Charlotte Gainsbourg

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Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis Charlotte Gainsbourg.

1:23

Thank you for having me.

1:34

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

1:37

I like the color. And then I wanted to make a bit of an effort. I don't usually make an effort if I don't have a purpose. So it was an excuse I like. If not, I'm always in jeans and tennis shoes. So this is Saint Laurent. And I like. I like what Anthony does. Some full Saint Laurent. Even my tights. Really? Not my bra, but I could not have one. And not my watch.

1:42

It's very nice, I must say. The leather is so soft.

2:24

And it is.

2:29

There's something about Saint Laurent that I used to know Lulu de la Follaise way back. And it's just so chic. But it's radical and never kind of bourgeois.

2:31

It's.

2:48

I mean, it is too, but I love bourgeois. I find that quite, you know, subvertible. And I always think of you as very good at subverting things.

2:49

I don't feel that I go in that. In that bourgeoisie, but I love French bourgeois. I think they're the best.

3:01

Yeah.

3:16

I mean, I have. Catherine Deneuve is for me the. The example. So, yeah, there's something that's so obviously desirable about Saint Laurent. The story. But not only. And I think Anthony makes. Made it his own with also just being very truthful to the. To what it was and yeah. The past of the brand.

3:18

It's beautiful. I love what he does. It's. It's fantastic and very cinematic and I.

3:53

It is.

3:59

I love his involvement with cinema and it's so. It's really believable.

3:59

It's.

4:05

It just feels very adventurous and I.

4:06

Think very genuine in what he. He approaches. Yes. Films and directors he admires and, and helping some films being made. So it's a real. It's becoming a real thing.

4:11

Yeah. I love the people he chooses like Abel Farrar and Gaspar Noe. You know, people who are really glamorous as well as great filmmakers and David Cronenberg and.

4:32

Yeah. Always a bit scandalous, which is great.

4:46

Yes, that's such a good word. I love that.

4:49

Yeah.

4:54

And you're a highly successful, award winning actress and singer and you're also the daughter of Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg, two extremely successful people. And you've always had this independent identity of your own. And were you conscious of how important it was not to get smothered by their identities?

4:57

I think I was very lucky to start working very early so that I didn't have to really understand or grasp how big they were and how talented even though I knew it. But I started films and I just did my own thing. But. And they authorized this. They let me just set off on film sets and they weren't worried. I think my mother really understood that I needed to exactly that to make my own journey. Because I was about to sing this first song with my father called Lemon Incest and. And she. She thought that it would be good for me not to have only that. So as soon as a film presented itself, I went and did a casting and. And was. It was a small part that I was chosen and that was the beginning. So thank God for that. It's true that I didn't have then. I had all the challenges afterwards of understanding and putting them on a pedestal and, and being very aware. But a little later when I had already started.

5:21

It's a very kind of perceptive bit of mothering that she did. I mean, contraintuitive. But actually it sounded like it was a very stabilizing thing.

6:50

Yeah. And I think in those days. Well, I mean, I don't know. She wasn't worried at all.

7:02

She.

7:09

She knew that. She took me on film sets and always said how wonderful it was, what a world. And to be cherished like that by a film Crew and it was always a magical portrait. So I think she wasn't scared at all about. You know, you hear about kids starting too early and ending up doing drugs and having a very hard time. I went through this with no problem. No problem at all.

7:10

Because you said about your father, Serge Gainsbourg was shy and self conscious. And you said he had two personalities. And did you ever dare criticize him? And were you ever afraid of losing his love?

7:50

I wrote a song exactly about that, but that's not done yet. No. Because I was a furious adolescent with him and I was not scared at all of losing his love because I knew he loved me above everything. Today I would be much more. More. You know, I'd be scared of what I could break. But no, no. At the time I was fistful and very embarrassed by him when he was drunk or it was. It was a pain. And I just let him know as much as I could. But I knew who he was on the side of those moments. And I knew also that it was a despair. So I made it very tough for him. But I hope I had a bit of comprehension. And. And so, yes, on the side, I had all these wonderful moments with him. And everything my mother always described of her time with him was so much of that sensibility and. His real Persona. M. But still she left because he was too. Too drunk.

8:07

Yeah.

9:59

Gosh.

10:01

Cuz I identify a lot with, you know, the close relationship with the father, because I had that. But I. I never grew up with my father, so the idea of criticizing him would be so frightening.

10:02

Too much.

10:21

I was too afraid to lose. So. But I read that you'd said that you'd tell him to stop drinking, you'd be cross with him. And I thought that was so wonderful. You know, that's such a loving thing.

10:23

But it's also because at the time, my sister Kate was struggling very much with drugs and she had gone through clouds, I think.

10:38

Oh yeah.

10:50

And it was the solution she found. And it was incredibly helpful for a long time for her. So she did give that message that we had to make him stop. Yeah. So it was sort of the. The goal for both of us. But I didn't really live with him. I left. I lived from zero to nine. And then when my mother left, I. I went with my sister and my mother, so I would only see him over the weekends. Yeah, but you.

10:52

You made. You did you recorded lemon incest when you were 12?

11:35

Was it 12? But then when I. I say this and then I look at the dates and they Don't. I think I. It came out when I was maybe 13.

11:39

Yeah.

11:49

Yeah.

11:49

It's an amazing song.

11:51

I mean, I adore it.

11:53

Yeah.

11:55

Because I can hear the love that's. I mean, it's stupid to say this, but a very obvious. And the fact that he left. All the little mistakes that I made and he. He told me so once when we recorded was that he wasn't interested in a perfect singing, that he liked accidents. And so I got a little glimpse of his way of working and what he was looking for, and then just being very truthful with what we were both saying. Yeah, yeah.

11:56

Yeah. It's very palpable and like an education. And then I suppose I was so struck by the feeling of love between you and the taboo nature of the title, and yet how you're so firmly on the right side of that.

12:45

I think so then I do understand. People were very shocked and still are. And I heard someone, a lady, say, well, over the radio that how could we dance on such. Speaking those words? And so I do understand. But I like the fact that you. You have to shock in a certain. I mean, it's very necessary. So I. I've always. I've had the possibility to shock through other people. So through. Thanks to my father. Thanks to. I very often put them side by side, even though they don't have a lot in common. But Lars von Trier was.

13:06

Yeah.

13:51

He's a director that I worship, and I was able to transgress a lot thanks to him.

13:52

Yeah.

14:02

So I think it's necessary.

14:03

It's. You're very good at it. It's very elegantly done. I mean.

14:04

But maybe it's because I hear. I've heard this a lot, that actors are often very shy. And in French you say complexe, but it's not complex, it's.

14:11

Awkward.

14:26

Or, you know, just with a lot of incapacities.

14:26

Yeah.

14:31

So as soon as there's a daughter, be able to have an excuse to. Again, an excuse to just be bold. That's the only thing I. I really want.

14:33

Yeah.

14:49

It's very.

14:49

I mean, because you're sort of famously shy or you have been.

14:51

I have been. I think I. I'm less. But I'm quiet. And people often misinterpret the quietness, which is a fake quietness because I'm not inside, but that quietness with shyness.

14:57

Yeah. So you said this great thing. You said, I'm. I'm not. I'm not modest, I'm just shy. And it's such a good point. To make. And you're, you know, in your films, you do these incredible things. And I mean, my favorite is nymphomaniac. I mean, I just thought it was brilliant. And you were so, so good. And you've described yourself sometimes as being quite masochistic. And I wondered if you had different standards of what you can tolerate compared to what you would expect from other people.

15:12

Well, last, on the first film, I did Antichrist, he sort of asked me if I. He didn't ask me if I had limits, but he would push. And until I realized that I did have a limit. And that was. He asked me to being the same. I mean, I was doing a scene with Willem Dafoe, and at one point it was a porn actor that came in because we had to see his sex. So he asked me if it was okay if I was there. And at first I said, yeah, sure, I don't mind. But then it became a different film. And so I said, well, in fact, I can't do this. So, yeah, that's my limit. And it was great to know that I did have a limit. I'm not. So the masochism is. It operates in a very. Not in a very extreme way because it's a film. So there's something that's. That I. There's a wanting and there's. But I tolerate. And you know that it can end whenever you say stop.

16:00

Yeah.

17:22

Which means a lot because I was.

17:23

Thinking about when you went on your first film set when you were 12, I think, and you made the film in. In Canada, and you were away from your. You didn't have any contact with your parents and. No. I was wondering how did. Do you know that you hadn't been abandoned by them?

17:26

I don't think I cared. It was so thrilling to be away. I had my own hotel room.

17:56

Wow.

18:08

And because I think. Because I had the part of the older sister and then I had a younger brother in the film, I think he was really taken care of, and they were more preoccupied by him than me. And it was just a few days. It wasn't like a very long shoot, and I was busy shooting. So it's not as if I was just left on my own. And that was with Catherine Deneuve, really, and she was playing my mother. So I'm sure also maybe for my parents, they knew that they had a friend that was there not looking after me at all, but still she was there. And then I went straight from that shoot in Montreal to New York, where I. I was to sing Lemon Incest that same summer. So it was really doing both. I think it was the year I turned 13.

18:09

Yeah.

19:17

So. Yeah, it's.

19:18

There's something about being treated as though you're capable of responsibility when you're that age. And. Yeah, and it's very grounding and it's the opposite of sort of planting seeds of self destruction. I remember my father taking me to this drinking club called Muriel's. I think I was 14 or 13, offering me a drink and a cigarette. And I felt great and not wayward and not rebellious. And the ways that I was acting out at school and it was sobering in a strange way. And I appreciated that, you know, that I could handle myself. And it sounds. It's not the fashion to be like that with one's children.

19:21

No, it's true. But yes, I do remember something struck me even today when I think about what my mother. How confident she made me with the acting, but also with like driving. She always used to say the worst about herself. So she was the. Which is true. She was the worst driver. But she made me drive. And I think I was just not everything happened when I was 12, close. And I drove on the autoroute on the really highway. And she just trusted me more than she did her.

20:19

Yeah.

21:13

Yeah. And my father, that was not the. The best thing. But today I. I find it very endearing. He. I was 19 and I was in a great depression and was about to live with him. But that was just a few days before he died and he. So I. I went to. Back in his house and. And he had set up everything for me in this little room that was first my mom's and then it became the doll room with horrible dolls, antique dolls. So scary.

21:13

Yeah. Sinister look.

21:58

But he had arranged the. My bed and. And then he put a pack of cigarettes and an ashtray and matches and a box of lixomile, which is tranquilizers. It was all done in very, very sweet gesture. So that's the way he was.

22:01

Yeah. It's very tender, isn't it?

22:26

Yeah.

22:29

And what was the first piece of clothing you became obsessed with as a child?

22:31

I think it was very. With no hesitation. My mother's genes. Because I wanted to be her, really. There's no question. Of course I wanted to be her. And I was so far also. It was a time where I had a bit of bosom and my shapes. I was different. And she made me feel as if. It was as if I was beautiful. But I hated myself for so long. Really. Really. Then I Now I don't care as much, so it's not as important. And it's part of who I am today. Even the fact that I don't like what I look like, I'm fine. But at the time. So I tried her jeans and they didn't fit me the way they did her. So jeans are still an obsession today.

22:38

Yeah. What are you looking for in a jean?

23:53

I think the right color, the mix of color. Nothing would be better than to have the denim to go from raw denim to a used denim, but done naturally.

23:59

Yeah.

24:24

And then I haven't found the. The ideal pair because I don't have the ideal. I'm looking for my body through that search, and I haven't found it yet. So I think I look at women that I've fantasized about, and they're very different. I can see my mother, of course, in mostly the 70s when she wore those jeans. But no, she wore two different kind. But there was one kind in the 70s, of course, a bit flair, but they were so authentic. But then in Je Tai Mont plus, which is my father's film that he did with her, it's a very different fit and it's so incredibly beautiful on her. But she had really. She had hips. I don't.

24:28

Yeah.

25:41

So I'm built as a guy and she was. So the fit on her was very feminine and so very beautiful. And then I go from her to then Marilyn Monroe, and it's a completely different body.

25:41

Yeah.

26:00

But very. It's always. It always has to do with being attractive. Something very. It can be. Do you say androgenic?

26:01

Androgynous.

26:19

Androgynous. But it's either androgynous or very feminine. But there's something sexy about it. That's. I think that's the goal.

26:20

Yeah. Yeah.

26:35

So. Yeah. Long. Talk about jeans.

26:38

It's weird how the wrong one, though, can fill you with despair. I mean, I've had. I. I only really suit one pair and they're quite naff, but they suit me for some reason.

26:41

What is naff?

26:54

It's sort of. Not without. It's sort of. Not tacky, but sort of not. Rubbish, really.

26:55

But I just found a pair that's a bit. It's not vulgar, but it's just. It's not what you should wear today. It's a bit too low waist.

27:10

Yeah, that's exactly mine.

27:21

And. Yeah, that's. But they suit me really well.

27:25

Yeah. It's funny. I mean, it's interesting listening to you talk about, you know, turning against yourself as you change slightly. But. And, you know, thinking of how many girls and women would, you know, obsessed with your figure and your amazing legs and your. Your narrow hips and the way you are. I'm not sure I think a lot, I promise you.

27:32

I. I often have a lot of women of my age that come and say, oh, people say that I'm. I look like you, but in a. In the awkwardness. Not, you know, not in the. I feel, not in the beauty. Like. It's just that I was described in a script and I think it marked me in this. It was my first big part. It was called Les Frontiers and in English, the impudent girl.

28:03

Is that the one where she goes to different people's houses and they become obsessed with other men? There was one I saw anyway, when I was very young, I think in your 20s or. I can't tell, you always seem to look very young and.

28:39

No, but this one, I was 14, I think.

29:00

Oh, right, okay. Yeah.

29:02

And I was described as this adolescent girl, so sometimes pretty, sometimes ordinary.

29:04

Oh.

29:17

And I thought, okay, so that's me. And I focused, of course on the ordinary bit. But I can really relate to this, to having days where you're so ugly and days where you're quite nice and you have to always be prepared to dislike yourself. So I felt that people related to me in that aspect.

29:18

You would though, wouldn't you? Because I think I know exactly what you're talking about Because I have done it my entire life, probably a billion times worse. But I. Then I think if it's not too presumptuous for me to say that you forget how. With how much tenderness and sort of charm people see you and see all your beauty.

29:57

But charm is another thing that I was really aware of my parents. Charm.

30:34

Yeah.

30:39

On top of my mother's beauty, there was this thing of charm that you couldn't nail it. I mean, you could. It was so just her. Because we had tons of models, you know, trying. And very pretty ones, but just trying to look like her in a maybe a very obvious way. But the charm is missing some, you know. And my father always talked about him being so ugly and how much he struggled with the way he looked. And he never talked about his charm, but it's so obvious.

30:40

Yeah.

31:27

So maybe the charm not to their level, but maybe I could relate to that a bit. But to be super modest, that's the only thing I do ever.

31:29

Because you're French but with an English mother and your English accent is quite. There's a Sort of well spoken, like a posh 60s accent, almost like Julie Christie or somebody. And you're very articulate and your use of language is very succinct. And are you a different personality in any way in English than when you're speaking French?

31:45

I'm sure, I'm sure. I don't. The accent is fake. It's. I mean, I'm sure it's close to my family's accent, but for such a long time I had a very strong French accent. And then my uncle asked me to do a film with him called the Cement Garden. And in order to do that part, to play that part, I had to, I had to work on the accent. And I had a wonderful voice coach and she, she really made me work hard. And after that it was a question of continuing, but I had that base, but it still seemed like a fake base. So there's always a bit of fakeness with me, my English side. And I struggle a little bit because I want it to be authentic. But if I'm really truthful, I'm more French. And so when I speak French, yes, that's who I am.

32:14

Because when I first read that you'd said that, I was like, no, no, she's. What? She's one. She's ours.

33:42

You know, I wish.

33:50

And your English is so English in the way you, how you sing, you know, and that you don't Americanize it. And it's so good. It's.

33:52

Oh, I thought that was really not good.

34:04

Oh, no, it's fantastic. It's absolutely amazing. It's so full of singularity and it's so original and that you're not the best English singers.

34:06

Make it American.

34:19

Well, yeah, they do accept you. And this is. If you. As you're going to be English sometimes it's a great place. I just, it's because I've been listening to a lot. I mean, I really like your music and I've seen you play and I've been listening to lots in preparation for you being here. And it's really, really. Every time I was just thinking, God, this is genius. This is. It's like it made me think again of you, you know, doing these things when you were very young. And that thing of somebody, for some reason I'm thinking like the Spartans, they used to put their babies on the side of a hill and if they survived, they'd take them back. And it's. There's a bit of that. This. Well, this is how I speak, so I'll do it. And in Nymphomaniac Your version of hey Jo is so good.

34:21

I did love doing it, and it was with Beck, so it made it very special for me. Yeah, I forgot about that song. But. But singing for me is really more of a fraud than films today. I feel as if I can not care, which is. I feel that's what everyone needs to not care. And with the singing, I'm not there yet because I'm still struggling with lyric writing. Trying to write in English, not being certain of the words I choose, and not writing my music. So I'm not where I'd like to be. And so there's still a part of me. Because I wrote the last album, I was less of a fraud because. Because I was saying what I wanted to say and because it was also very much motivated by my sister's death.

35:29

Yeah.

36:51

That was stronger than, you know, being good or not good enough or. So it made it possible that the album. The previous album with Beck, I was in admiration of his work, of his words. So I was trying too hard. And it. Trying too hard means that you're. You lose some sincerity, some natural. Yeah. Again, this thing of not caring too much.

36:52

But there's something to be said for caring a lot. And, you know, listening to you say it's a fraud, I'm thinking, well, that's. Seems to have something going for it because it's good. And it's so weird, the roots, how one can get somewhere and.

37:39

Yeah, but it's this thing of. I've heard it many times, of the imposter syndrome. And there was this wonderful French actor who used to say this all the time. He died not a long time ago. I forgot. He's in.

38:05

What's he in?

38:28

I'm not going to sing the song. I have to find it.

38:32

Can't you sing a tiny well.

38:38

Yeah. It's you.

38:40

Yes, yes.

38:44

Sit. Guy in family.

38:47

He's the. Yeah.

38:48

Yeah. So he's, of course, the wonderful actor. Oh. Jean Louis Trant. Jean Louis Tr. Oh. He really embraced this. This thing of being an impostor. And he was all about charm.

38:53

Yeah. But maybe it's. Being an imposter is occasionally the, you know, the magic carpet that you step on to get to the next place. And. And it's actually not being an imposter. It's just part of a. Getting from A to B over a tricky patch.

39:09

And I think as long as you're fine with it, I. It took me a very long time not being embarrassed or wanting to hide it. Now I think I'M at a point where it doesn't matter.

39:30

Yeah.

39:49

I'm fine with being only what I am. It's okay.

39:50

How did you feel about having so much of your father's attention? Was there ever any sense of rivalry between you and your mother?

39:57

Oh, yeah, I think so. I wasn't really conscious of it, but. I know that in a certain way she was out of his private life. In 1980, when I was nine, and. And I think I had this second part of my childhood. With my stepmother, who was incredible, and my father. And it's something that I didn't share with her, but she. She did have all the. The work that went on until the end, until he died. And then afterwards she took him everywhere because she sang his songs until her end. Yeah. So I think today I. The thing I'm the most embarrassed and about and guilty about is having not shared my father with my sister, with Kate, my older sister, because she did live 13 years with him. And then not then, she went to her own father, John Barry. And I think my father was jealous.

40:07

Right.

42:06

And so it made everything so complicated. But I never questioned, and I felt so guilty much later on, but thinking I went to my father's house over the weekend and. And was this, you know, the only child. And he took me everywhere and we went to the restaurant and did all these special things, being so spoiled. And I never once said, why isn't Kate here? I think I was so happy. Yeah. That. In a very selfish, childlike way. Yeah. That's something I'm a bit ashamed of today.

42:07

I suppose someone would say that wasn't your responsibility, but.

43:05

Sure.

43:10

It's still. I. I completely get it, but it's.

43:12

Yeah, because I think if it was the other way around, I think my sister would have said something.

43:15

Yeah.

43:20

Because she was much more generous. Much, much more. She liked people.

43:21

But it's difficult when you're a child and you have a father who is. Their love isn't always available. Not to go. You know, just to take what you can get. And it does make you strong in some way that is especially for you. But it's hard, isn't it?

43:33

Yeah. But also, I have to remember, I mean, she had such a tough time that she went into drugs and it was a very painful route. So she. She had a tough, tough adolescence, which I couldn't really relate to.

44:00

Yeah.

44:21

I was too young. Yeah.

44:21

Because when you were talking about working and loving to work with Lars von Trier, you said, I could see that he was in a bad state and That I had a reaction to his anxiety, feeling very, very normal and secure with who I was. And you seemed to be at home in the eye of the storm and what you described with your father in that way, maybe that. Do you think that gave you that certainty about how to cope with this powerful man who's sort of disintegrating.

44:25

Loss, you mean?

45:09

Yeah, yeah.

45:10

I was very scared that he would let go of the film, and I wasn't. I wanted to do the film with him, not without him. And he was always saying, well, maybe I won't make it, not dying, but maybe I'll. I won't be able to come on set and you'll just have to deal with it. So I was scared about that. But. But the violence, the storm, the depression, all of that, the anxiety, I couldn't relate to. So I had to really fake it, imitating him, because I hadn't had that at the time since I. Maybe I've. Yeah, I think I've. I've gone there. I've been there, but. So that was very strange to. To try and observe him as much as I could. And he was very willing to share everything he was feeling and very open about his sickness. But, yes, more of a sickness than a sadness. But I realized that I'm not sure I know how to. How to cope with normality and when things are right. And I find it easier to. To know how to swim in deep waters.

45:15

Yeah. Yeah.

47:25

And then suddenly you keep saying. I kept seeing. Saying, you know, I want to escape from Paris. I'm fed up. I'm. I'm drowning. But then being in another environment where everything's okay, you're. So, now what do you do?

47:27

Because he said such an interesting thing about him. You said, for. For me, I was playing him in the sense that his vulnerability was what he was asking me to portray. And I had the impression that he was showing his fear of women and also putting women on a pedestal.

47:52

Yes.

48:09

And you seem very at home on that tightrope between men loving and hating women. And do you.

48:10

Yeah, because I was asked. Yeah. I was asked that question of. Is he a misogynistic man? Yeah. Does he hate women? But I thought I was playing him. So it made no difference, this woman man. And if there was a lot of hatred, it was also against him. So, yeah, it didn't make sense anyway to. To talk of him as a misogynistic person. But then maybe I didn't want to go far into that prospect because maybe I wouldn't be comfortable There. I don't know.

48:22

People are rarely all one thing anyway. And a lot of one thing often suggests the opposite, doesn't it?

49:16

Yeah, yeah.

49:25

But so kind of intelligent of you to spot that and go with that rather, you know, and to imagine playing him was such a. I was very intrigued by you saying that, but I.

49:27

Often feel that the. And that's why I keep going back to my father when I think of Lars, because my mother always told me that, and you can read it, but that my father wrote his lyrics talking about himself and made my mother sing them. So she was singing his voice. So there was a real link for me there.

49:47

Yeah, yeah. Because you also did sang one of your songs where you dueted with him, but you sing his part as well. And I wondered what it felt like to. To be him.

50:20

Was it on. On tour? Right.

50:37

I think so. You were talking about reprising one of the duets.

50:40

I think it was lemon incest again.

50:47

Right, right.

50:49

Yeah. And I couldn't help but hearing him. So it was very moving to take his voice. And then people have imitated him a lot. So I was always scared that I would end up imitating him or in any case, his wording.

50:49

Yeah, it's a good idea, I think. I remember going to this, doing this sort of therapeutic week once and one of the exercises was to sit next to your B12 and sit next to your parent who was also 12. And I just started making stuff up. But it felt so outrageous to have, you know, to think anything or to put words in his mouth. But it was actually quite interesting.

51:25

But you had to put yourself in a 12 year old in your 12 year old.

52:07

Yeah, well, I had to be 12 sitting next to him. Being 12.

52:14

How funny.

52:18

And I for some reason was sitting on the harbor and he was sitting next to me and our legs were dangling over. God knows. I didn't really know much about his childhood because he didn't talk a lot. He'd said this thing once about running away and joining the Navy when he was a teenager. And then the ship in front being bombed and all the body parts falling onto his ship.

52:19

What?

52:52

I know. So heavy. And then he managed to get. He got himself smuggled onto the ship and then he got himself smuggled off. But I.

52:53

And so away from his parents, of course.

53:05

Yeah. And. But I, I. You know, when you described singing your father's part, I imagine something kind of sort of binding him to you in some way, which was.

53:08

Yeah, my father always did talk a lot about his childhood.

53:28

Really?

53:32

Yeah. Because it was during the war and Exactly. I think 11, 12 and up to 15, 16 and hiding and. But they always. All my family on his side escaping and it. They never talked about it in a dramatic way. It was always nearly fun.

53:33

Yeah.

54:04

And he was off in the forest one night and terrified. But talking about it with. It was so exciting. There was something but. So I would never be able to put my teenage years next to his because the comparison is so. Is so weak on my part.

54:05

But it's surprising what. What you come out with when you just have to. It's like being in a skit or something and then these things come out and they're. You know, they're not. You know. In the end I invented them but it did something I didn't. It was really unexpected. And you talked about not having self confidence and about that changing. And I wondered if there are certain clothes that make you feel better if you're feeling low.

54:38

It's true that this confidence thing is such a big deal for me because I remember being so strong and. And faithful and not. You don't say fierceful. You said. You say fearful.

55:19

Fearful.

55:34

Fearful.

55:35

Yeah. Fierceful is almost what you're going towards of feeling fierce.

55:36

Yeah. And I really think from tiny age until maybe 10, 9, 10 I had no problem. I was. Very daring and well, in fact I had terrible nightmares. So maybe not that. Not that strong. But what I remember of me is being very confident and so I'm always looking for that. Lost confidence through clothes. Maybe a coat.

55:42

It's interesting you say a coat so covering. Because I think what I love how you use your legs and you wear these short skirts and you have these fantastic legs and.

56:48

I don't think so.

57:05

Oh my God, you have no idea. Your legs are literally coveted by women around the world.

57:06

Heels help. I was always longing for those legs with little calves and tiny ankles. My grandmother used to say that was the real delicatessen was small ankles and I have huge ankles and big calves like a footballer. And so with heels it of course it helps and the muscles are. They're good to have. But in any case. So I can't wear flat shoes if you. If you.

57:15

According to those rules.

57:53

But yeah.

57:55

Well, I like how you. The way you use your clothes and there's a sort of soldiery thing that you do with your elegance and.

57:57

But it's because I don't have. And I was never able to embrace any. Any femininity. Feminity. Feminity or femininity?

58:17

Femininity.

58:29

Femininity. I Had to. I had to be more of a boy. So I. I couldn't take poses of what I like to see. You know, I love looking at women in skirts and very feminine and.

58:30

You.

59:01

Know, taking care of the way that they took poses. I have to be more straightforward. There's something that's. And. And so I. I don't care. Again, I. It's. It's good for me not to care and to. There's. I don't have many possibilities. And I love the uniform. I love the. Yeah. That. Not always soldier like, but something that you. That gives you the posture.

59:02

Yeah, yeah.

59:53

And then you play around it maybe.

59:54

Yeah. It's a good. It's good. Something to do with courage, really, isn't it? That kind of gets you out of the door and.

59:57

But I know that now I've said this. It's not the first time I think about it, but my sister became a photographer and she used me as a model early when she was starting and made me wear couture clothes.

1:00:05

Really?

1:00:28

Yeah. And I wasn't. I really wasn't into fashion at all and taking poses, but in. In Brittany, in bitter cold. And it was always extreme. There was something. Yeah. Extreme about those photo shoots, which meant that I didn't have the time to be embarrassed or it was just do it quickly and having so much fun with her that she made me. Play with my body, play with makeup that I. I was never able to do that when I should have done it as a teenager. I did it so late, and so I didn't explore anything about myself when I should have done that. The only exploration was through films and costumes that I had to wear inside a film.

1:00:29

Yeah.

1:01:40

Not for myself, because you have this.

1:01:41

Great hair, this messy, sexy hair. And I wondered.

1:01:44

Can I say I hate it?

1:01:48

Of course you're gonna say that. Everything I love about you, you say, oh, I hate it, but it's really great. And I wondered if you ever brush it or it just goes like that and I can't.

1:01:50

There's nothing to brush. The thing is, as soon as I try and be neat, it doesn't suit me.

1:02:04

Yeah.

1:02:12

So if it's. It has to be a bit messy, but then when it's too messy, it's ugly. So the balance it takes. It would take too much effort to study. And so I. Like, I had all these white hairs and coming to London, I didn't know anyone that could help, so I just didn't look at myself for weeks. And then I had to go back to Paris to Do the. The defile. The fashion show of Saint Laurent. And I. I was in a panic. But then I thought, ah. So I. I went through three weeks of really not looking at myself. And it was great. It was great. And you can. I mean, so the messiness, I couldn't care less.

1:02:13

And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?

1:03:18

No. And I realized that I'm not a good observer because I just look at the face and I can't remember what people were wearing. That's also something I really am ashamed of because having spent so many years looking at myself because I was unhappy and, you know, not liking who I was, it took such. Such a long time. What a waste of time. And it was also a big waste of time not looking at other people. So, of course I. Hopefully I have observed to play parts that are not only me. But I wish I had opened my eyes a bit sooner. And I guess when my sister died, I realized who she was, really, I knew who she was. But the realm of her generosity, the time she took for other people, was a real gift to have her in your life. And so I understood that. And then I left for New York to escape the sadness and the weight. And being in New York, nobody recognized me, so I was able to look at people and to talk. And suddenly I saw this part of me that I didn't know. And it was a real breath of fresh air. But I can't remember what we were talking about at the beginning. Yeah.

1:03:25

That's so interesting, though. I asked you if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing.

1:05:32

Yeah, no, but so.

1:05:41

But that makes.

1:05:44

No, really not. But as I said, I. I don't. I, I. Without looking at you, I see your face and I see your tie.

1:05:45

Yeah.

1:05:58

And your shirt. But that's it. So I. I only focus on here.

1:05:59

That makes.

1:06:07

There's a lot going on here. Yes.

1:06:08

And I made a jumper about 20 years ago, probably as an homage to your mother, with Je Taim Jane embroidered on it, because I had made a jumper that said Ginsburg is God. And then I got a message, I think maybe from her agent, saying, Jane Birkin would like one of your Gansborg is God jumpers. And I thought, what am I going to do? I can't just say everyone's God. And then I kind of. I thought I went into. I sort of went inside myself and thought of how at school we had these wooden desks, and I'd write Love messages to people. And I thought, okay, so this is Jataim Jane. And the Jane was in a kind of embroidered thing. And then I tried to send her a jumper or a couple of jumpers, and she actually left me a message on my answer machine saying I couldn't possibly wear a jumper saying I love me. And maybe my daughters. No. They couldn't possibly say no.

1:06:12

Yes.

1:07:28

And she was. She was so beautiful and seemed quite self effacing. And how did you handle that?

1:07:29

Well, the fact that she. She was so modest.

1:07:38

Yeah. But more than that. So sort of, you know, self. You know, there was no question that she could have any, you know, anything as kind of celebrate. I mean, I know that sounds a bit cheesy, but, you know, but she was so self.

1:07:43

You have, you have to help me on the self depre.

1:08:02

Yeah, self deprecating.

1:08:06

Yeah, deprecating. Since I was little. I can only remember that she said she was a bad actress, that she sang better in the end. I think it's completely not true. But I love the fact that she sang the way she. She was. And there's a charm also at the. In the beginning that. But she hated her accent. She. And she, she told us all the time. So that's also. That was part of my education was to think that you can't say that you're good at anything.

1:08:07

Yeah.

1:09:00

My father was not modest, but he sort of made it very clear that he knew that he was very good at what he did. But they were only pop songs. So he wasn't a real poet. He wasn't a real classical music writer. So in a way he was exactly like her. And it made it very difficult to believe in anything. You know, things had to happen, but you couldn't.

1:09:00

Look.

1:09:43

Look into you as an artist. Artist was sort of a banished word. So pretentious. Nobody was an artist. So I mean, I. I still hear my mother saying how ugly she was when she did all that makeup in the 60s and that all the girls looked the same. I understand what she was. She did say that she found herself later on with no makeup and the way the beauty she. She was, of course. But you can't say that she was ugly. I mean, how dare she was ugly in the 60s. I know.

1:09:43

Or ever.

1:10:36

I mean.

1:10:37

But it seems like a message that it's a training, you know, I mean, it's been.

1:10:39

Well, yeah. To be modest was really. They. I think they were so scared when I started with films and because.

1:10:46

The.

1:10:59

Film I did when I was 14, the impotent girl was a big success. I think they were terrified that I would become pretentious, or so they kept telling me, you know, you're here one day and the next you'll fall here. So don't. Don't think you've achieved anything. I'm glad they did because I do hate pretentious people. I think it's the worst thing. But then I'd love to be able to not be content, but just have some satisfaction.

1:11:00

Yeah.

1:11:45

That, you know, it does happen sometimes, but then it goes away really quickly.

1:11:46

Because your documentary that you made about your mother, Jane Harlot, just so interesting and wonderful. And she talks a lot about guilt. And you're so gentle and validating with her. And she talks about your sister Kate. And also she said this, which was so touching about her death when she dies, and then she did die after your film was made, saying that she wouldn't be there to comfort you when your. Anything happens to you. And was incredibly moving indeed. And you said, it's much clearer to you now how you love her. And I wondered what's clearer.

1:11:54

That I embrace all her mistakes, or not mistakes really, but the just finding a way through her life. It wasn't that she didn't have it easy.

1:12:57

Yeah.

1:13:21

So I think I acknowledged this so late and maybe doing the film. At first I started. The film started and I said I wanted to do a documentary on her. And did she accept? And she said, yes, but I think she thought that I was going to do a documentary about her professional life. And she felt trapped when I first interviewed her in Japan when we started, and. And she then said, okay, stop. I'm not doing this. It's. I hated it. And so I realized that she took it so personally. And maybe I was asking questions just to get answers or just maybe not to get answers, but for her to hear the question and to understand that that was all I needed, was just to ask the question.

1:13:22

Yeah.

1:14:29

And so I was doing the film for me as much as I was doing it for her. And so when she accepted to start again two years later, she was so generous with her answers. And because I was in a really bad state, she was trying to support me, trying to pull me and put me back on my legs. And. Yeah. Really very, very touching and moving. And. Yeah. And then I realized that she didn't know how much I loved her because I never told her, maybe, or she thought that. And that was doing interviews after the film was released. And she said that I was always talking about my father. That it was only about him because I. I lost him when I. I was 19. It was, of course, so devastating that my mother was still there. So why would I, you know, I. I don't know. And so that I'm so happy that I was able to make her understand how much I needed her, how much I loved her. But it came very late. Really, really late.

1:14:32

Well, it's great that you could. That it happened.

1:16:10

Yeah. Because she said, I wish I had done it with my mother. Really? Gosh.

1:16:13

Yeah.

1:16:19

I think she did have a long period of time with her mother, one to one, which was great because it was always to do with her father because he was sick and she loved taking care of him. And when he died, she shifted to her mother and had maybe 15 years or something like that with just her.

1:16:19

It's interesting that she allowed you to tell her in the end because it's quite difficult, especially with the mother. I found with my mother, to let them know you love them and they just keep you at an arm's length and it's, you know, it just messes up you. You think, oh, this is so simple. And then it doesn't seem to work and it all goes wrong. So.

1:16:48

And the whole. The fact that the touching was never easy, but I took it as something. I mean, I never hugged my father in those days. You. It wasn't part of what you did to hug, but there was something very intense in the fact that we would kiss a la russe on the mouth. Very, you know, nothing wrong with that. But it was so. The love was so there, that. No question. With my mother, there was something that became awkward, that became. That shifted. And in the end, I was really sad about thinking there was a time where you, you know, you blew my nose. And you. I was scruffy. And you. I was a part of you. I was. I was your skin. And why. Why does that go away? But in fact, with my own children, it's the same. So I tried to push it and force it, but there's an age where there's a barrier and I'm not sure. I don't know. The moment you feel awkward, it's. That's the end. You can't go back.

1:17:17

I suppose you can go through. Because there's something in the film as well where she says, I wish I'd. You know, I went out all the time and left you alone. And you said, and I knew. I mean, I think I knew what you were doing. You were saying, it's okay. You know, it's all right, we're here. You know, I'm.

1:19:08

Yeah.

1:19:38

And I really. I thought about that a lot. And I remember when my mother was dying, she died really fast, suddenly got diagnosed with cancer and died 10 days later.

1:19:38

Oh, God.

1:19:55

And she said, I wish I could have showed you more love.

1:19:56

And I. I wish what?

1:19:59

I wish I could have shown you more love. And I said, oh, but you did. But now she's dead, I think. I'm so glad you said that, because I felt like she loved me, but she didn't. Seemed to know how to show it and. Yeah, so that thing she said, and when you reassured your mother and said it, so, you know, it's normal, and it doesn't matter if it was normal or not, but somehow it was very. It was very such a lovely thing. And I was so struck by how you. You kind of took care of her in that. In that.

1:20:01

But because she was consumed by guilt and, I mean, she was also feeding off guilt.

1:20:47

Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:57

That was the way. I don't. I don't think it was the way she was brought up, but in any case, that was her way of dealing with things.

1:20:58

Yeah.

1:21:10

And so I couldn't put more on her shoulders. And I do love the fact that my parents loved each other so deeply, so passionately, and the. The fact that they went off and had fun and just those incredible nights in the 70s in Paris. It's just a dream. I don't. Because I used to say to Kate, because we had that same childhood. Lou had a. My younger sister had a different childhood with a mother that was much more present because she had pushed all that life away and wanted to be a mother at home and cooking and all that.

1:21:11

But.

1:22:11

So I used to say to Kate, oh, the childhood we had with Normandy and how. What a dream it was. And she said, but how can you say this? It was so boring. And they were never there. And she had such a different view. So. Yeah, I guess I. I love the fact that. That she left us. And then my daughter said something about guilt, because I have a tendency to feel guilty quite easily. And she told me, but, you know, it's a way of bringing stuff to you again, being in the center. She was not saying it against me, she was saying it against my mum.

1:22:11

Right. Yeah.

1:23:06

I mean, you know, not just to make me feel better, but then I thought, oh, she's telling me something, but.

1:23:07

It'S quite infectious, someone's pat. It's very hard not to take them on. But that's so sweet of her. Your Daughter too.

1:23:15

Yeah.

1:23:24

You know, reassure you as well. It's lovely when it can go.

1:23:25

Yeah.

1:23:30

Back and forth.

1:23:31

Yeah.

1:23:32

Well, thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis. I've loved talking and have so much identification with you, Isis. So, so interesting to hear you. Hear you talk about your life and.

1:23:34

You know, I bought a book. Is he your grandfather or your great, grand, great grandfather?

1:23:51

Sigmund. Yeah, yeah.

1:23:56

Got a book on my. How do you call this?

1:23:58

A. Oh, yes.

1:24:00

Living room table.

1:24:01

No. Yeah. So we would just an ot.

1:24:03

I.

1:24:05

This is an autumn and I call it just because it's covered in leather.

1:24:05

But.

1:24:08

Yeah.

1:24:09

And I bought it because it's about grief. Oh. And. Yeah. The loss and grief. And I do this very often. I buy a lot of books and I don't read them. So it's there.

1:24:10

Yes.

1:24:26

I open it and I close it.

1:24:27

I have to confess, I haven't read any of his books either. Except for this comic book, which is brilliant. Here, A guide to Freud. And that tells you all about. Somebody did it about him, but it compresses. It's. Have it. I'll go, no, no, no, go on, take it. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's millions of them out there. And I read that and that was my way in. And I've read things about him. Like there's a script that Jean Paul Sartre wrote for John Huston for his film about Freud, and I read that. I mean, they never used it because John Huston said, oh, it's great, but it's a bit long. Can you shorten it? And he went away and came back and it was even longer. He knew what was gonna happen. Those things are good. I hope one day I'll be able to read some. But that's great. It's very. The drawings are brilliant and it's terribly interesting.

1:24:30

Wonderful. But heavy, heavy background.

1:25:45

Well, like some of the things you were saying, saying, you know, my sense was you do not ever capital or feel you have something that you haven't earned. No one ever said that, but I think watching my father working, he never talked about anything apart from work. It was about, you know, that was what mattered. So his example was a very. That I decided on that and.

1:25:52

But did he would take you into his work?

1:26:20

Yeah, so I used to sit for him. That was my version of lemon incest, you know, doing. Sitting for him. And. Yeah, that's how we got to know each other.

1:26:24

But talking also.

1:26:38

Yeah, he would talk. Yeah, he was great. You could chat away. I mean, as long as he wasn't painting your mouth or you weren't too animated. But I knew exactly what to do.

1:26:40

Because my father made one draw, not two drawings of me, really. And I remember sitting there and taking it so seriously. I was six, but I knew that the little time he would take with me for his work was special.

1:26:53

Yeah. Yeah. It felt good, didn't. Yeah.

1:27:16

A world that. Yeah. That I was suddenly invited.

1:27:20

Yeah. Yeah. No, Very strengthening.

1:27:26

Oh, thank.

1:27:31

You, sam.

1:27:40