Find Your Why: How Adversity Shapes Success and Purpose from Kevin Sinfield

People will laugh at this but I don't like running. I don't like running. I don't like running. I'm not. You started running and just... Yes, running. To be a champion, you have to be a champion at home first. And basically, big applause. Through a tragedy, I found out what my coach was wearing. It was massively inspired. It made me realise exactly why I was supposed to be here, which is trying to help and support. The M&D community, sometimes we have to have a lot of challenges in our lives that we don't necessarily want. People want to say... What's your definition of success? I think success in life is best to know I'm getting the best out of yourself. Whatever line of work you're in, whether it's sport, business... ...like, how do you keep improving getting better? So that the comes of point where you reach... ...you max out your potential. Yeah. Yeah. Was it always that way for you? Or did it change over time or...? It probably changed, I think, in my early years. So, at a formative years, I think, certainly being in... ...coming from sport, I think, success is built around the draw for you, right? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Well, you've got to win every weekend. You've got to... That's a big part of it at that point. I think a challenge for a lot of people is they don't have a competitor every weekend. You know, life is just a continual thing. When you... Let's go back to sporting days. What do you think sports taught you about life and about... ...how to get to where you want to be and be your best? I feel like my playing career gave me a cross call saying... ...the best in the worst that life can throw you. And the best in the worst, yeah? Yeah, and I felt like it was massively condensed... ...into a period where I was playing professional sport... ...and I actually... ...that period set me up for sports playing and whatever that looks like. So, you know, I've been through some really, really difficult moments... ...which live thralls that year... ...when you're in all sorts of different work and family... ...and friends fill out, you know, experience from huge laws... ...from losing finals... ...like you're picking games, being drop for games... ...being injured and dealing with that... ...and then also the great fun side of it, which is... ...winning trophies. Those moments where you're in dressing rooms after a big win... ...when it's just the guys who have played a part... ...like the inner sanctum and they're there together... ...and everybody understands the journey you've been on. How hard it's been, but everybody's tipped in... ...and done everything they can... ...and you find yourself with a special group of people... ...who have been able to do something... ...while the eyeballs have been on them and under immense pressure. So, yeah, I feel like... ...Rugby gave me a crash course... ...into the best in the worst. And then... ...what I've tried to do is harness those lessons... ...and use them in... ...what can I next. Yeah. I think that one of the great things I notice is... ...how much you draw on purpose... ...and how well you help people understand what purpose is. So, is that something that just evolved over time for you? Because I know as we grow as men, people... ...we sort of learn to lean on certain areas... ...and purposes become a really big thing for you. Because... ...I mean... ...in some ways... ...I mean, it's... ...it was awful, but in some ways... ...you got given a purpose that... ...you know, and it just... ...it was put there for you. Do you feel a little bit lucky from that? I mean, it was an awful, but... ...it's a little bit lucky in that way, I guess. Yeah, I feel... ...robbed top in many things... ...and he inspired me in so many different ways. When you play professional sport... ...and we all understand that... ...it's for a very short period of time... ...but you have a great deal of purpose... ...and meaning in whatever day or lots I can... ...the competition every other week. Every weekend. You know exactly what you're structuring. You schedule, and it's all put together. Then you suddenly... ...when he's playing, and if you look here... ...you get to mid-thirties like I were. And then life starts again. So suddenly... ...there's a void because... ...there's a competition's not there every weekend. Your identity changes... ...and now you get a new purpose... ...and you're not quite sure what that looks like... ...or what it feels or what it should be. And I suppose you try and find your way through... ...what the next few years looked like. Through a tragedy... ...I found out what my purpose was. It was massively inspired... ...through Rob's fight and his courage... ...but it made me realise exactly... ...why I was supposed to be here... ...which is to try and help and support. The M&D community... ...and then also... ...and a massive bearing on the career decisions I made. Yeah. I wanted to take some risk... ...and be uncomfortable... ...and be vulnerable... ...I felt that good things... ...came through some of the decisions I made... ...around supporting Rob when... ...I took some risk and I'm vulnerable... ...and I thought, well, I wonder if I can use this... ...more in my day-to-day life and the work that I do. And you know, thankfully I find myself in a place where... ...I feel like I've got a decent balance... ...but also, great day of the purpose and challenge still in my life. I don't want it easy. Yeah. Yeah. And clearly, I don't want it too hard either. But... But... We all know... ...you have to go through some difficult moments... ...some so hard moments to grow. So, DRAM, I'm also aware... ...I might not want it hard because... ...humanity tells us why would we choose to put ourselves... ...through pain and sacrifice and hurt. But that's the... ...what I've found is... ...the more I put myself there... ...the more fulfilling it is. Yeah, I draw a lot of parallels to... ...I've spoken with a lot of sports people over time... ...and when they finish their career and go and find that second career... ...they're doing what most people have to do when they're in their 20s. You know, like when they're... ...when they're coming out of school and finding a career... ...is almost like a lot of what a sports people have to do. You got to do that, though, more as a grown man. Like, you'd already had experience and had some level of wealth and success... ...and that sort of thing. What advice would you have for someone for... ...trying to find their way and their purpose in the world? Like, trying to... ...because a lot of people are still... ...I don't know what my purpose is and... ...and yeah, what's your... Yeah, and that's why I feel very fortunate... ...because a lot of people don't even know... ...even when they're on the deathbed and in the dying moments... ...they don't know either where. Yeah. So... ...it all comes from what you're passionate about. There must be something that grabs you. There's something that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning. There's... ...there's got to be something that puts a smile on your face. What is it? Work out what that is and then can you... ...can you form a career out of it? And I'll give you an example because... ...this sounds all really simple and easy but... ...I've found... ...I never wanted to coach, right? I wanted to be a sport administrator. So I did two degrees... ...and I thought I'm really prepared to do it. I don't want to coach. I don't want to be on the grass. But I just said through Rob's journey... ...I realised that I got so much back from trying to help and support. Now, my experience was in rugby. So, how can I best use my experience in rugby... ...to help and support and challenge and work with others? The best way is to coach, to get on the grass. So that's how I was able to go. That's the direction I went ahead in. I didn't plan for this at all. It found me. However... I love working with young guys. I think their enthusiasm and energy... ...and in particular, the guys I work with now... ...just want to be better every single day. And when you're getting into... ...I mean, I'm in my mood for it now. But to still be around people who... ...who will like that... ...it rubs off on you. It's massively inspiring. Yeah, I mean, one of the great things of leadership... ...is that you do get to help mold. Another great coach, I asked Darren Cahill, tennis coach... ...and he said, my job's not to create a better tennis player... ...and jobs to create a better person... ...and a better tennis player. You know what I mean? I think that's one of the great things that you do... ...is you mold those young men into great men. You know? Well, we try. Dan. We try. We try. It's hard, it's hard. It's hard. And I think we understand that actually... ...we're all in the people business. It's just the fact we have a rugby ball... ...at the heart of what we do. So... ...a lot of the values and behaviors I learned as a rugby player... ...I'm not on about technical, technical, or skill-based stuff. Talk about how you deal with people. Yeah. It's very real in... ...or in normal world. Yeah, and the great thing about professional sport... ...is you have a lot of pressure... ...and you put under that on a weekly basis. And so... ...it brings out the best and the worst in people very fast. So, how do you help people... ...like, let's say we're... ...a leader of a business who's listening to us today... ...what are some of the key things we can do... ...to bring out the best in our people? Listen... ...I always start with that. Listen and care about... ...the people you work with. Because if they're trussured... ...and they understand you care about them... ...and that isn't words that's got to be... ...you've got to walk the walk as well as talk it. But I think the understand... ...you care about them... ...the loyalty... ...you will get back, the support you will get back... ...would just be unbelievable. Just... And... ...they have been fortunate because they've been in dressing rooms all their life. I think... ...I'm really passionate about rugby and... ...and that's both codes of rugby. Because I've seen the power of what the dressing room does... ...and... ...the beauty of the values and standards and behaviours... ...and morals that come from a rugby dressing room... ...and for our young people... ...for men and women... ...to have those experiences. And... ...and by yesterday, no way, I'm because... ...I... ...I think rugby does things for people... ...that a lot of other team sports. Don't... ...because trust is honesty and yeah, you've got that in all sports... ...you've got the physical nature of it. But there's something magical about a rugby dressing room... ...and that says... ...when we finish playing... ...we all respect each other... ...and the opposition and the referee... ...and when we finish playing as in... ...we retire or... ...tams up... ...we still capture each other. Yeah. And... ...there's not many other team sports that... ...that... ...do it quite like rugby does. So I'll feel particularly blessed and... ...and when you think about that in a business sense... ...how can you create a business where... ...this care, the support... ...there's... ...course as challenge... ...there has to be an element of challenge. There has to be that right... ...you know, if it's not challenging enough... ...it's warm and fluffy and... ...you don't... ...when you don't succeed... ...you don't get the... ...profit margins you should. Yeah. But if it's too extreme, too challenging... ...then you burn people out. So... ...was a sweet spot for your business. How do you care enough... ...and have enough... ...challenge and... ...inspiration for it... ...to keep growing and improving? Yeah. So I want to go back to the whole purpose idea... ...bringing the purpose back to business. And, you know, in sport... ...you've got that every week. You know your purpose sort of thing. You've got to win every week. How do we get that... ...how would you advise a business owner... ...to bring that to their business? Like, how can we make it... ...like, it's like every week is a game almost? Yeah, it's funny. And this is the big difference between... ...sport and business I would say. So, in sport, you need competition. Yeah. Because without competition, I'd be like, ...to go to pay and come and watch one team... ...where I'm here. Broadcasting. Like, it doesn't work. But in business... ...there's an argument to say, actually, you don't want any competition. Yeah. You want to be... ...you want to monopolize... ...and smash it so... ...I understand all that. But, yeah, actually, how... ...a business goes about... ...career in that competition. And the best... ...example I can give you is... ...all my playing career... ...I competed within a dressing room... ...to improve myself... ...but also every week... ...every weekend... ...against another team. Now that's gone for me. I'm not in a dressing room anymore... ...and I'm not playing against the team every weekend. However, I still compete. I compete with myself. So how can we create... ...that competition internally... ...where we just want to keep getting better and improve... ...adversingled there? And that starts from... ...whatever's at the top. The person at the top... ...sets a really high standard... ...and... ...is really driven on... ...succeeded... ...and winning. I say, winning the right way. Winning proper, which means... ...integrating, looking after people, caring for people. If you have that, I think you can create that competition... ...in its most organic... ...funware. Yeah. Marathons. People might say, Oh my God, you're crazy. I'm sure people have said that too. Free. My wife says it to me a lot. How was that... ...like, how did you choose that as the expression... ...of how you were going to show the world? Again, I found it... ...people will laugh at this, but I don't like running. I don't like running. I don't like running. Right? I mean, you started running and just... Yes. Running. I don't like running. I'm asmatic. I'm... ...I hated cross-country running at school. But when I finished playing and talked about that void... ...I couldn't create the competition every weekend. I just couldn't find anything that... ...but running helped me... ...deal with some of that. Because I found... ...if I run hard enough... ...alonging off on a weekend... ...my urge to play rugby would go because I was tired. And I found that quite therapeutic. So... ...although I drew it... I didn't know I never realized that... ...that it would be a therapeutic thing. That's a really cool way to look at it. Actually, and... ...during the runs when I'm out... ...I don't enjoy it. Right? I like everybody else. I've got the same battle going on in here, which is... ...why are you doing this? Just stop. Just walk. Go home. Put your feet up. I have all that. Yeah. But it's whether you choose to listen to it. And... Thankfully, I've finished playing a Manizra OK. And some of the other giants work... ...like this still should. So... ...I've found... ...we probably got really fortunate... ...with... ...we got a really sweet... ...spot of a window when we did our first challenge. Because... ...COVID was around... ...it was only... ...signed off because we run it like it was a professional sports team. We have very little charity sporting events going on. Fans were allowed in stadiums. The vast majority of the country have been on furlough and I've lost spare money. And suddenly the BBC breadth of support does. And... ...then it... ...and suddenly we got a lot of momentum from that first one. Yeah. As a run-out question, do you run with sound in your ears or do you run... ...so you are literally running just with your thoughts your whole time? Yes. Hardcore. Cloudcore totally. I know every training I would put music on or something... ...a book to listen to or a podcast to listen to. Because like... ...you're right. When it is just you and that. And then I now swim a lot. And the swimming is... ...like running without sound. It's like you're just your thoughts, do it. Can't you get some waterproof... ...there are now ones you put on the cheekbones and you can listen to things and stuff. But I find that... ...I do like the therapeutic nature. It's just me and my thoughts. But I like the fact that you turned running into your competition sort of thing. I do like that you found a way to be competitive with your own time, with your own self. And then also with others obviously. Do you know with that... ...there's a real fine line between obsession and passion. And what I was concerned with when I started running was actually... ...how does the competition play out now? Because if suddenly competition takes over and this becomes an obsession... ...then I'm disappearing for hours on end when I need to have some fun with time. So I'll keep it the competition. How am I stopping off so that it can still be a real passion? I think I've found a way of being able to do that. Whereas I can run a marathon. I am for a specific time. And it'd be really easy to go, no, I'm going to push that. I want to get quicker and quicker and quicker. But I've found to be able to be comfortable. Comfortable enough because running marathon isn't comfortable. Sort of a sweet spot where I can go about my work and do the business and have enough fun with time... ...without being an obsession and losing all that. Yeah. Yeah, well. Others might argue with the fact seven in seven is possibly a little bit excessive. Was that a decision by the way? Because I know my wife once almost signed up for the seven marathons in seven days on seven contours. And she was very serious at one point about doing that. They got a foot injury and it was like, hang it, you know, that's not going to be a thing. How did you make that decision with doing seven in seven? Well, the fact that Rob played number seven, it was all built around that. Now, we've Robert have been number 38. I've been in a very difficult spot. And I thought, you know, because how we measure time, thought a week sounds seven days is a good number and sort of was all burst around that number. And it fit the first time, the first one we did. Then we needed just over 70 grand. We were going to start on the first of December, finish on the seventh. We wanted to start seven in the morning every day. Just the number seven fit and it's stuck with our team and what we do because it makes you a Rob is still front and center. I'm ever along this. Let's play as out. Rob will always be the reason why. Yeah. So, average person, how do we convince them to go for it? Most dreams don't die through failure. They die through never doing it. Never even writing it down sort of thing. If someone listening here was going, you know what, I've gone all these dreams. How do we help them get over that inertia and actually, yeah, write them down, make a plan, go do something with it. What's your thoughts on that? I think every marathon starts with the first step. So, when we look at things in our lives at times, they seem massive, they seem big, they seem gigantic. That why would we undertake this massive thing that could take years and years and years? Or, what would say is, I'll do you break that down? How do you chunk it into much smaller sections? How do you make it so that you can get your head round the next three hours, the next day, the next week? And before you know it by putting these bits together, suddenly you get closer and closer to this thing. That's so big. That's what I'd encourage. Break it down. Find ways of chunking sections of it. And I would also always say to people, find 30 minutes a day for you. Find 30 minutes a day to do some form of exercise, whether it's a walk, whatever it may be, it could be the gym, it could be the bike, it could be swimming, whatever. But, allow yourself 30 minutes and use that 30 minutes as your time. And I think I was running as dumb for me during that 30 minutes. Give yourself some perspective, understand that this is a big old thing you're under-take it. But if we go, I'm just going to worry about this next three hours. It's far more easy to get your head round. Yeah, I think it's easy to put yourself into overwhelmed when you said a massive goal. Like if you said, okay, seven in seven, you could overwhelm your brain with that sort of thing. And I think a lot of people do get overwhelmed by dreams and massive things. They see what other people and they do a comparison sort and they're like, I couldn't do seven marathons in seven days and therefore they don't even do one. Well, they don't even do a five K. You know, I do love that. It said, chunk it down. And we had a bit of a mantra. When we do something over seven days, the mantra is, just got to make the start line the next day. That's it. Because we get to the start. The artist bit, for more things you're doing like, it's turning up. But as soon as you get there and you start, then everything else takes off. There was a great story about a guy doing a massive trick and no matter what, he did 20 miles a day. Great, great weather. Feel an awful 20 miles. Beautiful weather, feeling amazing. 20 miles. And I think that that consistency factor and that's one thing I've noticed part of your career is there is just a consistency that breeds that level of performance. Is that something you chose? Is that something you learn through coaching? How did the consistency become with that? Yeah, I think I would probably, I try to be consistent at that. What I would say is the reality of that is probably, it's not always what you see. But I try. And I think there's lots of days where I don't want to do me 30 minutes or I think I've been on all days 10 o'clock at night. The last thing I want to do now is go and do 30 minutes on a treadmill after a minute's in the gym. I force myself. And it's not, it's for me that. It's my challenge to myself to be able to commit to it. But yes, consistency, habits, habits, because you do them over time and you build them up. As soon as you get to that point where it's a habit, then the guilt of not doing it, you feel like yourself there. But actually, I know if I don't do my 30 minutes, yeah, I'm not a great person. And not as good as I should be. Yeah, there was a great book called Strieking and not like running across a football field, naked, but building streaks in your life, like actually, as you're saying, okay, I don't need to do a hundred of these. I just need to do 10 pushups per day, but I'm going to do it every single day. And like, there was an interesting story in there where they talked about, and for them, they were runners as well. And they talked about there was day 700 and something. And they were getting off a plane and they were doing this and everything happened. It was like, we can't lose it at day 700 and something type thing. So it's like, there is that pressure as well of doing it. I mean, leadership. You lead a lot, obviously, both in the sport, in the coaching, that leads yourself. What are some of the key attributes that you think make a great leader today? And how do you embody that, I guess? Yeah, I suppose there'll be three things. And I talk about this, quite a bit, but humility. I think the best leaders I've worked with, I've used them out of humility. They don't always know, or have the right answer. It made me sticks. And they're open to say, I got this wrong, please can you help me? Or I don't know the answer to this. Team, can we come up with a solution for this? Can you help me? And I think there's a leader involved like that. I think it just gathers support and loyalty and pulls teams together. I think when you've got a leader who says he knows everything, never gets anything wrong, he's always right. I think it puts people off. So I think that's really important to start with. Plus, I think we all understand whether we want to admit to it or not, we all have weaknesses and truly part your job as a leader is to surround yourself with people who have got strengths where you've got weaknesses, but also who enhance your day, you bring positive it, you help you through the day, and who support you. So that'd be really important. Next one to be, you set ice standards, the best place I've been around, set ice standards, but that doesn't mean they're the best at it. It means what they try as hard as they can at everything. And it might be the worst in the team at it, but absolutely, they are empty in the tank and going for it. And through that, you get respect. And it allows people to all do this account, but if you set ice standards in you, going for it and you're giving 100% and committed to it every single step, then I think then you create an environment where people then want to get better and improve and set ice standards for themselves. And then the last one would be around courage. I think certainly the last decade with the way social media's gone and how popular people want to be. People want to say what they think people want them to say rather than do and say what is right. And I don't think, I think the best leaders I've worked with do and say what is right most of the time. That means at times you're going to be unpopular. It means you're going to get criticized. It means you're going to get laughed at. But if you notice the right thing for the group or the team or the organisation, well, sometimes we have to go through some tough moments. Sometimes we have to have a lot of challenging our lives that we don't necessarily want, but actually if we live our lives within integrity, try and do the right thing, try and look after people and a decision is deemed that it's unpopular or it's criticized. Well, it doesn't mean it's wrong. It can still be absolutely right. And so the best leaders I've worked with have the courage. And at times sacrifice themselves because they know it's right for the group. As you're saying this, I'm just thinking of like three situations in the last month where I had to make the call. One was with the family and the kids were just like, Dad was not in the in the good books in that part of the world for quite some time. Like, but two in business where one of them, my partners were very unhappy with with my decision. But I said, God, this is we have to do this for the long term. We just have to. Is what it is. Yeah, I know that feeling very well last month or so. Not all the time I have to do that. And it's tough. It's long. It's long been a leader. It's long. They've run in a business and been at the top and all the eyeballs on you and everybody criticized and everybody saying, shouldn't it done this? You should have done that. Well, if we always try and do what's right, then I love the fact that I run a business coaching company. So, you know, I have more than a thousand partners in the world that are all the coaches and I get coached a lot. I don't always ask for it. It does come. I always finish with a question, what was the best advice you ever got about success and who did it come from and why do you think that's the best advice you ever got? The best piece of advice I ever got was from a former coach, a New Zealander, a guy called Brian, McLeod, a lovely man. Still keeping touch with him. And I suppose I was living this way, but couldn't articulate it. I didn't have the words to be able to explain it, but he came up with a very simple phrase which was, to be a champion, you have to be a champion at home first. And basically, be a good person. Because if you're a good person, you won't just win once. You'll keep winning. And I just stuck with me. It's always trying to live my life, trying to look after people, trying to do it the right way. And I get stuff wrong all the time. I met the Sterex and like we all do. But that's my intent is always to try and do the right thing. So, it's stuck with me. I want to win like everybody else, but I have to do it in the right way. Otherwise, it's empty. Yeah, and the big success podcast hit the show. Don't know, click the links. Do the learning. We'll be back next week with more of your success.