals of the world the joe deez of the world She was sort of into that sort of swagger and sort of macho man kind of thing Um, but I think I became a met fan because one My father was a met fan Two there was a player named tug maghra Uh, who was playing for the mets at the time who's tim maghra's dad Um, and so if my first name's maghra and his last name's maghra, there was a natural connection there So I think it was my father was a met fan because his father was a nasa league fan And so that's how it works now in terms of The yankees and I don't mean any disrespect to the yankees when I say this And I don't think I speak for all new york met fans but The yankees growing up as a met fan on long island The yankees could have been like the san diego padres. I knew they were there. They might have had a player or two. I liked But But I just didn't follow him I if there was a story I'd read the post every day the daily news every day news day every day And if there was a story about the yankees, you know, I'd look at the headline whatever Steinbrenner was off doing something. You know, I didn't really pay attention to it Uh, if I wanted to know if the mets one I'd watch the local news and they'd cover Steinbrenner So I'd sort of hear it and I knew he was crazy and firing all these managers and stuff But that wasn't my team. So it was like the san diego padres. I just didn't care So it was it was very strange now You're a mets fan, which probably means you're a jets fan Which probably means you're an islander fan. So that's the sort of lineage. There aren't too many met fans And then giant fans, right the mets and the jets played a che the yankees played it Or the giants played at yankee stadium. So usually now that's not always true But that's a good rule of thumb if you're a yankee fan, you're a giants fan if you're a mets fan, you're a jets fan I hope that sort of gives you a little insight into the bizarre world that I was raised in Good question though. Appreciate it. Go on rogue america night back in a moment What's on your mind call 8442 mcgroth and be a part of america at night with mcgroth mil haven Ready to launch your business get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs Shopify is specially designed to help you start run and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand Marketing tools that get your products out there integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online In person and on the go Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you sign up for your one dollar a month trial at shopify.com slash setup So Welcome back to america at night Call now 8442 6247 29 that's 8442 mcgroth Call or text and by the way never screened calls never will we'll get to all that in a second from the text line from the 314 Glad you're feeling better. Your voice is sounding so much better. Thank you Still on the mend had a wicked wicked sinus infection Matter of fact on the break. I just took a shot of honey and uh squizz little lemon in the mouth to get me through Let's go to denis in canada kit denis. Hello. Welcome to america at night Hi, how you doing? How are you good? You were just speaking about the the insider trading And um, I want to know did you watch the state of the union? I did watch the state of the union Yeah, did you notice that democrats didn't stand up for anything and it was terrible that they didn't know poured anybody for anything But they did stand all of them stood for that you were gonna do something about the insider trading They all stood up in a port for that Yeah, sure there you are Yeah, right I never heard anybody speak about why why would they all stand up for that? But you know the the poor kids that were traumatized and they didn't stand up for no that but the insider trading They all stood up and applauded. Well, first of all, it's politics. It's the state of the union So, you know one side can stand up. So that's that's normal politics But they all stood up You know why because everyone's watching because you can't you have to stand and says we're gonna ban insider trading I'll bet you a nickel. I'll go on poly market right now and bet that they don't Do anything to fix the insider trading and all that shenanigans going on in in washington I'll bet you a dollar Yeah, I just felt that it was kind of very very strange what they didn't stand for nothing except for the insider trading But anyway, that's a great time. You got it. Thanks to the phone call Dennis. No, of course I mean, that's the that's the thing that kills me Is that um, it's uh, they're not there um They're not there to do the people's work. They're there to play the game And oftentimes they enrich themselves and we sit here and argue with each other and fight with each other While they're robbing us blind in washington dc I don't get it. I don't I don't play that game. I don't get into that. I don't play the liberal conservative I think they're all crooked. So I I don't really have I don't carry the water for either party because I don't really trust them and I don't really trust anybody these days As I say when I get up in the morning, I check my driver's license to make sure it's me because I don't even trust myself Um, thanks for the phone call. Let's go to um, let's go to scott and st. Louis scott. Welcome to america at night Yeah, um yeah Trump he he told uh bb To not drop as many bombs on uh on levin on And uh, the I I guess that's because well the sultan of a sultan in oman Says that the um The street is closed so, you know I guess that's why he's telling bb not to drop so many bombs So that they will open the street. I mean Basically, they got him by the go maps Well, look, it's clearly israel and the united states were not on the same page So clearly somebody didn't get the memo or somebody agreed to something the other one didn't agree to And so who knows, you know, we'll have to wait for the history books to to find out But israel keeps bombing lebanon. Trump's now telling net and yahoo to hey lay off lebanon I'm trying to get a peace deal over here net and yahoo talked trump into doing this thing um, so You know right now trump's trump's trying it trump's trying to find an off ramp and net and yahoo ain't helping and um, that's sort of where we are trump's now back to threatening everybody everywhere every place He wants the straight open, but it's I don't know if it's ever really been open this story I read when did this peace deal come down on tuesday, I guess um And the day after the peace deal less boats went through that day than had gone through the week before so You know again, we're in no man's land here. We have a ceasefire which apparently in name only because um, You know, can you have a ceasefire when there are bombs still dropping? You know the whole thing's a mess And we'll just have to wait and see scott. Thanks for the phone call music says I got a break from the bottom of the hour Uh, tony david kathryn paul. We got a couple lines open for you as well Not to mention the text line. We got some text coming in too. Um text and call 18442 magrav 1844262 47 29 america at night back in a moment. This is america at night with magram millhaven So So So America at night is also a podcast you can now listen to your favorite episodes wherever podcasts can be found Yes, don't forget about the podcast don't forget about the phone calls and the text 18442 magrav 1844 262 47 29 a couple of texts we got in Hey, you are becoming one of the best out there. Thank you so much for what you do each and every night. Thank you That's from uh western new york and then this one is from uh, illinois the ceasefire only benefits the proven untrust untrustworthiness Of iran they get richer and keep control of the straight and why is the world allowing iran to act Like pirates and take two million bucks from each ship and oman gets half of that. It's a great question Here's another one. How can anyone at nasa allow the artemist to to leave earth without Uh with un perfected heat shields. I can still relive in my mind the challenger explosion that was due to the heat shield They put humans in harm's way and send them off with heat shield problems not yet solved Yeah, no, that's um They they approved it. So we'll see um, but yeah, no, there's not that there's any Current issues with the heat shields, but there were some questions going into whether or not They held up the last time the artemists went up and came down. So We'll see just keep a good thought for the astronauts as they splash down tomorrow night and Yeah, I think the heat shields is still a problem apparently. Let's go to joe in uh, arkansas joe. Welcome to america night monger Uh, I came in late one night when after you'd had uh john bolton on and you had a bunch of people harassing you about that now I I I want to hear from Everybody even war hawks like bolton. I don't think that he would even go as far as trump has went with this uh this war here I talked to people at swap meets car shows all the time and they're starting up again Everybody in the mid south down here Is like me three times voted for trump was on the trump train and And now meeting everybody at the caboose. I grabbed ahold of back rail till I found a place and I jumped off So you were no hold on a second. You are no longer supporting trump Well, you know, I don't know who we're gonna vote for but I I just cannot take a guy That uh, I don't know if it's maybe his parents Spared to rod and spoiled the child and that never told him no he gets upset when somebody says no That's not how I was raised and I thought he uh, was going to work out better than what he is because He does not read the bible or the constitution or take any advice From generals or anybody and he is making a hole. He's not going to be able to get out of here And uh, especially things those simple things like the penny. He has no authority article one section eight Congress will coin money and regulate the value there of he don't even pay attention and stuff like that. So Down here, it's kind of messed things up. So everybody's doing the rounding thing and are rounding all the prices And it's just irritating. Uh, you know, um, but about every other thing thing he does He can't declare war but yet he's just going to do what he wants Uh, what do you think of him tearing down the east wing of the white house? Oh, what a waste You know at a time when uh, elan was doing so good 1.2 trillion dollars saved I wouldn't be surprised if that ain't one of the reasons They got into it and at the same time the big beautiful stupid bill He uh, uh, that's three to five trillion You know, and so he was just Spending his wheels there, but hold on a second joe. You you knew you knew he didn't read the bible You knew he wasn't a big constitutional lawyer. You knew he wasn't a great scholarly thinker He was a bombastic bomb throwing populist I mean you kind of knew that going in that I I guess I was uh, a little hopeful for uh, you know god to be working with him and and and cause him to repent You know, I I I called white house, you know, I used to get calls from aides back Um, usually on certain issues and I called on the day before the national day of prayer I said it is time this country is so messed up for you to declare a national day of repentance national repentance and invoke second chronicles 714 and we know he's not going to call me but Hey, how about an aide would you call him back and tell me what the chances are? Never heard a word about it. Not even from the ministers all over so, you know, um Yeah, I guess I knew but I just had had some hope that maybe we wouldn't have to go through the hell We're gonna go through and it's on its way. I'll tell you what yes The people of iran they have something in common with george washington and his men They have an incredible will to fight And god prophesied that I said the sons of hagar would be a wild men Raising their hand to all men In war even their own and another thing what trump is unaware of is the israelis do it the jews and The the moslems do it. They take the uh, cold nedrid every every year And that lets them off the hook with any deals with the infidel or the as the jews call us the um Uh, the human cattle or the uh, goyam Now, let me ask you joe joe joe. I gotta move on but real quick. You're telling me that you Feel this way and many of your friends in your in your in your sphere feel this way You see a lot of your friends jumping off the trump trump train Oh, the mid south is really bad and that's where you know, it's just a different way of thinking down through here By the way, yes, by the way, these are the people we're missing some good colors down yonder carolina's louisiana because of this third hour thing. So I I heard you say bill wasn't showing up just yet So I thought well, I ain't call I ain't got in for a while. So Well, we have that's that third hour is a problem. So I don't know what's going on there I'll keep working on it joe. You keep working on your end. I'll keep working on my end. How about that? Yeah, sir. And thanks for the calling you have a good one. Have a good night, joe. Thank you for your call And thank you for your uh, for your candor and your insights. Uh, we got um, let's try um David in san francisco. David. Welcome to america night. Oh, thanks, bro. Yeah, uh, I'm glad I followed him Talking about the mid south, um, the um, you remember fema, uh, just it still hasn't shown up in north carolina, georgia, florida and whatnot uh, the uh, national weather bureau decided Almost 15 years ago that the new tornado alley was going to be up the mississippi river valley in the ohawa river valley And that's right through kentucky. We've been part of tennessee, uh, mississippi louisiana southern missouri illinois Mid south and uh, Arkansas FEMA is not there Donald trump doesn't believe that climate change is real He doesn't believe that pollution is a problem pollution is causing the enormous storms down in the uh, uh south And fema is not there and donald trump does not care So I that might explain the previous callers Uh, I mean, i'm sure there are other reasons. Is that the reason why is that the reason why are you called dav? Oh, no, no, actually Real quick because I got a I got a full board. I want to get some more phone calls Make your point. Well, you had another caller and this kind of gets into it There's the old book catch 22 and it's about a phony war that's being run by organized crime And when you look at donald trump gets given a plane by oman worth a half a billion dollars But if oman is going to get a cut of the two million dollar per ship Told that they're going to charge through the gulf of uh, of the horn moves Then that's going to come to a I heard one economist say 180 billion per year 180 and so what's a measly one half billion? jet old jet Well, I'll tell you what I I'll tell you what I got to go but that catch 22 by joseph heller is a great book Um, it is a great book. David. Thanks for the phone call. We got uh, tony and montreal tony Make it fast make it pithy and go you're on the air Uh, I won't make too many comments on what I've just heard because it seems like Everyone's jumping ship when uh fair weather fans Are the worst in baseball and worse in politics So the only thing I'm going to say is um, if you have a worldview of politics I I am on the outside I'm not looking and I'm not just Disgouraging anyone from their own opinions. I respect all of those opinions. I just heard I just don't participate in what they're saying in terms of Saying they're right or wrong. I just think that their vision is skewed to what they believe in but in the Greater scheme of things the world is a very large place And I believe that trump and his administration including jade vans Are looking at trying to nullify a devil a devil that exists in iran and Maybe maybe they may be the uh people of haigar, but they are no more different than any other person They have the same dna and they have the same wants and desires. Unfortunately. They are on the side of a regime that wants to eliminate all other Religions and all other people so it comes down to a person that has the the gumption To say enough is enough after 48 years of people chanting death to america I I just wouldn't remind your listeners that the iran regime continues to inculcate that in little children And that cannot go all I will say about this is I would not send jade vans to Pakistan I don't trust that country. I don't trust any of those countries jade vans is the current Okay, vice president and I think that he will be the next president And we should keep him home where he's safe and let those people come to america if they want to negotiate Tony thanks for the phone call. Let's go to danie and rala danie. You're on america at night Well, actually I kind of agree somewhat with tony it seems like A lot of people are kind of trump bashing and I mean, I guess that's easy to do. He's like I said he he's not my favorite person in the world But he's done more interviews in a year Than joe biden did And I think four years Um gives more information The murder rate in dc has dropped by 68 percent Now trump's been in office For over a year. So 20 25 the number had already dropped And now this year it's down by 68 percent in members crime's been dropping crime spiked during covid Um, yeah, all right. I mean and crime was going down Most of covid was Biden Uh, uh, nobody talked about covid was covid was Was 2020 2019 2020 So it's 2019 2019. That's where covid 19 gets its name But it was not until march Of 2020 that it started going up. That is correct and biden took over in january of of 21 So it was a good year Yeah, 13 14 months Trump had about eight nine months. Okay. Look, look, look, look, look Most of covid hold on. Wait a minute. You finish finish your thought. I got a full board make your point and I gotta move on I think everybody's bashing trump and Like I said, he's gotten more done. He's ended like seven or eight wars Uh, I think it might be a little time for a little bit of uh, wait and see Uh, and uh, I'll be too damn critical. Uh, have a good night, brother. Thanks, dany. Uh, let's go to, uh, Catherine in vancouver. Catherine. Welcome to america night Hey, magar, you know how you said when you're little and you went to the beach and all that kind of stuff there Yeah, and it was really close to home this killer thing. Well, yeah, I had a similar thing It was very close to home. Uh, cliford olfam. You ever hear of him? No, which one was he? He was a serial killer out where I live and um, he had me in his van And um, he had you in his van? Yes, he picked me up hitchhiking with my girlfriend And he wanted us to go work For his company Washing window so he gave us his phone number and he was in my driveway. That's where he dropped it off Yes, and so he gives us his phone number and and it was really pushy and I just got the creeps, you know, and so, um How old were you? I was 15. It was late 70 79 something like that And then I two weeks later he got caught He um had Simon part partington went missing just up the road and um, and they It was like it was identical. It was his band. It was his face. It was his sunglasses. It was him and um, it was it's it's really freaky when that happens because and then the older you get It's harder And it's just it just made my faith in god so much stronger because it just blows my mind and if it wasn't for For me throwing his phone number away and getting you know, just the creeps from him What could have happened, you know, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely Catherine good creepy story. Good thing you're safe. Thanks for checking in from the uh from the from the text line Uh, this one's from illinois. Uh, yes, it's dangerous and expensive to send vans to the secret and secret service to pakistan Bring the pakistani to the white house Uh, here's another one Danny trump did not end seven or eight wars. Here's another one magatoni and others are bias That uh, and then there was another one here. Let me see here. Uh, wait a minute There was another one here that I wanted to get to Guess I can't find it. I can't find I gotta break America at night back in a moment Want to know what's coming up on america at night? text rundown to 844-262-4729 844-2 mcgron for your daily show preview delivered straight to your phone Hey, that's uh, about gonna do it for us. Oops, that's gonna back in to do it for us. Um, you know, I I just Sitting here on the break. The last thing I want to do is turn this last hour into a uh, Love trump hate trump hour. So let's kind of cool it on the rhetoric, right? You can call up But there are other things to talk about Uh, other things that are out there other things we're interested in not just uh, we're not gonna It is what it is. I get it. Um Everybody wants to call up and defend them. Everybody wants to call up and despise them. I get it But there are other places where we can go. We're not gonna do this every night. So that was my fault for Uh, trying to um, but anyway, um I like normal conversations. I don't like people screaming at each other. So on the on the ringleader of this circus And that's how I'm gonna run the show. So be warned Now with that being said, let me remind you That this show is turned into a podcast each and every night and each and every night you can download the podcast Just go to where all podcasts are housed Oh too many dimensions Spotify What iTunes right all the places where you get um podcast and download America at night with a McGraw-Mill Haven And then you can get it to your phone You can go back and listen to a topic go back and listen to an interview Send it to somebody who might want to be interested in it And then of course you can always sign up for the text messages each and every night Alex puts together a text Of the show that's going to be of each night And so you can get a chance to uh, listen right along and uh be part of the lineup and hear what's coming up On the show tonight. So you can download the podcast and sign up for the Uh for the for the lineup for the evening 18442 McGraw to sign up for the text 18442 McGraw and download the podcast. We're all fine podcasts are heard That's as simple as that. Uh, we thank everybody for listening. We thank everybody for calling We thank the text line and especially I want to thank, um Well everybody out there because it is truly I don't know where the three hours goes each and every night No idea where it's going to be going From the text line so you're going to screen anyone who wants to talk about trump pro or con No, I'm just going to steer you off the conversation And uh, you can self monitor yourself. How's that? I'm feeling it's going to be an ongoing problem our engineer tonight Is richard good our executive director is alex hinton. I'm agron milhaven. This is america at night on westwood one So Vince colonies is redefining news talk. I'm Vince colonies host of the vince podcast I'm bringing you the truth beneath the headlines of all of the nation's top stories in depth interviews We feature newsmaking interviews with the top guests on the whole planet And I'll ask the questions you only dream of other interviewers asking and a front row seat to the most important Conversations of the day. It's a show with an obsessive focus on what's good for america. You are going to love vince The vince show following listen on your favorite platform