‘Skins’ Revisited

Hello, welcome back to the Press to Use TV podcast feed. I'm Donna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here with a very special episode of the Press to Use Television podcast. We're doing a look back at a couple high school shows that we were thinking about in relation to our coverage of Euphoria Season 3. And today we're talking about Skins UK. Very important clarification. Crucially Skins UK. We're not doing like a series overlook. We are not. I wish. Completely mental and watched seven seasons of a television show for one episode of a podcast. But we're here mostly to talk about the pilot episode. So series one, episode one of UK Skins titled Tony after Tony Stonem. The titular role. The Skins himself, Nichol. Mr. Skins. Mr. Skins, Nichol. And we're just going to talk about sort of the impact of the show at the time. There's been a lot of chatter recently where people have been saying like Skins UK was the original Euphoria. But I think you could make that argument out a lot of teen shows because the general cycle of teen showdom is that a new show comes along and people go gasp. I know. What? Teens are doing this? Is this okay? And then rinse and repeat over the generations. It's almost like being a teenager is about rebellion. What? Who knew? I mean this goes back to like there was like Peyton Place back in like, you know, Splendor in the grass and the 60s. Like this has been a tale as old as time in terms of like what are the teens up to? Skins UK was a show that I watched not originally when it was airing but a little bit later. I think it's part of my like Nick Holt completionist phase. But what was your entry point? What really grabbed you by the Holt? By the Holt? Thanks so much. Like into my Holt fandom or into Skins? What did you first see him and then you're like, oh, I want to see what that guy has been up to? Well, I saw about a boy, his like debut when he was a kiddo and I loved that. You know, I was a huge Nick Hornby fan. I love Hugh Grant. I love that movie. He's so good in it too. He's so good at it. And then I didn't see Skins, but then I saw a single man which came out after Skins and which in which he plays like a young gay pink mohair sweater wearing sex pot. And I was like, what happened to the boy from about a boy? And I missed this sort of crucial bridging Skins phase. So I did eventually go back. I have to imagine the reason I went back to check in on Skins was because it is the origin story for Joe Dempsey and Hannah Murray, who are two big Game of Thrones actors. And so I was just sort of like, and then I realized that Patel was in it and Daniel Collu. Like there's this is part of what we want to talk about is that teen shows as these breeding grounds for future stars and all the rest. This is your first foray into Skins UK. How was your experience? I had awesome time. I would love to watch more of this show. I mean, I knew it by reputation and exactly the way you described. I think the combination of, oh, this is a very like edgy teenage show. I reputed it, but also the idea that it was this like talent scouting factory for basically a whole generation of British actors. And so in both of those ways, it is extremely euphoria. But as you say, it's that's kind of a generational transition point for a lot of these sorts of series. Some more than others. You know, when we, we thought initially about doing a month long series and we were going to do four different shows and we were trying to pick shows that had either future Oscar winners or Oscar nominees in them. So Dossas Creek. Yep. Freaks and Geeks. This is definitely in the mix. And normal people is something that we had talked about considering doing, but we landed on Skins and then we're going to do Friday Night Lights just because Skins is the most euphoria adjacent, I think. And the Friday Night Lights is just so us core ringer core, you know, at the end of the day. It's also Friday Night Lights not to step on that pot too much, but almost like a failed attempt at this sort of ensemble launch pad. Like there's people in Friday Night Lights who really pop a couple of singular stars, but they're not necessarily who you, who you'd expect. And there isn't like the broad success, I think of in this case, like some of the generations of Skins. So stay tuned, Taylor Kitch. We're going to talk about your career eventually. So this is a description of Skins UK from a 2011 Guardian article about sort of one of the later seasons coming back. Wild House parties, Bats of Booze, Drugs and Anks at a Never-Running Quest for Sex, Escapades that left some parents predictably outraged and their kids equally predictably thrilled. So I kind of want to talk to you about sort of why teen dramas or in the case of Skins, like a dramedy are eternally sort of hooky for audiences. I think titillation is a huge part of it, right? And then alongside that titillation, there's the gas fear controversy that comes. I don't remember if I talked about this on the pod, but I was at the Euphoria premiere which was at the Austin Television Festival years ago. They debuted it there. It was the opening night show. Zendaya was there and a couple of the cast members and the Q&A session afterwards was just parents walking up to the mic and going, dear God, what is this thing? Do you expect my child to watch this? And then there were actually a couple of quite young people in the audience because there was Zendaya fans. And so like a kid walked up to the microphone, Zendaya was so mortified that one of her kid fans was there and then she was like, who's your parent? Why did your parent let you be here? So, you know, there's this parents don't want you watching it. And so the kids, of course, even more so want to watch it. And my first experience with that was I remember in fifth grade, I transferred to a new school and I was, you know, didn't know anyone and I was meeting people and this one girl was trying to sort of like connect with me and she was like, do you watch an auto to and I was like, not to to and we're in fifth grade. No. And she was like, OK, lame. And then I knew that I had to watch an auto to and in order to like be able to talk to people, even though I was in fifth grade at the time. But so you get this this titillation, this privileged peak inside a world of of teenagers that, you know, especially if the show has any kind of reputation for getting it right, which is UK definitely did. And we'll talk about why. Here's what the parents television council said about skins quote, the most dangerous program and that's program with two M's and an E at the end, because we're naturally the most dangerous program that has ever been foisted on your children. Voisted. Who was who was foisted? What was foisted? How old you were a teen in 2007? I was. Do you did you feel represented by the depiction of teenagers in this show? I mean, this is in my lifestyle, per se. OK. But it is a lifestyle. Yeah. But did you recognize people you went to school with? Completely. OK. I think this is the thing, like if you want to be real about it, yes, the heightened style of euphoria or sometimes of skins or a Friday night lights, like doesn't map one to one on the teenage experience, but it's like, let's not pretend this stuff isn't happening. And it's one thing to portray things accurately and then to stylize them and then to accentuate them. But I think part of the reason those teen dramas work is the same reason like young adult fiction works is like, this is a period of life in which you feel things so intense. Yes. And to such dramatic extremes. And it's like, what if every character on the show was operating on those like complete peaks and valleys all the time emotionally while doing the titillating things that are going to draw viewers in? It's like, that's just a good formula for melodrama. Yeah. And I think for teens, in terms of that sort of you're feeling everything, everything feels enormous to you. That's why AYA stories that are said in a supernatural world where like the the puberty feelings that are your feelings sometimes are life and death. That's why Buffy of Empires, it works so well or, you know, the Hunger Games, etc., etc. But then in a teen drama, your problems are taken seriously. Your problems are the most important problems of this show of this world. And we'll talk about the parents and how they're depicted on these shows. But I think that's interesting. So, yeah, conversation starters about like, are the kids are right? Are the kids actually doing this? I think especially it's really interesting going back and reading about the debut of Friday Night Lights in 2006 and the debut of Skins in 2007. The word MySpace is thrown around a lot as this sort of like burgeoning era of social media. And now with social media, of course, we have much more access to like what the teens are, quote unquote, actually doing. But for a while, it was up to these often wildly inaccurate, but sometimes accurate peaks inside of mainstream media of sort of like, this is what your kids are up to, just FYI, this is what they do. And again, there's the horror for the adults, the celebration from the kids. And then when they get it wildly wrong, like Dawson's Creek does, there's just sort of, I love Dawson's Creek, but like, which gets mentioned in this Skins pilot, but like, the whole point is Dawson's Creek was like, no kid actually talks like that. Yes. So at the end of the day. All right. What was your first impression of this episode? How did it work for you? Really enjoyed it. I mean, it's just a straight like sex comedy setup. Yeah. It was, I think more outright a comedy than I was expecting it to be. And I think you're right to point out that it's not just drama. Like it is a dramedy through and through. There are serious moments, but everything is undercut. It's impossible to extricate like British sense of humor from a show like this and an episode like this. So I really loved it. And you can already see too, in a euphoria sense, the like character centric episode, like we're going to, we're going to take you through the point of view of Tony. And yeah, we're going to transition and hand off. And you're going to see plenty of other characters, but it was very familiar in that way too. Right. This is the Tony episode. So re-watching the pilot, I was thinking about you a lot because I was like, okay, Rob is watching this the first time. Is he going to be like, why did you pick this show? Or why do people like this? I wasn't sure how it would land with you in, in 2026. Nearly 20 years later. But then I watched the second episode. We're not going to talk about it in detail, but the second episode is the Cassie episode. And Hannah Murray is Cassie, I think is the real hook for me for that show. Fascinating character. As much as I'm like a whole head, like Cassie kind of is that show for me, especially like in the first two series, which is that generation. And so her episode, which is a bit more surreal and all these, I was like, that's, that's what really got me in. Because I think my recollection is I watched the first episode and I was like, this is fascinating just to see how young these future stars are and all these other things. But the Cassie episode is really what hooked me in. So these episodes are on Hulu. So you can just watch them if you haven't. Very funny to watch this on Disney Plus, by the way. Yeah. There you go. We're on Disney Plus at the end of the day. Is there like a team pilot formula that you're identifying across some of these shows? I think there's a couple of different formulas that these shows draw on. Usually often, and I think this is one area where skins deviates, is my experience with these shows is like the school is a foundational structural device. And we're barely in school for this first episode. I imagine that that changes, right? That they probably spend more time in school at various points in the season or the show. I would say on and off. It sort of depends. And I think one of the hooks of skins, I think the description, one of the descriptions I read was sort of like, you know, they booze, they do drugs, blah, blah, and then they get up for their A-levels. And sort of like the whole thing about Tony in this episode and as you'll discover, some of his other friends is like, they're actually good students. This is very like cruel intentions, right? So it's sort of like, these aren't the privileged upper class students. We meet some of those students inside of this first episode. Don't you dare track mud on that pile carpet. Bring your friends. Like that's not who we're talking about. But that combination of you don't have to be, just because you do drugs and alcohol and care about sex doesn't mean you're a burnout necessarily. And so that combination, I think, feels a little extra special and titillating. Very much so. And I think how do you introduce that sort of cast of characters and both their potential and also the behavior that they get up to without having that school setting? And this is where like, this is a very of its time sort of, I'm going to call around to all of my friends to round them up for this party. I love that device. And honestly, like it feels dated in a sort of flip phone way, but not in the rallying the troops way. And so I think that part feels very teen drama to me. But without the school, like being in a school gives you a great place like quickly establish a main character, give you like the clicks and the hierarchy and that sense of like place and understanding of how everything fits together. It also lets you introduce potential foils in a way that doesn't feel too contrived, right? Like there's rivals, there's bullies, there's jocks, there's whatever. The closest we get to that is like Tony's run in with this like pompous French teacher at the school he doesn't even go to. Right. Right. Right. So it's like that's kind of the closest we get to it. Cause otherwise it is just like a one crazy night literally bookended by Tony's neighbor changing in her mirror or in her window, like before and after the next day. That's a real through line euphoria. It doesn't really have it. But that's a real through line of teen dramas of a certain era, which is just sort of like what adult is having an inappropriate social sexual relationship with a child or at least like undressing for them at the end of the day or the beginning of the day. I think that's really an interesting part of all of this. I think when we think about the way in which the parents are depicted in these various shows, I think it's really telling, we'll talk about sort of the adults at the center of front headlights because it's a very different construction. But here parents are idiots or neglectful teachers are idiots or inappropriate. There are no adults. There is an adult who shows up in the Cassie episode that is like kind and thoughtful and all this sort of stuff like that. But, but in terms of like the parents are most often defined by their absence and what the kids can do while they're gone. So there are no anchors or guiding lights. And that's an interesting thing when you think about a teen drama, because oftentimes in these teen shows, you do introduce the parents in the first season, you, you meet a lot of the parents. And then often they sort of fade into the background. Like the key example is 90210 where Jim and Cindy Walsh who are Brandon and Brenda's parents like moved to Japan in a later season, but everyone lives in their house. Everyone just moves in the same thing happens in Buffy. Everyone just like moves into the summer's house. Like that house is an important setting, but the parents- Well, the set's already built. Because increasingly irrelevant as we go on. And Skins is like, what if they're irrelevant from the beginning really? They're just buffoons, you know? But this is a rite of passage for a teen show, right? It's almost like in a horror movie, you have to have the moment where it's like, oh, we don't have cell reception to justify the plot. Like you have to show the parents are asleep at the wheel in order to say, where are the consequences? Where is the oversight? Why are these kids allowed to like run around all night and steal a car and drive it into a river? It's because no one is really paying attention to them, at least with any actual detail. As you pointed out, this is essentially a sex comedy plot, but what we do get here in this first episode and does seem very key to these teen stories is a love triangle, right? So we've got Michelle and Tony and Sid and Cassie, if you want to make it a rectangle of some kind. A rhombus. How important do love triangles feel to teen drama? Why do you think this is here? I mean, they have to be there. I think it's just like a natural pull at such an easy narrative device. I think something we see here is it's a great one to introduce and then back burner, right? It's a thing that can be a running subplot through the episodes, but doesn't have to drive the story all the time. And so, I mean, who hasn't been at some point involved in a triangle of a kind? It's such a relatable experience. When you perhaps have been involved in a love triangle of some kind. Allegedly. Allegedly. Did you take upwards of 50 photos of one girl and just scroll through them on your flip phone? Including like no, not even head, just body shots. And then scroll through on a bus. While a man breathes over your shoulder and also looks at them. That's just normal behavior. Great stuff. At least in the UK. Did anything surprise you about this episode? I wasn't really too surprised. I think even knowing it's a provocative show, I will say the full frontal duvet cover was like, okay, this feels, again, to bring back the euphoria element, it's not to euphoria's taste, but it is to euphoria sensibilities to do something like that. And so, just kind of getting that like very stark visual out of the gate was a little surprising. But then once you settle in, it is kind of just a mid to late 2000s sort of sex comedy plot, one that probably would not be written even in this way today. Like euphoria crosses a lot of lines and walks a lot of lines, but the like, we need to get this girl stoned out of her mind so that she'll have sex with you. I just don't know that that's being written today. Which is such a weird part because Cassie shows up and she's just sort of game from the jump. She wants to organize jars and have sex if that's what you're up for. Absolutely. This is how her various OCDs manifest themselves. I will say the one other thing that surprised me almost from a content perspective, this is where I'd be curious to keep watching and see Cassie's episode in particular, the way that her eating disorder is introduced and talked about. I did find, I want to say pleasantly surprising based on this episode alone. I have no context for where it goes or what happens or how it's handled, but it's like, it's so casual and almost thrown away that it's jarring. It's like, I think so many of these teen shows fall into, we have to have very serious conversations about these sorts of things as they come up. And this is like a character beat that we're navigating over the course of the episode, but the show never bogs down to have the serious talk about it. Cassie's eating disorder I think is the most defining characteristic of her experience through the show. And she's sort of in and out of treat. I think you would find it less of like a footnote of part of her character and more of an anchor. It's not even that it's a footnote, it's just more like they introduce it without belaboring the point and almost like treated as a bit. Oh yeah, they make jokes about it throughout and that's part of skins. The joy of skins is how irreverent it is in terms of these very serious issues. And to your point, there are other teen shows where if someone has an eating disorder, that is like the serious issue of the week. And in this case, it's something that Cassie is going to struggle with her entire run on the show along with other mental health concerns. But the fact that you've got someone here who has mental health issues that she's struggling with, you've got teens from all different cultural backgrounds, you've got a queer teen, you've got Tony. It's not dealt with in the pilot here, but Tony is the term they use at the time is polysexual, which is not really a term we really use anymore, but essentially he's pansexual. And so like that, you know, this attractive, manipulative, smart teenager who will sleep with anyone because sex is like power and that's of interest to him is a new character inside of the teen drama or comedy world. And like an odd character to anchor your POV in your first episode. And even at the center of a tone like this, which is a sex comedy, to have a Tony Stonem at the center of it is interesting, I think. See, you say it's a new character and I agree broadly, but there are hints of that like Ryan Felipe and Cruel Intention sort of thing here. It's definitely Ryan Felipe and Cruel Intentions, but Cruel Intentions is like, it's different in a movie versus a TV show, I feel like. And also like Reese Withersham's character is sort of supposed to be your POV inside of Cruel Intentions to a certain degree, but on the most convincing, least convincing. So this will come more into play with Friday Night Lights because there are some real 20-somethings in that show. And this was sort of a running joke through 90210 into Dawson's Creek, etc., etc., of like, who are these 20-something, sometimes 30-somethings playing teenagers. In Skins UK, it's teenagers. Literal teenagers. Not just teenagers in the cast, but teenagers in the writing room. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. We're not here to call out anyone for being too old for the role necessarily. But who feels like most identifiably like an actual teenager to you in this pilot episode? I feel like it's got to be Dev Patel. Okay, tell me. I just think he has like, I haven't quite grown into my limbs kind of physicality that is so impossible for like an adult actor to mimic in any way. There's just, that's one of those things. You can try to have the mannerisms of a teen. You can try to talk like a teen. You just can't have that lack of coordination like a teen. And Dev Patel is really embodying that for me in this episode. And how much of that is informed by you knowing what a Stone Cold Fox Dev Patel turns into? I mean, we've seen the before and afters of all these people, really. Absolutely, absolutely. I think to a certain degree, and this, this is a common, like I was sort of thinking across many teen shows and I kind of came up with the same archetype. And I think it's just because those are the kinds of guys that I was friends with in high school. But your SIDS, like Mike Bailey, who I think was 18, but SID, the sort of like nerdy friend, that, that rings really true to me to my like experience growing up. So, yeah. I also think like the fact that they are teenagers, I would have to think is a huge part of the pearl clutching experience of this show. Because it's such a different thing when you are seeing 20-something actors. And this is a reason why they're often cast in those roles. I think there's two considerations. One, productions of TV shows and even movies can be so long, you don't want to risk somebody has like a huge growth spurt or changes dramatically physically over the course of your show or movie. But also just when you show people actual teenagers doing very sexual things in particular, some people just lose their minds. And I'm not even saying they're wrong, particularly when you put yourself in the position of like, oh, an adult wrote a thing for this 15-year-old girl to do on screen. And now she's like nude. It gets, it gets weird very quickly. So let's talk about the writer's room. So this is, this is some of the ways in which we bump up against poor phrasing euphoria is that like Sam Levinson, an adult man is, you know, writing all the episodes and using his own life experience inside of addiction, but just sort of writing for all of these teenagers, especially these young women in these, you know, if you watch this latest episode of euphoria, like incredibly sexual content for skins, which was created by a father, son team, which I think is quite interesting. A family affair. They had the average age in the writer's room was 22 years old. And they hired literal teenagers, Daniel Kalia, who shows up as a character, posh Kenneth was on the writing team. He wrote, he was sort of like a teen consultant in the first season and then wrote to the episodes in the second season series, if you prefer. This is an interview from him in 2008. Quote, I'd always been on the writing team from series one, but on series one, I was a contributor, which was when they bring young people in and they give their opinion on the scripts and what rang true and what didn't. I co-wrote an unseen, like an episode that didn't make it to air for series one. And when series two came along, they offered me a chance to write an episode. He actually wrote two. And he's never a main character on the show, but he's very funny. You don't see him in the pilot, but he is like a very funny, great presence on the show. Future Oscar winner Daniel Kalia, but it's very rare, obviously. And I don't think it's been quite repeated in the same way for you to not only hire young writers, but to bring in teenage consultants. I remember Winnie Holtzman, the creator of my so-called life, which was also very well regarded for capturing the way that teens actually talked at the time, etc. She just went around and talked to teens and wrote down how they spoke and what they said and what their concerns were. She checked in with her teen cast and she would take stories from their lives and put it into the script and stuff like that. But everyone was always so dazzled by the way, how did you do this? How did you capture the way that teens talk? So she's like, well, I talked to teens. What a novel idea. Skins UK hired teens. I have some questions about the labor laws about that, but I guess for 18 that works. Many, many questions about the laws and practices and the making of this show. What do you think? I do think there's one of these things though where the idea of making your character sound like teens, in theory, is great and you want that authenticity and you want that sense that this feels real. The problem is, and I say this not to alienate any of our non-existent teen listeners because let's be real about it. They're not listening to this podcast. You don't really want to listen to teenagers talk for 10 hours as much as you think you do. And so it needs to be sculpted and shaped and stylized and narrativized in a way, but without losing the heart of what makes it feel authentic. Speak for yourself, Rob. I promise you, you do not. What's interesting about the teen hoookiness of it all is, I was reading some articles from UK publications at the time about how skins was received when it first aired. And not just that sort of pro-clutching parents council quote that I read, but how they had captured their audience before they even premiered and what they did is they utilized my space in a significant way, in the same way that publishers are hoping book talk will get you interested in their book before it comes out. Tales of the time, but my space being such a new way to connect directly to your demographic, your specific demographic. And so this is a quote from a Guardian article. A Guardian article that's called, Are You Gonna Roll Up For Skins? Because skins is a UK slang for rolling papers. So that's the name of the show is a drug associated. Did you point at the screen when we got the title drop in this episode? I heard Ron Howard say, Hey, that's the name of the show. But this is what the Guardian article written in 2007 says, the first episode is yet to be aired, but Channel 4 has already bombarded us with racy trailers of attractive adolescents, copping off and puking up. I'm hooked and desperate to know if skins will finally fill the eternal void in television schedules for realistic representation of teenage life. And then a MySpace page for the show has generated huge hype online, which is essential if you're going to attract and keep today's tech savvy teens. Clever competitions have also done their bit for marketing machine, offering you, the viewer, the chance to get a song in a scene, style the cast and design the logo. So they did a real leg for us by a sort of teen experience here. You get drugs in the first episode, naked adult neighbors, we're hitting on teachers, you know, we're trying to lose our virginity. We're doing our best. I mean, and it worked. It was it does work. It had a, it got terrible reviews. Euphoria is like same. Yeah, terrible reviews on the merits or on like the content, pearl clutching? On the merits. Yeah. On the merits. And I like watching it, I think if I watched that first episode as an adult TV critic, I would be like, what, what is this? I'm not that interested. You know, like, I don't think the acting is tremendous in the first episode. You know, there's, there's just a lot, you know, like I, I could see, hopefully I wouldn't do this, but I could see myself as like, if I'm like, I write for the God, and I don't think this is up to snap. Like I could see that, but it was, you know, it got a huge audience. And it has only grown in estimation and become sort of this cold classic status. You know, as opposed, well, we'll talk about Friday Night Lights. Friday Night Lights was a critical darling from the jump, but not necessarily hit with teenagers, I would say. Speak for yourself. I mean, the Ramonis of the world we're tuning in, but maybe not like other teens. Oh, wow. Thank you so much. You know, so. I would like to think, and I would say my overall impression of this episode is like, there's something cooking here. This is not a finished formula. You're right about the acting. Like there's some really spotty moments. It's wild because Nick Holt is so good. And I'm like, this is maybe his worst acting ever. He's still so fun to watch. Yeah. And like the charisma of it you buy, like you buy that this guy could walk into a room and reel off some show tunes. And like all of the girls are trying to get him to go to the party. 100%. That part is very believable. But yeah, he's, he is reaching and grasping for control of this character. And he doesn't have it yet. But I think that's what makes some of these teen shows so appealing is like, it's not just the young characters, it's young performers. And you're seeing them reckon with their own power. Yeah. And especially in retrospect, when you see what they've later become, you're just sort of like, this is so fun to watch them take their first sort of shaky steps. One question you had for me, especially because you've only watched the first episode of Skins is as we're grappling with Euphoria season three, the post high school years of this show, how do these teen shows handle their cast growing older? And Friday Night Lights did a similar version of this. But what Skins UK did, which was felt revolutionary at the time, is they cycled the cast out every two years. So again, the restraint of television in the UK, we just simply could not, we're not capable of that. You meet in the first episode. And this is part of, I think part of the extreme deletion of the first episode is like, Tony's getting up to Antics. His younger sister is getting up to something even more. She's been out all night, all of her makeup is smudged off. They have a routine of getting her back into the house. That was incredible, big brothering. It really was. He's 16. She's like 14. So that may be terrible, big brother. It depends on your perspective. Or, you know, loyal, big brothering, right? For sure. Real, real like Ferris Bueller energy going on here. But so Effie Stonem, his sister is sort of the anchor of the second generation. So you've got Tony Stonem and his friends the first two seasons. Effie and her friends are the second generation. And then they did a third generation. And in the second generation, like Kai Esquadallero as Effie Stonem is, you know, Kai has gone on to do other things. Jack O'Connell is in the second generation. You've got some like great, great people who popped in the second generation. Third generation didn't really hit as much. And so the final, like seventh series of skins is a series of specials checking in with Cassie, Effie, and Jack O'Connell's character cook. So like, like two parters dedicated to those characters are sort of like, how are they doing in adult life? And I think if those sort of like, how is Cassie doing in her 20s, how is Effie doing in her 20s? If those had hit better than they did, skins might have, you know, pivoted into a different thing. into that or something like that. There was an idea of maybe doing a skins movie, but instead they did this sort of like wrap up season. But that's as close as they get to sort of euphoria series. The season three is this like season seven. Let's check in with some popular characters and see how they're doing. Also not dissimilar to the euphoria specials too. Right, right, exactly. And so again, Friday Night Lights did something similar where they're trying to like cycle in new teens as we get older. But this is the question that plagues all teen dramas is like, how do you keep the, that crucial framework of high school? And, you know, the answer for skins UK is we didn't bother and we just brought in new kids, new crops. Which I really respect. Yeah. And it does take a lot of scouting and understanding of like, how do you repopulate this cast and rewriting interesting characters? You understand fully why shows don't do this because it's really hard and it takes a lot of work. But when you can pull it off and it seems like at least for one turnover skins really did. Yeah. I mean, that's something you just have to admire. If you are a sort of generation three, third generation skins lover and you're offended, presscTVsfotify.com, you can let me know how long I am. I mean, obviously I didn't watch this as it was airing. I'm not in the UK. So there are very ways, there are many ways in which I am not. Spiritually you are. Mentally, emotionally. But there are many ways in which I am like, you know, and I'm the wrong generation, like not the authority on the skins fandom. So I'm not pretending to be, but from afar, this is sort of my understanding what happened. Can I read a couple of quotes from reviews of skins? I think we need them after hearing the parents council. I need more of it. This is from The Guardian. And this is just a review of the first couple of episodes of the first season. If this is designed to emphasize how truly realistic Tony at all are, the effect has been slightly muted by the decision to cast as the college lot and their sixth form, their 16 through 18 year olds, actors who could give Prince William, Eli, Eli Cushion lessons, there as irritating as real teenagers, I'll give them that. So you and The Guardian TV reviewer, both hate teenagers is, is what we're, we're getting here. I think I am an age where I'm supposed to hate teenagers. It's weird if you don't, you know. And then this is what the Times wrote. The script was good at capturing that mix of wanton self absorption and vulnerability that makes parents want to ring their kids next and hug them at the same time. The series primary aim is to entertain rather than raise issues with a helpline number at the end, unlike euphoria. More importantly, it shows heart rather than a blink in whatever cynicism that makes it worth watching for the space invaders generation as well as the My Spacers. So that's sort of the check in. And I mean, what is so revolutionary about skins is what was going on in UK television at the time because teen dramas were much more of an American thing than they were a UK TV thing. And UK TV was, you know, far fewer options for what you're watching. There are far fewer channels. A lot of them are, you know, BBC channels, et cetera, et cetera, were firmly in the grip of reality, of the reality television explosion. And Shameless was a show that existed, but by and large, the depictions of teens were much like far stodger than this. And this felt realistic, even though watching it now, you're sort of like, this doesn't feel like a docudrama. Not exactly. It's put on. But it's put on in a way where, yeah, there's a germ of truth. And then we're going to create a TV show around it. You want to talk about the cast? And we've already talked about it a bit. Do we want to go through the murderous row of talent here? It's frankly unbelievable. I mean, for one, just like landing Nicholas Holt as one of the leads of your show from a broadcasting search. And it seems like this was like basically an open casting call that they just rolled teenage actors through and tried to pick out the best of the litter. The fact that you can get a lineup and pick out Nicholas Holt at this point in his life is just tremendous work. You're a Holt head too, right? Of course. What's your, the height of your Holt fandom? I'm trying to think, I mean, you're a real beast in the X-Men movie. Not a beast nor am I at that era of X-Men. And I think the great might be like the peak of his power so far. So good. He channels like a very specific kind of like very irritating quality that all of the best Nicholas Holt performances have. And look, I love the Fury Roads. And I even love like, like warm bodies. Like I think he can play sensitive very well, but he can also play like full of himself in a way that Tony has. And I think a lot of his characters do. And he just like, like in Nosferatu just like hits that register, you know, like he understands how to get there, stay there, be freaked out and manic enough, but also like incredibly grating in a pleasant way. I just want to underscore my Holt loyalty is such that when our Pal and colleague, Sean Fentasy was shit talking, Nick Holt, I made him the display photo for our group chat that talks about movies. And he's still there. No one has taken him down. Nick Holt is still as like Luther. Was he being shit talked? I feel like not to, you know, defend Sean too much, but I feel like it was just a mutual understanding that like this guy's playing a lot of cooks right now. You know, these are the roles that he has chosen for himself. Rob, don't betray me on this podcast by defending Sean Fentasy's cook take about Nick Holt. Is Tony Stoneman cut? Well, anyway, not yet. Maybe by the NT will be. But yeah, I think like the benefits of doing this sort of casting call are just like so apparent. Like having like a diverse cast that doesn't feel like a college brochure that's been like planned for diversity. Right. You just, I mean, if you want to cast your teen show with a jock out of central casting, you're going to get jock out of central casting energy when it's time to actually say the lines. And these do feel like real kids performing, but like the real kid part of it, you kind of can't take out of them. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right to single out Dev Patel and his like extreme gangliness inside of these early, these first two seasons. I want more of him in this episode, but him trying to have a big gay night out and it blowing up in his face is all that's honestly a great place to start. I also love, I also think Joe Dempsey is really, really good as Chris. I'm a big fan of Joe Dempsey on the show, but Hannah Murray is really the stand up for me. And like she hasn't obviously has had as big a career as Dev or Daniel or Nick. Yes. But Cassie is just such an indelible teenage character to me. And I just think she has something so special inside of there is this sort of like manic pixie dream girl, you know, energy to her, but something just, it's a little different. It's daffy or than that. And it's just like really watchable. I think she's so incredible. I'm with you. I really, I mean, she's written a lot about her. I think she recently published a memoir where she's talked about some of her own like mental health struggles and stuff like that and how that's impacted her acting life. And so I'm not, I'm not surprised that she hasn't had a bigger career given the aspects of her personal life that she has has shared very publicly. But I wish for her to have more because it's sort of a thankless role on Thrones and it doesn't really highlight with women respect to Gillie doesn't really highlight what she's capable of here in Zions. But I would say even in Game of Thrones, some of that is there. There is like, there is a warmth and a generosity of performance, not just like the character that I'm like, that's just a person I want to see in a lot of different contexts bouncing off of all sorts of different actors. And I mean, that usually is the answer, right? When you're looking at a clear talent where their career hasn't quite gone the way you'd expect. It's like they've got stuff going on in their lives. They've got a lot to navigate in addition to all the professional like trials and tribulations that everyone else does. I would have liked a different life for her in terms of her acting career. With Joe Dempsey, it did occur to me skins Game of Thrones Doctor Who. Is that the Brit Triple Crown? That is a Brit Triple Crown. I think there are a couple other like EastEnders is like a thing you can do. I don't know. There's some other options. I don't mean in terms of glamour. I just mean in terms of like it's hitting EastEnders is like, let's go glamour. I think you can show up on Taskmaster. That's a thing that we care a lot about, right? Has he done a literary adaptation like an Austin or a Dickens, something you can do. Call you when he's done a costume drama is what you're saying. I mean, what is Thrones if not a costume drama to a certain degree. But yeah, call me when you put on a cravat, Joe Dempsey. Question you were asking because Daniel Kalia is again a fairly minor character inside of these seasons. Really fun, but fairly minor. But is the Oscar winner like out of this cast? And so a question you were asking me actually as it pertains to Friday in the lives, but we'll talk about that cast. But you were like, who is the Jesse Plemons? Like who is the minor person in this cast in Euphoria who is going to pop years down the line and not Sydney, Swiney or Jacob Elordiers and Dayette. It's someone we didn't see coming. I talk about this all the time, like Bradley Cooper on alias, like, you know, like fifth build on alias and like pop. This happens all the time that like a background actor or like a fifth build or whatever will pop. So do you have, I have my answer, but do you have any answer of like who in Euphoria? I mean, maybe as Maddie's number one boy, you're going to stomp for Alexa. I mean, I really hope, but she's almost too prominent for I think what we're talking about. Like Landry and Friday Night Lights is a very likable character who becomes more prominent as the show goes on. Just because Plemons was so good. Yeah, it was just kind of like a force of will and gravitational pull. But yeah, I don't know that Euphoria has one. And granted, I'm not sure many people in shows and movies have a Jesse Plemons in them just like hanging out in the background. And this is where my answer to you was Austin Abrams, who's not in season three, got really backgrounded in season two until he like showed up in the play and got a time to shine. But like, I really loved him from the start on Euphoria playing Ethan. He's, he's showed up in like a few things, but his, his career is really taking off weapons. He was fantastic in. And then he's going to be in the new resident evil. He's the lead in the new resident evil. Huge, huge moment in your for him in that particular regard. I think he's, I love Austin Abrams, especially when he showed up in weapons as this like, you know, drug addicts like Nairdwell, whatever. That's how you describe him. Nairdwell. She's emotionally in the UK all the time. But he, I was like, this is a role that Timothy Chalamet thinks he's too big to take and he is. But Austin Abrams like, I'll take it. There's a vacuum. And I'll do it. And Timmy, Timmy's like just doing doing it in Marty Supreme now. Give me those Timmy roles from like five years ago and I'll do them. You're saying Timmy is broken through the ceiling and all of the other Timmy's are just like, can we climb up through here? But I think he's going to be like Alpha second wave Timmy. I could see it. I mean, he does have some of the same appeal, like slightly different energy. Look, I'm very excited to see him in Resident Evil. I also did note that Kaiasco Delario was in a, I don't know if you saw her, the Resident Evil movie she was in. No. Just like, horrendously bad. Her Pirates of the Caribbean that she was in. I mean, she seems to have a tough run up in. She's made some choices. She's made some choices. And I haven't seen the later skin stuff that you mentioned. But you can even tell from this pilot's like, that's a character that I'm like, I do want to spend more time with and understand what her whole deal is. But yeah, it's, do not watch the Resident Evil movie that she appears in as Claire Redfield. It's not good. She was really good in The Gentleman, the Netflix show that came out is ongoing, but she is the female lead of that. And that was like, when she showed up in that, the Guy Ritchie show with EO James, et cetera, I was like, oh, finally, something that she, like for her to show what she can do with love and respect to the Maze Runner franchise. But like, this is the thing is like, do you have love and respect for the Maze Runner franchise? I don't. Well, then why are we giving it? Why are we just handing it away? I just, Joe, I want more for you than just you to give your love on Willie Nilly to the Maze Runner. Here's the problem with the Maze Runner franchise. As we're talking about sort of launching pads for teens, I love Dylan O'Brien. Dylan O'Brien comes out of Teen Wolf and he does like the Maze Runner franchise. Kai does the Maze Runner franchise. Thomas Brody Sankster does the Maze Runner franchise. Like it should have been the Hunger Games for the Twilight, for these very talented kids. Like they cast it well and it just never hit the way that some of these other teen franchises can hit. And so just like Dylan O'Brien has been in like a weird holding pattern for a long point in his career and like is finally, I think, you know, blowing up. Sandh help is on Hulu if you want to watch it. I actually did catch up on it. I'm very excited. I think you would really enjoy it. But like Kai, I've been waiting and the gentleman was a good start, but she deserves even more. But I mean, these actors often do need those sorts of platforms. And I'm not like from a professional standpoint as a young actor, getting in a giant franchise, like the Maze Runner or getting in a- With hate and disrespect to the Maze Runner in your heart. But it's very popular. It makes a lot of money. It's usually popular books, you know, like on paper. People are going to show up. And that's where you develop those relationships with those actors. It's like the first time I saw Austin Abrams was in Paper Towns, which is not a very good adaptation of a book that I've never read. I was about to say, you seem like a real John Green guy, but then I remembered you're not a novel guy. Not a novel guy. But you are a John Green guy. I do appreciate John Green's perspective. I enjoy his podcasting work. I enjoy his perspective on the world. My main takeaway from watching that movie was like, how did they get two net wolves in this? And that's kind of, that's the Chalamet, Austin Abrams lane. It's true. It's true. He did, he did double net wolf on that. Yeah. I mean, Austin Abrams did Dash and Lily on Netflix, which was like a very, I don't know. I'm really, I have my, I don't know, I think he's going to do big things. I really do. Well, if we take this alumni group for skins, I agree with you. Like Daniel Kaluya is an incredible talent. Again, and it was someone who I also just wish was in even more stuff than he's already in. And he's in quite a bit. But between Holt Kaluya, Dev Patel, Jack O'Connell, when we're looking back at this generation of actors in 30 years, who do you think is like the stand out if there is one of that group? Because they're all still quite young. Absolutely. So if I had to pick one right now in 2026, it's Jack O'Connell. Yeah. I mean, he's having quite a year. If I have to like speak truth to my heart, it's Nick Holt, but I just have a lot of loyalty to Nick Holt. I support him in all of his endeavors. I can't be mad about that. What's your, what's your, I love Dev Patel. Like I love Dev Patel. He's making some baffling choices, but like, and I'm with the internet that's like Dev Patel make a rom-com. Like absolutely. That would be wonderful. Dev Patel should have been Heathcliff and Wuthering Heights. I would have loved that. Like there's, there's a lot that Dev Patel is not doing that I would like to see him do, but I'll just rewatch the Green Night in the meantime and have a good time. I will rewatch it every day for the rest of my life and have a wonderful, have a wonderful moment. That's kind of what he needs. It's like Nick Holt and Daniel Kaluya have worked with, and I would say Jack O'Connell too, like some very impressive visual directors. Yeah. Dev Patel has had some of that experience, but also like caught some of them on their worst days in terms of some of the movies they've made, his own vehicle for himself. Like you get the motivation behind it and what he was trying to do with Monkey Man. I really wanted that to go and it just didn't, I was. It's a hard thing to do. Mallory and I were, we went to the premiere at South by and we were just sort of like, and the whole room was just vibrating with excitement. And then we watched the movie and we were like, yeah, the bones are here. The idea is here and watch Dev talk, like Dev got on stage and talked about like the way in which he practically killed himself in order to make that movie. He's like, and then I nearly lost a finger and then I did this and I was like, Dev Patel, don't kill yourself. We need you and please don't kill yourself for Monkey Man of all things. So yeah. But he can be quite dashing in a green night if also kind of a failure in his way in that movie. But I also like him in the sort of like in over his head, kind of neurotic like newsroom style roles too. I think he can play all sides of that spectrum in a way where I just don't understand why he's not one of the biggest deals on the planet even right now. This is why one of my own like few graphic teas I own is Dev Patel Summer because I'm like a huge Dev fan. On the Jack O'Connell front, I will say like the first, because I had not seen him in Skins. The first thing that he did that caught my attention was Start Up, which is an incredible like prison movie. And I think for people who watch him on Skins, do watch him do this incredibly adult like a harrowing violent sort of film was a huge deal. But for him to do that, to do talking about literary adaptations, Dev has done a Dickens and Jack O'Connell has done Lady Charley's Lover and he's fantastic in that that deserves way more attention than it got. And then now he's in the sort of like Sinners 28 years later, is going to do a Godzilla and Kong movie, ill-advised. When has that ever been a good idea? Okay, don't turn your nose up at Godzilla versus Kong. We respect both Godzilla and Kong on this podcast. It's not versus, it's like Godzilla X Kong. Well, now they're not exactly enemies. I don't know if you caught up with the last movie, but like there was another ice Godzilla and an ice Kong. Oh yeah, it's a real adventure. It's very, Joe, there is an extended sequence in the Godzilla versus Kong sequel in which Dan Stevens has to be basically a giant dentist for King Kong. Like that's a plot point in the movie. Someday we'll have our reckoning with Dan Stevens and what's going on there. That's not the problem. Godzilla versus Kong, he is amazing in and they're genuinely very fun movies. So I support that. Okay, so it's Godzilla X Kong, like with alongside Kong, the new empire is the 2024 one that you're like really into. I think both of the first two are good for the record. Okay, great. Good to know that this is your, this is your garbage cinema. Charles Dickens eats shit. This is your garbage cinema. Godzilla and Kong can come play. So this is Godzilla and Kong supernova is what we're talking and they've got Caitlyn Dever, Dan Stevens, Jack O'Connell, Delroy Lindo, Sam Neal and Matthew Maudine. Okay. Where's the problem here? I have a lot of problems. The Quiet Place part three, Jack O'Connell is also doing, I have some questions about it. And then I'm just, I'm really rooting for all of these skins kids, but I think Jack O'Connell just like really has some juice and he's got some real momentum right now. He's got a lot of fire under him in terms of his career in a way that Daniel Caluya did and has at various points, but it seems like he's made some trade-offs and some choices as far as what he wants to be doing with his life. I think it's partially like from the interviews that I've read, this is partially like his choice to sort of, I don't want to be as much the height of that, the heat of like the height of, I mean, get out Black Panther, like that era is a lot to handle. So he's just sort of like, let's just calm down. Let me be Spider Punk. He's so good. Where's my Spider Punk movie? How similar is Spider Punk to, I guess it's quite different than Posh Kenneth, you know? Very, very different energies. What do you want for Nick Holt? And why doesn't he have an Oscar yet? What do I want? I mean, I am, I'm eager about this Superman sequel and the idea of him having like an even juicier Superman X Lex, not V Lex. Shaky alliances. I mean, we love a shaky alliance. Were you the one who were like, you were reporting that your parents are watching Young Sherlock? They are watching Young Sherlock. And you were really upset to learn that Sherlock a more yardier friends. You don't have to, you don't have to air me out. It's just like, if you're going to make a Young Sherlock show, guess what? They're going to be, they're going to be teenage friends. Yeah. Superman and Lex have been friends on Smallville, but I'd love to see them be friends. I was in the trenches with Smallville, but I'm happy to say that Nick Holt is one of the best Lex representations we've had on screen. Oh, really? I think he's been very good. So I am looking forward to that sequel. I don't know what the small scale project I want for him is because he has tried a lot of stuff. He has dabbled in many genres, many types of parts. He's not in Varevulf, is he? I don't think so. I think he did notice Varatu and packed up his leather satchel and went on his way. But the crevats. What are you supposed to do with all those crevats? He was in the J.R.R. Tolkien biopic, Tolkien that nobody watched. So there is that. He did do that. He is in a project that I'm excited about and you don't give a shit about, which is the David Leach film, How to Rob a Bank. Nick Holt, Anna Sawai, Zoe Kravitz. I mean, look, David Leach knows how to sap the life out of us talented cast. Like that is something he has the power to do. I'm excited. I'm excited for that. Yeah, I don't think that one's going to work. But how dare you? You love Anna Sawai. You're going to show up. I love Zoe Kravitz. I love the entire cast that you listed, but like, what are we doing with David Leach? Come on. He's also the star of Tom Ford's, you know, I mentioned A Single Man, which is a Tom Ford film that I love and own on physical media and will watch a million times. And yet you're not a nocturnal animals person. Remember how much trade you were to find out that I was not? I really thought we're going to be on that island together. But you abandoned me. You were all alone. You were ruined me. Just you and young Moriarty together forever. But yeah, this is a Tom Ford film, cry to heaven based on 1982 Anne Rice. So like Pete Cocaine, Anne Rice era. I think this is going to be great. I think anything that is somebody's Pete Cocaine era is great Nicholas Holt material. Nick Holt and nocturnal animals own Golden Globe winner, Aaron Taylor Johnson. Let's go. All right, sounds great. Anything else you want to say? We've kind of gone far afield, but anything else you want to say about skin? I mean, I do think we at least need to acknowledge some of the ways that all of this stuff about like, oh, this is controversial. Oh, this is boundary pushing. This is edgy. And it's like also a lot of the performers, especially the women who are on the show were like, this made me deeply uncomfortable to do, especially in retrospect. I mean, it's not great. And this is the thing where it's like, you want to make a teen show where the characters feel like they have a lot of autonomy, right? And I like, I think this is an area where euphoria feels to me. I'm not behind the scenes. I don't see everything going on with the production feels slightly different. You hear conversations about like, oh, Sydney Sweeney said she wanted to draw the line here. And so they did. And they took out these scenes. They changed these plot lines. They cut out some of the nudity, even though that may seem ridiculous to think about when you watch euphoria. Yeah, Sydney Sweeney has drawn lines. Believe it or not, they did take things out of euphoria. But the idea that these, again, very teenage performers were on a show in which they were dictated like, and the women have said, like, I showed up to set on day one and they're like, the first thing you're shooting is a sex scene at a point in time where there was really no oversight about this kind of stuff. Like, it does feel a little gross. Something that Daniel Kiliu said in that interview that I was reading where he talked, he said they did not give the cast the scripts until like right before they shot. And I was like, but why? Yeah, but why, you know, if it's for that reason, so that like young impressionable at the beginning of their career, actors can't get in the room and say no. And I think like young actors, like I don't want to take away like their choices, like they get to make those calls. I think a lot of young actors are game for a lot of different things, but you have to give them a chance to prepare for it. And like physically, emotionally, in terms of their character and their work, there's just like little stuff about the background of the show that I'm reading. And I'm like, like, like April Pearson, who plays Michelle posted this thing where she literally was looking at the script for this episode, right? Like looking back at the script for the pilot and the way Michelle is described in the script is quote, jailbait, beautiful, wearing a tiny skirt and top. And it's like, I understand very different time and place, like different things were kind of flying under the radar in a lot of different aspects, but like that's just gross in any time. That being part of the show, I think is unfortunate and inextricable. And also part of the shock value of the whole thing as far as like, yeah, these are real teenagers who I also want to note, I think a big part of this is the difference in the age of consent in the UK versus here and what adulthood means and is there's like this, this gray area of like, yes, you are technically 16 years old and thus in the UK, you are an adult and you can do and show things on TV as a result of that. They're just like, would not really happen here. But also, are you an adult in every other sense of that word? It's just, it's a little too gray for me at times. I think this is a good opportunity for us to shout out one of the other shows that we're thinking of doing, which is Normal People, which when you watch this show and any of the, and euphoria for that matter, like, I think the, you know, like sexiest, demiest of all of those is Normal People, a show that was done with extreme care and, you know, intimacy coordination at every step of the way. And those young actors have talked about the way in which even though this was a, like, first project for them, they were treated with the utmost respect. And it's just sort of like, and then they generated like a thing that got a lot of people through COVID, you know? And so it can be done without this disgusting aspect. Even just with the bare minimum considerations. And we've kind of gone around the bend on the whole intimacy coordinator conversation and different performers and different people feel so differently about what is, what should be necessary in that room. Whatever you feel is necessary, skins didn't have it. I can assure you based on reading about it. Not even the option of it. Nope. No. All right. Anything else you want to talk about? I think we covered most of it. I mean, again, all of that said, I still am very interested in watching more of the show and understanding more of these characters. It's just, I'm clutching my pearls just like everyone else, I guess. It's a rite of passage, Rob. You're officially old now. Welcome. We will be back with more euphoria, of course. Live on Sunday nights, live not really, but instant-ish reactions on Sunday nights. The panic is there. The discomfort of watching that show with your coworkers is there. Please, student, find out. I mean, that's really the most euphoria experience possible. It's like, how do you go into a weird, vulnerable, sexual place in a room with a bunch of people you work with? That's just what it is. That's Sunday nights here at Sycamore Studios. And then we'll be covering more Widows Bay coming up. Episode four, Widows Bay is an absolute banger, so I'm really excited for us to cover that. And then we'll be checking with Friday Night Lights at the end of the month, Texas forever, Rob. What a lineup. I mean, what are we doing? Just enjoying ourselves. Who's programming this thing? Thank you to Dev, our very own Dev, not Patel. It's Dev Ronaldo's summer, as far as I'm concerned. Every summer. Get the shirts made. Thanks to Jacob, who is here. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to Kai Grady, who is not here, but here always in spirit. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. Thank you to the traumatized teens of the United Kingdom. Thanks to the flip phone? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you to 10 to 12-layered tank tops. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you to the Overworked Flatirons. We appreciate you, Myspace. They need a rest. Tom from Myspace, you're my friend forever. Bye.