This message comes from Warby Parker. Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in-house from premium materials starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Just a heads up, y'all. This episode is gonna contain descriptions of violence just before warned. All right? On to the show. What's good? You're listening to Code Switch? I'm Gene Demby and I'm here today with our senior editor, Lee Denella. What's good with you, Lee? Hey, Gene. Okay, friend. Talk to me. What's been troubling you, Spirit? What's on your mind? Okay, well, as you know, back in the fall, we did an episode about the word genocide and specifically the discussions around what it meant to label Israel's actions in Gaza a genocide. Yeah, remember this, okay? Right. Well, shortly after we published that episode, we got an email from a listener that I have not been able to stop thinking about. His name is Ajay Nelson, and he's been listening to Code Switch since he was a freshman in high school more than eight years ago. Oh, my God, I feel so old. I do, too. And Ajay pointed out that in that genocide episode, we had very briefly mentioned the idea of there being ongoing genocide in Sudan. I know very little about this genocide in Sudan, which apparently is the second genocide there in the last 30 years, but the U.S. government determined in January that it is a genocide. That was January 2025. Anthony Blinken, who was Secretary of State at the time, issued a statement stating that, quote, the RSF and Allied militias had committed genocide in Sudan and that the United States was committed to holding accountable those responsible for these atrocities. But Ajay and many other people felt like that commitment had not amounted to much, either when it came to government actions or public outcry. As we fiercely debate whether Israel's actions did Gaza constitute genocide, U.S. society doesn't seem to have even considered doing something about the genocide that we all apparently agree is happening. Ajay said, of course, he knows that the U.S. is involved with Israel's actions in a much more direct way than they are with Sudan. Exactly. We've talked about this before, but Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of foreign aid from the U.S. It's actually not even closed. Right, exactly. So it made sense to him that Americans feel strongly about actions that they understand their government as essentially bankrolling. But I don't think that fully explains why we've been so silent about Sudan. I've been having trouble processing that. So, Leah, I mean, we should probably give some context here. The genocide claims in Sudan are part of this larger, ongoing civil war, right? And that civil war is being fought between the Sudanese armed forces, or the SAF, which is the official state military of Sudan, and the rapid support forces, the RSF, which is a very powerful and very well-funded paramilitary group. Right. And it's been hard to get precise figures on the exact impact the war has had because conditions in many parts of the country are still extremely precarious. Right. But recent estimates suggest that more than 150,000 people have died since that war started in 2023, maybe a lot more. 12 million people have fled their homes. Jesus. Yeah, I remember in December, the UN's top humanitarian and emergency relief official, a guy named Tom Fletcher, described what was happening in Sudan to NPR as a horror show. You're going through checkpoint after checkpoint, manned by child soldiers. You're meeting people who are starving, who've been displaced many times, victims of sexual violence, victims of horrible torture, brutality. But still, experts I spoke to said, very few people seem to care. There's very little media coverage of it. And then when there is, there's this sort of episodic attention, and then it disappears. And is that the world that we want to create for ourselves? Now, Jean, I think it's worth making something very clear. Like, this episode is not about ranking atrocities or saying what's happening in one place is worse or more worthy of attention than anywhere else. It's really just about understanding the factors that can lead people to engaging or disengaging with the news in different circumstances. Right, right, right. Like, you're asking why is one of these things legible to us? And why is one of these things dominating the headlines? And the other is just, like, not at all. And look, cards on the table. You know, I came into all of this wondering about the race aspect, as we do. Like, you know, we've done so much research and reporting over the years on stereotypes of Africans as inherently violent. So I wondered, like, is that the thing animating some of these discrepancies? Right, that's like the first place my mom would go to. And the people I spoke to said, yeah, that is a part of what's going on, but there's a lot more to the story. As there is so often is. So today on the show, we're going to be asking, what makes people care about major crises that are unfolding in other parts of the world? What makes them turn away? And what does that attention actually do when it comes to resolving these horrible situations? Like, are American eyes on a conflict actually helpful? This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy, or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law. This message comes from NPR sponsor BetterHelp. Financial stress affects more than just your bank account. It can impact your sleep, your relationships, and your overall mental health. If money worries are weighing on you, you're not alone, and it doesn't mean you've failed. Therapy isn't about financial advice. It's about working through the anxiety, shame, or overwhelming thoughts that money stress can bring. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash NPR. So, Jean, I'm going to go out on a limb a little bit and say that I think based on my reporting, it seems that many Americans do not know very much about Sudan. I mean, yeah. Do Americans know very much about, like, anywhere in the world? Like, we're currently at war with Iran. Like, can most Americans even pick out Iran? I'm just no shade Americans. No, I mean, it's a good point. Our international education is, like, notoriously lacking. But I think, you know, if you talk to people about, like, France or Mexico or Japan, they probably have at least some basic knowledge about, you know, what languages people speak, what religions they practice, what the cuisine and the climates are like. And I get the impression that that's not the case with Sudan, at least broadly speaking. Yeah, I think that's fair. That's fair. And I think that whenever a place or a culture feels particularly in doing air quotes here, foreign or unfamiliar to people, it can contribute to the sense that what's happening there is, like, unimaginable, unsolvable. Yeah, like, maybe even unreal in some ways, you know? Exactly. You know, in this episode, we can't and will not be doing a deep dive into Sudanese culture and politics. Right, right, right. But I do think it's helpful to get, like, a small window into what the country is like outside of this horrific war. So to start off, I want to introduce you to someone named Ismail Koushkoush. He's a writer and journalist, and in 2007, he decided to move to Khartoum to give it a go as a freelancer. You know, working in Khartoum, it was an opportunity to discover Sudan in a different way. I grew up mostly outside of Sudan. I think I lived a year as a child. Ismail loved Khartoum's culture, he loved reconnecting with family, and he loved the city's natural beauty. Greater Khartoum is a large metro area consisting of really three cities at the junction of the Blue and White Nile. You can see this different colored waters for almost a mile, one darker than the other, until they fully merged and come to the river Nile. My ignorance here. So I had heard of the Blue and White Niles, but I did not know that the Blue and White Niles were actually different colors. I just thought that was like some kind of like, that's crazy, bananas. I know, me neither. I looked up pictures of it, and it's actually, it's pretty amazing. But yeah, on top of all that, Ismail said there was all this major stuff going on in Sudan politically. Okay. With the monumental time, with the Star Four, there was also the referendum on South Sudan, which I thought was a key moment in modern Sudanese history. He'd been planning to stay in the country for four months. That somehow blundered into eight years. And I got to witness all of that. Even in those days though, Ismail said there were not that many international journalists based in Sudan. Reporters from big news outlets would typically fly into the country from cities like Cairo or Nairobi or Johannesburg when they had to cover something major, which again meant that a lot of the news that Americans were getting out of Sudan was about conflict and ethnic tensions. But even that coverage was relatively sparse. And it was restricted. You know, in 2015, Reporters Without Borders ranked Sudan 174th out of 180 countries in its World Press Freedom Index. Okay. Wow. Okay. So that means that only six countries in the world ranked worse than Sudan on things like the independence of the media, on self-censorship, on transparency, and like the infrastructure in place that allows folks to do journalism to report. Yep. But Jean, I don't want to give the impression that for the past 20 years, Sudan has just been a place of, you know, repression. Right. In 2019, there was also this massive nonviolent protest movement. The dictatorship of Omar al-Bashir collapsed and a transitional government was put in place. And so, you know, for a little while, people felt like the possibility of a real democracy was on the horizon. Yeah, I guess that's the other side of things that you miss when coverage of a place is really limited, right? Like, you don't always hear enough about these big freedom fights, right? The things that might make people invested in a place's future for more hopeful reasons, right? Exactly. You don't get the good or the bad. Right. Now, Jean, as you probably know, that dream had a major setback. There was a military coup in 2021 that interrupted this hope for a democratic Sudan. You know, a different general assumed power. And so people were left again with this question of where Sudan was going. Was it a country headed toward greater freedoms or one that was fighting its way against this inevitable violent dictatorship? Those questions were still very alive in 2022 when Ismail moved back to Khartoum after spending a few years in the States. He found a studio apartment in a building about two blocks from the presidential palace, you know, right in the bustling downtown. It was full of people from all over the world. And that's where he was exactly three years ago this month. Saturday morning, April 15th, these were the last days of Ramadan at the time. I was getting ready to go out and shop for the upcoming holiday. But as he was getting ready to leave, Ismail started to hear the sound of bullets. And it just got more rapid and louder. I peeked out of my balcony and saw government cars going in the opposite direction, the street that I was overlooking. What had happened is that one of the deadliest wars in Sudanese history had begun. Ismail started recording short videos from his window, which is the sound you're hearing now. But outside of what he could immediately observe, it was hard to get a sense of what was really going on. You know, he was glued to his laptop, reading these conflicting reports of what was happening. And then the electricity went out. A couple days later, the water started going out too. And by the way, Khartoum is a city where temperatures in April regularly get up to like 110, 120 degrees. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. And because of the violence, Ismail said that he and his neighbors wound up being stuck in their building for nine days. We could hear fighter jets above us. We could hear different sounds of different guns. Eventually, Ismail and his neighbors were able to leave the building. And most of them wound up fleeing the country. That's a harrowing story in and of itself, which he's written about. But it is also one small part of this larger reality where many journalists and others wound up leaving Sudan, which is one part of the larger question we're talking about today. You know, like, why has this war gotten so little coverage, relatively speaking? Well, one big reason is that covering the war is extremely dangerous. Sudanese journalists, you know, the first would have been on the scene to cover the conflict. They themselves were displaced. There are, of course, still people in Sudan who continue to document what's happening, but they're often risking their lives to do so. But Leah, okay, yeah, I feel like despite, you know, the obstacles to covering this war, there's still got to be other stuff going on there because I mean, like, okay, if you think about Israel and Gaza, Israel has essentially not allowed international journalists into Gaza for more than two years now, right? That's, and that's still the case. But obviously, there were and are tons of stories coming out of that region. Yeah, that's true. And so I suspected, obviously, there were probably other reasons for the discrepancy. So I called up someone who studies genocide and specifically how genocide that happens in Africa is perceived. And I asked him what he thought was going on. Yeah, this is a question I've been puzzling about. That's Scott Strauss. He's department chair of political science at the University of California, Berkeley. And he told me that when he sees how little attention Sudan is getting right now in the U.S. It's really been shocking and really dispiriting for those of us who follow these things. Okay, but does Scott have a sense of why, though? Yeah, I mean, actually several. So, you know, as I said earlier, I definitely came into this wondering about how racist perceptions of Africans might plan to everything. And Scott said, yeah, he saw that as one element driving all this. It's hard to prove that, but my casual conversations, my perception of years of talking about these issues is that there is a sense that Africans are more violent, like inherently more violent than other people. Scott also said there is a misperception that mass atrocities and genocide happen primarily in Africa, and that is simply not accurate. Other regions of the world are just as prone to mass atrocities and genocide as sub-Saharan Africa is. And in recent times, you know, we have evidence of that. He said, look at Myanmar, Russia, and Ukraine, China, you know, with the Uyghur population. But Gene Scott emphasized that he thinks there's more to the lack of coverage than that. Like, after all, if you think about Myanmar, for instance, that is a place facing a similar lack of coverage. I think this isn't, it's partly an Africa story, but I don't think it's entirely an Africa story. Okay, so what are some of the other reasons that Scott mentioned? There are, you know, really fundamental questions about what's happening in this country that I think lead a lot of people who might otherwise have turned their attention to issues abroad to have really focused domestically. Right, we've got obviously immigration issues, we've got birthright citizenship right now in front of the Supreme Court. We're starting wars with other countries out of nowhere. And because the U.S. gives so much financial assistance to Israel, along with other types of support, like military support, I think a lot of people do start to think and talk about Israel as an issue that is more directly related to those U.S. domestic issues. Like, this is how Abdul-Ali Saeed, who's running for Senate in Michigan, framed his conversations with his constituents last year. I said, hey, would you rather us be spending our money to make sure your kid's school is a dignified place that's going to give him a shot at a future they deserve, or would you rather spend our money buying another country a tank? Right, for a lot of people it's not just that Israel is doing this bad thing, it's like Israel is doing this bad thing, and it's getting a lot of American taxpayer money, American resources to do it. Like, most of the money that we give to Israel goes to its defense. So Trump just asked for one and a half trillion dollars, trillion with a TR, for defense spending next year, right? We've already attacked Venezuela, here he's done an attack, Cuba, so like this is a pocketbook issue for people too. Exactly. Scott Strauss also said that around the world, human rights has been sort of de-centered as an area of focus for a lot of people and organizations. Oh man, I feel like, Leah, that's a whole episode right there in and of itself. I know, I know. We'll get to that sometime. Relatedly, Scott also said that in the past decade or so, the idea that things like war crimes and genocide can be solved with international intervention has become a lot more contested. You know, he brought up Libya in the wake of the Arab Spring, where many people perceived NATO intervention as doing more harm than good. And so I think just making the argument that this is something that we know how to fix and it's got clear solutions, I think that also is really hard right now. And Jean, there's one other piece of all of this that Scott brought up that I think is very important. And it's directly related to the question that our listener raised at the beginning of this episode, which is how rhetoric around Israel and Gaza has shaped how people in the U.S. are talking about everything. Yeah, so I was wondering about this. I remember when we talked about this before, Leah, you were talking about how one of the challenges is some of the genocides is that the Holocaust is the sort of example for people. And so they think that it has to look like that in order to qualify as a genocide. And I've been thinking about that in the context of this conversation. Yeah, I mean, also that's one dynamic. And then the other thing that's happened more specifically with Israel and Gaza is, you know, Scott said that the term genocide has started to be politicized in a way. It's always been political, but it's gotten politicized in a way that it hadn't been in the past. Like on the one hand, it became a term to call Israel illegitimate. And on the other hand, when pro-Palestinian activists tried to raise awareness to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza during this war, and they use language like it's genocide. That was sometimes met with a kind of ferocious response that doing so was anti-Semitic, doing so was a blood libel, doing so was a fundamental insult to Jews. And I think that very acrimonious conversation about whether or not it's genocide or not that was in Gaza, I think that also took the wind out of the sails of this conversation. So it sounds like Scott is saying that the way the country was talking about Israel and Gaza has actually contributed to the lack of attention in Sudan. In a way, yeah. Like, you know, for some people, maybe seeing how those conversations played out has been a bit of a deterrent from waiting into other discussions because the repercussions for doing so as we've seen can be very intense. And so I think it just changed the tenor of the conversation and became a little bit less of a human rights conversation, a little bit less about how do you help people who are suffering on a very large scale and became much more like genocide as a political weapon you use against your opponents. Yeah, that's a lot, Leo. Yes, and that means it's probably time for a break because when we come back, I am going to try and complicate this even more. One thing I've had a really hard time talking to people about with regards to this conflict is that there is no good option. But there is a third way. That's coming up, y'all. Stay with us. This message comes from Bombas. Your feet hit the ground an average of 2,000 times in a mile. Bombas Sports Socks are designed to support you every step. Sprint to Bombas.com slash NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase. Support for NPR and the following message come from Warby Parker, the one-stop shop for all your vision needs. They offer expertly crafted prescription eyewear, plus contacts, eye exams, and more. For everything you need to see, visit your nearest Warby Parker store or head to WarbyParker.com. This message comes from WISE, the app for international people using money around the globe. You can send, spend, and receive an up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart. Get WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. Jean. Leah. Code Twitch. And we are back talking about the war in Sudan and why that war has received relatively little coverage, despite being described as one of the biggest humanitarian crises on the planet right now. That's right. And Jean, there's an element to this story that I think is kind of interesting and confounding, which is that about 20 years ago, Sudan was going through another period of war and claims of genocide. But back then, it was getting tons of attention in the U.S. You know, media coverage, pop culture references, there was a song written. And in 2006, there was a huge rally on the National Mall, where thousands of people and celebrities like George Clooney and Elie Wiesel got together to urge the Bush administration to do something. We know when America comes together, we can stop anything in the world. Okay, so that's obviously Al Sharpton, right? Yep. And he is expressing a point of view that I think a lot of people at the time shared, which was basically that the United States can and should be the saviors in this situation, you know, that they could swoop in and fix things. Let history write that we came together in the first decade of the 21st century and stop genocide in Sudan. Yeah, I remember this time, like, there was a lot of conversation around Darfur, right? Like the Darfur region. Mm-hmm. So to zoom out a whole lot, like, to go really, really wide, can we talk about what exactly was going on in Sudan then, like back then? And like, how was that different or similar to what's happening today? Yeah, for sure. So quick history lesson. In the early 2000s, Sudan is led by this former military officer named Omar Al-Bashir. Mm-hmm. And it's under his rule that a notorious militia group called the Janjewid First Form. Yeah. And they're led by a man named Musa Hilal. The Janjewid became infamous across the world because they were an informal, irregular militia that was conscripted by the then government of Sudan headed by President Omar Al-Bashir to fight against a rebellion. In the Janjewid, this is what I remember about them, were known for being, like, extraordinarily brutal, right? But who's that voice that we deserve? That is Alex Duval, and he's considered one of the world's top experts on Sudanese history. And he told me that the rebellion that the Janjewid was trying to quell was essentially made up of two groups that had accused the Sudanese government of oppressing the country's non-Arab population. Okay. And so for our listeners, it's probably helpful context that Sudan is made up of a bunch of different ethnic groups. But about 70% of the people in Sudan are broadly characterized as Arab, whereas the other 30% are considered ethnically African. Yeah. So in this case, the Janjewid is an Arab militia group, and they're fighting against the ethnically African rebels. And both the rebels and the groups like the Janjewid that were conscripted to fight against them came from the poorest, most marginalized segments of Sudan's society. It was a classic divide and rule, but it was a genocidal divide and rule. So starting in about 2003, hundreds of thousands of people died either from direct ethnically targeted violence or from starvation and disease. Two million people were displaced. So the genocidal campaign happening was the Janjewid working with the government to systematically target these African ethnic groups. And that campaign came to the attention of Americans. So this is where you get all these like celebrities and politicians in the United States piping up, right? Yes. And also the everyday people, you know, death in Darfur becomes something that like normal people are very much aware of and talking about. And in many respects, this is painted as a very straightforward issue that Americans need to get involved with. Today, we know what is right and we know what is wrong. The slaughter of innocence is wrong. That's, who is that? I don't recognize that voice. That's Barack Obama, obviously. Yep. A senator at the time speaking at that same 2006 rally from before. And yes, you know, the slaughter of innocence is wrong. I don't think there's any arguing with that. But Alex Deval says that these issues that had contributed to the violence in Sudan in those days actually were not that simple. Like it wasn't just a matter of good versus evil. It rarely is that cut and draw, right? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, he said while violence in Darfur did eventually die down, the issues that had started the war initially did not go away. That war was left unresolved. There wasn't enough of an attempt to actually address the real root causes. There was a lot of saber rattling and moralizing. Okay, so let's just jump forward about 20 years to where things are today when this current civil war breaks out. That was in April of 2023, so three years ago. Okay, so a very important figure in this time is this guy known as Hamedi. He is the head of the RSF, the Rapid Support Forces, and in the early 2000s, Hamedi was a junior commander of the Janjouid. He then spends years cultivating power and international support. He rented out his militia to fight in Yemen and in Libya. He got money, therefore, from the sponsors of those wars in Saudi Arabia and especially the United Arab Emirates. And Hamedi has gained control of a lot of Sudan's artisanal gold fields, so he's now arguably the richest person in Sudan. So, a few years back, the head of the government told Hamedi that his militia needed to come under the official Sudanese army. And Hamedi was like, nah. Although he didn't have as many soldiers, didn't have as much equipment as the army, he was a very skilled operator both politically, because he had a lot of personal money, and also as a military commander, very ruthless, very capable, deploying a combination of nomadic tribes and the discontented sort of proletariat, the wage laborers who lived out a precarious existence on the margins of the Sudanese economy, who felt deeply frustrated about the political establishment and the wealthier classes. And they unleashed this real reign of terror. So, that reign of terror is what people are talking about when they say that genocide is happening in Sudan. Exactly. But it's worth pointing out that the Sudanese armed forces, you know, the official government army, which side note, very deeply supported by Egypt, they've also been accused of committing widespread war crimes and of targeting civilians. So, both of the sides in this war have a lot of blood on their hands. Okay, so it sounds like there was a bit of a flip that happened over these past 20 years. Like, both civil wars in Sudan have been devastating and destructive. But back in the early 2000s, it was more of a local war that drew a lot of international attention. So, this time it's like a much more international war, but it's not drawing that same level of international or global attention. Exactly. And the people I spoke to said that that lack of attention is definitely a big problem. But, you know, Alex Duvall told me that all that American activism around Sudan in the early 2000s, that didn't actually heal Sudan either. It was really the sort of the one of the high watermark of liberal internationalism, a feeling that these atrocities, wherever they happen in the world, shouldn't be tolerated, and we, the United States, should do all we can to stop them. But in doing that, it also meant imposing a very particular style of action and sort of dictation of what is right and what is wrong, what is possible, what is not possible. That actually just didn't work. And while, no doubt, you know, there was much more evil on one side, the rebels weren't innocent either, and a political solution that brought everyone to the table and moved ahead with democracy and some form of transitional justice was needed. Mae Hessein says that's still the case today. One thing I've had a really hard time talking to people about with regards to this conflict is that there is no good option. And that's really hard to say when one of the sides has been accused of genocide. Mae is a political scientist at MIT and the faculty director of MIT, Africa. She's also of Sudanese descent. Like you mentioned earlier, Jean, you know, she reminds us that what's going on in Sudan cannot be categorized into neat boxes. I think when most people think about civil wars, especially in Africa, the idea is often, oh, there are two ethnic groups pitted against each other, two regional groups, two language groups, and identity is at the heart of that conflict. But the cleavage in Sudan is different. In a lot of ways, it feels like these over-simplifications get applied to a lot of conflicts to help us make sense of them or maybe to nudge us to make sense of them in certain ways. But we frame conflicts around the world as being about ethnicity or territory or identity even. But there are all these different geopolitical dynamics that show up too, which countries have money invested in certain places. Like where are their natural resources? The other countries might feel they need access to. Like what geographic locations are really useful places for other countries to have access? You know what I mean? All of those things shape how we understand like who the good guys are and who the bad guys are in any of these scenarios. The RSF's actions are beyond the pale. They are killing people because of their ethnicity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that SAF, the army, is the shining white knight. And so it's not that I'm defending the RSF. I'm not defending the RSF. But I hate this false equivalency or this false choice that, well, if the RSF is bad, then SAF must be good, that we must support SAF. May said in Sudan there is a real civilian coalition of politicians that is trying to be included in the bargaining process to broker peace. But a lot of Western powers are hesitant to expand the bargaining table. Democracy is messy. Civilians have all these pesky requests like protecting civilians, security sector reform, all these things that are, you know, in the long run, better for society, but harder to implement if you're looking for a short-term peace or something to just get a quick win. But there is a third way, and figuring out a way to incorporate Sudanese civilian voices, that that's a much-sure path to peace than trying to broker some kind of ceasefire agreement between two belligerent parties. That idea might not lend itself all that well to being put on a poster or shouted as a slogan. But again, you know, how well has that worked out for other situations anyway? Like, I want to bring it all the way back to the question we heard at the very beginning of this episode. That question was about why certain claims of genocide have gotten very different levels of attention from the American public. And I think that question has led me to another question, which is, what does that attention do? You know, as Scott Strauss was saying earlier, I think it is important for people to be outraged about outrageous things that are happening in the world. But there's also not like a one-to-one correlation of like public outcry and then violence is stopping. It's obviously much more complicated and not straightforward. Right, right, right. And just to go back to Israel for a second, for all the outcry that's happened around Gaza, now Israel is full steam ahead in Iran and Lebanon, like with the U.S. right there alongside. So it's not like there's been any sort of visible chilling effect on Israel's actions from all this outcry, right? Any sort of like, we haven't seen any policy consequences, at least not yet. And obviously that doesn't mean, you know, we just put our heads in the sand and pretend that nothing is happening. But I think there's kind of like the implication in Ajay's question that more attention is good and less attention is bad. Right. And I think what I've been processing is that the type of attention also matters quite a lot. Yeah, I think one of the things I'm taking from this conversation is that there's a lot of low-key, maybe not even low-key, arrogance that many of us feel is Americans. Like, we get to decide when and where to intervene in the world. We get to be the ones to dictate solutions. And it sounds like, from what the people used to say, the invitation here is for us in the United States to be able to engage with and pay attention to the rest of the world without being the loudest voice in the room. Yeah. And that probably involves fundamentally reorienting ourselves, you know? Thinking less about big, quick wins where Americans are the heroes and more about supporting slow, enduring change where the people involved, you know, in this case, the people of Sudan are the ones who actually get to dictate the solutions. And that is our show. But I just want to remind you that signing up for Code Switch Plus is a great way to support our show and to support public media. You might have heard. You could use your help. And you can tell us into every episode of our show and a bunch of NPR faves. Sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash Code Switch. This episode was produced by Xavier Lopez and Christina Kala. It was edited by Dalya Mordata, and our engineer was Jimmy Keely. And we be remiss if we did not shout out the rest of the Code Switch Massive. That's Jess Kong. That's B.A. Parker and that's Jelanda Sangweni. Special thanks also to Kate Timoni, Dirk Moses and Tim Langeal. And thanks again to Ajay Nelson for your question. As for me, I'm Gene Dembe. And I'm Leah Danella. Be easy-o. This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Spring travel coming up. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? 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