Why Your Child Thinks Reading Is Boring—And How to Make It Magical | Charlotte Mason Episode

What kind of culture do you think that we're rebuilding with families who homeschool? A culture of delight and wonder. There is so much to know. There's so much to do that life is, it feels always too short. I think so often for me in school, it was, how can I get the A in the fastest way possible doing the least amount of work? And, you know, what is the point of that? And instead, it's that every day can matter and be one of interest and ideas. Even though Mason says that children are born with imagination or the ability to reason, the love of knowledge, that those things can be stamped out over time. And I think we do have a generation that is primed to potentially have lost their love of knowledge. In my family, my husband and I, we knew from the beginning that we wanted children with bright eyes. They have interest and they're very interesting. And you don't need traditional schooling to do that. Education in America was never supposed to feel like this. Somewhere along the way, it stopped forming thinkers and started manufacturing compliant, screen-tethered kids trained to sit still, perform on cue, and stay distracted, while curiosity, wonder, and self-governance quietly fade. Reading, once the gateway to imagination and thought, has become a chore so many kids actively hate. And the data backs it up. Roughly two-thirds of American public school students are not reading at grade-level proficiency. Parents sense it every day. Even if they can't yet put words to what feels so deeply off, they know something isn't right with school. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Amy Snell and Celeste Cruz from the Charlotte Mason Educational Center, two women who have spent decades living, studying, and applying an entirely different vision for education. Amy is the academic director of the Charlotte Mason Educational Center and has been immersed in the Charlotte Mason movement for nearly 20 years, homeschooling her own five children, including two graduates, while guiding families around the world. Celeste, on the other hand, is the executive director of the Charlotte Mason Educational Center, a mother of 11, and has spent over two decades translating Charlotte Mason's philosophy into a real, livable education for modern families. In this conversation, we get into why less school can actually produce better results, how habits, not behavior charts, shape a child's character, and why every form of education is forming values, whether it admits it or not. We talk screens, boredom, nature, what a living book is, ADHD, teens who already hate school, how single parents can homeschool, and the fear every mom has that, well, I just can't homeschool because I'm not qualified. If you've ever felt pulled toward homeschooling but felt overwhelmed when you try to think about how to get started, this conversation will give you language clarity and a picture of what education rooted in truth, beauty, and goodness can actually look like. Watch this episode on the Real Alex Clark YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. They've got video too. Make sure to leave us a five-star review. Tell everybody what sort of education style your family uses. You can continue the discussion in the Cute Servatives Facebook group. Please welcome Amy Snell and Celeste Cruz from the Charlotte Mason Educational Center to Culture Apothecary. What is the Charlotte Mason Educational Center? The Charlotte Mason Educational Center is a nonprofit that wants to support homeschooling parents in being able to educate their children for a way of life. We try to focus on our curriculum, but then really providing formation, resources, community, because it's a hard thing to educate your kids at home. It's a hard thing to raise children, and we feel that we're better when we do it together. What is modern American education getting wrong about children? Charlotte Mason's first principle is that children are persons. And it seems like an obvious thing. But right now when we see that children are really suffering in so many ways, they have anxiety, depression, they lack friendships, they feel pressured and anxiety, that we think that there is a better approach to giving them an education for a full life. And what are each of your jobs at the Charlotte Mason Educational Center? So I'm the executive director and, you know, we lead a team of homeschooling mothers, consultants, other educators to offer events as well as create our resources and curriculum. I am the academic director. So I have a lot of fun tasks, getting to write the curriculum and choose books, but then really deciding what our content will be for our mother's education course. What themes do we think this year would be good for our community? Planning out the content for our retreats, all of those sorts of things. Do you think that we are getting to a point where college is really overrated? Yeah, I think that it's important for parents to consider the child that they have in front of them and what are their gifts? What are they meant to do in the world? And where is the best way for them to move forward on that path? And to not think in such a monolithic way about that these are the steps for a happy life. And that I think the homeschooling movement really has been to question a lot about education and schools and college as well. I think Mason has a unique offering for us when it comes to thinking about a child's path in life. I think starting with this idea of children are born persons, she has this dual conception, which is that children are really called to as a person, as a human. They have God-given gifts and facility. They come to us with imagination. They come to us with ability to reason. They come to us with a love of knowledge, a desire for knowledge, which I think, you know, modern education doesn't believe that anymore. These are all things that the child comes fully prepared into the world with just by nature of being a person. And yet, on the other hand, they also are a person in the sense of being an individual. So they also have unique gifts and callings, unique interests that they take the education that might be standard given to them and do different things with it. And so when we think about their future life, we hold those two things in common as well, that we know that we're not trying to put out cookie cutter children, right? That a method of education should respect that. Yes, we want to give them a broad curriculum that suits all children. And yet we also want to let them engage with it in an individual way. And so what that provides then is that we have students, you know, in our program, some do go to onto college and do all kinds of interesting things and take it in a variety of directions. And even though it is a curriculum that is heavy on the humanities, it also includes science and math and a lot of hands on work, handicrafts, and it really suits children for whatever they would like to do. And so we have people majoring in, you know, all kinds of different subjects, but then we also have families with students that go into the military, that go into the trades, that choose a different life, that want to homeschool their own children. And being open to that idea as parents can sometimes be hard in our culture just because it is this message that, you know, the path to success is college. Right. And I think for some children, that's going to be true. And then for other children, that isn't true, that there are lots of different options now. I mean, the educational landscape has changed so much. Yes. Even in, you know, the upper years. And that's a great thing for children and for families. So does the Charlotte Mason curriculum go K through 12 or is it just little years? Yes, I think that we really want to help families see that this is something you can start with and go all the way through. And really what she was doing in the later years is even more exciting to us in many ways that there is this sense that in the morning hours is what we recommend that they have like a dedicated study walking through their subjects. But then the afternoon is for what Mason called occupations and that the things that they want to do and spend time finding meaning in that they get to pursue that. And so it's neat to see, and we both always say in our families, we basically are working through and they've read the same books and used the same math curriculum. And yet then because, so we have this like shared connection of our family life. But on the other hand, then they have, each one is so unique and they're going in very different paths. I would have loved that when I was in high school, the time to kind of focus on occupation. What I ended up doing was I had a couple spots open where I could have electives and I chose the same elective. And guess what I chose? I did multiple radio TV classes. That's what I was doing. And then this is what I do for a living. So I am one of those people that knew at a very young age in a roundabout way what I wanted to do. It's funny because I thought I was going to pursue a career in a different form of media. I thought it was going to be written media in fashion journalism. But I knew that broadcasting, all that was very interesting to me and I liked it. So, you know, I ended up years later kind of honing that in and realizing that this is the path that I wanted to take. But still, the interest was there. And so, yeah, I did dedicate my afternoons basically to an occupation I found interesting. A lot of parents, I think, do believe that something is off with their kid's school, but they can't necessarily name it. And when they think about pulling them out for an alternative form of education, they just feel really overwhelmed. It seems super scary. They're like, what if I mess my kid up? What if they don't learn as well if I take them out of the public school setting or traditional, even a private school setting? And so they end up staying. But what is the risk for those kids, you think, to stay in a traditional form of education? Now, there could be pros and cons, but how would you weigh that out? I think that we always want to look to see, is our family flourishing? Where are they thriving? and to start to consider, are there other ways of doing this? When you see a child that the pressure is too much, the friendships, those kinds of peer pressure, things like that are not going well. In my family, my husband and I, we talk about, like we knew from the beginning that we wanted children with bright eyes and that that is looking for that spark in our children. And that's what we know that they then have this, They have interest and they're very interesting. And that is what we want to foster. And you don't need traditional schooling to do that. That is the moral of the story of this episode. We want to raise kids who are not only interesting, but they are interested. I love that. You know, I think that even though Mason says that children are born with, like I said, imagination or the ability to reason, the love of knowledge, that those things can be stamped out over time. That they're like habits in that if, you know, for lack of use, they get weaker. And I think we do have a generation that is primed to potentially have lost their love of knowledge. Right. And so in the classroom, different things get substituted in for the love of knowledge in a traditional classroom. So, for example, we'd say like prize, place, power. There's other motivations that a teacher then is forced basically to substitute because the child's love of knowledge hasn't been nurtured and allowed to help them to grow. So I think that is a danger. Children can, in that environment, still live a full life and, you know, go on to do great things. Sure. But hopefully it's not. I was in public school my entire life. All of us were public school. But I think hopefully it's not in spite of their education that they become what they are. Right. Like we hope that their education helps them to become what they are. And I think a lot of times the stories that we hear when we think of ourselves, we can think of ways that in spite of our education, we retained our interest in X, Y or Z, you know, in radio and film or in English for myself, that that isn't what we hope for our children. That's not the ideal. And we really are about, yes, being real, but also pursuing ideals. Like, I think that that's an important thing for us not to lose sight of. I think there are a lot of conservative Christian families who are a little bit in denial. They're like, you know, what is the big deal with public school? It's just academics. And the reality is that every education type is forming values, whether they admit it openly or not. Would you agree or disagree? I think definitely from the books we choose to what we do with them, the conversations that are directed around them. all of that is part of the formation of character of the person. And so I think in the last few years, more families are getting a sense of what's happening in the classroom. But we think that all parents are the primary educators of their children. This is this God-given thing of what it means to be a parent. And we should be actively involved in that. And so we hope that we can encourage families, whether their kids are in school or you're homeschooling, that's the role we want to take. That's really led us to start the Charlotte Mason Educational Center so we could support families in trying to do that. If we think about school sort of being compartmentalized and that it doesn't necessarily have an effect on our children, we have to look at how we think character actually is formed then. And I think that Mason has this line where she says, education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life. So meaning that we are educated by the atmosphere that we are in, and that would be kind of like the environment, not aesthetically, but the thought environment, the ideas that surround us. We're also educated by our habits. So the things that we do every day and the habits that are set up in the classroom, and then we're educated by the ideas that are presented to us. And so among those three things really helps to form our character. Now, some of the time that the child spends will be at home. And so they will have that atmosphere and discipline and life. But then the atmosphere and discipline life of school are also or any other, you know, situation in which, you know, we put our children will go toward their formation. Like it is it's kind of it's something you can't escape, is what she would say, that it is atmosphere, discipline in life. That's just the way education works. And so we can work with that or we can work. We can sort of fight against that. And working with that would then be, how do I set up an atmosphere that best supports my child's growth and the values that we want to cultivate with them? How do I, you know, set up habits for our family that lead them in that direction? And what sort of ideas do I want them engaging with? Those kinds of questions, like Amy said, it doesn't matter whether your children are in school or not, you should always be asking those. And then you can decide like how what answer makes sense for your family. And we really do find that homeschooling allows so many opportunities in that vein. Speaking of habits, what habits in the current school system unintentionally are being trained into kids? Charlotte Mason says that the most important intellectual habit is the habit of attention. And that that is we think through the methods that are being used, the pace of the day, the pace of what the reading materials, that is just something that we are losing across age groups that we can't attend to what is in front of us. And that has such a huge effect in our lives. What is wrong with the current pace of a school day in an average public school in America? It goes wrong in both directions. And on the one hand, we think that the children can be forced to be too long in a subject because we have to have this factory model and that Mason actually recommends short lessons that alternate in, you know, from like reading a book to doing hands-on work to going to a science lesson, then back to a history lesson. And that alternation in short doses means that you can actually accomplish a lot in a school day. But then children need a lot of time to choose play when they're little, to be outside, to have time for imagination, art, handicrafts, and have a longer periods of time for that. And so that's what homeschooling allows. We try to really help moms find a good schedule that will work for a family that has lots of kids and everybody needs to do math. Everybody has to do their house chores, you know, all of those kinds of things. Is boredom in childhood an enemy or a gift? I think that unstructured time is a gift. Now, whether that naturally leads to boredom or not, I think it depends on the child. So for a child who is used to stretches of unstructured time that then they are at liberty to fill, they find themselves rarely bored. that it is something that they're used to having like your boredom is something that tends to be cultivated through giving you know children um activities that are not age appropriate and then the mind wanders like amy was saying when your tension is not at its full so in that way i think that it's it's like you know how they say children that are bored or boring yes i say that It goes with Amy's description before. If you're if you have interests, you're interesting. I think they go together. And so, you know, it's like boredom. I think I don't find bored children very often in my home. Like they have a lot of things that they do. Do you have parents that transition over from a traditional school setting into homeschool Charlotte Mason and they're really worried about unstructured time? How do you advise them on how to let go of being like my kid isn't scheduled to do something every hour? Yeah, it can be hard to see at first and that just be willing to take the time to let that there's things going on inside that you can't see. And that at first it might seem like what is there's nothing happening here. When is my child going to have that spark again? When are they going to, you know, I thought they would start to love reading and choose activities. But if we have been in this like constant entertainment constant way of making school flashy And you know if they especially if they using two computer based of learning and and things like that that there is kind of this deprogramming that has to happen and to make space for that How much of an issue are screens in an educational setting? Because most schools now are implementing screen use throughout their day to day. It's a shocking thing when there is so little scientific support for screens. And, you know, we think of them in our own homes, that these are tools that really can help us in life to have technology. Our families aren't like completely, you know, without tech. But on the other hand, to say that that's going to be our mode to go through life and learning. We want our children to have real books, real things to study from, you know, for science to be doing hands-on work and they're dissecting things in high school, but we're outside and observing insects and trees for science. that is way more valuable for the child's soul, for their ability to observe and attend. But then also you just see that they're happy and they flourish and that a screen cannot give in the same way. Okay, this makes me laugh. I get a lot of hate online, trolls, you know, people offended by my political views or whatever, you name it. And their go-to insult for some reason is to accuse me of having Botox. First of all, I have not gotten Botox since August of 2023. And by the way, it lasts like three months. So I will take that compliment because honestly, I think it's from the Blue Beauty drink from Taylor Dukes Wellness. This is anti-aging from the inside out. It's powered by blue spirulina, bovine collagen, biotin, and amla. Real superfoods that work at the cellular level to nourish your hair, skin, nails, and even your gut. The collagen is the hero here. It supports elasticity. It helps smooth the appearance of fine lines, strengthens nails, supports healthy hair growth. All the things we're trying to accomplish as women. And it actually tastes really good. It's really lightly sweet. It's super refreshing. There's a hint of citrus from real ingredients only. Nothing artificial. No neon nonsense. I mix it with water every afternoon for hydration or I'll make it into a little mocktail moment when I want something fun but still functional. You can add some cherry juice. 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From there, you get a fully personalized health plan, custom supplements like their longevity blend, nutritional guidance, hormone therapies, access to advanced diagnostics like the Dutch test. You hear me talk about that hormone test all the time. You can do that. You can get your gut tested. I mean, all sorts of things like your environment. Find out if there's toxic glyphosate levels in your body. Everything is tailored. Nothing is one size fits all. And the Jevity app keeps it all in one place. your data, your plan, your care team, so you're not juggling spreadsheets, portals, and half answers. For $129 a month, you get comprehensive testing, ongoing care, and 40% off supplements and prescriptions. Use code Alex for 20% off your first purchase at GoJavity.com. That's code Alex for 20% off your first purchase at GoJavity.com. Does nature help kids learn math? Charlotte Mason says that nature is the best teacher for the young child, that nature can kind of give this whatever the next step they need. I've run a nature club for kids on Friday afternoons for over a decade. And it's so neat to see children out and having these discoveries, these amazing moments with a bird or a grasshopper. It helps the children develop open eyes. And Mason talks about, you know, the child, Mr. Eyes and Mr. No Eyes. and this idea that we can go through life without eyes to see the things right around us. And I really related to that because, you know, as a child, I didn't really have any experience with nature and, you know, really could probably say like a crow and a seagull and, you know, it was very limited. And was amazed that once I started adventuring with my children, all the things that were out there, and it's one of those that you realize, oh, well, they were there all along. I just didn't have the eyes to see them, right? Like when you're primed for something, all of a sudden your experience is so much richer. And the more that you do it, the more you see. And so I find that, you know, living in suburbia, you don't have to go out to, you know, the county parks, the fields, the state beaches, and to be able to see amazing things on a daily basis. And that's really, you know, I think when you ask, like, does nature teach math? I do think nature teaches a little bit of everything. Because the person who is primed to experience and appreciate nature to really see it takes those observation skills, takes that habit of attention that they've cultivated into every other subject that they take on, whether that's history or it's math or it's art, that they are a better person for it. And that goes for the four-year-old child as much as for the 44-year-old mother that I think that's, I think so many moms in our nature clubs have said that for them it's transformational as well, that it's something that has helped them grow as much as their children. And that's really exciting to think at, you know, later in life that you can still be growing on a daily basis in ways you never expected that homeschooling would allow. Right. That wasn't the reason I homeschooled, but it's like one of the reasons I keep homeschooling. Yeah. And then each of the subjects, because we use the same method with the Mason approach, really do reinforce each other. So the children are, when they're doing nature study, they keep notebooks where they're recording their findings. And so they're classifying, they're keeping bird counts, all things. That's not their math time. They still have math time. But in this hands-on way, they really are doing a lot of math in nature time. But then, you know, there is this relationship rather than, you know, keeping everything so segmented like we do in our modern system. When you're doing Charlotte Mason Method, there's a lot of focus on books. So I have a question. Is it OK if those children are reading books on tablets or Kindles or does it have to be a physical book? We prefer physical books. I think that we always want to give the children the best we can give. But there are times where families can't get access to particular books. When you're traveling right now, Celeste, kids are on a road trip with their dad. And we were talking about the ability to bring books along or not or use a Kindle. I enjoy reading books on my tablet. I also enjoy reading physical books. But I do feel that they are different experiences. So that's something that you feel it yourself. So is an audiobook. Right. And so I don't think, you know, we can place value on one or the other, but really it's just kind of acknowledging that those are different ways of engaging with a book. And so for school time, the thing that I notice when I read from a physical book is I have a different sense of context where I am in the book. That gets a little lost when I'm reading on a tablet. and then like kind of the the way that I you might skim across words on a page on a tablet versus on a physical page turning the act of turning the page feels different so I think acknowledging those differences and then thinking what makes the most sense for a school book and that might be a different answer that you would have for a leisure book and you know there's different ways I think of engaging with books and it's not necessarily one or the other but that we also prefer physical books for school for somebody who's never heard of Charlotte Mason What problem with children or education was she trying to solve? I think that at the time that she was writing, she was actually addressing a lot of different social issues that she saw. And surprisingly, they are still issues today or maybe unsurprisingly. She talks about lots of different philosophies that were coming out, and some of those were more child-led philosophies, as well as, you know, the Industrial Revolution happening and the idea of factories and machination and what would that mean for education, a standardization of different forms of learning. And those are all things still relevant to us today. I think she also talked a lot about parenting and talks about permissive parenting and as opposed to authoritarian parenting. And in each of these, she definitely critiques one side or the other. But in the end, her solution is often a middle way. And so it's kind of goes back to that idea of what does it mean that a children is a person? Like, yes, it means that they have unique things, but it also means that they have certain needs and we have certain duties toward them. It's the same thing when she's looking at these social issues that there's like a middle way that she can offer that really gets to back to natural law, back to the heart of really Christian thought of what a conception of a person is about what would our goals as parents are goals for education. So I think that the things that she was responding to, although they were unique to her time, both the solution and the ways she kind of comes to it are still relevant to ours. How does less school produce better results? Well, Mason says that she has a method whereby teachers teach less and children learn more. and we really see that when we allow children to do their own that she calls it self-education that then they are able to retain this not as information but it becomes part of who they are and that we really know nothing unless it's in the answer to a question that we ask ourselves and so we want to have children who have bright minds that they're asking questions they have a sense of wonder, and they want to pursue that. And that really questions lead to more questions, and we can go deeper in all subject areas. So I really feel like there is this chance that we have to rethink educational approaches. And Mason has the answer for that she really thought through all the subjects that we teach and how we go about teaching them. And I think with a method like narration, for example, which is a method that she uses across all of the subjects, and that it's a good example of how you can spend less time in the lesson and get more out of it. What do you mean? What does narration mean? So narration is kind of the art of telling back. And it's a way that the student takes in some material and that might be a reading from a book, but it could also be a picture that they're, you know, painting they're studying or a piece of music, something in art, in nature from their observations. They take in that material and then they assimilate it through having to tell it back in their own words or in their own way. And that could be drawn. It doesn't mean words. It could be drawings or lists or in the younger years acting out the story they just heard. So, you know, it can even be drama and such. But that process sounds deceptively simple. And yet, and it is simple to implement. And yet the mental work behind that process is extremely involved, engaged, powerful. and what it allows the student to do is in a single reading of a text to then walk away from that text with it part of them that they can recall it weeks later on an exam and we know with our children it'll be like years later something comes out and we think I didn't know you remembered King Alfred and the Cakes from back in first grade or whatever it is. What she thought is if you rely on a single reading then you can save so much time in the school day. I think cramming, rereading again. Oh, now we're going to outline it. Now we're going to read it again and really try to study it, whatever that means, with school books. That's how people use books in regular schools. And this is totally different. It says, give your full attention, read a passage that you are able to attend to completely for the amount of time that you can, and you narrate it back, and that's all. You narrate, you put in your notebook, whatever form of narration takes, and then you move on to the next passage. And so you can imagine the amount of progress you're able to make just from that kind of slow, simple work. It's a totally different way of approaching education than this like revision, revision, go over it again, cram type of scenario that especially at the high school level, like even at the high school level, students are doing this kind of work. And it's amazingly powerful mentally. What do people who are fans of other educational styles and curriculums say or pigeonhole Charlotte Mason to be that you disagree with. One, there's a misunderstanding that it's only for the early years and people stop there. They think that the children do play outside all day and have long hours of nature study, but that they don't get to do real science or look into actually what the academic program was. So that's why really developing a good curriculum was so important to us. But then they don't understand when she says that she respects the personhood of the child, that then she really does believe that the parent, the teacher has an authority and what their role would be. I think that's a big one. Right. Her idea of deputed authority, this idea that it isn't that we allow the children to just grow up along their own lines, that we are given them as parents and have particular duties toward them. And it is to help them build the habits of a good life and to introduce them to wonderful ideas, to create an environment where they can really thrive, but also grow in their relationship with God, relationship with others. So that idea is our authority comes from our God-given role as the parents. And so whenever we are helping our children to form good habits and such, that the idea is we're not doing it for our own benefit, We're not doing it for our own whims of how we want our home to be. But with this like keen sense that the authority is given to us by God and that we also, you know, will answer to him about the ways that, you know, we have served our children well. So it is, I think that that is something that people don't understand if they kind of think that she's more of a child led, that's common or like a free kind of the children kind of do their own thing and lead the education themselves. I think another thing that people hear about her love of living books, and then they can sometimes think that we teach everything but through stories. And that wasn't necessarily what Mason thought of a living book, that definitely great classic stories are living books. And we love classic stories. And the children do have tales and literature all the way through from K to 12 and in the early years, too. But there's also living science books. There's living history books that are not historical fiction, for example. What is that? This idea that there are living books and that's how children should learn? Well, I think it's easy when you look at a book that's not living to know, right? A textbook where you have multiple writers then go through multiple editors and the information is pre-digested into these little sound bites that you can't really take in and have this understanding of. And instead, we would want to have this one single voice that is speaking from experience, from their knowledge, their passion, and being able to then express that. But you can then have a living book in science, in math, in history, right, as well as, of course, literature to really then be captivated by subjects that we thought were dry and boring and dead in school. A living book helps you to see the living thought of the author or the people from the past as real people. That means that they were flawed, that they had things that were like us, that there were ways, though, that they were exceptional, too. And so we really find that the Charlotte Mason student has a gratitude for life, for the past, and the sense that they have a role to play in the world around them, that their life has meaning. And I think that comes through living books, but then the living method. Then as our children have been getting older and leaving the home to see then that they are going out trying to do something with their lives to help others and to make a difference. So what's an example of a living book for like a nine-year-old, average nine-year-old? What would you recommend? We love to have the kids read fairy tales and myths when they are young. And that really builds this imagination, a moral imagination of right and wrong. Like Rumble Stillskin. Right. Or Norse myths or, you know, the stories that were real classics that even of American, you know, past. Like Pocahontas or something? Like those old folk tales are, you know, so neat to read and tall tales. So those would be in that kind of literature realm. But also classic novels, too, that you would think of like, you know, Francis Hodgson Burnett or Noel Streetfield or C.S. Lewis or all of the kind of the classic children's authors that have these stories that have lasted through the generations. And I think a lot of times we do reach for older books because those are often time tested and they speak to, you know, they're universal in some way. So would Dr. Seuss fit in for the really little kids or is that not count? Like in Charlotte Mason, like, do you guys like Dr. Seuss or is that like too flimsy silly? I don't think we have any Dr. Seuss on our program. But we do think that there can be if a parent loves a book, when they read that book, they do make it living for the child. But I think if the test is, if you don't like reading that book aloud, you find it silly you find it boring you not present when you reading to the child that a really good test that it isn something that is meaningful And we rather read There are so many books in the world Why settle for, you know, something like that? But there can be silly books with kids, right? It's not a living book. Serious. We have to always be serious. And I think we also see that books have appeal in different ways. So, for example, like if I were to read Dr. Seuss with my little ones, it's really for the wordplay and the rhymes and how creative that those can be. It's not necessarily for the plot line. And so that's the that's what the student would take from that then of like this ability to be fun with words. I think books that have something unique to offer the child can serve a special function. And so even if they aren't part of the program, that there is, you know, this opportunity for this wide leisure reading. But I think especially with the younger children, that reading allow time with the parents to find those books that are real gems that we want to make sure that we get to share with the kids. You know, like they're only a little so long, except that the good picture book really endures through the ages. Right. And the older kids enjoy that, too. So I think that's another good test. One of you or both of you have kids that have graduated high school now. Yes, both of us. Okay. So those kids, I'm just curious, for the teen years, what have they said, oh, you know what book I loved that we read? Well, like what in their teen years, what have been some of the favorites? My son really has gone with not just he loves philosophy, but then he also really is into reading books about nature and trees. And then like we have a book on our program, The Secret Network of Nature. So he has this other whole route of his life that was a surprise that developed later. And so what's he wanting to do with his life? Right now, he is a real mix. So we'll see. But he is into philosophy, law, and then this like kind of, you know, stewarding our land better approach as well. So it'll be interesting to see what comes of that. Maybe like an environmental lawyer or something. That sounds, you know, what about your kids? Have they said any favorite books? For sure. And I think it's really hard to choose, especially when you get to the teen years and you've read so much good literature and within the subject, you know, across the subjects. And that they read so widely so that you have a kid that is like, well, you know, in science, I'm reading this. But I love this novel and this novelist they're really passionate about. Right. But poetry. Right. At the end of each term, I like to ask my children to choose their two favorite books from the term and kind of take a photo to document their favorites from that year. And it always surprises me what they pull out. So, you know, my daughter consistently for years in a row chose the Oxford History of the American People by Samuel Morrison, which is like a college textbook. I mean, it's like this large. But she loved that book. And it was really Morrison's voice. And she likes history. But it wasn't historical fiction, which she loved too, but it was a different kind of love. But then I think she, you know, Plutarch is always a favorite. And you would think, what American teenager is going to choose Plutarch as a favorite book? It's just not a common choice. But I think that we see students at that age loving Plutarch, loving the Iliad or Gerard Manley Hopkins poetry. Those are all favorites from my children. biology texts, and they're not necessarily science-minded. 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Use code Alex for 10% off. That's yayzebra.com. Code Alex for 10% off. So what do you say to a parent who this is the first time they've ever even heard of Charlotte Mason? I mean, they have no idea what we're talking about, but they're hearing this. They're like, OK, so I love that there's this focus on literature, but this doesn't really sound rigorous academically. I mean, what about math and science and history? I mean, how are your kids learning these other subjects, especially math with the Charlotte Mason method? Mason really thought that if the subject was taught in first like this, the way that the is true to that field. then it would be living. And, you know, we always say in math, so often the way it's being taught in elementary schools looks nothing like what a mathematician does. And in all of the subjects where Mason really has the student, you know, reading the best living books in that subject, but then also taking on doing the kind of work that would be done in that field. The key thing, like within math is that they are narrating it. So not just answering problems like we would do, you know, in my math program where you have your 30 questions, the teacher presents it, then you do your 30 questions. But can you actually at the end explain the concept and narrate that well? It does, I think, explain why then they have this real assimilation of ideas. It is something that we try to help families with at the CBC, because it is true that when you get to high school, all these subjects come up that feel really intimidating. Like you're like, how am I going to get my lab credits to graduate this child and, you know, and math and such. So we have a neat group of high school families, but what we do offer is the support for them to, for example, implement labs at home. So we do have a great living and, you know, biology book, for example. And then we have the resources for doing the dissections at home, the video links to go with them if you need some additional support. The same thing in physics, the same thing in chemistry. And that kind of support, I think, at the high school level, you know, in the early years, you may feel like, OK, right, I can handle this on my own. I can I can teach someone how to, you know, add and subtract. But then when you get to the upper years, that support becomes really valuable, at least for me. So I think that that joining together with other families in a cooperative setting can help with a lot of those types of subjects when things feel intimidating to do it together and have one mom sort of preparing that. And it's interesting when we get together in groups and do community learning, how people's experience starts to jump out. And you didn't realize that your best friend was a biologist in her prior life or your other friend was, you know, taught composers or was a piano teacher and now teaches composers study to your students. Not that that's necessary, but in the high school years, it does give you some confidence and is like a unique opportunity for teens. How is progress measured when you're homeschooling this way? Another unique part of Mason's approach is that the students did do these term exams, but they were very unique. And the questions are set in every subject. And it is actually a new learning opportunity the way that she asks the questions. We want a time at the end of every term to sift back the material and pull it together in a different view than when you're working through it slowly through the semester. And so I think then as the parent, when you can see over the course of the year how things are brought together in each of these term exams, it gives you a better understanding of actually what's happening than the ups and downs of every individual day. I try to encourage parents to see is the most frustrating day is actually a lot of learning in the actual subject, let alone their character and habits and all of that is actually still a very good day. But actually probably a lot of math knowledge is happening, even though they don't get it, they're frustrated, there might be tears that we don't have to immediately think that this approach is bad or I need to, you know, maybe we should shift to finding some, you know, online program that makes this, you know, with videos and fun. Like, no, like, it's okay that there's frustration because that is also usually a point where we are learning and about to have a breakthrough. So, you know, how can we take a posture to support the child in that moment? We don't want them to be crying every day or something along those lines. But the progress that Mason recommends is that we just see that they're working through their books, and then it's up to the child what they're going to do with it. And that means that we don't give grades because we're not assessing from the outside what they're doing according to some standard. We think this is a beautiful program. We're going to, you know, set up the habits of our timetable, walk through these books together. And then I am offering you this education. I know that you're taking it, but it's up to the individual child what they do. And so it does mean that the Mason approach works with children of all abilities and interest, personalities, strengths then because of that. One of the interesting things about Mason's exams is that, as opposed to traditional exams, is that you can have two answers that are completely different and yet both are great work. The questions are written in a way that allow the student to take an angle that meets their interest in the subject, but also does pull from them, sets up an expectation that they are assimilating the material and they do need to be able to express it at the end. But in a way, it's like open enough that they can take it in a different direction. So like I, you know, looking at exam answers side by side in our home on the same book with two children about the same age and seeing how it reflects their personality. But also I'm looking for what did they get out of the material and how did they assimilate it? What were they thinking when they were writing this? And it's a more specific insight into them. And I think that Mason, instead of giving Mark's grades, they gave remarks, so comments. And I think that is kind of indicative of the dynamic between the teacher and student, that it opens up an opportunity for conversation. but I wouldn't say that it's completely free. Like in the high school years, I think what we've set up is an expectation of good work. And then in the day-to-day, that can be very free then. But the boundary kind of exists that we've developed those habits. We have the atmosphere in place. We've given them very rich texts. And so they rise to that. It's amazing how they rise to that. I think it's like hard to believe sometimes just in our engagements with children today that that would be true. And yet it is true, like that we all rise to a challenge when we feel that like our best selves are being called forth. And that's what's happening every day in the Mason classroom, that the children feel that and it's a confidence in them. If there's a parent that's interested in switching over to a Charlotte Mason curriculum, but they are convinced their child hates reading, how do you advise them? I think it's worth it to make the switch, that the answer wouldn't be to stay in a place where they hate reading and that they aren't liking school. We offer things in a way that we see across families, across the country, across the decades, centuries, really, with Mason. Families all over the world are finding a different path for learning and that children love books. And they might like some kinds of books better than others, some subjects better than others, right? There's differences, of course, but there's times where we're called to have real courage and to make a change. And to allow then the time for the seeds to be planted and to take root before you're able to actually see this blossoming flower, that doesn't mean that it isn't working. What does it mean to focus on habits and not discipline or behavior charts? When we focus on habits, there is this piece that comes that we are setting up pathways to continue to grow. And if we fail, we know how to get back up and go along the path. And Mason uses this beautiful metaphor of that as parents, we're laying down the rails. And it will lead to the child to be able to have these smooth and easy days to just be able to go along the rails of life. But it can be hard work in the beginning of laying down the rails for us. But it's really neat to see such capable kids that are able to take care of themselves, know where to find the information they're looking for and to have a confidence in themselves. And I think it's unique that the habits of school time and the habits of home life are really one in the same in the Mason Method. And so everything that it's like a unity of life that allows them to, I think, make progress more quickly in some ways. Like so if you have a particular set of habits in the classroom at school and then you come home and there's completely different expectations and a different way of approaching behavior, that is confusing to a child. And it leads, I think, to some sort of distraction in the in the pattern of growth. Whereas if the methods of the home and the methods of school are actually the same methods, but just used in a new way, it allows the child to feel a sense of cohesiveness, but also grow more quickly. And I think that the idea of, you know, behavior charts and that kind of thing is, again, not sort of looking at the child's personhood, but assuming that some kind of quantifiable schematic is going to be required to control the child. And we would think coming alongside the child, setting up good lines of habits, setting an atmosphere that supports those habits, having high expectations, but also a sense that the child and I, you know, I'm an ally of the child. We're working together toward a goal. It's just a different approach to good behavior. And what we're aiming for is not like a veneer of good behavior, but real character, you know, an actual change in who they are as a person. And it's easy to get a veneer of behavior, but it's a lot more important, meaningful to work for the character of the child. And that comes through the ideas that they take in, the atmosphere they're in and those little habits that we build, you know, day to day. What's your response to moms who say, I could never homeschool? That sounds incredibly isolating, not only for me, but also for my child. We'll never, ever see other people. It's important to see, one, with homeschooling, there allows this real relationship in the family that is so beautiful, that stays intact, that the siblings are friends, and that we have this day-to-day family life that meets a lot of our social needs. But then from there, we're able to go out with this strong understanding of who we are and the family that we're a part of and go out and make relationships. And so I think homeschool kids are famous for being able to talk to anybody, talk to adults. You know, there's that aspect. But we really try at the CMEC to help people form local communities because we think that that's important, too. And you say that they're focused on truth, beauty and goodness. Yes. What does that mean? The one model we think is easiest to start with to form a local community, a cooperative of learning is what we call these TBG groups where we pull together a fine arts curriculum. So that way, whatever families are doing at home can stay the same. But when we come together, we're going to study the great artists, composers. We're going to learn hymns. We sing folk songs. The children do poetry recitation. And with Mason's approach, it doesn't matter if you were not trained in those things. You may never have even stepped foot in an art museum or a concert hall. But you can, with her approach, and we create guides for this, have this wonderful learning time of children of all ages. And the moms are learning right alongside the children, too. So you don't have to have an education yourself to teach Charlotte Mason. You don have to have a degree in education Exactly Again partly because we think that education is self where the child is doing the work It also because we say that the books the things are their teachers. We just are setting up those relationships and helping them have the habits of their learning. So I was telling Celeste that I had never stepped foot in an art museum. And yet here we are having the last, you know, 15 years of homeschooling, studied so many artists and they're a part of the, my imagination and now love getting to travel and go to art museums all over the world and visit. When you see a painting we've studied that, you know it so well, it's like getting to see an old friend. It isn't about, you know, the sense of like being high-minded or cultured in that way. It's that this is beauty. And this artist had something to say that continues to speak to people over hundreds of years. It's this gift. Why wouldn't we want children to be able to see this art and hear this music? But Mason set it up in a way that is accessible for a five-year-old and the adult in the room, and we all get so much out of it. Everyone is sick right now. Everyone. Chances are, you are too. Your nose is doing things it shouldn't be doing. You could probably serve a soft-serve cone with those nose boogies happening up there. Uh-huh. The McFlurry machine is always broken, but not this McFlurry machine. You know what they say. If you want to make a tissue dance, put a little boogie in it. Your first mistake. 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Do you know single parents who homeschool? I think we know families of all sorts that homeschool. So how are they doing it? Because I have been informed that it is impossible for single parents homeschool that only rich, single income households can homeschool. And I have talked to so many people in my audience that have been of all, yeah, all backgrounds that are homeschooling. There's a lot of reasons why people need to be creative with their homeschooling. And I think if you're a single parent working during the day, that there are ways that you can still homeschool your children. And, you know, I think in that setting, it would depend on like a great support system and a community that you could join in with and feel that sense of support. Because it can be, I think, having, you know, the support of a spouse is really helpful. And so finding that in other ways, but then also being creative with your time, with your resources. We really have families in all settings in the CMEC. But then, you know, in our experience with homeschooling, just have met all kinds of moms who are doing and dads who are doing great work homeschooling their children. And independent of the situation that they're in, their financial situation, where they are in the world. Yeah, I think that it's accessible for everyone. And you guys have both homeschooled and you have five kids and you have 11. I do. How long is an average school day for your families? It really is based on the child's age. So the neat thing with Mason's approach is that in the early years, in early elementary school, it's about two hours of formal lessons. And then they have their occupation time where they're playing. And then that grows slowly over time. So we really have, as moms, this dedicated time in the morning with our kids that we have our phones off. We're not doing any work. You know, we're not checking Voxer or anything like that if messages are coming in. And that's dedicated to that timetable. But then the kids are playing. And that's where we're able to get our work done for the CMEC, for our family, our home. Even for the high schoolers, I think my high schoolers school day is roughly 9 a.m. to about 2 p.m. with the break for lunch. And that would include doing, you know, subjects with the family as well as like their own timetable subjects. So it includes a lot of different learning over the course of the day. And then we have a free or Fridays when we do our cooperative or our nature club. So it even allows for that additional reading for the evenings or craft work or different projects that they're working on that would, you know, extend their day in one way and yet is kind of under this category of afternoon or leisure time. So what happened when you guys had older kids who you were homeschooling, but then you had toddlers? We did all kinds of fun things with that of being able to keep those toddlers happy and occupied as well. We have things like I set up schedules where each child of the older kids would have a half hour break and they would be in charge of playing with the toddlers. So then I could do school with the others. There was times where you would do school, Celeste, in during nap time, have that dedicated time with. Yeah, I did nap time school for many years with my elementary kids. It would be they had a free morning to play with all the little ones and, you know, and just enjoy free time outdoors. And then as soon as we would get the babies down for nap, it would be like, OK, grab we're starting our timetable, grab your school books. And so we would have like a solid, you know, 12 to two with me. And then maybe an additional hour after that where they would be able to do some independent work. But I think there's lots of creative strategies with toddlers. One thing that we are really passionate about is making sure that I think there can be a sense where we're like, we just want the little ones to be quiet so we can get our school done. And we really believe that little children deserve a full life, too. And so thinking of ways that allow them to have rich, enjoyable, growth-oriented occupations that are natural to their developmental stage while also being, you know, that they can do kind of alongside while we're handling school time with our older kids. We have a kinderleben, we call it, which means child life. This kinderleben resource that is for younger children in the family. And it includes all kinds of stories, occupations. And that's really what I use now with my three and five-year-olds while I'm doing school with all the rest of the children. That they feel like they have real work to do. That's so important for young children that they feel like they have real leisure. They do get that time outdoors. So it's always a balancing act. And I think every year, you know, as children, they grow so fast when they're young. And so they're always going through different stages. And so it's definitely being flexible as the homeschool mom and thinking, you know, in each stage, what would meet our needs now? And how can I shift things to make sure that everybody is getting what they need during the school day? But then the high schoolers are so independent and responsible for their work. I think that's part of their success in whatever area they go into is that they know how to manage their time, work through books and take care of themselves. And that is isn't that like whatever profession you're in, that would be huge. Anytime that I feel like, oh, I wish there was more of me or I feel I'm spread thin. I actually see it as this opportunity for the all of the kids to really thrive and have a sense of independence, too. Does the Charlotte Mason method work well for ADHD kids? Yeah, I think we see a lot of families in the CMEC talk about this, that there's things like the short lessons, alternating lessons, allowing the child to narrate in the way that they can is a real game changer for families. The fact that the way that the methods that Mason, again, has are all built around cultivating the habit of attention is what she thought of all of that, you know, such a long time ago. And now we see so many suffering with that that it's really something to look into. Right. There's a lot of overlap between what occupational therapists recommend for ADHD children and Mason's methods with narration and short lessons. So I think that the parents who have come to us who are using consistently Mason's methods are always surprised at that. With dyslexia, for example, that there's a way that the chance for them to not in a school environment where they would say, well, if once you are falling behind in the ability to read your own texts, then you don't have access to the information in those texts anymore. And with Mason's approach, it allows the student with the teacher reading aloud, as long as they need, allows the student to still get all of the ideas while they're working on their reading skills. So it's a very naturally flexible method. And I think that a lot of the human needs that we have are attended to through the method. And so the human struggles that we have are also attended to through the method. Charlotte Mason is for you if you want a full life, that you think that there is this whole feast of ideas. There's these realms of knowledge in so many categories of the world that we want our children to be able to have an experience. And that's what the way that we set up the curriculum. We organize the day is that there is then the city of books, but then also these other aspects of learning that really make for this full life. And I think along with the habits to be able to live that life. So many of us do, you know, we are inspired, we get motivated, but then we don't have that framework. We weren't given that in the education that we had. And Mason really does that. And I would say Charlotte Mason is for you if you want to enjoy homeschooling and you want to enjoy your children. I think that's what really drew me to Mason in the first place is trying to envision what our school days would look like. And, you know, at the time we had decided to homeschool and I felt a little hesitant because I thought, I just can't imagine myself sitting like grading worksheets and doing like the peel and stick crafts. I don't want my days to look like that. And yet I really wanted to have a family environment where we would have these family bonds. We would have a shared family culture. And I knew that homeschooling was a great way toward that. And then I came upon the Charlotte Mason method and the way that I could then envision my day with experiencing the best literature, the best art, the best music outdoors. It's education for people. And I think that the mother can enjoy it as much as the children. It also sets up enjoying your children and that there is a different dynamic for the teacher and child that doesn't put them at odds with one another, but working toward the same goal. And I think that's a great place to be if you're going to be their parent and their teacher. It can be hard to wear both hats at times. But I think that with the Charlotte Mason method, it really it's the same role. The way that you want to engage with your child as their parent is you can bring those same qualities into your role as teacher. And so it feels very cohesive. What kind of culture do you think that we're rebuilding with families who homeschool? I think it's a culture of delight and wonder where we think that there is so much to know, there's so much to do, that life feels always too short, that it's just exciting again, where it didn't feel like that. I think so often for me in school, it was how can I get the A in the fastest way possible doing the least amount of work? Totally. And, you know, what is the point of that A then, you know? And it just was like to do the next thing and get to the next deadline. And people kind of go through life like that now. Like, when is it going to be my next vacation? And instead, it's that every day can can matter and be one of interest and ideas. Remind everybody the name of your organization and then what do you offer families who are looking into Charlotte Mason education? So the name of our organization is the Charlotte Mason Educational Center, and you'll find us at the cmec.org. And we offer a K-12 curriculum as well as resources for implementing that curriculum and a vibrant community of thoughtful parents through live meetings, webinars, all kinds of community support. And all over the world, not even just in America. That's right. Because we do have some international listeners. Oh, great. Yeah. 20 countries that are Americans that are abroad for some reason. But we love our Canadian and Australian, South African families too. Yeah. In all 50 states. And where can people find you on Instagram? At the dot CBC. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would your remedy be? I think there's so many things we would say that we have found in trying to have a full education for children. Each of the subjects that we study end up providing the thing that we need, that there is something for us in learning history, knowing American history that is good for us, but the same thing of nature and being out in nature. And so we don't want to over-specialize or create children that are really like we're programming them like they're some sort of computer or device. Let's get back to treating children as persons. And that will be the thing that really heals our culture again. Just to echo what Amy's saying, I think Mason called her education broad and balanced. And I think that that is a life worth living, a broad life and a balanced life. She said the aim of education is joy in living and that life should be all living, not just passing time. I was thinking about what you were saying earlier with just getting the A to move on to the next thing, to move on to the next thing. Everything's a means to an end. And what's the end? And so to be able to experience joy in living now. And then the other two qualities, she says, are steadiness of mind, which is a powerful thought for today, and magnanimity of spirit. So this generous hearted soul, these are things that I definitely could heal our culture if we had an education that cultivated those qualities. Absolutely. So beautifully said. Amy and Celeste, thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary. Thank you. Thank you. If you love this episode on education, I've done several others with Heidi St. John, Hannah Frankman, Claire Denalt and Katie Faust. Just Google their names and Alex Clark and they'll come up. This time last year, I also came out with an episode all about Waldorf education and even attended Waldorf kindergarten for a day, literally like with the kids. And I made a YouTube vlog on the Real Alex Clark YouTube. You can watch that and see me attend Waldorf kindergarten and kind of see the differences between Waldorf education for the younger years and Charlotte Mason. New episodes of Culture Apothecary come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern with new expert guests anywhere you get your podcasts. You can find the show on Instagram at Culture Apothecary, where we put out like extra content and fun little graphics and things just to give you more education on the topics that we cover on the show. And then I'm also on there at Real Alex Clark. But full disclosure, I put my foot in my mouth a lot on there and start a lot of fights. And it's basically like the Bloods and the Crips just on my Instagram stories at all times. Don't ask questions. Just enjoy. Also, let me just make a point that every family is different and every child is different. Waldorf might work great for somebody's kid. Charlotte Mason might work great for another person's kid. Maybe a private school, traditional school setting is what is good for you. Montessori, what have you. On this show, I cover so many different topics in regards to education and also just a myriad of other things, basically everything. We're going to have guests that say and believe different things so that you can hear different ideas and opinions and figure out what works for you. So me doing a Charlotte Mason episode is not me saying that Charlotte Mason is the end all be all and the only thing that you should be doing for teaching your kids. Just as when I did the Waldorf episode, I wasn't saying that. Now, what I am saying is that I do not think that public education is good enough for any kid, period. So I would say if you are a conservative Christian family, then you better get your kids out of public school. Everything else is pretty much up for debate. But that is the only line running through all of the education episodes that I do on this show. So there you have it. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary. Fight it out in the comments.