But it's really fun doing the online dating photos for people. My concept is that wherever that person is, there just happen to be a professional photographer there who just happen to get that one photo of them coming out of yoga or at a bar, at a party or at a wedding like reception or whatever. Welcome back to How Much Can I Make, the podcast about jobs and careers. I'm your host, Merav Ozeri. My guest today is Caroline White, a professional photographer who turned her passion for storytelling into a thriving business. She shoots corporate work, personal branding and family portraits. But what really caught my attention is her stunning underwater photography. From maternity portraits that look like fine art to dream-like images that float somewhere between reality and fantasy. You can see her photographs on her website or Instagram account. The links are in the show notes. Don't miss it. They're really amazing. Let's turn to Caroline and find out how she carved out a one-of-a-kind niche in a brutally competitive industry and also how much can she make? First of all, tell me, how did you become a photographer? How I became a professional photographer was that I came to LA in 2005 to be an actor. And I was very lucky. I started working in commercials right away and making good money. And as soon as I had enough money, I was like, I'm getting a camera. I'm going to take the headshots of all the actors in my acting class and put up a website because I'd been wanting to be a headshot photographer of actors for as long as I'd really been an actor. So you always were attracted to photography. So what kind of photography do you do? I saw a variety of things on your website. There's what I do and there's what I sell in market. Basically, I shoot everything except for weddings. I do not shoot weddings. I mostly do personal branding for entrepreneurs. I do underwater. I do maternity. I do video. And the underwater thing I added in 2021. So that's a newer, more exciting, sexier niche that I've found in the show. Yeah, and I want to talk about it. But before, did you have to go to school or are you self-taught? I'm self-taught. But I have a degree in acting, which is it's the most useful and the least useful degree all at the same time. Yes, I can imagine. I feel like actors can do anything, but also the degree is so worthless. Yeah, I'm self-taught. I took a couple of darkroom classes, but it's in my blood. I wouldn't be a photographer if my great aunt wasn't in the ether, in the DNA, in the family conversation. Why? Was she a photographer? Yeah. She was one of the biggest photographers way back in the day. She did the first cover of Life Magazine in 1936. She photographed Gandhi, the Holocaust. She died in 1971. I was born in 1981. So when I first started taking people's pictures, like when I first started making money, I was so insecure about how new I was to it. So when people would say, how long have you been doing this? I would say, do you believe in reincarnation? Because I didn't want to talk about the fact that I have always been getting paid to do this for like two months. There goes the dog. At what point did you realize you can make it a business? Pretty quickly. I would say it was a side business for the first seven years because I was still doing acting. So I was split 50-50 between acting and photography. And then in 2011, I had a burglary. And they took my life's work. They took all my archives. I didn't have cloud storage back in 2011. Cloud storage wasn't quite fully integrated thing. So I lost all my equipment, no insurance. And that's when I decided, you know what? I think I'm done with acting. And I said to myself, let me do an experiment. Let me put myself, throw myself into photography for a full year and then see at the end of that year if it's viable. So what was the first gig you had? I was also the year that I joined B-School taught by Marie Forleo and she became a client. And that's how I fell into photographing all these women entrepreneurs for online marketing and coaches. I took her course and I don't think I even got through a quarter of the course and just I fell into that community at the right time. But I also had the skills as well. It was like this just confluence of luck meeting opportunity meeting skill and those lucky moments. And I actually had photographed Marie's assistant who was an actor and she was like, oh, Carolyn, she bought my biggest package at the time. And she was like, Carolyn, you should really photograph women entrepreneurs. And I was like, oh, there's not enough of them. I've already done 10. There's not that many. And she's like, no, you're so wrong. It's a billion dollar industry. You don't know what you're talking about. I was like, no, it's not. And then I even though I poo pooed her suggestion, I still ended up falling into it so that she had a vision for how meant for that track I was. Shout out to Louise Flory. God bless her. So from shooting women entrepreneur, how did you get to underwater photography? How did this come about? I think I saw an episode of F stoppers, which is a podcast YouTube for photographers. And I saw a photographer that was doing underwater shoots and she was like putting brass framed beds and musical instruments and creating these really magical worlds. And I just remember being like, I want to do that one day. I don't know when I don't know how, but that that really stuck in my brain. When I would daydream, I would keep going back to that one day. I'm going to do that. And eventually I did. It took a long time to get there. So you're mostly doing pregnancy and delivery underwater or? No, no deliveries. No deliveries. OK, just so underwater photography is very cinematic. It's emotional. I see people responding emotionally to it. What is it that you try to achieve in underwater photography? I think for me, the underwater work that I do for me personally is all about escape, escaping this crazy world we live in, escaping the mundane. But it's also about romance. When there's a black background, it's very cosmic and outer space. You know, when you're under the surface, the surface above you becomes a mirror. And so if somebody is floating with their with their face above the water and you turn the photo, it looks like they're looking through that mirror in the matrix that becomes a liquid and they're going through a portal. When you do underwater, you rent a pool, you have a pool. I've done it in the ocean, but definitely the pool. It would only photograph people in the ocean who were like super ultra divers, surfers, ultra ultra super water people. But the pool is awesome. Yeah, I rent pools. And then I have a housing that I put my camera in that locks it all in and seals it and has all these crazy buttons and stuff. And I used to hold my breath on shoots, but now I have this special breathing machine that so I don't miss any shots. Oh, yeah, because yeah, this is what I wanted. What's the biggest challenge of shooting underwater? When I do personal branding photography, I am like setting every piece of fabric, every prop, every angle, like every pose is like set. And with underwater, it's completely different. You have to let go. The fabrics are flowing. The hair is going. The there's always a slight current in the pool because of the filter. It's really subtle. But if you just float there for a minute or two, you will start to drift or turn. So how did you build that niche of maternity underwater? I guess because I've been working with mostly women for such a long time. And I think the pool is evocative of being in the womb, floating in this warm. I try to rent saltwater pools. I try to heat them really. So it's really cozy and very safe and inviting. And to me, it's very much feels like sort of womb. The heating of the water is interesting. So what other things would you say that people wouldn't think about the underwater photography? What are the challenges behind the scene that people will be surprised to hear? This is interesting. I was afraid of the water. I was not good at swimming. I was not good at diving. I took lots of lessons and trainings and most underwater photographers, they start as just water babies and surfers and bad ass water people and mermaids. And then they just pick up a camera and they're like, cool. I was very much the opposite. I took a lot of practice and training and meditating and healing. But because of that, I am uniquely suited to working with people that have nerves or inexperience in the water. I've had clients who can't float at all, can't dog paddle, can't hold their breath at all. And they still have the positive experience because I am very much in touch with any nervousness. But what's interesting to me is that some of the harder people to photograph are these bad ass world class swimmers because they're so used to working hard in the water and they're not used to relaxing in the water. So they're diving and they're making these blowfish faces and they're working really hard and they're huffing and puffing and I'm like, forget all of your athletic water stuff. You also shoot portraits. We're going to talk about it. Does the underwater photography pay more than the regular like corporate shots or portraits? If they're about the same, they're pretty similar. It depends on what package people get. If I'm shooting a big group corporate, that's going to be more than shooting one person in the water. How much would it cost me if I want underwater pictures of myself? What would it cost me? I would give you a deal. No, my smallest package for underwater starts at 2,500. That includes handmade piece of artwork. What do you mean handmade piece of artwork? So what I'll do is I'll choose my favorite photo and I'll print it onto matte paper and then I'll paint on top of it. So it's like a paint. It's like half painting. I had a client who she had a scarf from her late mother, this beautiful silk scarf. And she was like, I really want to incorporate this scarf into the shoot, but I don't want to put it in the water because it's so precious. So what I did was I did a double exposure with the photos of her underwater and then photographed the fabric on land and combined those in posts. So that is included in the 2,500 and how many pictures do they get? That includes, of course, the pool and everything you pay for everything. That includes the pool and I have a collection of fabrics and dresses and fake flowers. And I have a whole bunch of props and outfits and stuff, but I work with people to figure out what they want to wear and what they want to bring and what fabrics work in the water. The smallest package usually includes about any images. So it's not a small amount of images. Nice, nice. And it includes some video as well. This is what I want. My next question. You said you're doing video. You should video underwater as well. Yeah, I've been doing this my whole, I guess my branding career has been about 14, 15 years. I've always just switched back and forth on the same camera between video and photo. Whether I'm on land or water with people, I'll say to them, that was great. Do that again because I want to get the stills of that. And I just did the video. I wanted them. So I'll have people repeat what they're doing a bunch of times and then they'll start to feel more confident and I'll be getting the closeups, the wide shots, the verticals, the horizontals. What was the most difficult underwater shoot you had? Early on, it was really cold. The heater on the pool didn't work. Fortunately, I was shooting a portfolio shoot. It wasn't a client. So when it was really cold and I was holding my breath, that was really hard. Oh my gosh. And I don't need people to hold their breath for more than 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a long breath hold. I can get a ton of photos in 10 seconds. They don't need to. And did you have an underwater shoot that went completely wrong? Oh, there was a shoot where I forgot a piece of equipment. Again, it was a portfolio shoot. And I had this guy, this male swimmer. He was a beautiful model and I didn't bring part of the equipment I needed. So I ended up photographing him. He was in the pool still and I just got on a really tall chair and I shot all these birds. I view pictures of him in the water, but I couldn't get in the water. And I actually really love that shoot. I want to get back to the money before I want to talk to you. I want to talk to you about your portrait photography, but that's you said $2,500 for a package. How do you know how did you decide how to price your work? It's really hard. Every market is different people. And one thing I encourage photographers, I used to coach photographers on the side a little bit. And I was always telling them, I know you live in Bumblefuck, but you've got to make yourself an established photographer in whatever the largest nearest city is where there's some people who are willing to spend. Get in the car and drive three hours if you need to. Or even get on a plane and just work that price into your packages. Because what happens to a lot of the photographers in really small towns is they have to work in volume. They can't charge as much, but there's also not enough people. So big cities really are great places for photographers to make a decent living and charge a decent rate. But how did you come up with $2,500 for the package? That was kind of based off of what people had been paying for my personal branding packages. And I kind of just did the math on like, because underwater shoots take a lot more prep work and post work. And also a lot more for me, they required a lot more training and just more equipment. I saw on your website on your video that you said that if you take a good image, portrait, it could change your career or change your trajectory. I want you to speak about that. It's a cliche, but the picture is worth a thousand words. As people's attention spans get shorter and shorter, the photos and the videos, like even a few seconds of the video become more important. I'm asking because everybody is a photographer today, they have the camera in their pocket. So they can ask their friends to take a bunch of shots. What makes a difference when they come to you and pay you the money? You shoot everything outside, right? No, I have a studio, a space in Los Angeles, and I rent studio spaces in San Diego and Orange County for personal branding and corporate and then I shoot in pools for underwater maternity. But I also go to hotels and people's homes and Airbnb's and I go to Chicago and Paris and New York. So what do you think makes the difference when you take the photograph rather than the girlfriend? It's a lot of different factors. It's lighting, it's the lens, it's the styling, it's the emotion, it's the gesture, the movement. I'm really big on expression and so I'm constantly like moving around, working with people to try to get both the most beautiful expression, but also the most attractive expression. And there's all sorts of posing tricks and generally speaking, like when your friends take your picture, you're like stiff, you're holding a pose for a really long time. I really like taking people through a flow of different poses, but also trying to surprise them and try to make them laugh and trying to get them out of their heads. So giving them things to engage in, whether that's like an idea or a prop or a pose or a movement, a twirl. Honestly, the big trick is that I take a ton of photos. And you pick the best. Yeah, that is the number one, especially with portrait. Do you have to bring a makeup artist with you? I used to be really strict about requiring a makeup artist and then COVID put a wrench in that and I kind of figured out, look, everybody kind of learned to do their makeup themselves during COVID because they couldn't have a makeup artist right in their face. So I'm flexible whether people want to use one of my makeup artists, one of their makeup artists or do their own. I feel like with social media, people have gotten so good at doing their own and they're so particular. So I just saw a documentary about all the stuff that AI is doing online. Do you see that as a threat? Because what prevents somebody from putting their face on some amazing underwater picture or have AI design a portrait for themselves? It's a big competition and threat on photographers now. Yeah, I don't think the technology is there yet. There's a few photographers I do follow that seem to use AI seamlessly, but it's a really small group. And when the average Joe goes on to AI and says, I put my face on this, it looks terrible. It looks so bad. I don't need to photograph everybody if a bunch of people are doing that. It was probably weren't my clients to begin with because I think my clients really value authenticity, but they also just want the experience of being seen and having this experience, whether it's a portrait shoot or family shoot or underwater, especially if it's a maternity shoot. No one is doing AI maternity shoots because I think it's probably bad luck to do that. What is the most request you get for photography? Is it underwater? Is it the portraits? Is it what's your biggest one that's the hardest area for you now? I would actually say personal branding and online dating photos. What? They come to you and tell you I wanted something for dating? Yeah, both men and women. Yeah. And I love doing it. That's actually one of my favorite things because I think it's really exciting to help people in their business and help them make money, but it's not quite as juicy as one of my clients. She credits me as being a big part of why she found her soulmate. And that just gets me so crying. I'm already crying. But it's really fun doing the online dating photos for people because I talk to them about, okay, what's your lifestyle? What activities do you do? Where do you go? And then we kind of try to do a day in the life. So we'll go to the beach or the farmers market or we'll go to a fancy bar when the lights are getting low and I get very into the outfit. I have a whole philosophy of online dating photos and, okay, this is my philosophy because you don't want your online dating photos to look too posed or too professional. It's fine if your professional photos are like, I'm a lawyer and I'm sitting in front of my desk and welcoming you into my office. But for the online dating photos, my concept is that wherever that person is, there just happen to be a professional photographer there who just happened to get that one photo of them coming out of yoga or at a bar, at a party or at a wedding, like reception or whatever. I like to do a lot of photos where people aren't looking directly at the camera. They're being caught off guard a little bit and they're like, oh, I didn't see you there. So you have the package for the 2500. That's the lowest package, right? For underwater, yeah. And for portraits? For portraits, actually, it's 3500, but they get hundreds of photos because they need those for social media and all the different seasons and stuff. How do you market yourself? The name of the game is really all about SEO these days. That's really what the name of the game has become. It used to be... I've gone through... I've been a pro photographer for 21 years and it's always gone through phases. In 2007-08, all my clients came through Yelp. I haven't gotten a client off of Yelp in over 10 years. The last few years, it's been Google. For a few years, it was Facebook. It was Instagram a while back for me. Email newsletters for a while. There's been these kinds of trends of how clients find me and it seems to... I'll have a trend that goes for a while and then it'll start to die and I'll say, okay, we need to figure out what is the next thing. And obviously, the next thing is having chat GBT say, this is who you pick. I'm literally asking chat GBT, how do I get you to recommend me? What would you say if you're looking back at your career? What was the biggest challenge? I would say I had a big dip after COVID and had to rebuild after that. And I had a big chip on my shoulder because I've been doing this for so long. Rebuilding post COVID was harder than rebuilding after my burglary. Wow. What was your biggest reward? I had a recent maternity client who said that the video that I did made her cry. The money is great, but really the acknowledgement and the appreciation, you can't put a price on. When clients make me cry by how happy they are from something I've made with them, when they return many times, that just warms my heart. Do you find yourself working all the time, seven days a week, because you work for yourself? I can't tell. It's so hard to tell because I'll go to a photography museum exhibit and I'm like, does that count as work? I had three gallery shows in the past year and that was a departure from my normal work and that was a detour. And but I don't know if that really counts as photography or if that's more of an artist. How big the prints were in the gallery? Oh my God, some of them were 48 by 30 inches. A whole bunch of them were really big. Oh wow, nice. I have some quick questions. One celebrity or public figure you would love to photograph. Oh gosh. Oh man, there's so many. Sigourney Weaver. I would love to get her in the water. Oh, that would be nice. I think she'd be amazing at it. Yeah, favorite city to shoot in. Havana. Havana. Hopefully we'll be able to go back there. I've been, I've been a bunch of times. I used to lead trips there before the pandemic. And took pictures there. Yeah, I did six trips there, six years in a row. A slide, sunrise or sunset? Oh sunset, I am not a morning person at all. You're going to have to pay me a lot to get up for the sunrise. Black and white or color? It depends. Oh, don't make me choose. This is, this is, no, this is a little harder. I can't choose. Don't make me choose. Okay. One photo you wish you had taken in history? I have to say Gandhi at the spinning wheel, which is why I'm migrating it. She actually took it the day he was assassinated, but Life Magazine decided to not run it in association with his assassination. They held on to it for later, but that was taken the day he was assassinated. Wow. One word that describes underwater photography? Meditative. Interesting. Okay, last one. Finish the sentence. A great photographer should? Be open. Cool. All right. This was so fun. That was so good. I want to remind our audience that they can look at your amazing pictures on your website and it's in the show notes. Really, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much. That's it for today. And if you're interested in other creative careers, visit HowMatchCanIMakeThatInfo and explore our creative careers category. You'll discover what different jobs I really like, how to break into the field, what skills you need, and how much you can earn. And you'll be able to make an informed career decision. I will see you next week with another episode of HowMatchCanIMake.
