How We Met a Listener: Jessica [SPOILER Alert!]

Hey everybody, Craig Thomas here with Josh Radner. We just wanted to start off this episode. It's a very special episode of the podcast. It is rife with spoilers for the end of the series and to be like the entire sort of forward jumping through the entire series, which we do not do week to week episode to episode in our recap episodes. This is definitely not that. It is big spoilers. It is how the series ends. It is major spoilers. Let's salute it. And we will salute it so that you will recognize that if you don't want to hear major spoilers, please don't listen to this one. But if you do want to hear that and you do know where we go with the series, please do listen to this one. Because as you're going to hear, it's really one of the most special episodes of this podcast that we've ever done. Yeah. And also, we just wanted to, if you're feeling particularly sensitive right now, you have every reason to. The world is a very tough place. In fact, this episode does go very deeply into loss and grief and death. So if this isn't where you are right now, also feel free to skip it and come back to it another time. But we do think this is an incredibly special, wonderful episode of How We Made Your Mother. And we're really happy you're here. Welcome to a very special edition of How We Made Your Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm joined by my co-host and dear friend, Craig Thomas. Hi, Craig. Hey, Josh. Hey. So regular listeners of this podcast will know that one of our favorite things about the show is hearing from fans, long-time viewers, new viewers even. But we have a thing on the website, HowWeMadeYourMother.com, where you can go, we'll tell you how to do it. You can go to contact and you can either send us a voice note or send us a written note. And we start every show, most shows, with a voice note we have received. And at the end of the show, we read a letter we have received. And it's just been this very special way that we have learned how the show has affected people, how it's continued to affect people, change their lives, when they discovered it, what it meant to them, continues to mean to them. And about a year ago, one of the earliest voice notes we received right after the show premiered was from a woman named Jessica, who shared with us her story about How We Made Your Mother. And we were absolutely bowled over by this note, so bowled over that we wanted to create a whole episode around this note. And we wanted to invite Jessica onto the show. She's here with us right now, but we're not going to introduce her just yet. We want to actually play you the note we received. And again, this is a full-on bubble-wrapped spoiler alert episode in terms of... If you have not seen the finale, if you've not gotten all the way to the end of the series and you don't want to spoil this, don't listen to this episode for a while. We're breaking every rule today. We're breaking every rule. We're not jumping ahead and giving huge series spoilers. Today's the huge exception to that rule. So if you don't want to hear huge spoilers, turn it off now. But otherwise, please listen if you know where the series ends up, because we want you to hear this. And a show that really honors nonlinear narrative. I feel like we're doing that here today. Huge flash forward right now. Huge flash forward in the podcast timeline. Yeah. So again, we received this note from Jessica. We were so moved by it. We've been sitting with this note for about a year. And we knew we wanted to do something special with it. So this whole episode is centered around that. But before we launch into it, we're just going to play you the note. So this is the note we received, the voice note we received one year ago. Hi. My name is Jessica. I live in Brooklyn, New York. How I met your mother has meant a lot of things to me over the years. And recently, came back into my life through circumstances I've been in. When I started watching how I met your mother, it was in 2005 when it aired. I had just moved to New York a year prior. I had a group of friends I hung out with sometimes in bars. I was perpetually single and trying to find that special person. Imagining I meet them in that typical way that you imagine in the movies where someone drops their groceries and you both lean down to pick them up and make that eye contact. Fast forward a lot of mishap to dating that really related to that show to me. And it's amazing this podcast came up when it did. So I got married when I was in my mid-30s. I had a child, a 39, with an amazing guy that I met in Brooklyn. And we built a family together. We were together for eight years. We were together for eight years and married for five. My husband was born with a congenital heart defect. And he lived his life with this for a long time. I had to go in the hospital a few times in his life, but always did well. And he almost got a heart transplant recently because he got very sick at the end of December, right after Christmas. And came home for a bit, had to go back to the hospital. It was a whirlwind of things. And then he didn't qualify for the heart transplant. And that was very hard. So we had to make a decision as a family that he was going to die. And we did that. And he went to palliative care, which is essentially care instead of treatment. And later to hospice. And in the last hospital he went to, which was in Brooklyn, which was closer to home, as I was walking home from visiting him one day, he, I realized, oh my God, Ted's wife died. And the ending of the show that used to make me so confused sometimes, because I loved her simile eye and I loved the relationship that her and Ted had. And I realized in that moment that that was the point is that you were supposed to love her and want them to be together forever. But it just wasn't meant to be. But you can have more than one love in your life. My husband died on March 9th, the day before your podcast aired. And I just found it so appropriate and so crazy. The timing of it all. How you let your mother is a very important show to me. And it's paralleled my life in some ways, but it's also just very humorous and funny and silly. And I've always been rooting for it all the time, but it's also very grounding. It's a grounding show. And it's real. People were so upset about the ending, but that ending was real because I felt it. And I thank you for being there for me right after my husband's death, because this podcast is really, really touching me in a deep way. And thank you, Josh, for your time. And thank you, Josh, for opening back up to this world. Because that means a lot to me, too. And I think you're great. Thank you. So that was a note from Jessica. We're all moved over here. And you can understand, I'm sure, why that note affected us the way it did and why it stayed with us. And yeah, Jessica's here. We just really want to welcome her to the show. Hi, Jessica. How are you? Hi, Jessica. Welcome to how we made your mother. We're good. Thank you. We're so happy you're here. And we're so happy that... I'm happy to be here. Yeah, we're so happy you left us that note. And I'm curious, what's it like to hear that back? Like, do you feel like you said... I feel like you said exactly what you needed to say, but do you feel that you really captured what you felt? Yeah, I do, because I didn't write anything down. So I sent that note only a few weeks after my husband passed away, in April. And I really felt like I needed to share a little bit of my story, because the podcast helped me so much. The fact that it was airing on March 10th, I literally went, oh my god, I have something to look forward to. I have something to be excited about. And the fact that you can leave voice messages and do that kind of thing made me... So yeah, I feel like it's very authentic. And when I hear it now, I really feel like how much I've progressed since then. I mean, grief always stays with you, but it sort of grows with you as you evolve over time. And I feel like I hear where I was in my voice, like where I was in that moment. So moving. And by the way, just to say, we're so sorry for your loss and we're so sorry for your loss. Thank you. And that you had to go through that. But thank you for sharing that moment back then, at that time, when it was so new and so fresh and raw, the idea that you would be so generous to us to share that with us, like as artists, I guess we're putting stuff out in the world, hoping it connects with people and like the gift of getting to hear what that meant to you and even what the podcast means to you. Like, I just hope you know what a gift and how generous that was of you to share that with us. So just first off, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, Jessica, I want to just take you back when you... So you started watching, you said, right around when it premiered, right? 2005. That was right around the time you moved to New York. Yeah, it was in my early 20s. Okay, so you were kind of... You were like living this, how I met your mother life, actually in New York City while we were fictionally. You were our target audience. In Los Angeles, fake living New York City life. And you said that it really resonated with you, you know, you're spending time in bars with friends, you're dating, there's mishaps, you're hoping to meet someone, it's working out, it's not working out, all the stuff of your 20s and your early 30s. And so it seems like you... What did the show mean to you before we get to the finale? Like, what was the show to you? First of all, I think it's a really great ensemble show, and I love ensemble shows in general, meaning that all of the actors, you too, Josh, were very good at portraying their characters and were like perfect casting, I felt. And when you have a show like that, I feel like the story just kind of lends itself to being so relatable. I also felt like for some people, I knew it was a hard show to get into for them, and I didn't know why. And I would have to convince people sometimes, like no, there's a laugh track, but it's like good. Like there's like good stuff underneath. Hey, we have the same issue too. We'll be right back. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that more dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life, because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts. And now back to the show. A lot of women, I know, call in and say they relate to Ted, or, you know, and that kind of thing. I definitely relate it to that character. I also had friends that had a best friend that got married in her early 20s or mid 20s. So I had a friend that was getting married already. I had friends in long-term relationships. So I kind of related to this idea of being like the single person trying to find my way and navigate the world. So that's what related me to the show at first. And I also just thought it was funny. I don't know, and relatable. I don't know. I just liked it. And Lily was a teacher and I'm a teacher. So I really... Right. And you're a teacher of young kids, right? Yes. Right. You do work with younger kids just like Lily was a, she was a kindergarten teacher. And so that is that that's where you're at too, or where you were at then anyway, and your educational career, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes I think we want to watch shows that take place in outer space or the middle ages. But another pleasure of TV and movies is watching that this could be me, or this, that happened to me, or that might have happened to me. It's nice to see your own life reflected back in a somewhat heightened, but realistic way. So, yeah, I really understand that. And so just flash forward a little bit to the finale. So this is a show you love dearly. You said you loved Kristen Miliotti and Ted and Tracy's relationship. And so did you watch the finale like with a group of people? Did you watch it by yourself? Like what do you remember? I think I was by myself. I can't remember. But I do remember being surprised by it at the time. But then I remember the next day there was like this, there were like articles about it. Like everyone's up in arms about it. I was like, wow, I was like, okay. So I didn't have that big of a reaction, but I was a little like, you were angry. And I had mixed feelings about it. But I felt like okay with it, but I had mixed feelings. But it was in that moment when I was, it's weird how that happened in such a real moment when I'm leaving the hospital and I'm thinking about how I met your mother. But like, because I had so many small moments in the show that related to my life sometimes, like it just felt like, like, oh, I get it now. Because when someone, when someone you really love dies, you see the world differently. Even though I thought I had life experiences and I had all these experiences, you and I think in that show, and I don't know if you guys intended this, but it felt like meeting Tracy when we did wasn't very intentional. Because like, it felt like, oh, they're supposed to be together for like 11 years. Is that right? Yeah. And that's something like that. I don't, yeah, it's in that zone. Yeah, we'll double check with her. Yeah. And like, but, you know, I think fans are upset because it felt so short, but their journey together didn't feel so short. But when someone dies, it all kind of condenses like that, like all those memories. So to me, like I connected to it in that way. Yeah. So, so, so I remember we had this, how I met your mother podcast while the show was on the air that Alec, our current producer was, he was in charge of all the digital content, but he also hosted and produced the podcast. And he had me on for maybe Alec in fact, I don't know if it was the last podcast we officially did, but I'd been on it a number of times, but it was the last one we did. And we went really deep on the finale. And I remember Alec said something to me that really stated that he said, I think what a lot of people were mad about for the finale was they were actually angry at death itself, like the fact of death. Yeah. Like, like they were angry that it intruded upon their light fun New York City show. Yeah. And especially when you're dealing with people in their 20s and 30s, you're hoping that death does not invade or touch that, you know, maybe a parent or a grandparent or whatever. But, you know, and this is maybe a question for Craig, but we introduced, you know, I think if you look at how I met your mother and you and you look at it, bird's eye, you know, 360, like really get up high and look at it, not episode to episode, but the arc of the show. It's about time. It's about loss. It's about change of expectation. You know, no one, no one quite got what they wanted and when they wanted it. And, you know, there's, it's always the, the universe had different plans than you had. So I think that, you know, Craig, maybe you can speak to this, but Craig and Carter really wove in the seat. They planted the seeds for something much more meaningful, much more depth filled than your average kind of laugh track sitcom. And I think that was confusing to people because a laugh track kind of promises bright lights, happy ending at the end of each episode. It's all going to resolve itself. It's diversion from your hard work day, Americans. Like it's all going to be okay. And, you know, Craig, can you speak to that a little bit? Like, like what you and Carter were up to the long game of it? Yeah. You know, I, Ted was this planner, right? Ted was this architect. We meet him in the pilot. He's planning out everything that his wedding is going to be, that he hasn't even met the woman yet, but he knows he's, he's just down to whether it's a band or DJ, everything else is pretty much worked out. And that's the pilot. That's the first episode. And then 206 episodes later, we, you know, we sort of approached this ending that shows life not going according to plan. And I think that was hard for a bunch of people. It was a very divisive finale because there were people who loved the idea that this was showing the messiness of life and the chaos of life. And then there were people who really wished it had just had the more neat romantic comedy ending that didn't touch upon those things at all. And it is strange to see a laugh track TV show try to touch upon grief and loss and cover, you know, decades and in an hour long episode and, and touch upon, yeah, touch upon things not going according to plan. Our premise was there's so many romantic comedies and so many movies and fairy tales and stories and books and series and that have that neat ending. And if you want that, there's a lot of other versions of that you can go get in pop culture and literature. Like there's a lot of that. And we thought it would be really interesting to do something different. And it seems to resonate more, it seems to resonate more and more with people as we all get older and grow up, we hear more and more nice things about the finale and more and more people saying I hated it, but now I get it. And you're never more movingly or eloquently, Jessica, than the way you put it in that voice memo. And again, we're so grateful to hear that from you and to get that, that, you know, essentially the finale air 12 years ago. Now, something like that coming up on 12 years and to get to hear from you what it was to you then and what it is to you now. And even a year past the voice memo, it's maybe something different, right? You were you, you listened to your own messages just now and said, boy, that that was also a different me. And that's the other huge premise of the show that there's never and there's nothing's ever solved. It's not like now I'm the person I'm always going to be in the chapter that's always going to exist in these ingredients of life that will never change. No, life is these chapters and we all we're sold this fairy tale that it's all going to work out and we're going to meet the one. But what if the one what if we live past that chapter? Can there be another one? Can there be another whole adventure? Can there be another whole life past what you thought was the solution to all of your problems? And, you know, we were playing with those kinds of ideas. It didn't hit everyone. Some people were really angry at that. And some people really felt seen by that even at the time. And now it's interesting to have 12 years of hearing people live life and think about it in their life. And we're again, so grateful to hear from you about it, Jessica. But it seems like I'd love to hear more about what it's been like in this past year for you too. I mean, I have so many questions for you, but what is this past year? Who are you when you're going? Who are you now? And what is that grief journey been like? Well, what's a big question? Who am I now? Well, you know, so I have a son, I have a five-year-old son. So it's transitioning from, you know, being a family to being a single parent. So that's been a big change. And just, I think the biggest thing is, and I'm still doing it, but finding who you are in all of this, when you're with someone for eight years, even though I had a life before I met my husband, because I didn't get married until my mid-30s, we didn't really get together until that time, you can't really go back to the person you used to be. You've kind of become this person in your marriage, and you become a family, and you become this unit. And then it just swiftly changes. And if you look at things, I think the hardest thing for me was going to the doctor's office and changing my status to widow, which seems like such an archaic, simple thing, but it was hard for me to see myself that way. It really does sound like the 1800s or something. Yes. Yeah, but it's like, I'm not a couple. I'm not a thing. I'm just, that's, you know, right. But even though I don't have to label myself that way, those little things were really hard for me. But if it feels like a transformation, I describe to people, and I'm usually a super positive person, but you get into really dark places when you go through grief, and I haven't really experienced grief in this capacity in my life before. You know, I've lost like an aunt, I've lost a grandparent, but this is very different on your psyche, because I think your brain wants the person to be there, and you think they're there. But your body and your brain do these crazy things. So, you know, and you make choices and decisions, and you're like, I don't know if that was the right decision. But I feel like, and one of the things I was doing, which is part of my personality is I just wanted to be social, because I felt like connecting with people and being with people is the best thing. And some people are the total opposite of that. They would like, you know, want to be alone, not talk to anybody. And so one of those things was like, this podcast, I'm going to call this podcast and tell them my story. I'm going to do this. And I don't know what propelled me to really be that open, but I just felt like sharing that. And I guess with artists too, like made me feel good. Yeah, so this year has been interesting. I feel like I'm in a more steady place now, but it changes, you know, it's one of those things where you could look at a tree and like you just start crying for no reason, because that tree reminds me of them for some reason. Right. Right. That's, but that's, and I've learned like that's just how it works. And I've probably read so many books on grief and all kinds of podcasts on grief. But it's, it's, yeah, so it's, it's a journey for sure. You know, I, I, in moments of deep grief in my own life, and I've also talked to other people who've experienced deep loss that, that there's a, you know, beneath it, the shattering and the tragedy and the hurt. Like, there's something really incredible about weeping at the sight of a tree, right? That, that, that makes you feel like you're actually like more alive, like more awake, more alert, more sensitive to how hard it is to be a human being, your empathy expands. I mean, there's, I love Nick Cave. I don't know if you know Nick Cave. Yeah. Yeah. So he, he has these red hand files that he writes these weekly emails and he lost two children. And he has a book called Faith, Hope and Carnage, which if you haven't read, I recommend it. You can listen to it too. It's just conversations with him and this Irish journalist. And a lot of it is about grief and art and creativity, but the most, most of it's about grief. And he said that, he said this thing that I think about all time when his son died, his teenage son, he thought he was entering this incredibly small, tragic circle of grieving people. And then he realized he was entering this enormous community of grieving people that there were so many people that had lost people that had hit, you know, various bottoms in their life that were just soaked in grief. And he, he realized he had actually like entered the human family in a different way. And that it wasn't this isolating event. It was more of a like, it, it, it, it, uh, knit him to other people. Did you have some of that? Yes. Uh, I, I joined a grief group actually, uh, just for young spouses, like people who have had young spouses that died. It's probably one of the best things I've ever done. Um, I didn't know how it would be, but, and there's all people from all different backgrounds, but it feels like you're in this club that you don't really want to be in, but like you're so grateful that you are in a way. Um, and it's, it's a lot like you, you said, Josh, like it's so, um, it's, you do see the world in the whole new way. And I described it to someone recently as seeing the world in 360. Like I, I kind of just see everything from all sides now. Um, and, and this is coming from a person that's, I'm incredibly empathetic, I think, and very open to a lot of ideas and people, but I just see, uh, I see pain differently. Um, every day struggles differently. Um, especially when someone dies that you, and everyone feels this way, I'm sure, about people they love who died, but like he was someone who really deserved to live longer. Yeah. Like he deserved to live this life on earth and he's not anymore. And, uh, it's, it's, it's, not only do I have to reconcile that for myself, but also for my son. And so it's, it's, there's, there's those things too, but it's, um, it's a journey, you know, and, and I don't, I don't know how my son, I think about my son too, and how he's going to evolve over time too without having his father, what that means for me in the future. Um, and to, to segue back to the show, um, I think it's kind of beautiful and amazing. I thought to myself, how wonderful would it be that I went back to the first person I loved? Like, like that was a person I ended up with. Like he goes back to Robin. Like how, how, how lucky is that? Like he gets to have that in his life. Like he gets to go back to his, the first person that really knows him. Like that's, that's kind of a beautiful ending actually. So it does kind of wrap it up kind of neatly. Neely and messily at the same time. We'll be right back. And now back to the show. What we're also talking about, we're talking about lots of different things, but one of the things that I think you're speaking to is that what Craig was talking about, we change. There's no static version of us. There's no frozen version of us. We're, we're always changing, but also as we change the art we love changes with us. If it's good art, I think there is some art that is just like, that's what it is, you know, but I don't know if you've had this experience. I certainly have where a book I loved when I was younger, I read it 20 years later and it just doesn't resonate the same way. It just, it hit 17 year old me in a way. It's not going to hit 37 year old me. And conversely, art that did not make any sense to me when I was younger or baffled or angered me. When I'm older, I've had enough experience with grief, loss, failure, setback, struggle that it moves me in a completely different way. So I think that it's really, I just love your insight that, you know, you don't sound like one of the, uh, Storm the barricades, how I met your mother finale people, like, uh, like, uh, pitchforks outside of CBS. Like, you don't sound like one of those people. There were those people. They're continue to be those people. But you did say that you were kind of angered and annoyed and confused, would you say? Or like, I wasn't angry. I mean, I don't think I could ever get that angry. But you were, you were kind of confused by it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or just like it wasn't the, the, it didn't land where you maybe wanted it to or hoped it to in that moment. Yeah. And I think disappointed is a good word. Okay. But I think that's how, but I realized that's, I think that's how you're, we're supposed to feel a little bit. Sure. I mean, when, when someone dies that you love unexpectedly, how else would you, you know, you feel, I mean, disappointment is a mild word for it. But, you know, you feel, uh, you've, I think some of the fans were actually having like a weirdly appropriate response, which is they felt robbed. Yeah. Right. They felt robbed of their happy ending. But you know, who else did was Ted? Yes. Yeah. Yes. You know. And it took him a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole, and the whole show, when you look at it through that lens is a father preparing to ask his children this incredibly vulnerable thing. Like, are you okay if I, if I, if I give it another shot with this woman that obviously, you know, I have always loved and is in our lives. And, you know, he's really prepared, the whole show looked at through that lens is like this achingly beautiful thing, Craig. I just, I don't, I mean. Well, he's asking, he, the whole story is to, is leading to a question with, to his kids, which is, is this okay with you guys? Is it okay for me to love again? Is it okay for me just to try again? Is it okay to see if that's there for me in this way with this person who you know, and you love and is, is family to us in a way. Yeah. And has been and is it okay? Is it okay to do that? And his kids want him to be happy. So they say yes. And in that, in that sense, that's what the story was leading up to for that, you know, up to that was the way we were approaching the whole series in a way. And some, yeah, some, some folks really got that. And some folks really didn't. It's really interesting. I mean, Josh and I went through so much, so much in the nine years we made that show. I wanted to share this with you, Jessica, that my son was born between year two and three. And he was born with life-threatening congenital heart disease. And he had four different heart problems that required open heart surgery when he was two weeks old. And there was about 50, 50 chance of survival. And he's 18 now, and he's doing great. But in between year and two and two and three of the show, I did, I thought we might, it was our my first born child, and we thought he might, we might lose him. Yeah. And I just the way that kind of, for me at least colored the way I viewed the show and approached the show and Carter too, he was so in that with me. Josh was so in that with me. It was just like this really big life thing was happening alongside our sitcom. And these collaborators and dear friends like Josh and like Carter and Pam Freiman and all the whole, and everybody like they were there with me on that journey. They saw me and my wife and Elliot comes through this really, really life or death and then life or death. And then well, he lived now what now what's life. And it just, I don't know, it put us on a different trajectory. And obviously the fact when I heard in your message that your husband had this life long congenital heart problem that eventually took him, right. And I felt that so much too, because my that's my son too. And my son has life long learning disabilities too, is a rare genetic syndrome. The heart was just part of it. And it's just, for me, that was the moment my life diverged into a different story than the one I thought, right? Which I know is how it feels to lose somebody. Right. There was in a way a loss of the version of parenthood. I thought we were going to have, right? I was there was a loss of a plan, the planned life, the plan life I was supposed to have that I ordered up out of the catalog. I wasn't going to have that life. He my son wasn't going to have that life. My wife wasn't going to have that life. And then the beauty is, okay, what do we do now? And answering that day by day, that's the beauty. That's the beauty of moving on. And you and if you can survive that and live in the discomfort of that, you can discover gifts along the way, even as you feel the loss of what you thought it was all going to be. And I don't know, I just wanted to share that that there's there's a there's a hard issue at the heart of my family too. And I, you know, I don't know, I just feel connected to your story in that way. Thank you. Yeah. And I, I knew that a little bit, but I, so it's funny when I started listening to the podcast again, I had forgotten that story about your son. And I kind of remembered it going on with the show and that the you guys did the fundraisers and things like that. And then I was like, Oh yeah, I was like, Oh wow. Yeah. He did. It's similar situation. And he had a very different one when he was a baby and had like a surgery when he was a baby. And then like just kind of lived with it, had a, had a pacemaker as an adult and like all these things. But, um, but you know, he just went to his regular checkups and it was always fine. And it was like, it was like just to a point where it wasn't fine anymore. Like his, his heart just couldn't keep up anymore. And it was, and it was like one of those things where everyone wanted it to work. And they kept pushing to make it work. And we both kind of knew like it's done. Like it's just, it's just done working for you. Like it doesn't want to work for you anymore. And there's something more to do. And that was, that was really hard. And it felt like, it felt like a decision that we made, but it was something that had to happen. Cause I don't think any doctor wants to say to a 43 year old man, like, okay, I guess that's it. Right. Like no one wants, no one wants to say that they want to fight for you and try to do whatever they can. But you know, it's something my husband said to me before I, what I'm very grateful for is that we had time to talk to each other before he passed away. And one of the things he said to me was, you know, he felt like his purpose was to have our child. He felt like that was, that was the point of like him being here. And he went through like a lot of times in his life where he was like depressed a little bit and got out of it. And when he met me, he was like a really high point in his life. He was doing really well in his thirties. And he felt like I'm going to try to do something for myself and not worry about my mortality. And, you know, we built this life for eight years. And I felt like that's maybe what he was supposed to do is just kind of find that time to embrace life in his adulthood. And, but anyway, and we have this amazing, amazing healthy kid. So I, you know, yeah, I, you know, I can't, you know, but yeah, but thank you. Thank you, Craig, for sharing that again. I'm so glad that he got to experience the gift of you and the gift of your child and that he felt that was the meaning in his life. Because of course that is, that is the beauty and meaning of life. And I'm so glad that he got that. And, you know, I'm so glad he got that with you. I heard his story years ago about Merrill Streep was with for years with the actor John Kazali, who's this toweringly great American character actors and dog day afternoon, godfather. And he was just so respected among actors. And they were very much in love. And he, I think, had a brain tumor or something. And he had a death that was like swift, but gave them enough time to do what you were talking about. And I know another actor who's dear friends with her, I never met her, but he told me that he ran into her in New York while John Kazali was dying. And he asked how she was doing. He knew she was going through this. And she said, it's the saddest thing in the world, but I have never been so present with anyone in my life. Like just the time that they were sharing, you know, it felt like they had entered into a timeless flow state together where they weren't even bound by time anymore. And I think sometimes we mistake longevity for like that it's more meaningful the longer you get, but that's not necessarily true. Right. You know, some moments that that eight years together can be more, you know, filled with meaning and import than, you know, then a 50 year marriage where you're not talking about much, you know, you're not really talking about all the real stuff. But my wife, Jordana, who you've probably heard on the show, questions and observations from a clinical psychologist who's never seen how I met my mother and also happens to be married to Josh. So she's a clinical psychologist and her PhD thesis was on the connection between love and death and how a more present awareness of our mortality increases intimacy. So I imagine that you and your husband were just at this kind of achingly intimate time in those moments before. But she also she introduced me to this quote from John Fowles, a novelist who said, death is rather like a certain kind of lecturer. You don't really hear what is being said until you're in the front row. Yeah. And it feels to me like people who watched how I met your mother and really viscerally dislike the ending, like they were in the back of the lecture hall. Like they couldn't hear the music and the poetry. And it feels to me like your husband's death put you in the front row. And then it made you reconsider the show because you could hear what it was, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, grief, you can't have love without grief. So it's the cost of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the cost. They go hand in hand. So and that's something I knew intellectually, but like I feel that now. Right. Because you feel it. You feel it in the same way. Like that doesn't, you know, it will never go away. Right. Like I, you know, the love you have for a person will never go away. It just kind of evolves. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in some ways, like when we read novels as teenagers or in your 20s, before you've experienced loss, it's all intellectual, you know? Yeah. And it's hard to, I think one of the big things of how I met your mother is life will season you. Life will, you'll trip enough, you'll get left at enough altars, you'll, you know, your plans will be thwarted enough. Yeah. Yeah. I think that if you let life, if you agree that life is a benevolent teacher, but it's sometimes a ferocious teacher, it really does teach you all the deepest lessons that you could possibly learn. Now, I wish that life taught us through success and triumph and, you know, like it just doesn't seem like the deepest lessons come from those things. They really come from when things get taken away and we discover who we are underneath all that. Yeah. And you see that in the show a lot. Yeah. I was just going to say, like, if I look at Ted, we meet this guy on the pilot who is a planner and a dreamer. Yes. And the series journey is, life telling Ted, maybe stop it with so much planning, but never stop dreaming. And I feel like Ted's letting go of one thing and deepening another and that hope is a good thing in the end. And him asking his kids, can I, can I think about falling in love again? Can it be this person that you already know that's part of our lives who loves you and is his aunt Robin? And that's still hope and that's still a dreamer. That's still a guy who's going to steal a blue French horn a second time. And but it wasn't the plan. It only, he only got there by letting go of the plan. You know, Craig, I have two very dear friends. They're a couple years younger than me, so they're like their mid 40s. And both of them really struggled with relationships, had a hard time getting anything to stick. And they both in the last year or two have reconnected with the great loves of their 20s. Unbelievable. And one of them is Mary is just got engaged. Wow. And the other one is probably like relocating geographically to be with her. That's a more recent reconnection. But it was it was like, you know, the kind of that it was that Ted Robin thing of like, I can't shake it like I can't shake your and I think sometimes, you know, even though life hasn't knocked you around that much, sometimes, you know, I remember the feelings I felt in my 20s, just how vivid things can feel because they're newer, you know, your first love, your first heartbreak, they're all, they all get stitched and etched inside you because we're so, yeah, we have we don't have context for them, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, and what Jessica said about love, like the other big theme of the series, as said by Ted, future Ted, and also Ted in the show says that I think at some point, love is the best thing we do, right? And love doesn't die, you know, like your your love for your husband is in you forever. It's in your child. And like, Ted's Ted's love for Tracy doesn't go away because he wants to maybe love another person, right? He having lost one version of love. Is there is there the hope for another? And I think that's a really poignant touch to hear that about your two friends, because you just can't predict it, right? Like, love, love enters and it takes different forms at different chapters, right? And different moments and it surprises you and it is the best thing we do. And you know, there's a parallel thing just just a rhyme. It's not like exactly at all. But I was very moved, Jessica, when you when you thanked me for reengaging with the show at the end of your note, you know, yeah, and I, I think if you have read interviews I've done or even listened to this podcast, you know, that my perspective on how I met your mother and that time in my life has changed now, yes, now that I'm married, now that I have a son. And I look back at that time and I, I realized like I was really hard on myself. I was doing a really good job. And, you know, that I have been able to reengage with this, this, this massive chapter in my life and share and reflect. And then it almost, it sends out a kind of sonar signal to other people like that they can share and reflect. And they, you know, it obviously if we had, if I hadn't, if my wife hadn't said I'd like to watch the show, and I hadn't called Craig and said, let's do something. And then we called Alex and then we had a podcast up and running. We wouldn't be talking here to you and your, your story and your processing of your grief with us in community would not have happened. So I think that's also another thing of how I met your mother is how everything is connected in this strange web pattern like Wes, you know. Yes. Yeah. If I can say to that too, like I, so like Josh, like after how I met your mother, I would try to follow your career, wherever you were going. And I was like, okay, he's like doing totally different things now. But like, I, you know, I saw you like in disgraced on Broadway and all that. But anyway, I did. But anyway, my point being, I, when you did this podcast, I was like, Oh my God, like he's back into it too. This is crazy. So like I was just, I was just excited because I felt, I, I felt like, you know, well, your wife's amazing, by the way, I'm sure she's amazing. She sounds amazing. But you know, the fact that she reintroduced you to it, I was like, she's a good one. I was like, cause I feel like I needed that real, the real, the real rewatch again of the show. Like, you know, there's a lot of other little podcast things that like fans have tried to do. I don't know if you've noticed that, like other little things that don't really stick. But this was something just really special. And that's why I was so grateful you came back to it. Cause I think you needed to be the one to kind of come back into it. Craig, Craig too, of course, but I feel like the build of you together. I couldn't do, I couldn't do this without Craig because I also, the writer mind that I have, like I need, it's like, you know, I was on set a lot when Craig wasn't on set and Craig was in the writer's room when I wasn't in the writer's room. And I actually like collecting our hive mind experience. So I, cause I'm so curious about the process of like by the time the scripts got to me, they had been working on them for a long time. Yeah. It's, it's really, we're actually filling each other in. I don't, this experience shared and didn't share. And it's Jessica, like, what a gift I like, it's worth us having done this podcast to have met you and gotten and to have you share your story with us. Like it's, it's just, it's such a gift to us. And we're really, really just so grateful for it. Truly. Thank you. Like that's, that's the dream to quote another line from the show. Like you put stuff out there. You hope it will speak to people and find, you know, find people like you. And, and every now and again, we get the gift of hearing that it did. And we were, this is, we were just so moved that you shared that moment, that, and you can hear it in your voice in that message that started off this episode. You can hear where you were in that moment. And you shared that vulnerability with us. And the fact that the show made you feel you could like trust these people you hadn't met until today. It's just a really, it's a real trust fall. So thank you. Yeah. And also, you know, I said to, to my wife this morning, because you'll remember in the first, you know, year of a, of a kid's life, how quickly they change, you know, like how you put them to sleep and then you wake up in the morning, you're like, this is kind of a different kid than the one I put down to bed last night. And, and I forget what it was. She reminded me of something he used to do, but he doesn't do it anymore. And I was like, Oh yeah, he did used to do that. He kind of grew out of that. It was smoking, right? Yeah, yeah, he was a pulmonary. I'm glad he got it, got out of that. Yeah, yeah. But I, I said to her, I wish I'd been journaling kind of ferociously like documenting. No, I know, I regret that all the time. And my friend Omar actually said, I need to come over once a week and videotape you into it, because you're going to forget all this. And of course we haven't done that. We have all the pictures, you know, pictures are good, pictures are good. But there's also something about your voice note is a, you know, it's a journal entry of sorts. It's a snapshot of where you were. And it, you know, it, and also in our listening to it, it was a snapshot of where we were, because we were so early in doing this show. Yes. And I think there was something about when we heard your message, we kind of thought, Oh, this is why we're doing the show. Yeah. For these kinds of moments. And the show is working in, in, in the, you know, not in the, we've taken it the world over and we're, we're beating Joe Rogan numbers. Like that's not what that was. It's saying, you know, the thing we're trying to do, the, the, the sonar blast that we're sending out into the universe is being heard and it's being received and it's being appreciated and loved. And yeah, like Craig said, we're just, we're so grateful you joined us today and we're so vulnerable and just in sharing your story. And yeah, we, we consider you're a friend of the pod, as they say. And if you see me walking around Brooklyn, please say hi. I will. Yeah. Yeah. Same. I, yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Stay in touch. We do the, the, the in the in the house charity of the, of the podcast is raising money for a doctor who researches my son's genetic condition. He's a pediatric cardiologist, congenital heart. So people can, there's, if you go to our website, how I made your mother.com, you can, you can donate to that. So that kind of is the, the go to cause for, for how we made your mother. And we do this concert is where I'm going with this. Yeah. Where Josh performs and the solids perform. We have people from the show come join us. It's June 20th this year. Please come be our guest and join us at the concert and say hi. Like I would love to have you there. I feel like, I'd be like, we can meet you in person too there. So if you want, if you want to come to that, but please like be, you are, you are a friend of the pod. Yes. Please stay in touch because we're, we're so grateful to, to be your friend now. Yay. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jessica. Thanks for being here. It means a lot to have had you here. Thank you. It means a, it means a lot to me and I'm just, I'm, I'm just amazed. I got to meet you both. So all of you. That's how we feel. I appreciate you guys. Thanks, Jessica. You've made my year. You've made my year so much. So I appreciate that. You've done exactly that for us. How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the office ladies network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev, and our co-producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, aka Gen Z master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit howwemajormother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything else at JoshRadner.com. Order Craig Thomas' debut novel, That's Not How It Happened, Wherever Books Are Sold, and check out his other published writings at CraigThomasRider.com. And you can subscribe to my own Dead Fathers Society also on Substack. To learn more about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research, check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact, dance.