Mormon Church Hides Abuse of Wade Christofferson, Enabling More Abuse - Edward Nachel | Ep. 2117

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dillon. It's February 24th, 2026. And today is kind of a unique Mormon Stories episode because I think my interviewee sort of pressed me more for an interview than I pressed him. Although, having said that, this is a very important interview and it's very important to me. It's just a topic I've been very conflicted about. Today we're going to be talking about Wade Christofferson. He is the brother of D. Todd Christofferson, current member of the Mormon Church's first presidency and apostle of the LDS Church. Wade Christofferson is also the brother of a dear friend of mine, Tom Christofferson. The Christofferson brothers, in some sense, at least three of them, I think it's three out of five, are very well known currently in Mormonism. But I'll read about Wade because that's the focus for today's episode. For those who don't know, Wade Christopherson, age 72, of Dublin, Ohio, which is where Lee and Cody Young were excommunicated. It's also where Fannie Alger fled to after she fled Kirtland, Ohio, after her affair with Joseph Smith. That's just a side note. Anyway, Wade Christopherson, age 72, according to the internet, is the brother of D. Todd Christopherson, who in 2025 served as second counselor in the first presidency of the church of jesus christ of lettering saints wade was arrested on november 20th 2025 in utah the utah law enforcement booked him into the salt lake county jail based on a federal criminal complaint filed in the u.s district court for the district of utah why was he arrested he was charged with federal child exploitation and sexual abuse offenses involving minors. According to charging documents and press releases, he's accused of attempting to sexually exploit a minor and of coercion and enticement. Authorities say he allegedly sexually abused a child in Dublin, Ohio, touching the child 15 to 20 times when the child was between about seven and eight years old. He also allegedly engaged in sexually explicit FaceTime communications with the minor in Utah and sent sexually coded letters to the child's home that referenced sexual activity. Prosecutors claim he taught the child coded terms for body parts and sexual acts. During the investigation, law enforcement found on his phone searches such as criminal defense attorneys, sex crimes, Columbus, Ohio, and in Ohio, do clergy have to report child sexual confessions, child abuse, sorry, child abuse confessions? Because the charges are the are at the federal level, the case involves interstate exploitation and cooperation between the FBI, local Ohio police, and Utah authorities. Next steps legally after being arrested in Utah, he was expected to be extradited to the Southern District of Ohio, where the charges originated. And again, there's a note from Google, the internet, these are allegations from charging documents in US law. Everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in court. Now, a couple other personal notes to this. Again, I consider Tom Christopherson a dear friend. He's been on Mormon Stories podcast. He's super well known because he left the LDS church by his own accord when he was a young adult because he was gay, but still a believer in the church. He asked to be excommunicated because he believed in the church and didn't feel like he was living worthily. Tom ended up building a big, bright, beautiful life outside of Mormonism, including finding a lifelong partner and building a successful career, I believe in banking, but at some point felt called to come back to the LDS church, ended up separating from his partner, rebaptizing, and he published a book on showing more love and empathy for LGBT Mormons in the Mormon church. And that's why we had him on the podcast several years ago. He's a lovely, thoughtful, faithful man, and a dear friend. So that has, I'm not going to lie, that has influenced my thoughts on how much I wanted to cover this topic, not because I wouldn't cover, you know, the family members of a dear friend, but also because, you know, talking to Tom has helped me have caution in not, let's just say, unnecessarily attempting to connect the LDS church or his brother, Todd, the apostle with stuff that may or may not really involve Todd or, or complicity in the church. And basically just Tom has, has helped me not jump to conclusions and unfair conclusions about what is or isn't connected to his brother Todd and or the church. So instead of jumping in, we came really close to covering this issue several times, but we just didn't feel like we had enough information to assert that the LDS church was complicit in covering this up. Or there was even some question about to what extent was Wade excommunicated for child abuse versus excommunicated for adultery. And because we didn't have enough information, we just decided to wait for more information before this issue was covered. Well, that's where Edward comes in because Edward reached out to me at some point and basically said, what, Edward, what did you say to me? Well, basically that I had information on what had transpired back in 96 when I was a member of the stake high council. So you were a member of a stake high council where? Buffalo Grove, Illinois. Which is kind of the Chicago suburb area, right? And you were actually on the stake high council during the disciplinary council and excommunication originally of Wade Christopherson. Is that right? Well, in 96, yeah. Yeah. So you could tell us, you would be able to provide us firsthand information on what the circumstances were surrounding his excommunication, right? Right. And then also you have at least followed up on this story enough afterwards through today to not only feel some strong feelings about wanting to tell a story, but also to maybe help shed some insight into where things have been and where they stand today with Wade. Is that right? Right. Right. And I guess there'll be at least some input. So there's many questions like, what did the apostle brother D. Todd Christopherson know and when did he know it? Is it possible that Todd Christopherson and or the church would have been responsible for protecting Wade or expunging his record? Because we know that at some point, Wade was rebaptized and he ended up on a bishopric because as I understand it, he was in the bishopric in Lee and Cody Young's ward during the time Lee and Cody Young were excommunicated. But, you know, more importantly, the extent to which Wade, you know, there were favors done to expunge his record, clean up his record, let him return in full fellowship. If there was knowledge that he was a sexual predator of children, that could have made other ward members, stake members, vulnerable to his predation when they could have been warned and protected otherwise. And so those are the very delicate issues. We don't want to jump to conclusions. We don't want to blame the church or Todd with stuff that isn't theirs. However, if there's information that leads us to think that the church and or Todd or others were complicit in making either other ward or church members vulnerable, that's important because we do know that there's a broader epidemic in the Mormon church of protecting predators at the expense of victims that leaves other victims vulnerable, but also that prevents predators from ever going to the police or facing accountability to protect the church's name or their money. And this recent episode with Bo Euler, Bishop Bo Euler is a perfect example where Bishop Bo Euler testifies, you know, on soft white underbelly that as a Mormon bishop, he was advised by Mormon church law firm, Curt McConkie, to not turn a confessed predator into law enforcement. And we've had several other people tell us the same thing. And then what does the LDS church do in response to Bo sharing that experience? They smear him, get dozens of other social media influences to smear bow, call him a liar, and try to perpetuate the idea that the church does not protect predators at the expense of victims and does not cover things up. So that's the broader context, along with the Associated Press's articles by Michael Resendez and others, suggesting, along with the Boy Scouts epidemic of child abuse in Mormon Boy Scout troops, All of that is this broader context that's begging the question, to what extent is there sort of a Mormon version of the Catholic Church's spotlight where there's been a systemic cover-up of child sexual abuse in the Mormon Church for half century or more? So I just said a lot of words. Before we jump into your story, Edward, do you have any quick, you know, corrections or clarifications? Do you want to share your motives for why you reach out to me before we actually dive into your story? Well, when I decided to reach out to you, it was because I had seen the recent events that took place back in Ohio in November. And it just kind of jogged my memory on what had transpired back in 96. And what prompted me to talk to you was that I actually posted out on my Facebook page an apology as being a member of the High Council and not doing anything to make sure that not only was Wade helped in his problem, but also that anyone else was warned that these things can occur. So I apologize to both the victims and to their parents for not being more vocal, but I was new to the council, and at that time, you know, it was just something he didn't talk about. You were just sworn to secrecy. And I just couldn't hold my breath anymore. Okay. And thank you for your courage. Thank you for your willingness. I should add one more thing. A few years ago, some people reached out to me who claimed that they were additional victims of Wade Christopherson. And I'm always torn when somebody tells me they're a victim. because on the one hand, I want to always support and believe victims. I also could do a daily Mormon Stories episode with alleged victims of sexual abuse because we get a thousand applicants to Mormon Stories every year, and pretty much every applicant claims to be a victim of sexual abuse. So I can't have Mormon stories only be stories of victims of sexual abuse. So that's a complicating factor. I also don't want to get sued for defamation. I also want to be careful to never falsely accuse someone. So whenever someone comes to me as a victim, there are all sorts of things that Mark and I have to think about as to whether or not we're going to cover the story. But these people did come to me, and I'm speaking vaguely intentionally. they said we're victims of wade christopherson brother of todd and tom christopherson and i didn't know what to do about that at the time but i wasn't going to just do an episode uh for all the reasons i just said so what i did is i shared that information where i felt like it could do the most good and the feedback i got was that wade denies these allegations and that he wasn't even in the country during the time that these victims claimed he had abused them. So that I don't, you know, I'm mixed about, did I cover up something unintentionally? But again, I'm not the police and I can't go and investigate personally every allegation that's made to me. So that's another just tidbit of information that I've been sitting with regarding Wade that has added a complicating factor. And now that this has come out about Wade and his own family members and additional victims, of course, it makes me think that these other victims that came to me probably had credible claims. Having said that, these victims who came to me about Wade told me that he was excommunicated for adultery, not for child abuse. So anyway, uh, I, you know, I've been really conflicted about if to cover the story, how to cover the story as well. Let me just ask you just really directly. Uh, did we say Ed or Edward or both? Ed is fine. Are you feeling some guilt about not coming forward sooner or about how you've behaved throughout this whole thing? Yes, because, I mean, as a member of the high council, we're, you know, this is a secret court. You know, the way the thing is formed initially is secret, and you're not supposed to talk about anything that transpired there. But I felt guilty about it because had I come forward at the time back in 96. Yeah. 30 years ago, we could have stopped 30 years of this. Yeah. And we didn't. Yeah. And I feel the same way in the sense that maybe if I had made a big stink about the rumor that I heard about Wade, I could have protected his most recent victims. Right. But again, I still stand by not jumping to a conclusion because, you know, we're limited and what we can do and the risk that we can take on. We're literally a two-person, a two-employee, two-contractor nonprofit, constantly under legal assault. So anyway, with all those disclaimers, welcome, Ed, to Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks for being willing to join us. Maybe let's start with just your Mormon background to the extent that it might be relevant to this case. Well, like I said, I've known Wade for a long time. I joined the church back in 1978, and I was called to the High Council in 96. So that's 18 years that I knew him. I have considered him a friend. Okay, wait. So you were in that same ward for 18 years? Or at least those 18 years? Yeah, I was in a ward close to his. I was in his ward for a while until they formed the Woodstock Ward. And then I was in that ward, and that's when I was called to the High Council. But you knew him for what, over 20 years? Yeah, close to 20 years. So he was living in that area for over two decades. Yes. Okay, okay. Yes. Before he moved to Dublin, Ohio. Yeah, I'm not sure when he moved there. Okay. But, you know, I've known him for close to 20 years. Okay. And I consider him a friend. Still to this day? I don't now. Okay. But I did then. Okay. So you are a convert to the church in the Chicago area. Right. and you worked your way up to a member of the stake high council did you ever serve as a bishop or a stake presidency no i was in a branch presidency for a couple years when i first joined the church i was actually ordained an elder a year after joining the church and became part of a branch presidency in woodstock illinois okay and uh but you know i worked my i've been in several callings. I was a scoutmaster. I was a junior Sunday school teacher. That was my first calling. And then I was called to the branch presidency. And I served on the elders quorum. I was an elders quorum president. And in 96, I was then called by, at that time, I don't know if you want me to mention the state president's name. Sure. It was Bill Johnston. He was a good friend of mine. He called me to the high council in 96, and I was ordained a high priest at the same time. Okay. And tell us your first memories of Wade Christopherson. Well, I thought he was a nice man. You know, his family was well known in the ward. I thought he was a nice guy. I got along well with him. You know, he actually had talked to me when I first was going to the temple for the first time and had counseled me a little bit on what goes on and what he could talk about at the time, you know, because that's held sacred as well. But, you know, he was a good friend. I thought he was a good friend. What was his personality like? He was outgoing, and he was, you know, he was a very soft-spoken person. But I always considered him friendly, you know. He was a friend to a lot of members of the ward. Before his disciplinary counsel, what would his reputation have been in the warden's stake? He was, you know, he was well-liked, I thought. You know, I mean, I never heard anybody talking bad about him or had anything to say about him, you know, until the court took place. Was he affluent? I think he was comfortable. I don't know. He lived in a nice house. Yeah. You know, and he had, you know, the thing is that I mentioned one thing that because of his brother's calling, you know, that they had kind of a, I don't know what you'd say if they were a little aloof in that regard because his brother was, you know, general authority. But they seemed to be, to kind of change and be a little bit more aloof at that time. Do you know, I'll ask Julie to look this up. Do you know when D. Todd Christofferson was first called to be a general authority? I don't remember the exact year. I think it was prior to the 96 court, but I'm not absolutely sure. Julie's saying 2008. Like I know that Todd Christofferson was a stake president in Nashville prior to being a general authority, but it sounds like he was made a GA according to Julie in 2008. So that would have been a good 10 years. Yeah, 10 years after that, yeah. So when you knew him, he wouldn't have been known as the brother of a GA, right? No, not at that time. Okay, okay. Okay, so soft-smoken but kind, you know, did decently well. Do you know what callings he had, any of the types of callings he had prior to his disciplinary council? I think he was in the bishop prior to that. I don't remember all of his callings. Any of them. Like, was he kind of a leader up and, leader up and comer or whatever? I think so. Yeah. Okay. It was like you said, he was well liked in the war. Okay. Okay. So, so you're friends with Wade, you like him, he's got a good reputation and then you're called into a stake high council, which is one of 12. And, you know, so there's a stake presidency and then 12 high councilmen. Right. Right. And one of the jobs for those who are never Mormon, one of the jobs historically in the LDS church, first of all, a stake is like 10. Think of it as 10 congregations. So the stake would be the three of the 15 men that oversee 10 congregations in an area, some compared to a diocese in the Catholic church. But a stake president with his two counselors and these 12 high councilmen would, you know, visit all the different 10 congregations, call, you know, the bishops to, you know, to be bishop or the leaders of each of these congregations, visit regularly to give speeches and to make sure that the congregations or the wards are all functioning in healthy ways. And then finally, the stake president, along with his counselors and the 12 high councilmen, would be in charge of holding these disciplinary councils where if somebody was being tried to possibly be disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the church, and usually that would either be for adultery or some type of serious crime or apostasy, it would be this— And I've been through this myself. It would be this this you know group of 15 men that would hold the equivalent to an ecclesiastical trial or court to decide on the fate of the person that committed adultery or you know defrauded someone or killed someone or was an outspoken critic that needed to be kicked out for apostasy. So that's the context for those of you who've never been Mormon, you would have been one of the 12 high councilmen in the stake. How did you feel being called as a member of the high council in your stake. It's kind of an honor. It was. Yes, yes, it was. And, you know, I felt really, I don't want to say proud, but I was very pleased that I was extended that call. You know, and it was just kind of a feather in my cap kind of thing. Yeah. But I can give you a little background on how these courts are formed. Please. Yeah. Because actually there's, It has to be called when all 12 councilmen are available, so they all have to be present. We draw lots. There's a drawing of numbers, and a certain group of the numbers are assigned to represent the accused, and the other six are assigned to maintain the good name of the church. I was fortunate, I thought, at that time to be called, to be chosen to actually represent the good name of the church. And you just want to make sure that nothing is being done that could maybe show bad light on the church and things like that. So when these items are brought up in the court and the events that occurred, it was actually, I can give you some background on what exactly he was being charged with. Yeah, yeah. Did you say this was your first disciplinary council as a member of the state high council? It was only a few months after I was called to council. Okay, so wow. And that's, you know, my dad was disfellowshipped when I was a kid. And it's a sad, hard thing, especially when it's a respected leader in the stake. And he's probably friends with a lot of the either stake presidency members or members of the high council. They'd known each other for decades at that point. It's a real tender thing because on the one hand, you don't want to let sin or the good name of the church be trampled upon. And at the same time, you often love this person and you don't want to see them, you know, lose their testimony or be shamed or humiliated. So, yeah, well, so do you remember, so you would have just shown up not even knowing there was a scandal or did you have any indication that there was a scandal with wade christopherson before you show up for that disciplinary council no no i didn't know anything about what was going to transpire you just show up on a saturday or whatever it was sunday actually you show up on a sunday and you don't know why you're there you just know there's a disciplinary council right okay yeah take it from there yeah you know basically you know i was shocked when i saw who the person was that was being brought to court. And it was, you know, it was, I don't know what word I would want to use, but it was just shocking to see that this person was being accused of something. And it was actually at his daughter's slumber party that he had actually abused a couple of the young ladies that were there. And that's what he was being accused of. Oh, wow. So already you've told us what I think is breaking news, which is that this wasn't a disciplinary council for adultery with an adult woman. No, that's what everybody was led to believe. Oh, my goodness. This is huge. But it wasn't the case. Oh, wow. And obviously, because we were sworn to secrecy at that time, I mean, whatever, you know, we thought that the church was doing what should have been done. But, you know, many years later, of course, I discovered that there was more problems involved than I thought were involved. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah, so you show up, I guess Wade would have been in the room. Oh, yes. Probably with his wife. No, I don't believe his wife was there. Okay. But were victims in? No. No victims either. Just him. So it's just him and the 15 men, six, four, six against, and then the three members of the first state presidency. Right. I don't remember if his bishop was there at the time, but, you know, I'm trying to, I mean, that was 30 years ago. It's hard for me to remember who was there, but I remember that Wade was the only one present from his family. And when you say sworn to secrecy, did you, like, raise your hand to swear to secrecy? No, we know that, you know, we're not supposed to say anything about what transpires in that court. Yeah. So we had to keep quiet. Yeah. And I thought, you know, after the, because we actually, you know, voiced our concern, you know, we made sure that our charges on the council were followed, you know, like I was representing the church, and we all were polled at the time, and just, you know, we felt that, you know, the good name of the church had not been dragged through the mud or anything at the time. Yeah. And then the six members that were representing Wade said the same thing, that he felt he was fairly treated. The actual decision did not come down from the council, though, that comes down from the stake presence. Yeah, yeah. Really quickly. So do they tell you why it's top secret? Not really. Okay. But, you know, because I thought, well, hopefully he's going to get some help. Never happened. Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. But I mean, obviously, on the one hand, the argument for secrecy would be, well, one, to protect the privacy of the people involved, but also to protect the church from some scandal, right? The downside of secrecy is that if in this case the person's a predator, then if it's kept secret, then that person is allowed to continue to be a predator later. So there's pros and cons to this sort of oath to secrecy of these disciplinary councils. The other thing I'll say is that the fact that victims and their families weren't able to be there, that seems problematic. It would be like telling victims of a crime they can't show up at the courthouse or be witnesses, you know, in the crime. They can't represent themselves, say what really happened. if somebody's, if the perpetrator or the alleged perpetrator is lying, they can't be there to correct the lies and they get no sense of justice because they may not even be able to find out what the verdict was. Um, and of course that aids in the secrecy. So there are all sorts of problems with the fact that the victims weren't there, that you were sworn to secrecy. Um, but, but I, there are also some reasons why I'm sure why they do that, that aren't all pernicious. Right. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? Well, that was part of my concern, you know, because I thought, well, nothing had ever been done other than the court itself, you know, and the fact that he was excommunicated. But nothing beyond that had ever been done. I don't know if the victims were given any counseling of any kind. I never heard that. well let's not talk about the aftermath of the outcome okay until we talk about what happened so you get there he's there in the room and you're told what he's being charged with yes and tell us again what he was charged with specifically with uh molesting a couple of the young ladies that were at his daughter's slumber party and to be clear were these children or teenagers they were in the Young Women's Organization. So under 18. So children... Yeah, between the ages of 12 and 16. So young women, friends of his own daughter or daughters. And, okay, at a slumber party at his house? I believe so, yeah. Okay. Okay. And so, wow. And so immediately, what goes through your mind when it's this Wade Christopherson guy that you knew and loved? I mean, you know, what can you say about that? It was a complete shock. Okay. Yeah. And that's where I said I was glad I was on the church side because I didn't want to have to think about what exactly had transpired or whether he was being handled properly. so um so with regards you know in a normal trial in the judicial system at least in the united states you know the the plaintiffs would lay out their case what evidence they had they would lay out their version of the story they would lay out all the evidence the jury would hear the plaintiffs the attorneys for the victims in essence lay out all the evidence tell their version of the story and then the plaintiffs would rest and the defense would lay out their evidence and their version of the story contradict or counter the plaintiffs or the victim's testimony, you know, and they would pursue in that matter manner. How was evidence or allegations or the narrative dealt with in this situation where there were no victims present and no one who was even there to advocate for the victims or tell the victim's side. There's only the perpetrator who gets to tell firsthand story there. So how did they deal with evidence and the accusations? Well, it was basically, he had made a confession to his bishop at the, and that was the only evidence that they had was what he had confessed to. And do we know if he confessed, if he was forced to confess because he was caught? or do you know if he was just confessed of his own volition because he felt guilty? I think it was from his own volition. That's what I got out of it. You had no sense that someone turned him in or told him. No, no. But it could have been. It could have been. Yeah, you just didn't know. Okay. I'm not sure what perpetrated the whole affair. Okay. So in that case, if the state president's saying he confessed, then, I mean, I can see why they wouldn't necessarily need victims or anyone else there, if the state president knows he's already confessed, he's already pled guilty basically. Right. Okay. So does the state president share any details that you want to share about what he actually did, or was it just he molested children? That's the only statement that I ever heard. There was no graphic descriptions that I ever heard. And was it your sense that it was more than one girl? I got the assumption that it was basically from his confession that there was more than one involved. And did you get the sense that it was a single-time thing or like a repeated thing? It was hard to tell. Okay. It was hard to tell. Not a lot of evidence or details. No. Which I'm not saying any of us would want those details. But I mean, in a court of law, with a mental health professional, with a police officer, the details would be very important. Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, how many times, how many victims, how horrible was it? That's all good information when you're trying to figure out what the quote sentence or verdict might be, right? Yeah, and we were never told if there was any kind of coming forward from any of the young women that were involved or if his daughter was involved. We never found that out. So how did the disciplinary council proceed step by step? Basically, once we made sure everything was covered the way it was supposed to be, then the stake presidency actually adjourned and they met together. Okay, so you were of the six defending the church. There were six others defending Wade. What types of things were said by the six defending the name of the church versus the six who were defending Wade? What types of things would have been said? And I know it was a long time ago. Right. Well, basically, you know, in my part, you know, I just made the statement that I felt that the church was covered, that there was no negativity brought out that would, you know, besmirch the name of the church. And that was my part of it. And everybody, it was kind of like, it was almost like a rehearsed kind of response. You know, basically, we all basically said the same thing on both sides. that they felt that Wade was treated fairly. And, you know, the ones that mentioned that, we all were in the same room, so we all made the same statements, similar statements. So, you know, there was no embellishment or anything else. It was just, you know, did we think that the church was covered? And we said yes. And did we think that Wade was given a fair assessment? And everybody said yes, that they felt it was. Okay, so yeah, I remember when I was a missionary, I was able to read the handbook at the time. This would have been around 1989, 90. And I remember reading something to the effect of whether or not you excommunicate someone needs to be based on some criteria. How well known is their sin? How damaging is their sin to the church's reputation? and what, you know, what level, what level of leadership did they have? And basically the, the worst the sin is and the, and the higher their calling and the more well-known their sin is all of that together, the more likely that excommunication should be the verdict. And the flip side of that is if they're not super well-known, if it's less of a severe thing, and if the churches, um, and if they had, they had less of a calling, it was less as a fear thing, and it wasn't really known, then you're less likely to even decide to excommunicate. What does it mean to be on the side of the six that are defending the name of the church? What does that even mean? What did it mean in your minds in terms of like, we're covered? What does that even mean? You're thinking about, do we excommunicate or not? But how does you representing the good name of the church factor into how you end up voting, I guess? Well, actually, we just made the statement as to whether we felt that the church's good name was not dragged through the mud, basically. And that was the only statement that we made. So you're basically saying the church's name was not dragged through the mud. Why? Because it was kept secret. Basically. Because no one knew. No one knew. So no harm, no foul. We don't need to go too hard or go too severe because this has been kept secret. Is that what you're saying? Okay. So that would mean don't excommunicate possibly. I don't know. I'm just guessing. Yeah, it was. I would think that most of the decision to do the excommunication probably came from the other side of the council. Which was what? which was the ones that represented Wade as to whether they felt it was serious. Then he basically voiced their concerns. Is there anyone speaking out for the victims? I'm just realizing what you said, no? No. Like six for the name of the church, six for Wade. Where are the six or the 12 for the victims? It was non-existent. That's telling. There's no voice for the victims in that room, other than, I guess, the state president? I don't know. I don't know either. Okay. So was there discussion of the well-being of the victims that you remember? Not that I recall. Oh, my goodness. No, because I never found, I never heard anything about them being counseled, either by church authority or by, you know, outside counsel, that they had never been approached or talked to, or I had never heard that any of that happened. It was kind of just, okay, the excommunication took place. It's over and done with. That's it. So there's 15 men who know that possibly multiple children, girls have been sexually abused. There's pretty much zero discussion about the well-being of the girls. Yes. And it's all about the well-being of the church counterbalanced with the well-being of the perpetrator. I'm just stunned. And then add to that what we know about the Kurt McConkie bishop and stake president hotline for decades. What we know is that the script that the people who field those calls have had historically are questions around only the legal liability of the church. No questions about the welfare of the victims. It's all about like, was the person, was the perpetrator, did they have a church colleague? Did the abuse happen on church property? How much do people know? Have the police been contacted? And then, of course, the advice is don't contact the police. Keep this quiet. So, I mean, I guess I'm saying the Mormon bishop hotline, abuse hotline, fielded by lawyers in Kurt McConkie, the priorities of that, which is to protect the good name of the church and the legal liability of the church with zero discussion of the well-being of the victim. maps perfectly to the priorities of the disciplinary council that you were a part of. I mean, someone please correct me in the comments or email me if I'm getting that wrong. No, I agree with that. Okay. So, okay. So the six, including you say the good name of the church seems to be fine. the six others advocate for Wade, but in the end, was there a vote that takes place? Did the 12 vote? No. There's not a vote at the end? No. Oh, did each of the six advocate for who they're advocating for, and then what? Then the state presidency makes the final decision. And what types of things were said on Wade's behalf that you would remember? it's hard to remember exactly what was said but you know it was just a case of they felt that he was you know most everybody said that they felt he was treated fairly that you know he had he confessed his sins and you know talked and confessed to the bishop and the state presidents knew what was going on and then they basically they left the the room and and went and did their whatever they did in the state president's office and then came back with the decision. And what was the decision? To excommunicate him. Okay. And do you have a sense for, did they say why? No, they felt it was serious enough that it warranted excommunication. But the ward was never told why he was excommunicated. Were they told that he was excommunicated? Yes. Okay. So they did announce the ward, did announce his excommunication, but no one was told why. Because they have to make sure that, you know, he's not asked to say a prayer or asked to do things he's not supposed to do because of the excommunication. But it was also, it was basically put forth that it was an extramarital affair. Okay, wait, a couple things. First of all, I'm just shocked. So you're saying that the rumor that he was excommunicated for an extramarital affair was allowed to sort of spread by the leaders of the church. Yes. Did they actually perpetuate that falsehood? I'm not sure how that came to be, but that's what I was led to believe, that that's what happened. So ward and stake members weren't warned that they had a child sexual predator in their midst. No. They were just told someone's excommunicated. Don't call him to callings. Don't ask him to pray. And he was excommunicated. Please, everyone, believe that he was excommunicated for cheating on his wife, not for being a child sexual abuser. Right. That's what I was told. And at that time, I wasn't part of the ward. So, you know, I wasn't sure exactly how that perpetuated because I was in a different ward at the time. because he was in the Crystal Lake Ward and I was in the Woodstock Ward. Yeah. And when you heard that he was excommunicated for adultery, did you say anything? Did you do anything? What did I say? I was not supposed to say anything. So you kept your oath of secrecy. Yes. Did your temple covenants influence your desire to keep quiet and to not say anything? The whole don't ever speak ill of the Lord's anointed kind of thing? Kind of like, you know, basically it was in the back of my mind. The fact that I was a member of the High Council and the fact that, you know, I was given that charge and that responsibility. And I, you know, I took that very seriously. Yeah. Well, this is just so powerful. So Wade's excommunicated. Nobody knows why. And now he's back in his ward, probably doesn't have a calling. Do you have a sense for how many more years he stayed in the Chicago area before he moved to Dublin Ohio I not I don really know when he moved to Ohio Okay Do you do you have any sense for if he was rebaptized We know he rebaptized because he ultimately ends up in a bishopric which is stunning. Right. But do you know if he was rebaptized in Chicago area or in Ohio? I believe he was. Yes. Which? Yeah, I think he was in the Chicago area. So he would have been rebaptized. Do you have any sense for how soon he was rebaptized after? No, I don't. I searched through all the different papers and wasn't able to find out why, when. Okay. And do you have any sense for whether his brother, Todd Christopherson, knew at the time or later, or any family members, one, that he was excommunicated, and two, Well, I should say, do you know if his membership record was annotated as a child abuser? Yes, it was. That's what I understand. Your understanding is that the membership record was annotated as him being a child abuser at the time. Yes. Okay. Okay. I mean, that's good. Unless it was removed later. I, you know, I'm, I'm trying to find through different records that I've, I've researched. And okay. So, okay. So your understanding, your best memory is that he was annotated as a child abuser at the time. Do you have any idea of whether current first presidency member and apostle D Todd Christofferson a learned about his brother's excommunication B knew that his brother was a child abuser? From what I'm able to find out, I don't know if he ever knew that, but I know that he knew that there was problems back in 2018. 18? 18. Okay, now that would have been long after Wade left the Chicago area. It would have been close to 20 years later. So how do you know that? That's just evidence I found on websites and searching different things. Okay. That's when he was basically, he knew that that had happened. Well, if he was excommunicated for child abuse and it was allowed to be lied about by the members and by leadership that it was for adultery, it has to be—I don't know any other option than that when he was rebaptized. his eventually his records must have been expunged it was removed from his records that he was a child abuser because i just can't imagine and it's possible but that by the time he moves to dublin ohio that he's allowed to be in the bishopric with his annotated records saying he was a known child abuser. According to what I found, it says that he was re-baptized into the Mormon church and that officials removed an annotation on his records at the time. Say that again? Said that when he was re-baptized into the church, church officials removed an annotation on his records. So it was removed when he was re-baptized. Okay, so he, and by the way, to get rebaptized into the Mormon church after excommunication. My understanding is you need first presidency approval, which means that the prophet and or his counselors and or the secretary that runs would have known he was a child sex abuser because it was on his record. They would have approved the rebaptism of a child sex abuser, and that means they would have approved the expunging of his membership record because otherwise he would have never ended up in the bishopric again, right? Right, and according to records or information I found, that there was two bishops, a stake president, and an area general authority that knew in 2025 that he was an alleged child abuser prior to 2025. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we still don't know for sure what D. Todd Christofferson knew and when D. Todd Christopherson knew it. But we can put together almost for a certainty that top church leaders, I mean, okay, here's a question that you probably won't know the answer to. It's clear that members of the warden's stake were lied to about why he was excommunicated. But I get, no, I think we know. if it was annotated on his record that he was a child abuser, then church headquarters would have known he was a child abuser, which means that prophets, seers, and revelators, apostles, general authorities, all the people involved would have known about and approved the removal of the annotation from his record that he was a known child abuser. So they would have been complicit in a cover-up making it so Wade could get rebaptized and become a bishopric member again and not be viewed by his family and friends as a sexual predator of children right right so the top church leadership must have known whether whether d todd christopherson knew or when he knew it i guess even with your uh experience and what you've learned we still don't know that what D. Todd Christopherson knew and when he knew it, right? Right, right. Okay. I found out, Tudor says that a stake president confirmed in 2024 he knew the church had placed and then rescinded child protection measures against Wade Christopherson in 2024. And what I think you're probably reading from is some of the information published from the website Floodlit. So there's a website called Floodlit, which amasses and shares information about child sexual predators or abusers. And I think people have reached out to Floodlit who have been involved in Wade's case, former victims, people who have known him. And Floodlit has put together their best gathering of evidence about what leaders knew and when they knew it and all the timelines. So I'm going to have Julia for sure make sure and include it in the show notes. Check out Floodlit, support Floodlit, but also check out all the information they have. Because I believe you're reading from Floodlit's information. That's where I got the information. Okay. So, yeah, at some point, mid-level and top-level Mormon church leaders would have known about Wade being a child abuser. They would have approved his rebaptism. they would have proved the expunging of his record and they would have approved him being called into a bishopric at some point. They would have known all that and approved it. In other words, the Mormon church covered up and enabled a child sexual predator to not be found out and then also to be elevated to further positions of leadership, which would have put him in the position to be influential again, to be able to just repeat his abuse of children, which as I understand it, he did, uh, multiple times later. Right. Right. Okay. Um, okay. So that, that takes us through him being in a bishopric in Dublin, Ohio. And, um, yeah. And then of course, at some point D Todd becomes a general authority and then he becomes an apostle. And, you know, the thing that the thing, you know, one of the big questions is to what extent does Wade Christofferson's family know that he had been a child sexual predator? And I am just going to put forth based on whatever I do know that it's possible that Wade's siblings, Wade's parents and Wade's children and nieces and nephews did not know that he was a known child abuser. Based on what I know, um, it was not understood or shared amongst the family that Wade was a child sexual abuser. So it's possible that siblings and or children and or spouses and or grandchildren of Wade were never informed that their spouse, dad, uncle, grandpa was a child sexual predator. It was kept from his own immediate and extended family. I believe so, yeah. Because, I mean, at his court, you know, it was never shared whether his daughter knew what had happened at her slumber party. And it's very possible that Wade told his wife it was an affair, that Wade told his children if they ever found out that it was an affair, and that Wade either didn't tell his siblings that he'd been excommunicated or told his siblings and nieces and nephews or whatever that his excommunication was some sort of workplace and discretion, was not child sexual abuse, leaving his immediate and extended family, possibly including D. Todd Christofferson, we don't know, leaving them all to just not know that their brother slash uncle slash father slash grandfather was a child sexual predator. I think it's likely that his own Christopherson immediate extended family didn't know. Right. Yeah. And so that's super tragic. And I, I just wonder how Wade's children and Wade's wife and Wade's siblings and nieces and nephews all feel knowing that the church they loved and supported likely hid Wade's predations from them knowingly. I mean, that's heavy and dark. Right. And the thing is, you know, I look back on that and I go, how could you, now knowing what's going on with him, would you then jump to the conclusion that possibly all these other events were the same type of thing? So what was told to the ward at the time in 96, I would pop into my head that maybe that wasn't what happened. maybe it was this abuse thing way back then. That's what I would come to a conclusion of. Because when I heard this, I went, this has been going on for 40 years, over 40 years. 85 was the earliest that I found. So even before he came to the court in 96, it had been going on for nine, well, 11 years. at that time. And that's what we know in the mental health field generally about child abusers is it's very resistant to treatment. A heavy majority of child abusers become repeat offenders. It often becomes a lifelong habit or a set of behaviors. And so that's why... It's kind of like an addiction. It's an addiction. Yeah. And it's not something that is treatable by the atonement, by belief in Jesus, generally speaking, to just say church discipline plus the atonement is what child abusers need. Keep it quiet. All you're doing is allowing a wolf to consume more children as sexual prey. When you rely on the atonement and church discipline along with secrecy and you don't turn them into the police and you don't give them a legal record and you don't make it broadly known in the families and in the wards and in the stakes, you're literally just allowing a fox to continue consuming the metaphorical chickens in the hen house to protect the good name of the church and to protect the church from lawsuits. Exactly. And that's what drove me to come to you was because I went, you know, I knew the man. He was a nice man. I thought he was a nice man. Yeah. But had he been given the opportunity to seek proper help, this may have been stopped long ago. And that's where I felt really bad about my part of not voicing my concerns and not trying to help this man that I was friends with. Well, I'm not going to correct you, but I will just say if they had gotten him help earlier, I don't know that that would have fixed. I just think child abuse is just something that rarely gets fixed by mental health providers. What usually needs to happen is everyone needs to be told. He needs to be sent to the police. He needs to be convicted as a predator legally. Go to prison. And that way everyone knows he's a predator. Everyone knows that he's not safe. And then everybody, the church, the ward, the stake, the family members, just all never let him ever be alone with children ever. that's why it's just so important that the that the church turned sexual predators into the police versus continually counsel thousands and tens of thousands of victims and family members of victims and bishops award members to not turn the predators into the police which is what Bo Euler says Kurt McConkie counseled him to do, which was to not turn in the sexual predator. And I just interviewed a bishop, a former bishop yesterday, who also was counseled by Kurt McConkie to not turn in a confessed sexual predator to the police. And I've done an episode that Julia will link to, where we read hundreds of accounts of Mormons who were counseled by Kurt McConkie to believe in the atonement, have faith, keep it quiet, and not turn the sexual predators into the police. So this has been a half century epidemic that the church's lawyers and the top church leaders have systemically enabled. And the Wade Christopherson is just one early example, the Boy Scouts of America epidemic with tens of thousands of alleged reported Mormon boy victims, along with all the ones that we don't know of. I mean, that's why it's the number one thing endorsed by applicants to be on Mormon Stories as being the victim of sexual abuse. It's because this system has been in play with the top church leaders and the lawyers for decades. And I remember a time in, you know, in the wards where they said, if you were teaching a youth class or that, you could no longer close the door. You had to keep the door open. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought, where did that come from? Yeah. Well, also when the church abandons the Boy Scouts of America, it's like they almost wanted us all to believe that it was because they were letting the Boy Scouts have gay scoutmasters or gay troop members. Or letting girls in. just cut themselves off from the Boy Scouts, let them go bankrupt to avoid excessive associations with what amounted to a child sex abuse organization cover-up, which the church was too, but it still wanted to cut off the Boy Scouts, I guess. I don't know. See, actually, as a stake high counselor, I was also a unit commissioner to Boy Scouts, but I don't usually tell people a lot about that because I don't want to be associated with the organization anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet, because the LDS Church, the Mormon Church has been so effective at keeping all this quiet, buying off victims, you know, protecting predators, silencing victims, that the Mormon church has largely avoided until the Michael Resendez case and some recent things, Boiler, you know, they've been able to avoid the stained reputation that the Boy Scouts of America have or the Catholic church has, even though you could argue that the Mormon church deserves the same reputation as the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts of America, right? Yes. And that's partly why you wanted to tell your story today. Exactly. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about where things stand today with Wade? Wade's in prison. That's a good thing. Anything else you want to say about how you're feeling now? What you think about Wade now? What you think about the church now? Your own faith? Your own participation in the church? Tell us anything else you want to tell about your story. I'm still a member of the church, although I may not be after this. I'm not sure. Are you an active attending member? No, I don't attend. Okay. I no longer wear the garments. Okay. So tell us about your faith back up to when you started having doubts or questions or behavioral changes. Well, I started doubting it with the CES letter. When was that for you? About, I want to say, eight years ago. How did you learn about the CES letter? My daughter brought it to my attention, my youngest daughter. Wow. Were you living in the Chicago area at the time? No, I was out here at that time. I moved here in 2018. Here to Utah. And that's when I started questioning stuff. So you get the CES letter in 2018. Right. You read the CES letter. What were the top three things that bothered you most about the CES letter, if you remember? Well, just, you know, some of the Joseph Smith myths, basically, is what I want to call them. Like what? like, you know, his polygamy thing and some of the stuff that he did and that he was basically forgiven for. You know, the fact that there was a lot of lies that were told. I mean, how many episodes are there of the first vision? You know, I only saw the one when I was converted to the church, which was the one everybody knew about, you know, was God the Father and Jesus Christ appearing to him. And then that changed multiple times. And then I actually bought my daughter the book, No Man Knows My History. By Fon Brody. Yeah. And that had a lot of stuff in it. Yeah, yeah. And just, it just, you know, and the fact, you know, the hiding of the funds, too, that just, I went, wait a minute. Part of that's mine. You know, and it just, I went, this is not right. Something's wrong here. And it just, and you know, this thing with Wade and that kind of was the final straw. And I went, okay, this, something is drastically wrong. It has to be taken care of. And what, are you saying that just this last November was the final straw for you when you heard about the Wade stuff? Well, I was pretty much done at that point. But then when I saw that and I went, he's still doing this? Yeah. It hasn't been stopped in 30 years. Yeah. And I went, somebody's not telling the truth here. Somebody's wrong. What's your belief as to whether or not, your personal belief as to whether or not, when D. Todd Christopherson likely knew what he knew and when he knew it? Or do you just suspend judgment on that? Or do you have an opinion about that? Well, the fact, I mean, I found that he had apparently heard about this back in 2018. D. Todd Christopherson did? Yes. That's what the floodlit information suggests? Yes, that's what they suggested. Okay. But, you know, I mean, I don't know. I'm kind of taking this with a grain of salt, you know, because I try to research everything. Yeah. It's an unsubstantiated rumor? I don't know. Yeah. Okay. But that wouldn't surprise you? Probably. No, it wouldn't, really. Okay. Okay. Because of all the other higher-ups in the church that basically knew all this stuff and didn't say anything. I mean, that's the hard part is you want to always give everyone, people and the church, the benefit of the doubt. But if you study church history, Joseph Smith was hiding and lying about sexual indiscretion from the beginning. like starting with Fannie Alger Alger in 1836 through Nauvoo or for four years he was propositioning 14 year olds and other men you know women married to other men and lying about it The Mormon church was founded and marinated in sexual predation and sexual cover There's no way to argue that because God cannot be the author of Nauvoo Mormon polygamy. because if God is the author of Nauvoo Mormon polygamy with Joseph Smith, God's okay with 38 year olds marrying 14 year olds, women who are already married, sister pairs, mother daughter pairs. God's okay with sending an angel with a flaming sword to threaten Joseph Smith with his life and to tell the young teenage girls that if they don't marry Joseph and have sex with them, that the angel under God's command will slay Joseph Smith and that the women that deny Joseph Smith's polygamous advances, like Nancy Rigdon and Sarah, I think it's Hyde, maybe Sarah Pratt, that the women who deny Joseph Smith's advances polygamously will be smeared publicly and shamed as whores and harlots simply for saying no to Joseph Smith. There's no way God's okay with any of that. If God's a decent being. So there's just no way, unless God's a total predator jerk, there's no way Nauvoo polygamy was okay with God, which means that the Mormon church was founded in sexual predation, sexual coverups, which means that then from then all through the 19th century with the secret polygamy and then the public polygamy with Brigham and Heber C. Kimball and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff, that's like a half century of sexual predation and cover-ups, sexual deviance and sexual cover-ups. And so if that's the first 50 years of your church, how is that not going to have a legacy extending into the 20th century and the 21st century? How did that not perpetuate what's going on now? That's our soil. That's Mormon soil is sexual predation and sexual cover-up. And I don't want any part of it. Yeah. So the CS letter made you aware of that. Did you ever feel a sense of anger that you converted to the church? I mean, you mentioned Fawn Brody's No Man Knows My History. Do you know what year that book was published? In the 40s. Yeah, 45-ish. So like that information's been out there. A long time. For at least a good half century before you joined the church. Right. How did you feel not learning that until 2018, having given so much of your life to the church? Yeah, I felt I was lied to the whole time. That 95% of what I heard coming from the pulpit was false. Now, and that deserves its own pause and empathetic sort of like response, which is I'm so sorry. And I'm guessing you joined the church because you felt like it was going to help you. Yes. And I'm guessing that all those years in Chicago, you valued in a positive way both your membership and your affiliation. In other words, I bet it was good for you and your family on some level to be a Mormon. Is that right? I thought it was, yes. Isn't that complex that now you feel lied to and angry and deceived, but for decades you feel like you loved and benefited from the church? Yes. How do you square those two opposing things? It's hard to do. It's just, you know, I apologize to my daughters for having dragged them through some of this stuff. Because, I mean, my oldest was, you know, she was baptized when she was eight. And it was shortly after I had joined the church. But my youngest was born in a church. And, you know, she has now, they are both left the church, basically. Their memberships are still there, but they've basically left the church completely. And my youngest is flourishing now because she's away from all this falsehood, all these negative things. I mean, when you have two daughters, I mean, they're not treated very well within the church. And I was just so—that made me upset as well, the fact that I had basically dragged them into the whole situation. You're saying your daughters haven't been treated well in the church? Well, women aren't treated well in the church. Oh. Just generally speaking. Yeah, generally speaking. And you began to notice that over time? Yes. Okay. And my youngest granddaughter, because they left the church several years ago, and she said, finally, I can do what I want to do as a female. Because I think we treat the women horribly. Meaning she could pursue whatever education she wants, pursue whatever career she wants, marry or not marry, have kids or not have kids. Right, exactly. So her life is hers. And I'm really thankful that that's occurred. So this may be an impossible question to answer, but like, are you glad you raised your kids? You could be glad you raised your kids in the church and be glad they're out. Or you can regret that you ever raised them in the church and be glad they're out. What are some good things that occurred? You know, I mean, they made good friends. Both my daughters were very active in the Young Women's organization. We did a thing called Boundary Water Trips that they took. They went three times to Minnesota for canoe trips. They just had a great time doing that. So they had some good things that happened, but there was too many bad things, too many negative things. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, how are you doing now? And how does it feel to have shared this information publicly? How do you feel? Well, I just, like I said, I apologize to the people that suffered because I was not vocal enough at the time. You know, and I just, I'm glad I was able to tell the story and get it off my chest because it freed me up quite a bit. of carrying this, you know, and I was like, geez, I've been protecting this person for 30 some years. Yeah. Do you feel, I mean, personally I believe in the idea when you know better, you do better. Do you feel guilty? Like we're partly responsible for what has happened to the subsequent victims or do you feel like it's the church that deceived you and pressured you and it's really mostly almost all in the church or on Wade or both the church and Wade, you know, now. I think part of it is being sworn to secrecy, you know, gave me a feeling of guilt. That's why I put the apology out on Facebook because I just felt so bad for these people that have suffered since that time because I didn't come forward and try to help people. You know, and like I said, I don't know whatever transpired with all the young women that were victims. You know, especially being the father of two daughters, you know, I don't know what I would have done had I found out what he had done to my daughters. Yeah. I may be in jail. I would probably be in jail myself had my daughters been part of that victim pool, for want of a better word. Because it is a pool. there's dozens of people involved. But we should want to protect other people's children as voraciously as we want to protect our own, but it's also natural to care most about your own kids over other people's kids. Let's just say church leaders and or even members of the Christopherson family have remained or continue to remain silent about all this. I'm guessing that their justification is the church is true or the church is good. And so the bad of talking openly about the, you know, the, the good that could come from talking openly about this and, uh, building public awareness isn't enough to justify the harm that it will cause the church to have this stuff be made public. In other words, the church is so good that we need to keep quiet about the abuse and not talk about it. Because overall, even with all the abuse that happens in the Mormon church, the amount of good the church does far outweighs the bad and the abuse. What are your thoughts on that sort of calculus that leads a lot of believing people who don't like abuse, don't want abuse, but stay quiet about the abuse? and in that way help enable further abuse. You know, what do you think about that decision? Oh, I think that's totally wrong. That's not something we should be part of. That's why I didn't want to be part of it anymore. Yeah. I was just sick to my stomach when I heard all this. And I went, what could I have done? Yeah. And why didn't I? Yeah. But, you know, the secrecy part of it, the fact that I was new to the council, had only been in for like two or three months, and this was important to me at the time, and I thought, but then I went, wait a minute. I can't lie because I'm so sick and tired of the church lying to everybody about different items, different instances, you know, what's occurring not only with the abuse thing but other areas. And I just got so sick and tired of the lying that I couldn't hold it in any longer. What requests would you like to make to D. Todd Christofferson to the Mormon Church? You know, the church has taught us the steps of repentance, which is confess the sin, you know, make restitution, and then, you know, quit the behavior and, you know, do better. I'm probably slaughtering that. But, like, what advice would you give Todd Christopherson and Northern Mormon Church? What would you like to see them change or do? To be totally transparent, especially when it comes to abuse cases. These cases have to come forward. They have to be brought to the proper authorities. We shouldn't hide this stuff. It's just too horrendous. I mean, Jesus said it's better that a millstone be what? Hung around the neck than to harm any of the little ones. And I mean, the Mormon church is named after Jesus. It's rebranded itself to have Jesus be the focus. You think they would take that admonition from Jesus very seriously. It seems like they right now feel like it's better to have a millstone hung around your neck than to have the church experience bad PR or legal liability. Right. That seems backwards. It is. Yeah. It's totally backwards. I would think that probably Jesus is probably weeping because of what's happening. What do you think about the argument that Jasmine Rapali and other Mormon apologists make that the priest penitent privilege, which is if an abuser confesses to a bishop, they shouldn't be turned into the police because that way more abusers will feel comfortable confessing to bishops, which means more children will be protected because they feel safe to talk to their bishop because they won't fear they're going to be turned into the police. So the priest penitent privilege and or the church protecting the confidentiality of the abusers ends up that more children are protected. What do you say to that argument? I think that's, to want of a better word, crap. Why? Because it didn't do any good. Yeah. It didn't, that person, Wade did not repent, period. Yeah. Or he would have stopped. Yeah. And actually the opposite's true because as long as nobody knows and the police don't know, more children get abused. It does not protect more children in the end. It just means that more children get abused because perpetrators are allowed to continue abusing children in the midst of the church. Right? Right. And what I don't understand is how church authorities can look at that and just basically sweep it under the rug because, you know, to my way of thinking, those people need to be punished in some way. Yeah. Because, you know, you harm a little child, as far as I'm concerned. It's the worst crime that you can ever do. Yeah. It's akin to murder because basically you have destroyed that life and it's almost as bad as killing the person. I mean, I want to hope that victims of sexual abuse can still have healthy, happy lives if they get treatment and support. Boy, I hope so. Yeah. I don't want to think that all victims' lives are ruined because then tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives have been ruined by the Mormon Church's systemic enabling. Right. I don't want to believe that's what's happened, but... Yeah. You kind of have to believe that because, you know, it's still happening. Okay, so you want more transparency. Any other things you want the church to do? I can list some. Yeah, they need to basically give the victim some voice. Yeah. And some help because they need counseling as well. Professional counseling. So more support for victims. Yes. Have you heard of the name Sam Young? Does that name mean anything to you? No. Can I tell you a quick little story? You in the audience, a quick little story. Let's just say five or eight years ago, a former Mormon bishop from Houston or from Sugar Land, Texas, you know, became a Mormon Stories listener and started to realize that the church was covering up child sexual abuse. So he led a movement called Protect LDS Children. He did two marches in Salt Lake City, and he got petitions signed, and he led this movement with one purpose, to help the church stop protecting sexual predators and, you know, to change church policies to protect more victims of sexual abuse. His name's Sam Young. You can read about him. I interviewed him on Mormon Stories several times. One of the things he pushed for was to stop these one-on-one interviews where bishops can be alone with young boys or girls because we know of bishops who have sexually abused young boys and girls and that that's considered to be grooming behavior to potentially allow abuse to happen later. Long story short, he led this big movement. He did a fast. He did two marches on Salt Lake City. Can you guess what the fate of Bishop Sam Young was? He's probably not a member anymore. He was excommunicated. For apostasy, because he asked the church to protect children at the expense of abusers, he was excommunicated. Okay, so I'm basically asking the same thing, aren't I? yeah yeah well in a way i mean not as actively maybe but hopefully that won't happen to you i don't wish that on anybody but that's how the church deals with people that speak up that's what they did with me that's what they did to jeremy runnels bill real kate kelly sam young fawn brody anyone who speaks up against the church for victims gets excommunicated and that young man I listen to a lot. I can't think of his name right now from the UK. Nemo, Nemo the Mormon. Yeah. He was excommunicated to Nemo. Yeah. Natasha helper was also an advocate for children and for, you know, all sorts of positive mental health things. She was excommunicated. Like that's another just super broken thing about the Mormon church is they excommunicate the critics that are trying to protect the vulnerable and the marginalized. So it's just, just suffocatingly painful, the disparity, you know, because I think we both have love for the church and the Mormon people, and we both are overwhelmed by the harm that's also caused. Yes. Yeah. Any final words, Edward? No. Except, you know, like I said, I feel for the victims. I just hope they get the help that they need to get past what's happened to them at the expense of others. Yeah. Me too. Heart and help to the victims. Check out Floodlit. It's a worthy website. Check out our past interviews with Sam Young and with Bo Euler and with other victims. Please talk to your bishops and stake presidents. please share this episode. Please subscribe to this channel. That will help us reach the 300,000 subscriber mark. We're only a thousand away. Please share and like this episode and comment on it. That'll help it go far and wide. Please share with bishops and stake presidents and other church leaders so that they can help learn about this problem. That's all super, I think useful. And we just call on the church to make meaningful change so that, this doesn't keep happening. I don't know what else to say. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I'm fine. Yeah. Well, Edward, thank you so much for coming on Mormon stories. You, this fall, it fell off my radar because I have so much and I'm, I felt so conflicted. I think this is a really important addition to Mormon stories. Thank you for your courage and your determination, your willingness to tell your story. Cause I think you're providing very important pieces to the puzzle. So thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And thanks for joining us today. I'm Armistories. Thanks to Julia and Brooklyn for all their help in post-production. And thanks to everyone who donates to make this possible. If you are aware of the Mormon church covering up sexual abuse and explicitly being told by church lawyers, or church leaders not to report abuse to police. And you want to tell that story, especially if you're a former bishop or state president or high councilman, and you can tell the same type of story that Edward can. I will give these types of stories special consideration to put the heat on Kurt McConkie and the Mormon church to change. I know there are lawsuits going on right now as well. But I just want to say this is, you know, I was telling Margie, lots of good things happen in Mormonism, lots of harm. I don't know of a more seriously harmful thing than child sexual abuse enabling and cover ups. It's the lies about the church history, the, you know, the tithing stuff. It's all serious. The LGBT stuff, the treatment of women, the racism, it's all serious. Is there anything more serious than the enabling of and cover up of child sexual abuse? Can you think of anything worse? No. I think this is the worst thing. Yes. I mean, I don't know of like murders that the church is doing. So short of murder, I think child of sexual abuse is the worst thing. So, yeah. So let's clean this up. And again, so if you got a story with evidence that can't be dismissed as he said, she said, you know, or if you're a firsthand witness to the cover up or the hotline or legal proceedings or payoffs or silencing, those are the stories we want to hear most. and please email us at mormonstories at gmail.com or go to mormonstories.org slash apply and apply to be on the show and we'll have as many of you on as we can. And if you want to donate to support Floodlit, donate to them. If you want to support your Mormon Stories to support this type of coverage, go to mormonstories.org slash donate and you can become a monthly donor. And if you can't donate, don't worry about it. We just appreciate you listening and sharing this episode. Thanks again, Edward. You're welcome. And be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Let's stop child abuse in the Mormon church. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.