Second Marriage, Same Person: Love After The Earthquake with Odette & Dave Annable (Part 2)

Hi, I'm Andrea Bendewald, but everyone calls me Dre. For the past three decades, I've been leading circles with extraordinary people, artists, healers, entrepreneurs, and innovators. Circling is a way of bringing people together. It's so simple. We gather in a circle and share our stories, dreams, experiences, ideas, hopes, and fears, often based on a prompt or a theme, and with certain guidelines used to create a space that's sacred and intentional. And what happens is that everyone has a chance to see and be seen for who they truly are, and a collective wisdom is revealed. And for years, I heard the call to share this with more people. That's this podcast. It's an extension of my life in circles, and my hope is that these conversations will inspire deeper connection to yourself, your communities, and the universe. Welcome to Circle This. Welcome. Hi. Get on in here. If you haven't listened to part one with Dave and Odette Annabelle, pause this, go listen to that, and then circle back here. It sets the foundation for everything we're about to explore. These are two people I care deeply about, both as individuals and as a married couple. They are actors, parents, bizarrely kind and funny, and both have incredible acting careers. Odette known for roles on Supergirl, Three and a Half Men, and Walker. Dave for roles on Brothers and Sisters, Yellowstone, and Lioness, just to name a few. They are the first couple to join us on Circle This, and we get into the nitty-gritty about their relationship. In part two, we circle what happens after love breaks a couple open. The work of repair, understanding each other's wiring and choosing to return. Oof, this is good. Dave and Odette share what brought them back into the same room, how understanding their brains changed the way they see each other, and why healing isn't a solo journey, it's a group sport. This is a conversation about the second marriage with the same person, about staying curious instead of defensive, about the possibility that conflict can become a doorway into deeper connection. So if you've ever wondered whether repair is possible. And if commitment to partnership of any kind is for you, you're going to love this episode. So psyched to circle this with you. So here we are. Welcome back. The Annabelle's part two. Not only are you my first couple on the podcast, but you are my first part two because we did not circle back to a really potent part of our conversation. And I want to circle back because there is so much more to unpack. So welcome back. I'll just say welcome back first. We made it. We made it. Here's the truth. We opened like a really big door about your the success of your partnership. And then I didn't circle back. And Emily, who's my genius, sweet producer who, you know, was like, wait a second. I need to hear more about that. I was hanging on their every word as a young woman about to embark on, you know, modern marriage. So this is where I want to start. And that is, you talked about separating and then coming back together. What brought you back together and brought you to where we are now? Well, you know, are you going to take it or should I'll leave? I'll leave. You'll come in with the clothes, I think. I mean, you know, if we're being truthful, there was unforeseen circumstances. There was an external event that changed everything, which was the coronavirus, right? I was actually on a date the night before the shutdown. But hold on, let me just jump in. I have to interject here because I'm going to rewind really quickly. We weren't just separated. We were in the final stages of a divorce. With a mediator, yeah. Nothing like, no lawyers trying to handle that right. But we were we were in the final stages and I had my own house that I was renting. We had just sold our house. Right. Correct. We just sold our house. I went to New Jersey to shoot a pilot and we were two days away from or even a day before we were about to roll on the cameras. It was a big job. It was great. Dave was we were still, you know, in communication. Of course, we share a child. And I get a call from the studio saying there's a global pandemic. We're shutting down production. I was like, hold on. This was the one. You're like, could we maybe not? Because I would really like this to continue down this road. And so then you can jump into you. You were on a date. Oh, yeah. Well, and in hindsight, there was there was sort of these like big moments that happened that was the impetus of the split. But it was now looking back all of these reasons why. And that's an interesting thing is when you're you know, we've actually we said we're on our second marriage, but it just happens to be with each other. You know, that's really where we landed. But, you know, if we're being truthful, the external event of coronavirus where I was like, look, people are dying. We have a five-year-old daughter. I don't care what the heck has happened between us. Like, I'd like to quarantine as a family. It's two weeks. We're going to be fine. Two weeks. So, you know, to be able to then be in a situation where there's zero distractions, there's no going out to dinners, there's no work, there is nothing besides her and I basically staring at each other and our kid. Under the same roof, under the same roof again, and literally finding each other in in that situation and talking and communicating and, you know, with therapy and dealing with pain and understanding. I mean, that was the it was a crazy, you know, it was our universe, because what else would have put us in that situation where we're like, shit, we got to talk. I don't think anything. I think you have to just, you know, give it up to fate there. The timing of that. And timing. I think that was sort of the theme of our first podcast together. Timing is everything. Yes. I will say, though, I will say if Dave and I hadn't have done the solo work on ourselves before we were brought back together living in the same house, it never would have worked. And what I mean by that is I had to take a real hard look in the mirror and face my choices, my mistakes, my. The looking at the person that was capable of kind of blowing up my life in the way that I did and and really without anything else with just myself. that's so hard it was so hard for me personally let's just say I mean I sat in front of the moon so many nights by myself just thinking I went to retreats I had I was I mean therapy just like all of the things medit like going to the den meditation he went to the den the silent retreat just really journaling. I mean, as much as I could just to strip myself in order to understand who I was, who I am, where I'm going, why, how this is going to affect my child, all of those things. And if we didn't have that time, and if we didn't do the work on ourselves to become whole people, we would have fallen right back into those old patterns. We would have fallen right back into the reason why we were separated and then we're going to divorce in the first place. And so thank God that we had that time. And if it would have been even longer, who knows, maybe both of us would have moved on. If it would have been shorter, we might not have been ready. So it was that like sweet spot that God, the universe really just provided us with that precious time. Yeah. I mean, I feel like for our journey, we were rewarded with that because we had done the work. And it was, you know, it was just our like, hey, wake up. Hey, wake up and figure this stuff out. You're grownups now. And and, you know, our therapist said. because he was on speed dial, let's just be honest. During that time, we were very raw. First of all, for a lot of people. COVID was really, they really banked. Yeah, but he was our champion, and he was so, so wonderful. He should never charge us again, because the amount of people that I have sent. Look, you guys are frigging poster children for this guy. But he said to us, this was a little while in, once we realized that, We wanted to work on this. He looked at us and he said, are you both done hurting each other? And we were like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Shit. What do we do now? Yeah. So I'm like seeing this as a visual movie in my mind. What was the moment where you looked at each other during this time and separately or together? where you either recommitted or refell in love or fell in love with the new version of yourself and he or she was your mirror? Like, do you remember the moment when, or a moment where you realized like, oh no, I'm not going anywhere this day? I do. I know the moment. Do you, it might be different. We've never actually talked about this. Well, I was going to say exactly what you said. I remember that conversation with the therapist and, you know, it was a very confusing thing because it was like two, you know, we were separated, but it was two weeks. And I had still been like talking with other girls. And then he was like, well, if you're going to try this, you got to cut down, shut down all communications. Like it all made sense. And it was all like that thing where it was that moment where it was like, yeah, you know, I love you. I really think that we're supposed to go for this fucking crazy ride together. whatever this is you're supposed to be next to me in the roller coaster and we're supposed to we tried we tried to really you know make it work to me i tried to shake him i tried to shake him we both have like tried intentionally or subconsciously like we really had and every single time this is nothing new but like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and all of these massive moments these many earthquakes in our marriage have ultimately brought us closer together and not pushed us further apart and i think that's the secret is like when you can go through bam this earth they'll happen whether it's a death or it's an affair or it's you know anything right like that's there's earthquakes there and if you can look at each other and somehow be better because you have each other then you're that's it you know the moment um for me was and it's like i took my shirt off yeah yeah that's what it was um it was it's stamped in my brain where we had set up this um tent outside in the backyard because what else what the hell else are we going to do? So let's camp. So Charlie and I were in this tent and we were kind of just talking and it was broad daylight. This was very, very early on in the pandemic when people were not seeing each other and we were all totally freaked out. So I remember, are you okay? I remember that moment of being in the tent with Charlie and I had many moments with Charlie at this point on my solo journey of really wrapping my head around what it would look like to be a single parent and how that would feel for Charlie and what we would do and how we would bond and without obviously, you know, having that full unit. And I was just having one of those moments fully present with her. And I remember Dave came into the tent and he looked at me. And it was one of those, like, it was the first time that I'd seen that, like, my guy, my guy is back. He's here and we're going to do this. And I don't remember what you said, but you gave me a kiss and I think you might've said I'm here. And it was hard work, but it, I mean, we're certainly on our second marriage with the same person. Not that we don't, Dude. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, it's been three days since our, we did the part one. We've been divorced four times since then. Okay. So you want the real, that's the real nerd. Like it, like it doesn't stop. But in that way, in that specific way, we have, we needed to have for our lives to be blown up in that way, for our relationship to be blown up. And personally, right? Like not everything is the relationship, like individually. I needed to learn a lot of lessons individually. She needed to learn a lot of lessons. So again, we could grow and be ready at that point to be like, I see you. I've grown. I see you. I've grown. One of you said, your therapist said, are we done hurting? Are you done hurting each other? And I want to connect this to the idea of giving and receiving love. And that is, are we done hurting ourselves through each other? like I'm hurting you but really who am I hurting right right who am I hurting really who am I hurting I'm hurting myself through you so that's that's what I just heard and then I also want to know all the work that you did separately and then you kept doing the work when you got back together during COVID what was it like like meeting each other the new versions of each other? Because that's what I'm seeing or hearing or want to know more about. It's like he went off and did this work. You went off and did this work. And then you would come back together. Were you mirroring each other? Like you're evolved. I'm evolved. I love myself more. You seem to love yourself more. Well, that's attractive. Like what was happening? What was the experience or the discovery in this second marriage? yeah well i think it was taking personal responsibility for actions for behaviors for and and understanding your partner right it's so normal and we still get into this it's like a defensive like hey you're doing well i'm not doing well you do that and and we still do that all the time but overall i was like yo i understand i see you here's what i'm doing i recognize i'm taking responsibility that I was letting you down in X, Y, and Z category. It's hard for me to say, but that's my ego. I actually want you to feel heard. I want you to feel validated. I want you to be happy. And it takes reflective work. And that's the work is like saying, yo, I suck at this. I'm not validating you at all. You share something and I shoot it down. I'm like, yo, don't complain. You're fine. Right? Like, oh, so you don't feel heard. That's what happens. I'm like yo toughen up it's it's 40 degrees out there you know you're fine and and i understand that now as i'm growing older maturing is like yo i can't that's just devaluing and validating what she's saying is that a word devaluing devaluating devaluating it should be i mean we're two-time guests on this and maybe i can create my own word we'd create words all the time we create words all the time he does like yeah yeah let's create a word like normical like we love a normal normal so devaluing normal call i love that um i i think that the new uh version of dave was revealed to me and uh it wasn't like i looked at him and i was like oh my god this is a totally different person And now this is the partner that I want, because we all know that it's it's us. It's we are the ones that need to change in order for the partnership to to work and to evolve. I think it was just little bits of like, oh, he didn't react in this way, which he normally would have. Oh, wait, maybe he's seeing things. He's nurturing what I'm saying. he's taking my share and he's not taking it so personally of course you know or you know it's that self where it's like oh i'm interpreting this as this behavior or this is personal when this has nothing to do with me this is your day this is happening this is not you know because we both do that we're like oh it's about like we're narcissists like that like i'm making it about myself that whole fight like why is she talking like i think that's natural for people to do sure but i mean awareness is, is everything. And, and, you know, if you can be aware two out of the five times you're doing it, then I think you're going to be able to squash. Yeah. And, and, and I really heard this in that earlier exchange. If I, if I'm not okay, then if somebody in front of me is not okay, and they're like, I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with that. All I want them to do is be okay so that I can feel okay around them. So, so hurry, like, don't, don't have a problem. Don't stress. Don't do that because I'm not managing my own. So please just take care of yours. So we tend to tell the other person what to do, do it better, do it faster and do it so that I don't feel dysregulated. That's why we take everything personally. Right. That's why we're like if someone's complaining, I have a I have a like a tick when someone starts complaining about the outside world. To me, I see it as avoidance of just taking care of themselves and responsibility. So I have to take a real deep breath when someone starts complaining and not take it personally. You're like, oh, well, they're dysregulated. I'm not. Right. Right. That's an issue. Yes. Let me just say something. I love, I'm like Larry David. Okay. I love to complain. You know, this is, this is like, this is why we pay for a therapist. But here's the thing. It drives me nuts. If I get it out, that's all I need. let me complain for five minutes I just like that that asshole just cut me off alright I'm good well I read this thing which really helped obviously it's a tool you gotta keep it but when she goes off it's like do you want comfort or do you want a solution which one because do you want me to fix it because I can fix it put a jacket on you don't know how to fix it I know how to fix it Right. You know what I mean? Like, I know, I know what to do, but a lot of times in the moment, I just need that, like, I get it. You need to vent. You need to vent to get it out. That's where, what we're talking about is we can't be everything for everybody. And I'm a terrible, like, venter too. You know, I'm like, dude, suck it up. Like, everything's, you know, there's a lot of shit going on. Well, you're also crazy. But listen, yes like put your pants back up we're fine he's like an old football coach i'm like that doesn't always work um but here's here's here's another here's another thing i'm going to say because for me and and you know for dave as well we met at such a young age i was 22 years old dave wasn't even 30 um and we were in such a specific time in our life in our career we were in the middle of Hollywood. We were, it was all very party, very, you know, we hadn't. It was awesome. It was awesome. Let's be honest. Yeah. Like, did someone build a Delores? What a care in the world. A care, no kids. So fun. I didn't, I didn't understand, you know, like my power. I was impressionable. I wanted to please. I, you know, not just Dave, but just people in general. And so I didn't hold boundaries. I gave my power away when he didn't ask me to. How, why am I blaming him for something that he, it was, it's not his responsibility. Yes and I wanna add something about cause I relate that women often up until now because we changing the narrative we we give a man talking about this type of relationship the power because we think that what we supposed to do And the poor guy, I love you, Dave, you know how much I love you, but you are not designed to hold her power like poor you. Like it's a job that you're not even capable of. And yet us women up until now would be like, oh, well, you're the guy. So you're more powerful than me. And I'm just going to give you all my power. It's like now that we see it, it's like crazy talk. Hold on. Yes, exactly. I didn't have those boundaries. I didn't know. I didn't know. I think that that's another which I'm still, you know, working through. But I think that's another big thing that I brought into this version of our relationship. And I think that you have as well. I think that there was a real lack of respect. And that's just everything. My God, you've got to respect your partner as a parent, as a person. Yeah, 100%. And I'll just keep circling back to what you've already brought up and respect yourselves. Like how much respect did you reestablish for yourselves? That's right. In order to be mirrored by this other person, you're respecting yourself. I'm respecting myself together. We can respect each other. And this is, um, this is something that Dave has mentioned many times to his, some of his buddies that are going through, you know, they're on the brink of divorce and we'll always say listen give it your all you say give it your all for six months i was like you know take six months and you just give everything you can you don't wait for her to make the date you make the date you set it all up you you know you yes dear you you know you try the best version of yourself right that everything you can do and then you know not everyone's going to work out and if it doesn't work out you at the end are like yo i i did it and we're still on different paths and That's okay. And there's no blame. There's no blame. Oh, God. Work on yourself. Be proud of yourself. Yeah. Your chases. Yeah, so you're saying give 100%, not 50%. Give 100%. I mean, not 50%, right? 100%. With zero expectations from your partner. Like if she still wants to come back and, you know, say this, great. You sort of, I expected it, which means I expected nothing. You know, whatever's going to come is going to come, but I'm going to still keep trying. Because at the end of the day, I'm going to keep my side of the street clean. Do you think this is just coming to me right this second? Do you think that using your theory, giving it your all for six months, then you could come to a decision peacefully rather than through resentment or argument or anger or like, I'm like, I'm out of here. F this. But if you're if you're at that point, maybe give it that peaceful 100% so that you can come to a decision and it not be with the work undone, let's say, or not be with like knowing, like knowing you try, knowing you left it all on the mat. Absolutely. And, you know, maybe it's three months for some, you know, six months, a long time, you know, first of all, you know, this is just, we're not doctors, you know, we play them on TV 37 times. But, you know, it really is that that feeling of I've given everything I can and I owe this to myself I owe this to her I owe this to my family if you have one and then it really is that that lens that you know most don't have at that point right you're you're it's like what about me me me and it's like if I just give like maybe she's going to be a different person you know maybe like oh she'll feel heard. And same for the same for the dude, you know, like, you know, if it's a girl and you were awesome, like, oh, my gosh, being so nice. Like, of course, I'm gonna be nice. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna mirror that. Yeah, isn't it also like a ricochet rabbit effect? It's like, if you're giving your all and that the other person is gonna feel that and that that's gonna shift the energy, maybe, maybe not. But sure. But at least you feel good about yourself about what you're doing, what you're giving, rather than like sitting back and waiting and being like, well, what are they doing? What have they done for me lately? Yes. And if you think about like, you know, we had this like crazy weird thing where we had six months and like dating what that feels like again, right? The, the, somebody who really wants to hang out with you, somebody who really wants that because you're both putting in effort and it's like, oh, there's no reason why we can't find times to do that and try and establish that again in our relationship. And that's where it's like doing new things and try and like, you know, right now we're doing a puzzle together. We're so old. Yeah, I'm like the older guys. We're so I pulled a hammy doing it. No, but like in the smallest version of, oh, we're just sitting next to each other. We're not on our phones. We're not scrolling. We're not like, you know, thinking about everybody else's life. We're just like super present and hanging out like, oh, you know, pickleball. You know, we start like something, whatever it is, anything. And, you know, sometimes it's going to work and then sometimes it's not. But then at least you have that peace, which is, I think, what, you know, when we were going through our stuff and it was hard and it was tumultuous and it was all of the things. We did have some really beautiful moments of connection, even though we were still, you know, But we treated each other kindly throughout that whole process as best we could. Oh, the greatest. Let me tell this. The greatest was after we decided to give it another shot, our mediator called us. And he called me. I answered it. And I don't even remember his name now. But he was so wonderful. Something. Oh, yeah, that's right, Tom. He's like, Odette, so, you know, all I need is your signature. sure. That's it. And then we can kind of just wrap this, wrap it up. And I go, buddy, you're not going to believe this, but we're, we're, we're going to give it another shot. He's like, you're kidding me. He goes, you know, I had a feeling about you too. And he, I think he charged us half or something. He's like, I'm not, it was for one session. Yeah. It was this thing. And it just, it all kind of and we were there in person with him going through a lot of logistics of you know kids and 50 all that stuff wow and for him to be like he knew and he had a feeling you know it's just validating it's just you know and i i will pat her on the shoulder myself on the shoulder i know you will too it's like somebody we also had great advice around us and very early on very early on uh somebody had written us an email and one of the lines and it was like you know imagine charlie's wedding day you two can be on separate sides of the aisle with different partners and that's okay or you can be and or in fighting or you can be on the same side of the same side of the aisle whether you have partners or not or you're holding each other's hand you're there for her as a unit and i was like oh i definitely want to be on the same side of the aisle, whether it's you or it's somebody else, like this is what, this is our journey, right? This is our test, you know, for this life is like, how are we going to be in this situation? How do we react? We had a few mentors through our time apart. You were one of them. Yes. And this person that Dave is talking about, he was also one of them and our therapist, of course but um you know we were so lucky to have an army behind us that loved both of us and that just wanted us the best for us there was no animosity between friends or anything it was love everybody's cheering for us everybody was cheering for us whether we made it together or whether we were going to become a modern family and we would have gotten there regardless obviously you know we're doing it we're doing it i have i have i have a three-part inquiry and you decide which one you'd like to pick up one is was the the email i hear i hear that story of like seeing the the future and then also the the mediation sounding very you know it's tricky yeah divorce is a, is a untangling that is not easy. Was that daunting? A, so that's the first question. Was that daunting? And was there a moment, I know you were separated living separately, but that where you really felt like, oh, I don't, I don't know if I'm ready to really truly let go of this person yet. And was that in mediation or was that at another time? So that's, I'll just, I'll just ask that question. Someone, someone said to me recently, look, marriage is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. Yeah. Yeah. I would say the, um, I, I knew that after the fallout and after the explosion happened, I knew that I needed, there was this real knowing that I needed to work on myself before I could even consider being with Dave and what that looked like and repairing what I needed to repair. There was never, ever a part of me that didn't actually, and I said this to you throughout our entire journey, that I felt like at some point we were going to do this again or that I wanted to. And I expressed that, you know, of course, it was up and down and, you know, and all of the things. But yeah, I yes, absolutely. And it wasn't just in mediation. It was moments where I would have this like deep knowing. I knew there was a lot of work to do on myself. And I knew that I had to take so much responsibility for so many things. And so it wasn't going to work right away. I just knew it, nor should it. I mean, I owed that to my family, to myself, to Dave, to everyone. You know, I think it's just always been her. It's just always been her. And, you know, good and bad. And there's, you know, quite a bit of both. I always saw my life with her. I'm thinking about Emily, Emily, who is embarking on marriage. I'm thinking about young couples and thinking about myself, my own relationship to marriage. And what you just said, I want to, I want to like shout it for the back row is that we don't really share enough about when, when you partner, you're partnering with, with both sides of the person, the light and the shadow, the, the beauty and the ugly, the, the light and the dark. And we, and we're sold like, no, no, no, it's all love and fairy tales and rainbows and unicorns and you just love each other. And then, and then this other like scorpion tail comes up and you're like, what the, wait a minute. They have a dark side. They have a shadow. They have unhealed parts. Where'd that come from? And I had this beautiful therapist, she's passed. And she said, if I were ever to minister a wedding ceremony, I would have the couple turn their backs to one another during their vows as a symbol that they are also marrying their shadow. Oh, that's great. Wow. It's interesting, yeah. It's true, though. It's so true. We all have so many layers, and we're all like, again, I think we were talking about it, but she's going to be a magnifying glass for everything that I do wrong. You know, she's going to alert me to all of my, you know, weaknesses. It's also, you can look at it like she's helping me grow by pointing these things out. You know, it's not like I'm not perfect. I'm like, oh, shit, maybe I could be better at that. You know, what would happen if I listened to her this time? You know, a big, sure. Thank you for sharing. A big, big for us is that we've grown. And I'll just share this because it just happened, is that traditionally in our partnership, we're both very fiery, which makes for a very passionate and fun and never boring marriage. But we do have that the shadow that we have can mirror each other. And so when one person goes here, the other matches and it will just keep going. And it's super can be really toxic. And I'm going to give it up to us because in this area, I do know that we've grown so much is when the argument happens and when it starts to escalate. The best thing that we can do is walk away if we can. Sometimes we can't and it gets a little even more heated. but eventually when we walk away and we decide that we're we have to shelf it we've got to shelf it for whenever it is or us or yeah and when we do talk about it whatever it is whether we smoke a joint together and we're in a whatever whatever we have a glass of wine we don't have it we have a tea but we're in we have to promise each other to be in a place where we can hear each other and not in that react there's nothing good is going to come from that reactive place we're going to say shit that we don't mean we're going to get mean we're going to keep fueling the fire so that's i don't know why i brought that up it wasn't even relevant but i just felt like well i i think we've grown a lot right we've grown in in that confrontational moment i mean we're you can't touch us when everything's great but we you know you you put us on a a down downhill we're alpine skiing down there yeah you were talking about the shadow we're talking about shadow and you were saying your your shadows are pretty fiery and well matched when it comes we've learned we've learned how to like take the turns on the way down right and and instead of just the luge um and again we're still learning i mean it's it's a it's an evolving process you know we're certainly not experts. I mean, we've been, you know, we just know what we know. We're still eager to be students. Well, we have to be, and we'll always be, you know, especially in marriage because it's like you're, you're, you're taking an imperfect person, another imperfect person, putting them together and expecting a perfect result. And that's just never, you take your best friend on the planet and you're like, Oh, you're going to move in. You're going to sleep together every night. You're going to make every life choice together. You're going to raise children together. You're going to cope it. All of it. You're like, yo, I wouldn't want my best friend in there. See you, bro. Which is why we're in a loneliness epidemic. Part one is that so many people don't want that type of intense intimacy it takes to live with someone else. So all these people are living alone and they're struggling because they're not willing to face that beautiful list that you just described of of cohabitating, cohabitating. Yeah. Cohabitating because it's hard. Yeah. Because, again, you've got to work on yourself because a mirror is going to be held to you and you're going to be like, oh, God, I do need to grow. I need to like. Yeah. Yeah. We're not taught to sit with discomfort. We're taught to escape it. We're taught to quick fix. and everybody's selling happiness rather than because it's easier and cuter and sexier. That's right. This image of you guys in COVID together and a lot of people, we all went through it in different ways. A lot of people separated after COVID, like they got the answer they needed by being together and some people stayed together. So I read this article once in Psychology Today magazine years ago and it was, I'm calling the theory, but it was the deserted island premise. And that is that two people, if left on a deserted island, any two people could fall in love. Oh, yeah, sure. If you spend enough time together, you could fall in love. And it's why co workers fall in love. It's why couples that hang out a lot together, sometimes other, you know, they will fall in love. And it's because of time spent together. It's why like, you know, when I was waitressing at a French restaurant, I spent enough time with like Phil the bartender. And all of a sudden I was like, I love him. I'm in love with him. No, I'm not. If you set me up on a date with him, never going to happen. But I, and I, so I always think about that and I go, right. It's like, if you get to know someone in their story and, and, and share more of yourself. So is also that what happened for you guys in COVID, it's like you were given the opportunity to fall in love again or fall more in love. I really think it was the exactly that and no distractions. I mean, I can't even imagine any other time where you literally have nothing else to do. So we were, there was no, I'm not quite sure it would have been the same if it was like, oh, I'm going to go out with my friends or I have work or I have an audition or I'd like, and we're still trying to figure that out. It was like, no, we're okay. We have basically 12 hours to kill today. So with a, with a five-year-old. So yeah. Yes. I think that it still would have been easier to just stick with the plan. And he told us we chose the hard way for sure. Yeah. You take Charlie for a walk. I'll have my time. We'll switch off. You know what I mean? We could have easily stayed quarantined together or even maybe just realized that we're going to be okay. He could have gone back to the house and we would have just not seen anybody but had Charlie go back and forth. And that would have maybe been easier. I don't know. But there was a knowing that it was Dave, that we were meant. And so I don't know how to describe that. I think, yes, the isolation certainly was it was a gift. It was a gift is what it was. And just knowing that the hot that I knew that it was just going to be worth it to go through hell for a little bit. So like, yeah, what a blessing inside of what was such a nightmare for so many. And I experienced it too in my different communities, all the blessings that came out of that time of no distractions, of being present and of being in community. and not like, oh, I got to go over here for community or I have to go over here for connection, that we all, when we could, that we hunkered down within. That's right. Emily and I were just talking about this, but chosen family, that we chose who to hunker down with. You cut the fat real quick. It was easy to understand who mattered and what you were going to spend your time on. And it was, you know, we had a four-year-old that required a lot of attention. And so that was also, it wasn't just, I mean, it was, we had a rut. It was, it was a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah. And to focus on that together. I brought up Emily's name. Emily, do you want to come back in here and share or ask our lovelies? Because I know you're grinning. Look at her. I could look at her face. she's just like so happy are you so happy she's the best decision ever called it off no no no the opposite the opposite yeah it's it's like medicine to to hear what you guys are sharing so really thank you so much i guess what i have been thinking about that i'd love to bring up And Dre's going to kill me and I don't care. I was at a wedding a few years ago, but I'll never forget. The officiant said something to the effect of, yes, we're all gathered here today to celebrate the love between these two people. But but really we are celebrating all of the love in this room because the truth is that this couple they are going to need all of your love through the unfolding of this marriage And so you know you touched on the community of support around you and the love And you, you know, called Dre out as to being one of those people who supported you. And I, you know, I'm so privileged to know what it feels like to be loved and seen by Dre. But and I like have a hard time putting it into words as to what that uniquely is. So I guess I can you explain it? Like what what was she and, you know, the others really, really able to do for you to hold you both during this time? I just trust you, Dre, so much with my heart, with my relationship, because I know that you love us both equally. And when we spoke individually about, you know, my journey and my side there, I just felt so safe because you still, you know, Dave and you had his back, but you were able to give me something that I needed. And it's hard to explain, right, Emily? It's hard to explain what you give, Dre. You make people feel seen and heard and validated. And that is such an undervalued quality of a human being. And especially in these massively, you know, emotional times, to have somebody that is not choosing a side, but to be calm and offer words of wisdom and a zoomed out perspective. is something that people need and not everybody has that. So I'm going to tell everyone right here your phone number so they can call you when they need it. Because I won't pick up. I can't switch attention, right? Thank you. It is that the ones that I trusted the most weren't the ones that were saying, fuck Dave and he did this and you know it wasn't it wasn't that and it wasn't that for me at all it was when I sat down with you to talk about the big picture and when we would you would share your experiences and things that I could draw from your life because you're such an inspiration to both of us in the way that you choose to live your positivity, your radiance, you're just so real, so grounded. And, and you're like, still like a little fairy. I don't know how you managed to capture all of that in one person. Well, I'm blushing, I'm receiving. Thank you. And I want to tie this into what we just shared about on the podcast, is that something we in this conversation is that we usually don't want to be told what to do. We usually want to be shown or held space for the fact that we're going to figure out what to do. And that's how I felt with the both of you. I was like, oh, they're on their path. They're going to figure it out. I love them both. Yes. But I never felt like you needed to be told anything because you were going to figure out your life, your journey. That was it. So we're usually not looking for the answer. We're usually looking for the reflection that we have the answer. Yes. Yes. That's it. You explained you very beautifully. Here's what I think I do. Yeah. But I do. I mean, I don't remember like specifically, but I can remember the energy of being with the both of you. It was support. Yeah. And non-judgment, I would say, that that has been my, that there was, if we could all do that for everybody, which is when anybody's going through something, is that you just don't judge what they're going through, that everybody's just another brother, sister on their path. And it's their path. Yeah. So thank you, Emily. I'm going to kill you for asking that, but I'll do that. I'll do that later. But you know what it's making me feel? I just got so overwhelmed with love that I'm going to make Valentine's Day my new favorite holiday. It used to be my least favorite. And now it's my now I'm taking it back, like celebrating, celebrating love, celebrating all of all of this love and all these different versions of love. It's not cookie cutter. That's right. That's right. It's so beautiful, you know, that we were able to be in the trenches and pull through. It's so beautiful when people are able to look at each other and say, I love you. Thank you. And move on. You know, there's so many different kinds. There's brave love. And it looks not one is the same. So. Yeah. So I'm writing more notes. Emily, anything else before we say goodbye? No, no, that was perfect. Thank you guys so much. I just want to give the viewer, the listeners, like Emily looks like she just had sex. Like she's like rosy, like she's like blushing. It's New York City and the heat in this building is very real. Okay. Okay. Just, just the same. It's weird that you didn't say that about us. That's marriage. I mean like, well, and I'm just, I'm listening through Emily's ears, which is she's getting, she's getting married in 10 months. Amazing. She gets to look forward to all the healing and revealing that's going to happen through partnership. Last thing I'll say is a long time ago, sitting in a woman's circle, and one of the women said, so I don't know, you guys, what do you think? Should I get married to her who she's currently married to right now? But this is when she was asking us, you think I should get married? And one of the wise women in the circle picked up the talking piece and she said, well, that depends. How well do you want to get to know yourself? Yeah. Love that. Yes. And it just hung and that's what she had to answer for herself. Not, is this the right guy? It doesn't matter. Yeah. You're going to get to know yourself through all these committed relationships. through all these committed committed relationships is where we we get to grow and then and then one more thing because you just mentioned it this is just a little thing but we've now implemented the talking stick in our home when we were coaching one day and we were talking about charlie and i think it actually works for it should work for us when we're in having an argument really just we'll talk about it later you don't i love you It's a great time to call it up. The kids will give the kids the talking stick. And that's, it's been a huge win in our house. Amazing. Wait, I actually do have one other thing to say. Shocking, like a false exit. So Dre and I do this like little debrief post pod where we integrate, you know, the conversation after the main conversation. And so as we did that for part one, I was trying to the reason why this is so medicinal for me is because we're busting the myth of this happily ever after, which I certainly grew up with. Right. That the credits roll when they fall in love and then it's just you won. You won. So I was like, what is it? It's not happily ever after. It's it's whatever after. Like in your experience, what would you what would you say? It's growing ever after. Growing ever after. I think that's what we said, Dre, right? I think we said, yeah, growing, evolving ever after. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the work starts, you know, when you say I do. I mean, it's just, and it's not going to stop. And it's exhausting. Here we go. Buckle up, buttercup. I know if you're not watching the video, but I'm 21 years old. And this is just fully gray. Fully gray. So cute. All me. All me. Ray Ever After. Silver Fox. Love you both. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Thanks for having us back. Okay, it's my favorite part. Still processing with Dre and Em. Can't stop. Won't stop. Yeah. A year in. We're a year in. I understand. Oh, my God. Okay, this was a small moment, Dre, but it really meant something to me because there was like a tiny aside when Dave said, as a disclaimer, he's like, you know, we're not doctors. We're not doctors, which, of course, like, I understand. I get it. This disclaimer, this desire to put out a disclaimer to say, like, listen, we're not experts. We don't know what we're talking about. And I feel like we do that a lot, too, or we're self-conscious about maybe coming across as like knowing anything. But these two episodes, this was our first part two, right? And I really wanted to do a part two. It was so insanely helpful for me. And I guess I just hope that that this idea of like, needing to be an expert in order to speak on something. And then I just thought about how much I've learned in circles just from hearing people's lived experience and that like life is a classroom by the way it's not like we all have to have a degree in something in order to have something to offer and I don't know I just got really amped about it because okay well hold on now I want to get amped too because what you're describing is the reason I appreciate the disclaimer and it doesn't feel like they're coming across as experts is because they're not coming from like an academic this is what we've studied and learned and now i'm going to present you theories they're sharing their experience they're sharing their stories that's the whole premise of circling is that you listen i'm gonna take a breath you listen to other people have to say and you listen to their stories and you source the moral the material that that is right for you in that moment. And I'll pass the talking piece back to you. Yes. And believe me, I love hearing from experts too. Sure. But I guess I just, I don't know. I really value hearing people's experiences. And so I just hope that this podcast, even, that it gives people permission to share more of themselves because I want to hear it. It is, there is so much wisdom in our lived experience without whether or not we are, you know, have a degree in a certain field of study. Yes, yes. Yes, you're an expert at being you. You're an expert in your own field of you. I'm already jumping ahead because I know who we're talking to later on today about this other, you know, stay tuned, our beloved listeners, because we have more exciting guests coming up that are going to break down exactly what we're talking about, exactly what we're talking about, and why it is, why this circle consciousness, this circled life, this way of being with one another, which Dave and Odette modeled for us. They modeled for us. I love it when they said, when they said like, oh, we've been, we've been, we've been like divorced like four times in between like the four days that we spoke to them last, like so real. That's, that's what I like about their disclaimer, that they're so real. Like we're not sitting here as this like evolved partnership and we're now telling you how to do it. They're just like, oh yeah, we're just still in it. We're sharing, we're sharing what we do. Right. It's not as if they figured it all out, But they figured some things out. And it's certainly helpful for me. So, okay. You brought up this idea of the ricochet effect. Do you remember that? And in the moment, it was like, yeah, if you bring all of your love and your growth and evolution, it's going to, I think what you're saying is like, it's going to affect the other person. It's going to come back to you, right? And I remember when I was dating, and I actually had kind of stopped dating for a minute. So it was right before I met Chris. Somebody told me, stop focusing on finding the right person and start focusing on being the right person. Oh, my God, that's so hot. Right? And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, well. Did you do it? Well, I do think that like it was right before we met. And again, I wasn't looking, but I do think that I had that in mind. It was also COVID where so much was out the window. And but yeah, I was I was like more focused on on myself and who I was and who what I was bringing to the table as opposed to is he perfect and right for me and going to fulfill all my needs. And and right, right. It's like that's a form of ricochet, I think, too. Right. Yeah. Ricochet mirroring if self-love, everything that that the the animals talked about in the in their episode. episode. Yes, if I don't love myself, like what, what am I going to attract somebody else who doesn't love themselves? And then we're going to like, try to fill each other's cup. And that's not, you know, that'll work for a little bit. And then eventually, we're going to have to do our own work. And what you said, and what they said reminded me of what Abraham Hicks says, look it up she's this woman who channels abraham her name is esther hicks yeah esther hicks channels all these entities and she calls them abraham anyway she says that in or they say in couplehood when you're when you're wanting to know like can i keep growing with this person because sometimes that happens where one person keeps growing and the other person's like i'm fine where i'm at is that you keep bringing your high vibration to your relationship. High vibe, self-love, whatever you want to call it. I call it alignment, right? You bring that to your relationship, and it either attracts the other person to rise, or basically they will fall away on their own. You won't have to make the decision If you just focus on your inner landscape, which is what I teach, preach, practice every time I'm like going to outsource to get something from somebody else, I have lengthy conversations with certain people. and then I um one of them are she initials are ek and uh and then and then yeah and I get back to myself and my source and my alignment blah blah blah blah blah blah blah so yeah you either attract it or they fall away when when you're doing your own work and filling your own cup and practicing being in love in love yes yes i thought there's like a meet cute um thing on instagram an account this guy like goes up to couples that he sees on the streets and he asks them how they met and you know to share a little story whatever and it's so cute it's nauseating But one couple, they said that they compete with one another as to who can love the other one better. Oh. And I was like, oh, that's like, yes, sign me up for that competition. Like everybody wins. That is so cute. Do you want to do it together? Should we? Yeah, let's do it. Let's compete. Yeah, let's compete. Well, oh, this is something interesting because I could say we it would be a good competition between you and I. because we do love each other. We talk about how much we love each other. You called me out recently on like, wait a minute. You did. You were like, I'm having a profound experience, and you communicated it via text. And I was like, oh, cute. Yeah, she loves me. And I moved on. And then you were like. Well, hold on. No, because like we had a thing, a little bit of a misunderstanding. I felt like we had a misunderstanding that we like kind of talked about, but like my MO is, you know, beating the dead horse. I'm not really ever satisfied until I know that whomever understands the depths of what I'm trying to say, which is very difficult often for me to articulate. Yeah. So then I sent you this like very long text. And then I also felt like you didn't really read it enough for me. Yes, I did not. You said you didn't. I did not respond with enough emojis or heart or like, like, like energy saying like, I received your beautiful text and you were right. I was like, oh, that's nice. Yeah, okay. She's having a moment. I get it, blah, blah, blah. And then you called me out on it and then you were like, no, you didn't really get it. And I was on a plane and I read it while I was traveling and I tend to get really emotionally cracked open when I travel for all the good reasons. And I'm on the plane bawling my eyes out, texting you back. and we had this incredible deepening of our love. So the reason I'm saying that is because we do kind of not, it's not a competition, but we do have learned, and I'm so grateful for you to really express our love and make sure it's received in the way that it's intended. And you and I are all about breaking the confines of expressing love that it can only be, you know, romantic love, that we're kind of practicing it and exploring it. And I'll also say, and I'll stop yelling, I'm going to calm down, that one of the most beautiful pieces of writing is a poem you wrote for me for my birthday. How many years ago? Four years ago, maybe? Three years ago? And I keep it in every journal. You wrote it for my birthday. I keep it in every journal. And whenever I'm feeling like lonely, lost, I don't know who I am or what I'm doing. I read that poem and it reconnects me to, I don't know, to how much I'm loved and how much I'm valued and seen. So as of right now, you're winning the competition. Amazing. I love it. I love winning. um okay wait but how now you're supposed to say maybe how i'm winning the competition because of how i've expressed my love to you god nothing i got nothing oh my god like no you know what i need you to step it up i need you i'd like a poem i'd like a poem okay or a song okay gosh uh order placed okay oh okay all right well maybe we'll read it maybe we'll read it on the pod okay um the whole reason i brought that up i don't know maybe but it's about expressing love and one of the things that came up in the episode that we just listened to with dave and odette was they really expressed how much they loved me and you checked in with me because you were like I want to leave that in. It's so organic. Flah, flah, flah. Well, wait, hold on. No, I want to. Well, because I want to explain because I really wanted to do that. I know I was going to say why. OK, I checked it. No, because I want to explain why I checked in with you, because I know like let's point to it. Right. That sometimes you get self-conscious and you can finish the sentence. But like about what about it? Because it's all about the listener. I do not want the listener, all of you that are listening, to feel excluded and like you're outside of this conversation where you're listening to two people, three people talk about how much they love each other because I find that can be received as cliquish or look at how close we are. And so I want to be very mindful that these conversations, these relationships, these beautiful connections that I have, I am sharing them because I want the listener to receive something. So I always just wanting to be mindful that it not excluding but it including Now you can share what you going to say Yes And I totally respect that And the reason why I wanted to do it anyway is twofold One it's because I always want to know how I can support better. And I try to emulate certain things that I've learned from you and how to be present with people that I love, but I do have trouble articulating it. So I wanted to get their take on it. That's number one. And number too, when I see and hear people express their love and appreciation for certain people in their life, it just gives me permission to do the same more loudly and uninhibitedly. And I think, and that's part of my mission. I want to normalize that. So that was also part of my intention. Yes. Understood. Understood. I'm glad we brought it up. And I love the, like the modeling of, of expressing love. Right, right. That was my that was my intention. Okay, wait, back to a few things that I want to circle back to that was said. This idea is so beautiful about the officiant or this idea as a ritual to turn your backs to one another at a wedding is the idea just acknowledging the awareness that you are also committing to one another's shadows. Like is that was that the takeaway. Yeah. Yeah. That you're not just committing to this happily ever after theory or presentation of you're going to complete me and we're just going to be make each other, you know, feel amazing for the rest of our lives and love and rainbows and birds chirping and unicorns that as they talked about in the episode that our deepest wounds are going to be triggered and that's the point and that's the point and that our ugly side is going to be activated and that's the point that we come together actually to heal to become whole but part of that is we got to heal what we came in with. And not everybody had these tragic childhoods where they have to heal something major. But I subscribe that we're coming in with stuff that wants to be healed, that wants to evolve. Lineage, I'll say past lives, that you come in with a certain soul journey prescribed to you. And it's like, yep, and I'm going to meet this person and they're going to help me to evolve, to heal, to become more loving. Yes. You know, that brilliant, whether it was a turning point or just a moment where their therapist said, are you both done hurting each other? Right? And you, though, because I was like, oof. but then you took it a step further as you often do and you heard it differently right and you said something like are we done hurting ourselves through each other right that like got chills yeah yeah whoa and because it's so true right we we hurt ourselves when we hurt the people we love like what are we doing and we and i get it in the sense that you know we react to protect ourselves or defend ourselves. But right, if we can pause and remember that we are on the same team. And then I thought about that saying, right, hurt people hurt people. So if you if you feel hurt, like it's like you're going to hurt others. And I guess that's a good thing to remember in order to have compassion for people, I guess, that hurt people that that they are doing it from a painful place. But I also feel like it's not an excuse, right? If you're hurt, that's not just a permission slip to hurt others. It's like that's when it's time to do the work so that you don't hurt others. Yeah. So I'll break this down in like a micro way. So if I'm feeling a little off with myself, I'll do a quick inventory of either my thoughts about other people or have I had a conversation that has left me feeling a little toxic? It could be, oh, I said that thing to Emily that I don't know if that was like too harsh. Let me like circle back and apologize. Let me apologize. because if I hurt you, I'm the one stuck with the bad feeling. If you're, you know, into this type of thing, a lot of people are not. A lot of people are F them, F that, I'm right. And they kind of get addicted then to that kind of toxic adrenaline of dumping on other people. And then they have to do it more and then they have to do it more because they don't want to sit with their own feelings. But I've learned even in gossiping, which I really try not to do at all, calling a friend and talking about another friend because it leaves me feeling bad. Because what if what if that gets back to that person? I don't want to hurt that person. That's going to hurt me. Like if you can trace it all the way back to yourself, and it sounds like that's what the animals do and did is they stopped hurting each other, hurting and then hurting themselves. And they both got to work. And I loved what they said about knowing that they have a lot of fire. You know, I wonder what their astrology is. I'm going to look up their astrology. But they know that if they get into that fieriest exchange, everybody gets hurt. and so they've learned how to pause that you know I loved that that they learned how to pause and not really go further because they know it's it sounded like what they said is that it could be really harmful really harmful yeah what I also heard is that everything is co-created and and so just you know one of the discoveries in their second marriage was taking responsibility and and yeah, that we talked about the 2% a lot, right? Like, what is your 2%? And just acknowledging that even when you're hurt, something I did contribute to this dynamic or this moment. Yes. And just remembering that it's not about fault. Like, yeah, just that everything is co-created. So that's, yeah, that was a big takeaway. I also heard the way that they acknowledged one another's growth in really small ways as they were repairing, that they started to notice small shifts. I heard Odie say like, oh, he's nurturing what I'm saying. He's not taking it personally. And I guess just to recognize that in one another and really take that in, as opposed to like looking for the cracks. Yeah, the self-awareness dance is so much fun once you get addicted to it like I am, which is Naniel, spiritual teacher, used to say, don't take anything personally unless someone makes it personal and then still don't take it personally. Which is that it's never personal. Yeah. It's never like, you know, leaving the dishes in the sink is not personal. Leaving the towel on the floor is not personal. None of it is personal. Even the biggest betrayals aren't personal. Even though it feels so personal, like, oh, that's being done to me. If we can separate out and go, no, actually, it's not personal, even though it feels personal. It's one of the four agreements, right? Don't take anything personally. Don't take anything personally, yeah. Be impeccable with your word. don't take anything personally i don't remember the other two right now but yeah it's a good one i'll look it up yeah um great okay wait here here's here's another thing you know you said like complaining makes you tick yes yeah which yes which which also me too because like i'm such a fixer that i hate kind of stewing in the company like i i'm allergic to it as well. And yet you've really helped me with something because, you know, I do, I have the tendency to want to fix when sometimes I just have to listen. So when someone I love is complaining, I've taken this from you where you have said, like, tell me more, tell me more. So what is the difference, I guess, between complaining and venting? Oh, interesting. I think venting perhaps has some awareness around it. Like I just need to vent for five minutes. I can't stand it when this person does da da da da da and then there's an end point to it and you are aware that you just need to vent like odie said you know sometimes she just needs to get it out she doesn't need fixing complaining is i just want to stay stuck in this belief system that everything is wrong with what's outside of me right it's more blamey right yeah it's more like i don't yeah complaining about I don't know what give me something like what's a you know when people complain about what other people are doing because to me it it what I feel is like oh you're just giving up all of your power or all of you your ability to be centered in yourself if you're just constantly complaining about the other person or the other scenario that is making you miserable that's what I'm allergic to it might be true but I also don't want to live in that framework I want to live in and what can I do about my own inner peace right here right now right here right now that that's why I don't like complaining I get it I get why but this idea when somebody is either venting or even complaining and saying to them tell me more I don't that's really worked for me in certain dynamics because the other person feels validated in the way that they just needed to be to move on. Yes. Okay. My favorite bumper sticker of all time is just remember when you're complaining about the traffic, you are the traffic. That's it to me. It's when somebody is complaining about something that like, why are you complaining about the traffic? You are the traffic. Yeah, it also goes against all the loving what is stuff, right? Correct. Yeah. Correct. That we keep things alive in our mind that keep us in suffering rather than moving towards being in the present moment or, like I said, into a more peaceful inner place that then wouldn't it be lovely if we were radiating that out into the world? Yes, yes. And OK, when Odie was sharing how she gave her power away right when she was younger and and you said, yeah, women often do. And you made the distinction up until now, but give the man the power because that's what we are designed to do. And I was thinking when you say power, what is that? It was where are you saying like women often or in the past, like defer to the man for what decision making or is that what you mean? Yeah, I think so. That the structure, the patriarchal structure is that the man is in charge. The man has more decision power, more smarts, more strength, more, more, more everything. Oh, wait, 1111. Take a picture. Get it. Got it. Love it. Is that, yes, by internalized, I'll speak for myself, the internalized patriarchy that I had, still have, it's still in there, as a young woman was that a man knew more and was more capable than I was, Even though I grew up with a really powerful mom and I grew up in a feminist culture, I still, still had it ingrained in me that I was a little bit below men. And when it came to romantic relationships, how about that? I'll say that. Okay. when it came to, yeah, like work, even in working relationships, there was still a hierarchy in my belief. And so that was like, oh, they have more power than me. I didn't say it, but it was in me that I felt it. When I look back, when I look back. Right. Right. Okay. This idea of the deserted island premise that you believe any two people could fall in love. Remember that New York Times modern love column that said the 36 questions that will make you fall in love with anyone. Have you heard about this? Or do you? Well, I don't remember. And I want to do it right now. I know I want. First of all, I want you to do it right now. And I want to do it with Chris this weekend. I'm just curious what's going to happen. But I'll remind everyone and they can go read what the 36 questions are. But it's based on an experiment and from 1997 dr arthur aaron i think is how you pronounce it the experimental generation of interpersonal closeness was this experiment where they said that if you ask these 36 questions to anyone uh of course it has to be like a used to be the same sexuality right so let's just if we're going to go with heterosexual really though or don't right i mean maybe i don't know i I mean, maybe we need to open up our minds a little bit more, Emily, to the real. You're right. I mean, fluidity is real. So who knows? But they did make the distinction in the article that I read. So I'm taking it from there. But if you in this example, heterosexual, single woman, heterosexual, single man, if you ask one another these 36 questions with which ends with the commitment of staring into one another's eyes for four minutes after this experiment says like I don't have a guarantees but it's like there's a high likelihood of of two people falling in love and the idea is that because you build intimacy and a vulnerability anyway so this woman uh this writer she tested it out she had just gone through a breakup and with with a male friend so in fairness it wasn't a total stranger, but it was a totally platonic friend. She did this experiment and it worked. She fell in love with this friend of hers. And I don't know what the status is, if it like necessarily ended in marriage, but the point of the article was, but look what you just look what you just did. Like you just said, I don't know if it ended in marriage as if that's the end all be all right. Happily ever after. Maybe they just fell in love and they fell in love and that's, they fell deeper in love as friends. No, but it did turn romantic. So it did, I will say that. That their relationship turned romantic and they became a couple, a romantic couple. But don't you think they had a head start if they're friends? That's like a head start, like there's some love there. For sure, but I don't know how close they were. So she did say, like, it's not a perfect example, But she went into it almost trying to disprove it with no interest in this male friend. None. Wow. And then they ended up falling in love. So anyway, I thought about that when you talked about the deserted island premise. I feel like there's an eye in there. I want to look it up. Okay. It sounds fascinating. It's fascinating. And it was a while ago, but yeah, it made me think of that. And then some of the just the major takeaway is that when you have two people that are willing to work on themselves, then I think conflict really breeds intimacy and resilience and can make you closer. Yeah, conflict. I don't really have the concept at my fingertips, but I will say up until now, we've looked at conflict as bad or negative. And now we're understanding that conflict is just part of nature. It's part of what shapes things. nature irritants shape things like the sand in the oyster mollus is that what it is it's trying to get rid of the sand and in trying to get rid of it it creates the pearl so the irritant creates the pearl not just like oh it's just this amazing thing pops out a pearl no it's trying to get rid of the sand and the pearl is created right aren't diamonds similar like diamonds are created under intense pressure. I don't know anything about diamonds. I think so. But that sounds right. That sounds right. Let's go with that. You were like, we usually don't want to be told what to do. We want to be told that we know what to do. And yeah, that's so true. Like I felt that from you before, right? That, that confidence, you give people the confidence that they know, but I was thinking, but it's also, but sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, not sorry. It's also give them the space to figure out that they can figure out what to do. They might not know, oh, I know what I want to do. I want to make this life decision in this career, or I want to marry this person or not. It's they want to be given the opportunity and the confidence and the reflection that they can figure it out for themselves. Not that they already know, but like, yeah, you're going to you're going to know the right decision. You're going to, you got this. I thought for the record, okay. But for the record, sometimes I do want to just be told what to do. I really like, I don't, you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, just I, I'm decision. I have overanalyzed over, like I'm just, so I'm just telling you that for anybody listening who knows me, give me notes. Here's the clip, but here's the clarifying thing that I would, I would share with everybody. It's really good. A to ask permission and B to ask for clarification and C to say, Hey guys, I'm looking for straight up advice. Tell me what to do versus because that helps the, your partner. And then the partner, the person on the receiving end, be mindful. what does this person really want? Do they want advice? Do they just want to be heard? Let me just pause and hold. If they're not clear that they want flat out being told what to do, that we don't just instinctually offer, here's the solution. Here's how you fix it. Here's what you do. That's the clarifying both how we ask for support and how we give support. I love a time saver yes good distinction for sure well I love that you love Valentine's Day now I love it I can't wait for it I can't wait I mean this is post Valentine's this episode came out so I'm speaking to my past right now I had the best Valentine's Day this year I celebrated so much love I celebrated the love of everybody I love yeah I wore red all day people were just smiling at me all day and I went to a sound bath it was amazing here's to love thanks to everyone for listening please be sure to subscribe to our show and share with your friends and family become part of the ripple effect we want you to share with us your takeaways, your thoughts, your feelings your questions we love to hear from you yes DM us on Instagram or you can email us at circlethispod at gmail.com. And thank you for being part of our circle. Good talk, Em. Good talk. This podcast is executive produced by me, Andrea Bendewald, and Emily Cratter. Produced, edited, and distributed by Tracy Thomas and Good Mess Media. You can follow us on Instagram at Andrea Bendewald and Circle This Podcast. And for more information about me and what I do, you can go to theartofcircling.com. Thanks for listening.