How to Turn Rejection into Your Biggest Advantage (Laney Crowell)

Today on Aspire, I'm sitting down with Laini Crowell, founder and CEO of one of my favorite beauty brands, Say. Now, I know that so many of you dream of starting your own businesses. And so I want to bring you founders that will share their journey with honesty and with detail. Now, Lainey has been disrupting clean beauty since Say's launch in 2019. And today they have seven products in the top 10 at Sephora. So real measurable success. But Lainey didn't get there by playing it safe. And so we discussed what she actually did to get this business launched. In this episode, we're going to go beyond the wins and talk about the work behind the results, how she raised financing, how she thinks about growth, and how she makes hard decisions today without a roadmap. It's an honest look at what it takes to build something from scratch and to scale it successfully while staying true to your vision all along the way. I'm really excited for you to tune in and while you're here, do me a favor and like and subscribe, please. The intimates industry has historically asked women to compromise. Bras and underwear were often designed to look good or feel comfortable, but rarely both. Sizing was inconsistent, fabrics didn't move with real bodies, and so much of the category felt disconnected from the way that women actually live. As skims expanded, it felt natural to bring that same focus on fit, functionality, and inclusivity into bras and underwear, pieces that feel supportive without being restricted and designed to work with your body, not against it. That approach is exactly why the Fits Everybody collection stands out. That fabric took years to get right. It's incredibly soft, has just the right amount of stretch, and it truly feels like a second skin. It adapts to you, which is why these pieces are the ones that I reach for most often and I recommend without hesitation. They are effortless and comfortable and they just disappear under clothes, which is exactly what great intimates should do. You can shop my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com And after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and choose our show in the drop down menu that follows. Lainey, welcome to Aspire. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I am so happy to have you here. I've got so many questions for you. I didn't even need to do research for this one. I was like, I just know. I know everything I want to ask her. Let's go because I have so much to talk about. I love it. It's so good. So there's so much to talk about, but let's really try and start at the beginning, because I think before you built, say, you built something that so few people have, right? You built this element of trust through your community as an editor with the moment. And I really wanted to ask you, like, how important do you think the groundwork that you laid in the beauty industry was before you started the business? Well, I think it was really what I learned more than anything. Yes, it was amazing. I had this great community, funny story. one of the committee members actually is now one of my merchants at Sephora. She was following along the whole time, but it was the best part about that was that I knew every brand. I knew the entire landscape inside and out. And when you say you knew the entire landscape, like as an editor, you were looking at it through the lens of a consumer. Like, had you gone in and started to understand the business, where the white space was? Like, give me an idea of what you were finding out. But I wasn't looking at it like that. I was looking at it from an editor point of view of like, okay, well, what are all the skincare brands? What are all the hair care brands? And so then when it was, when I had that aha moment of like, oh, there's no clean beauty brands or there's just a handful of color. I knew every brand. I knew their price point. I knew everything about them. And you thought I can do this better. Like what was the feeling? Well, I was interviewing a lot of founders for my blog and I would interview them. I know that this feels like a really long time ago now that you say it for my blog. I know it was, it was, it was such a long time ago. how long ago was it oh my gosh that was like nine years ago now wow nine years ago yeah so nine years ago you're sitting there blogging you're interviewing all of these founders beauty wasn't even really a thing it was so nascent I remember interviewing these founders and they would tell me their stories and it was like oh well I was a painter or I was just a mom or I was doing this or that and I was like oh well I have a lot of beauty experience you have a lot of beauty experience But you also have like an amazing level of fearlessness, because I think when you look at your career, you know, going from the Lord of Days, I heard that you like pitched an editor on the street to get an internship. Where's that fearlessness come from, do you think? I mean, you know, I moved around my whole life. My mom was in the Foreign Service. Right. And my parents were very much always like, you can do anything. It doesn't matter if you're the best at it. And I'm not. I'm not the best at things, but I can do anything. And why do you say you can do anything? What's given you that belief? I think going through the actions, like trying things and trying to do. I mean, I moved to New York. I didn't know anybody. So that's where that happened. I read every single magazine front to back every month. I decided I was like, well, I should go do what I love. I love reading magazines. I moved to New York. I didn't know a soul. But when I ran into Kim France on the Fifth Avenue, I recognized her because I read the editor letter every month. And so I walked up to her and I said, Miss France, I really would love to work in magazines. Do you have any advice for me? She emailed me back and she said, you have what it takes because you were fearless. Wow. Yeah. Right there. And that's how you got the internship. That is absolutely crazy. But I think a lot about resilience because I think that is my superpower that I'm just not afraid of hard things. And I can take a really high pain tolerance. I can take those tough moments. And I think about, well, how did that happen? And yes, I think moving around, having to be the new kid in school all the time, I think that definitely contributed to it. But yeah, my parents expected me to do hard things. Say more about that because resilience is something that I talk about all the time, because I feel like part of what I do every day is just take a lot of no's, like a lot of knockbacks. Like somebody is always telling me why something's not going to work out. So I'd love you just to speak a little bit more to how resilience shows up in your day now? Well, first of all, I always say, let the no's fuel you. I had a call the other day and someone said, you know, this guy that we work with now, you asked him to invest and he says every day it's his biggest regret. And I said, man, I said, you know what the irony is? His no is what made me here today. Every no I get, I just let it fuel me. No. And that's, I think it's a great lesson because the truth is, I mean, it's full of no's and that's something that I want to talk to you a bit about today. So many no's. So many no's. A lot of no's is an understatement. We're going to count all through them. That's what this podcast is. It's like the hundred ways you can no. We don't have enough time. There's not enough time in the world. So let's go just through this. So it's like you, you have your job at Lauder, you have an internship, you have a job at Lauder, you then start your own newsletter. Through that, the realization comes that the beauty or the clean beauty space is ripe for disruption. What do you do? How do you even go, all right, I'm an editor and I'm going to start something? Just talk me through that part. So I had worked in beauty and I'd been in the social side. So I came to Lauder to help them start all their social channels. I started their influence marketing. I started their editorial. And that was all before any of those were called those things. Influencers weren't even called influencers then. They were called bloggers. And I left because I am the ultimate consumer. I am so clear on what the consumer wants because I'm her. And I love being like, I just don't feel like beauty is speaking to me. I have really sensitive acne prone skin. And my aha moment was I realized my makeup was making me break out. And I was like, wait a minute, you're telling me that this piece of luxury makeup that I spent my heart and manning on it is making my skin worse. I felt so deceived. For me, that's like the ultimate betrayal as a customer. And I left with this big idea like beauty should be better, really across the board in like a 360 degree point of view. And I didn't think that I was a beauty founder. People think I left Lauder to start a brand. That's not true at all. I had to have expanders come into my life to show me like, oh, if they can do it, I can do it. What parts felt unfamiliar or uncomfortable for you? Because I think there'll be so many people listening that go, I am not XX, whatever thing that they want to be. So in that sense... I wasn't anything. I wasn't... You weren't anything. That's how you felt. I'm not a makeup artist. I'm not a product developer. I'm not an operations person. I don't know supply chain. I'm not a finance person. So every bit. Yeah. You felt uncomfortable and unfamiliar in every little part. But I love learning. So I love learning every single part of it. So who were the people that you leaned on in the beginning for guidance and to kind of get you, I guess, you know, up and started and going? I mean, honestly, a big part of it was I had met all these founders and they had told me what, you know, what their experience was like. And I was like, oh, if they can do it, I can do it. And then there was the opportunity piece where I was like, okay, wow, like this is a huge opportunity. And I called a product developer and I said, do you think it's possible to make really clean products that are great for your skin, that even make your skin better, that perform. Because who wants makeup that doesn't perform? And when she said to me, 100% it's possible, that's when I said, okay, let's go. And I just put one foot after the next. And that's why I always, to me, I think anyone can do anything. So talk me through that part. What did it look like putting one foot in front of the next at that point? So it's like you have your reputation. What's the first thing that you did to get say off the ground? I started calling people. I called my dad. I said, you were a lawyer. Can I speak to a lawyer? I called my friend who I know had raised money in a completely different sector. And I said, what does it even mean to raise money? I didn't even know what any of it was. I had to learn that whole language. But there was a need for you to raise money out the gate. Yeah. I always wanted to be big. Right. That was very clear to me. I didn't start say to be a small brand. Got it. And so you called a lawyer, you called a friend I called a lot of friends. I said, I don't know why the number 70, but I always say talk to 70 people. And so I have an Excel sheet and I just start putting in the name, the number when I spoke to them and the notes they had. And then I always say to the person, can you introduce me to one more person? That is amazing advice. Let's dig into that a little bit because I always think that one person leads you to your next thing, but it doesn't stop there, right? You need to keep going and keep digging, especially when you're a total outsider. And I really felt like that when I started Good American. It's like, I knew the marketing piece, but I had no idea how to get a garment made. And you found that like the fabric person introduced you to the wash person introduces the factory person and so on and so on and so on. So it was a little bit like that. You just keep going. You were just much more organized than I was. You had an Excel sheet. I just had my dyslexic brain running like circles around me. Let's be clear, I'm extremely dyslexic as well. We have that in common. I think that's actually one of our superpowers. It's a superpower, right? But I don't even do Excel. I do Google Sheets. Google Sheets. Yeah. That's Google Sheets. Yeah. I still don't know even how to find my Google Sheets, but this is not about me. All right. So this is where I want, you know, the people at home, this is the moment to take out your pens because I want to talk about raising the money because you've spoken very openly about how difficult it was to raise money. But I want you to, I want to understand, like, did you have a solid plan? Like how laid out was it? How did you figure out what you would even need? So I had called someone that I knew who had worked in venture and she helped me put together my pitch deck. So I had that and every single meeting afterwards, I would tweak it. So with every note that I got, I would tweak or make a learning or something to like refine, refine, refine. And again, I started with, here are a fund I've heard of. The first one on my list was Unilever Ventures because I knew that they were mission aligned with my mission. They are so passionate about sustainability and the planet. And I wanted like-minded investors. The second person was Gwyneth Paltrow. Again, no idea how I was going to get to any of these people. And I think there is power in writing things down. Because even though I had no idea how I was going to get to either of those two, they're now my investors. That's crazy. So actually you had them on your list of targets. Number one and number two. So how did you get to them? just a lot. I mean, Unilever Ventures, I got invited to a brunch in LA because of the woman that does my brows. And she said, you should come to this brunch as founders and investors. And I remember telling my husband, I'm going to go to LA for this. And he said, you're going to LA for a brunch? And I was like, I don't know. My gut just tells me I should go. And when I went, someone there said, I'm going to introduce you to Brandon. He's now one of my one of my first investors, Brandon Sheinfeld. And he said on the first call, he said, I'm in. And he said, I'm going to introduce you to Unilever Ventures. And it was like the twilight zone. I was like, my gut literally drove me to this moment. That's wild. And my investor, Rachel at Unilever Ventures also got it from the moment we met. From the get-go. And I think there's something about that when people immediately feel it, like, you know, they're your people when you don't have to, you know, really like dig in and over explain. It's like they understand the space. They understand what you're saying. There's an element of belief in what you're doing already. And I'm interested just because you seem like somebody who kind of goes around learning and leveraging like everywhere you are. How do you distinguish between what is useful information and what is just someone's opinion? Because I've been in those meetings before when people have said, actually, I don't think that I think this, but I felt somewhere like deep conviction inside me. So how did you decipher what was useful information for you to then like impact your pitch deck as an example? Learnings. I mean, there was one piece of advice I got over and over again was that I should have a co-founder and I knew that I should not have a co-founder. Yeah. I was like, I, from, that was not a question for me. I was like, I like working by myself. I'm super clear on my vision. I just actually didn't really speak to those people again when that was their advice. That's a bold move. Why were they telling you you needed a co-founder? It was a first time founder. Like someone to run the business for you? Yeah. Yeah. Someone to run the business, someone who had done it before. I mean, fair, fair point, right? I mean, there's a part of me that goes, as a first time founder, you could well have been like, yeah, I definitely need that person. But you had the conviction to know you could do it yourself. I also had listened to a lot, a lot of how I built this. And if you listen to that podcast, there's very few co-founders that are still together. That is absolutely true. It's hard to work with people on an even playing field where both of your ideas have equal weight. I think it's a lot easier to have just a clear vision. At least that was just kind of what my gut told me. Yeah, I think you're right about that. I also think that if it's the reason to find a co-founder is to fill in for your blind spots, that's different because you can hire those people, right? Like, so I think that having a co-founder and having senior people that sit beside you in your business to do something that you're not proficient in are two totally different things. Like a co-founder is a co-founder. And I have partners in my business who are like my, they're my rider dies. Damn right. So tell me when we think about like the credibility that you've built in beauty, how much of that like really opened doors and how much of it like made you fall short? Like, I wonder if there were things that you thought you knew that maybe, you know, weren't so once you got down to actually running a business. I think the piece that I should have known more about was the financial side. I should have known more about margins. I should have known more about the almost more technical sides. I mean, I learned that when I was the early days, like I was running the P&L, I was doing all that. But then I would, I brought in a fractional CFO and that was kind of a disaster. And that part I was really not ready for. But now we have an incredible CFO. Thank goodness for the CFO. When you consider the listeners here, first-time founders, people that are really trying to get a business off the ground, what do you wish you'd have known about fundraising from the very beginning? Well, I think that you're going to get a lot of no's and that that's like totally normal, especially if you're a woman. I mean, 4% of VC dollars go to women. If you take out Mira, it's like 2.9%. Go to women. I love that it's like one woman. Good for her, by the way. Good for her. Good for her. Yeah. But actually to right size the assumption, it ends up being just sub 3%. How much do you think that women or do you believe that women have any responsibility to pay for that. Should we be investing in brands? Should we be investing in brands? And do you think that women, for whatever reason, their pitches might fall short? I'm wondering if you have any theory or thought around why women get so little, such a tiny, tiny piece of the pie. I don't think that people think women can run businesses. I think there's this really just pervasive thought that men are more comfortable running things. I saw this fantastic TikTok the other day that was like, they can't run Thanksgiving dinner. Why do we feel like they should be running anything? Fair. I mean, running a business is a little like Thanksgiving. There's a lot of shit happening at once. It's really true. All right. So talk to me about the decisions that you've made when it comes to operating your business? Because Say is, you know, to me, it's so clear what you're doing. It has such a clear point of view. And I imagine that there are a lot of non-negotiable decisions that you've had to put in place in order to live up to the promise that you set out in the beginning and the space that you know had to be filled. So what decisions did you make that have dictated the way Say would operate? So we have a really clear North Star from day one. We want to make products that people love that are great for their skin and even make their skin better. We want that to build with our community. We want to do right by our planet and we want to have fun. And so all of our- Are you having fun? I'm having the best time. And I think it shows up in everything that we do. I agree. I think that it makes our brain magnetic. I think it helps us retain talent. I think that it even dictates like you going to make great products if you having a great time doing it It a value that I think is so important I love that for you because I feel like inevitably running a business is so hard that there has to be some element in it that like you know when making cosmetics like it needs to be fun. And I feel like that comes through so much in all of your communications, in your emails, the way you guys write. Like to me, it's very visible that you're having a great time building this best in class brand. I didn't start a brand to not want to go to work. and like right running and starting a business is so hard so much I mean we launched say four months before COVID oh I mean it's been like you know a ride I mean let's talk about the work a little bit because I'm I'm dying to talk to you about your first hires but just in terms of you and how much you work can you give just give me an idea of like what a week or a day looks like for you how much are you actually working people always say they've never met anyone who works as hard as me, which probably means they probably haven't met you, but I love to work. I grind. You grind. You're in the office. I work from home probably three days a week. Got it. And then I go into New York City because I live out in the Hamptons. Right. I go two days a week into the office or I'm in LA or I'm in Dubai like I was last week. I love being with my team, but my office is like my happy place. I get so excited when I'm there. Do you work on the evenings? Yeah. Right after the kids go to bed, I go back to work on my phone. On the weekends, I'll check in. But, you know, I have two little kids, so I really try to be present with them when I'm with them. The Start With Yourself Tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sale now at emagree.com. let's just go back to the business a little bit and talk about how you've built this team i read somewhere that your first hire was somebody in product development how important has that been to your success because when i think about your product i think about innovation i think about product that actually works like when you sit here and say you know we make product that actually makes your skin better i'm like yes you do like i turned to say when i was like my makeup is making me spotty. And I said to my makeup artist and she was like, oh, we're going to switch a bunch of stuff. And it really, really works. You know this because I literally, the minute I met you, I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. Do you think that's the reason your products are so good? Yeah. So someone had told me, going back to advice that I didn't listen to, someone said, do not hire a product developer. The CMs have product developers. And I said, but if my number one North Star is to have incredible formulas, I have to have a product developer. And so I sold my stock at Estee Lauder and I used that money to hire a product developer that I'd worked with before. And she, first of all, got the vision from day one and we just started working on stuff. And she calls it the Olympics of product development because it's so hard to formulate our products. We have 2000 ingredients that we don't use. And a lot of those ingredients are dimethicone. That's a very common ingredient in makeup because it's a silicone. So it gives you that really beautiful texture, but it clogs your pores. We are hyper, hyper diligent about what ingredients we don't use. And so to formulate, it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time. I'm assuming a lot of money. Is it like more expensive to develop like when you're trying to be clean? No, because you don't pay until you're done with a formula. But our formulas are very expensive. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've got to pay at some point, right? And so when you were building this company, product developer was first. Yes. Were you, was there any trepidation using your own money? I think people thought I was crazy. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people would think taking, you know, a very valuable stock like Estee Lauder, selling it. Were you sitting on a ton of money? No. I mean, it wasn't a lot of money. It was, but tell me, like, was it like how much did you spend? $35,000. But $35,000, it's like, you know, it's some money. Yeah. It's some money. It was all I had. Right. So it was a lot. It was bad. It's like, it's the $35,000 that you had. Yeah. And you, in your mind, you were like, this is going to be the start of something. You knew it. I knew it. I knew it. Julie Rice from SoulCycle talks about this. She says, it's like you get a call from the universe and you either decide to answer it or not. And I had that aha moment where I saw exactly what the brand was. My community told me, here's even the product you should start with. And I just was like, this is it. This is the moment I've been waiting for. And you started with mascara, right? Yes. Would you start with mascara if you had to do it all over? You know, maybe not, but only because it's the best mascara and it never got its moment to shine. Really? It is. That's the product. Well, one of the products that people come up to me and they're I'm never, ever using another mascara. Because I mean, what's extraordinary about your brand is that you have seven of the top 10 products in Sephora at the moment. In each category. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. I mean, there's definitely no other brand that are doing that because there's not enough in the top 10. That's crazy. We sell one piece of say every 4.5 seconds. I don't know that I could concentrate all day. I'd be like, me, me again. Here I go again. It's so good. So good. I absolutely love it. But it's because the formulas are so good. And that was the premise I knew. As a consumer, that's what it's about, right? It's about creating an incredible product that it doesn't matter that we are the most sustainable. That I am so proud of, but no one's going to buy anything because it's the most sustainable. It's not because we have the most fun TikTok. We do have the most fun TikTok, but that's just marketing. It has to always come back to product, in my opinion. I love that you say that because I think marketing is such a distraction for people. Everybody believes like, you know, in the launch party and the social strategy. And it's like at the end of the day, you need customers to repeat by, right? Somebody has to love what you do and prefer it over the thing that sits next to it because you are in this like hyper competitive market. When I go into Sephora, I literally feel a bit feverish. I was there in Malibu yesterday. Like they're right there. You can't ignore them. How do you feel about the competition? Because since you launched, the landscape has really changed. Totally. It's totally changed. I don't know. I just can't. I can't think about it. You can't think about it. What a distraction. What am I going to do about it? So you don't think about it at all? No, I put on blinders. Really? You're not like looking over there and being like, develop that thing that they've got that's doing really well? No, because then what am I doing? I don't, that's not going to do anything. I have to focus on my formula. Because we just launched the first setting spray ever to not have synthetic polymers in it, which is insane. It took us five years to create it. If I was looking over here or over there, I wouldn't have been focused on that innovation, which I'm so proud of. I love that formula so much. And another founder once told me she doesn't even go to Sephora because it brings your vibration down. It brings your energy down. When you're looking all over the place, it's just a distraction, in my opinion. I love that. And you have to so limit your distractions as a founder. Right? We have so much to do. You have so much to do. It's kind of amazing. I wonder how you've kept the trust of the community that you came into this brand building. How have you brought them on a journey? Because arguably, you're a huge brand now. I think you guys have got to 100 million, but that was a couple of years ago. I'm assuming the growth is like, when you're seven of the top 10 products, I'm doing the mental math in my head. But we're feeling good about saying hundreds of millions of dollars. So we're concurring here. We're feeling good. We're feeling good. Okay. So how, how have the community responded to the growth, to the journey that you've taken them on? Have you like, I just wonder how you've been able to build and keep that community with you. I think about this all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just, I'd never want to lose their trust and connection. So we're always adapting, you know, we'll do a zoom for, Hey, let's do a masterclass on how to, where to place your blush. and we'll invite our whole community to do that. We do run clubs all over. Run clubs? Yeah, we just did one outside of London. Are we running? You did? Yeah. In my London? Yeah. Because it makes you feel good. You know, our tagline is feel good, do good. So we're not like in a face full of makeup. We're just feeling good there. Yeah, we're just going for a run. And then we get to try a product and connect with the community. I think there's been run clubs where we run to Sephora. Amazing. But, you know, we've done matcha. Obviously, I love matcha. So we've done lots of like cafe says where you can come and try products and meet people. I love in-person things. Is it still as central to the business as it were when you started out, like building, maintaining, speaking to this community? Yes. I think that as a consumer, like having that connection to the soul of the brand and having that transparency and having that authenticity is really what keeps the connection there. I mean, there's a girl, her name is Daniela. She follows me on Instagram. She was one of our first super fans. She messages me all the time and I write her questions. I'm like, what are you looking for? What do you want to see next? How are you liking that powder blush? Yeah, I think that's genius. To me, there is nothing like that original cohort of customers, the first people that come out and bought your brand. A, they remember the product right from the beginning. they're always the first ones to tell you when it's like well I feel like you changed that fabric I'm like we did but we're changing it back um but you know what I mean it's like having like listening to those early adopters and using them I feel like it's a great it's a great thing I want to talk a little bit about you and leadership because you have said some things that I love sometimes I read you and I like clap at the page I'm like yeah exactly what she said there was one quote that I love where you talk about texts and phone calls being like the lowest level of communication. What do you mean by that? Pick up the phone. I mean, it makes me so crazy. Someone will be like, oh yeah, I wasn't able to get in touch with them. Did you call? No. That means you didn't, you didn't try. You didn't try. I mean, also, I don't know that I like myself over text and email as much as I like myself in person. Oh yeah. You know, like things can come off wrong. Totally. Totally. There's a lost art of actually meeting people in person and doing business that way. There's something, it's so easy to fire someone, to relinquish their services, to, you know, if you've never met them and your relationship is only via email. But if you know someone, it's very different. It's like future-proofing your career. I'm like, get in front of people. That's a good tip. Pick up your pens, people. Oh, come on. Just get in front of people. So as your brand has grown, has your leadership style changed, do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think as a first time founder, I mean, I remember those first couple of years literally feeling like I was stepping into my power. This was the role that I was born to do and that I really wasn't totally myself until I was able to become the leader of say. Oh, that's really interesting because you are founder and CEO, correct? I feel more myself than I ever have. And I think the more I learn from my mistakes, the better I get. Yeah. What kind of CEO are you? Oh my gosh. I think we might have to ask someone and say that question. What would they say? I think I aspire for greatness and I expect that from everybody that I work with and because I want that for them. Yeah. I grew up in a time where, where, you know, editors were yelling at people and throwing shoes at them. And, and I kind of missed that. I'm like, they wanted you to throw some shoes, Amy. I don't want to throw a shoe. I have no need to throw a shoe, but I loved when everybody wanted everyone to be great. Yeah. Not just like here. Yeah. When you, everybody was striving for greatness, you know, and some of that or so much of that, I think comes from the conditions that you create in the organization, right? Is there room for your staff to be great? Is everyone on a mission? Does everybody believe in what we're doing here? And when you have those things like magic stuff happens, but you still need everybody to come to work with it, right? You need everybody to participate. But I agree with you. I think that there is something magical when everyone brings their A game and the expectation is an A game. It's so fun. And like, I wouldn't have hired you if I didn't think you could be great. Yeah, totally. And not just at say when for the rest of your life. For the rest of your life. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's training, right? You're training. We're all in training to be the person that we really want to be and the leader that we want to be. And so it's really important. It's like, you've just got to behave and act the way that you want to be. And it just becomes default. Act as if. Yeah. Act as if for sure. So as Say is expanding now, I know you just came back from Dubai, which is so exciting. Such an amazing market for your category. How are you thinking about the brand and the shift, like from an assortment point of view, from a storytelling Does anything change as you leave your home market? I think one thing that's really interesting that I learned when I got to Dubai, when we launched there about a year and a half ago, we were in all of the Sephora Middle East stores. But when I got to Dubai, they were like, oh, no, we know everything. We know all your products. We know you. We know the brand. And it was almost like I time traveled. Wow. And for me, it was an aha moment that consumers are really becoming one because of social media. There isn't that deep nuance that there necessarily used to be. like, of course, we might hire a local model and do things like that. And the assortment is definitely a little bit different. They love blush in the Middle East. I mean, that is like, we just can't keep it on the shelf. When we expand internationally, there's so much demand in Europe, specifically the UK, Australia, so excited to enter those markets. Right now, they just want say. Yeah. And have you had to hire internally, like people that specifically work in those markets or are you doing it all with? Yeah. One thing that I've always done is I hired a field team from day one. So a field team, you mean people that are on the ground, in the stores, at Sephora? Selling product. Love. And coming back to you. Yes. And telling me what's working, what's not working, little things like the label on the blush box is on the wrong side. And we don't know which brush that is. And so the consumer, if my field team member is not there, that means that the consumer can't find it. And And touch and span is so short. If someone can't find something, they might just move on. Yeah. So little tiny details like that are like, we have a blush right now in store and the lights are bleaching out the color a little bit and we're swapping it out. You know, you want to be able to react really fast to that. And the only people that are going to take care of your brand like that are people that are on your team. I think that is a great piece of advice for people. I remember working on the shop floor as a kid and there were these people called mystery shoppers that would come in. Totally. I remember that. You know, and I'd always be like, that's a mystery shopper right there. You know, she's come in as a spy from HQ. But I think it's a great thing for people to learn. And if you can't hire somebody internally, there are so many agencies and services that do it. But having boots on the ground to understand what is the consumer experience in? What other things are stopping people buying your brand? There's just no replacement for it. It's like, that's just you need it. I totally agree. I would even say, I think they need to be your own. Even if you can only hire one. You're like, bring that, spend the money and bring that person in. Yeah. I don't think, I mean, I'm trying to think it's always taken me a couple of years before I've been able to have those people, but I totally agree with you, actually. I think it's, it's an imperative and it's a game changer because the problem is you get too like far down, especially in your category, because it's like you're making custom packaging. And as you say, it's like, if you can't see what that blush is, you're literally going there to get the next blush. So it's right next door. Right. Like literally one way over. It's like not even it's not even a step. It's just a hand movement. And it's a head twist. Yeah. Damn right. I love that. What would you say to young founders looking to break into the beauty industry? I would say figure out how to build your community as early as you can. Create content, meet people, you know, really start building your network. people for some reason told me they don't like the word networking. That's like a thing now. Oh, maybe that was my problem because I like to differentiate between building a network and networking. Building a network and networking. Yeah. And I feel like, let me break this one down. I feel like you might just listening to what you've done. To me, there are all of these events and circles where people go out and they network around. To me, building a network is, it can be your bank manager, your lawyer, your suppliers, your vendors. Building the network is building the group of people that are going to help you get shit done, not having drinks and going out for women empowerment dinners. That's something else. 100%. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like there's this whole group of women and like, I'm never invited. I'm like, don't worry about the invite. Your network is the people that move you from A to B. And she typically is not wearing a good outfit at a dinner or invited either. I think what I mean by it is like relationships in the sense of like picking up the phone and having a real relationship with somebody. And I think that that is something that is really hard for a younger generation that is so focused on their phones and focused on scrolling. And they feel like they're in relationships with people, but they're not. And so I think really having those connections and saying like, hey, I would love to pick your brain for five minutes, or can I please take you to coffee? And by the way, read all of the articles and podcasts before you go meet that person and ask new questions that aren't in those. That would be probably my number one tip is try to start building that community and knowing people in the space. I couldn't agree with you more. I've done a whole episode on what it means to build your network. And I think that sticking your neck out, asking for something specific, because a lot of people, they might meet you, they might meet me, and they'll say, how do you become my mentor? I'm like, don't waste time, ask a question. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I probably don't have time to mentor you, but right now I'm in front of you. Like, yeah, it's like, just go. How would you talk to people or how would you recommend people go about building a network? Like, what did you do when you say like, ask someone for a coffee? Like, what did you actually do to build your network? I got my Google sheet and I just started writing names. I hope you're saving all these lists. They're going to be amazing to look at. I wrote down Rishi, who got investment for his, like a food app, who was a friend of my friend Jeremy's. I wrote down anybody like that. I wrote down like my husband's uncle. I wrote down people that I just heard them say the word fundraising or whatever it is. And I'd say, oh, I'd really love to talk to you about this. Can I come to your office I would always go to them And you were always available for whatever time they needed Anytime When I drive around New York City now it like a blast from the past of all of these random buildings that I went into because I would go anywhere for that five meeting. And then tell me what you would do, right? So you're going to sit in this meeting, you're going to talk to this guy, the husband's uncle. What were you asking? What were you trying to get out of that? I was saying, I think I need to raise a million dollars and I don't know how to get there. I don't know who to talk to. Do you have anybody who you think might be interested in investing in beauty? And they may say yes or no. And I'd say, okay, and by the way, what type of investment do you think I should be doing? I've heard a convertible note is really good. I've also heard a safe is really good. Do you know the difference? Do you have any opinions on that? Do you have anybody who you think could be helpful for me to speak to? And Lainey, just for clarity, for anyone listening to this, you had no idea what a convertible note was, what a safe was. You heard those things and went and figured it out. That's been a huge learning for me is like learning how to speak the language. I did not know how to speak the language of fundraising. It was as if I was learning Chinese at the same time as building my business. I didn't know any of the terminology and I definitely made mistakes. I think there should be a book about this for founders to understand equity and what you're giving up when you raise a million dollars with a $5 million valuation and what post and pre-money is and all of those things are really important things to understand. I think that I learned the language of Sephora. I think that was a big one for me. When I met them, I was speaking Estee Lauder and I had to learn how to speak Sephora. Now that I know how to speak it, I definitely prefer it. They are some of my lifelong friends. I love the Sephora team. I think they are absolutely the best partners I could have ever dreamed of, but it took me a while to learn how to communicate with them. Yeah. It's just excellent advice. And may I suggest that you write the book. Let's just go and do a publishing deal right now because it's like you've been there, you've seen it, you've done it. And you'll do the forward. Let's go. Okay. Let's go. It's a deal. It's a deal, my darling. I'm very mindful about what I rely on to support my health, especially when life is full. Schedules are demanding and there's not a lot of room for trial and error. I care about things that are consistent, effective, and easy to maintain over time. Armour Colostrum fits into that approach. 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It's perfect with yogurt or ice cream or straight from the bag. Visit purelyelizabeth.com and use code ASPIRE at checkout for 20% off and to taste the obsession yourself. so let's talk a little bit about the fact that you are a mother yes and while you've been building this multi-million dollar brand yeah you have two kids eight and five am i right so i wrote the business plan for say when i was on my due date with isabella i was she was two weeks late that timing why is that i think i think i talk to you're either like trying to get pregnant getting pregnant or giving birth? I think it's because our bodies are creating. And so like literally creation is like coming out of our pores. And I was so big. I was like a whale and I just wanted this baby to come out. And she was two weeks late. And I remember sitting down saying, I guess I'm just going to work on this business plan because it's in my head and it just needs to come out of me. And then I had something needs to come out of me. Something needs to come out. And, you know, I remember when I had Isabella, I was knocked to the ground. I found becoming a mom so hard. It was like an existential crisis for me. I'm like, who am I? This is so hard. I just didn't see it coming at all. And so it was about three months after when Isabella was around three months old, I was like, okay, I think I can start taking next steps. And I remember sitting with her, all of those nights, you know, you're, you're in silence, you're exhausted, you're rocking this baby. And I was just building the business in my mind. I was just sitting there with her as she couldn't sleep and I would be rubbing her back or she didn't, she'd fall asleep on me. And I was just building the business and writing it out and dream and crafting all of that. And so then once I was ready to go, I was ready to go. And so we launched, say, in November 2019, and I gave birth to Rosie July 2020. So I was pregnant for that first whole bit of launching the business, COVID hitting, and then getting into Sephora. How do you think the timing of all of that impacted the decisions that you had to make? I think they're impacting my decisions now more, actually. Yep. I think it's getting harder for me to leave them. I think when they were literal, I wanted out. I wanted a break really badly. Thank you for saying that. And now I don't. Now I want to be with them all the time. And so it's really hard for me to leave now. Yeah. I remember when my babies were little, kind of complaining to other moms about having to leave so much. And they were like, you know what, Emma, it gets so much harder as they get older. And I could never imagine that because I was like, but when they're older, they're more self-sufficient. But when they're older, they need you more. And when they're older, they know the number of days that you're away. And so it does get much harder. And I think this, this age, I mean, listen, parents will tell you all the ages are so complex that when you have kids that are between kind of like five and 14, when they're like not fully hanging out with their friends, but they need you and like you're their friend and they still want you in that way. It's a very big decision to get up. You don't want to miss it. Yeah. I don't want to miss it. Yesterday when I was leaving to come here, I woke up Isabella to say goodbye. And she said, mom, when you leave, it's like everything leaves. Isabella Be less good with your words, will you? And I was like Girl I was like, I hear you So what do you say? What do you say to Isabella when she says this to you? I totally get it I feel the exact same way I was like, I hate leaving I was like, but I'm building my dreams right now We talk about that all the time We talk about two things all the time We talk about building your dreams and how much work that takes. And then we talk about how hard things are and how the harder it is, the better you're getting. And I promised her that tonight I get in at like midnight that we're going to do a sleepover. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, I do the same thing. And I think it is really important that your kids see you sacrifice. They understand the sacrifices, but you're being really honest, right? You're building your dreams. that's going to teach her that she can go out and build her dreams and make sacrifices. I'm also really present. So Isabella and I, you know, we dance in her bedroom and she'll be, you know, Rosie will be like, you know, how many books tonight? And I'll be like, two. And I'll be like, go on, let's do three. Yeah. Because I do think that's a blessing. And I want to look at the silver lining of that, of like, oh, like, I'm so happy to be here with you. like I am we do the soccer clinic and um the other moms are like I'll drive I'm like no no I'm gonna drive I'm gonna drive and I love it and we're gonna listen to music I'm gonna we're gonna listen to Avicii we're gonna like party and we're and I'm gonna watch your whole lesson and I'm just like so happy and blessed to be there yeah and I do I listen I don't get huge amounts of time with my kids every day but it's like when I'm there I'm in it right and I feel like that is really important just having that concentrated moment because your kid feels that. They know when they are the center of what is happening versus when you're highly distracted. And so for me, it's like the trade-off has been, okay, if the time is limited, we're going to make the time that I am there really matter. I also really think about what I'm going to invest my money in in terms of so that I can have more time with them. So what is the help that I'm going to have around me so that I can be super focused on them so that I'm not in the kitchen or I'm not grocery shopping. I don't have to do school pickup if I don't have time to do that, but I can be super present by the time they get home. And I think that's something that people don't really talk about. It happens a little bit behind the scenes. Look, for the first two years of, say, I didn't take a salary. And for the next two years of, say, my entire salary went to childcare. Wow. I mean, first of all, so much that you just said in those last three sentences, people really don't like talking about having help. And I think it's the single biggest privilege of my life that I have so much help with my kids and around the house. And I know that from a young age when I couldn't afford much, just having someone that would come once a week and clean my house, I am always about outsourcing whatever I can, whether it was like meal prep back in the day, Like whatever I could. And I think that we've got to take the shame out of that because wherever women can get a little bit of help, if it's a neighbor, it's carpooling, it's deciding that one week you're going to do something. You've got two other moms that you switch. You've got to take it. Like to me, there is no shame in that game. And if you can pay to make some of the heavy work disappear as a mother, like why not? Why would you not do that? And why would we let other people shame us about that? I have just no idea. And I speak about it constantly because I hate that idea that as a female founder, we'd be putting forth the idea that suddenly I found an extra hour in the day. I haven't. When people say to me, how do you do all of that? I actually answer back with all the shit that I don't do. I'm like, here's a list of the stuff that I don't do. I haven't cleaned an oven in 10 years, right? It's like, there are things that I don't do to get to where I want to be and where I am in life. I never want to put forward this idea that you are doing it all or that we are doing it all because it just feels completely inaccurate to the realities of my life. Well, it feels like it's just perpetuating this idea for other moms. Yeah. What do you think your non-negotiables are when it comes to your kids? In the sense of who I want them to be or what the mom I want to be? Yeah, the mom you want to be. I want to be there for the things that matter to them. If they have a basketball game, they have a play, if that's important to them, I want to be there for them. I want to always take them to school. I love doing drop-off in the morning and being with them all morning. I want to be really present with them when they are meeting me. I never want to say, hold on a minute. Do you say, hold on a minute? sometimes I have to, but oftentimes no. Like if I'm there and they're like, mom, I need help. I'm like, let me help you. I love that. All right. So switching gears a little bit, I am so interested in how you've built this company and that you have stayed true to what it was that you originally set out to do with clean beauty. What are some of the early decisions that you made that affected operations. Like when you actually like said, okay, we're going to do this. Yes. Is it more expensive? Is it harder to do? Does it make things slow? The sustainable piece is always more expensive, but as you scale, it gets better. And my philosophy was that, you know, I'd worked at a huge corporation, so I knew how hard it was for them to turn and become more sustainable from not being. So I was like, let's just do it from day one. where I wonder like where the pressure to compromise came from the most like where is it margins margins margins will always get you yeah margins are where it comes but we're just so my team is so dedicated sometimes they say things to me they're like but Lainey that's the more sustainable option I'm like I really wanted the other one I really want to push the margin on this I'm selling something every four seconds guys but you know I think that for me that's how I sleep at night. And for me, that's how I like also justify everything with my kids where I'm like, babes, like let's change the world. That's so impressive. And is there a decision that you made that you think has been critical or foundational to Say's credibility? Bringing the community. I mean, it's where the name of the brand comes from. You say it, we create it. It was from our community saying what they wanted. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So we're always listening to them. We're always bringing in, we're so tight with them and the DMs and my DMs and, you know, writing back someone in Saudi Arabia said she wasn't happy with her sub-tint. I was like, send her a new one. Send her a new one. Yep. And I think those little extras are the differentiator between a big brand and a legacy brand. You know, we do all those little extras that really make people know like, okay, we are a brand of depth and soul and we're here to day. Beyond the scale and the revenue, you must feel like so proud about what you're building. Does it all come from that sustainability piece or are there other parts that make you feel so proud too? I'm so proud, but I'm not really one to like sit still. I do have, I have mentally shifted a little bit to like, okay, like let's dance on tables. Like let's have, Let's really enjoy this moment. But no, I'm very ambitious. So I'm always kind of like onto the next a little bit. How does ambition show up for you now? Like what, what's the next thing? Like what you try, what's the fire in your belly? What's getting you out of bed? Babe, I feel like I'm just starting. You do? Oh yeah. I feel like I'm at like the starting line. That's interesting. Six years in, you feel like you're at the starting line. In so many ways. I mean, we've really gone slow in a lot of ways. I mean, we have, we have very little distribution. We're in US, we're in Canada, we're only online in the UK. And then we did the Middle East as like our first international market. So we have the whole rest of the world. I wanted to tell you this story about perseverance that I think about all the time and I talk to my kids about. And it was going back to fundraising, but I think it also really applies to like the growth of the brand is that when I was growing up, we always had to play a sport. and it was a must have in my family. You had to play a sport every single season. And so I was always good at swimming. But when we moved back to the United States, we moved to California and there was a sport called water polo. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll go do that because I'm good at swimming. I had no idea what I was doing. And so that summer, my dad was like, okay, let's go play in a club league. And I got there and I was the worst and the kids bullied me and it was from three to 6 p.m. every single day. Oh, and I did not miss one practice. And I would sit in the parking lot with like a pit in my stomach. I was so dreading going to that practice, but I showed up every single day. And at the end of the season, the coach said, okay, well, it's time for me to build the team to go to the junior Olympics. It was a really advanced team. He said, Laney, he's like, you're on the team, but not because you're like the top 13th player. It's because you showed up every day. And that was my biggest life lesson I've ever learned because it showed me that like, even though I'm not the best, you can still get there if you put in the time and you put in the work. And, you know, when you say the story about like, oh, the brands that don't work at Sephora. And I just believe that if you put in the work, it'll always work out. I love that story because I think it says so much about the type of, um, the type of entrepreneur you are, but it's also something that I believe for so many women can be a stumbling block, right? Just having the wherewithal to keep going at something, face the rejection, not be good at it, because so many of us are perfectionists and we want to be good right out the gate, you know, and when you're not, that can be massively, you know, distracting for people. I feel like so many people give up at a point where, again, for you, you're just getting started. And that is so much a part of what it takes to be an incredible entrepreneur. Not only have you got to have the resilience, but you've just got to have the perseverance to keep going. It's a mindset. It's a mindset of like, oh, you know, you're going to run out of space at Sephora or this isn't going to work or, oh, that, or it's going to work because I'm going to make it work. What do you want to say to other women that look at you and go, wow, like she worked in corporate and she was an editor and she's stopping people on the streets. And now she's got this incredible brand. Like, what do you say when people come up to you and go, I want a career exactly like yours? You can do it. Do you really believe that? I really believe that. Do you believe everyone can do it? I think because I did. And I wasn't the smartest or the most talented or the anything-ist. I just put in the work there what's the ambition for the company now like what are we fast forward for me however many years what do you want my dream has always been to be a legacy brand that makes a difference that really impacts the industry do you have a benchmark for what that looks like oh when you say legacy I mean you came from Lauder but I wonder like what's the what's the goal like when you sit there and you go, I just want this. Oh my goodness Why don I have an answer to this I think it just that staying power where like you know when we get those numbers back from Sephora and they like oh 40 of people at say at Sephora shop say, I want that to be a hundred, you know? Yeah. No, that's it. I mean, listen, that's, that's a lot of people. I agree with you. I think that there is like such a unbelievable runway for your brand, but also for you as a entrepreneur, founder and CEO. And I love the fact that you said no to bring it on a co-founder in the beginning, because you have proven and you continue to prove that you are the single best person to run this company. And that is so impressive, but it's also creating a pathway for so many other female founders to do what they're doing and to have belief in themselves and their category and just go for it, you know, but it really takes a lot of people to do well, to create the thinking for other people that that should just be the norm. And so I think that you are like a bright, shiny light out there, which is really, really important. We need, we need that. You know, sometimes the moments before a big event are just as meaningful as the moment itself. It's the planning, the small decisions and the little details, all the things that help you feel prepared and present. Birthdays are a perfect example. The days leading up are filled with anticipation, figuring out the right look, setting the vibe, even thinking about how you want the space to feel when people walk in. It's less about the day itself and more about how you set the tone. And that same energy shows up in other moments too. Weddings you're attending, gatherings you're hosting, date nights you're looking forward to, whether it's choosing something thoughtful from a registry, putting together a chic outfit or adding those finishing touches to the tablescape to make everything feel intentional. Feeling ready beforehand changes the experience once you're there because the moments before the mask don't matter just as much. Here's to what's in store and Macy's is ready for it all. There's a difference between an idea you casually think about and one that won't let you go. The idea that keeps resurfacing is usually the one worth paying attention to. 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I want to talk to you about your relationship with money, because this is often something that I think a lot of female founders shy away from talking about. And I understand why. Do you think your relationship with money has changed running this business? the reason I pause is because I literally had a little conversation with myself about money yesterday. What did you say? Play it out for me. Because I was thinking, I was like, you know, I'm such a good consumer. That is such an elegant way to put things. You and me both. And I was like, you know, I probably should have some more money in my savings account, but I don't have any debt. It's really important to me. I don't love debt. I don't love a brand having debt. It was very important for me to get to profitability. That was always my goal is how can we get to profitability as fast as possible? I want to raise enough money so that we can get into orbit, which I always just had this visual of this rocket ship with enough fuel so that once we got out there, we didn't need any more fuel, right? That we didn't need to have more cash injections. I think now I don't see money as something that's hard to get. I think that money is energy and it flows. And if someone invests in my company, you're lucky. I think I had a mindset of like, I'm lucky. And now I see it as like the complete opposite of like, oh yeah, I'm going to work my ass off for you. You're really lucky. You have built something really fantastic. Your early investors will be absolutely thrilled. But at some point, that mindset shift has to change. And I think it's quite healthy at the beginning because you don't want to walk into investors with arrogance as a first time founder, but it's a balance, right? It's not being in service of all of these people. It's like you choose investors, they get to come along on the ride, they win some, they lose some, and that's just part of the course. And you always talk about smart money. And I think that is one thing that I didn't know it, but I kind of did. I mean, Rachel Harris at Unilever Ventures gave me the best advice I could have ever gotten. She said, you have to have a key retailer. DTC is dead. And I did not know that. I was like, but what about Casper? I mean, what about Glossier? I was like, I have all of these references that for me, I thought were the gold standard. And so, I mean, that's just one of a thousand pieces of advice she's giving me that were incredible, but I feel so lucky that she's in my corner and that she was my lead investor from day one. She's like my fairy godmother, kind of. I was so lucky that you had somebody like that. And then once I had her, I knew what to look for in other investors. What are you bringing to the table? And I love that because I talk about it constantly. It can't ever, I mean, listen, maybe once in the beginning, it's just about money. But once you've got that initial piece, It's like you need a lot of other things and the advice and the experience and the sector expertise, like that matters more in so many ways. Is there other advice that you got that you're like, thank God somebody told me that. Someone didn't tell me to do reference checks. And I think that is. For your investors, you mean? For anyone. I think that is a lost art. And if there is one thing I can say that I wish I had done differently, I wish I had done more reference checks over the years. I think references are everything. And I think you should put the time in. And if someone tells you like, oh, well, I can't, you know, give a reference for X, Y, and Z reason, then call me when you can. Yeah. I love that piece of advice. In the beginning, when I was taking investment for Good American, I actually nearly walked away from a very good investor because there wasn't, you know, it wasn't the one that I was feeling most inclined towards. And I called Jen Akin and she said, these are the best people on my cap table. And I was like, really? And it just was the thing that sealed the deal because it was somebody that I trusted with, you know, years of experience with this person. I remember like doing the math in my head and thinking, yeah, my business was about the same size as when she took that. And so, you know, in my head, I was like, great, they get it. But that connection to the information can only come from someone who's been in business with those people. And so, I mean, I'm crazy about reference checking. It's just because I just like to make calls and I make calls about like, even if it's a reference check, I'm just like, let me just ask the opinion of like X, Y, and Z whenever I'm making a decision. But it is, it's part of that check, check, double check, call someone who knows if you don't know, you better get to know. Yep. All right. So if you could go back and speak to yourself right at the very beginning before the crazy numbers, before Sephora, what would you tell yourself to worry less about? I'm like a professional worrier. So I like to, I am in the weeds. I'm in the details. I think about everything. Like I, you know, someone didn't have the right address today. And I was like, who did that? How'd that happen? Let's talk about that. Right. how do we fix that what's our lesson learned let's recap that i love i love i love going over we have a call i'm called the hindsight's call and oh i love a hindsight and it's and it's every after every launch we hindsight what didn't work and at first the team was like only talking about what did work because they like wanted to i think it everything to be all rosy you know that is human nature and and what every single team does to me at hindsight and i was like i was like no guys i'm Like, did you send the right amount of people? Like, did the warehouse know what they were doing? Like, let's get 1% better every single time. Leni, for people that don't know, we just talk through like what hindsight looks like. After a launch, you're doing what exactly? What metrics are you looking at? We're looking at the EMV. That's a big one that we're looking at. We're the number one clean beauty EMV brand. And so that's really important for me that we keep growing that because then, you know, you get to number one clean and then you're like, now I want overall, all, right? And so I think we were number 14 overall last year. So that's how are we getting to the top 10? We're looking at every single side of the business. So we even have supply chain on there. We have planning on there. We have social, obviously social takes up a big chunk of it. Totally. What TikToks performed the best? How did that whisper part of the phase go? Was it too long? Did we tease it too long, too short? Every single aspect of that, if you're walking through the entire experience again, what would you do differently? Yeah. And I love that because I think it's great discipline. Yeah. I mean, I really am. It's like, we're just coming off of Q4. And so hindsight in the entire holiday shop, when we go through every single thing, it's like every print, every silhouette, every category, every fabrication, every marketing campaign, every split, the whole thing. And being deeply reflective in your business can be really painful because you're like, we did that again? Like, you know, I always want to take like five times. Totally. You're like, well, what do you mean? That was in the last time. But it's actually amazing because you start to see the patterns in your company. And I think companies are often very similar to people, right? They take on a life of their own and they do similar things and they make similar mistakes. You're a toddler, then you're a little bit older, then you're a tween. Where are you in this? Are you, are you out that you're out of the terrible twos? Oh, yeah. Yes. Well, we're six now. So I think, you know, we're sleeping through the night. Totally. I got it. Dive us off. I know. I think my team got really intimidated by hindsight. So they didn't realize that I love them. I don't even care about any mistake. I just want to learn from it. Totally. And I think when you create that culture purposefully, it gives people permission to make mistakes because you're saying collectively, we own this. Collectively, what could we all do better? It's not like you over there in the logistics department. If anyone's fault, it's my fault. Facts, right? And it actually is great for a founder to sit there and go like, hey, that direction that I gave, like that was wrong because so often it's me. I'm like, did I say that? Oh yeah, I remember now. It's really good. It's really, really healthy. I'm excited for the runway that you've got in front of you. What's the most exciting thing that you are thinking about like right now, As you think about this company that you've got, where you've kind of put this fun in the heart of it, where is that sitting for you right now? So we have so many requests from Europe. I'm really excited to get there. What are those Europeans asking for? They just want you in town. I mean, you know what? Quite honestly, when I got to Paris for Fashion Week a couple, what was that, like a year ago, we did the Chloe show. And we did a little thing and I was like, oh, my God. I was like, these are the say girls. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's your girl. that the way that they wear makeup is so no makeup. Makeup, it's skin first. They care about ingredients. They care about the healthy skin. I mean, Sienna Miller in the front row of that. I mean, she's like, oh, heaven, heaven. No, that's your girls. I mean, you know. And so the Brits, the French. I'm excited. The Italians. I went to the flagship in Milan when we were there. And they say, oh my gosh, they're like, we need to say now. And I was like, okay, I hear you. We're coming. Let's go. We're coming. Yep. But listen, I think it's going to be an amazing journey. I will be watching you and cheering you on. I cannot tell you. I have a makeup bag, actually a beautiful vanity case, full of say, that I will be using. And I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy for all of your success. I'm so happy that you feel this ambitious and that you're in this beautiful category that just we're crying out for. I feel like all the girls are crying out for it. So congratulations to you. Well, thank you for this platform. I mean, I just love that we're having this conversation. I love that this is like what the vibe is. Damn right. Yes, let's all get it. Yes. No, let's all get it and let's learn from each other. So before we wrap, a quick reminder that Start With Yourself is available for pre-order and tickets for the live shows are available now. Starting April 15th, we're coming to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, DC, Boston, Atlanta, and London. visit emagre.com for tickets and full tour details i cannot wait all right all we've got to do now the rapid fire questions you ready i think i'm ready okay i'm terrible at rapid fire because i'm just so fucking long-winded so feel free um all right what is the one say product that you cannot live without oh glowy super gel oh me too i was gonna say that yeah it's so good that product what is that it is when i launched that product people said but this, what is this? What is this replacing? It doesn't have a category. And that's what has made it the number one highlighter at Sephora. I mean, it just, people are like, it gives me back my use, my light, my lip from within. It makes me look like I slept all night. I mean, you forever first step. I call it my 15 year old face. I'm like, where's my 15 year old face? That's it. It's like, there she is. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but that's how I feel. Okay. It's as much about how you feel. What do you think is the most overhyped makeup, like routine or step or trend or thing that you're seeing out there? Like what do I feel like you could skip? Great question. I mean, I did just launch an incredible setting spray that is aerosol free, alcohol free. It's great for your skin. I think you can skip the aerosol in your face, setting your makeup for 24 hours. I think for occasion, but I don't think you need that every day. Facts. What is one money rule that you live by? Know that you always have it. Oh, she's coming from an abundance mindset, not scarcity. What is a book that changed your life? Let My People Go Surfing. Oh, that's a good one. That's the founder of Patagonia, right? Yvonne Shonard? Yes. Amazing. I gifted it to everybody at Say for one of our off sites. I just, every chapter of that book gets better and better. When you're reading this book and then all of a sudden he's talking about how he brought daycare into the workplace. One of the first as well. Yeah. The first. Yeah. You're just like, oh my God, like he's just such a pioneer and a real inspiration for me. Yeah. I was just going to say that that's the perfect person for you when you talk about like, you know, not walking away from your values and your principles. I mean, that's the company. That's the benchmark. Integrity. What are you still aspiring to do or become? So I just wrote my 2026 goals. They poured out of me. They're in a note on my phone. There's a lot for 2026. This is like a big year. Are we scrolling? No. To live lightly and powerfully and be really proud of the energy that I bring into the room. oh that's a good one lightly and powerfully oh I love that so we do our goals as a family and we sat down and Rosie's five and as she says I can't read I was like I was like girl I got you I was like I'll I'll write down your goals for you and I said what's your goal she said be wild that is a perfect five-year-old and I said I think I'm gonna take that goal girl you're like Me too, me too. I added that on there. That is the sweet. Be wild. Yes, five-year-old Rosie. Be wild. And Lainey. Be a wild woman. I aspire to be Lainey. The two of you. Yeah. I mean, that's so nice. First of all, I love that you do that together as a family. It's the sweetest tradition. Oh, it's so good. All right. Tell me, what do you do? What is the first thing you do when you wake up? I go make a matcha. I have my whole little kind of routine. I make a homemade vanilla syrup that goes in. And then I get cozy with my girls and we just cuddle on the couch for a good five, 10 minutes. Well, that's a good start to the day. You know, I'm all about the morning ceremony. I want a good cup and good tea and a good light. And you drink a black tea? I actually have, I have tea with a little drop of milk. Yep. Goes like the color of my skin. That's my favorite cup of tea. But it is ritualistic for me. It's like, I want the, you know, I want that moment. Even the cup? 10 minutes. Yes, the cup. Yes. It's all about the cup. Somebody bought me very beautiful matcha cups for Christmas, actually. And I was like, I just now it's like I want matcha because I have the cup. It's like I have the right setup. Congratulations to you, my darling. I love it. Amazing. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you love with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Executive producer, Ashley McShann, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese-Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Lagrasso. Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Carlos Delgado, social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schaaf, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. greed is spelled g-r-e-d-e that's aspire a-s-p-i-r-e with emma greed or you can submit