‘Beef’ Season 2 With Creator Lee Sung Jin. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 3 and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3 Teaser.

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now! Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me in the studio, a man who funnily enough moonlights as a little John impersonator who does James Brown songs. It's really true. At weddings, Sandy Greenwald. Oh, you got quiet. Well, that was a mouthful. Andy, you handled it well. I thought you were going to do a little John voice. It's great to see you, man. We're talking about Euphoria episode three today. We're also talking about beef season two again because we have Sunny Lee coming in to talk to us about the show that he created in the second season and a little bit about X-Men, which he's also co-writing. I thought that was exciting. And we're very excited to hear about that. First, let me just say, the watch at Spotify.com. Feel free to continue to send us. Ask us anything emails or emails that are more pertinent to this podcast. This podcast. The watch pod underscored Instagram. You can watch us on ringer-tv on YouTube and you can watch us on Spotify where you can also listen to us as well as many other platforms that carry this podcast. HBC, Helena Baum Carter leaves the white lotus. Disappointing. By mutual consent. Sounds like mutual consent, mutual decision. It sounds like it wasn't working, which has happened before on the show, I believe. And that Mike White has an exacting vision for how he wants these parts to be played and how he wants these parts to be and that she was no longer the right fit. So we don't know if it was a performance thing or if it was a reconsideration of the whole character. I doubt it was like, oh, it turns out Helena Baum Carter can't read. You know what I mean? I'm sure she's like an accomplished actress for three, four decades at this point. I like that he said, I'm sure she's an accomplished actress. Like, I don't know. I never saw a room with a view. The only thing I was going to say is this is the downside to the fantasy casting league that kind of operates around white lotus. Is there so much attention paid to it that I could imagine like pretty big shows getting away with like, we tried this, it didn't work out like it's kind of swept under the rug. Constantly. And that's better for everyone. Yeah, but this was like HBIT release a statement, you know? And I think it's like, we've talked before about how sometimes it'll be like so and so has joined the cast of this justified spinoff. And I'm like, this is this has been shot. That's often the case. Yeah, but this is more like, you know, we're there's speculation, there's rumors, there's who would you like to see at the white lotus next season and live by the sword, die by the sword, I guess. Eric Stoltz still answers questions about the two weeks he spent filming as Marty McFly. That's just from you though. You emailing him, ask him anything questions. The restraining order's language was big. So DMs are fine as far as I can tell. More HBO news to hit, which is the hot D season three teaser dropped. And as Kai rightly pointed out, we're losing touch with the old ways. A teaser should not be three minutes long. Yeah, this is a trailer. Yes. I believe it's called the teaser on YouTube though, correct? Yeah. But like, what are they going to say in the trailer that like, some of these dragons got? No, it's supposed to be 57 seconds and it's supposed to be like, like rhythmic and just like pictures of the dragons and shit. It's not supposed to be like, all big fight happen. Just picture you just kind of vibing out. Like McConaughey. Yeah. The image of a dragon, the image of another dragon. We should do it. We should do our own teaser that's cut to McConaughey's, you know, beating the chest song. Don't threaten Kai with a good time. He's already Googling it. Want to go viral? Yes. Follow me, brother. I am excited because I feel like they have no more room to delay and must get to the fighting on this show. And you know, James Norton being added to the cast is exciting. I'm a big fan of his. Yeah, you've been supporting him for a while. I'm a fan of Fear for Life. What about you? You're feeling a little bit more upbeat about how this is happening? Yeah, I mean, I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, this looks cool and propulsive and like we're finally getting the action scenes that we were promised and the story is going to get on with it and really have some consequences and teeth. On the other hand, I kind of want to know what that wormwood tree is thinking. You know what I mean? Wormwood, weirwood. What is it? I don't remember anymore. It's like that tree spent a season having Matt Smith talk to it. And I kind of want to know what the tree's whole thing is. Like one episode, like bottle episode of interiority. Do you think the tree is kind of like Dr. Melfi of House of the Dragon? Yeah, and then we get to see the tree go home and talk to another tree played by Peter Bogdanovic, but like, you know, done tastefully with AI. Yeah. This is why they can't handle me in that room. I was across the studio a lot from the show and again, Eric Stoltz's lawyers arrived and were like, you're also not allowed to express. Were you outside of the House of the Dragon lot with the boombox? Justice for the tree. Yeah, I'm excited. This is funnily enough the show that I chose to spoil for myself. So I extensively read about this era in Targaryen history. Extensively read? On Wikipedia. I didn't quite get because I knew that this one did not have that classic George prose. You know, it was more of a... Just picture it looks the way like my old New York therapist sat in an Eames chair and would have a thousand page book about the 97th Congress. And be like, aha, well, this is when lawmaking really changed. That's you with this. With this. But I am excited to see how they execute it, you know, and I don't think that they'll be deviating from canon. That's exciting. I'm curious to see whether or not there is any relationship creatively. I doubt it because I think that these were being shot relatively parallel to one another. Between seven kingdoms, lessons learned being like, oh, we can't have a little bit of a laugh here and there. I bet no. I bet a hard no. But the best case scenario for this, I think is that they... We thought that coming out of the original Game of Thrones series that the sort of slower pace and the more thoughtful approach that HBO was taking towards spin-offs was going to equate with entertainment that was like just knew what it was doing. Act like you've been here before. And I think that the House of Dragon, Genesis was a little bit bumpier and it wasn't a one to one translation. And out of the seven kingdoms is so specific and came out of the gate pretty much perfect. Fully formed. Fully formed. I think it took House of the Dragon time to get its bearings and then there were, you know, exterior circumstances that delayed it and COVID and all of that stuff and then the production delays, etc, etc. All this is to say, the best case version of it is them saying, we have our cute funny show. We have our Hellfire war show and we'll take it from there. The only other thing news wise that I wanted to mention was a trailer that dropped today, I believe, for the four all mankind spin-off show Star City. I want to preface this by saying I spoiled this one in that I've read very deeply on alternate histories of the space program in which Russia won. I think that if you had asked me 48 hours ago what my interest level in another take, but also an alternative read on history would be from the four all mankind world, I would be like, I'm good. I watched two seasons, maybe two and change for all mankind. I think if I had to summarize my exit strategy from that show, I just felt like it became very literal for me. I wasn't being really energized by either the writing or the direction. It's almost a show that I feel like, I wouldn't go so far as to say you could just read the recaps and get it, but I would say just the experiment kind of wore off for me. I am so excited for this after watching this trailer and that has not happened in a long time with a trailer for a television show where they essentially were like, you know what's good? Chernobyl. Well, the television show Chernobyl. The television show Chernobyl. We are at the 40th anniversary of the event. So this is starting in 1969, the space race, but this alternative space race of the four all mankind timeline told from the Russian, the Soviet perspective. In the style of Chernobyl, which means all the Russians are English people or, you know, the greater English area. Speaking English or fluent Russian? No, speaking English and it's a re-siphants plays, seemingly the main scientist. And it very, very, very much feels like it is a show that was like Chernobyl really worked again the show. Yes. And we want to. In retrospect, you're right. Right. And we want to continue that vibe a little bit. Now, I'm sure there are other influences because like it also feels a little of Thomas Alphardson's adaptation of Tinker Taylor and has some kind of tactile espionage to it. I'm very, very, very excited for this. I mean, the affection for Chernobyl extended to them saying that guy who plays the firefighter, Adam Negatis, let's get him in as the cosmonaut. Yeah. Visually, I mean, you're recognizing people from Chernobyl when you watch this. I was also very struck by the complete aesthetic commitment to the bit by the trailer. It is right up our alley. If it is Cold War espionage and then maybe also space, that's pretty cool. I was impressed by the specificity of vision because telling any streamer that we're going to do a spin off of your not flagship show and not even like attention grabbing number one hit show. But a respected performer for you. But this spin off is going to be by definition and by aesthetic. All those guys were on the wrong side. And less flashy is remarkable. So I respect that and I appreciate it. I will check it out. I'm a big Anna Maxwell Martin fan. She was in Line of Duty and the Sharon Horgenshaw motherland. She's fantastic in motherland. So she plays sort of like the head of security at the Star City base. So I'm looking forward to that. I would say the thing with For All Mankind, I'm trying to think if there's something I would put in its place, but I don't think I would. That's probably the number one show for me that I wish I could have found my way into because I think the creativity behind it and the way that it develops season to season from like one sliding doors moment of history and then just playing out that history is so imaginative and cool sounding. And I think I finished the first season and made it a little bit into the second and the execution of it and maybe it's changed or as it's continued to grow. I found it a hard show to watch. The episodes were 59, 61 minutes, 63 minutes and maybe that's what you were talking about with the literalism. Yeah, that's basically it. It felt like a slog honestly, especially knowing that I was so behind and this is before, you know, the euphoria rule went into effect where we actually don't have to watch all the shows. You could jump right into the last few episodes. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery as your back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's talk about euphoria. All right. Because we have a lovely chat with Sony coming up, obviously spoilers for last night's episode of euphoria. I didn't think that we were going to get the wedding so soon. I thought that we would maybe get more intercast interactions. So, I don't believe we actually got Rue Zendaya Sidney Sweeney two shot ever. With Jules and Maddie, whom she was sitting with, but she attended the wedding of Nate and Cassie and did not share the screen with either of them. Didn't seem like it. And I thought that this one was yet another shift stylistically, subtly. A lot of the Nate and Cassie stuff bordered on Ari Aster to me in a very cool way. But a little birdie on my shoulder tells me that maybe the joke's not so funny. Is the birdie still on your shoulder or you should check? Go ahead and sing. You want me to sing? Yeah. I like the episode, but I have a feeling maybe perhaps did not. I did not like this episode. I found it unpleasant to sit through. And I wonder in the spirit of generosity and in the spirit of celebrating a beautiful union between deserving, loving souls. I should probably ask you some questions and see the floor to a degree. And also maybe because this is where like my lock my lock box of euphoria memories may be a little out of reach for me because there's characters like any interactions between them. And I feel like I remember this, but go ahead. I also think at some point we should bring in Kaia just because it's been a long time since I've planned a wedding and I wonder if there were any like tips tips and tricks that you picked up while watching this. I, okay, I thought like the most six to my mind the most successful scene of the episode was the scene between Eric Dain's Cal character and Jules at the bar at the wedding. My enjoyment of that scene was foreshortened by the fact that I know nothing of their shared history. He's done some very bad things to Jules. That was clear. I enjoyed the scene because it carried a sense of history and gravity between characters that is the hallmark of continuing television dramatic series. And I thought again we talked about this last week that Eric Dain's performance, most likely his final performance, I thought they treated it all with a great deal of respect by making him just be drunk and not addressing the fact that his voice was affected by ALS, etc. So I thought that was a strong and interesting scene. So I'm bringing that up first because my engagement with that scene was severely limited by not knowing anything about the history. And I wonder how much of that you could just extrapolate to the episode as a whole because so much of the wedding to my mind either it stands on its own, which I don't think that it did. Then does it stand on its own as a culmination of two plus years of these characters interacting? And I don't know if it did primarily because the main character of the show didn't even talk to the people whose wedding she was attending. Yeah, it was a weird one. So I could go through the various like when the woman BB shows up, she was in an earlier iteration of the show. Obviously Maddie used to date Nate. Cassie essentially steals Nate from her. There's a whole thing over the first two seasons of these videos of Jules and Cal together that Cal had taken for obviously his own pleasure, but for like become like an element of blackmail out there. And Nate's involvement with that whole scenario is, I don't know if it's ambiguous, but it is like that scene between Nate and Jules and between Elordi and Hunter Schaefer. I thought it was quite good. I don't even know entirely what Nate was trying to communicate there where it was like you love who you love kind of thing. And what his feelings really are for Jules at the end of the day. Regardless of that, it seemed like if you were doing the parasocial like I'm speculating about like who was on set for what days kind of thing. This is the kind of thing that like is why I can't watch the morning show anymore sometimes because it's like I can't watch people do one like clearly not be in the same room together when they're shooting a scene or filmmaking that is chosen to create that illusion for whatever reason. So yeah, it did really feel like Zendaya did a day of shooting there, but then like they were like now let's put her back in the Alamo, Lori. Which remains crime saga. The much more compelling, much more electric storyline of the show. I think that the argument the show has been making for style over substance, which again, that's how I'm choosing to engage with it. There may be more substance awaiting me if I had watched the previous season, which I did not. So I think that that gambit works more successfully when the characters had been siloed into their particular aesthetic genre pieces. So Cassie and Nate making each other crazy inside of this scarface yellow suburban nightmare world. That kind of worked for me. The wedding felt like a set piece in search of a reason to exist. All of the, and maybe, so again, maybe aesthetically this is, you tell me, is this what euphoria has always been because it seemed like a chance for all of the cast members to dress in wild ways that maybe communicated some interior, interiority through their clothing and how they chose to approach things. So I picked up on the Maddie relationship with Nate because of the way it kept cutting to her eyes as this was going on. But I did not, in the course of the celebration, feel much, feel really any kind of character grounding to have empathy for them while it was taking place. It was like, here's an opportunity to maybe let Cassie experience a swing of emotions or to, I think the negative vision of it is just sort of punish the actor more because I don't really see what, I didn't really see how the character was being served or the actor is being served, I don't know what she had to do during this wedding set pieces while everyone around her is threatening or yelling about what's going on. It's interesting because we were talking last week, I think, a little bit about how the Cassie and Nate thing seems to be happening on a different television show. And then when you make that the sort of main arena, it almost muted what the Alexis Demi character and what the Zendaya character and what the Hunter Schaefer characters were even doing. And I'll say this, I've said this, I think, a couple of times over the course of this season. I am never bored for one second while watching this. Maybe it's just like the visual panache, maybe it's the cutting, maybe it is the wild swings between genre that happen from scene to scene so that you're like, well, like we're back in a fucking Western gangster Tarantino show. Or I'm now I'm in the most harrowing parts of Midsommar, you know, like you swing back and forth and in every scene, I find an image or a moment like Sidney Sweeney's bloodshot eyes as mod F Tao is like, her sister, Lexi is like, That's her sister? That's her sister, yeah. And her sister is like, I just need a second. It's almost like we have to step down from it. I got to go for a walk, and I got to get out some stuff that I don't think we should put onto the internet. Okay, that's your sister. And the, the conversation where she's just like, are you okay? And she's like, why are you asking me that is the best day of my life. It's fucking good stuff, man. But I was thinking about this because like, I'll just, I'll just, I'll just keep going with this. Yeah, I was thinking about this with the saran wrap scene. So Jules is becoming a sugar. What's the baby sugar baby. And is dating guys with the understanding that they're like she'll provide a certain experience for them and that they're going to pay her for that. But there's different like there's variants like these guy wants a different thing and she happens upon a plastic surgeon named Ellis, who becomes her main. This is Sam Trammell who is on True Blood. Is it Trammell or Tramel? I was gonna, you know what I decided to do in that moment? Let it fly. Well, because like I think of Alan Tramel, the Tigers, Shortstop with Lou Whitaker. And Tramel Tillman from Severance. Right. So whatever his, however he chooses to pronounce it, I'm with him. But that is, that seemed like the sort of sequence culminates with Jules going to his apartment. And this incredible piece of Hans Zimmer and the Zimetz music playing. And I truly do want to know if Hans Zimmer was like, so describe what I'm making music for. Hans Zimmer just Googling mummification fetish. And the Ellis character wraps Jules in Saran wrap around her entire body, except for her mouth and nose as she can breathe. And then starts making out with her and is like, I'm going to keep, I just might keep you forever. It is just such a stunning image. Yeah. I suppose it's problematic. I've not yet started to unpack how it's mummifying her seems, you know, laden with meaning. But I don't know, you just like, when do you see something like that? Yeah, look, I mean, I'm with you. Imagine. I said, that's the kind of thing where it's like, as an image, I don't even know what it's supposed to mean in relationships to the rest of you for you. Same screen. I watched Daniel Tiger on with my kids and now look at us. You've dirtied it. Now I had to get a new TV. Just threw it straight in the garbage. Thanks, Sam Levinson. Yeah. If you were to engage with this show and I've tried to and maybe look, maybe this is just the problem that was always waiting for me with my watching a view for you, which is now it's becoming an ongoing television show for me, not just a series of striking directorial images. And the problems are starting with my reaction to it. These series of images that we're seeing on the screen are not boring and they are striking and there's a lot of thought given into each one and the composition of them. And I continue to just be blown away by the color story of the show and how much work went into not just on the day by the cinematographers and the camera teams, but like later in color correction. That's what it has to look like. What they're filming is like the Rue selling guns sequence is like, this is awesome stuff. That said, this is, and maybe this is where we differ and this is a healthy source of debate. I fundamentally don't find sex work, guns and drugs interesting in a vacuum or in a photograph. I want, I know this is our last episode. Go take it up with your sister, Maud Abattow. You don't find sex work, guns and drugs just on their own disconnected from humanity or human beings. Shoot them in Vista vision. Well, okay, say more. That like Zendaya playing with an AR-15 is a hell of an image. It's also ultimately to me kind of impotent and lame because it's just Zendaya with guns. It's not about anything. It's about performing. It's about play acting. And I felt the same way about the gangster eating pie while his associate beats the shit out of Lourdy and cuts his toe off. That's why he's calling him associate. Oh, what do you think the relationship is? Do you think he gets health care? Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You think he's an EVP in that? You know, he might be a task rabbit. Like we're all Uber drivers to a degree now. You know what, so like as a series of images, it is well constructed, but what does it signify? Like I just found it to be, what's the word I'm looking for when I talk about the show? Morally bankrupt. I don't think you think that. Let's throw that out there. No, that image, though I'm not going on that high horse. I can't get there anymore with my knees, but I'm just saying the sequence of pictures are starting to dissociate from any kind of engagement that I potentially would have had with the people who are in the pictures. I would imagine. And it just feels like what the priority is maybe differing. Now, when we go back to the Rue, Alamo, Loury stuff, I think it's at its best. It's slightly above Tarantino light thus far, but it's engaging and it's well shot. And its central figure is one of the great actors we have at the moment doing something unique that she's clearly interested in exploring. And so I'm in. I am into that show. And so maybe you could, we can write, we could, maybe we could describe it, move on to next week under the idea that, well, this episode was about other things that I'm less interested in possibly. My two cotton rejoinders to that would be one. And your mileage may vary on the social commentary being offered by Euphoria, but there is that very like sort of darkly comic line that Rue says where she's like, you may be, you know, thinking to yourself like, like she's selling guns. Yeah. But I assure you, they were all going to Mexico, you know, like that, that kind of like, does that make you feel any better about things that I think the Rue. No, I think the Rue voice. And again, I'm not assuming intent here, but I think that the Rue, the Rai Rue voice, which is undercutting, which is pointing out some of the, you know, hanging a lantern on it, as we may say in the TV industry about like how ludicrous or hyped up some of it may be helps. And I think on a very basic level, like it just strikes me as someone who is making a new season of something that has to connect dots and advance story in areas that he and the people involved may be less interested in. I also wonder. But that story has the juice. It does have the juice. And it is a good story so far. And this woman's sort of quest for even like she says things like I want to go legit. And it's like, like, does she have any interest in going legit? Does she even care in that Alamo interrogation of the idea while very Tarantino and it's like, let's do a history lesson. You know, it might be a little rote for people, but like, yes, if it was just the Rue story, that would be one thing. The switching between these couple of other storylines and the way in which it happens kind of makes me wonder whether this is the most expensive and beautiful experience of swiping through reels that I've ever seen. Because my brain actually does respond to and now something else. A run, a cat, you know, like an instruction on how to putt. Like, like that's how we get some insight into what you get. That's like a woman wrapped in ceramrat, like a gun sale, like a wedding. It's like these things don't sit next to. Creamy pint of Guinness, plate of pasta, steamed white fish, Creamy pint of Guinness. We can all play this game. Yeah, but that is kind of how euphoria feels. It feels like short form video made with tons of money on a wide screen. Yeah, I think that whenever, historically, when I have played the Amoral card, it is a conversation ender. I'm not trying to walk away from this project because I think that what, first of all, the headline remains what you've said each week. It's not boring. I did find some of the connective story tissue of this episode boring, but that's on me. I didn't watch the show. Right. I think that there is there is something to be said about something that is so extreme in its stylistic choices and in its points of view and what interests it collectively. Although when we say that we pretty much mean Sam Levinson, that it is not like other things on TV. We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity engaged in something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago. I'm still on like, I don't think people did this against their will. No, no, no, I don't mean to say that, but I, but you don't get, we've never had anything like this before. Yeah. And it is a fascinating, if nothing else, and I think it is more than this, it will be a fascinating artifact of this era in which TV takes so long to make and the logistics are so challenging that you end up with a third season that is essentially both a new first season and also just a very bizarre sliding doors digression season based on what people are passionate about at the time they finally got the schedules aligned in the budget. Yeah, I'll just, I mean, like even on an episode like this where it didn't quite hang together as much for me or maybe it was like a little bit of a let down because I wanted more fireworks between the main cast in one place. Maddie walking back to her sad apartment after a day in like the opulent Calabasas dream world. For better or for worse, the Saran wrap scene, Rue selling guns and the whole Lori, like Paladin situation at the end was just like those are like four standout moments that honestly, like on a bad episode euphoria for me still has like a couple of moments that are better than anything else I'm watching. So I give it a lot of leeway. Do you have a particular reaction to I now I'm just trying to do the I'm trying to do the work of someone who had watched the show but there was a scene when Rue's driving when she's on the phone with the character who's the actor passed away right. That's correct. I'm curious to see how much I know that honoring Angus' memory was a very significant motivational thing for Sam Levinson in making the season entirely, at least in the interviews I've read with him. And I am curious to see how much he makes as a character, not that I think he's going to show up in any kind of way, but that the idea that he is going to try and escape prison now is much different than, oh, we just hear about him in the background a bit. Well, also the genesis of the show, right, is both in terms of the background of what attracted Sam to the storyline and then also the storyline that's the like the beating heart of the first two seasons is an addiction story, right. And a cast member passed away from an accidental drug overdose. So you wonder if there's a if it's inspired if they were motivated to make it in his honor. I wonder what the thematic onscreen response to that event might be. And I think if if if as seen in the trailers if Coleman Domingo's character comes back into the fold, I'm sure that will be a factor. We should wrap up euphoria there. I look forward to talking about it with you next week. Kai, what's your flyer? What's your flower budget? Yeah, has it fluctuated all in the last few weeks? I will say that I know I'm like pretty badly wedding piled at this point because I saw all those flowers and I was like, I think that makes sense for 50K. I mean, it was very lovely. Do you think you'll get that kind of pep talk on your walk down the aisle? Like Cassie got. I can only hope. Yeah, I have to say that this is a sidebar that I did want to bring up on this show one way or another that I think it's incredible that it took the release of the Michael Jackson biopic for one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy of the last few years to finally be discovered by the mainstream, which is the bubble thing, which is John Mulaney interviewing Langston Kerman as bubbles from last year's Everybody's Live. Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me. Those of us who were that we were we were with bubble shooting in the gym. First of all, we've known how funny that is, but I only want to bring it up because it's a masterpiece and the first shot of the ice sculpture. I did think was Michael and bubbles, right, which I think was intentional, but I did think that it was John Landis also was drinking the toilet water. I think it's really sweetie being like I look fat in this ice sculpture and him being like, it'll look better as it melts and she's like, but I don't want my boobs to melt is like, where else are you going to get that? You know, no, it's like the it's like the old all mankind like show me the way it just it's from Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks to that. You know what I mean? It's just the way for a second. I get by the way, just in terms of cannon that there was a moment when when Sydney Sweeney when Cassie's yelling at Nate and pops him in the eye with the champagne bottle that the Nate Jacobs was going to be like, Lord, forgive me. It's time to go back to the old me. I thought that too, because you planted that seed. Then he was just really, really sweet turn and then he got his toe cut off. When we talk about it next week, we should probably I assume there'll be more about them in their happily married life that began. Maybe I'll do a lower download for you next week. I just might be my job for next week because I don't want to do another week going on. Well, the draft's over. My schedule is clear. I don't get those characters. I don't understand and I don't understand the dynamic. So maybe maybe now that he has to get Naz's money, it'll, you know, you get the characters on beef though, beef season two, which is a show we this your segue. We love. Yes. And I don't want to belabor it. We can maybe touch if we want to talk a little bit more broadly about the season. We can hit on Thursday. So we want to get into our interview with Sonny Lee, which went on for about 45, 50 minutes and was wonderful. He talked a little bit about his writing process, his pitching process, which I thought was very interesting. And everything about casting beef season two with Kayleigh Spaney and Charles Melton and Oscar Isaac and Kerry Mulligan, the themes he was looking to discover some stories from set really, really exciting to talk to him. He's an awesome interview subject. And then some X-Men. And some X-Men. So let's get into our interview with Sonny and we will be back on Thursday for, I would imagine, Okay. Top Chef Restaurant Wars. Yeah. I, we hear you, everybody asking us to watch America's Culinary Cup, perhaps one day, but I, I've only so much time in the day for cooking shows. What about you? I, I, I too only have so much time in the day for cooking shows. I'm with you, but I have not watched it yet. And I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm just forgetting right now. So that's a hell of a tease. Thank you to Kaikaya and Sarah for shooting with us today. And we'll be back on Thursday. Enjoy this interview. Sonny, thanks you so much for joining the watch again, man. It's, it's great to see you and congratulations on a fantastic season of beef. Oh, that's great. This is the fastest ever turnaround from loving a show to having the creator. So thank you for that. Yeah. Now it's waiting right up. I really appreciate it. I was like, they like it? I wanted to ask you a little bit. I don't know if you think about things in these terms, but I was trying to, you know, articulate a bunch of my feelings about the show. And one of the ways I usually do that is try to describe genre. And I came up with dark screwball for, for the season of beef. And I was curious if you would ever identify a genre or a micro genre for the season for yourself that maybe helped you find the tone. Yeah, the tone's hard on this one. Yeah. I came up with a formula season one that I just kind of did as a joke, but it's weirdly stuck for everybody where I call it like 35% soprano slash early PTA comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of people plus 35% like Netflix, Vengeability slash white lotus, water cooler moments moments. Plus 30% Heracasa Coreida, Ingmar Bergman, warm melancholic pathos. Which percentage of those percentages do you share with Netflix? Because I felt them lean in the middle. Did you say Vengeability? They, they weirdly like, I think, I think part of the reason I came up with the formula is to help them like understand the show. Because it's like so hard season one, especially to take what's in here and like get people to get on board. And oddly, that formula like worked for them. They were like, okay, like, as long as it's like balanced like that. And Bella's like more Coreida. I'm like, I'm so sorry. There was a Norwegian filmmaker named Vengeability. And you can just reference, you know, it's just like, of course, you know, it'll be very Vengeability. It's like, yeah, okay, well, play check. Yeah, weirdly, they have been, I think it's like, I try to treat the conversation with networks like just always explaining the why, you know, instead of like taking my heels or anything. Like, I remember one time, and I hope it's okay that I share this. And if not, I'm sorry, Netflix, but they, I think it was season one, like episode three, we were at an impasse. Like they just were like, not like wanting to do the show anymore. And I like sent them a, I think it was like a TED talk on this concept called the Beholder Share. It's like an art history term about like, why paintings, like great paintings offer a lot of share to the eye of the beholder. And I like explain to them like, if a bed, bath and beyond painting, like people don't like, because it's like, this is a beach. And there's no participation from the audience. And whereas Mona Lisa, like, you have to interpret it and wonder why she's smiling, is she smiling even? And like, we had the whole like one hour Zoom talking about this concept. And by the end of it, they're like, okay, no, like we get it now. And so they're like, yeah, we see what you're trying to do in episode three, like in terms of like the Beholder Share thing, maybe like, here's a little bit too confusing for us. But if you're saying that the audience wants to participate, great. So like, I find that like talking, like overly talking through everything gets me through some of this. You're my hero. That's incredible. Now, genuinely, do you think like what percentage, because you're good at fractions, do you think they were like, this really moved me and changed my perspective about television versus he sent me a 55 minute video to watch. I'm just going to let him make the show. We don't have to name names, but I'm just wondering if it's. I think it's probably both. It's like a combination of all the things. I mean, that's why like my pitches to networks are so involved with, you know, I went to U Pen, it was supposed to be investment bankers. So PowerPoint is like, actually like my true medium, you know, I'd say even more than television. And like, I have these very involved, like 50 minute pitches where I'm like photoshopping like the actors into existing frames from other movies. And some of it almost is animated and there's like music. And I like literally go through the beats of the pilot with score. And then I even like have title cards in PowerPoint that like I cut to as like to punctuate a pitch. And I do all that to just not leave anything to anyone's imagination. Do you feel like you that is actually a creative act for you? Like, do you feel like that's where the sort of creative ball starts rolling downhill? Totally. Yeah. And probably I like thrive in that PowerPoint. It's all down there. Yeah. So season two, which again, I just think is really, really amazing. I loved watching it. And I especially loved the way you built on what was season one and changed some things, slowed some things down, worked dials a little bit to communicate. I think better what the series of beef now that it's potentially ongoing is to you. Thank you. And one of the biggest things was clearly that season one is, you know, incredibly escalating conflict between the two leads and everything spins from that. This season not only has two couples, but I thought very brilliantly made playing over time that it's not just about a B for a conflict between two people, but about groups of people and ultimately about people and class and like a larger system. Yeah. So how many different versions of a story did you have to run through to figure out the best canvas for that idea? Oh, a lot. I think episode one had 16 drafts, 16 network drafts. And so that's not even like, including your stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it was just finding the right shape is so hard, you know, I think what I was running up against to up against was. Just I kept feeling like, because there were versions of this show where the beef started more overtly, like got to probably the blackmail way sooner. And I just found that when it was more overt that the story math after that started to become really similar to season one. Right. And there's ways to like offset it once you get deeper in, but like just that initial domino, I was like, I just energetically have done this. And, you know, I just want to, I don't like repeating myself and I just think about my favorite musicians and bands and think about sophomore album compared to debut album. And when they're like too similar, you just start to like lose interest a little bit, you know, like, I mean, I love Kings of Leon, but you know, that's kind of why I like fell off. We have a long term beef with them on this. This is the exciting incident for our season. Great. Let's get after it. Kings of Leon. What's going on? No, but like you look at a band like Radiohead, that's the Holy Grail to go from Pablo Honey, Ben's okay, good or today. It's like, insane. Yes. And so we, we kept talking about like in prep and within the writer's room, like, are we doing like, do we want to go from like Ben's to okay computer or are we talking to okay computer to kid A. And so we're trying to like figure out the right level of swing that we want to take. And that's why we went through so many drafts is, okay, what started to energetically feel refreshing to us, you know, so that it feels like we're on, we're doing new territory. What was the thing if you can pinpoint one or two that felt exciting and fresh to as a new starting point for the season? I think it was sort of the slower burn felt really nice to me. And I say something that really clicked in in the edit was also the cold open. We had so many versions of how to start that first episode. One was starting like completely in the older couples perspective and staying with them for a longer time. There was one version where we did younger couples perspective. So we just see the fight from their eyes. And then it wasn't until Josh was deleting security cam footage that we saw the fight through the older couples eyes. And it was like this kind of like surreal thing where he was like looking through the footage and you saw the fight happening behind him. Right. And you know, that was cool. Like from a filmmaking standpoint, like Jake and I were getting excited about doing that. But then just it was, it just felt strange to keep these perspectives separate. What felt more propulsive was that inner cutting of like, here's, here's this naive young couple here. This is him fighting. And it just felt these two trains that clearly were going to collide. And I was like, oh, that's, that's the show is just constantly like playing with how much these, these two couples are colliding or not colliding. That other version sounds a little moon shaped. Like a little cerebral and shillies. Yeah, no, not there yet. Did you feel like there was anything energizing or inspiring about changing the topography of California that you were covering? Because obviously it's more of a Southern California, it's, you know, broadly a Southern California show, but you start pushing up the Central Valley here and pushing up. And like, you know, I just was in Ohio this weekend and every time I'm like, I could live here. I'm also like, they talk a lot about spiritual cosmic vortexes here, you know, and there is an element of like, you go there and you start to immediately think about like how to improve yourself all the time. Totally. And I was curious what attracted you to the both the monivista part, but also like that, that whole area. Yeah, I think, you know, for me, for whatever reason, I have a hard time just writing from nothing, you know, and I need life in the universe to show me things. And that's just what I was experiencing. Yeah. I just find so many of my millennial friends have either moved to Ohio or bought a place there or vacation there often. And there is this, especially for millennials, for some reason, this like idea that that is this escape. Like we can clean slate and everything's going to be okay. And then Montecito, I, a good friend of mine, Chris, he, we, you know, we've been friends since our 20s, like temp together, like so poor in LA together. And then recently he came into a lot of money. Like it was number three at a company that sold to, I think PayPal for like four billion dollars. And so he's a member at Montecito Club now. And I was house sitting for him and he was like, oh, you can use my membership for a month. And I was like, how much do you pay? This is crazy. There's nothing in the world that'd be worth this amount of money. And I use it for like three days. And I'm like, can I see that application? What was it that appealed to you? Cause I think one of the other things that's so brilliant about Wavecrafted this season, every character is human, every character is fallible and every character wants things, even if they shouldn't want them. I think that you don't shy away from that. So maybe that also came from experience. Totally. I mean, we talked a lot in the writers room about hedonic adaptation and just like how quickly we as humans, like just new stimulus, new environment, like, bam, we adapt. We're such adaptable creatures. And suddenly we forget, we can't go backwards. That's Ashley. Yeah. Once you fly in the front of the plane and you get all the deserts. But that was actually what I was, Ashley is the most fascinating, I mean, I interrupted you. Ashley is such a fascinating character to me because one of my questions was, do you think that even if Ashley and Austin had never come across Josh and Lindsay fighting, Ashley was always going to find something that was like a lever to like move her life along? Or was she ever going to be content just being like, I guess this is just what things are, you know, like. I don't think so. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, that's what's fun about the way Kaylee played that character too. And we talked about it a lot with Nina and Jake of like how much we want to start her innocent. And that this is like a brand new, almost like disease that she inherits from everybody else or what's innately inside of her. And where we landed, I'm so glad you asked that is like, she plays it where even when, even in the pilot, like you feel a little bit like, that that is in her. Yeah. You know, there's this like slight like edge to it and even like, even in her like love for Austin, there's an anxiousness because she, you can just tell this is someone that like is seeking and like holding on or wanting more. And so I absolutely think even if they had to witness that she would have found something else that she needed to, it's such a great portrait of like people in love at that age where you're like, this is so cool, right? Like we both work at record stores. Not that I'm speaking. I came from a deep place. So specific. One person wakes up and is like, so what are we going to do? Yeah. What are we going to do with our lives? Like this is fun, but like, are you ever going to wear a shirt with buttons? Also, once they've seen as they see in the beginning, once they see how Josh and Lindsay live, when you go back to their home, we're seeing it the way they're seeing it. It's a perfectly fine apartment for 20 year olds, but then they've seen what maybe they feel they're supposed to have. Exactly. And we're watching that as well. Well, I mean, that was what was so fun about kind of writing these younger characters as a room. And we have, you know, younger writers in the room too, but just thinking about what we used to be like. And what's funny is like, it feels not that long ago, but then also so long ago to think about like relationships from 20s. And then a funny thing that came up in the room is just this like the question, what are you thinking? You know, like, like you used to ask that like so in love, like you genuinely wanted to know what the other person was thinking. And now it's like never said in like a, like, it's like, okay, what are you thinking? Like, you know, and so like, just like, So you're thinking now. Congratulations. Yeah. It's like the last thing you want to ask. But staying on the young couple for a minute, because I thought Charles Melton is just like revelatory in this show. He's so good and he's so funny. And it's such a rare thing to have someone who can be self aware and smart at being slightly dumb. I thought, I thought they were incredible. And particularly when you give him early on the line about actually this is all late stage capitalism is falling. And you realize that he's read this on a Reddit board or something. Yes. And he captured this tone that is both giving us a roadmap for what the series is going to be about, because that is what they come up against. And it does undo them all. But also he's a little bit clownish when he says it. It's convenient to blame. Yes. That felt like a really important hinge point for the character and for the season. So much of writing Austin was looking at our own lives and what I feel like we all do that these days. Like, like lately I've been saying like, oh yeah, I just read. And when I say that, I'm like, no, I saw on Instagram, you know, two sentences over a stock photo. Well, where's my mind? And so, you know, I think Austin felt like someone who truly, you know, there's, he also probably has an insecurity being like a, you know, failed athlete. And so he wants to feel useful and smart. And so he is trying to grasp at these larger concepts, but can't. And, and, but I think, I think for a lot of us, like, all the things we're grasping at are true. Yeah, you know, we just don't have the means to fully understand it and to even understand why it's happening. But I love the way that Charles played Austin too, because in the wrong hands, it could have been very like too much of a buffoon, you know, like a classic like him bow. And I think Charles, he injected so much more humanity into this character. He was so protective of Austin. There are often times where he was so locked in that he would make the entire crew laugh, just like destroyed on set. And then he would, he would have to like go to his trailer upset. Because it's like, are you laughing at me with me? Yes, yeah. And he was like, he was like, I feel like everyone's laughing at me. I don't know why people are laughing at Austin. Austin means well. He's like trying. And so like now, like, given some distance from the character, he'll like watch the show and laugh at himself like more than anybody else. But in the moment, he was so in Austin that he couldn't even like take the fact that he was crushing on set. Did you, I've read, I've read varying reports on this. Like, do you write for these actors specifically, if possible? Like, did you write this for him with him in mind? And was that also the case? Or maybe we know it's not the case for the older couple and we could talk about that. Yeah, I try to attach actors really early on because I can't write to people in a vacuum and write characters in a vacuum. And Charles was the first piece because I knew the half Korean arc was really important to me. And I watched May December and was blown away like everybody else. Like that scene on the roof where he smokes pot. It's like heartbreaking, but so funny. Yeah. He's like, he's so amazing in warfare too. It's like, if you see him in warfare, like it's mind blowing what he's doing in beef because you're like, oh, you could be like, I mean, he kind of does remind me of Brad Pitt in that way where it's like he's capable of being the like the punchline in a scene, but he's also capable of being like a full leading man. Yeah, he's a complete chameleon. And so I attached him really early and like, you know, we became fast friends. He likes to tell this story about on the basketball court because I was running this house and there was a basketball court playing basketball like every week. And he's getting these early drafts and there wasn't a lot. You know, his arc was like paced out to be what it is. And again, locked into Austin, he was kind of like upset. He's like, I'm just the side character. And he tells a story of him, him blocking me really badly. And that was him taking out all this frustration. What's your story? My story is that I think I won 11-4. That was a foul. Yeah. But no, I think what's great about Charles is that he just gave so much of himself to the project. Like, you know, all that time on the basketball court, I was like mentally noting all the little ways he spoke. Like Charles loves to put handles on his dot, like whatever he says, he'll be like, if I may say this, Sonny, my perspective is, my perspective is Sonny that I think. And so he'll like say all these handles before he gets to his point. So I'm like, oh, that's so Austin. Yeah. And so I was just jotting down all these Charles-isms to kind of make this character very bespoke to him. But I did that for everybody. You know, I think just hours and hours of conversations with Kaylee, with Oscar, with Carrie. You know, Oscar and Carrie, like, you know, they discover a lot in rehearsals. And like, we'll have like hours of like really in-depth Zoom conversations about super personal things. And so then I'll spiritually put that into the characters. But then dialogue, that's all a lot of it is discovered in rehearsals. And then that'll kind of get them feeling good. And then usually after that, we'll like start to put back some of the like little ornamental like jokes and stuff that we liked. And then once they feel like they're in a good foundational place, then they're like more apt to try some of like the sillier jokes and stuff. When did, when did Carrie and Oscar come on? And did you have to tweak, like for example, Carrie being English is essential to the character now in a way that I can't imagine it otherwise. But I don't know what draft that turn occurred. That, they came on pretty early. It was Charles and Kaylee first. And then, and then I was sort of looking at different configurations of actors that had a history behind them. Right. You wanted people who had worked together before. Yeah, because the first impression of Josh Lindsay is so bad that I was really worried that no matter how we write it, we might lose the audience. They don't feel this inherent like subtext between the two. And so Oscar and Carrie, it's like, you know, they're two of the greatest movies of this century, you know, between Drive and then Silemon Davis. And so I went after Oscar first just because we're both at WME. And that was easier. So romantic. I wish I had a better story. Because I blocked his shot. You know what? There's some jokes about his height in the show. There is, yeah. And he, I mentioned Carrie and he like lit up because I guess they've been pitching each other for every project they've done since Silemon Davis. And so I went to Carrie pretty soon after. Didn't you say he's like his favorite person to act with? They have a safety between them that is like insane. Like you watch them together and it just feels like it's like, how do I even want to say Jordan Pippin? It's like two Jordans, you know? Spider-Man meet the Gordon. Spider-Man meet the Gordon. Because you know with those guys. There's a shorthand between them that is like unreal. And they just, they don't even have to say anything. They just like, no, like where the other person's going. Like one person starts to push the scene a certain way and there's like not a missed beat. It's really crazy to watch. But yeah, I think they both attached pretty early on. I think I had maybe like one draft of the pilot that I had sent to them. And you know, once Carrie was on, I'm just like, oh, we have to switch to British. She's amazing on the show and the specificity. And this is a theme I keep coming back to when talking about how much I love the season. But the specificity of her being sort of this slightly failed British aristocracy posh lady, everyone who sees her on Instagram thinks she's thriving. But of course she's run out of funds and she searches the Daily Mail for people she knew or once slept with. That twinned with the absolute like millennial headshot of Josh loving hot chip, which is so specific and not a diss at hot chip. But I've never met anyone who said hot chip is my number one favorite band. They haven't heard the whole frequency spectrum of. Yeah, but it's so razor sharp. And like that's what makes the show. And are those the things that you have, do those things happen first? Like you think of that and the character comes from that? Or as you're building the character, do those details just populate? It says we're building it. And that was really early on with Oscar. Because truthfully, early drafts had him the synth stuff and the MOOC stuff didn't exist. It was sort of like first thought lazy and I say I had, we had written more that he was like really into like the luminaires. And so we had like, I'm here for that season. Three scenes where he like, there was like, he's doing a lot of ho hay, like covering ho hay. And I think also I was like, I like so hell bent on, remember that outcast cover of Hayah that was acoustic? Yes, sure. And I just, that's so millennial cringe to me that I was like hell bent on getting that in the show and any which way or form. And so I think that's why I lean so hard into the acoustic guitar for Josh. But once we started talking about it, Oscar and I was like, okay, you did that on Insight Lumen Davis. Like we don't need to see Oscar Isaac with an acoustic guitar again. Like how am I ever going to beat the Coen brothers? I just won't have to. So we started talking about like other things that are millennial cringe. And then the idea of like a 40-some year old just like having this mini MOOC. And like, like just like, because MOOCs are also really hard, you know, like you like buy it and then you like think you're going to get really good at like oscillator stuff. Not in the story of the lab yet. Like it's never cool. Yeah. And so that's when we were like started really laughing together of we talked about the like that seminal concert at the bowl where we literally name-checked in the show with LCD and hot chip opening. Like I feel like every person my age who lived in LA at that time was at that show and cried and probably was on Molly. Yeah. Probably posted about it on Twitter when it was good. Yeah, exactly. And so that's where we started having fun. We're like, oh, should it be LCD or something? But like hot chip felt like that perfect bullseye of, I mean, they're an incredible band. I've seen them so much live. But like you said, they don't quite get the shine that they deserve. And they're also a band that would that Troy could call and in a moment show up at a Denver Chalet or a Utah Chalet and play at this like weird event. And so it's just like a lot of conversations talking about things that we find cringy about ourselves. You know, Is that also where because I was curious about the pop culture references and the thinking around like, you know, rooting these characters in having fights about bullet train or top them Maverick and mescal, mescal nights. And yeah, like the idea of like you populate it with. It's funny too, because like, I guess Josh and Lindsay do a little more of it than Austin and Ashley, because it's probably like they have more time to kill and they're more, you know, they're like still indulging in all of their cultural obsessions or whatever. They still go to the beach once a week. Sure. But like, you know, like Austin and Ashley are kind of like grinding to make ends meet. But when you when you're putting in references to contemporary pop culture, are you like, how do I make this so that it's not immediately like, you know, in any year this is like, okay, we've dated ourselves. I think it's just, it has to feel like it's coming from character. You know, like even season one, when Danny like, I think he name checks like Lincoln Park hybrid theory, you know, and it's like, it's just we just did that because like that is what that person Danny would be talking about in even in 2023 at the time. And, and I think for someone like Josh and Lindsay, I just felt like I had heard different couples post COVID fighting about that. Like I've heard that like structure of a fight amongst friends of like, well, I didn't get to go to that because you had COVID, you know. And so like, like just having heard that so many times in my own life, I'm like, okay, like that structure is very relatable. Like what movie could be that and Top Gun Maverick and Bullet Train, those are just like, I don't know, there's things that I feel like feel more of Josh. Sure. You know, like, I don't think Josh is going to the theater to see like, you know, director parks the handmaiden at the Lemley when it opens. But you have to be careful because it's got to be something that Oscar Isaac could not possibly have been in. Yes. No, we do and he's been in a lot. You are in drive dog. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're speaking to us so interesting because I think that the one of the skills that you and your, your crew and creatives have is like to draw the universality out of something very specific. And I'm thinking in this case about the way you use phones and social media, which I think is the best I've ever seen on a TV show because it's not just the, the text on screen, which we've seen, it's the swappings between apps, which, you know, mirrors the way and this is something we were talking about last week, like the way our interiority is so impatient and so restless and we can just feed ourselves constantly even within a thumb movement. Yeah. And, you know, the way that like it informs the scene so that Austin is just speaking chat GPT sweating, trying to take his head above water, you know, or, and you may have heard me say this last week too, I love that your show ran at the reality of recently deleted because I think generally when, when, when movies and TV use phones, they, they allied the bits that don't work for the drama that it would still exist in the cloud. But you ran right towards it. And can you talk a little bit about that conversation that you have with your writers about how we, we have to use what is actually out there. Thank you for noticing that because we, we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about exactly that. Like, you know, I think that backup video thing is, is a good call out because there was, there was some debate in the room of like, should we abandon this backup video because like, yeah, like they would back it up to the cloud and, and it's just, you know, the things I've learned from watching stuff that I love like Sopranos and Breaking Bad. They're always like not shying away from the thing that like backs you into a corner because that's what life does life backs you into a corner. And so then yeah, like, you know, if, if Ashley like deletes the text, then like recently deleted, oh, that sucks that it's there, but then like we should lean into that like we can make that a story point. Yeah. And, and I think so we're always just trying to like, look at our own lives the way we feel and try to figure out the most efficient way to dramatize that. You know, the app switching thing that's, I had a shout out someone on our VFX team, Melissa Conch came up with that this season, I thought it was just brilliant, you know, because it's such a quick way to do exactly what you're talking about. But we pour over everything from like, like we spent hours like trying to find like the right like font and like, you know, how much is true to the actual OS versus like taking liberty and bending it. Like, how do we just make this feel like how it feels for us when we use our phones and even in the mix when Ashley is texting Austin about, you know, can you go to H&M, can you do this? Like, we boosted the his fast angry typing because that's how it feels when you're like angrily replying to somebody like you hear it a little louder. And so just all these like very subjective ways we can create that experience because it's that that phone is just a part of who we are now and there's no going back. There's even like, the stuff that happens when Ashley is texting Eunice about, and it's like, Ashley's been in an accident, but like her texting as Austin is not Austin's voice kind of stuff. Which is like, that makes or breaks things. It can take you out of out of the reality of what's happening if it's not, if it's not accurate. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Montevista and the golf club stuff and then the connection to Seoul. And I know you wanted to talk about this as well, but I was curious whether or not to start with that came fully formed to you as like a whole package of this is where I want the show to go. And this is this other element of the show or whether that was something that was developed over, you know, after thinking about these four characters for a while, there was like, I want to bring another element in it. It was the former because, you know, Charles was the first piece because I knew that this half Korean identity tug of war was something that's going to be very important to this season. And as part of that tug of war, I knew that, you know, native Korea was going to be on one end of that. And, and again, it was just writing from what I know what I was experiencing like after season one, I was a shot of music video for RM, one of the guys in BTS in Korea and I hadn't been back in a really long time and getting the red carpet like rolled out for me and like getting wind and dine in like the private halls of a Korean Korean conglomerate and it was, you know, there was a joke to this one actual chairwoman. I was like, Hey, like, I'm getting like a skin like self conscious about my skin because you're like, making me meet all these kpop idols. And she just like, without missing a beat, she was just like, Oh, I'll send you to my skin guy. I was like, What? And she's like, Oh, tomorrow in the morning, a black SUV will pick you up and we'll send you to our skin guy. Don't worry. And so I'm like, Okay, when in Rome? Yeah, you look great. Well, you know, that's why I look like I got to go back. But I did this like light laser and I was just writing in my notes app the whole time. I was like, this is fascinating. And I remember writing in my notes app before I even had like a page of anything for the show. I was just wrote old boy style fight in skin clinic with skin flying around. I'm just like, I haven't seen that before. And, and you look around and this is like a world that's like thriving. Like it's like one of the biggest like, you know, like, like, agents of tourism for the country, like people are like going over there in the masses. And no one's really like dramatized this. And I'm always looking for new slices of the Asian and Asian American experience to showcase. And we had covered so much California, Korean American diaspora. And I'm like, well, this is new and exciting to me. And so that was baked into the Charles arc. How we went about it definitely changed as you, you know, attached to the greatest Korean actors of all time. That's the segue to what I was going to ask. You not only have you and you Jung who won an Oscar and is, you know, an incredible actors as this supervillain of the show. You got song Kang Ho is one of the greatest actors alive to play a mostly comedic supporting part. Yes. On the show. How did how did those conversations happen? Miracle after miracle, you know, why did I had met through Steven, obviously on Minari, they work together. And I think I had, I emailed her and then she was interested. So then I met her in her vine actually at like a chairwoman, Mickey Lee, who's like the head of CJ at her house. So it's like already very meta. And I was pitching YJ the arc and you know, she's so she's much like her character is so intimidating because you just hold so much gravity. You know, she is like truly royalty. And once I got to the part where she had a husband 20 years younger, she just started cackling. She was like, no one in Korea would ever have the courage to write me a husband 20 years younger. And I think, you know, she's had such a story career to be offered something where she can feel like she's doing something new. It's I think something she's chasing. So she was in and then I told her, I'm like, Hey, I'm going to go after Song Kang Ho because like, why not? Like, let's go for the moonshot. And, you know, he, he I had met through the success of season one, we had dinner in Korea a couple times and I knew he was a fan of the show. But I also know like pitching him something that's like, you know, the sixth lead is like probably not going to go over that well. And also he had a very busy shoot schedule that he was already doing other stuff. So his initial reaction was no, like he I sent him a scene and he was just like, ah, like, I don't know. If it's going to work with my schedule and I'm probably not right for this. And I went back to why Jane, I told her and and she just wasn't going to have it. She was like, I'm going to call him. So she called him direct and she was just like, Hey, you're Song Kang Ho, you're the greatest actor alive. We talk about you like, don't know how to figure this out. Like, you're going to figure out how to play this. It's going to be great and you're going to be in the show. And so then like 48 hours later, I got like a sheepish text from Song Kang Ho being like, Hey, you change of heart. At what point did you tell him what may be the masterpiece of the season, which is his long, beautiful soliloquy about the mask of wealth and celebrity and what lies behind it and the dark truth of life. And then Austin says, I think I heard soup. Yeah, he he got that pretty late because I'm like notoriously late with my scripts and the finale was written like deep into the shoot. And I think he was getting a little anxious, to be honest. Like, he was texting me a lot through shoot about like golfing. Like in classic, like I think like Korean misunderstanding, like kind of like Charles and and like Charles's character and Dr. Kim. He had texted me early on being like, is there going to be golf in the show? And I thought he like, I thought hopeful and I was like, sure, whatever you want. You're the greatest actor of all time. He's like, well, please let me know if there's golf in the show. And I was like, do you want golf? And he's like, if there's golf in the show, I would just love to know. And I was like, I can write you a golf scene. Does he need to like get his wing dialed? And he was like, fantastic. If there's a golf scene, great, please send. And I was like, I went to the writers room and I was like, guys, we have to write a golf scene for Song Kang Ho. And like this whole time we're going back and forth about this golf scene. And I was like, this guy's like weirdly obsessed with like wanting to play golf in a show. And that's cool. And it wasn't until like we were on the day shooting in Korea that he told me that he was like so nervous to, because he doesn't know how to golf. Oh my God. And so he was stressed and I was like, oh man, I wish I would have known. You call this guy. That's his dream job. This is just, he's a swing doctor. I got some YouTube videos I can send him. Ultimately, I wondered, you know, you finished the show a while ago. It's out now for a couple of weeks. I don't know if you've had much time to reflect, but do you feel like this season of beef is ultimately cynical about love and marriage or clear-eyed about it? That's a great question. It's a good question. Follow up. Are you married? I am married and I think it's been interesting seeing everyone's different reactions. Because I've been trying to get better about that. Season one, like I literally read every single word written on the internet about the show. There doesn't exist a word about beef I hadn't read in season one. You need to go to Korea and get a laser treatment for that part of your brain holding on to all of it. And season two, I'm trying to be better and like stay off the internet a little bit more. But I have seen like some people are taking it very cynically and other people are like, oh, that's actually like really beautiful. And I think it is doing what we intended where we wanted the ending to be open to interpretation. We want that beholder share. And we also want people's interpretation to change over time depending on where you're at in life. And so like that's my favorite stuff is, you know, Sopranos, Mad Men, like, you know, I'll go and rewatch a Colin Brothers movie. I was thinking about burnt after reading a lot with this. Yeah, where I'm like, oh, the way I received it in my youth is different than the way I'm receiving it now. And that's our intention with this ending is, yeah, if you're in a certain spot, you might take this super cynical. I, where I'm currently at, I actually see it as like acceptance. And, and, and, you know, the reason we depicted the Buddhist concept of samsara as our last note was like, you know, the point of samsara isn't to be like, like, we're in this like eternal trap, like how cynical and give up, like the path to enlightenment is like the acceptance of samsara. And it's only like the letting go of it. And in the, like, almost like letting the wave of this wash over you that there is hope of breaking the cycle and, and, and hopefully pushing through this trap into enlightenment. So I personally, I mean, this may change in 10, 20 years. I don't know. But I certainly was trying to express a level of acceptance at the end. So I guess as a way to sort of kind of start to wrap up, how durable do you think this concept of beef is for you? Like, I, I love the idea of a, of a bucket you can put anything you're interested in, like as a show. But, you know, I know you're obviously a busy guy. Like how, how, how much do you find yourself putting down ideas on like a note to happen and be like, that's a beef idea. Like this fight I heard this conversation I had this, this idea, like it may not be like beef season three is rolling, but like beef season three is like in your mind somewhere. Definitely not. I, I, I, all my beef ideas that I had in my notes app, I like had pitched to Netflix and trying to get a season two, which like didn't happen for the longest time too. I was like, what is happening? I'm the beef guy. But, you've seen the dental, I'm gonna sit you. I like, I've like run out, you know, I definitely have tried to express everything I can through the show. And if, if this is the last season, which at this point I think is like, you know, a collective decision between myself and Netflix, I'm, I'm, I would be perfectly happy. It was just the last season because I'm really proud of the work we did. And, and I feel like I've said everything I needed to say through the show. But, you know, I also didn't expect season two to even happen. Sure. You know, like, I didn't know I was going to write about two couples until real life hit me. And, and so if something hits a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, I'm definitely open, but currently, like, it is a very like emotionally exhausting show to do. Yeah. And you really are sitting in the shadows of yourself for an extremely long time. And I got right all these golf scenes, right all these golf scenes. So I'm ready to like, I have so many other things I want to pursue. We're pretty knee deep and X men right now, and which has been like such a joy relative to this is when I would use some send Netflix the Tim Robinson thing of like, oh my God, I can't believe he admitted it. Because I'm asking you about that next. So I'm happy you said the word first. Yeah, of course. No, it's, it's, I think I definitely need to break from, from, from, from this vessel of literally the show is called beef is just antagonism, you know, I mean, season three could be the brothers from Kings of Leon's beef with each other. Just, just throwing it out there. That would be easier to write. So you said it so we didn't have to awkwardly dance around it. You are one of the writers announced working on the X men movie for Marvel and I don't want to give you into any trouble with NDAs and things, but I was curious process aside, your X men fandom, like coming into it, who's, who's your guy's who your creators. What brought you into that franchise before you got the call and what interests you about them. Oh, I mean, growing up like that was like the one thing my dad and I would watch together every Saturday morning. So it's the cartoon. Well, that was the initial way in, you know, and like cartoon for me, like I was obsessed with Gambit, you know, obviously like Jubilee, like you're like, oh, like Asian face, you know, like how cool, like in this like group of superheroes. And, and so Gambit and Jubilee were like, like my jam. And I like I was really obsessed with Gambit. And, and then like you kind of, you know, like everybody else you go in through Claremont. And, you know, I think that that the feeling of sort of the original team, I think is the movies. I love the movies as well, but like, it's a feeling that I that I miss, you know, and. And when you go back and watch that watch for like read some of the earlier stuff, there, there's so much like inner team, like almost like soapy things. Super melodramatic, you know, and they're either fighting the danger room or playing softball. Yes, all about their own. Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and I think like the the movies in a great way, like leaned into more of like the political backdrop, which is just always baked into it. Sure. But I think what's exciting about Jake's vision for this movie is he wants to get back to character first. He wants to really lean into sort of that like inner character dynamics and relationships and, and, you know, play around with the soapy stuff that was like baked into the comics. And we've been, you know, me, Joanna, Jake, Kevin, Lou, we've been in rooms every single day. Wow. And it's so exciting, like to have like literally in the Marvel room, they have every character in the X-Men comics just like put on the wall and you're just staring at the best IP on the planet. Like, can I get Bishop at it? Yeah, it's the craziest thing. It truly is. Like, I like can't believe this is real. Like it's so exciting. And that's also the, the, the hard part of it. It's like, you know, you feel a great responsibility with this because yeah, we, we like amongst us, like we are like we, we were trying to, we can really do anything. We're not like beholden to anything from the past. It's interesting because I think that one of the reasons why the MCU was so successful is because Kevin and his lieutenants were just elite at identifying the single log line at the heart of every one of these characters and communicating that like with a purity, you know, with it. You know, you were down through Spider-Man. And I think that you guys, and I know you worked on Thunderbolts, you, you were able to do that with characters that people weren't even necessarily aware of, or at least their connection going into it. X-Men, it almost felt like for years. I always thought that they maybe they were lucky not to have it in their arsenal because the log line is, you know, hunted and feared kids who hang out together but who also are avatars for every marginalized class in history. But then having large, you know, global villains gallery, but then also maybe shouldn't be fighting because they are an evolution of humanity. Yes. So I guess the question in there is how. Well, I think, I mean, we're really early on and I think what I, what I've loved about working with Kevin especially is that that guy just has like an uncanny innate sense of like what to chase. It's crazy. And I think Marvel has done a really great job of sort of clearing the deck. They had a lot of stuff going on. You know, Kevin was being pulled into a million directions. Like they've cleared the deck. They're focusing on like just a couple of things. You took Moon Knight season two off the table. Yeah, it took him right off the table. I'm so sorry. There are so many art and Moon Knight fans, but never say never. And Kevin's really locked in and his like, there's times like in the room, well, he'll, well, he'll say something where like, I think this and then like, I'll be like, you know, on the carpet, like, and of course every interview question is about X-Men and then like seven fans will come up. And then the thing that the seven fans say is like literally the thing that Kevin said in the room yesterday. So I'm just like, oh, he is just tapped in. Yeah. And, you know, I think he's put a lot of trust into Jake because I think they're very happy with how Thunderbolts turned out and that it is a character first movie. So, you know, it's really exciting. I, you know, I love have a pep in my step going to work because it's like, you know, it's a one, it's a nice break from, from this. And then to, you know, like childhood me is just like, yeah, you like driving to Burbank. I can't believe I'm doing this. Are you getting notes from your dad? Yeah. Yeah. Well, like my dad, it's like, you know, I told him that I got this. He was just like, that's the good one. That's incredible. Yeah. That's all I would ever need. Man, thank you so much for coming by. Congratulations on this season. Good luck with X-Men. Thank you. We will be monitoring the situation closely. Yeah, I'm sure. And please come back and join us again sometime soon, man. Yeah, I've got a list of follow-ups like could Meg Nido and Wolfry Zayn. I'm gonna fuck you because of the... Yeah, no, let's talk about it in a few weeks. All right, sounds good. Take care, man.