The Next Miata Might Be a Toyota? EV Tax Credit Killed, End of Cheap Electric Cars?

Hello and welcome to this car pod. I'm Kenan. I'm Felipe. And there's a lot to cover today. Let's start with the news. The big news of the week, the Lexus LS is dead. Yeah, big news of the week. Let me tell you something. It was the Jaguar XJ first. Well, because big full-size luxury sedans. First they came for the Jaguar XJ. First they came for the Jaguar XJ. Full-size luxury sedans used to be a big deal. When I was a kid, there was no luxury SUVs, which obviously all these buyers are buying now. They're buying Range Rovers and all that. There was none of that. And a big luxury sedan was how you told people that you had made it. That was the flagship. It was the flagship of the brand. And it was the flagship. It was like what people wanted to be seen in. Flagship of status. A big body Mercedes, Princess Diana. Like if you were a mover and a shaker, you had a full-size luxury sedan. Sure. The XJ is gone. Jaguar doesn't make one anymore. Nope. Which was a segment pioneer really in a lot of ways. That's now gone. The Audi A8 is next. Mark, I got words. How many Lexus LSs do you think they sold last year? 20,000. I'm sorry? 11,000. I'm sorry? 6,100. 2163. Wow. By the way, the data that I'm... What was the best? I don't have it before 2005. This is from good car. What was it in an O5? An O5 was 26,000. What was it in an O8? That was the new... No way it was 20,000. An O7 was 35,000. Okay, so that was the year that the LS4 was sold. 10% of what? 10% of what? 20 years ago. It's a trickle. The market is no longer interested in these cars. And it's crazy to imagine like, it's funny because we've watched some of these automakers pull out of some of these once-popular segments, right, the Ford Fusion and the Chevy and Malibu, like mid-sized sedans. Sad but true. And what happens when that happens is, it leaves behind only the esteemed players, minivans, right, people back down to minivans and only left the Odyssey and the Chrysler. Yep. And that's gonna happen here too. And it will leave, there will always be an S-Class, but there will not always be the fringe cars. Like the non, you know. Do you think there'll always be a seven series? I really don't think BMW should keep putting money into that car. I don't know why they do it. I don't understand it. Heritage, I think that might be the only reason. They're still probably making money on it and they still sell in Europe, whereas this car doesn't have a Europe to sell to. And China, keep China in mind. Large sedans do well there. I don't think Lexus has any presence there. Yeah, but it's gone. That's the end. There's a 2026, like final, they're doing a final run out model special edition to commemorate the end. If they really cared, they would do it with the same wheels as the oldie. Yeah, that actually would be pretty cool. Stronger than the 1990s version. You know what the, it is the Heritage edition, by the way. You know what the irony is? I truly mean this. The best LS. Is the newest LS. The speaker grills. I love this car. It's just that the market doesn't exist for it anymore. The market just doesn't exist for it anymore. But if you want to buy a used one, I got a plan for you to do it. Dude, go on the site. We've sold some of that LS 500. Type in LS space 500. They're so true. Or LS with it, yeah. 33 Gs, this was a year ago, 42.5. These are incredibly impressive cars to own and operate. Click on that one. Look at the interior. I know, if it has the speaker grills, they're so cool. It's a beautiful interior. Remember how they had folded cloth on the door panels? I'm telling you, this is a really nice car that's going to last forever. And we're selling them in the 30s, which also speaks to the market demand. When did this car come out, 2018? Yeah, 2018. So it's also, we're also on year seven of the life cycle. It was time to either redesign or end, and we weren't going to redesign. Plus Toyota has the crown. They got the crown. And that really does it all. Okay, speaking of dead things, next news story. Ah, this isn't a dead thing. No, we got a bunch of dead news stories. We got a bunch of dead things. Okay, there was a report this week that for the next generation, Mazamiata, the NE, and the next generation, Scion Toyota 86 FRS, whatever they call it now, they, Mazda and Toyota are going to partner on this next generation two-seat sports car. The Mazda Miata will be a Toyota GR 86 BRZ Scion FRS. So the way that this report was framed was basically that GR Toyota will partner with Mazda on it. But really Mazda is developing the car. Toyota will sell it. The GR like management has made really clear that they are capable of building their own cars. They are capable of developing their own cars, but that they also think there's more room for some partnership. Well, and Toyota has a stake in Mazda. Sounds right. Toyota has, Toyota stake in Mazda. Toyota has a stake in everything. No. Most of Subaru, it's... No, they own part of Mazda. Toyota owns, give me it on AI, 5.1%. There is a reason to have a partnership. It makes sense. Here's one question I have. Does this mean we're done with BRZ? Are we just submitting it's over? Let's talk about it for a second. Hey now, hey now. Nice. Does what dreams are made of? Don't dream it's over. All right. It'll be sad. Are you aware that the starting in 2026, the BRZ, the base BRZ is $5,000 more than the base GR86. And are you aware that the base BRZ starting in 2026 is more expensive than a base Mustang? Okay, Mustang MSRP is 34 for an EcoBoost. The BRZ starts at 35.8. Yeah, so a Mustang is cheaper than a BRZ. But what's the... Content differences? Subaru is cutting out their premium trim, which is their base trim. And it's only gonna have limited and the other one. I gotta tell you though, on base to base, I might prefer a BRZ. But what do you spend, if you're going for the base model, wouldn't you spend $5,000 less than just get the BRZ? Okay, fine. Like 35 grand is my number. Base Mustang or a really nice BRZ. The BRZ drives really well. But it's also such a smaller, less powerful view. Well, I would get a GR86. Right, for 30. Because it's becoming clear to me that Subaru maybe doesn't wanna be a part of this anymore. Is also their only non-all-wheel drive car? They should make a Daihatsu. They should, because Toyota owns all those... Or has a stake, I don't wanna say owns. Has a stake in Mazda, Subaru, and Daihatsu. They should do a Daihatsu version. Right, with a great sporting lineage. They definitely should add to it. And where are they selling the Daihatsu version? It matters to us. It matters to us? First off, the whole world matters to us. I wanna say hello to our readers in Senegal. Watchers. Yeah, watchers too. Look at that 9.3 turbo model. We'll come back to it. But regardless, the next generation, I expected the next generation Mazda Miata will be a true successor to this Mazda Miata. Just the GR86 will, I think, feel different than it does right now. Because it'll be built in part of the Mazda. I'm cool with this. These cars make sense to pair up. The obviously, the big difference, and I'm curious how they'll address this, is the coupe convertible thing. Now, the Supra is a coupe and the Z4 is a convertible. So maybe that's just what they'll do again. Right. Who knows? Maybe the Toyota version will be better. It's interesting and it makes sense, and I'm here for it. These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight rear-wheel drive cars in existence. Although you might as well put them together. You know what nobody cared about? The Fiat 124, which was also Miata. Well, it was uglier with the worst powertrain. Yeah. Well, that's that. And it had that horrible body line on the front fender. I did have that. It was a rough one. Give us the next thing. This is a dead news story. The Acura ZDX is dead. It's been around for like a year. How's it dead already? I want to say something about this. Yeah. It came out. We like barely covered its arrival a year ago. But why would we have? Who cares? Yeah. I think we moved very quickly through it, if we're honest. It's actually kind of funny because it was only on sale for one model year. The new ZDX was even a bigger failure than the old ZDX, which is hard to believe because the old ZDX was famously a failure. It's like known as like a famous automotive failure, even though it looks exactly like a Model Y. You see a lot of ZDX's near-accurate dealerships in places where low lease deals are attractive. Yeah. I mean, that was the only way they could get rid of these was low lease deals. And today, which we'll cover in a second, the federal EV incentive is gone. And not coincidentally, Acura has announced that the ZDX is no longer on sale. You're going to see some of these EVs come off the market with the end of the federal incentive because the only way some of these cars were selling was incentivized lease deals. And the automaker themselves cannot afford to prop up leases at that level. I think the interesting thing here is obviously the ZDX for people that don't know is based on the Blazer EV. The Blazer EV is also the Honda prologue is also Blazer EV. So Acura didn't invest that much effort in building this. I mean, they re-styled it. The interior and exterior are different. I think the interior still uses GM's infotainment in part. Yeah. Oh yeah. So they didn't go all in on building an EV. No. It'll be interesting to see what their takeaway is. Is that about the EV market? Is it about not having a competitive entrance in the EV market? Is it maybe we shouldn't use the Blazer EV as our base? The condom told me straight up that prologue is named that because it's like the prologue to what will be great EVs in the future. Is the ZDX what will be a great EV in the future? I'm just disappointed. This is another example of my Honda rant from a few weeks ago. I'm just disappointed at the level, at the approach they're taking to these new segments. They just seem so committed to their core that they're afraid to try anything or do anything. And they've been developing this EV with Panasonic. They have the Afila, which is Sony. Afila. The Sony Afila is a Honda Sony collaboration. But it's taken years. Yeah. We're all waiting. Prologue is gonna be epilogue here in a minute. Nice. Nice. Nice. I'm thinking about that all week. I know where to go after that. Yeah, no. I don't know. It's an interesting situation. You're gonna see some of these EVs coming off the market after the EV incentive goes away. This is just the first casualty. The ZDX looks good though. It looks good. It is good. It is in the car. The Blazer EV is a good EV. It's just too expensive and not particularly compelling and too expensive for the range and performance that it offers. It's hard to justify without significant incentives. And Acura was throwing in a bunch of cash on it as was the federal government. Now if some of it's gone away, Acura can't fill the rest of the hole. The car is gone. Yep. We will not miss it. Wow, one modeling. We won't miss it. And I'll tell you, this is gonna become like the Blackwood. Like we're gonna, in 10 years, we're gonna be like, I saw a ZDX today. That's a great point. There are a lot of those. Yeah. Such a good point. Speaking of, when was the last time you saw an original ZDX? That's not that old a car. Rarely. It was like nine, 10, 11. Rarely. I would freak out. Better car. You'd freak out? I would. Wow. You remember the Honda version? The Honda, the Accord Cross Tour was not related to ZDX. All right, go to our next news story. I get why you think that, but you know better. Another car that's dead. No, I'm kidding. This is very much alive. It's very much alive. For now. The new Cayenne EV. This is pretty exciting, I have to say. Isn't it? We've been talking about how unexcited we are by the Cayenne EV. It's cool. I made you both watch a video, but no, I've not watched it. The video is cool. It's great. There's this German fella who's on YouTube. Not me, by the way. It's a well-known German publication. Yeah, it goes auto build or whatever. They go through it. It's not auto builds. I don't participate in German language, okay? Can I help with that? I only know about Berlin. Oh, and Frankfurt. And Cologne. Okay. Speaking name of cities. That's the extent of his German language ability. I was hoping he would start with Cologne and just go through the engines. But this thing looks cool as hell. Do you have the interior picture? Yes. So the big talking point about the car is the screen in the middle, which to my understanding, you can have a couple of different options. This is the full screen. You can have less screen if you want specifically. He mentioned American buyers, we're interested in that. But it has a bend in it. It flows. The screen is literally curved. Yeah. And it's curved. And it's OLED, which is awesome. So I think that is so cool. It's so cool. It is so legitimate. Also, I think the car looks good. They haven't revealed photos. I don't understand this. I don't understand how this video exists. It's like a few videos. It's a key on challenges. Autogolfolt is like a real German, like automotive video. There are a few videos already about it. Yeah. But there's not like good press photos yet. Like this is the photo. The previous photo doesn't really show how the car looks. I can tell you though, I'm kind of surprised it looks nice. And this is the first to... Well, I see that. I'm sorry Porsche designer. No, I think the Cayenne has always looked nice. Truly even the O3. But I see I'm surprised because since 11, the Cayenne is basically look the same. They've done redesigns that to me looked like facelifts. If we're gonna really call it what it is. And honestly, it's gotten uglier with each iteration. This one looks different and it looks good. The rear end I like. The rear end is cool. The side profile is cool. The performance powertrain must be insane. It was crazy. So this was the turbo model that he reviewed and it had 1,000 horsepower and 1,005 Newton meters of torque. 1,000. Porsche is going to 1,000? Damn. That's what it... That's what it said. Take that and go ahead. But it's zero to 60 in less than three seconds. Yeah. You should be faster than that. I'm trying to remember because it was all in kilometers. The base model 500 horsepower, the turbo will exceed 1,000 horsepower. It was not. He hit it on the Autobahn. It was wild. Zero to 60 in under three seconds. Are we excited about the Cayenne electric now? No, it's not gonna sell well. I think it's gonna sell well. It's gonna be radically overpriced. It's gonna be a total flop. But I'm more into it than I was. And I'll tell you this, I loved the Mcconny V. I think it's great. The volume expectations are too high. I think there's a lot of mistakes around that car. However, it drove fantastically. And I bet this will be even better. And it'll be a great luxury SUV too. Porsche makes a good luxury SUV. I mean, like I said, even I liked it. Like they had some manual controls in here, which I like for basic things. And I also thought the other thing to talk about is that it has inductive charging. What car other than... It does? Yes, yes. It has inductive charging. A huge pad that you can drive over and it will charge it. Slowly. Well, but it has it. I mean, the only other car I could think of that has this is the McLaren Speedtail. So I think that's amazing that what will be a mass produced car will have that. What I've always been told, from every automaker I've asked the question to is, the car requires too much charging and it can't be done. There's heat, there's loss. It doesn't work. Like your phone, the car has so much more energy requirements than your phone that inductive charging doesn't work. And maybe it will. I'm very curious to see how it works. It'll be hot, I bet. Oh, yeah. Well, yes. And if the Germans feel that it can be done, then there must be something too. But I think that's one of the big talking points about the car. Can I say something like Ken and you said before we started filming today, which was you were excited by the configurability of the menus. Yes, so on the menu you get to like... No, I don't wanna know more. I just wanted people to know that you specifically said that. I thought it was cool because like this little section tilts. And so if you are like in maps or whatever, you can slide up and choose a bunch of different things that you can adjust on here, climbing controls or whatever. And from the top also, you can do the same thing. I've never thought I'd see the day when Ken was excited about... Well, the integration of it is really nice. And the fact, again, I just love the... I'm excited about the whole car. We've talked to this podcast before about how we are car enthusiasts and are not the biggest fan of EVs in the enthusiast space. However, for a luxury vehicle, for a luxury SUV, an EV is a perfectly fine thing. And Porsche, the Taycan was excellent, the Makani V is excellent. The market is not necessarily there. But the cars have been great. And I think this looks like a fantastic iteration. Very curious to see how it actually is. 27, they say, is the model year. So we'll see it next year. I also like that slightly longer than the gas version. I thought that was kind of an interesting... But it fits in the luxury thing. Third row dreams. Oh, wow. There's supposed to be a larger SUV from Porsche coming. Yeah, supposedly. We'll see. Think you need big money or hours in the kitchen to make a great dinner at home? Nope, wrong. That's why I love every plate. You're getting restaurant quality meals at home, like crispy buffalo ranch chicken or cheesy Mexican street corn hash. The value is insane. It's actually cheaper than groceries and way less than takeout. The recipes are super easy to follow and can be ready in about 30 minutes, which is perfect if you're tired of making the same thing on repeat. And since the menu changes every week and gets delivered to your door, you'll never stress about what's for dinner again. For me, I always have stuff going on, cleaning the M5, playing tennis, long beach walks with Emily, which is why it's nice to have one part of life that is just simple. Every plate makes dinner easier, cheaper, and way better. So what are you waiting for? Dig into flavor-packed meals that your household will love. New customers can enjoy the special offer for only $1.99 a meal. Go to everyplate.com slash podcast and use the code CARS199 to get started. Applied as a discount on the first box, limited time only. Next new story, please. I, speaking of dead, we spoke a couple of weeks ago about how Jaguar Land Rover is in the middle of this like IT nightmare situation. They were hacked, held for ransom. They had to shut down all of their UK factories. They couldn't pay any suppliers. They just, we have good news. We have two pieces of good news. One is that last week, the UK government backstopped $2 billion in loans, 1.5 billion pounds, to $2 billion just about in loans for Jaguar Land Rover. They might be seeking $2 billion additional from private banks. This was money from private bank backstopped by the government. So they have money now. They have run out of money because they couldn't build cars. Also, after being shut down since August 29th or August 30th, they were able to restart some of their computer systems and they could pay their suppliers once again. Which is good because otherwise the suppliers would all have gone out of business because they need the revenue every month to pay employees. Okay, so they're gonna take the money from this loan and use it to pay suppliers that are not currently supplying? Well, they are still supplying. Just there's no factory going. There's no cars going through the factory line. They had to send it back. I would argue then that they're not currently supplying. The UK government, the British government's biggest concern was that a bunch of smaller companies, Ibrin, would not get paid, would not be able to pay their employees and would have a cascading effect because obviously automakers rely heavily on other suppliers. They're not actually vertically integrated with a couple of exceptions. And so they rely heavily on those and they need to pay those for the parts that they receive. Right. Or for other R&D work that's happening or whatever, maybe. And they've also, by the way, restarted production partially. Oh, really? Yep. So maybe this is the end of that story. You know what this teaches us? And all they do is owe a couple of billion dollars to the government. What this teaches us? No computers. Go back to typewriters and smoking in offices. Go back to the Mad Men era. Yeah. No computers. What do you think of that? I am not in favor of that. We run a company that is pretty driven by computers. Oh, I forgot. Yeah. I forgot. This is the problem with this podcast. I'm not able to freely think because cars and bids is always, it's always up there. I also mean we are on computers. People are watching on their computer. To the computerless age. And I'm saying that, I'm giving that great opinion, but cars and bids comes in and says, no, no, we need computers to function. You want to build stuff like we do with the Kuntosh? We got to make a pod where we can just say what we think. But then how are people going to get it? Is there an anti-computer? They'll come, we'll stand in the square and they'll go here, here, here. The podcast from the town square. What an idea. Which the state of California has ruled is like the target parking lot slash the grocery store parking lots. Right. Modern town square. The modern town square. Okay, that's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how that goes. Of course, this is the biggest news story of the week. Glad we put it seventh. What a federal EV incentive is gone. We're filming this on Wednesday, October 1st. Wednesday, October 1st. It is D-Day. No, no, yes, Drew. Yeah, I don't, yes, maybe. If you manufacture bad electric cars, this is D-Day. In general, okay, here's where things get agreed. So for a long time, the federal government has been offering incentives of up to $7,500 towards purchases of EVs. These were income tested. So you had, if you were making above a certain amount of money, you could not, you would not qualify. But leases, which are not sold to you, are sold to the leasing company, did qualify. And there are a bunch of rules, right? The vehicle had to be made in the US or with substantial US parts. There were a bunch of rules. It's one of the great stories, how they cheated their way around this. The Biden administration decided no more blanket, no more blanket EV tax credit. We're just gonna do it only for people who make less than a certain amount of money, because that's what the Libs do. So that's what they did. But then they realized the lease company can take the full tax credit and apply it to the lease. And so that's anybody who bought EVs before, which was nobody, then nobody bought EVs. Then it only made sense to lease them because then you could still get the tax credit, no matter how much money you made, because the leasing company was the buyer of the vehicle. And this is the problem with legislation. We should have none of it. No legislation, no computers. No computer, no. I like that. That's a good platform. But the incentive is dead. There are a few states that are still doing their own state version in Colorado's one. California is not, and the governor of California has explicitly said that this is all Mary Barrow, the GMCO's fault. Newsom said it was Mary Barrow's fault that the EV incentive went away. His rationale is Mary Barrow specifically petitioned heavily to have against there being fuel economy restrictions, and he has tying that to that, which is fair and also not fair. Doesn't really matter. But here's where it gets interesting. So there's a few automakers that are trying different things to still sell EVs. By the way, EV sales in September and in Q3 generally, incredibly strong. There's a few companies that have reported numbers, and their EV sales, Hyundai Q, is one of them. Ford is one of them. GM, I think, is also reported. The thing that's important, remember those cars specifically, is that those cars are especially dependent on this deal. So the Ionic 5, which is a $40,000 car, right? A little more than that car, though. Yeah, cheap ones. Cheap ones are like high 30s, low 40s. $7,500, least incentive, is 20% of the value of that car. That's a big deal. Rivian R1S, it's not as important to people. So that's where it gets interesting. So let's use the Ionic 5 as an example. Hyundai announced today, the day after the incentive end, that they will continue their own $7,500 incentive for a month. And then in 2026, prices fall by as much as $10,000. So they are lowering Ionic 5 prices by about the amount of the incentive. Interesting. Or if not more, which is interesting. What about Mach-E? I don't think they care that much about Mach-E sales anymore. I'm just kind of done with that. It's old. Yeah. But the other automakers are trying different things. GM has taken an approach in the last week, which has basically been, hey, dealership, you can buy the car before the month ends, and then sell it to somebody else later. They've been quite explicit about it. In other words, they can take the incentive. I mean, they can take the incentive as long. But I do think we'll see Tesla, by the way, has increased their lease prices because the incentive no longer applies. That makes sense. It'll be interesting to see what ultimately happens. This is going to have a real effect on the less of price EVs. EVs, EV sales, which are already milk toast this year, generally. They are milk toast this year. Anything but milk toast. They are the highest they've ever been. Yeah, but they're barely rising. I looked at the numbers the other day. In Q2, they were down. Well, like Q3. Q3, boy, are they up. Well, I bet your Q4 won't be so strong. Q4 is likely to be a little weak. But automakers, I think, on the low price ones know that prices, how they're competing. Hyundai knows that they're selling Ionic 5s instead of a Model Y because the price is competitive. And so they will take losses to keep selling them. But think about what you're saying. I mean, that's not a long-term business strategy. They already have developed the car. It's already on sale. They have to kind of keep going with it. In some way that they can, they probably have commitments to Korean unions or suppliers or whatever. They're going to make this number of cars. They got to get the cars out, even if it's profitless. But do you see a future for these cars? Who the hell knows? Without the incentive was an important component of these cars succeeding. And this is an example. We've been talking about this a lot in this pod. By not creating the incentive, the automakers are not incentivized to innovate in this space. And as a result, other companies, other countries that have these incentives, cars will innovate more. 1970s. It's not that. I mean, it's like that. Like, I know that there's the current government as a political stance against EVs. And I'm not exactly an EV. I own one. But we want our country and our companies of our country to innovate. And we have been allowing them to with this. And this is a sad, I think it's sad. Jim Farley is being perhaps the most vocal in interviews. He had an interview with The Verge earlier this week, where he basically said, it's OK that the customer level, consumer level, EV inside of his going away. But we need that. We're working really closely with the Trump administration to find ways to continue some of the other incentives. Because there are incentives to build the batteries in the US, which Hyundai and Ford have benefited from greatly. And they would need those incentives to continue to invest any money in EVs. Right. I get that there's a political bluster to this whole thing. Like, oh, we want our gas cars back. Screw EVs. That's what the liberals drive. But you will see where this is going in 10 or 15 or 20 years. We all know that this is a reality of the situation. And by not having American companies continue to innovate, you're going to end up with America behind. And in 20 years, you might see Chinese cars on these streets. Like, I mean, the Koreans, in 86, when Hyundai showed up, it was a joke, the original Excel. No one ever thought it would be competitive. And these people work hard. And they develop. And eventually, these things started to come up and take bites out of our own US auto industry. And in some cases, they start building here, which is great. But it's just something to consider. Whenever you talk about, oh, screw EVs, there's more to this than that. You can't be purely isolationist. Another reason that we shouldn't have legislation, or maybe I'm saying that we should now. Tough. You figure it out. OK. We have many other. Yeah, of course. There's one more story, which is a quick little hit. Ford Mustang. Jim Farley said in that same interview that there are more Mustang, Mustang this Mustang, not Mustang Mach-E. I totally disagree. Not Mustang Mach-E. He didn't say that. I've looked at the data since then. There's the quote. There are more Mustang sales outside of the US of the current generation Mustang, whatever that one's called. What's it called? The new Mustang. No, there hasn't. We call it. We say new Mustang. Right. Until it's not new anymore. There is a new name. There is a name. There are more sold outside of the US in the US in the current generation. You know, this is fun fact. Floan. Here we are, bringing Cologne into the. Apparently, Australia and Sweden or Finland or something are the largest outside of the US markets. Can I ask you a question? Do you think this is the only picture ever taken in Germany that has a new Mustang and a Supra in it? What the hell are the odds of that? Mark 8. Yeah, but that makes sense. The Germans don't buy the American or Japanese. That's a nerve wring thing. I think you got a pretty good shot. OK, so Farley said that the Mustang is selling more outside the US than in. I think he includes the Maki. He does not. And you cannot throw a stone in Copenhagen and not hit a Maki. You cannot walk out of your house in Oslo and not bump into a. I'm not screwing around. They are everywhere in those places. It was not fully clarified, but. He did clarify. In that interview, but additional news stories have referred specifically to the S650 Mustang, which is what that one is. The S650 and other new Mustang models. Additional news stories from who? Reputable or non-reputable? Both. So you got the Maki and then the gaspan Mustang. Yeah, we're selling more Mustangs out of the US. Well, yeah, you're selling Maki's in Oslo where the purchase price of a Maki is $11. People want the American Mustang, the nameplate. They didn't say which. The quote directly is, we're investing a lot in Mustang. I think the people don't get about Mustang. That's a global car. It's the best selling sports coupe in the world. We outsell Mustang out of the US, then inside the US. Sports coupe. But they're like Mercedes Benz with the GLE coupe. Hey, this car pod, you know I'm all about value, whether it's my Porsche Carrera GT or a quirky Nissan Morano Cross Cabriolet that makes you do a double take. But today, let's talk about a different kind of asset, acre gold. Inflation is hitting harder than a V10 at Redline. Gas prices, parts, even your average car wash is way up. So if you're worried about where to put your money, acre gold lets you invest in real 24-carat gold bars, starting at just a few bucks a day. It's like buying a classic car that never rust, never needs repairs, and always shines no matter what. The price of gold is up over 40% from last year, 40%. And here's the best part, acre is easy. Just pure shiny gold shipped straight to your door. They're really onto something with this, a solid, reliable investment that you can actually hold in your hand, and a fun thing to show your trustworthy friends. So head to getacregold.com. Protect your money, keep it golden. That's getacregold.com. All right, now back to this car pod. All right, bring on, we got no more new stories. Okay, we have a talk of cars, and I want to talk cars. I got a lot of talk cars today. I got two big stories. You want the pie? Yeah, bring the 993. We're gonna have some reels that result from this. All right, I have two things to say. Ken and I want you to listen up, and listen very closely. I heard about this on the podcast last week. You watched? I listened. Listen to the part where I said you wouldn't listen. Yes, I did. But it's beautiful to see it in person. Okay, we got this 993 turbo. I'm gonna cover that in a second. First, I want to say something. The Countache is back from service. There it is. It's sitting behind me, and it's got an oil change and some fluid flushes, and there was a nail in a tire, and this is minor stuff, two grams, what it costs. That car, two things. That car is driving beautifully right now. Bobba left did the service here in San Diego. They're up in Miramar or something. Maybe Kourtney May, so no one knows. And, it's Miramar. They got, we walk in there, they got 10 Muras, it's incredible. Bobba left did the service, two grand. The car has never run better. It runs beautifully. Is that what having an oil change does? Right, exactly. Here's the thing for all you Countache, I'm gonna say two things for all you Countache, this is the bomb I'm gonna drop today for all you Countache people. Number, all the haters. Oh, the Countache is so unreliable. The time between the last service I did in this service is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life between services, 655 days. How many miles? That's a long time. 2000 miles. Wow, that's legitimately a lot for a Countache. Two years? I mean, maybe. Two full years? A lot of them, you know, a lot of them are serviced, sit around for a decade, and then are serviced again. Some people it's actually, it's even longer. Well, I've been driving mine and I drive it at least once a week. And that brings me to the big bombshell I'm gonna drop today. And that's when I'm prepared to make my favorite car that I own is my Countache. There it is. That's not true. It is. Your best car. You think the Creer GT is the best and Countache is your favorite? My favorite car that I own is my Countache. How long can we hold you to that statement? It has evolved over time and is now, I am now for sure on it. Wow. I love the Creer GT dearly. I'm not, this is not me announcing I will sell it, although I do, it will someday, I promise. But the Countache is my favorite car that I own. I just love the car. I love how it looks. I love how it drives. I love using it. I love everything about it. I have it up in my left and when it comes down, I'm like, oh man, this is gonna be a good day. Well, I can't believe we're finally aligned. That's always been my favorite car of yours. And it is so cool. It is just the best car. And all this crap, I think one of the things that depresses Countache values, which is wonderful by the way, because I love the fact. Yeah, yeah, cheap car. It should be more. But I think one of the things that depresses the values is that there is this reputation for unreliability and the fact that the car drives poorly. My experience has been the exact opposite. You know, the first year I had it, I was like worried every time I took it anywhere. And I was like, what is that noise? What is it? And now I'm into year two, and I'm actually into year three already. Never been any problems. And there could be, but like the fact that I've already made it two and a half years, like we're doing pretty well. And it's just so fun to use. It's so, I drive every car in the world, every car, right? With the press cars and the cars in the office. And this is just the most fun car. I think it hinges on a couple of things. It's fun to use because yours has been so reliable. Thanks to George Evans, who did the major service on it. And you've had the reliability mods done to the engine. So it has been reliable. And in fairness, every time I've started it for the summer, it starts so easily every time it is a champ. I would trust that car. Absolutely. To drive it some distance actually. Yeah. But you know, obviously had it been one that needed service, this experience would be dramatically different. Except that because of who I am, I would have paid. Sure. I would have paid up. If George had told me that it needed Evans in Ohio, greatest Lamborghini mechanic in the world, unless I'm standing in front of Bobble after that. The two of them though, I'm so thrilled I have. That's Bobble, the best oil changer for a business Lamborghini. He did a good job though. And they did it quick and they were very committed. Wonderful. Obviously, I love Evans dearly. He did $50,000 in service in the car when I first bought it. If he had told me it was $150, I would have done it. And you know what? I bet you it would be driving just as well. I just think that this car is extra special in my mind because of its, when I first bought it, I was very uncertain about its upgrades. It has forged pistons, it has a bored motor. But Bill, yeah, I got a built motor in my Countache. But because of those things, I truly believe the car drives better. I wouldn't, I would not be surprised if that's the case. So my question then is this, is it the Countache specifically, or I mean, this is your first older car? I don't know. Like with the carburetor. I will say because of this car, I have started to consider older cars. I've never been an old car guy. Same. And I've been surprised. I've loved this car so much. I'm not not looking at Daytonas. I'm not not looking at Othinos. I don't have a huge interest in those cars, but my interest is 10X where it used to be. It really is. That's so interesting. I suspected it would be if this car had any, had any modicum being reliable. I gotta tell you, I bought this car, I was on Intel, I was in the summer, I was not around it, I didn't see it, it was in Canada. And I had it shipped here. I didn't see the car for the first month that it was here. There was some work done to it. And I showed up to, you were there, and I showed up to pick it up from Elite Finish, the shop where I sent it. Shout out Kevin. I showed up and I drove it home and I thought to myself, this was a mistake. I shouldn't have done this. I'm gonna regret this and I'm gonna sell this car in a year. And because it's so different from a modern car and it's so different from anything I'd used to, but I've gotten used to it and I love it. I have fallen deeply in love and it is my favorite car. Do you still, when was the last time you used second gear? I don't use second. It's occasionally. The Syngro in second is notoriously, it's mine's fine now, cause it's brand new, cause Evan's put a new one in. But he said to me, he said, Doug, he said, when you, second gear, only use it when it's warmed up. That's what he said when I, when I took out the car. But the problem is there's no trans temp dial. So I had no idea when it's warmed up. So I just decided, you know what, it's never warmed up, never gonna use it. Let's not write. You should use it. It's like, if you- I use it when the car gets really warm. Like if I've been driving for 20, 30 minutes, it's obviously warm, I use it then. It's not that long. Usually after about five minutes or so, it's getting. I don't want to take a risk. I don't want to take a risk. He said the Syncros are pretty weak. And so like he said, I mean, it's not like every year you got to replace it, but like 10, 15 years, it's gonna need it. You can tell, cause it will not want to go into second. But after a while, like if it feels good going from third to fourth, like you can start to use second. Oh, you think that's the- Yeah, like I mean, my experience with older cars is like the Italian ones in particular, on all of them, like that 308 that's sitting behind you, like it doesn't like second gear. So you go from first to third, my 355. I do that with my, I do that with the Kroger T. You do it for just a little bit. Like, I mean, that car, there's so much oil, like both in the sump for the engine and then also for the transmission, it does take longer to warm up. But usually like if you're going on a longer drive, like if you're driving it to cars and coffee, like it would be warm, like you could use it then by the time you got there. Yeah. Which is about 15 minutes. By the time I get off the freeway in Rancho Santa Fe and I'm on that career road, I do use second. That's, then you're doing it right. That's exactly right. The makes me want other Lambos, I will say. Like I- Really, like a, what like a- Older, Merseys stick and Diablo. The three. I don't want them. I don't want to be a Lambo guy. I never saw myself as a Lambo guy. Who wants to be a Lambo guy? I know. But they're just, it's just so, it's such an amazing car. It is. You're driving it around, you're having an unbelievable experience. You're giving this incredible experience to people around you who are so excited. This is like a life, like you talk to adults and they say, I still remember where I was as a kid when I saw a Countach on the street. Yeah. You know? And like this is, this is so cool. It's just cool to be part of it. I love it. My favorite car that I own. Well, I'm excited that it has opened the back catalog of some of these great iconic vintage cars to you. Maybe. And it is a very special car. On that subject, do you want to, should we talk about the 993 Turbo situation? Yes, sure. This is, last week on the pod, I announced very strenuously that I was ready to buy another car. It's been, it's been over two years since I've, Wow. Yeah. It's been over two years since I bought a car. I bought my Sequoia like eight, nine, 20 months ago, but I don't really count it daily. It's been over two years since I bought a fun car, which was the Countach at the end of 23. I bought it in the summer of 23. And I have for years, for years since then, sworn to be off cars. I'm off cars, don't wanna get one. So you could. Last week on the pod, I was strenuously said I was ready. I'm ready to get back on cars and get a 993 Turbo. And I found one. And I found a nice one. And then I don't want to get into the particulars yet. This is still ongoing, but not very ongoing. But I found one and the, I've discovered, I do a lot of due diligence when I buy a car. And I discovered that the odometer had been rolled back. And odometer issues is a problem on 993s in general. They all fail. And the question is, can you catch it right away, get it fixed and just keep it climbing? Or do you roll it back? This particular car had been rolled back. Yeah. And I'm not actually opposed to buying a rollback. But it changes the value. But it changes the value. And I haven't caught up with the seller of the vehicle yet, but I have a suspicion we're not going to be in agreement. Meanwhile, this is a story I haven't told you on the pod. Wow, this is a story I heard. However, six months ago, I came to an agreement with a seller, dealer, about on an F40. A F40. We agree on a price. You know this whole story. You know what I mean? It's like you don't know. We agreed on a price. Turned me for good radio. And I was ready to do it. And a couple of days later, the dealer backed out of the price they had agreed on. Yeah. And I'm not going to say anything more about either situation, but I will say this. Both of these situations remind me that buying a vehicle is hard unless you use cars and bags. Yes. Well done. It's annoying. It's true. It is true. That 993 turbo is an interesting case. Cause if it had been on our site, you would have posted all these pictures, all these service records, which is how I discovered it. Cause there were service records that had mileage in excess of the current odometer. And I know I should have bought that car. It was tuned and at 996 wheels, but like we could have had so much fun with cold ones, putting it back to stock. That's so true. With some money, this car could have gone back to stock. Well, more or less. More or less. I just, it's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want to buy a car at. Like I will buy, I will pay up, I will buy a car, but I make sure, I like really do a lot of diligence if I can. And you know, car facts and look carefully at the service records. Like I opened up an Excel document and wrote down all the records and what they did and you know, the years and when and where. And I'm looking at plate numbers to determine how when the car was sold to this owner and all that. And really, honestly, on our site, really great sellers will go to the trouble of doing this for you. Like they'll have laws. And if they don't, the comments will suss it out. And that's what would have happened on our site if the car had gone up. And same with that F40, that you know, it would have been bid to the value, which was the value I agreed to with the dealer. And you know, that would have been that. You are entrant, you as a buyer for cars of this caliber are not trying to get a deal. Yeah, I'm not trying to get a deal. I want to pay retail. You want to play market correct price. I don't even care. I'll pay over. Cause when I get in my head, I want a car, I get, I like want a car. You also want to know about the car. You want to know what you're getting into. That's the thing that annoyed me about the rollback. It has become clear to me that the seller is the one who rolled the odometer back to the previous car fax. Well, that's good. He rolled it back to the previous car fax number, but didn't take into account service records that show how to progress. That had been afforded car max. And it's like, dude, if you would just, you don't understand like, and some buyers aren't like this and would have much rather had the lower mile car with the rollback and not known. But it's like, dude, if you had just not rolled it back, everything would have been better. You know, like, yeah, the car would have a higher mileage, but then I wouldn't have a TMU issue, true mileage unknown. And I'm still interested. I'm still a buyer. But now you got a car with who knows how many miles, a TMU car, it's less valuable than it would have been if you hadn't tried to fake it. And it's just so frustrating. Both to deal with this. You understand why some of these sellers don't sell on cars. And I mean this sincerely, and this is not intended to be an ad for cars and bids. You can say about bringing trailers as well. I'll cop to it. You understand why some of these sellers don't want to sell on the auction platforms because the commenters are sophisticated enough that they will point this crap out. And I don't like, I don't like buying cars that are really available. I don't like people's like looking back at my buy. I like to buy like a privately offered car. But the auction sites have some real benefits. They really do. And also you have a seller that is serious. The data 40 seller, clearly not serious with wasting everybody's time. Wasting everyone's time, including his own. I lost three hours to that guy and I lost three hours to the 993 guy. Your time valuable. Which is, yeah, that's more upsetting than anything else. I'm not losing three more hours. Okay? Well, no car for you. Listen, I'm gonna make the plea again. I want an 993 turbo. I want an arena 993 turbo. Like this, US car. Is that arena? If you have one. No rollbacks. I don't even care if it has a rollback. Just disclose. If it has a rollback disclose, so we can come to the right number. I want a US car 993 turbo. I'm ready to buy mid miles. Mid miles. Yeah, we just keep focusing. Here, here, can I try a transition? Yeah. If you have a 993 turbo, if you do, come to Ken and I at next weekend at Rotolana where we'll be at Imsa's Petit Le Mans race with a paddock cars and coffee. Thank you. Folks, this is the most exciting event of the year. I am so sad I'm not gonna be there. If by some ungodly reason, Imsa allows us to continue this partnership next year, I will come to this event. I hope so. Then we can go walking in Atlanta after. Atlanta is my favorite place. Not close to Atlanta. No, but it's close enough. Atlanta is my favorite place. Filippo and Ken are gonna be at Rotolana, which is in Brasilton, home of Panaz. Really? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. Somebody's coming with a Panaz that makes sense now. There you go. Yeah. We're gonna have a car corral, a cars and coffee, the entirety of the 10 hour race in the paddock. So you'll be set up if you are bringing your car, because you've posted in community, we've invited you. You will be set up there next to all the race teams. If you're just coming to the race, come say hi to us, come hang out in a space. We will have coffee, we'll have Ken and... We'll have Filippo. Ken and coffee. Ken and coffee. This is a great event. This is gonna be so much fun. You can go and see Ken in person. You can ask him about Emily, his girlfriend in person. And her CRT, which will not be it. Her CRT, she's got a CRT screen. Yeah, three CRT. I will also say in general, in the race is very fun to attend. Can I ask you a question? They're really fun. Two questions, yes. This is a 12 hour race, right? 10 hour race. 10 from 12, 30 p.m. Am I gonna be the entirety of the race? Yeah. Or 10, 10. Of course. No way, really? Yes. Oh, wow, that is crazy. What do you mean really? Second. And I'm... I'll be there for a long way in 10 hours. This is me just hoping. Will you wear your giraffe shirt? We'll think about it. Will you please? I'll think about it. You can wear other cars and bids merch. Like you can put a sticker on your shirt or something. I'll think about it. Oh, okay. He'll wear cars and bids merch. Anyway, the point is you should attend this event, Road Atlanta, IMSA, Petit Le Mans, the ultimate event on the IMSA calendar, as I recall. And the cars and bids one for now. That's our second IMSA event. Yeah, it's the... I'm really excited about this. Okay, welcome, Graycars. Are you ready for your next cool car? Sell your enthusiast car on cars and bids. Trading in your car to dealers means you aren't getting market value for your car, leaving you with less cash for your next fun car. Just look at our recent sales of these cool cars compared to current trade-in value. This is a trade-in offer, and this was the cars and bids result. This is a trade-in offer, and this was the cars and bids result. This is the trade-in offer, and this is the cars and bids result. Get started now on carsandbids.com. Sell on cars and bids and join the best community to sell your enthusiast car. Okay, final car segment is from Filippo. Filippo's going to talk to us about a car he's not going to purchase. Go ahead. Okay, I've interested in buying a car again. I'm back on buying cars-ish, and I've been thinking a lot about boxers, right? Because the boxers are good cars. Ken and I filmed a video a while ago on a Boxer Spider, a 91 Boxer Spider versus a 91 Base. And we kind of decided the 91 Base wasn't quite as powerful as we wanted, but a great platform, a great chassis, and a great car. Love the platform. Love the platform. So I've started considering the 91 Boxer as it's GTS's. But I also realized that 718 Boxers are the same price or cheaper than a 981. And it's a good motor. People say it's not a VET6, but it's still a VET. That's the question, right? So like, is it as bad, they're much cheaper for a convertible car. Like, are they undervalued, or is the fact that it's not a VET6, that it's that TurboFlat 4, legitimately a detractor? I think that you won't notice. Well, I do notice things about cars. Turns out. But I also think that no matter what you say, you will end up with a cheap hatchback. This is your MO. When you bought, think about this. Think about this. When you bought your E-Class wagon, we were hearing all these stories, you ended up with a cheap hatchback. When I bought my E-Class wagon, I bought an E-Class wagon. When you bought, yeah, but you were hearing all these stories about what you wanted. An E-Class wagon is what I wanted, what I bought. When you bought your 500-day bar, if you were looking at this, looking at that, I bought a convertible. You ended up with a cheap hatchback. Now, there's no hatch. Yeah, but it's a hatch. Now, then last time, see seven, nine, nine, seven, and you ended up with a cheap hatchback. A cheap hatchback. Should I buy a cheap one? What a GTI. A 718 Cayman is a cheap hatchback for the 981 Cayman. I will tell you this. If you're even barking up this tree, you're gonna end up with a tip 987. And then you're gonna be like, this was a disappointment. Well, a .2 is rare. That two would be good, actually. No, here's the thing. Go back to that. Caymans are a good example. A 981 Cayman, no, go back. Two pages. 718. Yes, go back. Okay, this 718 Cayman is a base Cayman, 50 grand. A 981 base Cayman with that miles is also 50 grand. You will never spend 50 grand on a car you're driving. This is laughable. It's hilarious. It's laughable. I have considered it. Should I consider a 718 or should I not? So I'm gonna speak to the general public, as opposed to Felico, who I do not think will ever buy a car of this nature. I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad rap because of the turbo four-cylinder. I think that it's like the Ferrari, the 458. The F8 comes with its turbo engine and people are like, oh, it's not as good. Well, folks, you're lucky it's not electric. Like, you know, like actually you're in a pretty good shape here and I think that this is a similar situation. This car still drives really well. It is an excellent car to drive. It's just not, yeah, it's not a flat six, but from a driving experience, I don't really notice it all that much. I think the turbo engine is great. I think they did a great job engineering it. Of course I would rather have a GTS4 or a GT4, but everyone would rather have the nicer version, you know? I'd rather have a Pagani Zonda than a Honda Accord. Right, that is the nicer version. Or just the Zonda. Strictly stair stepped up. The F Roadster. I just think these cars don't, I think for a general person, there's like this talk when you go to a car event, oh, the 718's a four-cylinder, it's not as good. I think that's said by people who haven't driven them. It's just, it is good. This is legitimately interesting to hear because it's more power than a 981. The chassis by all accounts is phenomenal. They're cheaper than a 981. They've depreciated a lot. The question is, will they depreciate? You kind of know what to expect from Porsche depreciation. The 718 seemed to be appreciating much more substantial than that. Will that continue or will it taper? Well, some would argue then if the 981 is depreciating less, it's gonna hold its value more than you should buy the 981. Unless you think that the 718 is at the bottom of its depreciation curve. Well, there's another component here, which is what do they do next? Because I think 718 depreciation curve stops if they do go full electric. Well, maybe. See, they said they were gonna go full electric on some versions. So if the Boxster becomes full electric next time, except for the GT4 and the Boxster Spider and the top versions, that probably will have a beneficial effect on the 718. And even more so on the 981. You get my point. Because this will be then the last gas powered one. Even if they do a GT4 RS next or a Spider RS next with a gas engine, like the base cars will, this will have been the end of the line. It's just hard to buy a sports car with four cylinders that didn't have it originally. Like the Lotus Alam was a four cylinder, had a four cylinder. Like the Miata, four cylinder. Eco was a four cylinder. With power. To be fair, these are not. These have power. It's 350 horses, right? Real power. Yeah, but then it sounds like a four cylinder. The sound is a part of it. I'm gonna just say something here. The little flat six. Not exactly. Not exactly a Courage GT. Well, I didn't say it was a Courage GT, but it sounds better than a pedestrian four cylinder. 2.7 liter flats thing. When we drove that base, like I thought the sound was a little bit fine. I thought it sounded fine. It sounds like a Porsche. It sounds like a Porsche. But I don't necessarily think. This sounds like a Subaru. Yeah, but like. Yeah, but it does. Neither car I'm buying for the sound. If I want a sound, I get a GT350 walk away. Well, that's part of the sports car experience is the sound. That's what you want to get. I don't. Anybody look at one of these cars by GT350. But if you don't want a GT350, which you should, the 718s are becoming really good deals. But what color will your your Golf RB? Okay, there's one interesting thing about these, which is no, we sell so we auctioned so few regular 718s. Yeah. We bought spiders as frequently as regular ones. And that's true across like the enthusiast sites. Enthusiasts definitely buy it. I hate to say this. I think that's it. I hate to say this because I don't want to make anybody feel bad out there. In this case, sometimes I'm willing to feel bad, but in this case, because I don't believe it to be true and it shouldn't be true. This turned out not to be a car that was bought by enthusiasts. It turned out to be a car that was bought by someone who wanted a Porsche, who wanted to spec out a car, who was maybe getting older, wouldn't have the chance again. It was not a car that ended up, mostly in enthusiast's hands. I think that is unfair. It's like the California. I think it is unfair. I think it is a very good enthusiast car. However, yes, it has ended up what you see on the enthusiast, on these sites is generally enthusiast selling to enthusiasts. And this car has not made its way. I'll still consider it. I'll think about it. It is a great car. And it is becoming a bargain. And that leads us to our market report, which is brought to you by the 993 Turbo. Especially if you have one for done. I want one. Find me. Send me a 993 Turbo. Rena Red, the market report. The U.S. We want to talk about, yeah, U.S. I want only Euro crap. I don't, if the Vin has a Z in it, I don't want anything to do with that. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand. Marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online, in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. That's such a deep cut. But it looks like an 18. Okay, the market report. We're talking about these getting cheap. Let's talk California. Yes, so we recently sold a Ferrari California with no reserve on cars and bids. It was this one and it sold for $65,000. With the Star Wheels. In Wisconsin. With the base, the early Star Wheels. Yes, now this car did have some issues admittedly. What were they? Go down. It was, what was it? 39th and that's it. There's a check engine light for the catalytic converter. There is a. Nine year old tires, CEL. The front suspension is leaking. There's wear on the infotainment screen and stuff like that. But scratches on wheels, crates, no problem. Driver seat doesn't function. It needs some work. How many miles? And it did have miles, 45,000 for a Ferrari. But my point is that. 65. The floor now has gotten to 65 grand for a dual clutch V8 powered relatively modern Ferrari. Say what you will, these cars drive great. They do. It's the 718 thing again. These cars drive amazingly. Right. And I understand there's some questions about the way the rear end in particular looks but they do drive well. Ugly cars get a lot cheaper as they depreciate. Or ugly cars get a lot prettier as they depreciate. They do. Like this car. This car was ugly at 175 in 08. At 65, I'm looking past a lot of its flaws. Yep. Yes. I agree with that. But I just, I could not believe like this. 65. The 360 was a bargain. Like we always like, that's what I think it was like a bargain. This car is the Mondial of the modern world. The difference being it drives really well. And actually Mondial's drive pretty well too. Yes. But this is a generally a good car. Legitimately a good car. Hey, can I have a photo for a second? Well, too late. But I just want to move it off. I would give you $5 right now if you can name that red car. I'll give you $5 right now if you can tell me how much. Horse parts. 480. 460. 480. How many gears does it have? It has seven. And you know what? That's a Buick Encore. GX. Yeah. Yeah. All right, I wasn't that far off. But anyway, I think that it is such a bargain. And I'm honestly, those flaws too. You buy the car, you put it on tarot, you fix none of them. Do you make $300? We rent it to go do cars. There you go. But that's it. But the next time you sit in the back of it, I'm not. No. No human, no adult can send the back of that car. That interior does look nice. You know, I got to tell you for 45,000 miles, that interior is held up well. Because one of my complaints about Ferrari is that they're not meant to be used all that much. It's like art. And so the cars just wear so much faster than like Porsches and other cars. Yeah. I don't know. It's pretty good. That looks pretty nice. Well, I mean, it looks good. That said, all the buttons, I'm sure, are sticky, and stuff doesn't function as it's designed. Chrysler Infotainment. Casually, the passenger seat just starts moving on its own. Ferrari's, that's just how they are. So specific. The ghost. That's the Ferrari way. I'm telling you, this is for 65. That's a pretty good car. Imagine you're sitting behind that steering wheel for 65. And it sounds like a Ferrari, and it goes like a Ferrari. Yeah. It ain't slow. It's got a V8. It's not like it's some plug-in hybrid four cylinder C63 crap. It's still an NAV. Yeah. It's not like a four cylinder 718. Speaking of cars that cost over 65, pull up the M5. All right, pull up the M5. OK, this past week, we auctioned a very low mile E60 M5. It was 3300 miles, but it was the SMG. Yep. And an early one. Launched the Snerro. And it fails to be reserved at 74. I will say, this is by far the highest public bid to amount or result that I found for automatic E60s. Folks, this is rare. We talk about Filippo's bringing up a car that didn't sell. We like to pretend during the market report that we sell all the cars. Well, reserved not net. We don't know what that means. But Filippo brought this up. Sure did. This is very impressive. It's a strong. Legitimately, it is the highest public result for an E60. Yeah. Didn't sell. We sometimes, especially when a car just has no comps, we just want to see what the market says. And also, who knows? How do we know? Who knows? Nobody knows. Sometimes these cars sell for a Green Cay and sell for 125. That feels like a lot of money for an SMG60M5. Well, and again, an 06. It's a pre-LCI car, too. So it's just the most desirable. But it is white, which is a rare car. Very rare. I don't know if I want to cut it loose if I were the seller. I know what they were looking for. I'm not going to announce. The prior record, by the way, was 60K for like a 10,000 mile car a year ago. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to know. How do you value it? Do you think it goes up? Maybe. Steaks will. The 30,000 mile stick? This would be twice the amount. Given that this was bid to 74 and the California is sold for 65, which would you rather have? The 0-mile E60M5 or driven California? An E60M5 that needs road bearings tomorrow anyway, and a manual swap. Or the California that needs everything. I don't know. I'd get the Cali in two seconds. I think it would. What am I going to do with a car with 3,000 miles? You can't use this keep it. You hope it appreciates. But will it? Like, is there a desire? It's special, obviously, because it's the only V10M5. Yeah. It's a tip. An F10M5 with 33 miles or an F90M5 with 33 miles is at this price, regardless. But it's just not. The SMG was. SMG's bad. It's weird to have the very best example of the least, the lesser desirable version. Yeah. You know, it's like the 1-mile EcoBoost or something. Like, what do you do? What do you do with that? I don't know. But I'll tell you, it was cool. We'll see this car come up. It was cool to look at the interior photos. You do not see them in this shape anymore. There will be a marker for this, and I'll tell you why. This 308 GTSI, this was the nicest version of the least desirable version of the 308. Two-valve fuel injector car really early. And it brought real money because it had 1,900 miles. Yeah. Yeah, but that's a Ferrari that has a specific look. Ferrari's a thing. Ferrari's a thing. And trans is a big factor. I think at some point, like, I can see this becoming something someone wants for a collection of the lowest mileage. But what if they want. Wouldn't you look for a stick? You look for a stick. You'd look for a stick. Although they're either. But they are all driven. That's the point of the stick, because that's what most you want. And that's also the point of the G version. But that's a G version. Well, to be honest, you're too afraid it's going to break. This was a very interesting auction. Yeah. I was surprised it got as high as it did. Surprised Seller didn't cut it loose, but at the same time, not that surprised. Seller made it more than we do. This car is very special. They may hope for more than we know with. E60 and 5s are still cool, man. I look at this picture of this one, and I'm like, this car still looks damn cool. Just aging so much. Those wheels, this car looks damn cool. It would be the best M5, no question, if it had any shot at reliability. Yeah. It does not. Also, if the engine were a little less peaky. Yeah. One more torque, a little less. Through sacrilege, but I really. 383 pound-feet. I really wish that the M3 with the V8 and the M5 with the V10 that the powertrains were just designed a little different. But that's also how M engines always have been, like with the exception of like. Then why do a V10? Give us a turbo. That's a question. You know why? Because Formula One, and they could. Give us a turbo. That's a real formula. A four cylinder, like AMG. Luckily, they haven't done that. That's what we want. OK, I want to talk about two more cars. Yeah, we do. I want to talk about the Grand Cherokee. Please pull up the Grand Cherokee. Oh, absolutely. The best car we have on the site right now, and that's saying a lot, because there's some good stuff on the site. We got right now. This is, folks, this is just a Grand Cherokee. Look at it. It's a 13 Grand Cherokee Laredo X. OK. I know there was a trim. It was. Boring Grand Cherokee. But then. By the way, that's a good gen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best gen. But then. You open the hood. You open the hood. And under the hood, there is a 6.4 liter Hemi Swap with a blower. Not just a Hemi Swap, but a blower. What's the, they dinoted it. It's got some crazy wheel numbers. 600 and 500. 500 and 26 wheel. Folks, this is a 600 horsepower car. Now, you're thinking yourself, well, jeep made the track hawk and the, no, no. This is cool because it doesn't look. Yep. They did the wheels because I presume they did brakes. So those wheels are from an SRT Grand Cherokee. But otherwise, this is just, it just looks like a regular old Grand Cherokee. So cool. This is a dude in New Jersey. And he kept it totally. He resisted all the temptation you have when you do a motor swap to also black out the tails and lower it and put on a heinous body kit. This is the coolest car on the site right now. I am obsessed with this thing. Can I give you a jeep fun fact? Yeah. Do you know the fastest zero to 60 jeep of all time is this that came from the factory? Maybe this, maybe not. Track Hawk. No, the wagon here. S. Of course. The wagon here. S is fashioned with track. Hock. Look at that. Look at that. Go back to the tail of the headlight. Look at that cloudy headlight. This is amazing. I know. This is just looks like a jeep that you would see driving around as an Uber. Yep. The two or four thousand mile odometer reading. The engine blew up when you put in a different one. That's what happened. But that's what's cool. That's so cool. I agree. And it's so cool that he kept it stuck. Like this is, I'm dead serious. Like you drive around in Jersey, you just see this thing and you're like, oh, someone put SRT wheels on a regular. Yeah. Then you line up. I remember what was that other V8 swap truck that we had. The guy looked stock and now it's about how to behave. There have been a few good swaps. But that's the thing. If you do this and it looks stock, it's so good. I love a swap like this. It's so good. It looks so good. It takes so much more restraint not to do the dumb other stuff. And yet it ends up so much better. It's so cool. Totally. 526 wheel. That's real. This is a 640 horsepower car. That would blow up the next two. Oh yeah. This thing is so sweet. Next two. If you're legit, this is what you call it. If I were legit and I live in New Jersey, I would. What do you mean you got to live in New Jersey? Yeah. I'm a graduate there. It does surprise me. You could live in Pennsylvania, but like if you. It does surprise me. This was done in New Jersey. Pennsylvania's a mission. It does surprise me. This was done in New Jersey because it's like, they're like tight with that stuff. Like it was the other one you're thinking about was that XTERRA. That XTERRA that had the Titan V8 swap. Oh, that was cool. That was amazing. Right. It was an amazing vehicle. That one. The green one. Oh yeah. Yeah. Look at that. And again, lifted it, like made it cool off roadie, but didn't mess with it otherwise. Didn't do dumb stuff. Looked pretty stocked with that under the hood. Under the hood, it had a Titan V8, which just looks like a regular motor. Like that's so killer. Anyway, love the Grand Cherokee. Want the Grand Cherokee. Yep. Someone out there buy it and enjoy it. Yep. Is it no reserve? It is. It is. Go bid. You could bid. OK. We want to talk to M Roadster, then we got to move on to questions, questions, questions. Yes. So I think about this a lot more when you're a Porsche guy. Porsche people love. I've had more Nissan's than Porsches. Do you know that? Is that so? Yeah. I had a Skyline, a Cube, and a. The Cube. The Cube was a technicality. Your brother just give it to you for like a long weekend. Yeah, but I owned it for two years. That car. Here's the story about my Cube. That car, I personalized my Georgia license plate to say 001AAA. And so it looked like the first license plate. And a man came out to me and said, you got the first one. And I said, yep, got lucky. And I just walked away. Well, that was you throwing it down for one nerd doing nothing. All right, let's talk about it. By the way, if you're a newer fan of Doug, go search Nissan Cube, Doug. Is there a video? There's a gray review. We did a video right before I sold it, right? You did a video long time ago. Does it have the 001A? No, I don't think it does. OK, M Roadster. Anyway, so Porsche people love color. The unique colors bring a dramatic difference. We saw this with that Cayenne that happened recently. BMW people and other marks, less so. So this BMW M Roadster, this BMW, if you let me speak, uninterrupted for once, this BMW M Roadster, this is Evergreen over Evergreen, which if this were on a 964, would it be 800,000? That's a 964 that Singer wouldn't take a hack apart. Right. Meanwhile, this car sold for $17,266, which is nothing great. Now, it had miles, 114,000 miles, but it's a really seemingly special color. But I've seen a number of them that are this color, and they don't really sell for a premium. And this is, I want to be clear, this is a very ugly color. And the interior is even very. Oh, the interior. I mean, it's awful. The interior is horrible. However, if I were buying one of these, this is the only color I would consider. It's so cool. Cayenne's the other. So here's why I know what you're pulling up. You're pulling up that, that Nephrite green. Yes, like a fine. Oh, it's hard. It's way back there. Yeah, I don't. We sold it for a lot of money, though. So you'll find it that way. Yeah, I'll find it. OK, there it is. There it is. So here's. Very similar color, to be clear. Here's why I think your take is wrong. We sold last week a different Z3M with a touch lower miles, like 100-1000 miles. That was a regular color a week prior. And that's all for $12,500. So this car sold for 50% more. Yeah. And that boxer with this one. It's still not bringing money. But 50% more is the same margin as any other. That boxer sold for 30%, 40% more than another 50% boxer. Yeah, but I put Cayenne's points. Reminds me? Like a non-special, a 997 in a special color. 50% more is probably about the right margin. Yeah, but Cayenne's point, like it's still 17 grand. It's still 17 grand. It's not like. It's not like. What do you think it's worth? I don't know. I think it's cool. Of course it's cool. That's why it's 50% more than a regular color. I guess. I mean, you're right. And if you're looking at it on a percentage basis. Well, that's how you should be looking at it. Well, maybe. You're just paying $4,000. You're buying a Z3 app. I guess. You're not buying that car. It is interesting to me that people don't sit here and say, that car is like a, I mean, you're never going to find another one. No. There was that really awful green, too, that they did. That was even worse. There was a worse green. I agree. It was like urban green or something. I know a Z4. I actually like that color. I know exactly the color. It's worse. It's like a Robin's egg, but it's green. It's odd. I agree. I just think it is interesting. To me, it just doesn't feel. I mean, the car doesn't feel valued in general, which I think is kind of a shame because they are actually very fun. Yes, but why would you? People are always asking me, how highly do you want to value a Z3 app? People are always at higher. Higher. People are always asking me for tips on what cars are going to appreciate. I don't know if it's gonna, but it should. This car is radically undervalued. I agree. I just think the Z4M is as well. I'm calling it. The Z4M, I agree. The coupe. Is the coupe closed yet? The Astoral coupe? Yes, this one. 28. OK. That got some money. It got some money. But 28 is a bargain for this one. But when you consider an S54 with the same mileage costs. You don't think this is a bargain? This is a fun car. It's a fun car, but $30,000 is a real amount of money. This is a very special car. It really is. The clown shoe, it was a very unusual look. I agree. It's incredibly cool. But is the experience worth more than that? Not really. Is the Z3. Is a 250 GT-O X? No, but $40 million? I consider it. Yes, if you're the pinnacle of buying Arch, which is fundamental when you're buying, then fine. That's right. This is Arch. The reason I'll tell you this. I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying, but I will give you this counterpoint. The S54 car is sell for three. If this wasn't a storial S54 car, we'd be talking about $100,000. The mass of the price. But whether or not it's over or under priced, had 130,000 miles, that's not bad. Whether or not it's over or under priced, the market radically values the S54 and radically does not value the S52. And it seems wrong. It seems like they should be tighter. There is a 70 horsepower difference. But other than that, you're still getting. It's a significant amount. 25% difference. But I think the coolest part of the car is you have this bizarre, low production, low model year, weird thing they'll never do again. They probably should have done in the first place. A hatchback coupe makes no sense. I love it, which is why it's worth twice as much as a Z3M Roadster. Yeah. I think that doesn't feel unreasonable. I think both the Roadsters and the Coupes are under value. OK, I'm going to be careful because we have somebody in the office here who owns a Z3M Roadster. Low production model. I'm going to be careful. Why is it that special? It's fun. It's a great car. It's already more expensive than an NB Miata and an NC Miata. Oh my god. Oh my god. It's more expensive than a 986 boxer for the same price point. It's so much more powerful because the engine's way more interesting. It's more expensive than a 986S boxer. It's got more power than those. It's substantially. But it's substantially. 240 horsepower. It's not that much more. It's in line with the 997. It's cooler than a Boxster. That is way cooler than a Boxster. Coupes obviously is. But we're talking about the Roadsters. We're talking about both. We're talking about appropriately. We're talking about both. In my mind, they're priced about a percent. Well, wait. If you're talking about the Roadster, it's not more expensive than a 96 Boxster. A 96 Boxster S is more expensive than an NB Miata. With the same miles. A 100,000 mile 96 Boxster is a $10,000 car. It just astonishes me. It truly astonishes me that they're rare. Unlike Boxsters, which are diamond-dust, these are rare cars. And the coupes are legit rare. If I saw an Astoral M coupe, I would freak out. I would follow it. I would take a picture. I would send it to everybody. I cannot think of another $28,000 car for which I'm going to. I did recently. I slowed down. I was there's one on a transport. And I slowed down to take pictures of it because you never see them. It was S52. I think. Fine. And by the way, the S52 is the more reliable power car. One would argue that it's actually better to take an S52, do a couple of mods to it, get yourself up to 280 to 90 horse, and call it a day. I actually don't disagree with you on that. I like the S52. I had one car with an S52. Why did you buy this? Me? I had an S52 and an M3. I mean, I've been thinking about it. This is another car you guys talked me out of because I brought up the idea of buying this and everybody said you can't have another BMW. Well, I think you should avoid another BMW. But I'm ready for you to get a car. For M, by the way, I agree. Undervalued. Yeah, the Z4 is the great understaff. This body style is more special. Yeah, but it does come with its own problem. It's you, though. It's ugly. You're saying that. I think the Z3 Roadster, not a pretty car. Oh my God. All right. Let's move on. Well, Fleeeper just doesn't have any taste. Go to the side shot. Go back to the coupe. The coupe is special. Go back to it. Click on that. Click on that side profile. That car is so true. For a while, we had a Z3 3.0 done, obviously. You reviewed it. And I wanted that car because I think it is because it's a cheap hatchback. And I think it's a special cheap hatchback. God. I've walked into that one. You do just come back to it. This car is rare. It's special. The color is special. I cannot believe you can buy that car for $20,000. I truly can't. You get that and a third gen Viper. By the way, Ken and I, I want to say something. I want to say one more thing before we go into questions. I have a new theory. It's like my Cayman GT4 or a Nucleus theory. It's about vipers. Ken and I determined today there are only three generations of Viper. There's the first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen. Yeah. Agreed. But that's what you call them. So there are three gen. Because no one would ever call the fifth gen Viper the third gen Viper. It's just mentally, it just seems wrong. The fifth gen Viper is the fifth gen Viper. But from now on, I will only refer to three generations of Viper, the first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen. Those are the three generations of Viper. Ken and want a first gen but would accept a 1.2 gen. Yeah, you can say that too if you want. Oh, yes. Yes, they, you know, it's funny because I've been really looking at Viper prices recently and they seem to be rising relatively steadily. Like good first gen's are kind of in the 50s now. Wow, that's a shame. Which is so, because like not that long ago, they were in the 30s. I begged them to get one of 35, didn't do it, could have made 15 grand. Okay, we got to move on to questions. We have to move on to questions. Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper. Which one? The one. All of it, the third gen is the third gen. Right. That's only the second gen. Well, I am the fourth gen. Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper. It looks like an S2000, but it goes like a Viper. Okay. It looks like an S2000. Sort of. Doesn't matter. My big thing about the third gen Viper that really hit me when I was reviewing it is that it's, the looks are too tame for the driving experience. The driving experience is like punched you in the face. The looks are kind of, it's kind of pretty. I don't think it's tame. Look at it. Compared to the other one, compared to the first gen. The rear tires are literally twice the width of the car. The rear is cool. It's wide and all that, but it's the first gen. Yeah, you picked, yeah, okay, you're right. All right. Look at it. No, no, you're right. I take everything back. I take everything back. You know what, it's the painted windshield. That's part of it. They're not that far off. No. Very long hood, proportionally. But the difference is the Viper, when you, the difference is the S2000's pretty tame car. Like it's very controllable. The Viper when you get in, you feel like you're going to die, but it doesn't have the look of a car that looks like it's going to kill you. Right. That's the problem with the third gen. Right. Which is actually, I think actually kind of adds to the experience, but moving on. Okay, questions. Questions are brought to you by Filippo in his giraffe shirt at Road Atlanta. The IMSA, Venet, Petit Le Mans. Filippo's going to be there in his giraffe shirt. Maybe in his giraffe shirt. October 11th, right? Someone on that. First question, by the way, great questions this week. Last week I put out a call for questions. I said, we don't have enough good questions. Go to cars and bids, click on the community tab. There'll be a questions post. There's so many questions. There were so many questions. There were so many questions. I went through all of them and I found the best questions. Okay, so here they are. From more of 58, hi Doug. Did your wife ever have concerns about you buying the Carrera GT as it has a reputation of being a widowmaker or does she have any concerns with the car you bought or you're planning to buy? Despite being a relatively tame individual, I like cars that are trying to kill me. My 4GT, you know, it no longer does it have this reputation, but when the 4GT came out, it was known as a really, really uncontrollable car. And there was some really high profile accidents with them. And the Carrera GT, of course, also some well-known one. Yeah, couple. And anyway, but my wife didn't know any of that. So, all right. The idea that your wife, who was a lovely human, wouldn't know that it had a reputation of anything is. No, I told her very clearly. And there was a particularly sad crash in Southern California with the Carrera GT where a guy died, who had a little kid, and I bought my car just after I had a little kid. And I think about that a lot when I'm driving the car. And I am very careful when I drive for that reason. And I think that tire technology and suspension technology has kind of changed the driving experience of that car. I actually find the car to be tremendously controllable. One of the most poised and controllable cars I have ever driven, I have never had the experience that some people say they have had of dangerous operation conditions. I do think that has contributed to the increase in interest and value of the car, but I have never had that experience myself. I have always found the car to be tremendously easy to drive and to understand and predictable. And I do push it hard. We went to the racetrack and all that. But I always try to be more careful than I probably could be, given the car's limits are pretty significant. And I do think about that sometimes. You're both an experienced driver and a careful driver. Yeah, I've also driven everything and I've driven a lot of stuff on the racetrack. But I think people who think that often can get themselves into trouble. And so I try not to think that. And I try to just kind of keep the car within its limits. But the limits are significant. Okay, here's a good question for you guys about me. I am Batman writes, Hey, on the very first podcast ever, Filippo named the MK7 GTI, the deepest Filippo car. What car would be the deepest? Kenan's is obviously the 395. What car would be the deepest Doug car? That's a cargo. No, an E63 AMG wagon is. What? I'm not practical. How many E-Class wagons have you owned? Three. Right. All of them. There's more than any other human in North America has owned. That car is both practical and practical. And like you love the G-Wagon. You are, it would not be a car you own now, but you have owned them. And like it's like the right combination of practical and the G-Wagon is kind of there. Actually because very unusual and appreciate for being unusual, kind of practical, but also not because like, you can't really get to the receipts. It's not fast though. I like performance and I'm relatively athletic as a person. You're not fast. You don't think so. Let's race. I'll race. Let's go. We'll pull him right there. You think you'll beat me in a race? I said I would film right there. Oh, okay. I think you're also. You get to the tennis net pretty quickly, but outside that. Okay. I think GCab is better. But I think that the answer is C3 Stingray. Oh, on what? Forever's. Famously fast vehicle. Cool as hell. Big old motor. Yeah. And you know what? It'll get the job done if you know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying? Wink makes it so much worse. Yeah. C3 Stingray. We ever sold one of those? Yeah, a couple. Because it made it into 81 was the final model year. And now it's all in some sense. Oh, yeah. That's me. Wait, no, go to that. No, that's not me as much. Yeah, no, maybe more. I've you myself more like that one. Yes, that one was so cool. Yeah, yeah, that one. Click on that one. Yeah, I can't believe that's a $7000 car. I know. Dude, you want to talk about undervalued stuff. The C3 is undervalued. Well, that one's a little rough. Yeah. The C3 is undervalued though. And you want to know one of the reasons I think the C3 is undervalued. You ask a European to like name an American car. The first thing they think of as a C3, like the look of it, like the radical huge motor with no power, the sound, the pollution. Like this car is so American. It shouldn't be more highly valued, but it is. It also has wild names like Paws Attraction, which is what everything was named at the time, but like it's weird now. Yeah. Maybe the collector edition with its like fading thing. This is me, dude. Look at the interior. Ever seen a chair on a collector edition? Well, that looks about it. It's got silver. It's got like gold seats. Gold silver thing. Wow. That's me. Okay. I really want to drive a four plus three from AFS CTSV. A Doug Mache. Yeah. Doug, I understand the hate for the four cylinder C63 given the radical departure from the established formula. But the vast majority of complaints I see are because of the departure of this. This is a little nuanced question. It's interesting. Do you think that the V8 C class AMG, if it had never existed, would the perception of the four sales C63 be different? Yeah. But I think that has to be part of it. I think you can't separate it. We know what a C63 is. I have a different answer. I remember when you had that car, that press car and you were doing a review and you came out of it like, I was really hoping that I could say like something nice different than everybody else, but you didn't enjoy the car plainly. But only because it drove like a Subaru. And I think that's part of his point. Like what if we always knew the C63 drove like a Subaru? But the prior C class AMG, even though they weren't the big burly V8s, we're still well-engined. Yeah. Not afraid. But that's the point though. He's saying, can you separate that? I mean, I think part of the hate has to be because we know, like it's too hard to imagine the C63 as anything else. It's a nuanced question. It's not a bad question. I don't think the car is terrible on its face, but I think when you create, when you create as an automaker this, this lore of a car, it just is part of what the car is and becomes. And you can't like separate it from that. Like, is the car great if you couldn't think about the other ones? Yeah. I mean, it drives okay. Like I like an STI, you know, but like if you're comparing the, the, like a, an entrant in that segment to a Subaru engine, that's not a positive price. Maybe, but what, but you know, I just think it's, it is what it is. Like history is what it is. History is a V8. The history is part of it. Yeah. I can't, you can't separate it. It's a good question. It's a good question. But, but I really think that that ends up, it just has to be part of the car. And so it's too hard to separate it. You know, ultimately Mercedes-Benz agrees. Yeah. Another very nuanced and interesting question from Daniel Fritsch. Doug, I remember you saying Toyota launched the FJ at the worst possible. FJ Cruiser at the worst possible time. The recession came on. We weren't that interested in off-roaders at the time. With the success of Toyota SUVs and their off-roading pedigree, a relaunch of the FJ as a Bronco slash Jeep competitor could fit in the marketplace. I think Toyota has decided for whatever reason that that niche will be filled by the forerunner. And if you look at it from a pricing perspective and from a total sales perspective, the forerunner is a close competitor at the Bronco and the Wrangler. The difference of course is it doesn't look like them, right? It doesn't have like an exposed fenders, removable doors, removable roof, but for whatever reason, that's the direction Toyota has gone instead. I think the market's cool with that. They have teased an FJ, by the way. If you do, yeah, but isn't it like electric or a smaller, right? If you do another FJ, I think you do risk stealing some of the market that is the forerunner because I really think that that's what they've done. And I think Toyota has probably smartly understood that the forerunner actually is a better vehicle for most people. It drives nicer than a Wrangler or a Bronco. Most people don't ever take off the roof or the doors. And if you remove those items, the forerunner is a pretty cool car. The Honda Passport guys really got to you. That's what consumers really want. Consumers want a body on frame capable vehicle. Okay. The Passport's a crossover. I do think that there is room for a smaller, like, burlier looking Toyota and I think Toyota will be. Maybe. I would love to see the FJ come back, but I think it would really come at the expense of a forerunner. I think you would see a lot of people who would have bought a forerunner just simply migrate over to that car. And I don't think that there's a lot of people who are thinking about a Toyota but choose a Jeep because the Wrangler can what? Take the roof off? Maybe there are some, but I bet it's not a huge amount of people. We've given Toyota a pass for the Land Cruiser forerunner thing, huh? God, one of the great bad product planning decisions in history. We're talking about, of course, that if I had the Land Cruiser forerunner right now. Then they stole the 300 series Land Cruiser from me. We'll go down. They're worse than the guy who rolled back the 993 Odomater. March 1. Here's another good question from two train. Doug, do you, it actually doesn't say Doug, you guys can answer too. Do you lose all respect for an alleged car enthusiast when he purchases a vehicle and automatic when the same car is produced from the factory with a manual? Like buying a GT4 PDK versus stick? Personally, no. I think there's a lot of good reasons to buy a TAB. Yeah, I think so. I think it also does kind of depend on the, depends on the car specifically, but like, caught a automatic E60 over versus a manual. That's like, maybe. Maybe. But also there are reasons, there are value reasons, there are, you know, it depends on how the car is being used. Right. You know, if you're going to, like if you put GT4 is a good example, if you wanted to just do track driving with. Yeah. PDK is better. If you're going to drive it around town and go on like long drives, like we do a country that maybe won't. But if you're going to commute, like, this is why I've always said an auto Supra would be cool. Like I think it'd be an amazing commuter. Yeah. And that's true of an auto NSX. Like would you rather commute in a Model 3 like everybody else or sit in an auto Supra? I'd rather sit in an auto Supra. A manual would be cooler, but not for bumper to bumper. So I think that as long as there's a reason for it, it's fine. There's a lot of other things to judge people about. Yeah. Don't eat that one. Yeah, I'd rather judge people about rolling back and folks, please, please. He's holding up the 993. I am a Porsche enthusiast. Porsche guy, someone said. Okay. Here's a good one from Clayson8. We'll do two more. Clayson8, continuing last week's question of what car screams I know nothing about cars. What cars say the most if you know you know? Thinking of the Volvo S60R, Vig and Saabs, Jaguar RS for the mid 2000s. You know, it's an interesting question. I'm bringing up the S60R when I worked at Porsche as a Porsche enthusiast. Although I certainly wasn't then. And we do job interviews. I would sometimes in the job interview ask people, what do you think of the Volvo S60R? That was like a litmus test if they're a car enthusiast. It was just enough. Like, what do you think of the Mustang is like too obvious, right? I like that question. Yeah. So anyway, what are the most if you know you know car? Lotus Carlton. A V70R. I'm not going to give the S60R a pass because those are $3,000 cars now for a bad one on Facebook. But really? Yeah, they got a real cheap. A V70R. If you know, you know. Don't you think it's a Lotus Carlton? Lotus Carlton is so niche though. That's what I'm saying though. But like, I think about this is like you see a car and like, oh, that person's an enthusiast. Lotus Carlton. Yeah, sure. When did that happen? 40 RA. Yesterday we were having dinner and I drive home, I saw a guy in a Saab 900 turbo and I knew he was an enthusiast. I waved. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title industry company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue. And did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend 200 pounds on your first campaign and get a 200 pound credit for the next one. Go to LinkedIn.com slash lead to claim your offer. Terms and conditions apply. I think you have to be more specific. I think if it's like, like if I see a new car, someone driving a new car, like what identifies me. You could say basically any old car, the guy who drives an AMC Pacer who lives near that guy's an enthusiast. Here's the question. Here's a question for you that's on the same vein. What car when you see it on the street, are you certain an enthusiast will be driving? Obviously Ferrari or the Courage GT. No, I wouldn't. Courage GT maybe. Let me step the question back a little. A car that you're certain enthusiasts who have that you see regularly. What is the most likely? I'm not even going to give you Courage GT. Well, if you see a drive range or an enthusiast, but if you see somebody that owns one, Car you see once a week at least. What is the car that is the most likely to be an enthusiast that you see once a week? You see at least once a week. You could. Who? I haven't seen a lease in two years. I think you see a lot of lease, you know. Okay. I'm talking about a car with regular. I'll tell you why this question comes up. I drive my sports cars and I am astonished when I pull up next to a GTI and the person doesn't look at the Countach. Or when I pull up next to a 997, the person doesn't look at the Courage GT. And it suggests to me that there's a lot of non-enthusiast driving enthusiast cars. So I'm curious what is the most likely enthusiast car? Yes, an Elise. One of the Miata's. The issue there's so many. Not the NC. There's so many automatic NDS. Yeah, you don't think there's a lot of Tip Miata's out there that are just bought by like an older person who wants a convertible. If they have the BBS, if I see the BBS wheels, I know. How often do you see that though? I see them on Kevin's all the time. You get my point. But you get my point. What is the car? A 996. A non-current 911 of any kind. Yeah, a non-current 911. 991 though, even though. No, no, pre-991 911. I don't know. I see them around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't know. I do see enthusiast, but I still see enthusiast cars that are driven by non-enthusiast. Like there's an E46 and a 3 in this neighborhood. Missing a grill. That's actually a good one. M cars. Yeah, a lot of M cars. There are a lot of M cars. STI. I will say STIs and Zs I see almost every day. They are enthusiasts, but I have found in talking to those people that a lot of times they're just enthusiasts of that community and don't really know all like the courage you to goes by. It's like a Porsche to them, right? Once it's M, once the M340 I started existing M cars. You're right. Like people that are only vaguely into cars will buy them 340 or the C43 AMG or whatever and leave the top pinnacle for real enthusiasts. Yeah, that's probably true. Something along those lines. Yeah. Okay. Last question. This is a good one from bread bowls. Hello, Doug and friends. I'm of the opinion that normal cars become enthusiasts cars after a certain period of time. What do you think is the period of time that takes for a normal car to reach enthusiasts status? Can you go to Camry? Can you pull up Camry on cars and beds? What 20 years? No, just type in Camry. Yeah, yeah. When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody. It was the best generation of Camry. This is my point. Car enthusiasts thought this was kind of representative of sort of the decline of the automobile. If you went on internet forums in 2002, all people would talk about as boring people just by these Camry's and their cars and they just by these boring, milk-toed, stupid cars that are just so dull and they can't, nobody wants to have fun on the road anymore. 20 years later, I've noticed there has become this beloved interest in cars like this. And I'm so astonished by it because I was there. I remember people, not only did people hate this car enthusiasts, but they truly viewed this car as a visible representation of the decline of automotive enthusiasm. And now if you go to Radwood, people are like, oh man, I got a clean RAV4. That car was like a boring front-wheel drive BS car that we were all rallying against. Now the cars have become electric and even people are like, oh, these were gas cars. This was so cool. That's not my reaction. I think it's so funny. I think that we as a community, by the way, my interest is academic at the time. I also thought this was my interest is academic in nature. But I think that people have appreciation for cars that are kept well that shouldn't have been. That's true. It's not that people think there's a good platform or that it's like a fun car. But if you, I agree, but people say this is like the best Camry. And when I was there, it was not being said. The generation before that was like the strong contenders. It's the hard. Both of them were truly considered. It's like how liberals now feel about W Bush. They're like, oh, he wasn't so bad. That wasn't the conversation. I'll tell you. That's so true. But the Camry is a good exam. Go back to it. Like all of these Camrys are now we're running them on this enthusiast website and they get love and people like, oh, I have fond memories. At the time they weren't fond memories. You hated your dad if he came home on one of these. You were like, why did you get this instead of something cool? Like, Maxima, we had that car, except it was had a hubcaps and a four cylinder. We weren't rich like this guy and a gold package. Oh, man. Different level. Well, doing well. I think the answer is 20 to 25 years. Yeah. The answer is 30 years. That's so that's not cool enough for you. Well, this is 25. Yeah. It's it's it's I'll tell you this. The O2 Camry is not cool yet. We did sell one, but the O2. Where is it? Go down a little bit. It's on the next row. I think with the ugly headlights. This car is not cool yet. I agree. You're right. Not cool yet. I've seen it without a dent. I'm sure over time. It's it's so. But the previous one that ended in 01 has become cool. So there's a 25 year mark there. What about a courts? Do we think that ending in 02 the ending in 02 one is cool, but the 03 is not. hybrid 06 hybrid 05 06 hybrid. We agree the 03 accord was the best accord ever made, though. One of the best cars ever. Okay. There are three generations in a row that are I think are competitors. The one before that 98 to 02 and the one before that 94 97 is I think the best actual product. No, they all got stolen. That's me. That wasn't a good start. It was a spoon. No, because they were good. Any car that you could start with a spoon is not the best car ever made 98 to 02. You have to at least need to use some sort of spoon knife hybrid tool. Spork. Yeah. Okay. That's the end of the pot. We're way over time. This pot is way too long. Don't watch it. You're watching this far. Go Raid us on Apple podcast or on Spotify. It helps. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but I think you should do it or not do it. Go see. It's in like two weeks. I don't know what we're going to do about the pod when they're gone. It's just me rambling about the 993 turbo. I'm staying here to be with you. Felipe is going there to do something with an Aston Martin. I don't know. I am. I'm filming a little video with an Aston Martin garage. You know, it kind of looks like a 959. There's like a little 959 here. That's what we tell ourselves in the community. You know what the difference? 993 looks good. That's the end of it. All right. You can buy everybody. Best podcast we've ever done.