What makes the Porsche 911 so cool? Betim, Vinny and Scotto debate why the 911 is so special. VV010

What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Very Vehicular. I'm your host, Brian Scato. And today we actually set out to answer a question. That's right, we're going to stay focused today. And the question is, are Porsches still cool? And does it even matter? To discuss and debate this today, I've got my good buddy Vinny Anatra, who just recently sold his 997 GT3 RS. And I also have Batin Berisha, who runs BBI Autosport. World renowned for building really fast 911s. So whether you love 911s, whether you hate 911s, whether you think the whole 911 thing is over, listen to the three of us wax poetic on why the cars mean something special to us and sort of why the hype came about and why we think the hype is really valid. And disagree with us, because that's the kind of stuff we want to hear. Enjoy the episode. What's up boys? Hey. All right. So today we're going to do something we've never done before on this podcast. Keep it simple. No, we're going to keep it focused. We have a single topic. You guys both know what it is. And the topic is Porsches are more than just cars. And the topic is, are you going to keep it simple? Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. If the Porsches are more than just cool, they're fucking great cars. Yeah, I love it. And the conversation being that we are at probably, I don't know, are we at peak cool or maybe we passed peak cool, but it's now to the point where you're starting to hear people hate on Porsches because they're too cool. But like, that's not what the cars are about. Yeah. I mean, I personally think we might have crowned the peak cool, you know, for like out there, but that's not what's important. But before we get there, because I want to hear it, you had a pretty crazy day the other day. Oh, yeah. You spun Project Evo at 130 miles an hour. It was actually a little more than that, I think. Yeah. It's a little story time to start. So we're at Apex out in Arizona in Mesa. By the way, before you get into it, for people who don't know, just briefly explain what Project Evo is. Project Evo is a 1993 based crazy maniac machine that we built. Jeff Sourd actually drove it at Pike's Peak. We put it in some street livery now, and we're still continuing to test and gather data with it. So we're at the track. It's a paddle shifted 3.8 liter air cooled engine. So sequential gearbox, still air cooled. Twin turbo. Yeah. Twin big old set of Garrett's on it. And it's, I mean, it makes every bit of 840 horsepower. What is it? What is it way? 2600. I'll just say 2600. 800 horsepower. Have you been in it? 2600 pounds. No. It's scary fast. Oh, you haven't. No, that was not that. That was when it was on the 700 tune. That was 635. 635. Yeah. Yeah. And that's even scary. Yeah, because the turbos are still asleep. Waste gates are just doing everything they can to keep boost down. But I was running at 1.2 bar, which is 740 all day. And that's, I think, a sweet spot. It's just the entire time. Anything below third gear is you're just looking for grip. And TC is just. You could literally hear the trash control crying. Like you could hear the clicking in the box. No, no, no, no. It's our smoking. Yeah. No, I said I did a good job on TC. So it's manageable, but it's just, you know, standard's got a running joke now that every, he's like, man, the data shows there's like, it can make a whole shitload more power. Everything's just fine. And every time he asks the driver, do you want more power? They're like, I don't think so. No, it's okay. It's okay. Normally drivers like it could always use more. And then finally, Sandra went out and drove it. He goes, I get it now. Okay. Nope. Doesn't need more power. And even if you could get it to hook up because traction controls are so sophisticated now, that amount of power to wait means once you're in fourth, fifth gear on track, like you are fucking hauling. Yeah. Fourth and fifth TC is back off and you're just getting all of the power. Yeah. That's a tremendous amount of speed. Yeah. It's been a brutal winner for most of the country. Fortunately for me, I live in California. It hit 80 the other day. Perfect timing to bust out my new Viper industrial fan. That's right. They make great stools, amazing creepers and fantastic tool carts, but they also make really, really good fans. Assembly was simple. It comes with legs or can be wall mounted. It moves an incredible amount of air. It's got a variable speed control. So you can dial in the perfect RPM for your fan. If that's something you so desire. If you're looking for a soothing therapeutic white noise machine for the garage, try out the natural wind function. Anyway, go get yourself one at Viperindustrial.com. That's Viper with a Y. Be honest, we all do it. 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If you haven't heard of them, they make premium tools that are highly over-engineered. Hardly surprising, they're German. But it's not just the quality and the engineering, it's the evolution. I mean, these guys actually reinvented the wrench. We connected after they saw me working on my Audi with their tools. And I'm stoked to welcome them as the newest partner on the pod. Once again, I only work with brands whose stuff I actually use. So check them out, WearerTools.com. And I apologize now because you're likely going to empty your bank account there. Yeah. So anyway, back to the regularly programmed off 140 miles an hour backwards at thermal. Fourth, no, we're at Apex. And there's this big right-hander complex that goes in. It's actually kind of cool. It tightens up at Apex and then it opens up into a brake zone. So you can actually get through there, blow the car down a little bit, and then get back to throttle. Ideally, your fifth gear, you get it moved down at the fourth, and then you start squeezing throttle right off Apex. If the track wasn't there, you'd be smoked. But yeah, anyways, I went into a had a good run out of two or three and into fifth gear, deep into fifth gear. I'm like, should I pull sixth? I'm like, nah, I started to turn in. I'm like, what? In my head, right when I started to turn, I was like, why do I think I can go through this corner like that? There was like literally, there was just like, that was it. And then Sanders like, yeah, you went off track. I tried to, you know, you're kind of along for the ride there, but I did feel the car go backwards and then does the Porsche Laundard thing. I kind of went left hand down to get it to keep going. And I was in the dirt, couldn't see anything, still spinning. I was like, man, this has taken a long time to slow down. I was like, it felt like I was at the edge of like going over, you know, but then. It's always scary. Yeah. And then so got a low down. And then by the time the dirt settled, I could finally get it back into neutral reverse. I'm looking around, I don't even know where the track is. So far off the track, the tracks up a little higher. I was like, okay, that's the barrier. I'm looking around and I'm like looking for somebody to drive. So like get a point of reference. And finally I saw this car go by. I'm like, okay, I got to go back over that way. And you were going so fast that the, that the arrow popped the, Oh yeah. So when I went back, did it blow the rear window out? When I went backwards, it ripped the deck lid, the engine lid open. And then that slammed into the rear glass and broke it out and then D lamb the rear deck lid. So I was like, uh, I thought they, everybody thought I hit the wall. I'm like, no, I never hit the wall, but they're like the whole back. You hit a wall of air. I hit, yeah. That was, yeah. Yeah. But anyways, is that your fastest off? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By a pretty significant margin. Yeah. Did you tell the wife about it? I undersold it a little. Okay. Cool. Yeah. She doesn't listen to this podcast. No, she's not going to listen to your podcast. So I shouldn't clip this and put this on Instagram. Leave this part out. Probably we could leave that. Okay. Yeah. So I look, I want to get into everyone's background here because you started with Mustangs, right? Yeah. Early on, early on, uh, when I was 14, like Fox body Mustang, uh, the early stuff, early stuff. Yeah. 67. And then all I wanted to do is drag race and street race. And, and then when I was in my early teens or late teens, I got a job at a car dealership that was, that had a lot of Porsches there. And I just started building up this like this affinity for nine 11s. And then, you know, then I got to drive a nine 30 turbo once and I was just blown. That was the, that was game over. I'm pretty sure Vinny and I stories exactly the same, which is that we belong to the cult of Volkswagen and Volkswagen told you that first you'll own a VW and then you'll own an Audi and then you'll own a Porsche. Good. Like that was just like the, yeah, that was every ownership. The kids progression, but I will say back in the day, I never drove a nine 11. Actually, I don't even remember. I think my first nine 11 I drove was my friend had a nine six four and I didn't like it at all. He had a nine six four C four that had like 120,000 miles on it. Nothing special, mostly stock. And you're kind of like, man, not really that great of a car. It was cool to look at, but I was like, I never really cared that much about it. I always liked the water cooled cars from afar. I just thought they sounded cool. They look cool or whatever, but never had any experience driving them. So I didn't really fall in love with nine 11s until I got to drive some. Yeah. Like some really nice set up ones. Yeah. That I don't blame you when I first drove a nine six four and a nine three, I was like, I don't know. I don't know. And then I got to drive a Boxster, like a nine eight six Boxer based model. And I was like, this is so much fun. Yeah. And then actually was a lot of fun. So like the progression you guys are talking about, I had a mark three GTI with a VR six in it. Oh, no way. How did we just find this out today? I knew. I knew. Yeah. And I loved, loved, loved that car. And then trying to convince them to build another one for Tref punks this year. Yeah. And then found a black, who's found a 98 black one, 4500 bucks. Stay focused. Okay. Yeah. And then I had a nine forty four, bought a nine forty four for 800 bucks when I was like 18, 19 so I can go SCC racing with it. And I love the nine forty four. That's a slap on car except the engines break. Yeah. You can finish my wife's if you'd like to. We'll talk about that. She doesn't listen to this body either. I want to finish it and just surprise her with it. Yeah. I mean, I love those cars. They're good cars. Vinny's like, I can't believe you're asking your friend to do that. I love watching both of you guys anytime you suggest something. Vinny's like, I've got news for you, Brian. That ain't going to work. You think we hate each other. We're just talking about it's like. We actually, you know, it's like the old expression of like, you know, you go any direction too far. Like you go far enough left, you want guns again. Yeah. Right. It's like Vinny and I love each other so much. I think we hate each other. It's like you guys are, it depends on where the pendulum swinging at that time. Between your guys's relationship. I think my thing with Brian is I just default to arguing with him so much so that sometimes I agree, but I find myself arguing. I'm not going to give it to him. Yeah. Because both of us combat is our love language. Like literally like, like fighting, arguing, conflict is what makes me feel loved and it's how I show love. If I'm not disagreeing with you, I probably don't like you. I love it. Anyway, 944 is good cars, huh? Awesome. Great cars. So, but for me, I had never, I had never driven an I11 when I was younger. And then I became a journalist. I got to drive the water cooled ones. And I think it was like the first, I drove so many cars. Like that's one really interesting thing about being a journalist is you get to drive a little bit of everything. So, and most people don't get to do that in their lives, right? Like they met, you know, they may own this, they may own that. You've obviously owned a ton of stuff, but you, this is cool thing to be like, hey, I drove a Vantage this week and then the next week I drove a Ferrari and then the week after that I drove a Lamborghini and then I drove a 911 and the 911 just felt different and not as special. Like to me, 911 is a sports car. It doesn't matter if it's a GT3 RS, it's a sports car. No, like the only new ones feel like they're super cars. But before that, the 911 was King sports car. It's just King sports car. It is like the quintessential sports car. But, and I just, I loved how they drove. I loved how they drove on track. And then I got to drive an RS America, just went into a test drive. It's funny I mentioned Aston because I drove an Aston Martin Vantage V8 to go test drive in old RS America. So one, the Vantage was way faster. Like just everything about it was nicer. But like just going around a couple of corners, I wasn't pushing it too hard because it was a test drive for a car I wanted to buy. And by the way, the car was $20,000. 2009. $20,000 RS America. And it had a supercharger kit on it. Insane. Yeah, which actually made it feel like slightly heavy. It wasn't as fast as a turbo. Yeah. But there was just this thing about the turn in it and the, especially on the air cooled, I think like the glass house is something no one really talks about. Right. Or maybe it is. Like maybe I'm not enough in the Porsche circles, but like nothing feels better than that cockpit. And that was just it. Like I got into all these other cars. I drove all these other cars and all of them were either, you know, could have been better in straight line performance, could have been better in cornering, but there was something about how it felt to sit in the 911 and how it all looked. And they've kept that throughout all the generations. I made a video where we did like base 997 all the way up to GT3 RS and like how they all compare and stuff. And the thing I said when I drove Alex's C2S was you get in a 911 and it feels incredibly unique. Like you look out the steering wheel, the dash is the perfect small size. And then you see just the tops of the two fenders and like the leading edge of the headlight and it's such a unique 911 only feeling. And they did a great job at like keeping the cabin small as the cars got even a little bigger, like they feel really intimate. So I think driving a 911 feels like majorly special just from like a ergonomics standpoint. I agree completely. You, no matter what 911 you get into, whether it is an RSA or even a new GT3 RS, you know, you're driving a 911. Yeah. Granted, there's very different. But you know that I'm in a 911. Well, that's the thing I always found interesting because like I love 997. It's like my favorite car in the world. I boast about this constantly. On paper, most 911s like they're not that special. Like when you're like, oh, it's 3,100 pounds. It makes 400 horsepower. It's a six speed. Like it all sounds fine, but a lot of cars fit those stats. But then you drive a well set up one and you're like, I can't quantify what it is, but it's the best car ever. Yeah, I told everyone I was like, drive a 997 GT3 and tell me there's a better car. Right. Like I can't find one. I mean, I, I think you know, you're like, Jeff Swart agrees that the GT3 RS is one of the greatest, like 997 GT3 RS is one of the greatest cars. And by the numbers, it's not that impressive. But it just takes all of that and does it really, it does it really well. Like you said, nothing stands out from the stats. But when you bring it all together, Porsche did such a good job on extracting the most out of all those new, not nuances, but those, I would say, subtle, subtle stats. Yeah. So I've never driven newer than a 997, like at anger. Like I've driven like only get better, like a little bit more numb and like assisted. But they just get better. Like it's insane how good they are. Because I was a journalist when the 997 was out. So I've driven those on track and like that's just a car that just felt great. Like it was just, I mean, and I, the newer ones seem really big to me and I've driven them like around town or like been in them, but like they're big. They just seem big. But the 997 feels like it's like the right evolution from this, which is. Well, I'll add my two cents of a normal guy and then but Tim could talk as an expert in like a race car driver, but 997 drives like an old air cooled car in that it's hard to drive on track. I had to ask Jeff Swart like how to drive this frigging thing. Cause it's so difficult. You have to drive it like a 9-11, lots heavy on the brakes, lots of trail braking, like patients on the throttle, very stabby when you're ready for it. Like it's a certain way. Whereas the 991 and then the 992 RS is, holy shit. Like they're just so much easier to be incredibly fast in. And I'm sure the threshold is higher than my driving ability, but like a 992 RS, I don't even know if it drives like a rear engine car. It just feels like you do whatever the fuck you want. A hundred percent as a company that company has to evolve, has to show you lap times, have to show evolution of performance, right? Across the technologies that they're applying to the car. It sucked to build something and then also then slower, right? Right. Yeah. And so they can't. But when they do that, they have to take all of our skill sets, everybody's and they gotta say, well, how do we make everybody quick? You're not a pro driver. I'm not a pro driver. You know, maybe that guy is. So you start to get into this world of numbness. And I think there's a point where I don't give a shit about my lap time. I, unless you're competing, I care about the driving experience. Yeah. I don't, you know, like to your point, my favorite track driving car out of the box is a dot one GD three RS. It's not the dot two. The dot two is quite a bit better, but I don't know why I felt so connected in the dot one, 97.1. I could throw that thing around and just drive it like a complete extension of me. Maybe that's just a product of my time. My generation spending most time in 97. Cause that's like the gen when you were working at Porsche Motorsports. Right. Yeah. Well, we were, I was in the transitional period from nine, nine, six to nine, nine, seven there. Um, and then. You know, you, uh, next to a G body car that's well sorted. I don't think there's a more fun, fun 911 to drive. Right. In the nine, nine, seven, like to your point. But then you get into, I had a nine, nine, two, Crera S. I had a nine, nine, two, GD three and the GT three RS. The Crera S was so easy to, to crush lap times with. It was unreal. A bone stock, all as we did. It's a little bit of an alignment to it. Talk about a car no one talks about. We were out at Willow doing like sub, sub thirties, like one, 29s, 28s. It's really fast. All day long with my son's child seat in the back. And I just passed, I just had every, all my employees drove it and then just drove it home with smoke tires. That's incredible. And everything was perfect. Then my wife drove it to work, you know? So, but it was like, it was not me. I didn't have that like, oh, I'm in front of this thing. I'm, you know, that was like, it didn't reward you for a son at the wheel. Didn't reward you for rotating it on the way in and then getting back to apex on throttle how a nine, 11 takes a seat and does it. It rewarded you for hitting the brakes nice and smooth, turning in, looking at your apex. And as the car starts to unwind, you just squeeze the throttle a little bit and you cruise across and then, you know, you're, you're piecing together a lap like that. And that's, to me, great, awesome, well engineered. But I like my personal driving style. I like to work a wheel that like to throw a car in. I like to feel the edge. You know, it's kind of crazy. I just had this thought because it makes sense. Like you said that cars get almost too technologically advanced and you want feeling and OEMs are never going to go back to making cars that are more analog. Like we could only keep going forward. I think speed and, you know, horsepower and stuff eventually will plateau. Maybe, I don't know, but it's crazy that like the Evo project is what you want to do to get back at that. And the price you're going to have to pay to get an analog experience new now is going to be these independent, you know, what do you call it? Like coach builders who are making cars like the Evo or like Guntherworks, Singer, like these and I don't know, there's probably other ones outside. Portion World tiles. You like it? Yeah. But like you're going to have to pay such an exorbitant amount of money if you want that experience in a car that has new. Yeah. But I think it's really cool because we've reached this point where like new cars are so crazy. I mean, we were just talking about the Lamborghini. What the hell's a new one? Rivalto. Oh, yeah. And like it's so fast and it's got a V12 and it's hybrid. Is it running like low nines out of the box? Yeah, but like you feel nothing. Yeah, you drive this thing in anger and you're just like you feel nothing. So now guys like yourself who have the technical ability and the resources to do something are like, I'm going to take some action at this. I'm going to make a car for the people who want this like actual feeling of connectivity to a car with like not no expense spared, but like no compromises. Right. So exactly. And that's you take everything that you've loved about all of the car. Like like you're both of your points. Do you guys have that are very lucky that you've been able to drive a lot of different cars? I'm also very lucky. I've been able to drive. I mean, every every car we've ever built really in the last 19, 20 years of PBI, all our hillclimb cars, anything that rolled off the line. New, you know, I got to drive a new 997, new 99. Every time they were new, I got to be a part of this. So, you know, stacking all that in my head and is watching the driving experience go away and the velocities and speeds going up and the fun diagram of where we're fun and then diagram starts to spread. It does. And all of a sudden, all of a sudden they're getting pulled apart and you're like, fuck, how do we read? Don't mind, I'd say that. Sorry. You can say what the fuck. Okay. Um, how do we, how do we get back to creating experience, but still having something that's speed and engaging, right? So my yeah, I think like at the core of it, we all probably have the same criteria, which is like, I want a race car, but I want it to be street legal and kind of comfortable, like everyone wants the same. You have to flex duality. And that's one thing that technology does do though, is we, you have versatility, duality and variabilities. Right. I actually think one of the big problems that's going on right now in like the modern automaker world is speed is relative. When you're on the plane, you don't realize you're doing 550 miles an hour, right? Because you're, you're not, you're not experiencing it. This 911, which is a, you know, 1991, nine, six, four feels fast at 80. I mean, it'll do 150. I've done it, but like at 150, it's terrifying. Yeah, you don't want to do it. But my, you know, my old Audi A8L, I've also taken to 150. And Tony Harmer was sleeping in the passenger seat in it and didn't wake up. Like modern cars have actually removed so much of the noise, vibration and all of that, that you remove that sense of speed. So you actually have to increase the speed. So in order, so like you're actually adding speed, which is actually like arguably also adding danger to something just to feel what you were feeling. Right. It's like sex with or without a condom. Right. Like, you know, it's like, I don't know that that element of like you are, you're creating this barrier that you don't feel the speed. It's why carting feels so fast. I think you drove it, but you don't, I don't know if you did the new Lotus. Yeah. The Amira was. The Amira. The Amira was so bizarre because they made it fairly analog and that it had hydraulic steering and like a cable shifter that felt pretty good, but they deleted all the NVH out of it otherwise. So you had this car that had pretty good steering feel. Good shifter feel. I thought it had a great steering feel. It felt really good. The chassis was way too smooth. So you almost felt like you had these two like inputs that were like analog. And then the rest was like silk. And I found it to be very. It almost felt like a simulator. Yeah. It's good to say. It's good to get that. Yeah. Like some pieces of it felt right. Yeah. I was like, damn, you need like a couple of spherical joints and and like solid motor mounts to make this thing give you a little bit of grit. Like you need just a little grit. And add some delrin in here. Yeah. I want to lose a filling. Right. Yeah. Not that bad, but like certain cars like to be visceral need a little bit of like that. And it doesn't always have to equate to a lot of speed. You can create an experience. No. And that's what I think we've created is we've made cars actually so fast that I think it's going down. This is a whole other conversation, but I think cars have become so fast now that we're going to see speed cameras and stuff like this in America, because it used to be that the average person didn't break 100 miles an hour. Yeah. Now it's so easy. Now it's like everybody does, right? Because you can buy a Hellcat. You can buy all these things that just make phenomenal power. Yeah. So easy. But I mean, you could see it just to bring us back to 9-elevens and Porsche's is New ZR1 versus new GT3 RS. There we go. Yeah. Laptimes are, you know, all things considered pretty close, considering the ZR1 makes over two times the amount of horsepower. But the 9-eleven stayed true or truer to its roots and was like, we're going to optimize everything at 500 horsepower. And that's why I still like the 9-9-2 GT3 RS, because it's like you still get a 9000 RPM, four liter, you know, flat six. Whereas I drove the ZR1 and it's a blast, but it's honestly too fast. Yeah. Like no one needs that much power. Like on the racetrack, I've driven. Didn't you say it actually made you nauseous? I'm going to say I've driven countless cars on track. I've driven race cars. I've driven production cars. The ZR1 made me want to throw up. While driving, not in the passenger seat. No, driving. Oh, dude. Going at Coda on the back straight, 182 miles an hour to 60, back up to 120 in four seconds. You know, you're just on those carbon ceramics super hard and you're like so many G's breaking and then tons of lateral G's turning. And then the torque out of the corner, because there's a pretty fast straight section after that is like, you're just, dude, it's insane. And I was like, this is factory. It's a bone stock out of the box. Had a three point seatbelt on. Yeah. She's going 180 lap after lap after lap, which is like something I think about now that I'm older, like the amount of ridiculous shit I did in press cars on track with like no helmet and a seatbelt because they were like, oh, you don't have to wear a helmet. They made for helmets. I drove the new M5 in whatever, 2008, 2009 at Road America, like flat out. Flat out, like no helmet going into that, like down, like the downhill section. At one point I was like, this doesn't end well if it ends. Yeah, that's going to be that no matter what. But it's just like normal. Like, yeah, you sign the paperwork. Okay. I want to rewind this though, because I'm going to get back to our original point and discuss that. So all of us at some point, we either liked Porsches or as an early age, it was something that we were, we were bred into or whatever it is. And now we are at like this really kind of crazy peak, like Horsham moment. Right. And the other day, this is, I think one of the things that kind of initiated this conversation is that James Pumphrey was like, he made the announcement that 9-Elevens are officially no longer cool or something like that. Right. And my, my argument was that James, like there's a lot of different types of car people. Everyone likes cars for different reasons. And James is definitely more of the cars are an accessory to your personality. Right. Like you get a car. They're fashion out. It's a fashion element and you enjoy other pieces of it, of course. But if you like, if you just like a car to be an accessory, yeah, 9-Elevens are sort of played because it's like for this, for 80,000 bucks to buy a G body to, you know, to look cool, like you could buy a E28 5 series. You could buy a 190 E. You could buy a 500 E. You can buy countless other really cool vintage cars to look interesting. But once you get into the driving dynamics, saying it's not cool is blasphemy. Like that's insane. It's pretty wild. Well, this is like, we had this conversation the other day because I jumped on one of Vinny's episodes to talk about the Ferrari 360. And I said the difference between the two is that the 9-Eleven is a driver's car and the Ferrari is an enthusiast car because like the 9-Eleven, like you really have to enjoy driving a car to love like it's what makes you really love it. We're like the Ferrari just makes all the right noises and the right smells. You want to hear the worst to the 360. Yeah. So I try to like categorize cars that I want for like, I think cars need their purpose and I don't want to like double down on cars because I don't have enough space or mental capacity and like I feel personally attacked. I know, but I was right at you. So like 997 GT3 is like Canyon car or like track car. Ferrari 360 cars and coffee car because going to cars and coffee around an L.A. means you're driving on some boring ass straight highway and then you're going to sit at a million red lights and then you're just going to show up somewhere in the park, Ferrari 360 car. Super comfortable. It's super easy to drive. It's like it's great. People think it's cool. Whereas like you go to the mountains or you go to the track. I want to take the Porsche 100 percent. Like I think it's a way different car. You know, whereas like I don't think 9-Eleven's are that impressive to show up to cars and coffee and stuff like you're not like who in and on over them. But. I think that when you're going for the driving experience, 9-Eleven's way more fun than the 360. You not agree, even like 964 to 100 percent. Yeah. Like the 964 is just such a more fun car to drive. I mean, also like mine's manual and like I think it I actually like the noises that the 9-Eleven makes more than my Ferrari personally. But I know that the noises of the Ferrari make are more exotic. Yeah. Does that make sense? It's like more unique in a way. Yeah. Like it's also something I never had ever seen myself driving. Same. So like a lot of times I'll be listening to the 360. I'm like, I'm making the car is making that noise. I know the feel. Well, you know, but Tim built the exhaust on my 9-Eleven. So it sounds like a fucking race car. Like it's just obnoxious. Like you need to match the look. Yeah, it has to look match the look. And it's like so it's a different kind of sound. It's more of a like it's a real fucking pissed off noise. That's actually one of my slight tangent. But back onto Porsche is one of my biggest gripes with RWBs is like I love this generation RWB, not really a fan of a lot of the new stuff. You build a car that looks like this. It's got to have some bite. But like you see people build in a car that's like seven inches wider than this. And it has like scoops on the bolt on rear fenders and like a huge wing. And then you're like, oh, what is it? Like, oh, it's a three liter SC. You're like, oh, so that makes 142 wheel horsepower. Yeah. Like, but you have a 18 by 45 inch rear wheel with a 400 inch tread. You look like you built like an endurance car out of it, out of a war movie. It's like, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And that was, I mean, my for me and for, I would say, I would say a lot of other shops out there that have some racing background breaks your heart when you see that. Well, the whole point of a bigger wheel going from like 16s to 18s, put more break under it, the whole point of a wider wheel is to fit more tire on it. So you got to cover it with some fenders so you can go quicker. So you have, you know, better contact patch and so on. So you got to fix the geometry. But when you're just shitting all over your scrub radius in the front, and you got, you got no, no, no stank out back. It's, it's kind of, it's a hard pill to swallow. So then, then you're moving, you're moving. So there's kind of a good point. You're moving from the driver to the enthusiast, which is nothing wrong with everybody. Look, I like all forms of the world. It just depends on what you think is cool. So you guys were saying earlier, what? Well, I think, I think I want to get back to this point. I think we just, we're such Porsche files. We immediately just jumped in to just slob in the Porsche knob. Just talking about how fucking great they are. But like, I'm also like, I don't consider myself a Porsche guy. Are you a Porsche, you're like, you might be a Porsche guy. I would say that I'm, I'm a fucking loser for sure. So like, I, dude, like I'm on like, Rand List. I'm on the forums. Yeah. He's more of a Porsche guy than I am. I like, I like, yeah, I'm a fucking Porsche guy for sure. Because I, I would see my favorite, my favorite car I own is a Porsche. If I had to sell all my cars, but one, even though it would be the least, make the least practical sense, I would keep my 911. My 911 is like, it's just the most important car I own to me. Yeah. I should drive it more. That's a whole other conversation. But I really love this car. Like, and I've known it, you know, forever now, right? Yeah. I've had it for a decade plus and shit, even more than that. And I just, I absolutely love the car. I love driving it. But like, I don't, I don't know, like I, I don't know if I would buy another 911 or buy a 997, but like, I'm not like here to collect a ton of them. Like one of them works really well for me. Like where I think like a lot of people now are like, oh, I'm collecting 911. So like that isn't, must be nice. Yeah. I shop cars a lot because like it's my autism. I love looking for cars, especially now that I could buy and sell cars more. Always looking at 911. 911 is my most searched car because I will buy like I want a fucking cool air cooled 964. I want a 996 turbo. I want another 997 GT3 RS. I want a 991 RS. I want a fucking 997 turbo. I want a, you know, 993 turbo. Like they're all so fucking cool. Like there's so many of them are sick. It might be because of when I got into, but when I was searching them, like a 964 was a 10 to $15,000 car. Right. It was a turbo. A 993 was a $40,000 car. Like those all, like now when I look at them, the price is so crazy. That I couldn't bring myself to like buy it. Yeah. I guess for me though, because we're so different, like you buy a car and you spend $100,000, you're never getting that $100,000 back because you're keeping the car forever. Right. For me, I'm like, I'll buy a 993, whatever, because I'll drive it for six months and I'll sell it and like it all comes back. They're all worth what they're worth now. It's not like you're going to buy a 993 for, you know, 75 grand and then three months from now it's worth like 40. Right. You know, like they're just worth it with their worth. So, but still fundamentally a 964 to me is still a $25,000, $30,000 car. Totally. You know what I mean? No, well, Vinny had this great line about E36s and he said an E36 is like a $6,000 experience. That was Matt Farah, but I supported a hundred percent. Oh, Matt Farah. Okay. Yeah. I always thought it was yours, but whatever. Me too. Maybe I said it and Matt stole it. Yeah. Whatever it is. But I think that that is a very true moment where it's like E36M3s could be worth 25 grand, but it's a six to $7,000 experience. I would say this car to me is a $50,000 experience. No, I've never driven this car. Maybe you've driven it. Oh, yeah. I love it. Okay. Maybe it's a $75,000 experience. No, I would say in current market, like not in current market, no, no, no, but just like in general, what else you could get? What else are you going to get for the same experience? It's a six figure experience. It's fast. It's fun. It's raw. Sounds cool. Is it a $300,000 experience? But I don't know what is. I had the same problem. I mean, that's why you sold your GT3 RS. Because I don't know what to me, a $300,000 experience is like an exotic car. It's a hyper car. Right. You know, like some people were like, oh, like you're so dumb, you sold your cars. Whether it's 300K or $3 million, I feel like it's the same shit. It's like such an exorbitant amount of money for an experience. So I feel the same way, but I just am more privy to the current car market. No, I get that because like I'm kind of stuck in like where I spent money for it. Yeah. And I think you and I have talked about this before, but it the car, the experience that the car gives me is less. The more the car is worth. Totally. One, because you just in your head that this is worth a crazy amount of money, but also the maintenance or if something was to happen to it, the replacement cost. Yeah. And it's all it's all like that. I think is super subjective. It's like, that's your tax bracket. Because like there are guys and we're girls who are going to buy an Evo for, I don't even know how much it costs. You could say it. Many monies, many monies, all the monies and won't think twice about it. And we'll park it next to other cars that are millions of dollars. Yeah. So like one of my friends just texted me, he just bought a Crera GT and he's like literally ripping it around on the street, drifting it everywhere. He just put like 400 miles on it yesterday. Like doesn't care, right? But like he might be a lot more well off than we are. To be worried about it. You drove the Crera GT, right? What'd you think of it? Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, it really surely is. It's awesome. I don't like the clutch situation, but it's awesome. Yeah. For me, it's interesting because I don't look at this car as an investment. I always say like I don't plan on selling it. So the raised value is actually just more of a nuisance. It just makes me worry about it more. And like, I don't want to be one of those people who was like, and I'm mad at all the people who made Porsche's cool for making them ridiculously expensive. But I do think that they are cost more than the experience is worth. Like we've reached that point where they are more valuable than what the experience you got. So I'll counter argue that, though, because I think like you drive, we talked about like a stock 964, like, you know, you drive a 80 SC bone stock. I think it's horrifically boring. Like I can't stand them. But if you're buying that car for a piece of the lifestyle, entrance into the community, the way it looks, whatever, whatever, whatever. Is it not worth it? Do you really think I want to go back to your initial statement here? Do you really think a stock 911 is boring? Or I know. I still like it. I mean, I've driven like stock C2 997 at the C2. Oh, but I drove. I drove Alex's stock. It was still really fun. Like 997 was great. I'm talking like air cooled stuff. I think needs some spice. I think it needs some spice. Yeah, the older ones are a bit slow. Yeah, but not only that, the suspension is numb. It's very like they have them right US ride heights and it's there. There's so much you can do for so little to improve that experience. Just an initial turn in and the way the car feels just. They immediately need coilovers and probably sway bars back then. And then then you start to have something fun. But yeah, I mean, you're talking like sevens and eights and inch wide wheels on the, you know, it's my SC. I kept it bone stock motor had 400,000 miles on it. We I brought it to BBI. We did all the elephant racing stuff. Yep. We did KW coilovers, some bigger brakes, bigger 16 inch wheels with I think 205 and two 15s or something like that. And did like a sick corner balance and stuff. That car ripped. It was so much fun. The transmission in that car kind of sucked, but. But it was it was a blast. And they probably made 150 wheel horses. Yeah, my my SC is one of my favorite cars to drive in the engine stock. Yeah. And it's I mean, the cars, they're just fun because it's small. You can get in, you can get that engagement feeling without going too crazy, you know, and it's just so you feel a lot more planted and connect like your asses as high from this. Yeah. Yeah. And like segueing into, I don't work it, we got to get into this a little bit, but. The relative comment are Porsche is still cool. I mean, I I personally think that after the cars started getting PDKs, I think that in that brought the accessibility of a 911 up to a point where no, interesting, where, you know, people who had Audi, our eights, BMW M threes, M fives, it allowed an accessibility to what was called the widowmaker or, you know, like the ass happy H pattern, harder to extract that lap time out of a car because like, you know, to and I think that drove and I I saw my business, I saw in the clientele that we were getting, I saw it in other shops, popping out of nowhere that used to work on all the other cars. And then their buddy went and bought a 991 GD three rear steer PDK, a big, big car on 21 inch wheels. You know, so all of a sudden this car became accessible to you can go to the track and still be a hero out there. Whereas you take your RS and you actually have to huff that thing to get a lap time out of it. Right. And not a lot of people like that. First day I had this, I spun it at 100 miles an hour on Woodhaven Boulevard in Queens and almost killed me in rock because you probably sent it like I thought it was a normal car. I sent and I was a journalist at the time. I had driven a bunch of stuff. I'd driven 997s, I'd driven 996s, but this was still widowmaker level and the car spun in a straight line. You're probably hit a bump under boost. Exactly. And I, and I lifted off and the weight transfer and the thing came around and I was going backwards through an intersection. I was, I may or may not have also been on like, like blue pilot sports that were like, that had been, um, that had been shaved and were like track tires. I took off my friend's dad's car that hadn't been on a car in 10 years. That may have had a lot of it. But like everything I could do to get the car straight wasn't happening. And it was wildly out of control. And it made me both fear the car and also love the car. But I do a lot of research before I do stuff. And when I was going to take my 997 to the track, it was the first time I ever had tracked a Porsche, I think, but definitely a 997. I remember I hit up a Tim or like pointers because people online made it sound like this car was going to be deadly. Yeah. Whereas the newer cars, I think, like Tim said, you're a little like you've removed that barrier. And I always kind of find it funny when you have, um, McLaren's at your shop. Because I'm like, what the hell is this doing here? And then I kind of realized that 991, 992 GT buyers are probably cross shopping those and like 670 LT's and shit. Like it's the same person at this point. It is. And that's, yeah. And, you know, even down to how people mod their cars between post 997 into 99192, the cars have just gotten so quick and the drivers haven't been able to keep up with that. And, you know, what I mean is they haven't been able to extract what just the factory is going to give you where they can come back and give constructive feedback. Like, well, look, I, you know, I've got, I've got some mid corner exit oversteer, you know, normally like a 997, we're like, all right, cool. We'll do the diff. We'll do the suspension. 95% of Porsche owners couldn't actually define what mid exit corner oversteer is. Like, I think like that's part of like mid corner exit oversteer. I think that's actually part of the issue too. Well, I mean, that probably is. And then so, you know, I also wanted to ask your guys' opinion, when did you think there were, was there some catalyst in going and buying a 911 to join the buddy club or, you know, like the separation from enthusiasts and driver where you saw the enthusiast crowd growing a lot more than the driver's car. Oh, I can tell you because I was there when it happened. So I bought my 911 because I want, I always wanted one. I never thought I'd own more than a 944. Like, so my heart was set on a 944. The prices then sort of tumbled on the 911 market. I was looking at 355s because they had hit like 40 to 50 grand and I was like, wow, that's really cool. And then I stumbled on 911. I was like, I cannot believe this is this cheap. Like you're talking 10 to 20 grand. This is crazy. I'm going to go buy a 911 right now. This is such a, you know, it's such a great car. And when I bought that, you know, I bought this thing for whatever, 30 and change, which was expensive at the time. It felt like, but none of my friends had 911s. No one thought they were cool. The joke always is, why didn't you buy an Evo? Like those were way, those were way cooler. So like, and when I bought mine, there wasn't a community of 911 guys that like I wanted to be a part of. It was like PCA, like going to Lime Rock, going to Autocross, and they would have been annoyed with me for whatever, because I had the 4.0 wing on the car and shouldn't have for whatever it was. Right. So, um, and then all of a sudden, I think you had like this perfect storm of three things that happened at once. Here we are with another story time interruption brought to you by my good friends at FCP Euro. Look, if you are a frequent listener, a very vehicular, you know, that I have been threatening to call the herd cell cars. That's what I've been threatening to do. A couple of days ago, I decided, you know what, I'm going to make the first step. And the first step is posting a feeler post. See who's interested. And to my dismay, a lot of people were interested. The car in question is my 1991 Audi 200 Avant 20 valve turbo. The problem is it just doesn't fit what I want right now. I got a couple of other wagons. I think I want to swap this out for something else. So I figured put it up on the chopping block over the weekend. I decided it was time to clean it up, take those photos, try to actually move it and sell it. Unfortunately, I fell back in love. How could I possibly get rid of it? So I deleted the post and immediately went to FCP Euro.com and just started filling the cart with a bunch of things. Because see, for me, if I have a lot of parts to finish a car, it makes it a lot harder to sell, right? I mean, this, this makes sense. So I started getting all the basics. And the first thing is suspension bushings. This immediately makes a car better. It had a squeaky belt. I replaced that. I needed a clutch master, pick that up and a few other things. And of course, a whole bevy of liquid moly fluids, you know, because it makes the car feel happier. So anyway, I did all that. And I guess the car is not for sale anymore. If you too are looking for an excuse not to sell a car, head over to FCP Euro.com, invest in some more parts and get that project of yours back on the road and off of the classified posts. Keep it off of marketplace guys. Stop selling cars unless you're selling them to me. And then all of a sudden, I think you had like this perfect storm of three things that happened at once. Magnus Walker, Nikai San, RWB and Singer. There you go. I agree. These three things came out at the same time. Like I remember when Singer came out. I was at the magazine still and we were just blown away that anyone would put that much effort into an air cooled car. Right. And they let alone a nine six four. Yeah. And it was, yeah, right. Cause the nine six. That was like the black sheep. Right. The black sheep. It was the perfect car for a project like that. If you could rub a magic ball and look down stream a little bit. Yeah. It wasn't the nine nine three, which was the last of the air cooled and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the G body. It lived in a weird world. It wasn't a long nose, right? Like no one seemed to care about them. And then they built this car that, especially the first one I thought was, was beautiful and there was just a bunch of really cool stuff and the press went crazy for it. And now all of a sudden you had magazines, which still matter at the time. Waxing poetic about nine eleven air cooled again. Nobody had been talked about them for a while because we had already, we were well into the nine nine seven at this point. Like the nine nine six was there. We had the nine nine seven Porsche. And my opinion was losing all of its steam. You had this error where it's like they cared more about the Cayenne and the Panamera than they did about their sports cars. That was obviously what, you know, I know the economics of it. I know those saved the company, so on and so on. That's what birth the four GT. Of course. Sorry, the courage. Courage. Right. Like all of these things, like all that stuff came out. Totally understand the value of it, but the brand was losing kind of the concept. And I don't want to change it too much. I think this is a really. I think I think it was that. And then the the final fucking boss of Porsche coolness, Lufthulke. No, but but let me get on the first three because I was there. So the first one really was Singer and that got magazines to be talking about it. Now air cools like back in front of people again. Right. Then you have Magnus Walker, who just it was like a completely different approach. He changed the optics. Yes, absolutely. Changed a stigma of, you know, here you are, Dredi and. And also like it was also like a Volkswagen aesthetic applied to 9 11. It's like mismatched panels, like, you know, just this aesthetic that didn't mean lights in the back, fuchs in the front. You're right. And it wasn't the dentist 9 11. Like that was what 9 11's were. They were like, I mean, they were so uncool. They were tragically unhipped so tragically unhipped that Porsche would not give zero to 60 magazine and 9 11 for a test drive because they told us that our audience couldn't afford them. So I wrote them this letter and I wrote them this letter and I basically to Porsche America and I said, look, they said, oh, you can drive a Boxster. You can drive a Cayman, you know, and I said, no, no, no, we want to drive the new 9 11, like the 9 97. Like that's what we want to go drive right now. They're like, no, you know, that just it's just not where your audience is. I was like, look, I want a 9 11. I will one day own a 9 11 because as a kid, that was a car that was important to me. My cousin, who is more than 10 years younger than me wants a GTR because he grew up playing Gran Turismo and no one played with the roof cars. Like you guys have forgotten your audience. You have forgotten. I wouldn't even license the Porsche in the early. Great. I had the crazy. And then you could use and they wouldn't let us Jalopnik, Autoblog, like all of the young media was prohibited from driving. But look at the generations now. We wore those kids playing with the roof, you know, but they were, they were this close to, I think, never, I think to the 9 11 falling away. I think they were this close. And they, it was none of their own decisions that saved Porsche in the element of it being cool, because in my, in my feelings, from just like the culture of Porsche singer, one brought a premium audience in a big money spender. Super car got the journalist. Yeah. And started comparing it to Ferraris. Yeah. Right. Cause shit, man, we were doing 9 11 versus GTR 9 11 versus 3 70 Z comparison. Cause that's where the car had fallen to in terms of what people were expecting out of it. Right. And then Magnus kind of makes this whatever cool thing. And then I don't care what you think about RWB, if you weren't there in 2009, when that first started showing up on auto, a taco and everything. Nikai made 9 11 school to a, to a market of people who would have never even considered me for sure. I, I, the JDM market, the super street kids, they all of a sudden thought these were cool and added like a cool style to it. And I think that made the air cooled cars. Boom. And then that obviously spun off all these other things and we've done their works and everyone else who went on and a bunch of cool people bought the cars and that continued to kind of expand it and grow it. And there's more and more people talking about it. And you can talk about the negatives and bad of that. And then I feel like one day Porsche woke up and they caught on. And now all of a sudden they understand spec, they understand making a bunch of cool variants, they understand things like the 9 11 are like they got in and they were like, Oh, we get it. These people want these cars to be special. They want to make, but it wasn't until the aftermarket and individuals went out and ironed that all out for them. It wasn't until the enthusiasts said, Hey, we're going to build a culture around this, maybe not, maybe unwillingly or not knowing that that's what's going to happen, but it showed, you know, three really passionate groups getting after something that they loved, you know, from an artistic standpoint, from an expression standpoint, you know, Magnus from a, you know, personality standpoint. Yeah. And it blended a bunch of worlds. It was a very, it was a great. But also during that time, I'm going to let my Porsche nerd show here. And I'm pretty embarrassed, but, but during that time, well, one economic downturn was pretty rough. Yeah. 2008 recession. Yeah. But if you look at like 996 GT3 GT2 production numbers, this is early thousand, the 996 GT3 in the US started in 0304. And then, you know, went through 997 in 2010, like, Dude, you're talking about, they made less than a thousand for the US market. So they weren't look like worldwide production numbers on 996 GT3 was like 1300 cars on 997.1. It's like 1500.2. It's like 1500 or less. Like, so you're talking about like, think about how little they were putting into their top level cars. So you're like, we're making this halo car. We're going to sell a thousand to the world. That's like nothing. Right. So they, I don't think. So to your point, I don't think they were really looking at it as like, oh, there's a big market for this stuff. They're like, we need to go racing. We make this fucking GT car like. I also think some people might want. I also think that this is a very American conversation because Porsche was still on a pedestal in Europe. It just they lost it here. I think there was still very much a pedestal for Porsche over there. I can't speak as much for other countries, but I was paying attention when it was happening there. Like I do think that here they just lost sort of what made them cool. Right. And it wasn't that the cars weren't good. I mean, I, I, everyone has their feeling about the 996, but like the 996 is a fantastic driving car compared to a 993. It is a huge advancement on that. I mean, you look, I think the stat is like the stock 996 was faster than the 993 turbo or something. Right. I mean, like that's a huge advancement. Yeah. It was a really good car, but they sort of like think just missed with the audience wanted when, when that came out. You know what I think happened to Porsche with all the, the crazy hype around like Lufthulcalt and RWB and Singer and all the stuff and like kind of like top of funnel awareness of 9-11s is I think the Ferrari effect happened. And it's that Porsche used to be looked at a brand that is for enthusiasts and people who care about cars and the driving and all that. Then it became super popular to where it was more of a status symbol thing. It was more of like a, like you're buying this thing because it's expensive and sought after. So to me, like I used to look at Ferrari people as like, you just have money and you wanted a cool car. So you bought a Ferrari, but like, you don't fucking care. You're not into cars. You don't work on them. You're not like living it. Right. And now 9-11s weren't that. But then like now I know a bunch of guys who have 9-11s that don't own a tool set. Yeah. They don't, they don't think about cars. They just were like, I have money. I want something. If you asked what their tire pressure is, they'd say, I don't know, but that the, you know, the TPM, the ES sensor doesn't say it's not cool. What are my out lab pressure is going to be at? Yeah. Like no, they don't, they don't know anything about cars. They just know that they wanted a 9-11 and they got one. And that I think was kind of that tipping point of like, oh, maybe they're not cool anymore. Because it's like once, you know, everyone had their favorite band as a kid who then made it onto the radio and then you were like, ew, I'm not listening to them anymore. But isn't that kind of the thing? But this is exactly right. This is where I would have been in the conversation though, because skinny jeans were cool and then they weren't cool. Functionally, they were just pants that fit a little snug. Nine 11s could still not be cool and still be an amazing car. Do you know what I'm saying? Like people who want them would prefer they weren't cool. But do you know what I'm saying? Like I think that this is subjective. That there's like a fashion element. There's like fashion and function that like drives trend. And right now, nine 11s, nine right now, the past 10 plus years, nine 11s have been like just the top of hype. I mean, the amount of people I know who own nine 11s just because they're cool. They're nine 11s and music videos. There's not, you know, air cooled nine 11s in fashion ads and all of these things. But to me, that doesn't make a nine 11 any less cool. Well, it's the one thing because the silhouette of the nine 11 is. It's one of those like you cannot mistake the silhouette of a nine 11. Whereas other cars like an E 30 M three, for example, it's all nuance. So you guys at the silhouette of an E 30 M three is basically what my child draws when I say draw a car. Yeah, for sure. That's what I was thinking about this, right? You like, is that a Volvo or is that a M three? Yeah, if you want to impress someone or a Dodge Aries, yeah. If you want to impress like general people, a base nine 11 and a top level nine 11 look pretty similar, like the shape is there and you're like, oh, yeah, that's right. Right. Whereas if you have an E 30 M three, if you have a 190 E Kazi, if you have a fucking Audi RS two, it's if you know, you know, thing. That's literally your license plate. Yeah. So if you're trying to like flex to the general public that you are this unique person driving an old Audi station wagon that has Porsche parts on it, like isn't going to express that enough except to deep nerds. Yeah, that's who I want to talk. No, no, I know. But I'm in a gas station. I want the deepest of nerds. Yeah. To ask you to appreciate that about my out. But then that comes back to the whole thing about when somebody says, what's the guy's name who said that Porsches aren't cool anymore? James Pompry. Yeah. When he says, um, Porsches aren't cool, what does cool mean to who? And you guys, you guys kind of kick this off with that. I don't want Porsches to be tremendously cool to people who don't, I think, add value back into the culture, the community of it. I want them to be cool because they're robust. You can do almost anything you want with them. Aside from turning into a monster truck. Um, they, they're strong. They're well built. They're engineered to out punch anything in their weight in horse power class. You know, and that's, that to me is cool when you can take something like that. What the ripple effect. To, to, you just said something 10 years ago, and I thought back 10 years ago, the 991 GT3 came out and that to me was like, that's crazy. Yeah. And that was 2014 or 15, 16 now. But like 2014 that was introduced. And that was when I started to see the, the seriousness of the driver fade into the darkness with their three cards that they have their F body, G body and a new nine, and a nine, seven GT3. And they just kept those and they didn't move on to the 991s. And so the people who did move on to the 991s. Yeah. Maybe there were track rats and they wanted something and then, but Porsche had a hiccup then and it almost killed it because the people who said, Oh, not one's going to be a lot faster than the engine started blowing up. They had the F, the F engine. Yeah. And then that almost, I saw that almost kill the track enthusiast. Right. They started looking back at the 996 and 997 GT3s and they're like, you know what, actually, I can get a cup car for half the price. Yeah. You know, and, and go get a, you know, and so it was a, it's a weird, a weird gig here. Well, it's going to say like financially though, it has to be great as a business owner who services Porsches because the values have climbed up. So your clientele who are buying them should have more money or are willing to spend more money on them. There's a different viewpoint on that. Yeah. There's, you know, with ADMs and the dealership, the person who could go get a 997, 991, 992 GT3 RS, they're paying a lot more for the car. So now what that's done is created a value appreciation model that then if, is it still going to be worth as much if I mod it? There's also, there's also, holy shit, I just spent my. You also are buying them as investments now. Right. I also spent my entire mod budget just to get in line for it. Right. And so that's interesting. Yeah. And then, and then you look at like 997s, they, they shot up. What are you doing with your 997 right now? You're putting it kind of back to stock. You're the new one. Yeah. The new one. Yeah. I'm putting it, not back to stock, but like. But you're getting it more streetish, right? Yeah. More streetable. Well, I've done more conversions back to stock on cars lately than I have modifying them. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but. No, I know what you mean. That is the flip side. That's sad. That is the, and that's, that could be. I want to, I want to buy a car that was built by you guys and the dude's like, yeah, I know it's not going to be worth as much because it's built. Right. To 99, white 997 GT2. Yeah. Okay. So he like thinks he wants to sell and he's like, I don't know where to price it because like the modded ones sell for fractions of the price. Except there was a time right before the GT2s went up 992 or the 997 GT2s, right? They're still like the $200,000 range. And we had two modified ones out there heavily modified and they, it was the one time I ever saw getting a premium for a car because it was built by us. Sick. Yeah. This, it was a black one. That's the car that made like 1600 horsepower and we proved that it was a reliable package and then another white one earlier on. And those are the only two that went above market. What do you do with 1600 horsepower? I don't know. 11. Like, we drove that R8. What does mine make? 400? Yeah, maybe. It's plenty. Remember we, remember we drove that I-Raws R8 on a drag strip, on a air strip? Yeah, it was bonkers. Bonkers. I was like, I literally drove it and I was like giddy for like 40 minutes after. So hang-eye-Raws is it was, it was giddy, but. I even said, I was like, this is stupid. What do you do with this? But there was definitely, it wasn't raw. It was just fast. It was insane. It was a 1600 horsepower two wheel drive. H-pattern 911 is as fucking raw as you'll ever get. Like there was such pattern. It is nuts. No, because the car is constantly trying to drive in front of itself with the rear end every shift, it's slowly unweight and it gets back down and start smoking the tires again. And it's like, that's why I look at, I'm like, you know, trying to set records out there. This was a little while ago. I haven't gone to the strip in a long time, but then I was like watching people in Lamborghinis and R8s just like drinking coffee, you know, making the same horsepower dusting me, you know, like. Right, right. So, but it's part of that driving experience that you just get out. You're like, whoa, what? Yeah. Whoa. It's like, like grabbing a tiger by the tail and slapping his ass. And like Ryan said, we drove the R8, 600 horsepower, fucking dual clutch, whatever. It's very like. Man, even though it gear, I was in it, I was like, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. And I was like, oh, watch the video back to find out I made it into six. Whereas like with an H pattern car, you know, exactly. Yeah, you're like, you know, like. Well, like even in EVO, EVO makes 800 horsepower when we got it yanked up, maybe 740 when I was driving it. That is so, so, so much car. But here's the thing. It's not really the fastest car out there. No, it's very, very engaging. It's very like, and that's what I'm after. I'm after, I'm after that feeling that this car requires your attention and it requires your respect and it doesn't matter. It could be a G body at 250 horsepower and a Canyon road or it could be 800 horsepower, paddle shifted EVO. But I want that feeling that I get when I downhill ski or mountain bike or shift or cart, you know, where other people yoga, meditation, they get that same singularly focused met, you know, you get out, you're just like, oh, I needed that. That's why the the the the focus required to drive cars is probably why a lot of these kids are just like driving their cars off Angeles crest because like you get an 87 M2 and you're like, I don't need to do shit. And then you're just doing 100 on a decreasing radius corner and you're like. And you just. Yeah, exactly. So like the level of respect that you have to have for a vehicle that can bite you. Yeah. It you don't need that element that's numb in these newer cars. Like it is unbelievable how quick they can go. But you still have a loss of physics again. I don't care what kind of ace traction control you still have lateral acceleration versus versus one G and like. And the minute you break traction, physics takes over. Physics doesn't matter anymore. How well the car was handling until the moment it does. Right. Like when I spun the car is the same thing. It's like there's no TC or ABS or vectoring that could save you. I left the limits of physics, right? And I was like, now I'm along for the ride like a lawn dart heading toward the wall. But and again, I'm like, this might just be because of my age now that because I have a kid, but like I am so much more attracted to a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Just admit it. Admit it. We are getting older. We are appreciating things a little differently now. But we're not going for that. Those accolades that we went and ran. But I also wouldn't want to drive a new car slow because it's just not excited. Yeah, but you don't feel like you're driving a new car fast until it's way too late. You that's the problem. Yeah. You won't get that feeling. You guys take out my Audi 200 Avant on snow tires by the farm. It's terrifying. Cars slides all four wheels into most corners. And guess what you think you're doing like 30 miles an hour. And guess what? If you fuck up, you barely go off. Right. But guess what? I promise you one thing. You're only thinking about that. You're not thinking about like, yeah, you are. You're focused. You're focused when everything is doing. That's the idea. You're sawing the wheel. To me, that's what makes a car cool. Not how fast it is, not the lap times, but that connection that you can get with it where all of a sudden you when you get back out of it, you're like, oh, I actually didn't think about anything, especially a D.D. mind like you and me and like VINZ a lot more collected. But, you know, it's like it gives you that feeling of almost just like relief. I see it's my meditation. Yes, exactly. That's why I was offended by the Porsches aren't cool anymore thing because I was like Porsches are only not cool and a certain vertical, which is like segmented in a I bought this because I was a in line for an appreciating asset or B, I can go hang with other people who have Porsches who I think are cool. And that's obviously what they drive. Yeah. And honestly, and if you just want to buy your way into a community, like I'm not even mad at that. I'm just more like a cool community. Also admit it. Don't tell me that Porsches aren't cool anymore because you got into the community. You don't really like have the people in there anyway. I actually because like James is a good friend of mine. So like I love giving my friendship, but like I want to let him drive my GT3 and be like, tell me this is a great episode. That's a great episode because I know. But I but again, I know where he put him in the EVO on track. But again, I know where he's coming from is like James and I did he precious that I didn't watch that. No, but I get what he's getting at because it's like James and I enjoy cars differently and I think that he is looking at it specifically from like an aesthetic and like optics situation, not like a experiential driving thing. And I I get it because I do agree on like that surface level. And I get it. I obviously this is like I grew up as like a kid in the punk rock scene. The minute a band got on the radio, you didn't like it. Yeah, but that's what right. Like Green Day. That's a natural progression of success. Unfortunately. Yeah, like that's what happens. You get bigger, you're bigger. Trust me, there are people who hated Hoonigan once Hoonigan got too big. I get it and I respect it. I think with the Porsche thing right now, such a paradox. Well, no, but like, but like it's weird because like I'll tell people like, oh, yeah, like even just forget me. This is a different conversation, but like people hate RWBs now. I don't care. I fucking love this car. I love how it looks. I love how it drives. I love everything it does. I've had people hit me up and say, oh, you're going to remove all the RWB stuff. And it's like, why? Because the internet made some memes about in the car. Like living on home care, man. Like you're losing sleep over my car. Like that's funny. I guess I still think RWBs are irrelevant. I still think they they're a huge, huge fixture in what created the culture that we're just talking about. So it's like you can't hate on that no matter what. Yeah, you know, it'll be remembered. Yep. The good parts of it, you know, won't be remembered the memes. Like the time he got caught like mocking up a tow hook. Like that was funny. Yeah. That was great internet. Apparently a brain rot. But like no one's going to remember that in 15. And apparently the story, because I reached out to them and was just like, Hey man, just so you guys know, it's like kind of like does like you guys should respond to this and whatever. And it's like they were doing it for the photo shoot. The guy had an air tank. That's I know. Yeah. In the front of the car. So they couldn't actually mount it. And then they kind of glued it on as a joke and they filmed the gluing on as a joke, but it didn't translate. But they didn't translate. No, because there's 75 people watching you do it. So you can't. And you have you have the energy of the internet wanting to just shit on you for something. And they're like that. I'll say this. The fact that you put air on a 9-11 is a problem. Yeah. To me. Okay. And that's a whole other. Those who belong on there. It's a different audience, but whatever. But also it's like, and I'm sure you deal with it with like clients and like who's actually going to spend money. But it's like, you know, people make fun of RWB for doing that glued on tow hook thing. But then you're like, none of y'all motherfuckers are buying one because the guys who are like, I know a couple of guys who have built them recently. They're still buying them. They're not like worried about it. They live in the price bracket. They live in memes don't go to their house. Yeah, exactly. It's stuck at the bottom of the note. Yeah. Yeah. They get filtered out over at my house. Yeah. Memes are different. They don't, they don't get past the. But if you have, if you have air on a air cooled 9-11 glue your tow hook on, you're not going to the track. Yeah. I could fuck it. If you have air on any 9-11, just clear tow hook. You're fine. Yeah. Or you put rain light on a car and you live in Southern California. That to me, it's also put on. I'm so happy I didn't finish doing that on the 360. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I thought about it. You put a rain light, you know, the FIA rain light on the like the the the brick white. Yeah, the brick. Yeah, you do that on a car and you live in Southern California. Like, okay, are you half of the track days get canceled when it rains? Anyway, I'm a little bit of a loser because I'm like, it looks cool. But that's just me. That's all right. I'll be a little bit of a right. So it's a different verdict. It's a different vertical. Do they make them for the 360? I want one too. Dude, it's got the perfect spot in the producer for it. See, we're just. I love it. Risotto brothers over here. Yeah. Um, I know that you have a hard hour. I gotta go. Because you gotta pick up your kids. So I'll ask you a couple of quick questions. Hit me. So type 99 Evo. We talked about this is you trying to take all the best parts of all Porsches you've driven over the whole gamut of the existence of the 9-11. Right. And stick it into one car. Right. What to you is the best drivers 9-11? We just built it. Well, not a modified one. Like if you had like off the showroom floor. Oh, 997.1 GD3 RS. Okay. That to me was the most fun I had in a stock car ever. Ever thing. And then of the air cooled generation, what would be the top for you? I would say I would have to say a 930. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because it just look, you're not going for all speed in any G body car, but it gives you this feeling like I'm in a fucking 9-11. Yeah. It's making the noises you've read about like the turbo car. It's and it is just so much fun to lean into one on a stock 930 and they get on the throttle and feel like trying to fight for like, I've never driven one, but I want to. Yeah. So bad. And there's something so special about that. Well, my car not anymore, but originally it was basically a 930 with revised or a suspension, right? Because it's the still 930 engine set up before they went to the three six. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So the MFI engine and all that stuff. Yeah. It's a banana arm car. And then on your car, particularly they had the wider rear link. So it actually had a lot more rear stability. And it still stepped out. It's still, you still almost wiped out. But yeah, that's to me, I think the 930 and the 997.1 GD3 RS. That's a good one. Yeah. All right. But Tim, well, thanks for stopping by. Unless you have any other questions, when were you got any last moment? Last things, because I'm going to keep Vinny here for like, three hours. We're going to keep going. I thought you were my ride. No, I saw y'all drive two separate cars. Well, why don't we see how a one hour and nine minute pod does? No, it's not. The trust me, all the hate will go right toward you. These guys are in for the long run. They get hate on me. It's no. All right, boys, I got to go. All right, bye. Peace and love. See you. The fuck are we going to talk about? Oh, hey, you know, this is a good time for me to remind you guys that if you like what you're hearing, there's more of it on Patreon. For example, I could read you articles from zero to 60 that I wrote. I don't actually have to do that. I wasn't planning on it, but the cool thing about Patreon is I can do kind of whatever you guys want because on Patreon, you're the boss. Go subscribe. So ready to get into the conversation. You know, I'm trying to jump in first. I know. I feel like I got the. It's like we're waiting. I got the trans break on trying to jump in front of Brian. Let's get. Yeah, the two over talkers. Brian dedicated some time to being on my YouTube channel as part of our deal. And I kept them for too long. So now this podcast is going to go till tomorrow. That's right. Here we go. Okay. I want to get back to the core of this, which is and like, I want to be careful because like I'm not trying to gatekeep and people want to come spend a hundred thousand dollars on a nine 11 and belong to whatever. That's cool. I think the thing that worries me and it's the same thing that worried me in any of the hobbies or things I did was the minute it, and I feel about this way, just in car culture in general, but like we can be specific on nine 11. I was really into snowboarding. Snowboarding got really big. It was really cool to watch snowboarding get big. It went to the Olympics. All the mountains let us ride there. There was all this plus side to it. Then all of a sudden like snowboarding died and like you watch like everything kind of drained out from it. Right. And obviously people who are riding in the sport lost sponsorship. Right. Like all of a sudden, like the whole industry shrinks. I've seen it in the automotive space multiple times. Damn, you think the automotive industry is going to shrink because right now it's like hotter than ever. I think it's going to shrink. Yeah. Yeah. With a lot of phone. Because I've been through it once before like the pit my ride era. It was massive. There was so much money in automotive. Everybody was spending in automotive. Not just automotive, but like non-demic, which created all this jobs and created all this industry and it created a lot of like fake sense of security for people. And then it rippled. Because I think people are jumping into automotive because it's cool. And which is awesome. Obviously everyone who's trying to fucking cloud up is starting businesses and ways to generate revenue. And I think that that will second that shit doesn't work out. They're going to be like a mass accident. So they're just going to be like, I'm out. So I think like the way, yeah. And this is what, you know, always worries me. So I, you know, back in the day, I always used to say this, like one of my most important goals of Hoonigan was to bring younger audiences into cars. Because like when we started Hoonigan, cars were not like that, you know, young kids weren't getting their licenses. Like, yeah, I remember the whole campaign, the day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it was like, we were, it was like a, it was a thing. And it wasn't just the thing that we put in a deck. It was like, I really believed it. I wanted to see more kids find the same hobbies that we did. Cause I, I love cars and I love car culture. And it's the reason that all of us are friends and it's great. Um, the scary thing is though, is that when it gets too big, it's like a title wave, like it pulls all the way out. Like as big as the wave is coming in, like you get this like retraction. And then your attraction part is what scares me where the 9-11 community gets huge and it, I mean, Loofed, all these things are amazing. Like I, like I've said this hands down, I think Loofed to Cult changed what the concept of a car show should be. I think that, you know, Pat and like that whole crew, they, they did a fantastic job with it. I always enjoy going, they're highly curated. It, it inspired a bit of what we did with Trefpunk. Um, I just think they do a fantastic job at it. And it's during this, and I think that one, it couldn't have happened if Porsches didn't peak the way they did. But I also think that they're part of what helps to peak, right? They gave a place for all of this. And I think my fear is that I, I don't think I could think of any single mark that felt as big as Porsches feel right now. No. And it's like, what happens if the floor falls out on that? And like, what does that look like for, you know, Porsche tuners, all the cool parts? Cause without question, everything that's happened with Porsches right now has been good for Porsche owners. One, the value of cars gone up. But even if you didn't want the value of your car to go up like me, cause I have no intention of selling it, like the accessibility to parts, to aftermarket stuff, like to all this like really cool bespoke stuff that people make. Like, you know, all these things have come out in the marketplace now because of it. Um, that's really cool, but like does a lot of that fall away. And then you just get to this world where like I, you know, I want to be careful cause I don't want to be like, I'm so punk rock. Once other people like Porsches, I didn't like them. Right. I still love my Porsche. Yeah. It doesn't change anything about the way I feel about my car. It does make me feel a little bit different about other people's cars though. Cause you're like, I've just seen this a lot. It feels saturated. It's kind of like the same thing. So I actually don't, I don't have any feeling about the Porsche scene. Like I don't care. I don't care how many people are into it. I don't care. Anything. Like it doesn't affect me at all. I think the only topic I was really thinking about was like saying they're no, no longer cool is kind of crazy to me. By the way, we've called James out for this and I don't want to single him out. A lot of people are saying, no, no, this is like, it's like become the new things to be like, all Porsches aren't cool. And it's like, no, Porsches are hyper cool. Like, like as a driver's car, like they are fantastic. Yeah. And that's why I guess I really don't care because I, you know, you, you enjoy things the way you enjoy them. So for me, like I go to cars, coffee, meat and stuff, but like you just like you use your car for what it is. Like, you know, I don't know if I give a shit that, you know, Deis is flooded with nine 11 ease and, you know, all these guys driving Targas that don't care about them. Like it doesn't affect me. I'm just like, I think it's kind of corny, but I'm like, you do you. Yeah. You know, but like to me, yeah, I think there's a part of it where there was this surge of like, I'm going to buy any nine 11 I can, I don't care what it is. I just want to belong and I want to own a nine 11 and, and it's like, it's a Targa or it's a worse of a vert. Like honestly, like just pause for a second. I actually, why, why build my 11? Convertibles, a subscriber just hit me up. And I was so excited because I had just mentioned that I was like going to start a dealership and I want to like sell cars. And I'll say something about that in a sec, but he offered me a car and he's like, I have an 89, 930. And I was like, one, I thought 89 was nine 64, but maybe not. No, no. So late 89 became nine 64. So I was like, wow, yes, I want this. And he was like, all right, good and bad. What do you want to know first? I was like, give me the good. He's like, car is great. G 50, blah, blah. Oh, what's the bad? He's like, it's a cab. I was like, not interested. Yeah. Dammit. I was like, dude, the fact like finding an off market 930 is like incredible, but a cab, I just couldn't do it. I said we were going to stay focused, but I just want to have the convertible conversation because 10 years ago I hated all convertibles unless it was a suicide door Lincoln, like, or like a vintage job, right? Like big body. Yeah. I slowly find myself wanting a convertible again, but I can't cross the line with an I11 because we talked about like a 964. 911. 911 convertibles is just a weird shape to me. So are Beatles, by the way. You know what's also really bad convertible? The 350 and 370Z, the Nissan Juke or whatever. Like there's just, I mean, what's good about the Juke? Yeah, I don't know, but it's just the same awkwardness where you're like, this doesn't look good with no roof. You know what's a good looking convertible? E30, E36, E46. Sob 9, Sob 9, 3. Sob 9, 3. Hard convertible. Cabby, the VW cabby. All right. Maybe I stand alone there, but we were like, oh, we were, we were, we were going well for that. We were there for a second. Does that make any convertibles? TT doesn't count. The TT is a convertible. They do make it. Yeah, that's like a speed thing. Cause it feels more like the roadster. It feels like a roadster. You know, all right. So this is a complete tangent, but B6S4 cabs. Oh, sick. We went to H2W when it was tight. Are actually really affordable right now. Like I've been thinking about buying one as a daily because it's kind of done. So I don't hate all convertibles. Mercedes, the king of full convertibles. Mercedes crushes the convertible. Come on. I mean, Mercedes. No, no, it's true. SL convertibles are fresh. Dave, all the way back from the 60s. 911 convertibles. Can't do it. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work for me. Is that because they stylistically don't look cool or just that the car needs to be a hard top? Everything. I don't know. There's something about it. Like makes me mad. I like, I just want to punch him when I see him. Yeah. Hey, I don't know what it is about your face. Just change it. No, I get it. You know, you're just like, oh, so bad. It's like, it's like, you know what it is about the 911 cab to me? It's like someone who has a ton of like God given talent that they don't use. You're like, you were like, awesome sports. Yeah. Like me. Something like a six foot eight. Man who could have played ball instead. You got it for the Nickabockers, but instead I got into things that were meant for short people like snowboarding, BMX and sports cars. Exactly. That's the kind of frustration I have. You know, today is a big mental clarity day. I think the. Wow. You also have a two by four that holds up lights. That's incredible. Um, they don't see that on camera. We don't talk about that. It's a good move. That's honest. This guy's one day on the Patreon. Brian's going to show you through. I'll show you my two by four. Incredible. Um, I think today made me realize the reason why I hate nine 11 cabs is because to me, you buy a nine 11 because they're like a sports car. But like, if you buy a nine 11 cab, you're, are you sports carring it? You're probably not sports carring it. No, you're not sports car. So like just get a cooler, just get a cooler car. Yeah. Cause it's actually, cause honestly a nine 11 is not a fun car to cruise. It doesn't cruise well. Get a convertible that you could put people on the back. Yeah. Like a sob nine three. Yeah. Yeah. Or a Mercedes. Yeah. The one good use for cabs is to give them the TJ Russell so he can make Baja nine 11s from them. Yeah. That was good. Yeah. Or sell them to like singer and they could put roofs on them and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm into that. I thought about buying, which has started a campaign to like, like, you know, it's like help, like, like help put a roof over your cabbie. You know, it's like, we like run the whole thing. Like it's a homeless campaign, but it's really just like, let's put roofs back on cab. I thought about seeing if that cab was cheap enough that I could put a roof on it. But then I was like, nine 11 people are a little finicky on the, cause like the turbo is like a collector. So like, I don't know if anyone's going to buy it. But I was like, that would have been fun. Yeah. I think project. I think you can put the target on it a lot easier. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, I don't care. I judged the, um, the Porsche classic event and someone found, I think it was a cabbie, you know, I think it was a Targa and then they converted to a cabbie and then they converted back to a Targa and like the painstaking steps they did just to get the car back to like what the window sticker said was kind of incredible. Yeah. That's like, I really, like, I'm not that kind of person on the purist level. It's equivalent of like my wife did to the house, but it was kind of cool to see the amount of work that they went into like restoring the car. Because when they looked at the paperwork, they realized it was like a one of seven. Yeah. And I'm not like, oh my God, it's a one of seven, but you know, I respect people who want to do stuff. You know, again, being a full blown fucking loser, um, follow the car market and stuff. Like you could easily put this nine, six, four turbo back to factory and sell it for a half a million dollars, which is wild because well, it was a red, it was a white on red car white on red dealership. And you'll, you could, you could put it back to stock and sell it for a ton of money because like the rare car world is kind of crazy. So like big, big, big money cars that were preserved will always like be, you know, 10 X because I just sold my GT3 RS. I've been watching the market, you know, cause I want to see like what other ones are going for, seeing if I made a mistake. And there's one right now selling on bring a trailer for a tremendous amount of money. And it's a GMG car also mine was 19. This one's 23. And it used to be two years ago, a year ago, if a car came up and it was modified and put back to stock, bro, the people came out with the pitchforks and like tank the sale because they're like, you're not pulling one over on us. You want collector grade cars. This thing had a sequential shifter. It had every arm replaced, every suspension. It had stop texts. It had JRZ's, everything. Now it's dolled up all stock carbon ceramics back on its stock suspension, everything, and it's selling for a tremendous amount of money. And people don't even give a shit that it has been put back to stock now. But that's because all the original ones are gone. And I watched that happen in the air cooled community where at first it was the turbos that got expensive and then it was the C2s. Yeah. And then it was like the track cars converted back and then it was the C4s. And then it was the Targas. And then even the cabbies went up in price. I mean, I never thought a nine six four cabbie was going to be worth more than one. And I didn't buy my nine nine seven, the new one to sell it. But I'm like, you know, I probably could put this back to stock and leave the four liter in it and get a tremendous amount of money and let people. I mean, I make YouTube videos like I'm not hiding anything, but I guarantee I could show everything, show putting the car back to stock and still sell it for because the market, the market demands it. And we'll get another one. You'll find another one. Yeah, there's two listed for sale. Have fun. Yeah. You know, but then you'd be without nine 11. Yeah, which I can't be. Like if you had to choose right now between a Ferrari and nine 11. But nine 11. Well, this is so fucking lame. For the internet, the Ferrari crushes. Yeah. So this is what we said in that episode. The Ferrari is a special car. Yeah. Internet. Internet me needs the three 60. If I were just like, if I deleted my internet and I was like, I get one fun car to drive, it's going to be the nine 11 all day. 100%. I love the three 60, but if I only could have one and I didn't care about anything else, yeah, GD for sure. For sure. When I spend like a day driving the nine 11, like I get home and like I begrudgingly pull it into the garage because I want to stay out in the car. Like it just, I, it is an experience that none of my other cars have. I don't know. It's just, it's just this and that nothing I don't love the Ferrari. It, the Ferrari is super special, but I'm happy to take it in like one hour long dosages where nine 11, like it's just. Jolly and I got back and we were fucking jazzed. We were looking at rollers and I was like, this is so cool. Like having those two cars out was like incredible. I was so pumped. I'm not saying it wasn't cool. I'm saying like we didn't go run canyons. We like just cruise around industrialized driving around in Long Beach area of California. I anytime I get home, I'm like, I'm so thankful to not be in a car. Dude, there was one moment where we were like, you had already gotten over to the left lane and I was behind you and then you went over and I realized that there was just like an opening in the earth that went all the way down to hell. Oh, yeah. It was just like a 10 foot hole that I had to and I got like one tire stuck in it because I couldn't move over sometimes I watch these car YouTubers in the UK and they make like car videos and they're just out in like Wales driving. And it's like quiet and beautiful. And then I think about the day we had, we're driving around fucking Wilmington and it's just like, if there's not a homeless guy yelling, it's a fucking 18 wheeler with its rear axle locked up, driving by. Yeah, like you're just like, what is going on? This is going to be the moment I lose my car. It was just the whole back of the trailer was just bouncing. Yeah, I was like, what goes on here? You can't get a single moment of silence. It's like insane. Yeah, but anyway, I don't know, back to the Porsche thing. It's a, I, it's a weird place to be because it's like just like as I'm now older. Did you like Green Day when you were a kid? No. Because they were just like too poppy or because they were on the radio. I think by the time you were a lot younger than me, you're almost 10 years younger than Yeah, I'm almost 10 years younger than you. So by the time. 37. Yes, you're nine years. So by the time. Yeah, like I learned about it. It probably just felt like another radio band. Yeah. Like, you know, I didn't get the cool experience. It was just like a band that listened on K-Rock. For me in that era, I was like super dialed in. I mean, literally like my lifestyle was hanging out at punk rock bars and hanging out with punk bands and all of that, you know, and like, you know, doing all that stuff and it was, if you didn't hate Green Day, you weren't welcome in that space. Yeah. Yeah. And like I now listen to Green Day and Blink 202. I didn't listen to any of it when I was younger because it was like, I was just like, Oh, it's not cool. Too many people listen to it. But like, I don't know, like the Dookie album is like pretty good. And like as you get older and now it's like, I respect that those guys like did their thing. Yeah. Kind of bummed that no effects never made any money because they never sold out or whatever. But as you get older, you're like, ah, yeah, you kind of like see it from like, from a different perspective. And I bring that up because I think what we're talking about today, verges on the like, yeah, porches were cool when I was into them, but now that everybody else is into them, I don't think they're cool anymore. I'm not saying that. I still think porches are really cool. I don't think porches will ever stop being cool. I don't think porches were, I think porches were just as cool in 1988. As they are, they'll be in 19 in 2028. Yeah. But there's a trend that like made them like, yeah. And like the hype thing is different than the cool thing. Totally. But I think we'll see like the hype train. We've seen hype come and go at a ton of different things that we're into. So I don't know. I feel like it's been pretty evergreen though. Like the Porsche hype has been up for 10 years. Like usually. 10 years plus. Now I wonder if that's because for most people buying a car is such a big purchase that like once you're in, you're kind of in and you're like, I'm not going to just sell this thing. Oh, I think Porsche ownership right now is like Los Angeles real estate. Like you're afraid to sell because you know, you can't buy back in again. Totally. Yeah. Especially if you've been into it, like if you got on kind of the early kick when you bought a car and left was just getting it started. Or me when I bought this at 30 grand. Yeah. It's 10 X or 35 grand. Yeah. I mean, dude, I bought my GT3s for half of what they were worth. Like it's insane. You know, and I'm like, I actually am. I'm one of the guys. I bought a car, I sold it and now I'm like, I kind of want one. I could afford to buy it again, but like I won't, you know, like I still have the money I could just go out and buy it. But I'm like, I don't want to. That's why, like, you used to give me so much shit for not selling this and they were worth even less back then. Yeah. But you still be like, dude, that is the biggest come up. That's the craziest thing ever. Yeah. To buy a car for 35 grand and have it be worth $300,000 is like. Fuck man. That's insane. And the problem is, is like, if right now you were like, here's $300,000 in cash and I handed you the title, I couldn't hand you that money to buy the car back. Yeah. Cause like, but for right now, like it, even though it, it's worth that in my head, it's like, it's on paper. It's not like real much, right? Until you cash out. Once that money's in your bank account, like I could never trade that for this again. I guess my thing with you is, you know, I never understand you. You're in a big ma. You're in a big ma of a person to me. Cause you are, um, you know, Rye wire and I talked about the GT3R essay on I was like, you enjoy cars by having them and collecting them and owning them and like that's like, and I get it. You go to his shop and they're all under like clear covers. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he's a collector. You're kind of a collector too, but you don't take care of anything. Like you're like, I love this car so much. It's like disrespectfully dirty. I want to fight you because of how dirty this car is. I'm like, can I clean this? I'm almost about to get you spot. This pod is going to get sponsored by GTeknik and they're not even going to pay you. They're just going to have DbG come here and wash your cars once. Yo, I would take that sponsorship. No money. Just keep the cars clean. Just pay Gustavo to come wash the cars once a month. That's it. The love of Christ. That's the deal. Just so Vinny can sleep at night. Vinny's sitting there going, I don't even like the essay, but he put a car cover on it without cleaning. It's black. Fresh paint. Yeah. Yeah. So you're just different. You're a special boy. Yeah. Like the last thing I would want is like a J.Lano situation where like all my cars just like on display. I mean, same. Like that's not what I want them for. Um, but for me, I just think that my timeline is a lot longer than everyone else. Totally. Like, you know, I realize that it doesn't matter if it takes 25 years for me to get the out of Kukwatch or start finished. And by the way, that sounds like a crazy amount of time. It's already been 22 years. So I got, I got three years left. No, you know, it's crazy because the first time I went to your other property and you were talking about building a barn with like a second story and whatever. And you were like, you said like super casually or like, yeah, I mean, it'll be like, it's probably 15 years out. I was like, Oh my God, Scott, it was so different from me because to me, I think about projects that I need to do like next month and I'd be like, I need to get that done now. Like I'm so impatient. To a fault in a lot of ways. Like you said this once to me at like Hoonigan, you know, you said those first two years, you would drag us into these meetings and you would come up with these ideas and I just sat there saying these are never going to happen because two years went by and none of them happened. And then they all happened. And it's like, I think that's just the difference is like my like, it's probably like a bit of it. I don't mean to put everything on ADHD, but like there's this big joke in ADHD, which is like it was for ADHD people, time is only in two variables. One is now and not now. Yeah. So it's like, I'm either working on it now or not now and not now could be like five years down the line. Yeah, I guess cause, and this is totally. Think about most of daily transmission and scumbag labs and all those ideas were ideas that we had had on the table for years. But I think cause I think about things very practically with like what I can accomplish now or what I'm capable of now. Whereas like you were thinking about stuff at Hoonigan that wasn't possible with the team we had. And then we like in some ways felt like we didn't plan for it. And then we were like, Oh, fuck, now we can do it. And then we did it. I don't know if that was like fully the plan because I was a grom when I started there. So like who knows, but you know, like you did, you think in a different, like in a different world, I think like right in front of me. Right. Like I have projects that require me to become a master fabricator before I can finish them. So anyway, I don't know. Um, I just look at projects differently. Yeah. I respect it. I start to, uh, I start to realize it and I'm like, Oh wow. Like, I think as I get older, I'm just better at like understanding how people function and I'm like, wow, we're also fucking different. And like when you understand kind of what makes people tick and like how they think it's interesting. And that's why I always say to you, I'm like, I don't know, I don't really fucking understand you. Like I had to start the other day because you'll say things to me. And like in the moment, I'll kind of laugh them off. And then I'll like lay in bed being like, Hmm, that's weird. Maybe I should, maybe I should like talk to someone about that. Cause I'm like your practical friend that says it. Yeah. Because like, look, and I've said this 2026 is the year that I get my car collection, you know, under control and like under control for me might be different than under control for you. Yeah. But like, I think I actually realized something that like growing up as a kid who, you know, I'm not going to say we were poor because like a lot of people were more poor, but like we didn't have a lot. Right. And it's like that I think when you do get stuff, you hold onto it like dearly. Right. Cause you're like, oh, I like, if you got a good deal on something, you know, like might be a Mexican guy, I had a cool BMX bike, but like almost all the parts were bought secondhand. Yeah. Same. Got my Paragrine wheels, you know, and a trade like got my three piece cranks and a trade, you know, like, and then once you got them, you're like, this, I never will let go of this because like, I could have never bought it at full price. Yeah. And you joke with me all the time because you're always like, you act like you're still poor. Yeah. But to me, there's a bit of that with the car collection, which is like, I would never sell my 9-11 because I'm just too cheap to buy another one. Yeah. Same. But you're just sold yours. Yeah. But for a business reason, and I think like, you know, we had talked about my dealership and how to do it with content. I think like the red thread for like long-term viewership is my fucking goals to get it at 40. Like I've had it in my bio forever that it's paperclip to F40 and the goal, the dealership 40 costs today, two million bucks. And I'm not going to buy one for me. Like I'm not going to buy an F40 and drive it, but my goal for the dealership will be to transact an F40. That's cool. Like I work my way up to earning enough money where I can buy an F40, make two fucking videos on it and drive it a couple times and then sell it. Like, because I don't want to own a $2 million F40, but if my goal was to be like, I'm going to build up my business so I can transact them, like that would be sick. And I think that will be fun for me as like my North Star, because then I'll never feel like, oh, I got rid of this car that, you know, I'm bummed about missing. It'll be like, no, I'm fucking, I'm trying for the top, you know, because that was always the joke. My bio has always been paperclip F40. And I'm like, the F40 just seems so outside of nowhere near reality. Yeah. I mean, all of those cars, Carrera GT, like they all just feel just so. But my thing, I remember when that car was 400 grand. And like I said earlier, though, it's like, I, a lot of times, like I look at the price of cars differently because I look at like inverse out. So to me, if you're like, I'm going to spend, you know, 200 grand and buy a XYZ, but I know I'm going to sell it for 200 grand, not even make and profit. Like if you're just like, I can use it and I could sell it for about what I paid, like it's not really like a big drop. So if I'm like doing a business and I'm buying and selling cars, like buying a $2 million car, might not matter if you're going to sell it for 2.0, like 10% is what brokers make. So if you buy a $2 million car, you sell it for 2.2 million bucks, you're like, bro, you make 200 grand. Yeah, sick. You know, like it's insane. Did your parents, like buy, when I say buy and sell, do they swap out cars often? Did your dad work to the dealer? My dad worked, still works the same dealership. That's wild. Crazy. That's such a Long Island thing. My mom had like three cars our whole life. Yeah. She didn't go through cars, but my dad used to get demo cars every six months. Or every six weeks or something. I asked because my parents would buy, my parents never would buy used cars. They would buy brand new cars. And then at some point a tow truck would take them off our property. Oh, my dad. Like my dad would literally drive a car until it just wouldn't drive anymore and nobody would buy it for us. That's how my dad is though. So my dad gets new cars from the dealership as like demos constantly. Now he gets used to ones, but like he used to get new ones when I was a kid. But every car he's ever had, like my mom's cars used until nothing. Like they have a E46 ZHP convertible. I know I've been in it. Oh, that's right. Yeah. And he bought that car for like 4500 bucks and had an OEM hardtop. They sold it. So he's into a like nothing. And it's a kind of nice car. Yeah. But like it's on the path. That's another good. That's another acceptable convertible. Good looking convertible. That's a car that in like three years, he's just going to sell it for like a pizza because it's going to be like every bushing will be blown out. The transmission won't work. All the seats will be ripped. The steering wheel will have fucking holes in it and it'll just be like smoked and you'll just be like, well, the kid down the blocks said he'll buy it. You know, like that's where it'll go. The only car that my parents ever sold that they didn't have to pay a junk company to come get it and tow it off the property is this my mom's Z which got totaled because we bought it off of them and I forced my parents to sell it to me. Like that's it. Actually, it's not total. The guy they fixed it. It now has like what's the later engine, whatever came in the G30. Didn't your mom get like a horrifically bad axle with that? That was her second Z. So she missed the Z so much that she went and bought a low mileage 40,000 mile cream puff Z and then got T boned in. And like, I mean, it was horrible. Yeah. I mean, I've, I have Jeff, Jeff Stoneback bought the other one. Jeff Stone, well, actually, you know, Hurt bought the other one and never paid me for it and never paid my parents for it and then gave it to Jeff Stoneback and then I had to go chase Jeff Stoneback down for it and then Jeff had never paid us for it and then Jeff had sold it to someone else and then finally Jeff paid my parents for it. I love that. So my parents finally got paid for it. But when we were at the, when we were at E town for Drifter, my parents were there and someone came up to us and was like, my buddy has your car to my mom. And was like, yeah, he's got it now. And it's got, I guess, the VK 37 because they put a G37 engine. Yeah. So yeah. So thing lives on. Still, still crushing still drift car in the club loose boys, but I love it. But no, but I bring that up because I think when I look at cars, I like the concept of selling them just doesn't exist. I never think like, Oh, I could get my money back out of them. I mean, I tell Ashley that. So like, she justifies it. But like in my real, like in my heart of hearts, I'm not going, Oh, yeah, I'm going to sell this one day and make money. Yeah, I don't know. I only have lost money on daily drivers. I think every other car made money back on. Yeah, I think it was just because for me, I like made such shit money my entire life until the last like 10 years or so, maybe less five, six, seven, I don't know. But I was always like punching above my weight class with cars. Like I worked at SK speed, making 825 an hour and I had a 05 STI. That was cool. You know, and so because it was always like, I would just like trade my way up and stuff. So I think that just like stuck with me in that if you want to continue to have cool stuff, like you got to get rid of shit. Like you got to like, you got to like get to a point and then like cut it off and move on. Yeah, I think I went to for me, I got this car. It's such a good deal. And I didn't know they were going to explode. I didn't know that the entire 9 11 market was going to shift and it was going to become like this icon of cool. But now like I love it so much, but I wouldn't I would never be able to spend what it was worth, what it's worth to buy it now. And it's actually ruined the car for me because I would drive it way more. I would I would drive it way more, but it's now so irreplaceable because of what it would call it. See, this is this is what I have in short. I always counter argue that because your car is the perfect car to drive and enjoy. If you have it properly insured, this car can get ran over by a fucking dump truck. And then you could rebuild it and it doesn't matter because it's already had the roof cut off. It's already been fully repainted. All the panels have been cut. Nothing is original. So like you're not saving it from anything. Right. Like the person who wants this car doesn't care. Yeah, or you like the originality is gone because some of the guys like I always said I don't really like and why I kind of hated my GT3 RS in some ways is because it's like pure, you know, like if you if someone crashes into it now it's like now your whole side of the car is repainted. It's a whole thing like this is already fucked with like you should drive this thing. Mine's already been molested. Like it doesn't matter. It's already got childhood trauma. That should be freedom, you know, like you like my 360 I just got it repainted. Dude, I was following you on the freeway for the shot and I was like one inch off your bumper and I'm like I don't give a fuck about this paint job. I don't care about anything like it's all aftermarket. If it gets repainted again, like who cares? Yeah. So like I think that there's a lot of freedom in the RWB because that thing's so fucking cool. You should drive it every day. I know. It's so sick and ensuring it's not fun. No, yeah, insurance is crazy. What what they asked for. So I mean, look, and I realized these are these are like really nice problems. But you know what, you're you're that guy. So we'll wait until 9-Elevens are no longer cool. And then it'll drop down. Like, guys, I have great news. My 9-Elevens only worth 40 grand. I'm going to street drive it and park it in front of my house every day. Because it's not even the value. It's just going to be guys. Guess what? 9-Elevens are fucking lame. Like universally known. They are the rappers are saying they are the Planiac Aztec. And all of a sudden you're like, I love this car so much. You have it as your fucking your MySpace background and like you have a shirt with it on it and stuff like you'll be so into it once everyone else thinks it's lame. Fuck, I wish you were wrong. Anyway, on that note, I did bring a really special car here for your Patreon page. We'll do a little walk around on it. So I wanted to ask you a question before, but I wanted to let Tim talk a little bit more. So your your original 9-Eleven, which was an SC, right? What year was that? 80. Your Volkswagen Golf, which is a VR6 is faster than the SC. What car is a better experience? Easy 9-Eleven. Even though it was slower. Yeah. Yeah. The GTI is is weird to me. And I think about this all the time when I'm driving it. It's really cool for nostalgia, but it's not that good. And I don't know if it's like honestly, just the interior ergonomics like the seats, it's high, the shift really low. Like it's a little bizarre. Solid rear axle sucks. I don't know. Just something about it. Like I love the GTI. It's cool. That's a car I'll never sell because it's not really worth shit. But I don't know. The 9-Eleven felt more fun. I only asked that because before you were just talking about how like the older 9-Elevens aren't fun. And a lot of the reason they're not fun is because they just have like no power. No. Oh, see, I meant to I meant to say on that, like, I actually don't care about the power. I just felt stock ones. They just felt like sloppy and bodie and like, they just didn't feel like they didn't ooze personality. It just felt like a thing. And mine was like in good shape too. But I was like, you know, I wonder if like we're now rounding to the end of this episode and hopefully it makes sense to people. But like, I was trying to think while you guys are talking about like, what are my three favorite things about the 9-Eleven? Not just Porsches, because like Porsches, like a 944 different experience, like of 9-Elevens is that I realized so much of it is ergonomic. So much of it is the driver position in the car. Yeah, I was going to say, like if I had to list out their three best things, it's like driver perspective and ergonomics, exterior aesthetics, and just driving experience. Like, yeah, I don't care who you are. Like, you can't say you don't like 9-Elevens because of the way they look at all. Like you park a fucking 9-Eleven in your driveway and you just look at it. It's beautiful. They're pretty awesome. From a bullshit base model all the way up to the top. Like they're sick. Yep. Even a 996 when you're looking at it from behind. I love a 996 C2. Yeah, I'll take a 99 with drive by wire and a factory limited slip. I mean, drive by cable and factory limited slip all day. I don't give a shit. They're sick. The turbos look really good. The turbos are super nice. Yeah, they look really good. For me, it's the glass house. I mentioned this before. There's something about just how small the A-pillar is, especially in an air cooler. It just feels like it's not there. I've never been in a car that feels as small inside, which makes it feel like a cockpit. People joke about how small my rabbit is. My rabbit feels spacious. It's like being inside of a box. This thing just feels like it's all about me and just that. I've never felt steering the way a 911 steers. You want to call it turn in or whatever it is, but just the way that that grips under braking, that just feels really unique. The last one, which is like, I think, look, they just drive great. There's a point and shoot element to them. If you're okay with the car sliding a little bit, you just steer where you need to go. Right. But the other part of it to me is it may just be a mental thing, but there's something about being like the engine feeling like it's pushing from behind. I can't explain it because the front gets light under acceleration in a way that a normal car doesn't, that the term scoot really applies to a 911. When people are like, oh, it's a 911 fast, I'm like, it fucking scoops. It does scoot. It like, it puts the butt under. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it just, like it's a big thrust from behind and it's like, there it pushes power like a dog scraping its butt on grass. Yeah. Yeah. It does. And it's something that just, I don't know, it just makes it, it makes it special. I will say other things in the shape. Other thing that's really cool about Porsche, at least in the GT car world, I don't really care that much about like the base Carreras as we get newer because they just become like luxury cars. But in the GT car world from 996 to 992, they didn't really get that fat. Like they got heavier because you got technology, but they're not really like an M2 or an M3 we could talk about. M3 went from being, you know, 3,000 pounds to 40, some 4500 pounds. The current M3 is the size of my SE. Yeah. Whereas like the 911 got big, but they still kept it pretty light. You know, like them and Subaru, because like the STI made 300 horsepower out of a four cylinder turbo from 04 till now or whenever they killed it. And then like the 911, the GT3 is like the same. It's like NA, flat six, barely gained weight over the years, like just got bigger. Like I respect that. That's cool that Porsche did that. I would admit, like I'm a little bit of a hater on how big the car has got. Yeah. Because I just feel like there's something about a small car footprint that makes it more fun on roads to take up less of the road. Yes. My friend, Nikita and I were like driving through canyons. We did a couple tight canyons. He had a 992 manual and he was like, he's like, dude, I can't even drive this car on this road so big. But if you get inside of it, you'll still feel like your 964. Like it still feels like tight and intimate and like, but not in a claustrophobic way. It still feels like small and like proper on the inside. It's just everything on the outside got like. So let's end on this because I think we've talked about why we love 9-Elevens. We've kind of shit talked people who've got into them just for the trendiness of it. But I think we were generally kind. Why do you think 9-Elevens became so cool? Like what do you think it is that attracts everybody else to? I think it's the general coolness that we all looked at already. So it's from Magnus to Luft, RWB, like it's the trifecta of things being cool. And then people being, the thing is that it's based on undeniable cool. But do you think this could have happened to any other mark? No, no, no. That's what I was saying. Like it's, it's the base is undeniable cool. The 9-Eleven was cool. And then it was amplified into the mainstream. It's not like saying, you know, the, the Scion FRS is now cool. It's like, well, that's only based on like, if influencers tell you it's cool, which means nothing. But like the 9-Eleven had racing pedigree, it had everything. And then it was like brought to the mainstream attention of like, oh, this is actually sick. And it's beautiful. And it's fun to drive. And it looks good. But you know, it's like, I feel like it's like the trickle down. No, I just think it's interesting thing of like, I don't know if any other mark could have become what Porsche has become in the past 15 years. And look, I'm not going to say that there hasn't always been a cool around Porsche. There was a hyper cool around Porsches in the 70s. But a lot of people don't realize the reason the 944 came out is because in the 80s to the Wall Street crowd, the 9-Eleven felt old and was your dad's car. Like they already lost cool. And honestly, they didn't really gain it back. I think until the Magnus Walker singer RWB era, like not saying that it wasn't cool. There's obviously a ton of motorsports history throughout the 90s. And I think to that core, like motorsports fan, who's listening to this, like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Porsche has always been peak. Right. But when you look at it from a cultural reference, like, yeah, you had bad boys, like bad boys made a night like that was like 9-Eleven Turbo really cool. And that would be right, the original one. And there was other elements of it. But I think now it's like, it's such a part of culture that it has like well transcended us. Yeah, like it is well beyond us. And like every cool person, you know, either has one or knows of one, you don't have to be a car guy to be into them. They're part of fashion. You and I are both into architecture. How often do you see a photo of a house and there's a vintage 9-Eleven in the driveway? My SC just got a job. It was used for placement in an ad for this beautiful mid-century home in Pasadena. Yeah. Like, I mean, and I think that those fit there because those cars, I think that's the aesthetic element of it. Yeah. Like if the 9-Eleven looked different, I don't maybe it wouldn't land as well. If the 9-Eleven was the 944, I don't think people would. Which is funny because like it pairs with mid-century so well, but it's not mid-century at all. No. I mean, 60s. 60s. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like the cars they're using aren't all 60s, 9-Eleven E's or 9-12s or like. Yeah, like long noses, canary yellow. So they'll be using like 80s cars like mine and you're like. But I think that's because it stayed the same. Is such a thing about minimalistic design and the 9-Eleven is a minimalistic silhouette. Yeah. Right. It's true. If you think about what makes like, what was the Ferrari or the Lamborghini you were talking about earlier? Some crazy new Lambo. Oh, the thing. Yeah, whatever. Some new McLaren or whatever. Like they are pushed to the extreme. Yeah. Like they look absolutely extreme. Yeah. Even our 360s look pretty crazy in comparison to like a 9-Eleven. Yeah. 9-Eleven just like simple silhouette. It's the Eames chair, of course. This is now like the third time I've Eames dropped on this show. People who know know. Yeah. I mean, and I'm like, by the way, I'm saying Eames because I want more people to understand. If you're sitting there going, that is so pedestrian of me. We only have one Eames chair in the house. The rest of them, you wouldn't know the design of Scandinavia. But that's the thing though, is like, I think the 9-Eleven is like the Eames chair because honestly, Eames chair was really cool a couple years ago and now you like see them in everyone's houses, even if they live in like a stucco box. Right. That's not. They've got like a Spanish revival and they have an Eames chair. Yeah. And you're like, that doesn't make sense here. And it's like, that's why the 9-Eleven doesn't make sense in a lot of people's garages. It's like, you don't fit the mold to have this, but you bought it because you know it's cool. That's the Eames chair. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. That's it. The 9-Eleven is the Eames chair of the automotive community. It took us about two hours. We've landed here. The 9-Eleven is the Eames chair. And do you know what that means? The pod is over baby. The pod's over, but the Eames chair is still comfortable. The 9-Eleven is still a fantastic car, whether or not you think it is trending out. And if you'd like to listen to more about rail car, I'll talk about it on the podcast. I support that statement. Hey, look, it's okay if you don't actually wrench on cars. You don't need to feel left out. You can still have Viper industrial in your life. For example, pick up a creeper, use it for covert naps, got a problem with all the clothes on the floor. They're robust stool makes the perfect chair drove. It's also really good for downhill racing. Got guests coming over tonight. 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