Ornithorhynchology (PLATYPUSES) with Tahneal Hawke

Oh, hey, it's the coffee shop guy who is happy to heat up your muffin, Ali Ward, and though we can't all be in Australia right now, we are all here for platyposes. What is with this allergy? You ask me horrified by the amount of letters? Well, Ornitho Rincus in Greek, that word, that portmanteau of words, means birdlike. And the species we're going to be chatting about and natinus means ducklike. So these critters names literally translate to birdlike ducklike, although there was this outmoded species name paradoxus, which just means unexpected. Platypus itself, that word, means big, flat feet. We're going to talk about those two, as well as this other just constellation of confusions that is the platypus. But first, thank you so much to patrons of the show who make it happen by joining for as little as a dollar a month. Thank you to everyone checking out Smologies are shorter kid friendly episodes. You can subscribe to wherever you get podcasts. Those are linked in the show notes. Thanks to everyone finding each other in the wild in your allergies merch from allergiesmarch.com. And thanks as always to people who review the show. I read them all. They help so much to prove it. Here's a wet one from Jordan D friend who wrote that allergies is like the best comfort food and a warm hug combined. Jordan D friend. I'm embracing some bread pudding in return. And on to this week's guests who got their PhD in biological sciences with a focus on impacts of river regulation on platypus population dynamics from Sydney's University of New South Wales, where they are now a joint senior research associate, as well as at Toronto Conservation Society. They have nearly a decade in monitoring wild platypus populations. They worked with nearly 500 wild ones publishing numerous papers on these animals, including field anesthesia for platypus' proven method in the case for non veterinary and accreditation pathways in the journal Australian Mimology. They let me ask so many befuddled questions on mine and your behalf. So say goodbye to small talk about the weather forever because this single episode of allergies will give you ice breakers for the rest of your life as we touch on their fur, their face, their butts, their tails, their evolution, their conservation, how to spot a platypus virus. Why you shouldn't have one in your bathtub, build work down under platypus' and espionage, milk, eggs, hoaxes, and a lot of soft stunned gasps with biologist conservationist scholar, professor, and ornitho, oncologist Dr. Timiel Hawk. Okay, first things first platypus' platypie, what's the deal? So platypus' technically platypodes, but that's not really widely used. The reason is because it's actually Greek origin. So if it was Latin origin, it would be platypie, but because it's Greek origin we go, we generally go with platypus' Okay, that makes sense and it solves the most burning question in a lot of those minds. That is, I would say my most asked question. Okay, good. We got it right off the top. Well, it's the great talking to you and I hope you have a great rest of your day and that's it. That's all I got. No, I'm kidding. What about species? Are there a lot of them or just one? Just one species of platypus right across their range, which is like pretty unique. We're kind of looking into the genetics a bit and there's kind of a bit of a difference across east to west, but not enough to even be a subspecies. So just one species, yeah. Are they slightly different sizes or something or do they just have different vibes? A bit of a different size. So platypodes in Australia, they extend from kind of up north in Cans in Queensland, all the way down to Tasmania. So right along the east coast of Australia, so if you're up north you'll find that the platypuses are much smaller. But when you come down to Tazi, they're starting to get pretty big. Like a male will be around three kilos. So there's quite a size difference. Six and a half pounds. So a little more than a standard bag of flour or a two liter bottle of soda, I should not be drinking. And those babies as tiny as half a kilo are a pound. But on average, if you had to compare them to a size dog or a cat, like what kind of pet would they be? Yeah, I guess smaller than both. Like your standard dog. Yeah, much smaller. Like maybe a small kitten vibe, I guess. Yeah. They're that small. Yeah, a lot of people when they see them, they're quite surprised by the size they expect them to be kind of like, you know, like a otter beaver size. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely much smaller. Like I guess average would be around a kilo, a kilo and a half and about 50 centimeters. So yeah, they're much smaller than what people expect. So about 20 inches long and weighing three and a half pounds or like the teacupiest Yorkie that you can fat them. I never knew that. I thought there would be aversize or like if you had a friend who has like a 20 pound cat and you go, whoa, that's the big one. I thought they'd be about that. Yeah, no, much smaller, much smaller. Only smokes. Okay, and there's only one species. Only Australia? Only Australia, yeah. So endemic to Australia, which you know, makes them very unique in terms of the evolution. Do many zoos even carry them? Have any in stock? Yeah. So it's a bit of a hot topic. Platypus, like they're pretty hard to keep in captivity. There are a few institutions. So we have Tarongazu in Sydney and out at W here. That house platypus really successfully. And also Hillsville Sanctuary down in Victoria who have like a long history of having platypus in captivity. You know, they're really kind of, they know how to house them well. They know what they need. And there's a few other institutions around Australia that do it really well. There is also over at San Diego Safari Park. They've got a pair of platypus that came over from Sydney a few years ago who are doing really well. So let's hear it for Ambassador Animals and probably reluctant Australian expats, Eve and Beirurung, whose name in Aboriginal means a river of mists and shadows. And the two arrived in sunny San Diego in 2019 and the park keeps their night owl schedule by making sure their enclosure is dark during the day. And if you are looking for some breathless, tabloid gossip about their personal lives, scientist dish that Beirur, for short, is more relaxed with his keepers, but more active. And he's a quote, sleep on top of the cover sky who's ready to go as soon as he sees his keepers at 6am. However, Eve likes to sleep in all cozy is more talkative than Beirur, greeting her keepers with quote, a hissy growl vocalization when they check on her nest box. And if you were like, get these cuties in my eyes, but you can't make the trip to Australia or California or you're scared of the United States. You can live stream San Diego Safari Park's platypus cam. And if you're like not to complain, but why does my zoo have Ambassador Rescue platypus is to enrich my life? So there are a few institutions, but the problem is they're really hard to breed in captivity. So they are only really coming into these zoos if they're coming in as rehab animals, if they're coming in for the wild injured. So that's really the only way that we can kind of get those animals in captivity. Are they bonded pairs? Like when you say that they've sent a pair, are they like, we've shipped them, we love them, they love each other, let's send them over? No, so platypus is solitary. So they don't mate for life, they don't have bonded pairs. That's just kind of a pair of our end doing, I guess. Like, they've gone along pretty well at the zoo. So yeah, they went off to San Diego together. It's like married at first sight. Yeah, pretty much. You're just going to see how it goes. Where are they living? I picture them living in little creeks or ponds, but I don't know. So rivers and creeks, is their primary habitat? It depends on the size. Generally they cope well with most conditions. Their ideal foraging depths are about one to five metres. So that's kind of where they really like hanging out. But along the east coast, yeah, if you're lucky enough, you'll find them in most river systems, as long as there hasn't been any significant degradation. But yeah, they're pretty much just hanging out in all the rivers and streams along the east and side of Australia. You said five metres so they can dive down to like 15 feet. Are they holding their breath and their little bills? Yeah, they're amazing divers. They'll be like on the surface. They'll dive down. They'll close their eyes and ears. Hold their breath. Kind of scoot along the bottom looking for water bugs. And they can hold their breath between like generally around two minutes. If they're feeling threatened, they can hold it for much longer, like up to ten minutes, if they really want to relax and like lower their heart rate. Oh. And they can't get around the two to three minute mark that they'll be down and then they'll kind of pop up to the surface and eat any of the bugs that they've found. So these sweet little weirdos, they're swimming around. They're clapping their little bills to eat up all kinds of aquatic bugs and worms and larvae and such underwater at night. How are they doing this? I can't find my lip balm in the darkness of my purse. How are they gobbling up so much in the dead of night with their eyes closed? This is baffling and it's magic. So yeah, essentially they're not relying on their eyes or their ears when they're underwater. So their bill is incredibly sensitive. It's got electro receptors and mechanoreceptors, which essentially means like once they dive under the water, they're detecting all those electrical signals that any little water bugs, any fresh water shrimp or worms are giving off. And that's kind of guiding them to their position in the river, like down in all the mud. And so yeah, they're able to just dive down, detect those signals, find their prey and then they'll come back up to the surface where they'll eat their prey. Is that like a, is there metal in their bill? No, no, yeah, super sensitive. They're called electro and mechanoreceptors. They've got about 50,000 of them in the bill. So it's highly sensitive to just any movement or electrical impulses that are happening in the waterway. Okay, so 50,000 tiny electric receptors. This is news to me, but it's not news to ornithrallic analogists. So a 1987 paper in the journal nature titled electro receptors in the platypus reads that it's been known since the 1800s that the bill of the platypus contains densely packed arrays of specialized receptor organs, mechanoreceptive, that can detect movements of water currents and tension and pressure, but the electro receptive has been more surprising historically. And it says that behavioral observations showed that a platypus could detect weak electrical dipoles. And it was suggested that the animal was able to locate moving prey by the electrical activity associated with the prey's muscle contractions. The bill, it's not a beak, it's a bill then, right? Correct. Is it a being, is it a bill a type of beak? Clearly, I don't know Jack shit about this because all I know is that they're weird, they're like a Mr. Potato head of different parts. This is why we love them, but yeah, is it a bill, is it a beak? So a lot of people are also shocked when they say a platypus because they, like it's called a duck bill platypus. So people have this perception that the bill is going to be similar to what we would expect from a duck's beak. So quite hard. The bill is actually very soft on a platypus. It's almost like malleable, like you can bend it. It's very robbery. And that's just because it's like, it's so sensitive, it contains all these, you know, electro and mechanoreceptors. Yeah, so very different to the beak of a duck, which a lot of people are surprised about. Do they got teeth in there? Are they a mishmashin' around the bugs? How do they chew? Yeah, no teeth. They are born with like some vestigial teeth, which kind of helps them crack out of their egg. But then as an adult, they don't have any teeth. They have what we call carotenoise grinding pads. So inside the mouth, it's like these two kind of horny grooves that run kind of latrally. So when they come to the surface, they're kind of using their bill, they're kind of moving the top side to side and really grinding up all those little bugs into sort of a paste really. Oh. Well, speaking of horny grooves, they lay eggs. They do. Do they got genies on the inside or the outside? How do they make it more of themselves? Yeah. So there are monitoring. So yeah, they lay eggs. They have a cloaca. So both male and females have the cloaca. Similar to what we see in a chicken, which essentially means like all their reproduction and all their feces and all their urine and everything happens in a single hole. So the males, they have like the penis and the testes inside in like internal. When mating happens, he'll kind of flop out his penis and yeah, into the cloaca of the female and they will engage in mating. Did I hear wrong that it might be barbed? It is. Well, okay. Is it how many forks? Is it like this? Is it like the scepter of Neptune? What's happening? It is quite confronting, I'll be honest. It is like very alien-esque is how I would describe it. So it comes out it has like two heads and then at the end of each head, there is like several large spikes, but then the whole penis itself is also covered in smaller spikes. So yeah, not my idea for good time. I'll put it like that. And they're not like kushboskushy spikes. Are they like fingernail hard? Yeah, like they're not huge spikes, but they're definitely hard. Like I wouldn't want to touch it with my fingers. So I can't imagine it's too pleasant. How are there any platypses on the planet? Yeah, good question. I mean, and is that evolutionary purpose? I know we can only probably speculate, but is that to clean out like sperm of competitors or is it just because they were made of leftover parts? Yeah, don't really know to be honest. It might be like something to do with just how they're mating in the water. So perhaps it's like a mechanism to make sure that they stay interlocked. When they're mating, there's like a whole heap of circling maneuvers that are kind of happening, often called like a love doughnut leading up to the breeding. Okay, so to test the quality of a meat, a female platypus will wrestle and chase around and kind of feel out the vibe before doing any baby making. And part of this little sexual dance involves this translike yin yang circle with their bodies where they clasp each other's floppy tails with their rubbery bills and then they just marry around in the water like that. So yeah, platypus is kind of 69. But then when they're breeding the male will be on top. But yeah, I'm like, we're not really sure about the mechanisms of, you know, why they have these barbs, but we do also see them in a kidness, which is their closest living species and a kidness on land. So I'm not sure of the evolutionary reasons why they retain those spurs. So they have an egg that's fertilized through an arduous process that you probably could litigate if you were on land. Then does it pass through the overduct and then the cloaca like a bird and then do they have like a clutch of them or is it like one and done for the season? Once the female is pregnant, it's required to a quick process to egg laying. So the male and the female will mate usually within a week after that. The female knows she's pregnant. She's going to start collecting nesting material. So they are a mammal, but they do construct a nest as you would expect a bird does. Obviously, because they're laying those eggs. So she's going to start collecting this nesting material. She's going to build a breeding barrow in the riverbank and then she's going to start hauling all this nesting material deep into her barrow. She's going to construct a little nest and then within about 10 days, she's going to lay her eggs. Then they're going to hatch pretty quickly after that. Wait, how fast are we going to have about 10 days they're going to hatch? No, that's so fast. Yes, super quick. But when the eggs hatch, they come out very small. Very like anyone's familiar with marsupials like kangaroos, they have like a tiny baby like jelly bean size. So they're very primitive when they're born. But no pouch. No pouch. No. So these things again, the size of a teacup Yorkie with a no bouncy, flappy bill. They got a barbed, dawn, and babies eggs. Mechanics are iconic lifestyle. No idea here. Do they normally sleep in a burrow? Like let's say that they're dilfs or what is it? Dual income, no kids, dinks. Let's say they're dinks. Dual income, no kids. They're child free. Would they sleep in a burrow anyway or would they just be like, I don't have kids, so I'm going to sleep in this patch of wet grass. Most platypus is, I'd say 99% I'm going to sleep in a burrow every day. Obviously they need to breathe air. So it's quite difficult for them to sleep in the river. So they'll construct what we call a resting burrow. And that's, you know, it's in the bank. It's maybe a couple of meters deep, but that's kind of where they're just hanging out during the day. So that's different to the breeding burrow. The breeding burrow is normally more complex. It's normally deeper. It might have like a series of chambers. And yeah, it'll just be a bit more complex than those day-to-day burrows that they use. When they're in their burrows though, for the most part, they're live in solo. Yeah. But when they're in their just sleeping burrows, they're just like living alone. Yeah. So this is kind of what we've always thought was the case. Like I said earlier, a solitary animal. We are seeing some evidence just in a few of our recent studies that in certain populations where the density is quite high, that we've noticed a number of females are kind of sleeping in these big condos of, you know, females getting together in one certain area. So whether that's like something to do with how many platypus there are or maybe at this location, that's just like the primary estate and they're all trying to frame in it together. We don't know. They've gentrified the particular riverpric. So sometimes yes, there are big somber parties with a bunch of moms and babies just like a little sweet, furry, stinky aliens underground. Do you have to get down there with fiber optic cameras? Are you checking it out? Are you doing like a zillow home tour with camera? Yeah. So in the wild, it's super hard to do that. Once a platypus goes into the borough, it could be sort of anywhere in the earth mound on the riverbank. So we have had a few instances where we've put like a radio tracker on the platypus. And then when it goes into the borough, you can kind of use this antenna to kind of pinpoint where the animal is in the bank. And we have worked with a few documentary crews that managed to like carefully, very hand drill down through the soil. Once the female was out foraging the river, we knew we weren't going to disturb her. Hand drill down into that chamber. And yeah, put a small flexible camera in and then kind of seal up the entrance. And we were able to get some really unique footage of those kind of puggles growing up in their borough for a few weeks, which was really exciting. Puggles? Puggles, yes. They're called puggles? Well, I guess up for debate. I mean, yeah, I vote yeah. Yeah, that's my philosophy. Generally, now it's kind of more accepted as puggles, but there's no real evidence of where that came from. And I know some of the like old school researchers might prefer to use just juvenile platypus, but you know, I think puggles kind of, it gets the audience excited anyway. Like a tiny gummy bear puggle. Did they have little bills too? Yeah, so they're born, like I said, they're primitive, but they're very much, they look like a platypus. They're just tiny and pink and very underdeveloped. Yeah, very strange looking at it initially. Also, I saw a video. Well, they're building a borough and they're making a nest in there. Females will grab bunches of vegetation with their weird little tails and then they'll drag them into the hole into the layer. Like if you were to try to drag a bushel of corn stalks through your front door, but the long way is so ambitious. How are they digging these underground catacombs? Don't they have like a webby foot? Yeah, so the front foot of the platypus, it's super specialized. So it is webbed. It's very well adapted to swimming in the rivers because that's kind of primarily what they're doing. It also has, they also have like nails on them as well. So they can actually kind of fold back the webbing and then they can use their nails to dig these really like intricate boroughs. So yeah, there's a lot going on there. Oh my god, it's like a pocket knife. They're just like, that's amazing. I mean, are they nocturnal? Because I've seen photos of researchers out and it looks like it's nighttime and people are wearing headlamps. Are you just sneaking up on them while they're sleeping? They're nocturnal. So primarily they are nocturnal. For us to study them like it's all happening during the night. It depends on what season it is. So over the winter months and kind of leading into spring in Australia is their breeding season. So they might start coming out a bit more during the day over those months. The males are trying to find females. They're trying to establish territory. So you might get a bit more daytime activity but certainly predominantly at night and all our research is definitely kind of focused over those evening hours. Okay, so you're working nocturnally. What is the life of a platypus expert? Like do you brew coffee at like 5pm and you're like, get your hip-weaters on and you're like, let's get to work people. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I would say I've only started drinking coffee in the last few years and I'm not sure how I used to do this job without it to be honest. Yeah, like a typical day, we're heading out sort of in the afternoon. We're looking for sites. We've got a few considerations when it comes to net setting, like the depth of the river, which nets we can use, if we can get access, how fast the river's flowing. And then yeah, we spent a couple of hours kind of putting the nets up. We're hanging out, we're waiting, we're hoping for platypuses. Pretty much and it depends on the project but normally until the morning. Wow. So again, over and over. And do you know, is there like when you're fishing and there's like a barben, like how do you know if you've got one that's like, ah, shit, I'm in the net. You got me, you got me. Yeah, it depends. So we have two types of nets. One is called an unweighted gill net and it has like a series of floating boys on top. And so when a platypus is foraging in the water, it'll hit that net, it'll immediately surface for air and it'll be splashing on the surface. So normally what will happen is we'll hear the splashes, but we're also kind of patrolling that net with the spotlight. Every couple of minutes just because we don't want to miss any action that's happening, we don't want to stress that animal out. And so we'll jump in the boat and we'll go and collect it from the net and put it in a pillowcase. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The other type of net that we have is called a firek net. That's where we're putting our weight is on, you know, we're going into the river. We're setting these nets. They're very different. So the platypus is kind of funneled into a series of chambers. So it can be resting in the water. It can be resting out of the water. And so those ones we're checking, you know, every couple of hours throughout the night to make sure the platypus aren't in there for too long. So yes, two types of nets and the second one, a fake net is used in shallow waters. It's kind of like a halfway submerged hallway with these different chambers, like walking through air locks on Star Trek. And then if you get one, then do they get kind of like a volume situation and then you're weighing them and checking, you know, taking a DNA sample and all of that? Yeah. What happens when you fish them out? Do they get a treat? Yeah, I wish I could give them a treat. So like I said, once we catch, they go straight into a pillowcase. And then for us, it's really kind of, we're trying to reduce the stress to this animal, lucky enough. These are wild animals. We don't want to cause unnecessary stress to them. So once they're in the pillowcase, if it's cold, we'll put a little towel around them, we'll put them in the car. So often we have like a car full of platypus situation. But they're really like, they're quite comfortable there. I think it maybe like resembles their borrower, but you know, it's dark, it's quiet, they feel secure. So normally they're just going to be resting in the pillowcase, no problem. Our protocols, again, this is different to some other research groups, but we actually do like an infield anesthesia for platypus. So while they're still in the pillowcase, they'll go into an induction chamber. We use like an iso-floring gas, which if you take your dog or you cat to a vet, that's kind of the standard protocol, the standard gas that they'll be using. And essentially the platypus within a few minutes, it's just breathing in this gas, it'll go to sleep. And then that allows us to then have a really close look and take those samples. But you know, health and genetics and measurements and anything that we want to look at. Do you guys fight over whose car the platypus is going or do they smell like, what do they smell like? They smell bad. Okay, they smell bad. Like the platypus themselves are fine, but often they're pooing in these bags and they're being held for a while and their face disease is like some of the worst stuff I've ever smelled. So generally if someone else wants them in the car, I'm like, yeah, you can take them and put them in yours and they can do it. The consequences on the drive home. It's because it's poop from a cloaca, but it's also made of insect paste, right? Yeah. The siftings are all the mud on the bottom of the river and they're probably, yeah, it's not a pleasant experience. And it always like, it gets on you and it's one of those smells that you can't really wash out to easily. So I'm like smelling a platypus every time I'm in the field. He wanted you to have as rich an experience as possible and I looked more into the information on this smell. One conservation site reported that fresh platypus poo looks like black mousse or soft serve ice cream, but it's tacky like hot tar. It also smells a lot. It added some other adjectives that I found for you to savor strong, anxious, musky, pungent and bad. Well, are there a lot of view on these night expeditions or is it like a ex files, molder and scully pair up or is it like there's 50 people because everyone's like, this is the dopest job in wildlife conservation. Yeah. This is kind of a balancing act that we play. When we first started, it was kind of awesome. A few volunteers like very low key. And I guess now that it started to build traction in the media, people are getting excited about this research. We get a bit bombarded sometimes with requests for people to join. People want to see a platypus, which is fantastic, but also we want to kind of maintain numbers to a level that we're not going to place any extra stress on these animals. Because you can imagine if your platypus, it's already a stressful situation going through being trapped, being prodded and then being put back in the water. So I guess the smaller the numbers, the better, just in terms of noise and light and anything that might impact the animals. You don't want to put them on like a red carpet situation when they're like over here, over here. Can I get up? Yeah. You know, everyone's gramming them. Well, if you're out there all night, you're drinking coffee. It's a long night. Who, where are you being? Where are people like, what's that like? Yeah, in the bush. I'm an expert now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No stress, my end anymore. Like that's a lot of it for me. But I feel like, you know, when people volunteers come out, they're always a bit like, oh, like, where's the bathrooms, you know? So I'm very, I went out when I'm putting out these calls for people to join. I'm very explicit now about like, we're out in the woods. Like, you know, there's no comforts here. You're going to be comfortable with discomfort a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Did you grow up camping a lot? Like, is this something that you didn't even have to worry about? Were you like, okay, there's a big learning curve in terms of outdoorsiness. Big learning curve. Okay. Yeah. Like, when I was young, I loved animals and I loved the outdoors, but like as a family, yeah, we weren't that outdoorsy family, you know? We weren't camping maybe a handful of times. And so when I, like I started my PhD research, it was very much like in the deep end, you know, camping, boats, water, waiters, making a fire, driving a full drive. Like all that stuff was very foreign to me in the beginning. So the learning curve was, I would say, very steep, but yeah, I really found my feet with it, I think. And you know, like, I love it now. I love being outdoors, being in nature. So it's worked out pretty good, I'd say. Do you ever take friends, like close friends or family out with you? Yeah. Try to, like when I first started this research, it was very much, oh, look at like cute animals. I love this. I still feel that way about platypus. But I think some of the special parts now is actually getting to share that experience and share this like incredible animal with other people. So yeah, really any opportunity I get to take friends, family, anyone out in the field, you know, it's like a real privilege to be able to share that experience. When you started with platypus, were you on a completely different wildlife track? And then someone's like, hey, I need another researcher for this or were you sending emails to platypus experts being like, oh, man, oh, man, no, I wasn't. I was looking for like an honours masters project when I was still an undergrad and one of the professors kind of said that they had this platypus project coming up. And so I went and saw him and he said, oh, like it's too soon. It's still a few years off, like nothing's kind of in motion yet. And so I kind of laid that dream to rest. And then a few years later, I saw an advertisement for a PhD position at which stage I had like no interest in going back to university to studies. I kind of, again, I just missed it. But then there was, yeah, I was nagging me in the background, I guess. So I thought, oh, just apply and see what happens. And then I got it. I've been platypusing ever since. Oh, what a job. Do you get to touch them with your own hands? Do they have soft fur? Do they have soft bellies? Yes. They do. Yes. So while they're like an eetitized, you know, you get like a really up close look. They're so soft, especially their bellies. Like, yeah, really soft. And I guess so platypus is they were actually extensively haunted in the early 1900s. And that was because their fur is so soft, like, and it's waterproof. So they would make coats, they would make rugs, like hats, all this stuff out of platypus. And you know, when you're touching them, you realize, you know, why? Like, very soft, very soft. So if you listen to our Lutronology episode in which we talk smack on otters, you will know that the density of their fur is what keeps air trapped close to the skin and maintains their body temperature, even when they're clocking long hours in the sea. Same thing for platypus. So their fur is nearly as dense as otters. It's soft. Apparently it's almost fillity when it's dry. And their feet, whoa, their feet are webbed once with these long claws. The best analog visually, I can think of is like a leather flamenco skirt with knives along the hem. And even the tail, it's not like a beaver tail, it's not leathery. I looked at picture and I was like, wait, they got a big hairy butt over here too. The tail is actually different to the hair on the body. The underside is like hairless, but then the top side is kind of bristly. I can always describe it to people who's like, I don't know, in America, like those kind of shitty brown door mats that everyone has on their front porch. Yeah, that's a little bit dated. It needs replacing. That's kind of what I always think of when I touch the tail. Like super bristly and hard compared to the rest of their software. Oh my gosh. Okay. So many questions. Can I ask you listener questions? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh my gosh, we have so many. Let's get to the milk of the things. And we will lap up those answers in a moment. But first, let's take a quick break and donate to a cause of theologist using. And this week, Dr. Hawk directed it toward the platypus conservation initiative, which works to reestablish these amazing and irreplaceable animals in the wild, reducing their risk of extinction before it's too late. And a donation to them helps reintroduce more platypus along Australia's East Coast. It supports vital research and outreach programs. Again, that is the platypus conservation initiative. And we will link them in the show notes. So thank you to sponsors of the show who make that possible. Okay. Let's get into your questions, which you submitted via patreon.com slash allergies. You too can join for a dollar a month or you can pop up to an upper tier if you would like to leave an audio question, such as this one. Hi, I'm Roni. I'm from LA. I heard in a previous episode, I think it was mommology about how the platypus mammary glands work. And I think I guess my question for that is, why? Yeah, my question is what the fuck is up with that? Thank you. So mammary glands. Okay. Yeah, they're different to mammals in the fact that platypus don't have any nipples, but they still produce milk for their young. So what's kind of happening is when the female is in that borough with her young, she's kind of laying on her side and she's just excreting milk through her skin, essentially. And then the baby platypus is kind of there just lapping it up from the stomach. Oh, very weird system going on there. I mean, so many people ask this, but in so many different ways, but let's just talk about the evolution. Katie King, the coal, ZYZ, Rosalind, Hesby, Aaron Johnson, Aurora, Colin, isoparty, Storm, Matt Thompson, Adzi, Irmannologist, Jennifer Grogan. I mean, so many, I'm going to have to listen all on a side or maybe not. I mean, another like 15 people want to know. And Ben Beardak, Biori's words, why do they seem to have so many unique features? What happened to all their evolutionary cousins? I mean, I know that you must be so sick of people just stuttering why at you, but honestly, like they're so weird. Yeah, so like, so they're monotrames. So essentially, that means they're a group of mammals whose ancestors have kind of retained these traits, like egg laying, which is a feature lost by what we see in mastupil and placental animals. So it's like an ancient characteristic that's shared with birds and reptiles. It's evolved before the development of live birth. So that kind of explains what some people see as primitive egg laying traits. I tend to refer to it more as not primitive, but it's a survivor of an ancient lineage that's evolved separately from other mammals. So the egg laying is kind of a bit of a throwback. It's like using a flip phone or a digi cam when you go out. It's like vintage tech and oldie but a goodie. So you know, it has all these weird features, the spurs, the eggs, and then a lot of the others are kind of adapted to its environment. Like we see, you know, the webbing that we were talking about, the nails that they used to dig and walk on land. And then this bill is obviously highly adapted to the waterways and the food that it's eating. So it has a real mix of morphological and evolutionary traits that, you know, come together and make this super unique animal. I understand that when someone in Europe was shipped a specimen, they thought it was a hoax, but they were looking to see if it was stitched together from a lot of different animals. How long has the colonizing world outside of Australia known of these beautiful creatures? Yeah. So yeah, the first one that ever went back to Europe, they were like, this can't be real. This is a duck and a beaver stitched together. So they had it under a microscope. They were looking for the stitching, you know, where the bill attached. Yeah, it's not been long. People still don't really believe that this animal exists, I think. Like sometimes when I put stuff on social media and you know, it goes viral internationally. It's like people from other parts of the world are still like, wait, these things are real. Like this animal actually exists. So yeah, I think maybe still a lot of people around the world don't actually know about platypus to be honest. I mean, I think that they're possibly the most fascinating animal on the planet. They are a hodgepodge of so many different things and they're so rare. And now I know that they're like kitten sized. I'm in love. Do you know of any Aboriginal or indigenous sort of like traditions or myths about it? Doug Foster, Aaron Farley, Charles Harrison and EJWanau to know in Charles words, what importance do they hold in like indigenous Australian culture? Yeah, so the platypus is considered a totem animal for some indigenous Aboriginal cultures here in Australia. So you know, it holds deep cultural significance to those groups. And it does feature in some creation stories and their spiritual traditions associated with the animal. Some evidence in certain areas that perhaps platypus were eaten by indigenous people, but then for other areas, you know, it was considered too sacred to be hunting or eaten. So yeah, definitely depends on where in Australia. Obviously, the platypus is specific to the East Coast. So definitely has stronger ties to certain indigenous peoples throughout that area. Mm-hmm. Well, you mentioned eating too. A few people wanted to know if anyone eats their eggs or tries their milk and what it might taste like. Do you have any data? My answer's going to be no. So you know, platypus, like to see a platypus even in the wild is rare to come across their eggs inside the borough. It's exceptionally rare. Like you, I'd say it would almost never happen. And if it did, the eggs are tiny. Like so I was talking about, you know, the size of the platypus when it's first born. But the eggs are very small. Like, you know, nothing like a chicken egg. We're talking more like an oversized spider egg almost. Wow. Like a breath mint kind of like if you were going to have a mentos? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. So like mentos size bit round. So you know, you wouldn't get much nutritional value out of a platypus egg. I don't think. And yeah, in terms of the milk, yeah, you'd have to find, I guess, a lactating platypus and then be willing to suck all the milk straight from its stomach. So, you know, if you're lucky enough to do that, go for it. I'm sure there's one person out there who in history who has. Hey, don't worry y'all. I found an account from the 1832 paper titled on the memory glands of the Ornitho-Rinches paradoxes in which this anatomist, Sir Richard Owen, recounts very hands-on research, writing on compressing the glands in a specimen, they're escaped from these orifices minute drops of a yellowish oil which afforded neither the perceptible taste nor smell, except such that was derived from the preserving liquor. I mean, he says he did this, but if you were to bop over to the Sir Owen Wikipedia, you would see that in addition to being a knight, he was also a bitch. As it was a whole heading titled Conflicts with His Peers, which starts off Owen has been described by some as a malicious, dishonest, and hateful individual, and a social experimenter with a pension or sadism addicted to controversy and driven by arrogance and jealousy. So maybe if you squeeze a dead platypus milkland, it will just taste like ethanol or maybe he lied for cloud. Based on how they smell and what they eat and where they swam, I can't imagine it wouldn't taste a little maybe earthy. No, I would be steering clear of that personally. Well, who does eat them? Olivier, Kalas, Christine Wenzel and Vannevalentish, as well as AJ wanted to know, like AJ asked what predators do they deal with in the wild. Who's out there eating them? Yeah, so I guess in Australia we have a big problem with like introduced species. So red foxes, feral cats, that's probably the biggest issues for platypus. But when you think about the platypus, like, you know, they're living in rivers, so you might think, oh, they're pretty much safe. Like what's going to get them? The issue that we have with those feral species is when conditions start to dry out. So rivers are drying up. The platypus, they might start moving over land more to try and find better habitat, more water. And that's when we see the super vulnerable to those introduced predators. There is also some evidence. So we have in Australia, Murray Cod, which is a native fish. They grow to be over 100 kilograms. Wow. There's some anecdotal evidence that maybe in areas where they overlap, some juveniles might get taken by these big fish. And then also birds of prey might also be an issue. But the evidence for that stuff is pretty limited at this stage. How big are the gummy bears when they are floppin' out of their burrow? Like are they like a tiny candy boat? Like what, how big? No, so they actually, they will stay in the burrow for about three months. And so when they emerge, they're 70 to 80% of the full adult size. So they're coming out of the burrow like ready to go. And often mom is sort of kicking them out too. She's like, you've overstayed, kicking them out the door, and even like even backsealing it so they can't get back in. It's very much like, you've turned 18. I'm changing the logs. Mom, mom's over it. She's my bitch. My two-plames are. Yeah, she's not a dog. Well, okay, a bunch of people from Patreon asked this question. A bunch of listeners did and I did not even know. Like I had no idea. Linus Rain, Tina, Benevolinish, Attic Pelow, Obelette, Angelus, Snap asked, why do they have venom? What is after these weird, fascinating creatures? And then they asked if friendship, why dangerous? I will say I do get that comment on social media a lot which I love. But yeah, the venom, so male platypus is they have this venomous spur on both their hind. Well, it's on their ankles essentially. And it has a venom that is said to be the most excruciating pain known to men. Like, yeah, like there was a record of someone, I think it was the Korean War of Vietnam War. And he had like full body shrapnel wounds. And later in life, he actually got spurred by a platypus and he said that the spurring from the platypus was worse than any war injury he sustained. So yeah, like there's no anti-venom morphine won't help. Like you're going to pass out from the pain. And then you could be in pain for months. Like, and some people report even years of this ongoing pain. So the venom is like really serious. Why they have it is it's really, we think a male, male combat thing. So the venom is like it doesn't impact platypus as much as it impacts humans. Or you know, that would probably be detrimental to their longevity. But we see the during the breeding season, the venom production really spikes the males. And you see them like, you know, they're aggressive. You see them fighting in the water, you know, they've got scars on their tails from when they're kind of engaging in this combat. When it comes to combat, the males are well equipped for a knife fight. And that's because the, you know, they're fighting for race also. They're fighting for females. They're fighting for habitat. And the reason why we think that this is to do with breeding and not like an anti-predator defenses, because we don't see these spurs in the females. So females are born with a residual spur, which is lost just to recap again, where we're at anatomically. Rubbery bill. Tiny as a kitten. Smell terrible, bristly tail, electric face, armpit nipples, venomous needle sharp ankle stingers. And females have spur nubbins that do nothing, maybe just for style. It's so interesting that human males have nipples. Female platypuses have no nipples, but they do have vestigial spikes. It's all topsy turvy. It is, yeah. Who needs what and who's using it? But Andy Pepper wanted to know how serious is the venom. I'm guessing that you have not been in venomated because you would probably have told me. Yes. So yeah, when we're in the field, we're steering clear of that. Like I said, you know, it can be months of pain. It can cause muscle atrophy. Normally, it's people like get spurt in the wrist, or the hand, but your ability to use your hand could be really compromised. So yeah, when we're in the field, you know, we're super careful with how we handle the animals. We're assuming that any platypus we catch is a male until we prove 100% that it isn't, but irrespective when we're handling them, we're holding them by the tail with our hand kind of on like the back side. So, you know, it's out of reach of the spur. And it's like really the only safe way to handle them and make sure that you don't come into contact with those spurs. Do you know anyone, any other colleagues who have accidentally been poked? Not my direct colleagues, but I know some people that work at Taronga Zoo in Sydney. I've heard their stories of being spurt. One lady was spurt there. I think she said it was more painful than delivering her twins. And there's, there are records of people, you know, who the issue that the public has is they'll see, normally it's an injured platypus that's on land and they'll kind of go off and they'll try to help the animal without realizing about these spurs. Because you know, a lot of people don't know about platypus let alone about their venom. So they're trying to help the animal and they get stung and they soon realize the pain associated with it. And if you wanted to see one that wasn't injured and maybe even more defensive, but if someone wanted to see one in the wild, like that's their dream, like that's their bucket list, the only thing on their bucket list. So that was Kim C as well as Lisa Gorman, Sarah Bone, Bush Witch and Mallory Avery. Although patron Aaron Gunderson wrote that, why is it that as an albeit determined and well informed tourist, I was able to see three in the wild in a week from a road or tram and I only met one nonbiologist Aussie that had ever seen a wild one. What's the best way to spot them from a safe distance? Is it possible to just go sit by a riverbank? Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, it takes, I would say patience is the number one thing to have. You can see them like really any rivers and streams throughout the East Coast. If you're lucky enough, so Dawn and Dask is the best time to see them. And you really want to be sitting at areas, you know, where there's a nice low moving like a pool in a river, not those kind of fast moving rapids. You really want those calm areas just because it makes it easier for you to cite them. But then within, you know, within their distribution, there are some hot spots. So like, if you're hell bent on seeing a platypus, I would recommend going to Tasmania. The river systems are slightly smaller throughout a lot of their range there. The population size appears to be really good there. So a lot of people have success with sightings in Tasmania. Oh, okay. Good to know. We do have an episode about Tasmanian Devils. And so yeah, take two boxes off. I've never been to Australia or New Zealand. I want to go so bad. There's so many critters to see Emily Sanders wants to know. I'm there from Olympia, Washington. And they were wondering how we feel about the platypus representation in Perry, the platypus character. More specifically, are they very social? Are they enigmatic? Do people have a hard time finding platypus? Yeah, what are their personalities like? That's my question. Are you aware of this? I am. I am. I've only really been made aware of it though, again, through social media. So a lot of like the content we post, again, if it goes viral, I get all these people coming in like, this is in Perry, like, where's his pedora? Why is he not breathing? Like what's he doing? Secret agent kind of stuff. So Perry, the platypus is a character on the animated show, Phineas and Furpe. And is assumed to be a very simple-minded family pet, but Perry leads this double identity of espionage, considering how odd and rare and not domesticated they are. The secret life does kind of track for them. But I guess the storyboard artists were inspired by Riverbank mud brown, so they took some liberties. Moody just mad skill. He's got a fever tail at a bill. I am the women's snooing. Whatever they hear, you say. He's Perry. Perry, the world. So yeah, very much aware of Perry now. Even like the university that I work for, some of their social media content, they've kind of been capitalizing on that, and adding a little pedora, and adding the background music to try and get people excited. But yeah, people, I think they have this perception, some people that, you know, that's what a platypus is, like this teal secret agent, hat-wearing, weird thing. But, you know, it's highly anatomically incorrect, really. Sure. Perry is aquamarine and walks on hind legs. But still, a tiny hat would be like the most normal thing about a platypus. But what kind of charisma do they have? AJ and Ali Holcomb needed to know. They're not very social from what I understand, from what you've told me. But are they enigmatic? Like, do they have different personalities? Like, are some feistyre and some just like, fine? Like, give me the gas and take my blood. Yeah, they definitely have personalities. Like, and that's evident even if you're, like, if you're not researching platypus and if you're just trying to spot a platypus in the world, like, you can already tell that they have these real different personalities. Like, some are quite inquisitive. If you're sitting on the bank of a river, they'll notice you there. And they might, like, be interested. They might kind of pop up and down. They might be quite playful. Whereas others, you know, they have those more shy tendencies. So they might notice you and they might dive in, they might immediately spoon away. Like, they want nothing to do with you. So there's definitely a difference. And when we're trapping for sure, like, some we catch, like, you know, even within females who are not typically the most aggressive sex, like, you will notice that some are kind of trying to bite you. Even though they don't have teeth, they kind of try to, I guess, bite you with their bill. We're some are much more placid. So there is real variation among individuals in terms of personality. Oh, okay. Magda Kassalka ask, would a platypus be my friend? And would they rather do a puzzle and drink tea together or, like, snort Coke in a club bathroom? And the answer is it really depends on the platypus. That's right. So yeah, I think you can get them mixed up both. That invitation. Also, Lena Schuster wanted to know, do they do much Nathan asked? They seem like they're kind of clumsy and generally incapable is what Nathan Curry says. I'm going to think Nathan Curry, you try using electro magnetic sensors on your face to find a bug in a mud puddle and just tell me how that goes. But in general, like, are they sleeping a lot or are they pretty like hustle? Yeah, hustling. Like, yeah, they're doing a lot. So you imagine, like I said, there are between one and three kilos, but they're eating these tiny, like, water bugs, you know, like insignificant in terms of their body weight. So to get the amount of food that they need to survive, they're sometimes they're foraging up to 16 hours a day. So they're swimming out there, you know, and they're working against different flow conditions, different temperatures. How many water bugs are in the river? Like, they can travel up to 15 kilometers in a day if they feel like it. So they're very capable and they're certainly active. They're also, you know, navigating things kind of outside of that, like, you know, in a river system, it's not just water. Like, we're navigating sometimes waterfalls, you know, rocky areas. Sometimes we need to go over land. So yeah, they're busy. Oh, I mean, let's be honest between you and me. Are they the best animal? Another we don't. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I might be biased, but yes. No, I think that they are. You know, they have all these incredible features. Like, yeah, I think they're amazing. And like I said before, you know, it's a privilege to be able to work with them. I wouldn't have even asked this, but so many listeners ask. Plansai Lorraine Katie Bell, Colby Evans, Kyla McDonald, Miranda Ferriol. So many of you craved this information. Michael Timbrook, Empress of Small Wood, Lisa Veres, Kim Jen squirrel, Alvarez, Molly Mia Arclay, Lauren Herbert, Bridget Wall, Lexifer, Denise Sanders, Jenny, you Haley Kay, and Planet Silerraine asked, they glow blue, green under UV light. For why do they do that? What? I didn't even know that. I suddenly came out within the last two years. Someone kind of used these museum specimens to shine a UV light out and found that they glow like a bluey kind of purpley tinge, depending on where you're pointing your light. And we don't like, I don't really know the reason for that to be honest, because we do see that in a lot of native Australian mammals, like it's in our marsupials, whether that's some way that these animals are communicating with each other, whether it's something to do with predators, whether it's because they're nocturnal. Like I don't really know the mechanism behind that, but I will admit we have, after that paper came out, we did purchase UV light and we do tend to shine it. It's a platypus and see if we can see the pretty colors. I mean, I remember that came out about flying squirrels recently too, right? By accident, someone just shined and then everyone was like, we got to go see what's in the collections, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we make to Perry for a second, special K wanted to know, do they really sound like, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, and so what do, what sounds do they make? They don't make a lot of noises. They do do like a bit of grunting, you know, if they're unimpressed with the situation, if they're waking up from the anesthesia, they're a bit like, like what's happening to me. We do get some that do like a bit of squeaking when they're waking up, so like really cute like squeaking sounds or even like a bit of like a snoring sound when they're waking up from the anesthesia, but that's kind of it, you know, they don't rely much on vocalization, so we don't hear too much for them. Well, I mean, they're so cute and people want to take their fur and I understand that they're not doing great, but you've done some recent releases in Royal National Park? Yeah, correct. Yeah, and so a lot of people wanted to know just how their conservation is doing, how their populations are doing, what they're affected by, I know so much of your research looks at that, so let's have it. Yeah, so again, this is like where all our research kind of leads is we want to better understand their conservation status. So how many are in the world? As that decline, you know, what's their range? Is that changing? So that's kind of why we're out there at night with tagging these animals, we're trying to estimate numbers, but as you can imagine, it's very difficult to even see a platypus. So to study a platypus, you know, it's high effort to try and catch them and you need to do that repeatedly at a single site to get an understanding of how many platypus is just at that one site. And even then that can be inaccurate because obviously there's animals, you know, they're not in a closed system, they live in rivers so they can move upstream, they can move downstream. So it's very hard to estimate numbers. In one river, let alone their entire range, which is as I said, is in Northern Queensland down to Tasmania. So we know for some localized areas that there are declines happening and we know like they're threatening processes. So if we think about in Australia, we have a lot of big dams which overlap the distribution of the platypus. So we have issues with water regulation, you know, platypus is there dependent on both the river and also the health of the riparian vegetation. So the vegetation alongside rivers where we have a lot of clearing, we have a lot of sedimentation, urbanization, pollution, predators and the big one is climate change really here in Australia. So there've been around for millions of years there well adapted to our environment. They know floods, they know fires, they know droughts. But the problem that we're seeing is the increased frequency and intensity of these events and they're kind of occurring back to back. So you know, in the last 10 years, we've had some of the worst flooding on records, we've had the worst bushfires on records and we've had some of the worst droughts. So for an animal that depends on waterways, that is a huge problem. And so we suspect that populations are declining. They're not currently listed as a threatened species which we're trying to get them listed out because we want them to have the maximum amount of protection. We don't want to end up in a situation where they become too far gone and they're listed as a threatened species. And by the time we try to enact any conservation management, they're kind of already beyond that point of no return. So we're really trying to implement some conservation strategies before it's too late. Well Meg Shooter asked how close to our way to getting them on the IUCN red list and asked if the recent findings of drugs and PFAS and microplastics in the platypus population would that help get them on the list? And I understand that they absorb a lot of the medications that are in the waterways as well, right? Yeah, so there's a lot of research coming up about that. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn't feed directly into a nomination under any of the categories for IECN or even our Commonwealth legislation here in Australia. So that stuff is really reliant on providing evidence of declines in numbers, declines in range. Is it a small population size or can you provide modeling that suggests that this animal is going to go extinct within X and Antibus? So we put together a submission in 2021 to have it listed as a threatened species under both the IECN criteria and our Commonwealth legislation. But as I said, it's hard to get the data, it's hard to get the data across the entire range. That nomination was knocked back on the basis of data deficiency. With I guess they said that there is obvious threats impacting the population, but the data is not strong enough to have it listed at this stage. So yeah, we're still fighting for it. We're collecting as much data as we can and we'll keep pushing until it gets the protection that it deserves. Erin White said, please let them be okay. And Lunar Crumpet said, as an Australian who has seen platypus is in captivity and once a few tiny splashes and a dark shape and a creek, I want to know how can we help? Yeah, so I guess for Australians there's a few things. So when we're doing these nominations or when we're trying to quantify changes in number and distribution, we can't just rely on our own capture data. You know, I said it's incredibly time consuming, it's expensive, they're widespread. So the number one thing people can do is report their sightings. If you Google platypus watch, it'll take you to a forum you can fill out to give the wens and the wares and the majesty and the details of your platypus sighting. We can kind of use that data to make an attempt to quantify those changes. So if you see a platypus upload your sightings, it's super helpful for us. It gives us really a much better understanding of where they occur and in what numbers. I would also recommend if you can, if you live near any rivers, pick up any rubbish, if you see like circular items, so we're talking like hair ties, rubber bands, anything circular that might entangle a platypus, kind of make sure you cut them up before they go into the bin and then remove any like fishing lines. So if you fish, if you utilize rivers, anything like that, make sure you take those fishing line because we do see, unfortunately, a lot of platypus is they get entangled and they drown. And then I think like joining community groups that are getting involved with like replanting, so you know, re vegetation, I said platypus, they really need those nice banks to build their boroughs. So we really want to try and plant more trees, plant more vegetation that's going to hold that soil together, that's going to help them, you know, create their boroughs and also encourage all those lovely water bugs back into the system that they need to eat. And when you say water bugs, do you mean a lot of different bugs that live in the water, or do you mean specifically like, because we have these things called water bugs here and like toe-biter, but I think you must mean like a lot of different kinds. Yeah, so macro and vertebrate water bugs, they'll pretty much eat like whatever's around, to be honest, the kind of like a generalist. They've got a few species that they're kind of really keen on, but yeah, generally whatever's available, like, you know, they can't really distinguish between different species with their bill, so they're kind of just snapping up whatever's around. Just like little pack man. Yeah, it's like a big, pretty much, kind of little sweeties. And I mean, you have arguably one of the coolest jobs on the planet. If I could be you researching a platypus or like in space, like hands down, take your life, like how amazing is other than the car upholstery issue, 10 out of 10. Yeah, so amazing animal to work on, so yeah, very lucky. But I always ask at the end, something's got to suck. What sucks. What is it? Is there anything? Is it the poo? Oh, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of things. You know, like that, I think, you know, there's this conception that, oh, a cute platypus is like best job in the world, which don't get me wrong, it is, but you know, it's also a hard work, like, we're out there in the night. We're wet. We're freezing, you know, it's long hours. We work all through the night and all through the day sometimes. And then there is also, it's not all field work, you know, we have to come back, we have to sit at the desk and write the grants to get the money to do the research, you know, and then write our publications. So there's both sides of it, like I said, it's the best job in the world, but I think everyone that has a job thinks that there's parts that they could change. But to be honest, all that stuff for me kind of makes it more worthwhile. Like we have this saying, you know, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the reward. So yeah, we really enjoy what we do. What is the biggest reward? What do you love the most about them or about the job? I love getting people excited about platypus. And I think that has the real role on effect to caring about like our natural environments here. Like it's a real flag, ship species, you know, like people might not know that they have platypus in their local creek or, you know, in their local community. But once you kind of educate them about that and they learn, you know, like all the things that are impacting this amazing animal, I feel like it really inspires them to make kind of on-ground change. You know, if they're just changing one thing, if they're just, they stop dumping their rubbish or they plant a few trees. Like I feel like the platypus, it really kind of is a catalyst for these on-ground conservation actions. And I really love to see that unfold. You know, I love that it inspires people to get involved in science and conservation. Oh, for sure. I mean, can't imagine seeing a flip-flop and platypus in the creek and all that. It will lose my shit. It will lose my mind. Yeah. Well, this has been thrilling. I didn't know I could love them more. Please tell it that we're rooting for them and that they don't have to wear their footwear. They could take it off. We'll do. I'll name my next one, Alex. Oh, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat. Gladys. So ask Ornitho Ricanological People unorthodox questions because they can illuminate your curiosity. It's like a black light. Thank you so much, Dr. Taneel Hawk, for not only being on allergies, but for everything you do to keep these floppy, sloppy little puzzles alive and happy. For more on Dr. Hawk and the platypus conservation initiative, you can see the links in the show notes. There are also links to our spin-off classroom safe versions of allergies called Smologies, Smologies, where we get podcasts. Merch is at oligiesmerch.com. You can join patreon.com slash allergies and perhaps hear your name or your voice on the show. And thank you also for all the lovely reviews. We are at oligies on Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm Allie Ward at both Aaron Talberg, Admin's the oligies podcast Facebook group, Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts, Kelly Ardwyer does the website, Noel Dilworth does our diurnal and nocturnal calendars as scheduling producer, Den Leedor of our Stinkyboro is managing director Susan Hale and stitching the incongruous pieces together each week, our Jake Chafee and lead editor Mercedes-Mateland of Mateland audio. Nick Thorvern to the theme music, if you stick around to the very end, you know I may tell you a secret. This week it's simple, it's hopefully life altering, but if you are a person who struggles with anxiety, as is me, your father, word, dad, one way to cut that anxiety by like 50% is to quit coffee maybe or whatever source of caffeine is electrocuting your system. Go half-calf, don't have a second cup, you're like dad, what's the data? Well start with the 2024 Frontiers in Psychology Paper, caffeine intake and anxiety, a meta-analysis which looked at hundreds of people in eight different studies and turned out the very like, yeah, conclusion saying that results confirm that caffeine intake is associated with an elevated risk of anxiety and healthy individuals without psychiatric disorders, especially when the intake dose is greater than 400 milligrams. And I know that you know this, it's very like, very broad knowledge, but it's one of those things that we're like, the least you can do for yourself is take a scientific approach, give yourself the gift of less caffeine and reading a book. I know that you know this, but take this as a sign to give it a try, you deserve it, we all need it. So do I, with that. Bye-bye.