Madeline Haydon: Finding Her Voice and Building Nutpods

Hi, I'm Brant Menswar and welcome to my show, Just a Moment. As a former world touring musician turned keynote speaker and author, I've experienced my share of life-altering moments that have both broken me and propelled me forward. How you leverage those moments or push through them will define your destiny. Each week on my show, I'll provide tools on how to maximize those moments, as well as interview some of the most successful entrepreneurs, entertainers, and athletes on how the power of a single moment change their life. Join me to learn how to change what's possible for your life. It'll take just a moment. Today's guest is Madeline Hayden, founder of Greengrass Foods and creator of Nutpods, the revolutionary dairy-free creamer. Her story is laced with tenacity through her upbringing as a child of refugees, to her journey to motherhood, and finally to the foundation of her company. Her story shows how sometimes a helping hand from others can assist in the making of your moment. This is her story. I'm Madeline Hayden, and this is my moment. My parents are refugees. I was born in Saigon, Vietnam, and then we settled into Washington. It was a family legend that my dad only had one day off that week. that he could go to find a house. And so that he was on a mission and he found a house for us that would fit six kids and his wife. And it was in a suburb in Washington. I went to public school, did a lot of the free recreational activities like biking and hiking and all the things that didn't cost a lot of money, but it was a good childhood. My parents actually were very successful in Vietnam. They worked for the South Vietnamese Army. And my dad worked as an interpreter. And my mom worked, I don't know what the military equivalent was, but she had about 200 people underneath her. And even though I remember her as this 60-year-old, like, true Rubik, stern but funny woman, I did see a picture of her in her 20s holding an Uzi gun, which I'm like, oh my gosh, is that my mom holding an Uzi gun? And so we had one of the very few houses in our village that had linoleum floors. And then you then transfer that to a new country that they never thought that they would live in. Six kids to feed. My dad was 34 at the time. And they taught me a lot of lessons because they did what they needed to do to feed their family. So even though they came from very high-paying, reputable jobs in society in Vietnam, my dad worked as a machinist, graveyard shift, because he couldn't master the language. And my mom was also working as a seamstress, sewing curtains during the day. And then my parents were two ships that passed through the night, but they at least tried to have one parent home with us kids. And on the weekends, they would clean office buildings as well just for additional income. So it was a necessary, hard life, but they managed to put us all through University of Washington, go Huskies. And so we have learned a lot of lessons about integrity and hard work and not complaining from the example of our parents. Madeline spent her early years figuring out how she fit into the world. Learning a new language and excelling in school occupied the forefront of her mind. However, her educational pursuits, while not necessarily the path her parents expected of her, was inspired by a formative moment in how she fit in to her family dynamic. I am the second youngest, and I'm the baby girl. But I'm the black sheep because everyone else. I was social. I was considered the flirt of my sisters because I think the youngest ones we get away with a lot. I grew up between my two brothers, so a lot of a tomboy. I played a lot of sports. Like a lot of people that are my age when we grew up, we had traditional parents. We're trying to fit into an American culture. We're trying to be two things at once. I struggled with English language at the beginning in my early elementary years. We didn't have ESL back then, so I was in special education because I could understand it, but I couldn't quite speak it fluently yet. We all have hardships along the way. I think we just, we learn how to handle the hardships that we have. And I think some of the hardships was just learning financially about being able to help our parents. I have two kids and I have no idea how they supported six. And I think growing up financially insecure, it just allowed me to understand about how I could help even in small, young ways. I remember sharing my paycheck from Blockbuster Video with my parents because my grandma needed a little bit of financial help. And so just reinforcing that we're all in this together. and even if I'm 14 years old, when I have a crisp $250 check from Blockbuster Video, I still was in a position to help contribute. I was academic because it was expected of me, but I wasn't as dutiful as my older sisters were. If you have Asian parents, you're either going into law business or medicine. And then I ended up being an English major, But they actually never realized the reason why I went into an English major. And it's because growing up, I saw the prejudice that they encountered because they had an accent, because they couldn't master the language. But there was this one crazy moment of us dropping off some donations at a nonprofit. And the sign said, no attendant on duty. But the attendant was there. It just happened to be like five o'clock. And so we pulled in and we were unloading. And so the attendant came over and said, can't you read English? It says that we're closed and new. And I said, we can read English. And it says no attendant on duty. And you were there. And this grown man retracted. And he said, I'm very sorry. And he bowed to my dad. And he said, thank you so much for your donation. And so I learned as this middle school kid, speaking to an adult grown man, that if you can speak without an accent, if you can express yourself, you have self-advocacy, you can stand up for yourself. And there was power in that. And so I ended up being an English major for that very reason. Madeline's 20s were a period of her life spent in full bloom. She grew to love her independence and discover who she was outside of the responsibilities of a hardworking daughter and a loyal sister. You know how there's that Trace Adkins song about how you're going to miss this? I loved it. I loved having my own apartment. I loved being able to decorate my own apartment. I was independent. I was exploring who I was. I was exploring living in the city, which was different than the suburb that I grew up with. I had friends. It was a great period in my life. Everyone was poor. We were all poor because we were all having our first job out of college and we were all $34,000, $36,000 a year. But it was a great time to learn. And I remember just thinking that I changed so much from when I graduated college to when I turned 30. And all of a sudden, I was an actual grown-up at 30 years old. Even though her 20s were a time of unparalleled independence, Madeline still holds deep, cherished value for the lessons she learned growing up from her parents. I didn't appreciate it until I was a parent myself. And so one of the things that they always drilled into us was that family is everything. And that was like a chopstick. You can break a chopstick easily, but you can't break a bundle. Three, four, five chopsticks is very difficult to break. And so my parents said, that's like you and your siblings. And so I always wanted to play with my friends. And my dad and mom were always like, you have your brothers and sisters to play with. I'm like, oh, I see these people all the time. But I find myself saying the same things to my kids, where it's like, you only have one sister. They're going to be with you your whole life. And so make them your good friend because friends are going to come and go. They might move away. Things happen, life changes, but your family will always be there for you. And when my girls are fighting, as girls do, I try and remind them. friends, even cousins. Like, we're all family, but you only have one sister. So be nice. Just be nice. For the love of God, be nice. As Madeline's adolescence came to a close, new responsibilities mingled with new desires. Now a wife and mother, she started to reflect on her upbringing, how a lively house and the importance of family instilled by her parents now fit into the narrative of her own life She wanted her daughter to have a sister someone she could rely on a built friend However Madeline struggles to expand her family would eventually lead her to start her business. I had followed my husband's career. He was an investment banker down to Orange County, California. And so I was taking a couple years off from my career. I had been inside sales for a medical device company selling external defibrillators. I was a supervisor for a regional blood center. I was taking a couple years off because I was an older mom and I was trying to have a second baby so that my first daughter, Emily, could have a sibling. But I had fertility issues. And so we first initially went through the whole, like, if it's meant to be, it'll happen. And then we did conceive naturally. And that was a wonderful surprise. It was like, if it's meant to be, it happened. And we were so excited. And then we miscarried as a lot of women have happened to them. And it just really hit home about, I don't think I want to be this passive about if it happens. And IVF seemed so expensive at the time. It was like 40 grand when we started back then. It seemed so insurmountable before we miscarried. But then after we miscarried, it's like a car. We would pay that much for a car. And if we really want to have a sibling for Emily, we should get a loan. That's what you get for a car. We should get a loan and do what we can to just give this a chance. And so I ended up going through IVF. It's hard to explain about all the emotionality that comes with effort of just trying to have the chance to add to your family. And I think when I started NUT pods, I was in this, I call it that rodent exercise wheel where I was just spinning. And it was just like injections and testing and did it work and the non-relation kits. and then being able to try all these things in the meantime, whether or not it's acupuncture or Chinese medicine or Reiki or let's try the paleo diet. I'm very goal-oriented. If you tell me what to do, I will do it. But in this case, I just could not will myself to the results that I wanted. And so I think when I started Nutpods, I was actually coming out of this grief period of just miscarrying and feeling so dejected and tired of this emotional rollercoaster of all the things that you have to do in order to have a chance of a baby. And so I just told my husband, I said, I need a break. And at this time, we had talked about the concept about nut pods and about how, man, powdered non-dairy creamers just don't do the job. And then everything else was processed. with artificial this and that. And I just wanted to be able to have something in my coffee that was rich and creamy. And it was such a small thing. But then I was thinking, coffee is really big. 60% of people take creamers in their coffee. And if you're lactose intolerant like me, or if you're vegan, or if you just don't want to have dairy, we're all stuck with these processed non-dairy options. And I wanted to have a better-for-you option and thought, one day, one kid or two kids, I'm going to go into Whole Foods and I'm probably going to find a product like Nutpods. And I think I would just regret not going for it. And so in my mind, I was thinking, keep focused, laser focused on trying to have another baby or just try and do something else. And so not knowing the abysmal failure rates of food startups, which are like, 80% fold within the first two years. I just went for it. I started with a Kickstarter campaign because my husband, as an investment banker, so handy to have in so many ways, but in some ways, not the most cheeriest cheerleader for you. As a startup, I just said, let's do a Kickstarter campaign and it will allow me to find out if I really am just picky, trying to find a healthier non-dairy creamer for you. And that's how NetPod started. It's out of a sad period where I just needed to have something else to strive for. Madeline's moment came by taking risks and relying on friends and strangers. She had her concept, her solution to a problem that could bridge a gap in the market. Now, all she needed was funding. So Kickstarter was just getting mainstream in 2013. and a friend of mine had also done a successful Kickstarter campaign and said, I think you should do it. And this is that time period of forks over knives. And people were learning more about this whole concept of plant-based. Not vegan. You still could wear leather shoes, but plant-based for nutrition. And so I planned this out. It's that moment where everything just fell together. I had a photography and a musician neighbor in the apartment building that we were living in. She did that whole Kickstarter campaign on a Nikon camera. And then with a microphone boomstick because she was a musician. She knew about all the rentals that you could do. And I had another neighbor in our apartment complex that would do my hair and my makeup. We set out to do $30,000 because I had Googled online about how much it costs to do commercial formulation. And somewhere, some person said about $10,000. And I was thinking, okay, I'm going to triple it because I'm going to double it for just in case formulation. It's like construction, right? Costs twice as much and takes twice as long. And I'll just pad a little bit for all the backer rewards. And so $30,000 should do it. I didn't realize that's one crack at doing commercial formulation with ingredients and packaging. And it came and went in a hurry. And it actually took two years of many failed trials. But I think at that point, I had gotten a little used to, like, big lawyers in testing from all my IVF. That it didn't break me as much as it could have broken other people after a daunting two years of trying to have a commercial formula. for something where it was just, it seemed impossible at the time. Madeline, welcome to Just a Moment. Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be here. Full disclosure here, Madeline and I have hit it off so well that we have had to reschedule because we end up talking to each other until there's no time left. And I just, I'm fascinated by your journey, all the accolades you've been given, all the awards you've won, all these things. First, let me say this. They are nothing compared to the human that you actually are. One of the most genuine kind, all of the things you want from a successful entrepreneur, right? Like it's one of those, don't be too excited to meet your heroes because you often are disappointed. But in this case, gosh, so much better than a lot of the people I've been able to meet who have had incredible success and just a little difficult to deal with. Honest to God, just purest heart. I just love it. I love just talking to you. So let's talk about a couple of things here because there are several things in your story that I think really matter and maybe don't get spoken about all too much. So let's talk about your doing this Kickstarter campaign. One of the things that you mentioned, but I love this, is the community you had around you that enabled you to do what you needed to do. And I think this is something that in the digital age, a lot of the younger generation miss what it's like to have a supportive community in person, not online, not over a chat or a text chain, but somebody that you can knock on their door and say, hey, I know that you've got this skill. Can you come and help me? And hey, can you just hold my kid here for a few minutes while I do this filming? Talk about the importance of community when you are trying to do something so daunting. I have said this many times that you need a village to raise a child. You absolutely need a village to raise a company and a brand. It just does not happen without a multitude of people supporting you in various individual ways. And some of them are just like they're there at the right moment at the right time to help you out. Some of it is just encouragement about a lot of people have ideas, brands, but only a select few of us are crazy enough to go through with that. And so being able to find people that can help you along the way. And when you ask all the people when they came alongside they weren necessarily even into it for the concept of nut pods but they wanted to help me go for something that I really wanted to try and do I had friends that one was a makeup artist and she would do my hair and my makeup because when you're a new mom and you're doing a video for a Kickstarter, you just want to put a little bit put together. Or when I needed a little bit of help, meeting with potential investors. and so she was helpful in having child care and encouragement and then she also knew about social media and I also had a neighbor who was this accomplished musician and photographer and she ended up doing my kickster but being able to have all these people help me and I think one of the things that I learned from that and I try and emulate was that when you're starting out you just need a lot of help and encouragement. And so I try and do that for people that have the bravery to go after their dream and their concept. As much as we tell ourselves and our kids, you put yourself out there, even as a grown adult, you are facing rejection. You're facing someone saying, well, that's a stupid thing. Or, oh, do you know the odds? They're daunting. And so being able to just whisper, why not you? And what if it works? How amazing would that be? So I want to talk about this because I think that in the world that we live in today of give me 15 minutes and I'll teach you how to make a million dollars on TikTok. Let me show you the shortcut to being an Amazon affiliate. Let me do this drop shipping thing. Let me TikTok shop this and I made $30,000 last month and everybody's chasing the dream of this short-term thing that you can actually make money. But coming from the music business, I'll tell you what we often find. When we find bands that maybe aren't as talented as they think they are, and yet they reach this level of success, which is always more successful than you. And then you're like, it must have been, whose uncle worked at a record label? You're looking for that. What was the shortcut? What was that connection that pulled up lack of talent to success? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs face this a lot, right? So like for you, someone who glances at your career and goes, oh, nut pods. Yeah. Oh, her husband was an investment banker. Obviously he just stroked a check and she all of a sudden is successful. Now we know that's a load of BS, but I want to talk about the grit and perseverance and all of the stuff that is the reality of two years of failing after you had a successful idea of what could be. So let's just put to rest all these people who want to just immediately downplay how incredibly difficult it actually was for you to reach this level of success. I feel like we have the Princess Bride story where it's like there's sword fighting, there's R-O-U-S-T-E-S, there's love stories, a little bit of kissing Fred Savage. I was going to say, my wife is going to now just demand that I say as you wish to everything she says from this point. To everything. Peter Wesley. So I will tell you what is not widely known, but is absolutely dispelling. The truth. When we started Nupputz, we had filed for bankruptcy. My husband, as an investment banker, had been a real estate investor and had a portfolio of homes. And then the bubble burst and we were underwater. And so you have to understand, growing up financially insecure, we were on food stamps. I had a closet that was communal with my sisters. That meant we didn't have our own shoes. We wore the shoes that was all available because we all happened to be about the same size. Like financial insecurity was one of the scariest things for me. I even told my husband when I dated him, I don't think I can date someone who had bad credit because it just brings up so much issues for my parents. And bless them. But they raised us on credit, which meant they had bad credit after six kids. It was really hard for me. And I got roped into his bankruptcy because the home that we moved into after we got married, he said, I want you to feel like wonderful husband he is, that this is your home too. And we'll go ahead and refinance it and we'll get your name on there. Because of his good heartedness in wanting me to have my name on my very first home, that got roped into the bankruptcy, which meant I got roped into the bankruptcy. Do you know how hard it is to start a business when you have a bankruptcy? You cannot get any credit cards. So all of the people that talk about maxed out credit cards, I had to start with those green dot prepaid credit cards. raising money eventually meant that I had to disclose that as well. You should totally invest in me. And by the way, I want to also disclose that I have a bankruptcy. And these are the situations around the bankruptcy. So no, my husband did not just write a check. And I didn't have a Rolodex showing my age right there of people to invest. And my angel investors at the very beginning were people who were not accredited, people who absolutely would hurt them if I lost their money. I have one of my sisters and she put like a cash advance. Do you know the interest rates on those cash advance on those credit cards? And it's because she wanted to support me in really going for my dream. And I know it sounds so, huh, dream of non-dairy creamer. No, it wasn't based out of the hustle culture of wanting to make a million dollars. I didn't even know how lucrative or how much money was tied into food. I just wanted to create a product that would help myself, my mom and my grandmother, who both were deceased at the time I started Nutpods that had diabetes, people who were paleo, people who were vegan. We all wanted better options, but it didn't exist in the marketplace. And so I just wanted to create an option that would help people. And if I had done this just for my own sake, I don't think I would have stuck with it because there's so many opportunities to quit along the way. There's so many no's. There's so many. We can't get the commercial formulations to stick. I couldn't raise money to save my life because as a first time founder, new to the industry, never been a CEO before coming from blood banking. I was like a blind three-legged dog. Nobody wanted to invest in me. That was institutional capital at first, but there are blessings along the way. There are blessings that I was an older entrepreneur and I was 40. That meant I had a formed identity that helped me when I exited my company and being able to have that underdog identity. It helped me about being able to strive and work towards goals, not quite getting there, but working towards them, working to improve my English, working to get good grades, working to learn about thyrifsters and capacitors and that first job right out of college selling electronic components, which I had no idea. It taught me I could learn things that were foreign to me. It taught me that I could learn about business no matter what I was doing, blood banking or electronic components. And those things helped shape me because I had experience as a worker to know what kind of companies I would have wanted to work for. And it allowed me to create a company. A lot of entrepreneurs, we start and we think, oh, we just have to create this great product. but really you're creating three things at once you're creating a product that serves a market gap for sure but you're also creating a brand that hopefully will have a defensive moat when competition comes and then lastly you're creating a company that can attract the talent develop the talent and keep the talent retention and so those are all things that an entrepreneur has to create pretty much simultaneously. And a lot of people don't realize that I certainly didn't. Gosh, it's true. I think that's why you see so many entrepreneurs fail or quit or give up because they focus on what I would say is probably the first two, right? They focus on building a product or a service, and then they focus on the brand. And to them, a lot of them, it means a logo. And you think about what it looks like, not thinking about the weight of a brand or what people think about when they think about your organization and that sort of stuff. But a lot of them don't think about how important it is to surround yourself with the right people that are gifted in the areas that you aren't so that you can focus where you are not just competent, but passionate about, but also allow other people to do the same in their respective verticals to be able to build the organization as strong as you possibly can from the ground up. I think a leader is best judged by the team that they build. Yeah. Because it reveals a lot And so being able to build teams and I think it really the mark of someone who is secure enough to say I really good at this and I am terrible at this I just need to find someone that really good at this But here the catch The catch is that you have to let them shine and you have to get out of their way And that means being able to be humble to say I don know about retail So you going to know so much more about retail And it's hard because you feel like, do I even know enough to know if they're doing a good job? Like, how do I know that? And it's one of the things you tell your team. If you don't find a team that can handle the business, you can never be promoted. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right. So let's talk about a moment you wish you could revisit. And we had a chance to chat a little bit about before this, but I think this really leads into this conversation does to you talking about being a CEO for the first time. I love that. And it's actually one of the things that I'm passionate about talking about when I do some public speaking, especially at women leadership conferences. And it's about acknowledging in ways where there are differences with society and how women are seen. And it's not meant to be in a complaining way. It's meant to acknowledge that there are differences. So an example of that is I remember my mother-in-law was somewhere on a business trip, probably at some retailer or a conference or a trade show, and asking about if I'm going to have time to work on my daughter's little poster board project. And I said, I'm probably going to try, but I'm not home until Sunday. Jeff is home and have you talk to him? And she just did the whole thing. He is, but I just think it needs a mother's touch. which made me feel like mom guilt that I'm not there for her fifth grade poster board. It's the expectation that we have to do all things. We have to do all things. We have to be height, weight, proportionate. We have to be attractive. We have to be fearless. We have to be volunteering with homemade things for the school because God forbid we actually buy store-bought. And being able to talk about how we can succeed. and one of the things is about how professional we come across and because it was my first time being a ceo because i was in the industry because i had such a hard time feeling like i fit in with other ceos i didn't come from this industry i came from blood banking which people were always like ew and i was hypersensitive to how i came across and so whenever i had an opportunity and i had wonderful opportunities brand. I mean, for humble, non-dairy creamer brand, we have won like Amazon Small Business of the Year, Inc. 5000, Entrepreneur of the Year, Inc. Female Founder, like many awards. I did not take my kids to any of that. They didn't get to see me in my element. They didn't get to have any context to what I did when I wasn't with them. And so even when we had really exciting retailer visits like the first time you go to Target headquarters and I was just thinking I would have loved to bring my kids here but it's just viewed differently it is the way that it is if you bring your daughter to Target headquarters it's wow what a family man I love how he's being a role model for his daughter when I bring my daughter in tow it's huh couldn't she figure out childcare, this doesn't quite seem professional. So, you know, same kid, same iPad sitting in a corner, but your daughter is like somehow being prepped for success. And then my daughter's, you got dragged out of school. It's cool. And I wish now that I'm out of the day to day with Nutpods and I am speaking, I am on boards, I am doing things like entrepreneur of the year, judging, but I missed that whole chapter where they could have seen me in my element. And so now I'm taking them a little bit belatedly, but I missed it. I missed it with them. So I'm hoping to talk to other female leaders and be able to say, take your kid out of school, let them see you, and they will observe and you're shaping them in all the ways that a man would be doing the same thing. Most of the time I have felt the outsider and whether or not that's being like the only Asian kid in the area that I was living in or whether or not it's being the only female. Get used to feeling uncomfortable because that's how you make change for yourself and that's how you make change for other people. And I have continued to be aware of when I feel a little bit like just outside of my lane, that doesn't stop me from going into a production floor and in a male dominated area like food manufacturing. That doesn't stop me from doing what I need to do when I'm pitching to a panel of male investors. And so understand that it's that saying where it's like growth comes at the end of your comfort zone, but you have to push through these things. And all these obstacles that are there, let them stop other people, but don't let them stop you. and lean into it, acknowledge that you're not feeling comfortable. But I'd like to think, even though I'm not always comfortable on stage, by sharing my story, by being representative, by being in places where other women, other people in the audience, other people of color can say, okay, maybe Madeline did it and maybe I can do it too. And then I'm making space for them to follow. It's that whole Tim McGraw song, you know, about being humble and kind. You want to reach a hand back for the next person in line. Because it's not just meant for me to be able to reach a level of success and then go off and lead a happy life. That's not fulfilling for me. What's fulfilling for me is being able to know that I'm making it better. So don't let the narrative that we tell ourselves about how we're not going to be perceived as a leader or be perceived as professional stop you from doing the things that you want to and should do for your kids. Yeah. Listen, let me be the first to say that your daughters have to be incredibly proud. Oh, come on. We have teenagers. They're so hard to impress. They will someday realize that, you know, my wife and I talk about this a lot in her previous marriage and same with mine in my previous marriage. It was, yeah, you're the main breadwinner and you got to make choices. Do you want to pay the bills? Do you want to finish the poster boards? Do you want to do these things? We look back with some regret. We look back with some, you know, it would have been nice if I would have maybe been home a little bit more or for me being out on tour for weeks at a time, because the only time I was making money is when I was on stage playing music. Otherwise, the bills aren't getting paid. It was tough, but it is definitely the double standard for sure. and I've heard horror stories from my wife of just sometimes being the only woman in the room, especially in a male-dominated industry. And then when you climb the ranks of executive leadership, you're just getting into rarefied air and it's worse and worse as you continue to go up. I hear it. I hear you. But please know, anyone that does not see you for the amazing human that you are needs their frigging head check at this point. Well, as a funny story, You remember that poster word that my mother-in-law called? Yes. So in fifth grade for Washington Fair, you can pick either like a notable Washingtonian or Washington business. It can be like Starbucks or it can be like Boeing or Microsoft. I'm like, Emily, I have a great Washington company that you can focus on. What do you think about Nutpod? He's like, mom, nobody cares about our small family business. I'm like, we're nationwide, but it's okay. So trust me, I'm with you. I don't know if my sons know that I have ever released an album. I'm pretty big in Romania. I don't know if you know that or not. I've got checks from BMI that says three people listen to my music in Romania. Listen, I cannot thank you enough for joining us. If people want to continue to follow your journey, what's the best way for them to do that? They can always follow me on LinkedIn by choice. I am not very active on social media, but they can follow me on LinkedIn. Usually I'll talk about where I'm going to be speaking and then also what I'm doing post-Nutpod life. And I'm super easy to find as well. I'm still on the board at Nutpods, so I'm at madelineatnutpods.com. Thank you so much for sharing your moment with us here on Just a Moment. Thank you, Brand. I'm honored. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Just a Moment. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and tell a friend or two about it to help spread the word so everyone can find a moment that inspires them. Don't forget to leave us a review and check us out on the web at justamomentpodcast.com. Just a Moment is produced by Natalie Von Rose and Brent Menswar. For more inspiring shows like this, visit surroundpodcasts.com.