Every time there's an election, caravans, migrants, all these criminals are coming across the border. Trans migrants, yeah. That one's the best, so it is, yeah. They're gonna eat you, yeah, yeah. All right, Paola Ramos is an Emmy award-winning journalist, contributor for MSNOW, Telemundo, and author of Defectors, The Rise of the Latino Far Right and What It Means for America. She also hosts a podcast with her dad, Jorge Ramos, called The Moment. And she joins us today on iHip News. Paula, did I say it right? You got it right, actually. Yes. Oh, good. Good. Good. That's one of my favorite because where I come from, it's Paula. I know. Paula. They call me Paola, Paula, all sorts of things. So you did very well. Okay, great. I think what we have to, and we don't cover this that much, but there are segments of the United States where we have people that are here and they're not going anywhere. We have an Arab Muslim population. We also have this fabulous, growing, multicultural Latino population that I love, that I think is just such an asset to America. And this voting block is not a monolith. And everybody's jockeying for their vote. Everybody's trying to understand. So Trump got 46% of Latino voters in the 2024 election. What do you think? And he's won Latino men. He won that vote. What do you think they see in him? I mean, so right before the election, right before November, 2024, when they asked most Latino voters, do you think that Donald Trump is talking about you when he's insulting immigrants? Like, do you think he is criminalizing you? The majority of Latino voters said no, The majority of Latino voters did not make the connection between Trump's words and them. So I think now, fast forward to where we are, I think a lot of people are coming to terms with this idea that regardless of how many generations you've been in this country, and regardless of how American you feel, in Trump's America, you don't belong. Now, that doesn't mean that that's a vote for Democrats at all, which I think that's where Democrats get it wrong. But what it does mean is that that 48% saw something in Trump. And I think, I mean, we can get into the what it is, but I think what I always remind myself is that to be Latina or an immigrant does not make you immune to anti-immigrant rhetoric. It does not make you immune to anti-Blackness. It does not make you immune to transphobia, which was also a big issue. And the painful journey of assimilating in this country and wanting to belong so badly in the in-group, that's something that we go through a lot in our own home countries. I think in Trump, they saw power and they saw an entry point into whiteness. They saw themselves as part of a group because they didn't want to be cast with those other bad immigrants. They wanted to prove to this Trump world that they were not those bad guys. So to me, it goes beyond politics. There's a lot of psychology there. There's a lot of pain. Okay. So let me ask you this. Now we have, we're going to have a generation of people just from these close to 18 months that where children's memories are going to be hiding. They're going to have a memory of their parents sitting them down and saying, you can't go to school today. Or they're going to have a memory of coming home from school and a parent is gone. And we're going to have, we have victims of bigotry in the legalized systemic targeting. It's called the Kavanaugh rule. Judge Kavanaugh, he doesn't like his name associated with that, which is why I like to bring it up every chance that I can get, that you can pull somebody over who looks or sounds Latinos. So after that, after you, This group has fallen prey to the horrors of systemic targeted racism. Where do you think this leaves Latino voters? And again, I know they're not a monolith, but this is really targeted racism. I think there's like three different scenarios that I see. Number one, I think maybe you can see a similar story to what we saw in Arizona under Joe Arpaio. I remember those days of like SB 1070, right? you had this entire generation of Latinos that grew up watching their parents being criminalized and stopped and deported and self-deported. And then what happened? That generation of Latinos, many of whom were U.S. born or many of whom were dreamers, then became the organizers that helped transform Arizona into a purple state. And so there's a lot to learn from what happened in Maricopa County. You can have that scenario. What I'm also seeing are, and this is a sad part that we never talk about, there is a group of Latinos, some US-born, many that live in mixed status families that have had enough, that have been living in the shadows, not just under Trump, but also under an Obama administration and a Biden administration and previous Democratic administrations that promise comprehensive immigration reform time and time again. And I cannot tell you the amount of conversations I've had with people that wake up every day and say, is it time to go? Do I self-deport or not? And I follow many of those people that are packing up their bags and choosing to go. And the sad part is, is that there's something very liberating about saying I've had enough. And there's something dignified of that choice, at least when it's your choice. So that's also happening. And then I think you have the other scenario, which I can sense from organizers that are finally kind of still feel mistrust with both parties, but feel a sense of belonging, you know, in a sense of they're finding their voice in this like anti-Trump world. Because they somehow, and I think you and I feel the same way, they somehow understand that it's worth fighting for. Now that this this going back to this idea like that, this multiracial, multicultural, pluralistic coalition is worth fighting for and that it is the only hope to get to that, you know, more just version of this experiment that we're all living in. And so I see those those three scenarios. You know, I'm I sometimes I feel like I'm the most cynical person on Earth because, you know, I'm I cover a lot of these stories. but oftentimes and my dad reminds me like you know there's something that connects all of us latinos whether you're a trump supporter or not someone in your family somewhere someone believed that it was worth it to come here because of whatever we left behind and told us that it was worth fighting for here and you know my dad is cheesy i believe him sometimes and i i you know but it's it's um it's a fascinating fascinating community and and and what drives me is there's curiosity because we don't know the answers. Okay. So think, let's think about it in terms like this, because everything you're saying is really thought provoking to me because I, I feel like in order for us to get through this fascist abusive takeover that we're all living through right now, we have to build really strong coalitions. And I firmly believe with every fiber in my body that none of us are free until all of us are free. I know that by picking on and bullying and marginalizing trans people that leaves Latinos vulnerable. It leaves women vulnerable. It leaves everybody vulnerable. So I think we can leave no one behind. When survivors of the Holocaust or their descendants came to the United States, they historically went to civil rights marches and marched with black Americans. That was the lesson. First they come for it. How do you see the Democrats? Because that's, I hate the two party system, but it is what we have. And I think the Democrats are the best vehicle that we can get to stop bending the knee to corporations and lift up universal human rights. How did the Democrats get this message to the Latino electorate, this linking of universal human rights? know there is a component of this that latinos historically are probably catholic and maybe yeah culturally conservative yeah maybe lean on reagan said all the time no reagan was always the one that was like well latinos are conservative they just don't know it they they i mean they might historically lean towards patriarchal tendencies um uh maybe uh lean towards um some homophobia. Yeah. Because, you know, the Catholicism is such a ubiquitous presence. And evangelicalism now. Yes. So, Latinas, and I know you talk about this all the time. I do. I hate the Bible thumpers. I've heard. I, too, am an atheist. But anyways, but that's so, it is interesting because Latinas have the highest rate of conversion to evangelicalism more than any other group right now. And I think you kind of see an interesting story there. When I talk to, when someone's interviewing Latinos, whether you recently arrived here, they're migrants, they're mixed status families. And you ask them, what's one of the first things you do? When you come to a country that still feels unfamiliar, oftentimes they find a church. They find a church because it's their way to- Community. Community. And then what happens inside of those churches completely transforms one. And also, of course, there's, you know, people find community, they find solidarity. But I have spent so much time in these churches that sort of insert these very problematic pastors. We know that story. And that then transform, I think, this vulnerability into a political, and I've seen it time and time again. I've spent so much time in the Rio Grande Valley and in Arizona and in California. I've seen the pastors. I've been inside those rooms and I see the way that they turn this vulnerability into a political message that is all about the right and the wrong. All about this fight between good and evil. And I see the way that that transforms even immigrants into suddenly then seeing their own and being like well no those other immigrants no they the evil ones Is this intentional Are they, because the right-wing evangelicals have been organized for a very long time and they know how powerful this binary, you know, emotional black will is. Are they intentionally targeting? Yeah, because they can't survive without Latinos. Now, do they want them in? That's a different question. But they know when Donald Trump launches his Evangelicals for Trump campaign in 2020, where does he go? He goes to Miami. He goes to Miami, Florida. He doesn't go to any other sort of, you know, white county. He goes to Miami, Florida, and he goes into one of the Miami's largest evangelical churches because they know that they need a percentage of Latinos in order to survive. In order for this white supremacist coalition to survive, they need them. And they're there. And so, you know, the the every single evangelical coalition, you have these like white pastors doing these like mass, you know, programs along along the southern border. I have seen them. And so, you know, I don't know enough to know if there's if there's like a real genuine calling for them to want them in. But what I do know is that white supremacy does not survive without a percentage of Latinos. And then what's interesting, too, is that these you're going to have to help me with the pronunciation. Tell it. Tell it. I can't do it. Televangelist. Televangelist. Yes. So I can't say. So I've seen these televangelist programmings now switching into Spanish language in Texas. And suddenly there. Yeah. Yeah. No. And it's happening. um and if you go to texas you're doing it on purpose it's strategic totally yeah fuck god that is terrible i mean i had you know i've seen how they do this in the bible belt i see how they do this in rural america i see how they have made uh this a part of community and then and then somebody's whole ethos boils down to church and patriotism and i see firsthand because I grew up in suburban Oklahoma City, and I know how strong of a pull this is. And so the right-wing white supremacist Christian nationalists have been so targeted. They've made abortion an issue. They've targeted gay marriage. They've targeted trans. And it's interesting, the Latino, what does the Latino community know about Stephen Miller? Do they know who he is. No, but it's funny. No, I mean, so I keep thinking and among my friend of circles were always like some Latino must have broken his heart. Like something must have happened. Totally. I think so. In that high school in Santa Monica, like something must have happened because since like he has been dreaming of this moment. Yeah, he was in high school, right? Since he was literally like writing the room, like he was literally like writing letters in his high school, essentially saying that janitors, the Latino janitors were there to like pick up his trash and that they weren't doing it. And that those other Latino students around him, they had to assimilate. So he's been like dreaming up this moment forever. But going back to this like, you know, white supremacist thing in 2022, one of the things that Stephen Miller does in his group, America First or America Legal First, they go into Spanish language counties in Colorado. And they're specifically spreading out Spanish language flyers with transphobic messaging and wrapped into kind of this like Christian messaging of the right and wrong, which is it all goes back to this like, you know, divine calling like this is our calling. And I think Stephen Miller, not to give him too much credit, but I think they're all betting on on this idea that you really pointed out, which is that there's something about this Christian and transphobic message that would trigger a moral panic that is familiar among some of us Latinos, right? That grew up in these colonized countries where these gender norms were very much ingrained. And the lines between city and church have always been very blurry. And that something about this transphobic, like Christian language would work. And it did. And it did. It worked very, very well. because beyond the religious aspects, what that language does, which is the same thing that anti-immigrant language does, which is the same thing that fear mongering does, it essentially inspires a sense of disgust, right? And the disgust is at the heart of what allows a human to dehumanize the other, right? Like if I find you disgusting, like I'm not going to see you as a human. And that's what the transphobic messaging does very well among us. And the anti-immigrant message is the same thing. But it's all to me. And that's why like, when I write these books, or when I, you know, when I try and make sense of the things, I talk to scientists and psychologists, because it's not politics, right? It's the feeling. Yeah, it's all about this, like, visceral feeling. It's just disgust. You think there's I've read this before, this isn't my original thought, there's a bargain that is pitched to people, like to let's talk about the rural white triple Trumpers. The bargain for them is these are capitalists with no capital. But the Republican party says, if you vote with us, here are immigrants, trans people, and gay people, and black people that you get to demonize. We're going to give you a permission structure. So now to the Latino community, is that here's the bargain. You come to us, And then here is who you get to be better than these gay people, these trans people, because this is back to the psychology. And I agree with you. A lot of this is psychological. It's in these powers, really nefarious powers know this and they know how to tap into this weakness in the face of the Democratic Party, not standing up against genocide, not standing for universal human rights. it leaves this vacuum. Exactly. Well, yes, but also if you take a step back and you look at who Latinos are today versus who they were, say, when my dad was starting his career in the United States, we've changed so much. The majority of Latinos right now, the majority are US-born. The majority speak English, not Spanish. It's third-generation Latinos that are the fastest growing segment among us. And so what that means is that we are so much more Americanized and assimilated than what people think. I think there was a story 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, that really centered our solidarity among this immigrant story, because it was closer to us. And it made sense that we were a community, we were a tribe. But that kind of is disappearing. And we are more American. My siblings, my brother barely speaks, my dad hates it, he barely speak Spanish. So all this to say that, that I think Trumpism also bets on that idea, now that there is a small segment and a growing segment of Latinos that are so Americanized, that they too can sort of buy into the us versus them game to your point. And it is true. And then on top of that, I do think that there are certain kind of like psychological and like historic things that we have as latinas that we never talk about right all the racial baggage that we carry from latin america like it's so complex right like we come from countries where like the spaniards and the colonizers institutionalized caste systems right where we have been taught to to to sort of see ethnicities and race and in very problematic ways like we we do this like racial dance all the time. We've our countries, we come from places where we can like reclassify race and always claim whiteness, you know, because of the Europeans. Like I can't say the amount of times that have interviewed like right wing Latinos from the Proud Boys, like Enrique Tarrio, all these guys. Yeah. What's going on with that? Okay, so Enrique Tarrio, when you talk to Enrique Tarrio, he'll tell you, well, I'm 60% black, right? Because he's a black Cuban man. And that's their way of shielding themselves from being called racist but then he always says that i'm 40 european right and that's that is typically when you think of like the right wing like latino manosphere the entry point into these like white supremacist bubbles is always this like european eurocentric and direct lineas that we get to claim and they always do that and that is literally their way into that bubble what's going going to land to get that deal? Nothing. He's still a loser. No, no, but that's the thing. I mean, because I think about this with like Clarence Thomas. I think about it with Pam Bondi, you know, and she just had her image taken off the justice front, thrown in the trash can. I think about it with Scott Besson. I think about it with Tim Cook. I think about it with all of the people that think that they are the exception because I, growing up in white suburbia, white, I went to a public high school and there was hardly any diversity. I mean, hardly any. I know these white supremacists. I know them. 50 years I spent around it. I know that there is the same way that they judged Barack Obama, whose mother was from Kansas, a heritage American, if you will. I know that Enrique of the Proud Boys, I know what they think. I know they're going to call him a W-E-T-B-A-C-K because I've heard it my entire life. 100%. I know that they see him as somebody, well, we'll get this Hispanic to do it because we can get him to do this job cheaper. That's exactly it. I know the way they view him. That's it. And that's it. So I was in Miami when Trump pardons the Proud Boys and pardons the January 6th insurrections. And I was there for Enrique Tarrio's welcome party, like literally, right? So I was not only... I was at the party, of course. I was at the party, but I was in the press. But I was covering the day before this Latino insurrectionist pardon watch party that they were hosting as Trump was being inaugurated Some people were even wearing their court ankle bracelets And they were all waiting to be pardoned and I saw it And then they were waiting for Enrique Tarrio's release. And the story will make sense in a second, but essentially, Enrique Tarrio, you know, Trump pardons him. Enrique Tarrio gets to Miami, where he is essentially seen as this anti-communist hero, and as the martyr, and that's the way that he was received. He comes down, there's like all these, you know, photos of him in the airport. He finally has a press conference. What I found interesting is that Enrique is sitting there, you know, with his like little glasses and he was always this like tough guy. But joking, he says, well, you know, maybe Trump is going to call me because maybe I'm going to get a job at the White House. Maybe I'll go to D.C. and they're there in that voice and I've covered him for a long time there there was something in me that said oh you really believe that you will be called like you really believe that he likes you that you're in the in group no one has ever called him he's still in Miami and and and that's that's the story of a lot of these people that in you know in the proud boys Enrique saw a boys club that made him feel cool. And then suddenly the Roger Stones of the world call him and Trump calls him because they need a Latinos for Trump warrior. And then he becomes radicalized by that power and he feels cool. And then he becomes the literal soldier that enlists everyone to go into the Capitol. And then he serves the longest sentence than anyone else. And now he's lonely. He has nothing. And it goes back to what you said in 2020 when Trump loses the election, all the Proud boys look at Enrique Daria and the white men say, the West belongs to the white race and the white race alone, and we owe nothing to you. And they kind of like turn their backs on him. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's all a game. It's all a power game. Totally. Yeah. Let's talk, shift gears about the lady that she did the rally in Miami and she saw dancing, I will vote for Donald Trump and then fast forward. And it's really sad. And I don't enjoy human suffering. Like I don't really like triple Trumpers. I don't want to hang out with them, but I don't want them to die. And I want them to have healthcare. All right. So this lady, she is, you know, I mean, it is high times. She's campaigning for Trump. She's having salsa rallies and it is just, you know, all grins and giggles. And then fast forward into Stephen Miller's machinations of his plan to deport a hundred million people so he can have an easier route through the emergency room. Somebody she loves was deported and she's on camera, snot slinging and crying. Speak to the Latino voter who believed that they were the exception and then somebody they love has been separated or damaged. And what is going on with her now? Is she still a Trumper? You know, so I was just in Miami. And so in Miami, it's interesting, right? Because in Miami, you have the heart of Trump's Latino coalition, which are Cubans and Venezuelans. And many of them truly, truly believe that they were untouchable, right? I cannot tell you the amount of Cuban voters who are the most loyal Trump voters out there. How now for the first time ever, they're now being impacted by immigration. Like I have text conversations and I'm on the phone with this one Cuban woman who voted for Trump, rallied for Trump, campaigned for him. Her husband, who is also Cuban, was detained and was then deported to Cuba, which is just just like the hypocrisy there, right? Of like, you vote for this man who promised to be the liberator of the communist regime and then sends your husband to Cuba. And now this Cuban man is now essentially in Mexico. And so that is happening everywhere. These Trump supporters that are realizing that they too are being racially profiled and that they too have family members that are now impacted. And it's very hard for Latino to not know someone that is being impacted. And so the question is now what? I do think that there is some type of remorse, right? Like I do, this woman that I talked to, she doesn't just feel guilty. She feels a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And to the point that like, you know, she's bullied online and people are like, what do you know? You deserve this. So I think now what's interesting for Democrats, right? That I'm also kind of seeing the way that they're organizing, that's the moral question for them. Right. Do you bring them in? Are they welcomed back in? Or are those already like, if you already voted for Trump once and you believed in the message, can you bring them in? And I don't think, I don't know that they figured that out. No, I'm not sure. I think the answer to that, Paola, is I think accountability is important. Me too. And I think that if a Latino person, and I understand the dynamics of trying to navigate the United States and the racial structure of it. Yeah. And even though I'm a woman, my skin, my accent, everything has put me, you know, ahead in a lot of ways in this country. And if a Latino person found, because both parties have failed us and they found some sort of home 77 million Americans did when they voted for him. But the message from that is, I screwed up and here's why. And like recently I'll tell you, I realized that I contributed to a lot of this. I voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016. I worked for her in 2016. Yeah. And at the time, I remember my son called me a centrist and I was like, like, I'm not a centrist. You know, I'm so liberal in all of these things. And I don't dislike Hillary Clinton. I agree with her probably on 90% of everything. But I realize now my lesson is I was able to vote for Hillary Clinton because I was a wealthy white woman. I didn't have to worry about working class Americans that didn't have healthcare, that didn't have dental care, that their wages weren't going up because my wages were going up. And so there's an accountability that I think is important. And I think the answer to a lot of this is we all have to be engaged politically and have robust conversations about all of it. About all of it. Yeah, you're right. I think one of the questions that I think is dividing the party, and I think it goes back to the Hillary and Bernie division or tension, will be the ICE question. Do you want And I think candidates will be forced because one thing is to to rally behind immigrants now and now suddenly everyone cares about the raids. But then the moral question for the party will be like, do you abolish ICE or not? And I think that's going to be kind of what, you know, where you see the courage or not, because what the data shows you. And this is what like progressives are talking about. What the data shows you is that that messaging doesn't work. Abolishing ICE? It doesn't work. That's like the numbers that I've seen is that the data shows you that people don't want or don't feel comfortable with that language, that they want a sort of broader, like, you know, we want a comprehensive immigration reform type of messaging. However, what the organizers will tell you is that they know that the right thing is to abolish ICE. That is the North Star, right? As an institution, as a history of ICE, it is corrupt. get down and start over with the vision that you want. So that's to your point, like, do you do the safe thing? Or do you do the right thing? And what strategically do you need to do the the sort of the politically right thing in order for this long term goal? I am of the belief like you, particularly now when so many people feel politically homeless, and like these like bargaining chips, like you, you you fight for weight, and of course, because I feel like no, that they'll do that. I don't know either because I feel like, you know, focus group politics and the Democrats are so disciplined on that. Yeah. And I feel like it feels like right now when I hear a corporate Dem talk, I just want to go shut up. I know. Stop it. I know. Leave in something. Yeah. How do Latino voters or is that abolish ICE? Or is it just as nuanced as it is when you get to the last, the last, I'm with you completely. The last, you know, numbers I saw from political consultants is that they're not with it. But I also, you know, I think this is where like the Harris campaign really failed. I think in 2024, they also bet on this idea that if they too were hardline on immigration, if they too somehow tried to like out-trump Trump at the border and be the ones that were like, you know, but we actually mean it, that that would resonate with Latinos. And it didn't. So I think we spent time talking about Trump, but the truth is also that there is this deep, deep, deep disillusionment among so many Latinos that are so tired of being promised the same things that have nothing to hold on to, right? Like no real vision from Democrats. And I think they want more and they desperately want more. And I don't believe that this anti-Trump movement is enough. No, it's not. Not even. Not even. need you need more of course not you you need more you need a vision and that's where i go back to these like stories that are heartbreaking which is the the decision to leave or not right and the numbers show you that for the first time in decades there are more immigrants leaving than coming and i don't think we understand as a society like the profound long-term effects of what it means to have generations of immigrants that then go home and that then tell the other family member like it's it's not worth it anymore. Right? Like that American dream that like drove everyone here, like that's gone. Like, I don't think we've wrapped our heads around like what that means and how that can like transform this country And that that what I see see too Okay Also last question I just want to ask you about this So the Republican messaging and you see it every time there's an election, caravans, migrants, all these criminals are coming across the border. Trans migrants. That one's the best. So it is. Yeah. They're going to to eat you. Yeah. So I lived during all of this time in Oklahoma, not that far from the border. I mean, it's, you know, there's Mexico, Texas is a big state, but we have a huge Latino population in Oklahoma and it's fantastic. I mean, I love, I worked in an, as an interior designer for 25, 30 years. And so my, as glamorous as that sounds, the majority of my job, I'm on a job site. And I worked with immigrants every single day, the same crews, house after house, project after project, people that I now know, I've known for two decades that are my friends. I never experienced any sort of mass immigrants running around with guns and buses being fairly close to the border. I never experienced any of this. Is that bullshit? It is. Of course it is. I mean, but is it bullshit like the numbers? Because if you talk, I always knew when I was talking to somebody that watched Fox News, because they'd be like, you know, this immigration problem, I'm like, bitch, you live in a gated community. That's all white. Every house is a cracker, a saltine cracker. Like, were the numbers so much higher with Biden? They were high. Yeah, there were a lot of... What about deportations? And they were not as high. It is true that there was a high, high influx of asylum seekers coming in. But the way that the media talks about it. Did it help our economy? Of course it did. But this is why, like, and when I'm on TV and when our colleagues are on TV, like, I'm so careful with the language, right? One thing is calling it, and even MSNBC sometimes would call it this way. One thing is saying there's a border crisis. The other thing is saying there's a humanitarian crisis, right? The one thing is saying, and that's so important because yes, there were hundreds, that is true. There were hundreds and thousands of asylum seekers that were coming in. Not from insane asylum system. Not criminals, but people that in this country have a constitutional right to seek asylum. And that is true. There were many, and it was mishandled and the Biden administration mishandled it, not for the reasons that Trump will tell you, but for the reasons, because it was not framed as a real humanitarian crisis. And that's what it was. And so, you know, and that's why it's very, you can call them illegal aliens or you can call them undocumented immigrants. You can say it's a border crisis or a humanitarian crisis. You can say that they're criminals or that they have a legal right to seek asylum. And yes, it was a mess, but Trumpism thrives off the fear-mongering. It thrives off those images. It thrives off, you know, telling everyone that the danger is imminent, it, that it's in your backyard, it's about to be here. And to be fair, what was interesting about living in New York during that time is that for the first time, New Yorkers that suddenly saw asylum seekers in the streets were faced with the reality of, okay, so what does it mean to be among immigrants that need help? And sometimes the answer wasn't what you thought it was. Remember that Trump made a lot of interest in New York. He really did. And so I think, you know, one thing is to talk about it. And the other thing is to be exposed to it, like you were every day, right? And to really understand what you're talking about and to find the real empathy and curiosity in you to want to understand and to not be led by the fear mongering, which is so easy. And so, you know, I think now the interesting question is like, now that the fear mongering is gone. Now that finally Americans of all walks of life have been exposed in their front yards with the raids and with who immigrants really are, which are family members and their dads and their moms and their children. That might change the conversation, perhaps. Again, I'm cynical because we've been here before. People cried when family separation happened. The whole country was morally outraged and then we went back to Trump. So I'm very cynical. I honestly don't blame you. we've elected this man twice by other rising specifically immigrants and living in a in the state that i did the majority of my life i know how powerful it is to scapegoat latinos i know people um who triple trumped ladies that i know rich white ladies that i raised my kids with yeah that probably thought oh jennifer's a nut she's a crazy atheist liberal and then i get these text text messages. Thank you so much for speaking out for immigrants. My housekeeper's husband was deported. Right. I think it feels different now. You know, and so, I mean, as grotesque as that is, that that's what made them get there. I do think, you know, when I think about that little boy, Liam, with his beanie and the little ears on that. And I think about the importance constantly of connecting all of us universal human rights, don't leave anybody behind, don't trust politicians that, that try to leave something behind. And I think your point, and I'd never heard this before Paula of calling it a humanitarian crisis, the propaganda that we're sold all the time and the way things are labeled. It's really, it's the soft bigotry. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that, that really sinks in. It's kind of like when people call sexual abuse evidence, child porn or kiddie porn, you know, and that goes on and on and on. And there's a dehumanization to all of this type of propaganda. Yeah. Okay. So last question, what do you think the Democrats' message, is it specific to Latinos? Is it specific to immigration? What is the message for the Democrats moving forward in the midterms? I mean, I think there's a lot to learn from Zoran, right? Totally. There's so much to learn from him because he was, and I know you know him, But he was he was capable of doing, I guess what, you know, he I met them. He was capable of of getting the the Trump supporters and getting the Latino immigrants and the Muslim Americans like he was able to build a coalition based on a sense that everyone is worthy of belonging in a place. Right. And like that is, you know, then you can get into the immigration stuff, but there's no no one is left behind. And you don't even have to like call people out, but it is, it is like everyone is worthy of this thing of this dream. Even the universal childcare, if your child's undocumented, they're still getting, everyone can get getting a lunch. Sure. And if you, and I, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a political strategist, but I do believe in like, if you feel inspired, right? Like if you, if you feel like, you know, it's, it's what I felt when I was graduating from college here in New York and I worked to, and I went to go work for Barack Obama. I felt it. Yeah. Right. And people ask me all the time, like, what does it mean to be a Latina or a Latina? Like, I don't know. And I know that it's a feeling, right? Like, I know it's like, it's something that I feel when I walk into a space. I don't know how politicians think about us, but I know that it's like, it feels good. And I think that's, it's like going back to like the feeling of like, man, yes, like I can get with this. I don't know. Maybe next time I'll have a better answer, but I know- No, I think that, you know, we often say like, oh, I'm not, and I'm not a political strategist. My podcast has gotten super popular. I think political strategists have kind of failed us. When we look at how did we lose to Trump twice, two competent, educated women with experience and resumes that are out of this world. And so these are important conversations for us to lean into other perspectives other than just this boring focus group polling type stuff and i think that you know i was so happy to have you on because the latino latinos are here they are a part of america um you know you hear now people are talking about we can't have sharia law and these muslims all over the place arab americans are here muslim americans are here they're not going anywhere latinos are not going anywhere steven miller can try all he wants to deport 100 million people it's not going to happen he's going to support some and he's going to kill some. That's going to happen. But these policies are widely unpopular. And so I just, every chance we can build coalitions and connect us all because I really believe we're all so connected. I do too. And that, and you know, one of the things that I learned the most when I report in Latin America and particularly the feminist movement of Latin America, what is interesting to study about them is the way in which all of the different struggles are intertwine and woven in together, right? Like I've been covering people that are protesting, and then those are the women that are then literally running the like underground abortion networks. I've seen them like wrap abortion pills to send them to the Southern border. Those same organizers are then the lesbian organizers that are part of the LGBTQ rallies that are then the ones that have like, you know, their cousins and aunts connected to the crisis of the disappeared women. And so there's something to your point of like the way that these struggles are like intertwined and like, how do you get all of these organizers to go back to that universal value that you see a lot in Latin America, despite the kind of, you know, the pendulum swings there, which are insane, you know, from like, anti colonial movements to fascism. The constant is that like, real, real profound, like universal value that unites this resistance movement it's it's fat i love i love going there to see that i love it too paola ramos thank you so much for coming on i hope that i can have you on again we're both in new york now i know now yeah welcome officially yes thank you thank you
