Buy, Sell, Hold Revisited: ACC

Hello and welcome to the Audible presented by Trader Joe's. I'm Ralph Russo from The Athletic, joined by Bruce Feldman and Stuart Mandel, my great colleagues. Today, we're continuing our conference by conference breakdown, kind of a season review and look ahead with the ACC. We'll hit the buy-sell hold and see how the guys did in the preseason. And of course, we'll get to an ACC-centric mailbag. Let's start, though. Well, we'll hit the news desk, guys, real quick. A couple of things that have popped up in the last couple of days. Trinidad Chambliss, the Ole Miss quarterback, whether he plays college football next year will now be determined by a court because the NCAA denied the appeal of his eligibility waiver. That wasn't necessarily surprising hearing next week for Chambliss, guessing he probably gets his he probably gets his injunction from a judge. Joey Aguilar is the other SEC quarterback who is taking this route to get another year of eligibility. He has a hearing next week. He has sued the NCAA. We all know how that will probably play out. and in college football playoff news the rose bowl will be a permanent quarterfinal for the next two years it was announced though fact is they signaled by announcing the next two years that it's going to be the length of the contract so it's going to be six years so stew uh the rose bowl uh sunset on new year's eve will still be part of college football for the next six years Well, the sunset kind of, when they moved it an hour earlier, it caught me off guard that we wouldn't get the sunset at all. But this is what the Rose Bowl wants. Wait, did we not get the sunset at all? Or did we just, there was no sunset? The sun was still out when they interviewed Kurt Cignetti afterward. Maybe because it was such a quick game. Yeah. So that's what they wanted. You know what I think caught me by surprise, though, Ralph, I didn't realize was that this year, the first, you know, in the past two years, right, It was one quarterfinal on New Year's Eve, three on New Year's Day. This year, the first one is going to be a day earlier on the 30th because the NFL has a Thursday night game. Right. Which hasn't been announced yet. Right. The NFL usually has a Thursday night game. But the fact that the NFL is going to have a game on New Year's Eve, I think, made some people go, oh, wait, are they actually going to do that? Hasn't been announced, but the CFP is acting like, of course, the NFL is going to play a game. I mean, their friends at ESPN would probably know. So it just shows you again, once again, like how awkward this whole thing is that you have to fit your 12-team playoff around the NFL schedule. But what choice do you have, right? Like as you said offline, ESPN did not pay all this money to put their marquee games opposite an NFL game. So that's the news and notes. I don't think there's anything more to hit there. Again, we have our Rose Bowl is going to be the centerpiece of New Year's Day, at least for another six years as a quarterfinal. Let's get into how you guys did on ACC Buy, Sell, Hold. The concept here before the season, before I started on the show, Bruce and Stu went through every Power 4 team, every Power 4 conference. Buy would be the team will improve from 2024 to 2025. Hold will be about the same. Sell, the team will get worse. So we're going to hold the guys accountable. I am judge, jury, and executioner. I love being able to critique them while, of course, being completely immune from critique. So this is working out great for me. We will start with a batch of teams. We're going to go about four. There's 17 teams here. So, of course, there's going to be a group with five because the ACC is a problem child. Let's start with a couple of marquee teams. Clemson, 10-4 in 2024, made the playoff. They were 7-6 this year, lost the pinstripe bowl. You guys were both buys on Clemson, so you were both wrong on Clemson. I was super wrong, by the way. I mean, to give Stu a little credit, he wasn't as epically wrong as I was because I picked him to the national title. I wasn't far behind. Yeah, Bruce went all in on the national championship. SMU 11 and three in 2024, excuse me, nine and four last year, missed the playoff. You were both sells on SMU and you were both right on that. Mustangs came back to the pack a little bit. Miami 10 and three missed the playoff in 24, 13 and three lost the national championship game. Y'all were both buying in on Miami to getting better in 2025. So you both nailed Miami. We'll throw one more in here uh Syracuse again just to to make it good for you guys because you guys were on a roll here at the beginning uh Syracuse 10 and 3 finished 3 and 9 in 2025 you both sold on Fran Brown as much as you like the guy you both sold on him so you're both right there um I don't know we've talked a lot about Clemson we can get back into that I'm actually a little more interested in maybe talking a little bit about Miami and whether we are now entering a new golden era of Miami football, Bruce? Good question. I mean, it's got to be built differently because old Miami, really old Miami was built on elite quarterback play. They were really one of the first programs back then, way back then, I'm talking about the Schnellenberger era to go in on really forward pass and having a you know like pro style offense and having an actual quarterback coach um those things didn't happen back then right um but they also had elite d-line guys and that was another hallmark and i think we saw that certainly last year um with bain and mesador and the guys inside moton is uh ahmad moton's back will be back next year um obviously damon Wilson was a really big addition for them from Mizzou as a really good edge rusher. I think big picture wise, Corey Heatherman was a terrific defensive coordinator hire. And I think that that is that helped change them and got the defense going right and made them really formidable. They're losing some really good players. Obviously, both edge rushers are gone. You lose two really good defensive backs but we saw a lot of their young dbs uh play a lot in the playoffs because they had to because of injury um they still have malachi tony who's one of the three best receivers in the country and they also um you bring back mark fletcher who fits mario cristobal style offense we'll see is darian mensa gonna be a slight upgrade from carson beck is he gonna be the same I mean he hadn't played in a I am I'm probably not as all in on Mensa as I don't think he's you know Cam Ward was a huge star for Miami right and he carried that offense Mensa put up big numbers but I do have a little bit of concern of like some of his play you know when they played Illinois, he turned it over a bunch. When they played Tulane, Jake Rutzloff outplayed him. I'm interested to see how he does in Shannon Dawson's offense. Obviously, Cooper Barcate comes with him. There's a lot to be optimistic about. They do have to rebuild the offensive line, but that's Mario Cristobal's thing, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I think they are now established as, even though they have not won an ACC title, I think they are the resident powerhouse right now because of not just where they came close to an international title last year, but also the way he has built the roster. And I feel like with Clemson stepping back, Florida State in kind of some disarray, I feel like they're the default team, Stu. Yeah, Stu, before you go, here's what I want to tee up. you're eventually we're going to get into you guys are going to do your top 25 coaching rankings give us a preview about where you might put mario cristobal now because i think what you think of mario cristobal probably and that's not just you but everybody i think also projects to where we think miami is now as a program i find that usually if you go into it with a thought in your head, like just ballpark, let's say top 10 to 15, then you go to do it and you realize there aren't 10 to 15 coaches to put above him, right? Like I feel like in the last few years, the pool has gotten thinner. So I haven't even, you know, I don't know about you Bruce, I haven't looked at what that list might look like, but certainly I think, I don't think he's completely silence the critics by any means, but I mean, give the man his due. He took a team to the national championship game, um, and almost won that national championship game against an undefeated team. Does that make him the number, you know, four coach in the country? Probably not, but, um, I mean, he should definitely be in the upper half. All right, let's go to the next batch of teams. There's a couple more of those that we, I don't want to hijack you here, but the one team we mentioned in the first batch, they were, Stu and I both were, had them as a sell. They were way worse than I think we both thought they were going to be, and that was Syracuse. Obviously, you have a big quarterback injury, and, you know, look, they had, I don't know, what was it, like 15 games of really good quarterback play if you go back to the year before with a former Ohio State quarterback, and then you go back with a former Notre Dame quarterback. I feel like they've been pretty smart in how they've acted in the portal. I would ask you guys, what do we think the expectation is? Are they somewhere in the middle right now? Are they a seven-win team? Do we expect that's what it's going to be? I definitely feel like if I was a Syracuse fan, I'd be happy with Fran Brown as my coach because I think there's definitely a higher ceiling with how he operates. What do you guys think? If I said to you, they will win six games, this year, would you take the over? Because I would. Ooh, I don't know if that sounds about right. I think what Syracuse needs, and this is what Fran, because even in the Dino Babers era, really this has been about the last 15 years of Syracuse football is these one-off years where, oh, hey, we shoot nine, 10 wins and then almost immediately go back to barely being bowl eligible. We talked about on the SEC show, peaks and valleys. And I just, what Syracuse really needs is to be like sort of stabilized at, we're going to win six, seven, like that's a prop six, seven. We're probably going to be in that area for most years and not bottom out, Stu. What Syracuse needs is to stop bottoming out like it did last year. And I understand they had an injury, but it really fell apart last year. It just needs to be less fragile at Syracuse. and I'm hoping Fran Brown can get them there. Well, I don't think the transfer portal helps in terms of building consistency from year to year. And I think last year, you know, we had Fran Brown on the show kind of during the middle of all that, the spring portal window when guys were getting poached. And, you know, I think you look back now, clearly last off season, Syracuse lost more in the portal than they picked up. And so you get a downshift, right? Maybe this portal season went better They did lose a couple more receivers. I don't know what it is about the receivers that go in the portal, but they seem on paper to have gained more than they lost. So if you can make that the norm, then maybe you can build some continuity there. But Ralph, you're right. To this point, kind of the standard, I mean, you'd probably have to go back to Donovan McNabb the last time they strung together a few great seasons. Yeah. It was a different where it's Paul Pasqualone, And frankly, it's a different it's a different landscape of college football. It's just a different world that we wonder if Syracuse can ever necessarily be as successful as they were again. OK, next batch of teams starts with the ACC champion, Duke, nine and four in 2024, nine and five. But yet somehow the ACC champion in 2025. Bruce, you were a sell. Stu, you were a hold. and Stewie, even though the season probably feels a little better because they won an ACC championship, I think you're right. And Bruce is wrong here, you know, in terms of like, they, they really didn't get a whole lot better under Manny Diaz in year two. Um, but they won a conference championship, Louisville nine and four in 2024, nine and four in 2025. They, uh, you both nailed that nailed this. You, you both had the Cardinals as a hold and they basically produced about the same season in the next year. I guess the one thing, no, no, about really about the same season. They both won a bowl game each year. Okay, Boston College, seven and six in 2024, first year under Bill O'Brien. The Eagles bottomed out last year, two and 10. You both had them as a hold, so you're both wrong. Last of the group, Virginia Tech, six and seven in 2024, three and nine last season and firing Brent Prye, which leads to the hiring of James Franklin. You both nailed this one as well. You both had him as a sell. And yeah, there was a definitely a good reason to sell the Hokies last year. There's a lot of there's some interesting teams here. Let's talk Virginia Tech. Let's talk. Let's start with Virginia Tech. OK. all right so i think i i don't remember exactly stew's rationale i just felt like this was you know brent pride good assistant was kind of tottering i didn't love the the offensive coordinator move he brought you know he brought phil montgomery it just felt like it was kind of a retread didn't you know there was just something there that was just kind of very underwhelming about the whole thing. And I feel like when it came to Pry it was the guy who might not who might been better off if he had been a group of five head coach to start then as opposed to jumping into it it not the sec but still the acc is a power four conference um and the expectations are still pretty high and uh in blacksburg remember you know justin fuente got off to a really nice start replacing a legend there in frank beamer and then really fizzled fast. I think going forward, you know, I really wanted to talk Virginia Tech because I want to talk about like James Franklin a little bit here. I think the more we get into this, the more I'm seeing going, you know, I feel like they made one of the better hires in this. They made it pretty quick. They moved. You know, look, I mean, we've argued a lot, Stu and I, about how high James Franklin should be on the coaches list. Obviously, I gave him a ton of credit for what he did at Vandy, but he obviously won a lot. I think kind of how he's put this together, and we're going to see Ethan Gronkemeyer and old Penn State guys on staff and everything else. I feel like they are a team that should be in the top four, top five, and will be in the ACC very soon. because whatever's going on with the economics in Tallahassee around that program that affect that program, I feel like there's a void there. And why not Virginia Tech? I mean, to me, that's my sense. I don't know if you guys agree. I mean, again, last year felt like it was a write-off. We're going to make a coaching change and we're going to be ready to bounce. And I feel like they are now. Virginia Tech won at a very high level for a long time under Frank Beamer. Now, they haven't been able to figure it out since. You might say, well, it was all that one coach. I mean, he elevated them. He put them on the map. But a lot of the same reasons it worked still apply. So I agree with you, Bruce. I think big upgrade getting James Franklin in there. It's not like, I mean, I know the end of the Penn State tenure wasn't good. But, I mean, he was in the college football playoff semifinal the year before. like so and nobody's expecting you to take to come in and you have to take virginia tech to the playoff semifinal right away so i i mean i expect big improvement right from year one and there just aren't that many schools the thing the thing that i think kind of holds the acc back but also creates an opportunity for virginia tech is virginia tech is one of maybe four schools in that conference that is football first and they're rabid about football they're not like well it's something to do till basketball season so those four and that's to identify virginia tech miami and florida state right and clinton yeah sorry clemson obviously maybe the school you know i don't know i don't know why the school whose hat ralph wears and we can talk about them a little later they have awesome football history they're in a phenomenal football state or football area and we'll get to them in a second they are we're leading off the next uh the next batch actually once we go to a break but i'm with you stew there's a void here and virginia tech could fill the void the one thing i i'm kind of interested in is brent pry remaining at the school and becoming the dc because he had worked as the dc under james franklin that's just an interesting weird little bit of a weird part of the carousel that happened but good for brent probably doesn't have to move but yeah I'm with you guys I think Virginia Tech um it becomes a super fascinating team as we talked about um where James Franklin should go in this carousel I found myself thinking man like don't necessarily worry about going to Florida State Florida State is such a mess take the other job that really where you're really wanted and go beat Florida state, right? Florida state is down. I think you could go, you could have your way with Florida state right now. If you're James Franklin. Okay. We got a bunch more teams to cover. We're going to hit a quick break. We'll come back and we'll continue grading the guys by hold cell. Okay. And we're back with the season review, uh, by cell hold, see how the guys did so far, pretty well. Um, I'm just a little hint here, just a little glance ahead, not quite as well on the back end here, but you know, let's, let's get going here. The next four teams up Pitt seven and six in 2024, eight and five in 2025. So that's a little bit better. And you guys were both a buy on Pitt. It's only a little bit better, but I'm going to give it to you both. I'm going to call that both. You both got that one, right? Okay. North Carolina. Hmm. What happened to them in, in 2020, 25, excuse me, in 2025. They're an interesting team. Uh, the Tar Heels went from six and seven in Mac Brown's last season, 2024 to four and eight under Bill Belichick in 2025. Bruce was a buy. Stu was a hold both wrong there. NC state six and seven to eight and five. Bruce was a buy. That's wrong. Stu is a hold. That's also wrong. Virginia. Yes, Virginia. Five and seven to 11 and three. The ACC runner up the best season the Cavaliers have had in years. You both were a hold. So you both got that wrong. But I think we're all pretty happy to see Virginia and Tony Elliott doing well. I think we might get into a little bit more later on about how sustainable that is. So I know you want to talk about Pitt, Bruce, and of course, we'll definitely talk UNC, but I'll let you fire it up on Pitt. Yeah, I think this is a program that you wonder, why are they not better? I don't know about you, Stu, but like the era Ralph and I grew up in college football watching, you know, they were playing Notre Dame. Obviously, we're playing Penn State. It was the 80s. They had a ton of, you know, one of the first stars I remember growing up was Hugh Green. Hugh Green was like Lawrence Taylor in college football. He had a good NFL career, but it was like, was just a dominant player. Ricky Jackson, dominant player. They had a bunch of defensive linemen. It was like everywhere. You know, they had what I thought are the coolest uniforms. And they have great history. You know, Tony Dorseth's before that. You know, Dan Marino. You have a ton of guys, you know, legends before that too. And the program has been good, but never great, right? And I think Narduzzi is a good fit. you know i like narduzzi a lot he's a he's he's arguably the best interview of a coach you're going to get because he usually does not hold back i mean he embodies also the city and the aura of what you would like want a pit coach to be right he's kind of gritty and unfiltered but how does the pit fan base feel about narduzzi you're you're more i don't think as well i don't think they think is is i don't think they think of him as glowingly as you guys just made it seem I do not think so. Yeah, I think they feel like he's plateaued there, Bruce. Yeah, and look, I mean, the team had a good season. They made a big quarterback switch, right? And Heinzschel played well. Mason Heinzschel played well. They're going to lose some really good players on defense. Kyle Lewis was one of the best kept secrets in college football. He tore it up at the Senior Bowl. NFL people love him. They lost it. I feel like Pitt has had really good defensive players and underrated guys. especially since Narduzzi's been there. And so I think they'll still find guys to plug in and blossom there. But the question I have, Stu, is like, and this kind of gets back to what you just asked, like can they be a top 10 team? They can be a fringe top 25 team. We've seen them come in and out. We've seen them beat some really good teams. And I don't know, you know, I don't know how far that is for them. You know, like I don't know. I mean, maybe Ralph, you have a better feeling this year. You're around Pittsburgh a lot. Your daughter goes to school there. Yeah. Like, what do you think the what do you think is holding them back a little bit? So this is really like one of these, like the world changed around Pitt. And that's the reason why it has leveled off to where it is. There was literally a time when Western Pennsylvania and Eastern Ohio was like the epicenter of great football. And those players don't exist there anymore. Right. It's just like the world has like the map has changed. Demographics have changed. And all of a sudden you have to go to Florida to find all the football players in Georgia and like the south. And there was a time when the Midwest just produced so many more football players than it does now. And I think that in many ways has been what's held Pitt back. The other part of it is, too, I think there was a time when playing in a professional city was something Pitt could overcome. And now it is a constant drag playing at the Steelers facility. Being in the Steelers facility can have some highlights. And, yeah, you can like, hey, you know, you get to watch Steelers practice if you're a Pitt player. Right. Narduzzi's office like overlooks the the practice field. And I remember visiting him once and I'm watching Aaron Rodgers like warm up a little bit. Right. For a couple of seconds. And so there's a little bit of a sell to that, but you don't have it on campus stadium and it's not yours. So I think the culture there excuses, though, I ask because this like the first point you made, Penn State made it to the final four two years ago. Penn State is in the same state. Okay, so I'm not saying you're wrong. I know it's a little different. Why is it different? Miami, by the way, plays in the Dolphins Stadium. You know, it's like that. I want to say that's an excuse at this point. But arguably that held Miami back for a long time. I'm not, but I would agree. Miami held Miami back for a long time. Yeah. I think Narduzzi is still living off that one great season with Kenny Pickett. and so he's I'm looking this it's crazy he's going into his 12th season there now 12th wild um since the 11 and 3 uh Kenny Pickett team they've gone 9 and 4 3 and 9 7 and 6 8 and 5 yeah I consider them an underachieving program especially they always seem to have a few high-end guys like some real stars have come through there and they still find a way to go seven and six it's like i i i know does that mean like fire that guy get him out of there i don't know but it does feel like they are not they should be better i'm not saying 11 wins every year but they should be better i don't want to make this a an hour-long pit episode but i will say like they also have to may have a bit of a come to jesus moment when it comes to investing They hired a new athletic director, Alan Green, last year, who has got a lot of experience in the SEC. And I think they're, you know, I'm sure he would be one of the first to tell you, like, they need to be more invested in NIL and make sure they're at the top of the revenue share pile to retain some of the players that they do a good job and maybe attract some more good players that they do a pretty good job of developing there. But I think they are one of these programs that is just the world, the world of college football changed over the last 20 or 30 years, not even just the last five years, last 20 or 30 years. And now they have to figure out what is our place in that world. OK, next. Oh, well, we can't really go next batch of teams because we have to talk about Carolina. Yeah, we got to talk about North Carolina here. I'm going to let Stu start because Stu, of course, has been our resident Bill Belichick hater. Right. Wait, wait, time out. you say that but when when you said i held on six and seven i mean in hindsight i was actually a little optimistic uh for the first that is a good point that is a good point you've been pessimistic about the broader bill belichick experience but you you you like a lot of us didn't see it being this bad right so can it no longer be this bad what do we think what do we think that the signs of 2025, tell us about what might come in 2026. You know, the three of us all worked on that story. We did pretty about midway through the season when things were kind of at their low point and where one person after another, after another cited the same culprit, Mike Lombardi. And so what I would say is as long as he's still the one building the team, I don't think they're going to be better. um it's a very if you look like i'll give them the benefit of the doubt they got a late start clearly they didn't have any relationships anywhere in college in high school football and college football they couldn't do the signet thing and bring people with them they but the problem is stew i want to stop you there because you were right before um about lombardi they did have relationships it was the person who was paid 1.5 million dollars to be the gm squandered all that i cannot like the the reason why um some of us who thought belichick would be fine there were so wrong is because we vastly underestimated just how inept the gm was and so what all i was saying is okay we gave you a full year you're all set up you're all implemented what did you do it's another very underwhelming portal class like is billy edwards the former maryland and briefly Wisconsin quarterback going to come in and be the savior of UNC football? Probably not. You think they did upgrade probably the OC hire for all his personal faults? I was going to say, we have to mention Bobby Petrino. Bobby Petrino is a very good offensive mind. And I'm sure, you know, I don't know if like Travis Burgess, the freshman, incoming freshman who's from Georgia who got hurt late last year or early last year with a knee injury. I don't know if he eventually ends up as the guy. I mean, remember they pivoted at some point mid season be like oh yeah we're going all in on the high school development side and riding that course and we'll see if it works out for them um but i think it just comes back to all of this is like you know bill belichick can be the greatest coach in football if you are that inept on the talent acquisition part and have such bad evaluations or somebody who's involved with it and makes just really bad decisions. It's hard to overcome that in college football. It just really is. And you have you know like Mack Brown ended up leaving there after almost a decade They were never bad there They were very average at times and they were pretty good some other times but they were never bad Last year, they were really bad. I mean, UCF beat the crap out of them, you know, and it wasn't like a great UCF team. It didn't make a bowl game, right? And so it is. Their defense got better over like the second half of the season. Their offense was inept the whole time. their defense got better and they won a couple games but not gonna you know lavish it with praise all right i mean is there any is there any reason to think they're going to like stew you know i i thought they would win eight games just because i thought he was such a good coach and because again they had some players there they also had a really weak schedule too they would have a schedule really not next year you look at their schedule for next year no they got all the acc's best teams. So do we have any reason for optimism for this program? Not here. Let's, no, but let's say, let's say... Interim head coach Bobby Petrino, incoming. Okay, what would they have to do this year, I'm curious, for you to be like, if they go 6-6 and lose a bowl game, is that enough for you to be like, hey, maybe this could still work out? No, 6-7, no. We paid this guy $10 million a year to lead them to the promised land. He's got a, you're also paying the GM $1.5 million. That is an, that is an insane amount of money for the guy who's the worst at his job. He like, I don't know who the worst DB coaches in college football. I don't know who the worst, uh, offensive line coaches in college football. I think it's like a pretty easy guess. Who is the, who has been the most disappointing GM hire. So I think we're all in the same place on this. So I would bring up Bruce's favorite game, the percentage game. Give me your percentage chance. Belichick is still the coach a year from now. In 2027, going into the 2027 season. Right. Oh, like makes it to year three. 15%. I would say 30%. I'll split the difference and say 22 and a half percent. I mean, that's none of us have much confidence that he'll make it to your three. And not one word about Jordan, Jordan Hudson. OK, next and final batch of teams to round out our ACC wrap up season review, so to speak. We will start with who we going with here. I think it's OK. It's Cal at six and seven. finished the 2025 season at seven and six you guys were both a sell on Cal so you both miss Cal the the Bears actually ended up having a pretty good first season or excuse me second season in the ACC Wake Forest was a four and eight in 2024 change coaches Jake Dickard came in and really did about as good a job as almost any first year coach going nine and four got some schedule breaks But we all really thought, and you guys actually had them as a hold at four and eight. So you were both wrong. But I think almost everybody looked at Wake Forest and thought, that's a year zero. We're not even going to like hold it against Dickert if he has a bad year. And he ended up going nine and four. Stanford, three and nine in 2024, four and eight in 2025. You both had him as a hold. You both had that right. Really holding pattern was as good as you can expect with Frank Reich holding down the fort there before Andrew Luck installed his own head coach. Florida State, I have a feeling this is who we're going to talk about. Florida State, two and 10 in 2024, five and seven in 2025. So technically, as a buy, you're both right, because Florida State definitely got better in 2025 than they were, than it was in 2024. But boys, if a three-win improvement ever felt like less exciting and an actual improvement. It's Florida State in 2025, Stu. It's crazy that they started the year with this seemingly like, oh my gosh, they're back kind of win against Alabama. And then the next thing you know, like they're losing to Stanford. They're losing to some of the worst teams in the conference, going two and six in conference play. And now, I mean, I think they kept, Norvell, mostly because they didn't want to pay that huge buyout. Like, they flat out cannot afford to pay that huge buyout. But now, it's like becoming a self-fulfilling thing because everybody knows he's a lame duck, so nobody wants to go play there, or frankly, coach there. And so, I mean, it's highly possible they'll be even worse in 2026. I want to give Stu some credit here, Ralph. um i don't know what the tabulations is on this but there was two things in the acc where stew was on the right track he didn't get the right grade on it um first of all on north carolina he you know he smelled the vomit in the shopping bag in the trunk before anybody else i know did and the second one is on florida state because at some point i think i asked you guys because ralph was on the podcast where i was like would they be this or that and it was going to be like Stu was the one who was like hesitant to like step out. You said more, are they more likely to be a playoff team or a three and nine team? And you guys were shocked when I said more likely to be three and nine. Yeah. Obviously they weren't three and nine, but they were pretty, they weren't that far from that. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah. So, um, the Florida state piece, I want to go big picture on this, um, guys and I'll, I'll punt it to you, Ralph. Like, I think Mike Norvell is a really good coach. I think he has some good coaches on his staff. They got, and we did this story, I think Matt Baker and I did a year ago about how it imploded. And a lot of it was really bad talent evaluation. And they got really behind the sticks when it came to development because they, you know, this was the year they took DJU as their quarterback. I think their old GM, who's now, who Bob Chesney hired as the GM at UCLA. TLA. It just, some of those decisions ended up where they hit the years before they, they missed badly and it set them back. But beyond that, I think the question, and I wanted to ask you this on Ralph is like the economics and some of the struggles that we hear about with Florida state seem to be really undermining a lot of hope that they could compete at the level certainly Miami's at right now? I mean, what's, how does that reality play out in your eyes? Yeah, I, it's interesting also because Florida State pushed so hard to create a new revenue structure, revenue sharing structure within the ACC, sued the conference that ended up getting settled, but, you know, basically threatened to sue their way out of the conference. There will be ramifications to that a couple of years out. But it's interesting that the ACC created all these new revenue sharing changes to give teams, schools at the top, more revenue. And Florida State hasn't been able to capitalize on any of it, right? Miami just banked like $30 million. So now the changes Florida State pushed for have just pushed them well behind Miami. Like it's still Florida State. You think they can get out of this hole eventually because it's a great place to recruit and things and which is another problem i think norvell you know as much as we talk about the transfer portal with miami they've recruited well too they've high school recruited well that still has to be a base of a successful program in florida and norvell just never got any momentum there and you do wonder like they are essentially holding this year on Norvell to retrench the finances because they couldn't afford things. But do you also risk setting the program back even farther if you have another bad year and it becomes harder to get momentum? So I don't know if I answered your question there, Bruce, but it's it feels very bleak around Florida State, though I would say this. You know, the world is different now and things can change a little a little more quickly. Mike Norvell, I don't think Mike Norvell is going to be the one to pivot and change it, but maybe the next coach can come in and pull a signet and all of a sudden things flip. I think there's two other things that make it a little harder landscape. And I think you did a really good job articulating of the financial challenges of how they're getting squeezed. One, now Miami can sell, hey, we just played for the national title. And now all of a sudden it's like they have more momentum than they did at any point in a long time. The other thing is, I think the coach that Florida just hired is going to attract. He retained a bunch of guys that I think, you know, a lot of that. That was a big deal who he was able to keep really good young talent. I think he is going to be a more of a problem for Florida State and for Miami in the state, because I just think he is a much better recruiter. The wild card addition on this, I guess it's a third thing, is USF with Brian Hartline is going to be interesting, right? Because he has a lot of cachet and some swagger, and I could see him getting in on guys that maybe USF, even UCF, even in the Big 12, might not be pulling away. And he may be able to do that at UCF if he has enough resources behind him. All right, guys, we have a bunch of ACC-centric mailbag questions we're going to get to next. But before we wrap up this segment, The final score, yet again, everybody's just lingering around 500, as you guys did for the first two conferences for the Big Ten and the SEC. Bruce was 8-9. Stu was 9-8. You guys did okay. It's fine. It's okay. Actually, and I like this format. I really think next year I shouldn't also, I shouldn't play the game. I should just be the judge. But anyway, we're going to come back with some mailbag questions about the ACC right after this. Okay, let's get to the mailbag. They are ACC-centric questions, and we start with new ACC teams. Audible crew, love the pod. Thanks for all you do in keeping West Coast football in the limelight. We are a West Coast bias podcast, as you know, with two of our members here, owning homes out on the West Coast in California. My question is around the Bay Area schools, which is, of course, right in Stu's wheelhouse. It's been a rough start to ACC play for both Stanford and Cal. Certainly much more for Stanford than Cal. That's an editor's note by me. We've heard for years that both programs are committed to winning, with Andrew Luck now running football operations at Stanford, Ron Rivera stepping into a leadership role at Cal. Looking ahead over the next decade, which program do you think is better positioned for sustained success and why? Despite the narrative around wealthy alumni bases, We haven't yet seen that translate into consistent portal impact or splashy coaching hires. What, if anything, changes the equation that's from Landon Beatty? What do you think, Stu? I think. Can I start with the short term before I go to 10 years? Yeah, there is a lot of buzz around Cal right now this offseason. Our own Sam Kahn did his transfer portal class rankings, and Cal has a top 15 portal class. They have a, he was a freshman this past year, a quarterback who, there's just so much buzz around JKS. I don't try to pronounce his full name. You know, Tosh is off to a good start there. Ron Rivera is the one, you know, kind of building that team. I think there's almost no buzz around the beginning of the Tevita Pritchard era at Stanford. So right now it feels like, oh, Cal. But neither of those new coaches has coached a game yet. So we don't really know, right, who has the edge there. I just, having been here, look, I moved here kind of like that Jeff Tedford had already gone past his peak at Cal. And Stanford was at its absolute peak. and so it's always felt to me like Stanford has the higher ceiling because there's 15, 20 kids a year. And you live through the ceiling of Stanford too. Oh, I was here almost the whole run. And now the sport has changed. You talk about the sport changing around somebody. Every change that has happened to college football in the last five years has been to the detriment of Stanford, let's be honest. Transfer portal is no good for them. NIL is no good for them. They have made some adjustments. I think the advantage Stanford will always have is that, if nothing else, there are going to be 15 to 20, let's say, three to five star recruits a year who just want a Stanford degree. It doesn't matter if they're four and eight, who the coach is. If I can get into Stanford, I'm going to Stanford. And then you have to obviously hit on those guys. but I could be totally wrong I mean Taj Lupoi could be about to usher in the new golden era of Cal football when they had it going under Tedford I mean think about how many future NFL not just all pros but like Hall of Famers Marshawn Lynch, Deshaun Jackson right? Aaron Rodgers yeah so it felt like there was every year they had like a 1500 yard running back So like when they're going, they're going. There's no question about that. So I'm just really curious to see. I think we'll get a decent read on Cal this season. They have a lot of pieces in place. Stanford's going to be a big rebuilding job. Yeah. By the way, Stu, it's not JKS. Jaron Kayavi Sangapolitele. It's not that hard. Did you just Google that? No. I mean, we would talk about him enough on Saturdays to know. But it's like once you say it the first couple times. I would have gotten that almost right. I thought it was Saga Puitelli. No, it's like. Yeah. Okay. A lot of times. I think when you watch a game the announcers mostly just say Saga Puitelli JKS yeah Yeah or JKS Well this is the benefit of you being on TV You actually have to say these things us us writers we just have to be able to spell it um so yeah okay yeah i i interested too if at some point some very rich stanford alum steps in and sort of does the you know whatever um mark cuban i know he's probably gets too much credit for that or you know other programs that have these like singular figures uh code campbell at texas tech if some stanford alum steps in and says i want this to be better and i am willing to fund it to get better but again it's it's not as simple as that at stanford but in some ways maybe it is as simple as that in college football these days it's not that simple because um first of all a lot of the most affluent Stanford alums are not sports fans. Right. But also like politically, you could not get away with just being like, I'm going to throw all this money only at football because it's like, well, wait a minute, we produce the most Olympians. Like we need money for that. And the women's basketball team is a powerhouse. And so that a lot of people say that. And I just I can't see it quite playing out that way. All right. Bruce, why don't you take a stab at this next question from Tom Single in Atlanta, NC State alum. This season proved you don't need blue blood status to be a heavyweight. We saw Texas Tech buy their way into the conversation with massive NIL spending, while Indiana coached their way there with a home run higher. Looking at the ACC outside of Miami, what's the missing ingredient for everyone else? Is there a third pillar beyond just NIL and coaching that a school needs to crash the party? And if you had to place a bet on one or two sleepers in this conference to potentially make that jump next, who's your money on? my money is actually going to be on the program we talked about like 20 minutes ago and that would be virginia tech i think the biggest challenge james franklin knows what he's doing about building a program and recruiting i think the biggest challenge is going to be when frank beamer really had it rolling in blacksburg that area was an underrated hotbed of talent obviously michael vick was from there but you have a ton of other dudes who come from that hampton roads Virginia area and if you look back I think you know Michigan got in there pretty good I think they have like two of the four or five best players coming out of the state of Virginia are going to Michigan Georgia and South Carolina are in there you're not going to be able to beat everybody and and lock down the state and especially that part of it where it's so so so rich and fertile. But I think that is a big key. If you can do that and it takes winning. I mean, it's hard to do that and flip a switch. And all of a sudden now, you know, you had a program that was spinning its wheels and all of a sudden everybody, the kids who grew up for the last, you know, four years or five years, or in this case, probably seven or eight. It's been a minute since they've been very good. I think Franklin can change that. And I think there's a lot of upside. They remember they They committed a bunch of money in this past, like late in the fall. Like $250 million. Yeah. It's a big commitment. They have an awesome home environment. Like if you go to Blacksburg, it is as good a home stadium environment when it's rocking as any place I've been. You know, I would put that up. It's like LSU Tiger Stadium and Lane Stadium is not far behind when they're good. when they're really good. So to me, that will be the sleeper one I would watch for. I don't know if you guys, Ralph, if you feel like there's a different one that comes to mind. Yeah, I would just throw two more out there. I think SMU, because again, when it comes to investment, being in Texas, being able to recruit high school players, having a good feel for the portal and bounce back players, it seems like the elements are there for SMU to occasionally, I mean, they've already made the playoff to maybe reach a different level, have that breakthrough season. And I feel like Louisville has just been really good under Jeff Brom. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, I mean, I'll let you take it from here. But I think they, you know, in terms of like coaching your way to the top and being committed and having a good eye on the portal, seems like the elements are there with Louisville. Real quick, by the way, I should have had SMU in the list of football first schools earlier. I still forget sometimes they're in the ACC. Also fair. It's not even really about Jeff Brom. Louisville as a program for the last 20 years has been like the program that you're like, all the pieces are here if you can put it together, right? I mean, Petrino got it going the first time when they were in the Big East. He had a brief little run there with Lamar Jackson before it went to crap. Satterfield had like a couple of good seasons. And now, you know, Brom is kind of teetering around. You're in one of the best college sports markets in the country. Like when ESPN puts out their top markets, from top viewing markets, like Louisville is always in there. They have great facilities. They have a good stadium. And when the right coach is there, like they can win. Now, can they be Indiana? I mean, everybody, we're going to say that about everybody. Could they be there? Sure. Maybe for a year. they can be better than what they are they could be if they could get it going there I could see them being kind of like maybe not peak Dabo Clemson but like this is a team that every year we talk about as a contender to win the conference championship I think that's fair Alright this next question from Dean Sullivan I'm going to spin it to you Ralph isn't it about time for the ACC to put away the beer dye and remove the shoe lifts and return to its roots as a basketball power that also plays football. Can or would the ACC seed the U and FSU to the SEC, send Stanford, Cal, and SMU back west, and disown Notre Dame as ginger-haired stepchild? A conference with a lean dozen can compete on the gridiron while meeting out a few more dollars to return to its hardwood dominance And no more Cal Miami mid-February basketball matchups. What do you think of that, Ralph? So the problem with that is you'd be essentially writing your own death certificate. You just can't be a bad. I agree that the ACC needs to be more mindful of its basketball history. And it needs to cultivate more of its basketball history. And by the way, the ACC basketball is getting a little better this year. I've been looking at some of the bracket projections. You're talking about like six, seven teams, maybe even eight teams getting in. That's more like it. And there are still going to be some tumultuous times, I think, ahead for the ACC, realistically, considering the way the contracts are now structured and where teams might be able to move in 2030 to exit the conference. It's all very hard to predict, so I'm not going to predict doom and gloom, nor am I going to predict the ACC is going to have 20 more years to thrive. But we're definitely heading into some uncertain times with the ACC. But you can't just make football secondary. You just can't do it. You cannot willingly say we are going to be sort of a secondary football conference and emphasize basketball because that's just not the way it works these days. It's just you would be devastating your conference. You have to prioritize football while still, again, trying to cultivate basketball, Stu. There were, I mean, 20 years, this was all set in motion 20 years ago when there, you know, when John Swofford made the like really audacious move to steal Miami. That was the moment they went from basketball conference to football conference because he recognized even in 2003 that this was where it was headed. like that you are not going to remain a relevant power conference if you're not putting your eggs in football so now he didn't get the Miami he he bought he kind of what the Miami he picked up in the store ended up being a bit of a clunker when he brought it home the whole thing was god I love old realignment stories like they tried to can I indulge in this for just a minute I know we're pretty late already but like I know people in love realignment stuff you remember this was so old-fashioned. They, like, announced that they were going to consider Miami, no, Virginia Tech was a late ad, but Miami, Syracuse, BC. And so then they, like, arranged visits, like a delegation would come in and visit the campus. And, you know, in that time, it became, like, a whole political hotbed, and the governor of Virginia got Virginia Tech in, and whatever. So it was always clunky, let's be honest but yeah if they had if Miami had stayed peak Miami and Florida State like maybe the ACC would be the SEC right now you know you just you just never know but I don't I don't know I don't see that dynamic changing anytime soon yeah I think longing for the days of the of the old ACC centric excuse me basketball centric ACC it's great to dream on but I also think that that has the ship has simply sailed on that. Okay. I'm going to read this question. It's for myself and we'll be in and out of here. It's a, it's a bonus. It's buy, sell, hold scoring change. Gents, may I suggest an updated scoring system for buy, sell, hold? Seems like Bruce should get punished more for buying Texas than Stu did for holding Texas. But both just got an L and no, this is not some Ralph quick, quit picking on Stu email. How about this? You get one point for getting buy, sell, hold, right. Zero points if you miss by one rating, buying a holding team, et cetera. And minus one point if you miss by two ratings. So buying a sell team. Love the bit. Looking forward to 2026 version with the updated scoring. Brian in Austin. Brian, love it. Anything I can do to be more punitive when I rate this, the performances of these guys. here like this this podcast already probably goes too long the fact that you would be you would be like getting into um you know you're not bill connelly and doing some kind of numbers crunching here i've just i want i want a more precise scoring system for you guys to hold you accountable for your terrible takes all right folks uh who's getting the mailbag who's getting the now 16 trader joe's gift card guys it's interesting because there's somebody in the three who is kind of like an insider trader, but we'll try to be objective about it. Okay. All right, Bruce, who do you want to get the Trader Joe's gift card this week? My vote is going to go to Dean Sullivan. I, you know, look, I felt you leaning into that Ralph to smack him down about, come on, it's a football world. Haven't we learned this already? But I think Dean's point is steeped in the nostalgia of an era that we all grew up in, which was when ACC basketball was so elite because you had Dean Smith and Jim Valvano and obviously Coach K, Lefty Drizelle was at Maryland. You know, it was just a, it was just such a basketball heavy world. And I mean, look, I still watch a decent amount of basketball. So I'm looking and like, oh, you got some lottery picks both at North Carolina and Duke this year. It's going to be a loaded NBA draft. But again, I think it's a good kind of like little reminder of football makes the rules. Football runs football runs college sports. And here it is. So I appreciate Dean for teaming us up that way in the way he did. OK, so I'm unfortunately, I think I might make Stu's vote irrelevant here because I kind of like the nostalgia of that, too. But also, again, having to deal with the reality of the situation and why it's impossible to go back here. I think that worked out well because I was going to go with Eric Singel's dad. And I didn't want to be like the controversial, you know, the controversial one on that. You have to explain who that is, Stu. He's your editor. Yes. I know. I know who he is. But our listeners have to know who that is. college football editor who happens to be ralph's editor um his dad tom we appreciate you tom he's a very loyal listener he emails in a lot one of these weeks i'm sure he'll write like the so clearly best email that will will give him the trigger joe's gift card we're not discriminating against him we actually cannot make give the appearance of favor we cannot have you not watched something where it's like the contest you cannot be a relative of somebody like here's what we can do At the company offsite, you can buy his son a bunch of drinks, and that'll be that. How about that? But that's not, I mean, then how is he going to get his amazing Trader Joe's pita crackers? What good is that going to do? Can I do a quick, very quick shout out on the way out of town here? Montana's very, great Montana coach Bobby Hawk retired out of nowhere, right? on, what day is it? Thursday. It's Thursday. So it was yesterday, so it was Wednesday. But kind of went out on a dour note. Did you guys see this? So he announced his retirement because he said college football is not enjoyable anymore. Dealing with what college football has become is just not enjoyable as a head coach. I just haven't been enjoying it enough. I want to enjoy my career, my job. A lot of the head coach stuff in current day, Division I College Football is not enjoyable. And of course, you can guess what he then went off about. So that's not, I mean, I feel like we're starting to hear about that a lot more. They're just not usually so brazen about it. Anyway, he had a good run there. Yeah, so Frank. So next week we'll be doing the buy-sell hold for the Big 12, which means we need Big 12 questions. By the way, we got to throw Notre Dame in at some point, Ralph, because I'm sure we did a buy-sell hold on them. So maybe just randomly latch them onto the Big 12. So Big 12. I mean, they've been in a little bit of a fallout with the ACC, so we didn't want to put them with the ACC. You know, it's been a bit of rough couple months for the ACC. Big 12 emails, and if you want to throw in a Notre Dame email, we'll take that too. So send those questions to theaudiblepod at gmail.com. We'll see you next time.