PERFECT SONG: ‘Boys On the Radio’ with Patrik Sandberg, Plus An Interview With Hole Bassist and Author Melissa Auf der Maur

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it, can you please explain? Wait, like, Bandsplain? Never heard this band in my life. Oh, you have it? I love that, really? Why? Yeah, I love this song. Oh, I don't know that one. Bandsplain, Bandsplain, Bandsplain. I really hate this band! Whatever, I'm their biggest fan. Bandsplain, Bandsplain, Bandsplain, Bandsplain. Hello and welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yasya Salik. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist, but today's episode is a little different. Today's episode is about just one perfect song, and that song is Boys on the Radio by Hole. Also, please stick around after our talk about Boys on the Radio for my interview with Hole Basis Melissa Ofdermar about her book Even the Good Girls Will Cry. My guest today is one perfect man, the triumphant return of Patrick Sandbrook. Welcome back, Patrick. Thank you. I'm so happy to have you. Thrilled to be back. Newly-minted sub-stackinista, Patrick Sandbrook. Back in the long. Yes. It's called The Paraphrenalia, and you guys should really get involved with it. I won't lie, I'm like, of two minds about it. I'm like, this is so great for everyone else, but like, you know when you're like gatekeeping, because you're like, but that's my perfect friend who sends me his perfect thoughts in Voice Memos, and now everyone's going to know his perfect thoughts. Well, gatekeeping is also like kind of the originating principle of the sub-stack itself, because I am paywalling it. It's true. I just figured someone will pay. I also know that some of your more fringe thoughts will be left just to the group chats, and I can feel happy about that. Oh yeah, all the mean ones. Okay, Patrick, before we get started, and try to keep it brief, but can you tell me your relationship to this song, slash album, slash band? How did we think to do this song? You chose it. I did? Yeah, I said we should do, I mean, it was a while ago, we were crafting the idea, you guys famously, or maybe infamously, I don't know if you don't follow me on social media, it's a bit of your loss. But we get asked to do the whole episode quite frequently, and I hear you, you're heard. But Ms. Courtney Love herself has strongly requested that we do not do the whole episode until she releases her forthcoming solo album, and who am I to go against that? And how do you even do a whole episode? Like, would you bring her on? If she wants to, but maybe not as the main guest, because we don't really do that. Right, because that's a lot to go through. It's an outside lens, usually, you know. But we will be doing that eventually, but in the meantime, we have this interview with Melissa Offdermaur, please stick around. Wow, the gingers are taking over. The gingers are taking over. It's a human invasion. And then we were like, oh, we can, we're allowed, at the very least, to do a perfect song on whole to pair perfectly with the Melissa Offdermaur interview. And I was like, well, Patrick, dealer's choice, and you chose Boys in the Radio. I thought I chose Malibu. No. But Malibu would be my choice, maybe. I have to think about this. Boys in the Radio is a perfect song. Well, it's a little late now, because I've done the research on this one. I mean, look, we will obviously talk. It was you and me and our friend Cody, and we consented. Did Cody choose Boys in the Radio? Consensus became Boys in the Radio. Right. Listen, we're obviously going to talk about the other songs, touch on them on the album Celebrity Skin also from 1998. But I think this is actually a great song to kind of dive into, because I do think it has a really interesting backstory, as well as being like a really cool song, which makes a good episode, you know? It feels like it kind of represents a turning point for Courtney in terms of songwriting, in terms of what she was aspiring toward. And if you listen to the Celebrity Skin album, there's sort of moments that really peak, and this feels kind of like a woe moment on the record. Totally. And I also think it represents almost a slight moment of personal softening. Do you know what I mean? In a really cool way, which we can get into, especially when you live through this next to Celebrity Skin, which... Free yoga, post yoga. Right. But two, to me, kind of perfect albums, both, you know, they both really 10 out of 10. Absolutely. But in kind of really different ways. I think Celebrity Skin gets a bad rap. 100%. I mean, we're going to get into that a lot. I have a lot to say about that. But I think partially the reason why is because Live Through This is such a seismic album. It was such like an insane moment that catapulted this person to ubiquity and stardom on like a world stage. Yeah. And it also was kind of like this open wound of an album that was... We had never seen somebody express grief like that before in that way. Which is... But it's... What's so interesting to me is that this is the grief album. Celebrity Skin is the grief album. Yes. Live Through This was written pre... Was not written. I mean, of course, there's plenty to grieve and be angry about. But the way that it played out, you know. Yeah, but the way that it played out for sure. Upon release. And also it is just such a beautiful and intense album. I think a lot of people consider it the best album of the 90s or it's like very, very high up there. Smart people. Yeah, smart people. But even like the idiots, you know, like Rolling Stone. Which camera do I look at when I'm insulting somebody? It's like... I think even like the kind of, you know, the like mainstream media lists tend to rank it very highly even. I do. I was talking to someone else about this. I can't remember who, but I... It's one of my greatest litmus tests, especially of men. Not to put my pink pussy hat right back on. But like, I feel like you can tell a lot about a straight man by how they speak about Courtney Love and how they speak about whole. And even like, I think if you're a straight man at home, maybe just like do a little soul searching because you might not even notice your deeply internalized misogyny jumping right out, you know. Because also it's just like you have shit taste also. Like if you can't hear how phenomenal live through this is. Even shit heads at this point. Right. Admit it. Hang it up. I think the power of live through this and where it is, where it kind of like lives and situates in the kind of like great American songbook at this point. Not Rodgers and Hammers. And maybe sometimes it takes 40 years. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and obviously to address... The golden oldies are what we're talking about today. It's really crazy. To be clear. To like also get out in front of it, you know, one of the many injustices and indignities that Courtney Love had to bear was being accused of not writing her own album and, you know, the accusation being that Kurt Cobain wrote it. And I actually loved in Melissa Aftermar's book, She Says It Really Well, where she's like, these songs are really simple. Like we didn't need Kurt Cobain. Like, or not we, because she wasn't part of the man them, but like she didn't like they're not difficult, like complicated songs. Like Courtney said it in an interview, too. She's like, he would have done it something better. This is not him. Well, they definitely had a shared outlook and he's sense of humor, sense of irony. Yeah, but like put some respect on Eric Erlenson's name, babe. They were married. Like that man wrote these songs, too. I don't know. But also simple songs can be the hardest ones to write, especially the good simple songs. Yeah. Well, let's do a little whole TLDR before we get just to bring us up because I think the context is obviously really important. So formed in Los Angeles in 1989 by Courtney Love and Eric Erlenson. We will not go through each and every personnel change. But at the time of Celebrity Skin, the lineup was Courtney, Eric, Basis, Melissa, Aftermar, and drummer Patty Schummel. First album, Pretty on the Inside, was produced by Kim Gordon and put out by Caroline Records in September of 1989. We've heard we found out recently. No. And also just importantly about Pretty on the Inside, like this wasn't some like nobody heard it who cares album like within the world of like elevated indie music. Like it was voted album of the year by The Village Voice that year. It made Spins Top 20. Like it wasn't, you know, nobody's ever heard of these people. The band toured and supported that record. They had lined with Mudhoney in Europe and the United States. They opened for Smashing Pumpkins, which is, I believe, where Courtney maybe first met Billy or, you know, some time around here. And they briefly dated. And then later she started dating Kurt Cobain, whom she married in February of 1982. Nevermind had been released. Normano's Nevermind. Okay, record scratch. Yes. For the younger listeners. Sure. In the 90s, rock music was like a really big deal. Alternative music was the dominant culture. But really not until 92. And so what I'm trying to say is like indie culture, as we know it now, didn't exist in the same way back then. It was, it looked a little bit different, but the holes renowned around Pretty on the Inside would be the equivalent of like an indie record now that's pretty big. Right. Yes. That does well within the indie space, but hasn't like broken through. So that was sort of where Hole was at back then, like opening for the pumpkins. The pumpkins were also like kind of like the best indie band from Chicago. Right. That then blew up. At this point, they've put out Gish, but not. Simon Street. Simon Street. Yeah. So this is like the incubation period of what is going to become known as like the best of the brightest of MTV 90s, you know, Glitterati, but they're not there yet. And even Nevermind didn't sort of blow up until the top of 92. Like it was like through the Christmas shopping period of December, 1991 and CD buying that like kind of pushed them over the top and they'd be thrown by Michael Jackson. That was a whole huge deal. Right. So anyways, by this point. But that was like smash hit record kind of changed everything. So at this point, Kurt and Courtney are incredibly famous due to the fact of Nirvana being this like massive situation. They have their first child in August of 92, Francis Bean Cobain, whole signed to a Geth and Subsidiary called DGC with an eight album contract in late 1992. Wow. That's Wikipedia. They used to do it serious. I don't have access to the contract with that. Draconian. And then in 93, they were broken recorded their next album, Live Through This on April 7th, 1994. Can I add one thing? Yes. So Francis is born in August 1992. Right. That month is when the September 1992 issue of Vanity Fair comes out. Right. I remember the photos were by Michelle Compte. The article was by Lynn Hershberg. And the article was called Strange Love. It opened with the sentence, Courtney love is late. And it goes pretty downhill from there. In the article, Lynn Hershberg articulates an accusation that Courtney was on heroin while pregnant with Francis. Yeah. Which of course became a lynch pin and a lot of later drama. Also like unsubstantiated. Yeah. Unproven. Just kind of a reckless thing for a journalist to do in my personal opinion, given what's at stake, given that it's Vanity Fair, not Star Magazine, you know, kind of crazy. I know I'm obviously a stan. Of course. But it's also. But I think I would say that about anyone. Like I think that a publication at the level of Vanity Fair would not maybe toss around things that are pretty criminal accusations. Librous. Yeah. I think that there was a kernel of truth to it in the sense that Kurt and Courtney were on heroin. And she stopped using heroin when she got pregnant or when she found out she was pregnant. Right. Which like so much. So she said for until she found out she was pregnant she was. How many girls do I know that have been like doing cocaine in Miami while pregnant without knowing, you know, like, okay. Smoking cigarettes at China's Chalet. Yeah. Sorry. People do a lot of things when they don't know they're pregnant. Or when they do know. Right. And also like just to point out like going through hell and high water because when you put in Vanity Fair that someone uses drugs during their pregnancy, child protective services will show up at your door. And they did. So we're going the fuck through it already. Yeah. Before April 7th, 1994, which is the day that Kurt Cobain dies by suicide. April 14th, 1994, which is one. One week later. One week later. Is the day that holes lived through this came out. I want to talk to David Geffen about this decision. I am curious about it. Would that happen now? No, I don't think so. It's crazy. Yeah. There's something that feels deeply cynical about it. Like, oh, we better capitalize on this. Right, like we better capitalize on everyone talking about this. It was all over MTV all day every day, you know. And MTV was a big deal back then in ways that are probably impossible to fathom now. I don't even know. Like, MTV was Instagram. It was like what everyone was looking at. It was like you would go to school, you would come home, you would. You would park yourself. Refuse to do your homework and you would turn on MTV. And it was like face TV screen. From Kurt Loder, what was going on in the world? I didn't, I wasn't going to know if there was a war honey unless Kurt Loder was going to tell me about it. Yeah. How would we have known about freeing Tibet? Yeah, we'd never. We'd never. The live through this coming out a week after Kurt died was very insane. And not to mention there was a televised memorial. Yes. Where Courtney read the suicide note that is like deeply tattooed on my subconsciousness. One million percent. I mean it was an insane cluster of time. And forget about the album coming out, all of the professional obligations around the album coming out that fell to the shoulders of a person who is grieving the loss of their husband. Kind of insane, but also as like a workaholic, I kind of understand at least the impetus from her perspective to be like, well, what am I gonna do? Sit at home and think about how he's dead. That's not, I would also want to go just do something. She did a little bit. I think, and that's, it all blurs together in our memory because it was such a kind of insane spectacle at the time. Right. But Hold didn't make, didn't do a public performance and supported with through this until the Redding Festival that August. Right, so it was, there was some time, some downtime. Yeah, and it was sort of like, it's crazy with everything that we're about to talk about. It's like, if you look, there's like a two year period of time where Courtney Love's life changed irrevocably. It was like from Nevermind until Live Through This becoming like a platinum selling album. And she became super, super famous. Lost Kurt, lost Kristen, which is the next thing that's probably on here. Kristen Faff, yeah. She passes away in June. So June 16th, 1994, the basest of whole Kristen Faff died of a heron overdose in Seattle. So just like two months after. The hits keep coming, but it's like, Nevermind, marriage, baby. Right, like. Like Kurt's suicide, Kristen dies, Live Through This comes out. All of this is happening in like such a short span of time. That it's like, it would drive any sane person crazy. And this is where they pick up Melissa, which we'll talk about more in the interview with Melissa. So again, stick around for that. And it's very well detailed in her book. I think I heard Courtney once describe it as like, it was like seeing opera to see whole perform in this timespan, which I did twice. And it was, she's right. Like it was like, because she was very publicly grieving. I'm so jealous that you saw them in this period. I was too young. My father took me, thanks dad, to the K-Rock Weenie roast. And then they also played Lollapalooza. That was one of the best sets I've ever seen. Both 95, so I would have been like 12 and 13 years old or whatever. If I can like set the stage for my Courtney Love fandom, if you will, apart from the fact that I'm a gay man, which it will all make sense. But I was extremely young when Pretty on the Inside came out. And I was telling you that like looking back, when I was like very, very young, like from age three until like six, I was heavily into like hip hop and R&B. It's not age three to six. No, but like you remember what music you loved when you were like really, really little. And it was like, besides it being like Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston and Madonna, it was like TLC, like it was Envogue. It was things like that. And it was all like cassette tapes that were my sisters that I would listen to because they were like, what was around the house? And then I just remember really vividly, I must have been like seven years old. My sister was listening to some music that was like kind of unlistendable to my childlike ears. And my mother was really upset about it and was like pounding on her bedroom door, which my sister had like locked or barricaded. And was like, turn that off. And she was very upset by it because it was like teenage horror. And my sister was probably 10 at the time. How did your sister get a hold of pretty on the inside of tape? From Courtney Neeson who gave, who made a copy of the tape for her. Back in those days when this is before CDs even, there would be cassette tapes and you could put them in a double cassette tape stereo and tape the tape onto a blank tape. And so people would pass around records that way. And that was how my sister got it. And cause one of her friends, her bad friend gave it to her. And then as soon as I knew my mother hated it, I was like, what the fuck is this? I need to give it to me and put it straight into my fucking veins. In my veins. And so that was like how I learned about Courtney. Nirvana, I kind of, what's really funny looking back is like my dad loved Nirvana. Really? So I actually thought Nirvana was like a little bit. Or it's like dad music. Lamer or something or like more palatable. But that's also because like my dad loved the, and this is probably years later even, cause I don't know when all of these releases came out, but he loved the unplugged Nirvana album. That came out, I'm pretty positive in 90, I wanna say 95, it was definitely after he died because I remember they played it nonstop on MTV and it felt like you were watching someone play their own funeral because of just the way it was so, like candles and it was so gorgeous, but also like really kind of gothic and sad. There was a melancholic quality to it and like the way it's lit and it was just like, it was such a jarring experience to just watch that over and over again. And it is such a good album. It's an album. Like as an album, it's amazing. It's like kind of underrated. But yeah, I, and it was all over the radio Nirvana was and the whole wasn't, but then she started to kind of appearing in the culture and becoming famous and I was of course just like glued to her, like he was invisible to me, honestly, like because she was there. And so like when I remember when he died, I all I cared about was Courtney. You're like, how is my girl? Exactly, it's like, oh no, Courtney's husband died. It was really that. I can remember all of this, like it was yesterday, it was just so meaningful and impactful. It's so strange to talk about it because it's someone's life, you know, but for us it was like these like larger than life figures that also like the music of these people and the place they occupied in culture changed my life. Like they changed the wiring of my brain. Like I was, you know, 12 years old and was like, I've never heard anything like this with Nirvana. I became so obsessed and like, you know, everything and people who listen to this podcast have heard me tell this story a million times, but like I found so many bands through Nirvana because of a book I read about Nirvana. But whole did come to me after cause I didn't know about pre-on-the-inside. I wasn't cool enough. But I knew about whole, obviously, because I was obsessed with Nirvana and I found, lived through this in a trash can at middle school. Can you believe it? Who threw it away? I have no idea, but like an angel put it right on top of the trash can for me and I went by and I remember listening to it. You just thought, it's like when you would go to the video store and it's like, you don't know what welcome to the doll houses but the cover is staring out at you and you're like, well, I have to watch whatever that is. And it was, it sounds fake, but that's literally exactly what happened. And I went home and I was like, well, there's life before lived through this and there's life after lived through this. You were seduced by Ellen Von Unworth. I was just like, I don't know. Ellen Von Unworth photo at the tears. Well, what young girl doesn't- Of course. Like the image of a beauty queen, you know, just like, of course we all want that. But then the crying and it was just so alluring. And then putting the album on and I, again, I'm sorry if I'm like in reruns, but we are here to talk about whole. So I just never, I had no conception prior to that point that you could be a woman and be like this. Like all we had, even on MTV really, you know, were pop stars and I hadn't, you know, obviously so much existed, but I'm 12. Remember, I don't have access to like Kim Gordon or Bikini Kill or whatever is going on. Like, and I see this and I'm like, oh, you can be hyper feminine, but also a complete like ravaging angry monster. And you can be messy, but like glamorous. Like all of these things in like one, I didn't know that that was even allowed. Well, what's so funny is like, of course, because I was so young at the time, when I was older, and I'm not even saying much older because I was very precocious and I was ahead of my, ahead of the curve for someone my age, when it came to like music and culture stuff, I was very like hell bent on being an adult from a very young age and wanting to know everything about music and fashion and pop culture and all of that. And so of course I got really into like Bikini Kill and Modest Mouse and all of these like bands that were sort of like from around the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Northern California. It was all very like near but far away to me. And all my friends were older and they were like throwing shows at like punk houses and stuff like that. So I had sort of an access to like zine culture and all these things like that. But as I sort of metabolized all of those artists, it made me love Nirvana and whole more. And I feel like I got into it much later. Well, Modest Mouse is amazing. Yeah, because I just related more to their sort of nihilism, their sense of humor, their kind of what they were poking fun at and talking shit about in their songs like resonated with me. Whereas there was sort of like more of a kind of tweeness or like earnestness to some of these other bands that wore very thin for me quickly. I also got really into like Barry A Punk, which is the whole other podcast. Shout out to Jesse Michaels. Yeah, Rancid was big in my bedroom. But yeah, like I remember one, like a formative moment of my childhood was that I had started going to local shows. There's a theater in my town called the Phoenix Theater in Petaluma, California, where like all the bad kids hung out and parents would be like, you're not allowed to go there. So of course I like just walked straight over there after school and like was really annoying and like inserted myself in the Phoenix Theater like scene. And that was where I would see like Blink 182 would come through and like no doubt and all these bands would like big bands would play the Phoenix cause it's kind of a legendary little theater. Some one, right? Famously. And like you, it's like you play the Phoenix if you're kind of on the punk touring circuit, but you would play Gilman if you like are like legit. And then you would play like the Fillmore if you were famous basically. It was sort of the like my conception of that stuff. I had been sneaking and going to shows at the Phoenix Theater but my parents would tell me that I was like too young to go to concerts, which drove me crazy because I was like, you don't even fucking know what I'm up to behind your back. And then there was a Live 105, which was the modern rock radio station in San Francisco. That was the carol of the North. Yeah, which it still is, I think. They're still playing a sublime song if you probably turn it on right now. They're playing a sublime song. They never left the 90s. It's very eerie. They threw a Christmas show, which was there, there's an LA one too that happened. Almost a coaster Christmas. So it's the equivalent of that. And it used to be called Green Christmas or something. And then they changed it to Not So Silent Night. And I guess they thought it was better branding or thought it was a better pun. And there was one year that the lineup was like rancid, whole, smashing pumpkins, the cure. It was like all my favorite bands. My parents wouldn't let me go. And I locked myself in my bedroom and threatened to kill myself if they wouldn't let me go. And they didn't let me go. But Live 105, yeah. Live 105 broadcast the entire show live on the radio and I taped it. And so one of the things that I listened to the most from whenever that was for the next few years was this cassette tape that I taped off the radio. It was probably 96. Because Wild Mood Swings came out that year. So that would have made sense if the cure would have played. And again, you'd still back. The point I think that's really interesting is that once this started, this like 91, 92 of like alternative music, you could be a kid in that era and get it all mixed up. Like you referenced Blink-22. I mean, that's a bit later, but it all kind of, the long tail of the fame of these bands really pushed it all the way until basically the end of the century, you know? Which is actually a great way for us to get to celebrity skin. Anyways, real quick, big tour for Live Through This. Courtney Love goes back to acting. She'd already done some acting in the 80s and some wonderful, sit-in Nancy and, what was the other one? The other Alex Cox movie? Straight to Hell. Straight to Hell, fantastic mom. And then she does Voschia and she does Feeling Minnesota. And then most importantly, she does a starring role in Milo Shformin's critically-acclimbed- Larry Flint, Biopec, an incredible movie. The People vs. Larry Flint. Run, Don't Walk. And this makes her a movie star. Like a full-on. One of the greatest scripts ever written by Scott Alexander and Larry Kershewski. A devastating, heartbreaking performance from Courtney Love in that movie. She should have been nominated. Yeah, she was nominated for Golden Globe, but not for an Oscar. And she did win the New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress. Regardless, I mean, it's an incredible performance. She's an incredible actress. She's able to be vulnerable on screen, I think, in a way that is really important to being a good actress. And funny and like... And charismatic in all the things. But I think the vulnerability is what kind of puts her a notch above, you know? Well, like, when you look at the kind of, the magnetism that drew us to her during the entire period that we just talked about, it's like, at that time, I knew, it was like, atomically, clairvoyantly, I knew that, like, I had never seen a rock star like this before in my life. Totally. And that I probably, on some level, knew that I would never see something like that again. You know, it was like truly like a phoenix rising from the ashes moment. Like, that's like a phrase that gets thrown around. It's like a myth. But with her, it became manifest in this way that was like, it was hardcore, it was scary. Because she was so powerful. She had so much raw, unbridled power, and it wasn't manicured. And it wasn't... It wasn't under control. It was under control, and it wasn't made pretty for purposes of commodification. It was just, it was incredible to kind of behold. Again, I don't wanna harp on it, and because it was a woman, you know? You might have seen that in a man, but I had not seen it in a woman, you know? And this is probably very telling, that the thought that came to me was like, I hadn't fallen in love with a woman like that, since I saw Margaret Hamilton in the Wizard of Oz. I'm gonna say the gayest thing you've ever said. But like, here's the thing about the vulnerability is that I was worried about her. I was like deeply, profoundly worried. And like, I think that's because like, she has that characteristic where when she's being funny, it's fucking funny. When she laughs, you laugh. When she cries, you cry. And like, people talk about John Belushi having that quality. I read this book once that said like, he was the sort of person where if you got into the elevator with him and he was crying, you would be crying by the time you got off the elevator. You know what I mean? That's how powerful their emotional field is. Yeah, and like, whether people couldn't stand her at the time, like didn't like her, and she had all this disapproval of misogyny kind of leveled at her, you couldn't take your eyes off her. Totally. Which is what made her a movie star. You couldn't deny the, just the meteor that was her. So she's very famous is what I'm saying. Right. It's movie star famous. And then there's elements of like, when she did the People vs. Larry Flinthay drug test at her on that movie, so she had to get clean for it. So it was also very like Courtney's cleaning up her act. Totally. Yeah, she's like leveling up in a way. And she's in the Versace ad campaign, which is a huge thing. She starts, you know, she was always to me a fashion icon, but she starts entering like high fashion world in a really like meaningful way. Yeah. And then also. She's being shot by Avidon. She's makeup by Kevin Aquin. She's being styled by Ariane Phillips. Like, Steven Meisel is shooting her for Vogue. And like, she starts dating Ed Norton. Yes, it's all, it's all very Hollywood. It's all very Hollywood. She signs with CAA. She's like in the belly of the beast, you know? She's having a good time. She's having a great time. She's loving it. And people hated that. And people hated it. This is sort of the rich fertile world from which celebrity skin comes. And then the last thing, because obviously everything is kind of tinged by the shadow of the past, is earlier in 1998, the filmmaker Nick Broomfield releases his documentary, Curtin Courtney, that doesn't outright say that she murdered him, but definitely strongly insinuates that takes that point of view in a way. And I would just bring that up because it's like, fuck you. But also that demon is not going away. You know, like even when she's on top of the world, that demon's not going away. Also, it's only been four years since she lost her husband, you know? And this is sort of like all this is going on. The high, high glam, I'm in Hollywood. I'm on the red carpet and that you'll remember the white, like stunning, was that Versace with the little bob just like so glam. The Oscars. The Oscars. But then you have also all this darkness still swirling. And that's what celebrity skin kind of marries the two. Which is so cinematic and impossible to look away from. Also, it's like she's always had this kind of subtext of just like drama and unpredictability. That is part of what makes her so compelling. But people were jealous. Like straight up. It's like they couldn't believe it because it was their worst nightmare. Because it was secretly their dream for themselves. It was happening for somebody else. And it was happening for her. They couldn't take it. In my young opinion, I wasn't there in a meaningful way. But like looking back on it, I'm like, okay, like you're between two worlds, right? You're between this world of like devotedly indie punk haters who are like, you sold out or whatever. And then you have the like, you know, gilded world of Hollywood who's like, you're not, you don't belong here. You know, like, I don't know if everyone was saying that, but like, I'm sure she was getting a lot. There was a split, I'm sure. You read, you would read things, you know? Where it's like living in between those two places. And I really feel like that's a reason that the celebrity skin is so impactful emotionally, because it has all of that like, in the soil of the songwriting. And we said it earlier, this is the grief album. If you listen to these songs, these are the songs that are overtly and directly about grief and loss. It's a grief album, but also Courtney, one of her kind of defining characteristics is that she's so honest. Totally. Like she will always, she will say something about herself so you can't pin it on her. Which is part of like, it's something that I can't get enough of, I really love it. There's like, and I hate, and this is not a judgment, this is just how I'm describing it. There's like a little bit of a criminal mindset to someone who was like, once ever a dope fiend. Like when you're a dope fiend, like dope fiends are very like, manipulative people. They are always looking for like their next opportunity. They're always charming their way around people and with people. And there's this quality of like, entertaining people while trying to like sort of get one over. And I'm not saying that's what Courtney was doing, but I think that she has a little bit of that in her, which I find irresistible personally. It's like a Bugs Bunny quality. Going Bugs Bunny, yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah, I think they don't make them like this, I wouldn't say anymore, but ever. Like it's just like this sort of like unbridled and sort of like unmitigated honesty to the point that it's like sometimes doesn't benefit her, you know? And also this like galaxy brain level way of thinking that like you hear her talk and you're like, I'm too stupid to even like maybe even understand what you're saying or like there's all these instances where like you look back at these interview clips of her talking about something that's so prescient that now we're all talking about very openly, but she was talking about it nine years ago, you know, I was sending you that, of course, my favorite interview with her, everyone can go watch it. It's like seven minutes long. It's the junket or the kind of the press, what do you call it? Like the scrum when you go backstage in an award show when whole was at the 1998 VMAs during celebrity scan. She's being grilled about the Lewinsky scandal, which is just so bizarre that like you're at the VMAs. This is a KFC, you know, like we're at the Wendy's. Do you think the president should be impeached? I'm like, she's giving these hysterical answers. She basically says no right up front, but then later there's a part where the reporters are upset that she said no and kind of dismissed the conversation and they're coming back at her and they're trying to like impugn her for like saying that she didn't think that Clinton should be impeached and she snaps back at them and she's just like, she's like, we make our own opinions and you don't decide them for us. And that's a good thing. And like who the fuck talks to the press like that now? No one has the balls. No one has the cahons, babe. No one has the cahons. But like Courtney, like with the kind of honesty she has, she was admitting that she was ambitious and it's like almost impossible to fathom now because of the way that pop culture is and like the way that everybody's an influencer. Everyone's securing the bag all the time. Oh yeah, like skipping over them. There's no such thing as selling out anymore. See more of the art form part. Like I just want to get to the point where I can sell skincare. Exactly. And so it's like, but she at that time was willing to admit her own ambition, which like kind of put a target on her back, especially among these like grunge purists, whoever the fuck that is, like Caucasian guys that hang out at coffee shops who like certainly have an opinion. You know what I mean? It was like, and in that same interview, she kind of gives this, it's gone viral and it's like a very popular clip of her where she's talking about how like proletariat male rock critics have real denim boomer spring scene issues when it comes to fashion. So good. And she kind of just like defends and explains herself in the most like genius way in like a five second screed. She's hands down, hands down the smartest person I've ever talked to in my life. Like I'm just like, I can't even. So that's celebrity skin. Celebrity skin is coming at that exact moment and it's like, because what the fuck else is she gonna write about? She's writing about grief and loss, but she's also writing about this world that she's coming to. Right, and also interesting to me is how it was like, she was in LA in the beginning. So she's experienced every version of LA, you know? She's a California legend. She knows the gutter depths of like, you know, the late 80s like sunset strip, Jane's addiction ass LA, you know? She's gonna laugh if she sees this, but like when I was in high school, my best friend was 10 years older than me as she was a heroin addict, ex junkie. She married this older hair metal glam rocker named Ron Yocum. Carly's gonna kill me for bringing this up. Who was roommates with Courtney Love in San Francisco? What during Courtney's like San Francisco era? And it's like there was always stories about her and things like that because people knew her because she had been sort of this itinerant like omni-present. Yeah, cause she's always doing- Urban legend. She was always doing music stuff and being part of things. And again, she's in Sid and Nancy way prior to any of this. She was briefly the lead singer of Faith No More. Like there's a lot of lore that we're not gonna get into here with them for the whole episode. The UK era. Exactly, Liverpool, I believe was Liverpool. And before we talk about the song, I just wanna talk also briefly about like what is going on in music in 1998. Cause I think that's also an interesting thing to talk about because to me the nineties are like the decade that things change the most and the most rapidly in. Like you start on life as a highway and you end on fucking Limp Bizkit. You know, like it's just really like zero to 60 and fucking 10 years with the internet and everything that happened. We're pretty firmly post-grunge at this point. By 94, it's like, it's the Weezer Blue album. It's Green Day. Like things have supplanted grunge and kind of pushed aside brighter, more pop punky type things. Blink-22 comes along. We talked about this in the Depeche Mode episode that I was on where like, you know, garbage was like getting very electronic and like Depeche Mode was doing like this kind of electronic thing. Like that people were moving into these other sonic directions. And you have also, I mean, even the pop punk is sort of like has like an also ran next to it, which is New Metal and Rap Rock because Marilyn Manson and Kid Rock have big albums in 98. Limp Bizkit's first album came out in 97. Korn's big commercial breakthrough life as PG was 96. TRL also officially launched September of 98. So this same year is where like MTV's kind of changing into this new thing. But we're still a couple years away from Christina Aguilera, Brittany, like the Pop-Demism. Destiny's Child. Yeah, although Spice World has come out in 97. So that's kind of an important. I say that to be like- The Spice Girls were the canary in the coal mine. Right, totally. Of TRL Pop. And the biggest selling alternative, like Rock albums of 98 were the Offspring Kid Rock, Matchbox 20. Oh dear. Beastie Boys Hello Nasty, Corn Follow the Later, Garbage Version 2.0, Smashing Pumpkins Adore came out that year too, which I actually also think is unfairly maligned. Interesting, and it's interesting that these records hit at the same time. But then the top selling music in general, by Country Mile, music from the most motion picture, Titanic. Okay. Second number one. I'm gonna say that doesn't count, but I understand. The Miseducation of Lauren Hill, believe- Who can argue with that? Share. Who can argue with that? Love and love. Brandy, Never Say Never, Ray of Light by Madonna. These are all amazing albums. The double live album by Garth Brooks, because one thing you bitches and hos will never fucking forget is that Garth Brooks dominated the 90s. I don't care how much we're gonna sit here and talk about all this rock music. It was flawless until Garth Brooks' name came up. My man Garth Brooks was cashing checks all the whole decade of the 90s. You will never forget. Chris Gaines. I don't know if that one did that well, but. And even the videos, the top theaters on MTV, they're not rock ones. It's Brandy and Monica, the boys mind. It's Aliyah, Are You That Somebody. Aerosmith, I Don't Want to Miss a Thing, is like the big rock video. Diamond, Big Shouts. You have one garbage video, Push It, and Sink, it's Will Smith, it's Next, it's Puff Daddy and Faith Evans, and 112, great song. I'll be missing you. Great song, Born of Evil. So Celebrity Skin is, again, in between two places, kind of like Courtney was, it's in between this like little lightly dying alternative rock world, and this new shinier, what is gonna be more pop, right? I mean, it's certainly not going into new metal. But I also remember it was really dominating MTV when the album came out. Because they were running, I remember they ran a promotion because they're, I feel like a broken record sometimes because I bring up the same things over and over, but, and Fanatic on MTV is one of them. It's just a B in my bonnet. Like I feel like they need to take all those old MTV Fanatic episodes and put them on Paramount Plus, because they're crazy, it's crazy if you look back at, everyone did one. But when Hold did theirs, it was when Celebrity Skin was coming out, and there were these amazing promo commercials that aired on MTV, where it was like whole writing in the back of a limousine and like teaching a fan how to like avoid paparazzi and like, you can look it up and watch it. But I remember seeing that on TV all the time, and I entered the MTV Fanatic competition. You don't want to. To be Hold's Fanatic, and I was not chosen. They blew it, babe. The wrong person was picked. The wrong, they did poor casting there. Celebrity Skin did well, okay. Debut at number nine on the Billboard 200, that's not nothing. There was their first top 10 album in the US, even live through this didn't do that. Hit Platinum, produced by Michael Beinhorn, who famously or infamously, I guess, replaced Patty Schummel's drums with a session drummer, because he was sort of a meticulous and exacting and maybe awful man. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I'm team Patty Schummel over here, so. I'm definitely team Patty, but also like the results, like the album is. I'm like, she's an incredible drummer. She could have done that too. Yeah, of course. I don't hear something where I'm like, Patty couldn't have done that. Anyways, that doesn't matter. But it does sort of push Patty out of the band at that point, she leaves. And if you haven't seen Patty's documentary. Hit So Hard, you got it named after one of the songs on Celebrity Skin, a great song. We were talking. Great song, great documentary. We were banding back and forth about the songs on here and I was like, man, there's so, like if I had to pick my favorite, like maybe it's awful, I don't know. Awful goes real hard. Hit So Hard is a really good drug song. They were nominated for some Grammys. Incredible. But I'm gonna tell you what happened. Adding to the war chest of awards, accolades, the four minutes. They didn't win though. They were nominated for best rock album. They lost to Cheryl Crowe's The Globe Sessions. Big mistake. But also look how insane the other nominees were. Cheryl Crowe, Dave Matthews Band, my beloved, and John Fogarty, I'm like, who programmed this? Rock is Dead by 1998 is what I'm saying. The Grammys have never gotten rock cracked. I feel like they've never gotten alternative cracked when that became a category. It's like, it's all a shame to me. This album was critically beloved, you pointed it out. Never gotten a bad review. Well, I'll tell you one person who was dead wrong in Entertainment Weekly, David Brown, he said. She brought that up. In the press, someone brings up the reviews and that there were three bad reviews and she's like, it's all personal shit. Like one of them, David Brown, honestly play the clip. I can't paraphrase it, but she cites each of the critics and why they gave her a bad review. Like nine out of 10 are good. The only ones that are bad are like, personal weird shit. Like all three bad reviews were just the EW guy. David White, I went to my first shit. He had a huge crush on me and I rejected him. She goes off and just like, I'm sorry, I win. This guy says the instruments are boisterous and brawny, but they're as conventional as those on a third eye blind single. First of all, not the diss you think it is because third eye blind, a phenomenal band. It's a compliment to say that. Similarly, Love's voice is less blemished and technically more melodious than the box cutter roar she brandished on Live Through This, but she sounds less razor edged, more anonymous. First of all, that woman couldn't sound anonymous if she tried with every... Please. If she wasn't singing on pitch, they would fault her for that too. David Brown, retire bitch. But all the other ones are like this album teams with sonic knockouts that make you see all sorts of stars. It's accessible, fiery and intimate, almost at the same time. Perfect. That's a really good summation. Overflowing with commentary and bite. This is a far more complex work than the invigorating mainstream coding would lead you to believe. It is the most ambitious and quite possibly the most revealing album Love has made. Robert Hillburn, my king at the LA Times, fucking four stars, Knocked Out of the Park. Anyways, this is wonderful. We are getting into the song, but this is, I'm sorry, this is what I do. I like contacts. Big themes of, well, there's lots of themes obviously of celebrity skin, but one that's a little more esoteric that I want to talk about is water and drowning. Comes up a lot. Water, drowning, angels, stars. Angels, stars for sure. So awful has, he's so deep like dirty water, God, he's awful, little water, fucking, what a banger that song. Hit So Hard has, he's cold, give him a candy coat. He can't swim, but he can float. One by one they all fall down. I look at him and drown. Malibu, you already know, cry to the angels and let them swallow you, go and part the sea. Oceans of angels, oceans of stars. Exactly, down by the sea is where you drown your scars. Reasons to be beautiful talks about how it rains and rains. I weep at your feet and it rains and rains. Dying, just that song. That song. Why don't you just take a spoon that's rusty and put it here and just carve. Are you gonna say put a lighter on Dora? No. Get a straw. So just carve my heart right out with that song. It's so, just crack pipe. Just get crack pipe. But in that one she says, our love is quicksand, so easy to drown. And then Heaven Tonight, which is also an incredible song. I love that song and I love that it comes right after boys on the radio. This is them, this is like the Ronettes portion of the album. Totally. This is about horses galloping in the summer rain and there's a storm in the form of a girl. So lots of water and drowning. I love the dedication on that album. It's so funny to me. To all the stolen water of Los Angeles and anyone who ever drowned. To all the stolen water of Los Angeles and anyone who ever drowned. Again. Gorgeous. Drowning theme. To anyone who ever drowned is actually, I think, pretty specific because. Drowning feels like a metaphor also for. Well, so Jeff Buckley drowned. Pretty, you know, what year or two before this, I think. Althea drowns in the People vs. Larry Flint. Isn't there also an Ophelia image on the back of this album? Is that right? That's why I think he drowned. But it is also an apt metaphor for drug overdoses. Totally. Well, and Kristen Faff died in a bathtub. She didn't. It must have been really on her mind. I mean, after playing Althea in that movie and there's the drowning scene at the end, sorry, spoiler. Spoiler for a 30 something old. For a phenomenal movie. That's based on a true story that also you could have known what happened. But truly, I feel like it's not as often brought up as Tom Adaius or his other films, you know. So I feel like you. It's an incredible film. I do love all my guests as well. It's so gorgeous. If anyone hasn't seen it or they haven't seen it in a long time, revisiting it is just, it feels so expensive. It's a good pairing with this podcast, I think, because we're talking about that era and you'll really see, you'll really see kind of the vibes we're coming from. Okay, boys on the radio that we didn't pick but we are gonna go with. We did pick it. We picked it. We picked it. Again, I think it's a good one. It is a perfect song. We talk, it is a perfect song. Honestly, so perfect that Courtney told me that Jimmy Iovine told her that it shouldn't be a single because it has too many hooks. That song has too many hooks. And she was like, that's the greatest compliment I've ever received. Well, we're gonna, obviously we're gonna get into how it started us Sugar Coma. Right, so, okay. So 1994, the song was originally a song called Sugar Coma, which had much sadder and darker lyrics because. Which was in holes unplugged, which was not. Was not commercially released. I think it was aired, but it was not released. You couldn't watch a bunch of it on YouTube. Can they commercially release it? Like, I'm so curious about these things. Who owns the recording of that? It was recorded. Well, I would, again, I'm not a music lawyer. I assume that the actual recording is owned by MTV, but the rights to the songs are owned by the label, right? But if Hole was on Interscope, like who released the Nirvana unplugged? I'm just saying we could still get this. Should we start an album? Should we start one of those? I want it. Online petitions. And if you look at like the whole Reddit. Should we start going standing outside a Trader Joe's with a clipboard? And by the way, which camera, where do I look? Yours is right there. Interscope records get your shit together. Like where is the celebrity skin vinyl? You can't buy it. That's such a great point. You can't buy the celebrity skin vinyl, babe? I walked over to Amoeba, they laughed at me. How dare? I was laughed out of the building asking for the celebrity skin vinyl. It's like you have no problem reissuing Pinkerton every six months. Pinkerton is a good album. It's a good album, but I mean, celebrity skin sold more. I'm sure there's some sort of draconian, like Byzantine, you know, contractual things that we're not aware of that is like binding this from happening because I'm sure they would want to make the money off of it. We want the celebrity skin vinyl and we want the whole MTV unplugged release as an album. Free, free whole MTV unplugged. You're leaving money on the table. I will go stand outside the Trader Joe's. I will shove over the man who's trying to get signatures for affordable housing and be like, this is more important. Exactly. Who were some of the like cited influences on celebrity skin, the album? I remember maybe it was Howard Stern or something. She brought up the Eagles, which I don't hear that much of, but like the Yardbirds. Like she was like, I want to do this California. Yeah. I don't know. I get what she's saying. Like a song like Malibu or even like, it's obviously doesn't sound like, you know, a peaceful, easy feeling or whatever. But like, I see what she means. I thought it was interesting and it didn't occur to me until I read this, but I was like, oh, I totally this clicked for me. Courtney said to Melody Maker in 1998 that she played boys on the radio for Kim Cobain, Kurt's sister, and she said it sounded like Teenage Fan Club. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Because Teenage Fan Club made similarly like shimmering beautiful songs like this. And I was like, oh, that's such a great comp. Well, according to a little website called Wikipedia. Oh wow, you're really, really going deep. Deep diving. According to Love, her vision for the album was to deconstruct the California sound in the LA tradition of bands like the Doors, the Beach Boys and the Birds. But then she was struggling with the composition and then that was, she sent the song to Billy Corgan and he decided to come to the studio to help. I think, yeah, I think she achieved that, but in a contemporary 1998 way and also in a very whole way. Like it sounds like a whole record. We were texting about this before, but I hadn't put it on in a while. And I was like kind of in my head with swimming the criticisms of like, it's so shiny. It's so glossy. Like what is this? And I was like really expecting it. And I hadn't heard it in a while. I was like, okay. And I put it on. I was like, this is a fucking rock record. Like what are you talking about? It's really just a matter of production I think. Cause like there's also songs on live through this that are straight up pop songs that are just grime-ier guitar and grime-ier production. Again, I'm not great about speaking about, you know, super musical things, but. When you love a songwriter, you can hear their songwriting and all of their songs. You can hear their voice and their things that they return to. So maybe there's a little bit of that happening, but I also think there's a little bit of like almost a tongue in cheek thing happening where she's going back to certain sounds of live through this being like, oh, this is what you want from me. This is what you think I'm going to do. And then she kind of subverts it into something that's a little more like pop. And that happens on all of these songs because like there is like definitely a more kind of unhingedness about live through this. And she screams a lot more on that album that she has on this one. It's so interesting to me. Cause I'm like, okay, what do you people fucking want? Do you want authenticity or do you not? Because what is more inauthentic making this album or pretending to still be the four year prior version of yourself that hasn't changed and isn't occupying this new space? Like, is that not more inauthentic to try to fake it's so really or beyond fake or what I'm gonna fake this? Like, oh, I'm still like a fucking hard rocker, babe. You know, like to me that would be far, that would ring way more hollow than writing exactly from where you are. I mean, that really gets at the crux of why I love celebrity skin so much because like being that kid that was worried about Courtney Love or that was scared of what was going to happen to her. It was like seeing her kind of actualize as this like glamorous figure and to be like have the freedom and the support and the money and all of that to like create this album that was actually about something that meant something to her and to do it in this very like grandiose way. You know, like there's a little bit of Stevie Nicks, especially on this song I feel like, like there's Fleetwood Mac vibe to it. It just feels like she kind of ascended. And then there were people that either celebrated it or that resented her for it. Yeah. You know, it was like she did what no other like fat, loud, hatchet faced punk bitch. Punk rock guttersknife had ever done before, which is she became the most beautiful woman in the world. Like she crashed the Golden Gates, Hollywood Genuflected for her. It was like, she was like a lightning bolt from God to me when this was happening. I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my God, she made it. It was like, we all made it. Everything's gonna be okay. That was like how this album felt. And it sort of felt like a victory lap. Like even as like profound and sad as the record can be at times, it was such an accomplishment to me. Well, and also everything you're saying I firmly and strongly agree with, I think like, you know, people famously and endlessly, I don't know why this is such a human condition. They don't want you to ever be more than one thing. You can only ever be the one thing, right? And they wanted her to be that angry, grieving widow forever. That's who you are. And how fucking dare you all slap your hand away if you try to do something different or be something else? That's like a tension that I think makes someone a really good celebrity or a really good public figure or pop star or whatever it is. Because it's like the thing that pisses off one sect of people is the thing that attracts another. You know, it creates kind of like an alchemy of a moment. Like imagine being a gay kid or like a 13 year old girl in the fucking suburbs and you turn on entertainment tonight. And like that's who's staring at you from the TV. It's fucking major. Like it was fucking major. It's incredibly major. And there's just no, there's no way I can like overstate how important it was. And I can't know. I don't know what teens now have like in for the currency of you know, soothing their soul or seeing what's possible. But I hope it's not just pop stars. And you know, who are like by and large pretty safe and tame. And that's fine. They make good music. It's okay. Well, you get frightened that the entertainment industry might try to package something like this or like try and or that someone really canny will try and fake it. You know, because also what was amazing about it was that it was so real. It was like, you remember the Barbara Walters interview with her and it's just brutal. Like we had a little bit of this with Amy Winehouse, I think of like someone that was being very self-destructive and emotional and raw on this world stage. And it was like, are they gonna make it? You know, like there's something to that that I think is very compelling, but it's not something to be, this doesn't make to be like sought after. I think we get maybe not in a way that we're like worried for their safety, but like I think in the way that they're like an unusual pop star that does not conform to the standards, I think we have it with Lana Del Rey. I mean, just kind of constantly. We have it with Kanye. Well, yeah, but we're not gonna. No. We're not in that rabbit hole today. That rabbit hole is closed for business on. Courtney's old friend, Kanye. All of our old friends, no. Okay, so sugar coma, the lyrics, it's, I didn't ask about this, but I'm assuming it was written very close to the wake of the death of Kurt Cobain because the lyrics are, he said, I'll never ever go away. He said he'd always, always, he would always stay. You know, it's pretty tragic. And it's a sadder arrangement. He said I'll never ever, ever go away. It's really beautiful. It's really beautiful. It's a fan favorite, I think. It's really sad. It's a fan favorite. And I also want to poke a hole in this a little bit because I just think it is such a kind of common refrain for people to complain when someone changes something that they love. You get demoitis, so to speak. And if you go online, everyone is like, it was so much better as sugar coma. I wish they never changed it. I wish boys on the radio never happened. Fuck off. First of all, we get to have both. No one's stopping you from listening to sugar coma. There's also totally another song on celebrity skin that to me takes that place, which is dying, you know? Yeah. And also it's like, when you listen to sugar coma, the chorus feels work and progress to me. It feels kind of like an unformed song. It feels a little like placeholder lyrics. We're gonna get into it, but what boys on the radio became about is very different than what sugar coma was about in terms of the lyrical consideration. And it's so much catchier. I think the chorus of boys on the radio is one of my favorite choruses. It has maybe, I can't. Too many hooks, babe. Maybe the best bridge on the album. There's a lot of really good bridge. The Malibu bridge is iconic, but... You don't have to choose. We don't have to choose here on there. Melissa said about the song. It is an example of one of the songs on the record that took four years, basically, from the moment I joined the band the first time that we rehearsed together. When we put it live, it was the song called Sugar Coma that we did for MTV Unplugged. And that was kind of a country sad love song. Or sappy, no sugary, love beautiful, whatever. And when we got to the studio, we wanted to take it one step further. So we had our friend Evan Dando from the Lemonheads. Who's a... What? Yeah, so, okay, this is on... You guys, one of you have this. I did listen to it, but I think she gets cut off. They made an interview CD. Do you remember this? They made a CD of the interviews. They have a couple copies on discogs. Where it's just them talking about celebrity skin. And that's from this. So, Dando does not have a writing credit on this song. But I don't know if he like, zz-z did a little. Again, I'm not really sure and I didn't ask. But there's some Evan Dando moment at Melissa alludes to. What Courtney said to me is, okay, well, during a block of songs on K-Rock in 1997, Edward and me were in the car. And I was astonished because there were four songs about me in a row. And after the ads, two more, plus Glycerin. She's like every girl I've ever been friends with. I swear to God. I mean, I'm sorry. I don't know if any girl you've ever been friends with has had four songs back to back on K-Rock about them. If you ask them, I'm sure they would say they have. She said, after the ads, I just blurted it out. And I'm not crazy. I know all these guys. Then I of course went ahead and did my FBI work where I was like what songs could these have been? What songs would have been in rotation in 1997? Yeah, it's not that hard actually to piece together. Obviously, Heart Shaped Box by Nirvana was still in very heavy rotation. Although, as we just recently learned from the Billy Corgan podcast that Courtney appeared on, which was full of learnings. Learnings. Yes, full of amazing learnings. That the chorus of Heart Shaped Box is apparently about Kim Gordon, hey, wait, I got a new complaint forever in debt to your priceless advice. Hey, wait, I got a new complaint forever in debt to your price and to my... And the rest of the song is obviously about Courtney's Heart Shaped Box. Foo Fighters, I'll Stick Around, is, was for many years allegedly about Courtney, but Dave Grohl wrote in his book, I don't think it's any secret that I'll Stick Around is about Courtney. I've denied it for 15 years. Was that a single? Yeah. I'll Stick Around, I'll Stick Around. It's a mean song about Courtney. I don't know you anything. I don't know you anything. Swallowed by Bush, I would imagine, would be on the radio at this time. To me, arguably the best Bush song. I love that song. Now I know why. Everything but my love swallowed. Everybody, everything but my love swallowed. Yeah, so that's a little Courtney moment. Crush With Eyeliner by R.E.M. Cue. Courtney has said, and I believe her, that this is at least partially about her. I believe it's also partially about just Clam Rock and the New York Dolls, but I think she is a muse of this song. Won't you be my bedtime? Crush With Eyeliner. There's one Smashing Pumpkin song off Siamese Dream that is about her, but I don't think it would've been on the radio, which was Luna, one of the most beautiful songs. Just fucking, imagine that song's about you. If I just, that one song about me could die happy. There's some speculation that there are multiple other Smashing Pumpkin songs about Courtney. Probably. Zero and Tonight Tonight, in particular, which also would've been on the radio in 1997. But what I love about the Smashing Pumpkins is that their lyrics are so not didactic in that way. You never know what they're talking about. Yeah, he's always talking about some bitch named June, who doesn't exist. His lyricism is very phonetic and abstract. But I do like there's a little FBI moment of Tonight Tonight, because Smashing Pumpkins, we're like, that's not about her, it's about himself. He says, in your city by the lake, the place you were born, he was born in Chicago by the lake, but there is some footage of him in different recordings saying city by the bay instead of city by the lake, which Courtney was born in the city by the bay. So was I. Yeah. Other songs just for funsies, you guys, that are about Courtney Love, but did not come out till after 1997. I was like, the new radicals you get when you get. The new radicals, which is not even about Courtney, but they will go to their mansions, drop their mansions, kick their asses. Courtney Love and Marilyn Manson, yeah. You get what you give by the new radicals. Holla Back Girl by Gwen Stefani. Wait, what? Wait, have we never talked about this? That's her like Shots Fired song at Courtney. Yeah. Oh my God, that's so corny and hilarious. Because she was like, Courtney did an interview with like 17, some sort of teen magazine, and was like, basically like I'm not, like Gwen Stefani is like the cheerleader at the high school, and I'm the girl smoking cigarettes in the bathroom. She wasn't even like taking shots. She was just being like, she's the popular pretty girl, and I'm like the bad girl. Well, that was a little bit like she's not really rock. You know? Yeah. That it's... I think she might have also been mad about some interactions between Courtney and Gavin. I believe earlier we talked about how Courtney doesn't lie. No, yeah, she's just not lying. Did she lie? No lies to tell you. Anyway, that's what Holla Back, so thank you, Courtney Love, that if you like Holla Back Girl, you can thank Courtney Love. Everyone loves Holla Back Girl, to be clear. Yes, it's a great song. Good job for all. Like Gwen Stefani. Starfuckers, Inc. by Nine Inch Nails, off the fragile. I fucking love that song, too. Courtney Love and Marilyn Manson also very much like the new radical song. The Strokes Meet Me in the Bathroom is allegedly about Courtney Love. Well, then she in turn wrote, Julian, I'm a little bit older than you. Exactly. So anyways, that's the basics. I can't wait for her song about Cameron Winter. We all know it's coming. Oh, dear. Oh, my. That was the impetus, right? Hearing these songs on the radio. And then she also said, and I loved this, Courtney said, those songs on the radio were the, that was the basis of the song. But as I wrote it, I decided to make it an empathy song, the best ones, no longer about staking a claim for myself. It's about all those boys. One of the songs was one of the two Scott Weiland wrote, I kind of remember, who was never a lover, a drug buddy probably closer than a lover, but I busted him on why the fuck he was riding a snark about me. And he said, you're just too easy and I was tired. Anyways, my point being that it was, she decided to make boys on the radio. She shifted the perspective to having empathy for these boys on the radio. And I think that's where you also get the line about Jeff Buckley in your endless summer night. That lyric is about Jeff Buckley because he drowned on a summer night, when the water is too deep. When the water is too deep, you close your eyes and really sleep tonight. I saw someone say something that I thought was so beautiful on Reddit, my favorite website. No, I don't. It's the only place the truth exists. Honestly, I mean, there's some real poetry to be found there, but somebody had said something and I don't even really feel like this is accurate, but I was like, what a beautiful thought that they were talking about how, in that lyric on Boys on the Radio, endless summer night being about depression and death and whatever else. And she says, I'll be on the other side, of course, meaning like I'll be here living while you're gone, but that you can flip it around. And it's like she's singing to the listener of the song who might be feeling that way, that she's on the other side, she's on the other side of like the radio speaker. Oh, the radio, right. Like that I'm over here. And I was like, that's so moving that someone would like receive it like that. I love that. I know. I'm gonna cry. She put the empathy in and it was received, whether it was in a different way. And I just love how she sings that chorus. It's sound like meh, meh, meh, it's like Corgan-esque. Yeah. For that. I'm on the radio. This song, by the way, to be clear, does not have a Corgan writing credit on it. I think it's another reason why I'm glad that we did this particular song off of Celebrity Skin because even though I think it's pretty stupid and unfair the way people talk about Corgan's involvement on this album and give him like the lion's share of the credit for it, at least, at the very least on this song, you can't say he had anything to do with it because he didn't. But also, isn't that because, I'm like, Jane, don't use this. Isn't that because there was some dispute where he said that she wasn't crediting him enough or that she was downplaying his credit so that everyone then reacted by giving him too much credit? There was a whole feud afterwards that I didn't dip my toes into, but I think he said something publicly about how it's like he has a bad taste in his mouth about the album or like, and then Eric was like, but he just came in and kind of like vibe tweaked some songs. So it's unclear what happened, but that aside, nothing here. So she said she heard this rock block. Courtney is the muse rock block. You've heard of a cock block, but have you heard of a rock block? Have you heard of a rock block? Inspired by Courtney. She wrote the lyrics to the song to Boys on the Radio and she said she decided to make it an empathy song because those are the best ones. That's the divine feminine coming in. That's the divine feminine, 100%. Like truly. That is the divine feminine. That's the difference. And this song has this like beautiful feeling of like warmth and tenderness and safety in it and sadness and sort of like all in there. And a little bit of like obsession and adulation. Well, yeah, and the fandom. Idolatry. Yes, of course, the idea of being a fan. One of my favorite things about the song is like how it ends because she goes into the chorus again, but then she changes the lyrics. And there's this lyric where she says, when the water is too deep, I will ease your suffering. When the glitter fades in morning, turn away and you will find my empty eyes. Which is like insane to me. That's the most genius insane lyric because it's like I'm done crying for you actually. It's like, you know, like you're not here anymore. Like when the glitter fades in morning, I've had it. You know, it's like sort of like you left me here. Yeah. And then she goes into, I know that you're right into the core. It's like that it's eating you alive actually, how much you love these men. Like that it's actually toxic in a way. It's so smart. The lyrics are brilliant. The song is brilliant. It feels so good. I love that Courtney told me she was like, I prefer to lie about songs because I think it's more interesting. So she's had multiple other stories about the song meaning. She told Spin that it started all peppy and poppy, but then Jeff Buckley died and it became an homage to Evan Dando and Jeff and Brian Wilson. So I guess that's the Evan Dando of it, right? They were just thinking of the sort of tragic Evan Dando in 1998. It's about self-destructive pop boys. And I can't help just because it's Courtney to think that she's like twisting the knife a little bit in the song of like, oh, you're so miserable. You're suffering. You're so beautiful. Like, oh, we care because like she is a little like jealous and competitive. Also it's like the luxury of, this pink pussy hat, a better effect to get a nice one because I keep putting it back on my head, is a luxury of men to wallow, to feel sorry for yourselves and to make that beautiful and glamorous and seductive. It's not beautiful and glamorous and seductive when women do it. Courtney was like, I have to get on with fucking business over here. Like for me to achieve what I've achieved, I can't sit around and feel sorry for myself. But she's like, I'm gonna be here for you. And she's like putting herself in the position of like the adoring fan, but she's also being like the mother that's caring for them. She's being like all of these sort of like feminine archetypes within this song in this way. And it comes across like really sincere and really sweet. But then if you think about it, it's kind of funny. It's, as with like a lot of I think things that Courtney does always has like a streak of humor in it. I liked this other interpretation which came from that whole interview CD. She said it became about a girl who sits alone in her room and listens to the radio. The boys on the radio sing to her and promise her that when she gets to heaven, they'll be there. She thinks all the songs are about her. So not that different from the actual spark of inspiration, but then that's such like a moving- And that's a pretty literal meaning, but it's such a funny thing to make a song about. Yeah. And she did say this one thing which I wanted to ask you about. She said a song like Boys on the Radio is really pretty, but there's subversion going on. And I think that's what you just kind of nailed with those, the way the lyrics twist at the end. And like, if you're not listening closely, you won't catch that subversion. Exactly. And the bridge that I brought up earlier that is my favorite is when she says like, if I let you in under my skin and risen every angel slain, he said he'd never, ever, ever go. The heavens, heavens, heavens know. She kept that a bit from sure. Yeah. And then never, ever, ever go away. And she goes, baby, I've gone away, which is the most like gut punch, like sugar coated, like sugar rush of a lyric, I think on this entire album. It's like so like, you know, it's like euphoric when you hear her say that line, but it's also histrionic and it's hilarious because that's the point in the song where she's like, I've died, like I'm dying with you, I'm going with you. It's like the extreme devotion moment of like, she's like so, she feels it so much that she could just die. And like fans feel that with artists. Which is how I felt about Kurt Cobain when I was 11 years old. Yeah, it was like, take me with you. Kind of like, speaking of being histrionic. Don't leave me here. It's like just like hormonally miserable 12 year old, like misunderstood, ugly braces, one eyebrow, okay? Acne, like frizz balls, this child bearing hips. It was, Fat, sunburned, Catholic school uniform, calyx, crooked teeth. It was like pick a struggle, but I had nine. Gay. And just listen, these were my saviors and I was like, take me with you. And this song really gets to the heart of that. And not until I was 43 would I understand the rest of it. I mean, thank you for forcing me to pay this much attention to this song. You know. You know, we don't do this enough. You just hear it in the car and you kind of sing along ambiantly and like certain things hit sometimes and some things don't. I'll close it out by saying a quote from the spin magazine cover story in 1998 about boys on the radio by the writer Isabel Castro Cota. Not this one. This one's 95. She said, I just really loved how she said it and I think it kind of sums up everything we've been talking about. And I'm really glad we chose this song because I think in the end it really was the perfect choice. Well, you are the subject of the song and all the boys on the radio are all the bands that you're explaining. That's so true. I'm just mooning by the radio. This is your theme song. So Isabel Castro Cota said, there was undying anger and love and contempt in boys on the radio. Mythic poetic images of vanity and self-loathing all interwoven in a pop melody. And that's the magic trick of the song, right? That it is a sugary pop song that contains within it all of this depth and barbs and non-nike menage and intellectualism and mythology. It's just like what's crammed in complicated emotions into this beautiful like medicine. Well, what else do you expect from a genius? Amen, brother. I hope that everyone that wished that it would have stayed sugar coma can now appreciate the song in a different way. Right. Because it's obviously, there's more to it then. Some people would have got a fair. Definitely was elevated, I think, from while sugar coma is a great song, and that feels sort of just like a raw emotional missive. This is something like far more intricate and interesting. Agree. Well, Patrick Sanberg, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy life to- It's my pleasure. Talk about boys on the radio. Please stick around for my interview with Melissa Offdermar right after this. You guys, I'm so excited to be talking to musician, artist, and author, Melissa Offdermar. Did I pronounce that correctly? Perfect. So German studies over here. Whose new book, Even the Good Girls Will Cry, Colin, My 90s Rock Memoir, just recently came out. And you guys, this is, you gotta look at what I did here. You gotta get into this. I'm very curious. There is all of my favorite things. There is goss, there is tea, but there is also spirituality. There is philosophy, there is reflection. It's good stuff. Melissa, am I seeing it? Oh, yes. Am I seeing it? I'm gonna flip through while you ask me questions. I'm just so excited to be talking to you. Obviously, I'm alive. Thank you, I've heard amazing things about you, Los Angeles is a far away sister city for me. And I'm very excited to be here for a weekend occupation and you're a new music woman to meet. So nice to meet you. So nice to meet you. Well, you lived here, right? You've had your time in the trenches. I had a serious chapter, which the book ends in my, towards the end of that celebrity skin owed to California. And then I eject and leave once I leave whole, yes. But yes, I had a very deep chapter here. Just in case for like the three people who are watching this who don't know who Melissa Offnimar is, cause like you're just obviously kind of on the wrong log, I'll be honest, we welcome you all. But she was one of the basists of whole, but in my young life and in many people's eyes, the most iconic and memorable basis. I was there the longest. You were there the longest. Not the competition, but it is the fact that I was there the longest of any of the other basepapers. And at the height, you know, like really at the breakthrough period, posts lived through this coming out and all the sort of real MTV moments and the touring, the fan, the Lollapalooza that young 12 year old, actually I would have been 13, 13 year old, Yossi attended. And I feel like, did you guys play the Karakouini roast that year too? Yes, we did do everything. My dad brought me to them, manager. And also she played in Smashing Pumpkins. No big deal, just well, Back to back. For the music at all, I feel that's actually a good entry point for me to say like one thing that I really loved about the book that you did is, and this was just you being honest and being authentic, but you're very good at reminding people through the story that these were bands in a subculture. These were underground bands that were playing in these small places and it was word of mouth. Cause I think, you know, for people in 2026 who weren't there at the time, these are massive iconic. It's impossible to imagine that they didn't come fully formed right onto MTV on a major label. That they were playing for $1 in front of 20 people. Yes, Looney Night. Looney Tuesdays. Looney Tuesdays. In Montreal, Canada, which is how I was exposed to all these bands. Yeah, I was like a ticket girl DJ. I watched and the book is an ode to the decade that defined me and my generation, 91 to 2001. So the listeners know it's a very specific arc of that 10 years and what I witnessed as a girl obsessed with music and then who joined the big bands. But as a just comment on general what happened in that decade, how subculture went to mainstream the hijacking of visceral zeitgeist youth power into corporate hell zone. So I'm very clear that that's what I want the reader to join me on is when something so magical and innocent slash demonic, the cool, like the way that the explosion from 90 to 94 was phenomenal. And then very quickly we got bought and sold and everything just went to pretty, literally death drugs, soul sucking situation in the second half of our 90s music thing. So yeah, I really wanted to do a lot of things with this book, but I wanted to make sure that I brought the reader into the innocent place of me as a teenager who fell in love with the music who then somehow joined her favorite bands. But it's a right of, it's a telling tale of what happened and how we got here now with the corporate tentacle, techie, creepy zoids. It's a common theme on bandsplain actually where I talk a lot about how in my estimation the 90s were the most like change crammed into one decade. Like from the way the world was in the turn of 1990 and the way the world was when the clock struck 2000, two different universes. Well, we've went through the portal of the 21st century and we were the generation that, and the youth culture that birthed the painful, I mean, I see us like literally screaming through the birth canal of the 21st century. We were arrived in a new universe between Y2K and 9-11, which is where my book ends. It's simply clear that we no longer live in the same world. And it's not that the 90s music is like the best, but it is the last of that analog reality and that our generation, like all artists of any generation, have a psychic premonition of what's around the bend. Just like the turn of the last century, I look at things in hundreds of years, not in decades. And I studied photography and art history and I'm looking at what were the turn of the century, romantic movements in the Industrial Revolution a hundred years before. And we're just a reflection of the brave and terrifying shift of a clock that was more dramatic and most artists kind of had lived in a certain similar analog way for hundreds of years until the digital arrival. I also think one thing that was a real be careful what you wish for, project me from what I want if you wanna have a Jenny Holzer moment is like, the minute the subculture became mainstream, it was like one year of like, yes, this is so cool. And then with it, like you said, comes so much shit storm and terror. And now I think I talk a lot to like younger people where I'm like, I can't, if I could bottle the feeling of being 13 years old and going to Lollapalooza and being like, oh my God, there's other kids like me who like this weird stuff. Like it wasn't everywhere, you know? And now it's like impossible, in a good way. Like I was, I just came back this morning from Boise, Idaho going to Tree Fort Music Festival and I just looked around and it was like every kind of subculture represented often in multiple ways in one person, you know? It is very different. It is cool, the mix and you hear it in the music. The cool new music is like not one kind. And we were still in a more black and white 1900s categorization, even me as a multimedia artist, I was a photographer musician. And I remember it sort of being suggested like, well, you have to pick one. Yeah, one, right. Yeah. No, I may renise as person, I'm going to pick all. And that's what's so exciting. And I'm so grateful is that in my fifties, in this decade, I get, and this year, 2026, I get to present myself as a photographer, and I'm forever a music fan first. And music is what is the subject of so much of these, this new creative force I have decided I want to share with the world, but it is a, it is because I want to connect with people about that innocent subculture moment that we are still trying to unpack of like, we did see a lot of greed kind of ruin. And I love that there is alternative everything, everywhere, all the time, but because it's all done through so many corporate stamps, every single platform. Well, I'm not sure it's alternative anymore. Well, exactly. I mean, just like it's baked into the words alternative to what, what's alternative now is the alt, right? You know, unfortunately, like, that's the alternative. That's true. But they're not selling that at our bidon. Yeah, it's more that the corporate tentacles are everywhere and everything is monetized through a corporate platform and that even the coolest musicians at this point are branded and associated to some giant, you know, we were trying to resist that. Like I remember so clearly, you know, the beginning of being offered like fashion campaigns for Courtney and just it being shocking that, you know, now every band, but I don't blame them. They literally need sponsorship because you can't make money in any other way. I don't even, it's just such a different beast. Now we always pinpoint it back to the, I think the shins at a McDonald's commercial or something. I always like have a triangulation of like the point where selling out stopped existing and this is no shade to the shins. Like a hundred percent take that McDonald's chip because that came basically on the heels of pirated music. So like CDs stopped selling, you know, like you stopped being able to make money and now everyone's like, yeah, we'll be in a Taco Bell ad. Yeah, exactly. Or else I can't pay rent. It's not the artist's fault. I'm just saying that our creative communities reflect the evolution of the corporate takeover of everything. And that's what I'm also really desperate to want to be in dialogue with cross-generational music art people on this tour of this book. It's like, was there something like particular about this timing? I presume it took you like a year or two to write the book, but this timing that you were like, oh, I need to do this. Yeah. Like it's getting to a fever pitch. I need to write this now. Definitely fever pitch exploded out of me. Like a weird waterfall volcano of just downloaded the whole book in a year. It was a combination of very, very personal, about to turn 50, daughter gonna be a teenager, me wanting to unpack my coming of age story for myself and healing, but for also my daughter to like not have to carry my garbage. Like we have a job to do as parents to like move through our big lessons. And a lot of what happened in the night, I definitely went running from a lot of the 90s when I ejected myself from that big machine. So there was a lot of unresolved stuff. My father died really young during the in the 90s. So I needed to like heal unpack that. And there was just enough time that had passed that I felt like I could objectively look at it, but it was also mainly to participate in the cultural reflection that a quarter of a century passed is exactly when you can start pinpointing the ripple effect and what is still my hope is to hunt what is missing, what is still alive between what made the 90s magical. And it's not a nostalgic thing. It's just a humanist thing. Like what are we missing now that we had then? What can we learn from the 90s? What can we bring back? And then what is still intact? So it's a way for me to participate in the dialogue because the world has gone to a pretty garbage crap and I wanna be able to be part of the solution. I don't wanna just sit back and I mean, that's not just not the type of person I am, but I wanna be able to be out there and learn from this dialogue with you, with the Q and A tomorrow when we talk to an audience. I just wanna like better understand, take the temperature and bring my lens to it. This book is my mission statement of the lens and perspective of my experience riding that end of the analog era. And now that it's out in the world, what's gonna come back? I'm just gonna learn a lot. I wanna learn about where we're at. So that my daughter and her teenage friends can have a cooler future if possible. Totally. Yeah, I'm so interested in that project because I go back and forth all the time where I'm like, I don't wanna be like old man shaking my fists at the clouds, you know? Because I'm like, okay, well, I'm sure my parents looked at me at 15 and was like, what are you doing? This is dumb. Like you- Weirdly though, in my book it's clear, I don't come from super progressive counter-cultural parents. So like that's why I am convinced that the counter-culture people who are born from counter-culture people, I'm pretty progressive and I am concerned about what the youth have today. They are being dealt a very bizarre way of interfacing with the world and art and each other. And I'm pretty pissed at the corporate tentacle creeps that have come between youth and life experience. Of course there's good shit in the internet. I'm not saying the internet is evil, but it's the function. But the mechanization of the internet is evil. I mean, thank whatever just happened this week. The meta is officially held accountable for making an addictive product. I would love to throw my lawsuit in the ring here. That's how I kind of know that I'm, it's not a hundred percent me being out of touch because I'm like, well, whatever, like 16 year olds are suffering from, I'm also sick with it. You know, like I promise like I'm ill as well, like on my phone, then the same way. Absolutely, it's not the young people's fault. That's why my daughter and her friends, they know me as like the super cool but unbelievably annoying mother that's like, oh, you see that? And then the new joke lately has been like, Melissa, River's never gonna fall in love cause she's on her phone because I'll like storm in. I'm like, you are not gonna fall in love on that. You know that, right? You are not gonna find the magic of music there. You have to get out into the world and find that person, find the band. So I'm both the cool, fun and really direct. This thing will get in between you and happiness. But yeah, me too. Of course I have like all fractured. My brain is like in 17 places. I have no attention span anymore. I'm like, wow, that's interesting. So it's not their fault. It's like we're all suffering from this. And every single thing is like an app, like every friggin like check in, every bank. I get it. There's conveniences that we need but we also need to be super aware. And that's what my book is trying to be part of, is aware of how we got here. Yeah. And also where we're going. I mean, don't get me started like that it came out that Pokemon Go was actually just a way to gather. It's like the most nefarious thing is that not only are they profiting and benefiting off our addictions, they are, we work for them for free. These kids walked around catching Pokemon, like they were playing a game. And what they were doing was mapping the world for these, now they have maps. I have not heard of this one. I'm not surprised. Yes, is that not insane? Now this company has gathered like complete maps of all places in different weather, in different times of the day, because kids were filming to catch these Pokemon Go. Unbelievable. No, I mean, they were just all ponds in the big, like it's like the Wizard of Oz, the big, you know, this weird wizard behind the curtain. I mean, they're just manipulating. We know this, but, and it's not that it, it's always been like this. It's just that the tools are way more infiltrated in our daily life. And like living a pre-surveillance era, which I talk about in the book in the 80s, when I was like a teenager coming up in like goth clubs and just nobody watching. And like that whole thing of dance, like nobody's watching. That's how free life was. The self-consciousness of youth not being able to just be free alone in their room, bored, finding things to do. Weirdly safer. I was having a conversation with a girlfriend of mine as a musician. She's about 29. And I was trying to explain to her. I was like, I don't think you understand, like every decade has gotten harder for people to have fun in a free way. Like it's in your book a lot. And I was really struck by it every time. Like, you know, there's like, people are just doing fun things. You're out till four in the morning. You might do one line of cocaine here. Like you can't do a line of cocaine here and now. You need a testing strip and a lab, you know? Like, and I'm not saying go do cocaine. That's not what I'm saying. But it's just like, you used to be able to just have of kind of a fun and free existence. And then you think back, it's like the 70s were even, more like that. And it was more pre-ades, you know? It's just every decade brings with it these like new restrictions on how unsafe it is to just be a person in the world or how it feels anyway. And then I'm gonna bring it to even more specific to women. So like women's safety, which I always say to my teenage daughter and her friends, never take women's safety for granted. Never take your, you know, your body rights for granted. And that we all know about the predatory nature of social media and the likes and the self-consciousness. But what I'm more freaked out about is that there's an illusion that you're safe because you have a phone. Like people are not being trained to actually, like when I was a young girl walking alone at night. Yeah, you were. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, aware. It's like the, and so they don't even have, they're not even being trained to use their 360 like protection, like it's not only more dangerous because you could be, have a predator in your bedroom alone with your parents and the other. Or driving you home in an Uber, that happens all the time. I just cannot believe that it is more dangerous and the sense of protection is being lost. So I don't know, I feel like as just like a woman out there I've gotta go out not to just like only reframe the fact that Courtney was burned at the stake and hold legacy is in the gutter and it shouldn't be, but also to just talk to young women today about how they move through the world. Right. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I read this that you said something to the fact that you wanted this to be a full-throated defense of Courtney Love and as you know, I'm a Courtney Love truther. I will, to anyone who will listen, I'm like, I don't think you understand that you'll never meet a more intelligent person as long as you live like. Nor a more punk power person. Right, right. Not male or female. Oh, I think you, in the book you refer to as like something about her like dignity and her like morality. Noble. And she's extremely noble, you know? Like, and always there's a clip circulating out. I think I saw she actually posted it as well. Oh yeah. She's always. Predicting fascism. Predicting from corporate. The future. Always. No, from monopolies digging up. And no one listens. And then 10 years later they're like, oh, Courtney Love said that. And they're like, yeah, Courtney Love said that. So that I think is great. I was curious, like you had a firsthand view, you're what, about 22, 23 years old, you had a firsthand view of how Courtney Love's fame was intertwined with how she was treated, you know? The more famous she got, the worse, I think people treated her and the media was horrible. Did that affect your personal relationship with fame and your interest in having it or not having it? Well, I never wanted it to begin with. So I was horrified from the moment I stepped into whole. It's like why I said no, is I didn't, I want a life as an artist. I want a life of integrity. I'm not in it for fame, fortune, anything. So when I reluctantly joined whole, I was doing it for women's progress and for women's right to be at the table and be part of rock history. I never did it for fame. I reluctantly dealt with the fact that she grew more famous mixed with her own ambition because she also is unapologetic of her power. Her plan was always more power to have more of a platform. And I'm, that's just not who I am, but we were a good counterbalance because that was not my style of change, but I also benefited from her brave, and so I get to put this book out because I was along side for the ride, but I was pretty much appalled by the whole thing, and she would put herself out there and such a, I mean, she actually like sent me a note this week, it's so sweet. We're closer than we've ever been. We were close then, but when I left the band, we lost touch for about a decade, but she sent me the sweetest, congratulations. You know, it sounds like the book is going great and I'm so happy you're out there. You're so diplomatic. I have to lock myself up or I'll be canceled every day. And it's just, we were just always the opposite of each other and I watched her just, she did what she had to do to survive and she needed quite literally to scream and stage I've and be received by the audience, received by the press, get clean, become a Hollywood movie. So all of that is what kept her alive. She just needed to move forward. It's so much more complicated than ambition. It's like, this is survival. This woman just needed to be alive and all of the superficial idiots are like, she's just ambitious and wants to be famous or just looking for attention. Yeah, have you ever thought about why? Why she might, right. Why would this woman need to have attention? And that's why I was always of a defender too, but I like that I now have a quarter century and my own understanding of my very private perspective to the, you know, six feet to the right of her every night and seeing the shotgun shells being thrown at her, seeing the mixed bag of the audience that are some desperate teens who lovers, some haters, some just like what we received from the audience and from the press and from the industry taught me everything about humanity. And she was the avatar of the wild Medusa woman and I learned so much by being next to her and I now have the privileged quarter century perspective where I feel like I actually, I need to join this conversation until anyone who wants to think about the arc of women and the demonization of women, I have a valuable opinion that I want and she was the one who sacrificed herself and we all witnessed it. And benefit, I mean, I, Yes. I'm benefited. I'm benefited. My arm is up because I've cried on this podcast talking about it before I was 12 years old and found lived through this CD in a trash can and it changed my whole life. Oh, amazing. And I've said it. I've heard that, yeah. It was obviously because of the music, but also because I never, I had never seen that it was possible to be a pop, what Courtney was was a pop star really, by that point, but she was messy and chaotic and imperfect and that had not been presented to me as a possibility of a way to be a woman. And it made me who had messy and complicated and angry feelings feel like, oh, it's okay. You know, like there's a path for, like you can also be glamorous. Absolutely. And you know, like all these things can exist in one package. So. You know, we were pushing, we were pushing, pushing it forward, pushing what women can be, which we were only at that point, like 50 years or 60 years into the rights to vote, the right to have our own credit cards. You know, it's so new, this movement of women having autonomy over their own anything. There's still like all biology of our sexual experiences. Everything's been written by men, for men with no understanding of women. We are still. They just invented perimenopause two years ago. Exactly. I was like, oh, sorry, have we not known about this? Exactly. This existed forever and you guys just found out about this. And that's all because they want us to buy the drugs. It's all just pharmaceutical. They want us to buy gummies for our hair growth. And I'm like, no, but can I have some real minutes? You guys don't know any science? Oh, well, my God. Anyway, yes, it's, we're so early in the game of what should be happening as women running the world, you know? It frustrates me to know, because I'm like, it shouldn't be, like it shouldn't even have to be a feminist act to exist and to be who you are. And it's such a litmus test for me, especially with men, the way they speak about Courtney Love. Like it's an immediate tell for me. I know what kind of man you are, you know? And even like men who I think, think they've interrogated their own misogyny, think it's okay to be misogynistic against Courtney Love. And they don't really understand that that's what's going on there, you know? No, I like it when I meet men, and it's not that often, but younger ones I'm now seeing have said, I've heard it a couple of times in the last couple of years, oh, Hole was the better band. Whoa. That's a big deal when a man says that. Yeah. About, you know, and it's funny. Good for them. Yeah, and then the opposite ones were like, well, I was a Nirvana fan, so I'm like, so what? So that means you couldn't be a Hole fan? You're not allowed, it's illegal? It's just like, it's such a, it's so telling, yes. Okay, well, it's just to take it back to like a slightly different subject. So you talked about just now, like you're not interested in fame. I wonder though, does being seen have value for you? Yes, absolutely. Yes, which is definitely where I'm at at this moment. And the joy and profound gratitude I have that I released a book a week ago, and I have been received obviously here, but Drew Barrymore's show, my book events have been selling out and second nights are added. And that feels incredible, not just because I worked really hard and I want to spread the message of what I'm trying to, you know, lift the hood on. But it is that I stepped away from public eye for a long time for a reason, to become a mother, but also to experience life outside of what had been 17 years of touring and playing on stages as a performer, but also as a young girl, I grew up in the shadow of my politician father. I grew up in the spotlight of a small city and I needed to just inner world. And I did that and I learned a lot, obviously, becoming a mother, biggest transformation a person can ever experience. But there was a missing part of what I'd always had, which is this dialogue with the outside world, you know? So some people maybe are satisfied to be seen by their parents or their husband and wife, their partner. There's something in my like lifetime, however I came into this lifetime, and the destiny I have with Courtney and Billy and whatever my father's destiny was of being in the public eye that I do actually, it's not fame, it is a recognition in this sort of public private conversation between my inner world and the big outer world of people who need art and archetypes to understand themselves. I am someone who found myself through Robert Smith and Morrissey and I found myself through Botticelli's birth of Venus and art. I needed, that's how I got, that's how I developed. And I like participating in being that archetype for a young person who is looking for themselves. So I stepped back to become a mother to make sure I provided my daughter with a real human mother, but I'm excited for her to go out now, she's 14 to find herself and I'm excited to come back out and talk to anyone who needs to hear from a weird archetype avatar, the bass player who disappeared, the redhead, the Canadian, whoever I am, if I can help somebody find their way, like so many people did for me in the public and art world. So it's not obviously fame, it's being seen in a strange like other dimension, you find yourself in other people, just like everyone says, like a marriage or a close close relationship, you are a mirror to each other, but there's something about strangers and public performers that are mirrors to each other. We need someone or something to project onto, yeah to grow, to learn about ourselves. And I do think it's really interesting because in your book, we learn a lot about you, but it's not the common archetype you learn about, because like most people would learn about a Courtney or a Billy, right? It's the front person that you kind of learn about. And I thought it was, it was really interesting to read about the bass, literally, I mean, like being like, I played bass for two seconds in a band, I'm terrible at it, and it was literally only because like my friend was like, you look cool, I want you to be in my band. And I was like, I would love to be in a band, I have zero musical talent. He was like, you couldn't do the bass. And I was like, Sid Vicious talking like unplug it. But I do feel like someone, I think someone said it to you in the book, I can't remember who it was, but that like nobody's first choice is the bass. But that was your first choice, because you knew yourself really well, even at that young of an age that you were like, I don't really want to be out front. I just want to be part of it. Exactly. I'm a team player, I'm a collaborator. I wanted to join my generation's movement, and I was obviously in love with music, and I had been lucky to grow up on my mother's record collection and went to art school as a kid. So I was already in like the magic of music and art, and I wanted, and I could feel something bubbling in my generation. And when I got to see Hole and the pumpkins and Sonic Youth and everyone in like 90, 91, I felt I could feel the wave. Anyone that was there just knew, whoa, and I wanted to catch it. So I had to pick the most subtle position on the stage to do it. And I get crap for this all the time, but the bass is the easier entry. It's easier to fake it. And people have, yeah, I mean like, drumming is like a sport. Lead singer, you can't be shy. You gotta have something to say. You have to be able to scream, shredding guitar players. So it was like an easy way for me to also go from like A to Z. I went from A to Z. I had a bass for a year, and then I joined Hole. But I think that does diminish your musical talent because you obviously were a really good bass player. I mean, I clearly have a natural feel for it, and recently Billy actually broke it down on his podcast. It was the first time I've ever been told by my musical mentor what my feel is as a bass player. Yeah, I watched that. He was thinking about how you're more aggressive than all the other. Yeah, I got my head of the beat. I was like, like John Bonham. And John Paul Jones, it's like a particular thing where some bass is laid back, some bass is on, and I guess mine is ahead. And there is like a push, a pulse or something. And that just, I do believe comes innately. Like bass is you either feel it or you don't. And I definitely felt it. But I am, and which is how I got in so quick to bands. Yeah. So cool. Do you think it's too late for me to be in a band? No. Okay, great. Definitely not. I'm pulling people. Once again, Fender, corporate. No, it's cool. If you're listening, you wanna send me a guitar? Oh my goodness. I'm right here. You can be part of the feminist movement. Cam Gordon has an album in her 70s. I mean, no. She did start a little earlier than me, but you know what, Fender? Hear me out. We can do some sort of perimenopause gummies and guitar package. The return of me. And I can be your spokesperson. I was a Fender. I've only ever played Fender and I was sponsored by them. We could start a band together. Melissa and I are available for the perimenopause special marketing project. I have sort of a personal question. Okay. For people that don't know, and again, you're gonna read this book because it's great, but you come from two parents. Like you said they were counterculture, they were also both writers and artists and your father was this big personality, that you know, activists, it's like really interesting people, but you didn't have a stable home life. They were not really together when you were growing up, I think just one year, I guess, right? Yeah. You lived in some caravanning situations with your mother. You called your father by his first name and hung out with him at the bar. Yeah. All amazing. But I was, I'm just, I'm so not like this, like the self-possession that you seem to have at such a young age to be like, I don't wanna be in a home, that seems too much for me or like, I'm not gonna do those drugs. Me, it was like, do I wanna do drugs? Yes, whatever. It was like, whatever everyone else was. I was just kind of like down to clown, not even because I wanted to, but more because I didn't know myself well enough to know I didn't want to. I guess the question is, this is a long way of asking, how did you develop that given that you, it's not that you came maybe from so much stability? Well, I definitely credit, so I am someone, which you can tell my book, I reflect constantly. One of the things I've always reflected on is innate versus nurture. What are you born with and what is your environment doing? So I believe very much so that you're born with a certain temperament. Temperament, exactly. You come to this earth with a, my daughter goes to Waldorf school and they basically, they can read even in a kindergarten child, a temperament. Totally. Are you sound green? I am definitely a melancholic reflective and I always have been. And I've been sort of daydreaming into the, infinity universe for as long as I can remember about what is the meaning of life. So I've just always been like that. So I think the combination of what you come into this world with and then I fully credit my parents, talk about self-possession, my parents, I mean, they just, they knew who they were from some, they did not, they broke away from where they came from, you know, son of immigrants, daughter of like super suburban American milk toast. Like they went like charging far and wide away from what they came from. So for me, it is a combination of however I came into this, which I think is more of a stargazing tripping out person. And then they were these like super, they modeled for years. They modeled just, I was in awe of both my parents for as long as I can remember of how clear it was that they were gonna work for themselves. They're gonna be freelancers. They're gonna do only things that they believed in and work their asses off to make the outside world what they wanted to be. Fight for civil rights or for, they were just so clearly who they were. So for me, the modeling of my parents who just like knew, and it's also, I credit a lot, they're maybe even healthy neglect raising of me, which was really like, you tell us Melissa, what do you want? Like I like photography. Oh, borrow my camera. I like music, please buy me a bass. And they didn't, I didn't come from money, it came from nothing, I would listen when I had an inkling of who I am and they empowered me to believe that my instincts were right, but mainly I saw that their instincts made them happy and fulfilled. They like thrived as people. They weren't like sitting around depressed, smoking pot watching TV. No, it doesn't sound like it. I'm really into the theory that your soul like chooses your parents based on like the growth that it wants to experience in this life. But I suggest in the book and at one point my mother thought that seemed pretentious. I was like, I don't know, I'm just telling you what I, what I feel. Before I even, that's like a belief that I hold. I feel that that's everyone's thing, you know? And so like as much as we have to work through certain things, core wounding or whatever, it's that's the arc of your life. And it's believing in the reason you're here and having like a bigger than you, bigger than this lifetime belief system that you dropped down at this time for a reason and that these are the lessons you are meant to learn. And I mean, I was a one night stand, my mother hates that I start the book with that. She's like, well, we were together a couple of times when I get three times. Like just, she was a promiscuous, wild, independent woman who wanted to have a daughter alone. Who only had sex with bachelors so that she could be a single mother. That was her plan. I thought I was knowing what you want, you know? Yeah, that was pretty radical in the 70s. So, and I'm proud of that. Like I'm proud of her that she knew to do that. That's, you know, but so that's how chants my arrival was. You know, I'm not a product of like people who got married and had sex hundreds of times and like fell in love. Like no, I would just came for that one moment for these two radical weirdos to have me. So, yeah. Do you feel that you were able to distill like your core wound by the end of writing this book? Oh my God. Talk about therapy times 10,000 years. I am the most light and healed because of this process. I think there's still a big journey up ahead right now that the book is out and I think the healing will take on a new, but phase one of mega healing has happened with me alone in this manuscript for the last few years. So much of the difficult things in this book that I unpacked for myself and for anyone who's ever dealt with addiction or death. It's a real Alanon vibe. Yes, yes. So, but I, yes, I couldn't recommend it enough to anyone. Even if you don't publish it, just write your memoir. If you've got a crap to deal with, write it. It's yeah, it is like self therapy or self soothing, I guess. You wrote something in the book that I was like really the kind of held onto because I thought it was so interesting that you noticed that while you were playing, I think you were maybe still playing bass and hole, I'm not sure, but that you felt that this was like being in a loveless relationship, being making art for hire basically, even though you loved it for like a multitude of other reasons, you realized that you needed to be creative yourself on the side to have a balance. Yeah, yeah, like the equivalent of intimacy with sex. Right. Of like just sex without intimacy or love without sex. Yes, it was like a lacking, yeah, yeah, I had to, and again, that's probably where I'm unpacking this bass player perspective in the shadow of the big front people more than most memoirs go into. Cause yeah, it's a very kind of like, that's a very subtle, I'm glad you picked up on it, because when I was writing, that was part of my reflection of like why I felt so alone in that band and why I felt so, and why when I left the band, Courtney accused me of like withholding my talent when, and she published in the book, the letter to her reaction to my departure, departure of the band. Right, she's a brilliant writer. Yeah, incredible, incredible. I'm happy that she gets to have her own words in my book, she gets to say, but when I reread that letter and her accusing that I didn't give all of myself to the band, it actually kind of stimulated these kinds of reflections of did I withhold? I wonder, just, oh, well yes, actually, cause I didn't feel safe and I didn't feel seen and I didn't feel all of these things. So I was able to in the book, go that deep into this. And I was like, I mean, I was, now everybody's like, trauma bonding, new age, Instagram therapy. I have been living that in my mind since the day I was born. You know, it's kind of cool that everybody is now reflecting on that. Sure, or not, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or they could tone it down a bit. It's like, not everyone's a narcissist, that's not possible, maybe you're the narcissist if everyone in your life is a narcissist. But in the 90s, people were not thinking like that. I was kind of like the only one in the band like, is this gonna hurt people's feelings? Is this, you know, why are they trying to kill themselves? This is like a very complicated situation to be in. So yeah, I feel like maybe now is my time, like people maybe relate to this kind of processing. The world was very black and white back then. And people were much less compassionate for, Sure. Trouble, difficult people like a Courtney, but also much less sensitive to a sensitive person like me, who was just trying to like take care of herself. That's all I was trying to do is protect myself from a big bad world. Even though of course on the lucky one, we don't have bombs over our heads. I had roof over my head and all that, but within like going out on the road in a giant rock band alone at 22 is not like a safe space. Maybe that's what we traded. Maybe we traded the analog beauty stuff for people being more therapist and more accepting of addiction. Oh no, no, no, I think, no. I wonder if that was sort of like the Faustian bargain that had to be made, you know? I believe that yes, in fact, it is a spiritual growth that is happening while the earthly world gets worse. I definitely see that in my like long game, thousand year vision of what's happening. This destruction that is happening to our planet earth with the fossil fuel addiction and then the mining of our souls through the algorithm addictions. There's really bad non-sustainable things happening there, but I do ultimately believe in the spirit of existence. And I think that there is progress happening on other planes, which is more of an awareness of what is life beyond here. That's like exciting. And organized religion have had some bad raps lately. So we're not gonna like all like go running to the church. It's really funny that you say that, but that's all, I always do say that because I just, I talk about God on here a lot and some people really don't like that. And I'm always like, I know that reputation. But like let's just separate that out of the contacts. And shout out to the clergy members who listen to bands playing, I love you guys. Aw, I mean the higher power, there is and there better be belief in it. I believe in it. It's a matter of I talk a lot on the book about how I found my own way to the higher power of self, of beyond self of the universe. And that my parents who were really like anti-religion, understandably, because they were from another generation that were good and they were progressive people who wanted to live in like the power of political action here and now, intellectuals. But I was lacking, I was starving, which is how I fell in love with music. I was starving for a spiritual, all songs are about God. Absolutely, so bad rap, God, because it is a higher universal power that is there that I'm very clear about in the book that I followed and listened to. And it is potentially where we could all go a little deeper now while we watch total criminals take over the earthly plane. The illegal wars. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it is. It's really cool. Yeah, there's actually, I'm not gonna say what it is because I want you guys to read the book. There's an incredible exchange between you and Dave Navarro in the book, of kind of about this, that like pretty much distills down like the difference between addicts and non addicts. It's so good. And you're the first person who's brought up that chapter, Dance with Death in my end of all. I've done about 80 interviews in the last six weeks. You're the first person, like I was like waiting to get on over. It's like an LA addict thing, but you picked up on it like that. Oh, it was just like a perfect distillation of exactly like, you don't need any more information into like what makes, and very self aware of him to say it to you like that. That's why I wanted to honor him in the book is he taught me something, even though I'm not in touch with him, I'm in meaning to say, hi Dave Navarro, you're in my book. I love to live Moss, Dave Navarro, famously, he lived Moss. Yeah, Dave Navarro was a talk about spokesperson. Interesting, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Do I miss that? But he taught me something when I was lost in the maze of all these addicts about it. So we were talking about being seen, and I was going to be like, oh, is this like the biggest and scariest being seen so far? But then I was like, well, what about when you did your solo album? I think back to what you asked about like, how was I so self assured that I don't want to join whole? I do have some, I guess it's kind of my superpower that I'm not too concerned about what people think. I mean, it's not that I don't care, I do, I care about people. It's more that I'm going to have to do what I have to do, and that's how I feel about it. I grant that to other people too. Courtney's got to do what she's got to do. Everyone's got to do what they've got to do, to get where they need to get in themselves. So I'm not, so yes, in some ways, horrific. Like I cannot believe that my first orgasm is in this book. Like what am I doing? You couldn't pull that information out of me with a gun to my head, I'm so sorry. So I wanted to know that I wrote it without ever thinking about that it was going to go out into the outside world. I wrote it because I needed to write it, I needed to write it. But you could have edited that out. Well, my husband actually wanted me to, but I was like, no, this is about women and like this whole, the fact that the mystery of sex and orgasms isn't even like properly talked about. So there's a lot of things that could have been edited that I didn't, but I ultimately decided to choose my most personal truths to put forward for better or for worse. And it was because I wanted honest, but then it wasn't until I read the audio book that I actually had a shutter of terror of, what have I just done? I hadn't even, it's almost like maybe my superpowers, I don't think about it. Until it's too late. Until it's too late, truly. Like I'm walking on stage and trying to 65,000 people. Oh, 20 years later it occurred to me that could have been scary. Yeah. I don't think about it. Your story really reminds me of a thing I like to call going troll a law mode, where you're just like, okay, I guess I'll join a whole fine. You called so many times and then you're like, now I'm in hole. Okay. Exactly. Oh, okay, I'm gonna go here. We're going to be a mix. This is associated, I don't know what it is, but it's definitely the way I do it. And this is the way I've done this. And it wasn't until I walked out of the audio booth that I thought, oh God, there is gonna be some uncomfortable moments that I'm about to walk into. But so far I've been six weeks into this chatty chat and I'm on this book tour. And because I can stand behind that all of this is my version of the story. There's not much that, you know, I don't wanna hurt people and I don't think I do. I did check in. People trust me, like the main people in the book, you know that, but I don't know. I'm a diplomatic person, so I don't think I'm like- Canadian? Exactly. So Canadian. So yeah, I bet it is bizarre that I, and in fact, my family, I only really have like my mother and my half brother and they over the holidays when they, you know, thought like, oh, she's really doing this. And they had a conversation that my mother shared, like, I guess this is the way Melissa needs to deal with her stuff like in public. I was like, that is weird. But that's back to this, like I was so moved by heroes of the 80s of music and art history heroes. And I benefited so much from other people putting their hearts out there. And that's really impacted for all of us, for sure. Seriously. Morrissey said things that I would never have said publicly as well. No, help. It's just, unfortunately. But I just, I participate in that strange dialogue of put yourself out there publicly and help somebody like it helped me. I think it can be really cleansing. Like I have a weird practice lately. Thanks to a psychic, we'll have to get into it. Shout out Eric if you're listening. Where I'm like, I actually like need to post more of myself on the internet and like a really, but in a way that I'm like, I don't care. Because it's like, it was a lifelong practice for me to not care what people think of me. Having a podcast will really help you because people will be like, your voice is so annoying. And you're like, oh my God, who are you? Why are you knocking out? I don't even know, don't listen then. It's just like abroad. And then you just like go through like the galaxy brain levels of, yeah. And I wonder if it's the same psychic Eric that I have spoken to. New York based channeler. Yes. Oh, hi Eric. I don't think Eric listens to this podcast. But maybe our guides who are different are circling. Just know I'm doing a big lesson. Yeah, interesting. So, but I also, in the realm of the internet, not giving a crap, like I had to start using Instagram to prep this book. And I just, I'm like, hello internet. This is not natural for me, but I want to connect with you. So it's also in that mode, I just go into like, I want to find these people and I want these people to find me. So I will do, I will use this channel. Yeah. And also like being as my favorite quote, which I haven't said lately is to be cringes, to be free. You know? Yeah. Like whatever you feel embarrassed to do is probably your like highest and truest self and you're feel vulnerable. That's what cringes vulnerability. Vulnerable is good. I mean, I'm like, and it's like a lifelong journey into vulnerability. I'm like, this morning was crying my ass off. I have not like, it's not about the book. It's just like, oh, this book is helping me identify that the other kernel of vulnerability that I'm always going to be dealing with. You know, we can only, it's just, it is a lifelong journey and you better make the most out of it. You gotta maximize, you gotta take risks, put yourself out there, tell people you love them. Got a vulnerability max babe. Yes. Seriously. My therapist always says that vulnerability is the currency that you use to buy intimacy, which I think is very on point, but it's also even extends to the currents you use to buy intimacy with yourself. Yeah, interesting. I haven't heard that line. Because how can you have intimacy with another person if you're not vulnerable to them? Yeah. It's not possible, right? I know, I mean, exactly. But also with yourself. Like if you're going to be with yourself, you have to be able to not live a version of yourself that isn't actually you because you're trying to please some audience. Yes, I am currently vulnerable. Hello, how are you? I'm actually dying to know your human design because there's a human design that has to be invited to do stuff. Do you know which one that is? Interesting. I wonder if that's the one you are. I don't remember, I mean, I've had it done on my chart before and I have it somewhere in a screenshot. That is interesting. Just because like waiting. Because I don't know that particular has to be invited, but someone who's, I guess it's a Jewish mythology thing, knock three times or ask three times. Well, you didn't need to become Jewish, you have to ask three times. Right. That's a big thing. Well, someone said they noticed in my, I had to be asked three times to join whole. I wonder if you are this human design. Cause I just, I can't remember the one cause I'm not that one. I'm like, absolutely not that one. I'm like, hi, I'm here. Right. But it's one that's like life path is dictated by people in half-time, like a vampire. You have to be invited in all the time. Well, it's like the right one in that amazing film and that interesting because yes, this is a reoccurring theme. And it's great. The right people seem to come and invite you at the right time. It works out beautifully. Yeah, because that's what's cool about the fable fairy tale side of my book is that I never went to try to do any of this. They found me. And that is also what makes me have the luxury to feel destined. Like they found me. I didn't ask. They didn't tell me. Yeah, you're probably right. Well, who knows? We'll never know. Until we Google it later. This book is such a celebration of how, I don't know how to say it without sounding corny, but like, I am a hippie corny person. Yeah, just like how soulful it is how much import there is to friction. Authenticity or analog things require friction, right? That's part of what makes them, I think, valuable. Like you spoke about a little bit earlier in finding music. I'm really obsessed with this idea now that we lack friction in our society. Ease and ridiculous convenience of everything. And it's like a good example that I can't stop bringing up because I don't understand it is that these songs go viral on TikTok and it'll be like a pavement song or whatever. And these 20 year old kids or 18 year old kids will be like, I love harness your hopes. And you'll be like, amazing. And then they never listen to one other pavement song in their life. They don't find a song that they love and it doesn't inspire them to dig deeper. Whereas like the minute I heard, I mean, I remember, shout out one more time to my hero, Gina Arnold, who wrote a book called Root 666 on the road to Nirvana. I was obsessed with Nirvana, like as 11 year olds in 1990, whatever were, bought this book and she had broken down all the bands and movements that led up to allowing Nirvana to break through. Oh, cool, I can't believe I haven't read that. It's amazing, it's out of print now, but you can get the copies, it's wonderful. And it's from a, I never knew you could be a woman and talk about things, talk about rock music from a personal lens. Like she basically made this possible, but she'd write her off the replacement, she wrote about Fugazi and I would take my little allowance money to the warehouse music and buy those records because friction, like I dug, I wanted to find it. And it meant so much to me. And now I'm just like, so sorry, there is a question in here. My question is, do you feel that we can regain any of what we've lost? Of course, but it's a matter, you have to be conscious and self-aware of how you are living. And by reading this book and understanding how all these chance wild things happen to me, the ease of the phone and the connectivity of just through here is not gonna get you to that magic carpet ride. Yes, I think that people can make conscious decisions on how to like follow an analog gut and not follow the algorithm. So I think that people just, but obviously the concern is if people are like raised with the dependency on the machine, it's hard to, but I think I believe the analog is so deep, deep, deep within for thousands and thousands of years, that yeah, you know, there, and there's a rise of like awareness of it and there's like, hopefully some crooks will go to prison for destroying kids' lives with this. But yeah, I think that what's funny is I thought you were gonna go somewhere else with the friction which is the astrology parallels I describe again, because we went into psychic things and I'm not, don't wanna alienate the non astrology, non astrology people out there. Every episode of this podcast, like they're here for the round. But what sign are you? I'm a Taurus. Oh, cool. Double Taurus, actually. Yeah, love. But I'm gonna read you this simple line, I'm a Pisces, Kurt Cobain was a Pisces, Billy Corgan and I share the same birthday. And later I would learn that Pisces represents the end of the life cycle, connecting the material world to the afterlife and divine. The sign is symbolized by two fish tied to each other's tail, one swimming upstream and the other one swimming downstream. This duality would come to define me even more than the narratives and details of my mortal life. I have always been torn between the mortal and ethereal sides of myself. How to live on both sides. This inner conflict has always defined me and I was beginning to believe it defined my generation. That's what I thought you meant by the conflict because it was the before and after the way we lived. That our earthly way of living pre-digital takeover and then the crossover and our generation being the ones who have lived it half and half, we are embodying two ways of living. And I see that as a very similar thing that I just naturally resonate with is like, how do you try to do both and how do you find peace between? But that that tension is what made our youth movement exciting and is what makes me both a seeker and a futurist and a past like nostalgia person. Like I have high hopes of where we can go, but I also really love where we were. And I rely on that duality to give me good perspective of where we are right now. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that it's all pendulum stuff. You know, like we're gonna, you already see it happening like with the rise in people getting those bricks for their phones and these apps. The light phones and the people that live outside. So you can tell people are hungry for freedom from. The way they're living. And so I'm interested to see what's gonna happen. And just, I guess I'm a little sad at like the casualties along the way, but. Tragic. Yeah, but. Not to mention the casualties of kids who got drugs on Snapchat that died. Like all, I mean, you know, the combination of tech and this terrible drug thing is like a real deal. It's crazy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's gonna be interesting to see now what also what happens with AI because I have an interesting take on AI that I don't think a lot of people like, but I kind of feel like the train has left the station and it's gonna be like if you were in 1994 being like, I won't use, I will just not be using email. I'll see you at the post office. Okay, that's like not, you know, but I think like with everything else, it's a good, I think where we always go wrong is we stick our head in the sand. Yeah. And it's like, actually what you have to do is be rigorous. Like you have to rigorously check in with yourself and what are your motivations? What are you doing? Are you gonna use AI? To what end? Like there's that crazy study that they did that people that used AI for five days, these study subjects had diminished creativity for a creative task specifically, had diminished creativity for months afterwards. It's incredibly damaging in that way. So again, if you're gonna use it that way, do whatever you want, right? Social media just like normal, not even AI is diminishing people's ability to function. To focus, exactly. Like brains are being scanned and seeing like. Be aware, know what you're doing and be disciplined and rigorous with yourself. But I do think it's like opting out is almost not having to self-examine. And it's better always. I agree. And whatever we can self-examine up against something, it's better. Everything in moderation. Yeah. Absolutely, function within what the current society is. Adapt. Exactly. We're not like we go be a Luddite and live in off the grid or whatever. You can if you want. I support that and I have friends. Sounds cool to be honest. I would love to grow my own food or whatever. Yeah, and I have friends that do that and I'm all for it. And I like that back to the tension. I like both. I want to be adaptable and be able to see the beauty in both sides. And I am also dual citizen of Canadian and American heritage. So I am both. It's always the two fish. Yes, exactly. Melissa Aftermar, this was so wonderful. Thank you for coming on the pod and talking about your book and all the cool things that you experienced is a big honor for me. Yeah, I'll be back one day. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplain. Arjina Dalvak and me, Yossi Salik. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cosentino and Jennifer Klavan and graciously recorded by Carlos Del Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert and also Sean Fennesey and the Goop Kitchen. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. I would support there being more Dunkin's in the Los Angeles region. Do you think there's like a Starbucks lobby? Thoughtwa? Yeah, that's like, we won't allow it because we know we'll lose business. Probably.