Paying Homage to Black Women in Reality TV With Rachel Lindsay

We're not a monolith. Having watched other black women on shows, I know that there is a certain stereotype that to be entertaining, to be the star, they want you to fit a certain stereotype. I wasn't fitting in one of those stereotypes. Welcome to Popsyllabus. I'm your host, Christiana Mbakley-Medina. Black women are behind some of the most iconic lines, moments and memes that have come out of reality TV. Their presence and portrayal hasn't just shaped an entire television genre, but sparked a bigger conversation about what these images mean. To help us understand the how and the why, today I'm sitting down with media personality, author and attorney, Rachel Lindsay, the first African-American bachelorette. Rachel, Lindsay, welcome to Pop Syllabus. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I don't think you understand. First and foremost, I'm a huge reality TV show fan. I'm with you. Okay. And I'm a particularly big fan of you as a reality TV icon, because I think you coming onto the scene like shifted so many things. And this is a show where we like deconstruct the zeitgeist and we make sense of things and we have lots of theories. That's what the audience is like. And I feel like you foreshadowed a lot and you also shifted things. Oh, thank you. different direction. So today I want to talk about not just your experience in reality TV, but also what you meant, what you represented and like kind of how you pointed to where we were heading. And then macro trends with women in reality TV. Sure, sure. Let's get into it. Let's get into this. I think to kind of set the stage, there's this like fundamental dichotomy or paradox that exists in reality TV. Yeah. You are showing reality, somebody's truth, but there's an element of performance. Sure. Because there are cameras there. Sure. Right? This is also heightened by the fact that our introduction to you is in like the Bachelor Nation subculture, which we'll get into. Yes. And I know that you say that you had never watched an episode of The Bachelor before you went on the show in 2016, right? Yes. I never watched a season. I said yes before watching. And then when I said yes, I was like, maybe I should see a season before. yeah and so i started watching ben's season and i cried i was like i don't think i'm so i'm so dramatic animated as i like to say i started crying i was like i don't think i can get out of this i don't think this is a good idea i don't think i'm gonna get along with these women i don't think that i can handle like talking to the camera being so forward i don't know what i was thinking because love reality shows were not my thing okay what shows were you into like the all the vh1 like A Flavor of Love, I Love New York. What was it called? For the Love of, what was Ray J? For the Love of Ray J. Okay, it was For the Love of Ray J. All of that. And then, of course, the housewives, as they were, you know, I'm an OG housewife. Okay, same. Yeah. So, nothing love. Okay, not a one. But, because you had, like, if I'm, correct me if I'm wrong, some co-workers were like, you would be great to be on this show. Yes. And you were like, sure. And I was like, no, I was like, why? I said to them, I don't watch the show. Yeah. And we know that black people don't go far. I literally said this. And this was two white women. And they looked at me and they said, if you do it, you'll go far. See, there's always that white woman at your job that puts you on game. You know, there's always that one. And they were right. I am so grateful to them. Big them up. They saw something in me that I didn't see. They were super fans of the show. They were like, tryouts are down the street. You should do it. And I just had this deep feeling within me that was like, you need to do it. You need to do it. I can't describe to you what it was. Was it like spiritual? Definitely spiritual. God, like you just felt like this is what you're supposed to do. I felt drawn to do it. I don't even know if I thought I would get it. I just was like, you can't not go to this audition. Yeah, yeah. And I've never really felt like that before. Powerful. Yeah. So I'm curious, how did you balance that tension between, from what I'm hearing, this was kind of like a spiritual experience, saying like, I'm drawn to this. I'm going to answer this call. Right. And so you go, you do the audition, you get in. You're showing your truth. This is a very truthful thing to you. But the cameras are there. There's a performance. And also it's like romance. Because I'm going to say like, you know, that Chris Rock joke about how when you're dating, you're dating someone's representative for the first. There's an element of just romance, marriage, whatever it is, it is performance. It's gender performance. it's like it's it you know you have to be nice sometimes if you want your husband to buy you a handbag of course you know what i mean of course so there's an element of just romance where it's like i'm not not that i'm not being myself oh i i lie a bit yeah at the beginning i'm not myself yeah like you're you're afraid a little bit to like be vulnerable vulnerable right so you're i'm i guess the meta narrative of it like reality show involves performance but romance also involves of performance but I am here being me. On The Bachelor it was different because I had no, I just didn't know what, even if I had watched those couple of episodes and I cried, I did not know what the experience was going to be like and I think the pressure was taken off me because being black on this show, knowing the history of black women in particular on the show, I was just kind of like, I came off a bad relationship, I needed an escape, let's just see what happens. That was kind of my whole move. It says that of the 30 contestants, you were the only black woman to make it to the final four. The final four. I ended up final three. And I was the first black woman to get the first impression rose. I remember I asked that. That's when I started to be a little bit more vulnerable. I was walking around two producers saying, who told him to give me this rose? Who told me that? And they were like, Rachel, relax. He wanted to give it to you. And I remember, so the first night, you don't spend it in the mansion. And I remember going back to my room, and you get to sleep all day because you've been up all night. And I had the rose on my chest. And it was like, it was so weird. It's weird to say this out loud. I just was like, maybe this is real. Like, maybe he did want to give it to me. I didn't think I was going to get married. It just kind of was like, okay, maybe I'll stop being so uptight. And I'll just allow myself to fall into the journey. Just be in the flow of the thing. And let it take me where it's going to take me, with friendship, with love, with romance. And I let my guard down a little bit after that day. And I don't know if it would have been different for me if I had not received that confirmation or validation with the rose. But I did. And I had the best time. I feel like I'm jumping ahead. But to that thing about you letting your guard down, the reason I think you're so important is because you showed vulnerability in a romantic setting, which is a thing that me and my girlfriends talk about, that black women, we struggle with for valid reason. but you were very textured. It was out the gate, you were like, this is who I am. I'm this attorney, I'm smart, I'm confident, but you're also like, this hurts, this is who I am. You were open-hearted in this process in a way that it's hard for, I think, a black woman to do in that, especially in a white majority cast. Yes, we wanna be vulnerable, that's the thing. A strong black woman, which I'm not a person who's anti that statement, but at the same time, I wanna be vulnerable, but to be vulnerable, you have to feel safe. And so I felt not safe in that moment, but kind of like, like I said, validated. So at that point I decided to let myself go. But again, the pressure was off. Like we knew who he was into. So I was just kind of like, I'm just gonna have fun with it. And maybe I was having a little too much fun. What do you mean by too much fun? I mean, at one point they pulled me to the side, cause I didn't know they were interested in me as a bachelorette. They pulled me to the side and they were like, um, how much did you drink today? and I was just kind of like I'm just I mean you're so much downtime and I loved the women from my season okay I'm still close I have dinner tonight with two of them all right I'm I do those are your friends for real yes yeah not all of them but most of them I just was having just a blast and I was taken aback by the how meaningful the time was with the women that I was forgetting oh wait you're actually here Rachel to fall in love this is music to my ears because I the thing I struggle with romance shows it's like the male centeredness of it all yeah we did not just you're like hey we're gonna make friends let him do what he does but we're here for i like the camaraderie and there's the vulnerability of the friendship too i was like i'm not here to make friends i'm just kind of here to see what happens so i was being vulnerable in friendship and in romance at the same time which is really nice it's interesting you say that thing about um making friends with your castmates. There's a professor at Syracuse University named Professor Rachel Dabrowski, who does this like really fascinating research into pop culture, reality TV. And she showed in her research that when black and white women are cast alongside each other in reality shows, society's racism kind of get replicated and black women end up driving white women's narrative within the shows and basically facilitating their romantic conquests. your season of the bachelor aired in 2017 yes but you taped it in 2016 we all know what happened in this country in 2016 we don't have to get too much into it um did you feel some of that dynamic of like you have being there to you know drive other people's narratives did you feel that in the bachelor or was that because you're saying you came away with friends so i'm really curious i had a very particular experience which is also why you know like as we continue talking I knew I had a responsibility. I knew I didn't know that I was going to be the bachelorette. My mind really wasn't thinking that that's the goal or that I even wanted it. I remember the women on the season would tell me, you're going to be the bachelorette. You're going to be the bachelorette. And I was like, guys, like, I really kind of want to see where this goes. Please stop saying that they all could see how I was kind of being treated or protected. They're kind of grooming you in a way for it. Uplifted. Yeah. So they saw it. So I had a very particular experience where the narrative kind of was around me a little bit as well. I didn't really drive anyone's narrative. The girl who had the most drama. I love this. I was older. So I was kind of like, guys, at 23, I was her. I would have been doing that. I would tell her that. And I kind of took her under my wing and I didn't understand why people were picking on her. So I took a little bit of a mom role. I think I was very outspoken. People were kind of like, oh. So I didn't get that. Like even the 2016 of it all, we started filming in September. I made it to the end. So when the election happened, I was still filming. I actually, it's why my fantasy suite was a disaster because I wanted to talk. My fantasy date was the day after the election. So I was like, did we see what happened? Does anybody want to talk about it? They're like, Rachel, you can't. So I drank. And then I passed out in the fantasy suite, which is why nothing happened. I don't think you're the only person who drank that night. whatever side you are a lot of people are drinking i was like are we i just couldn't and then so when i even got kicked off i was like i cannot believe i'm about to go into a world where this is the new reality yeah we were so you're so far removed from it all but to answer to come back to it i i didn't have that experience but i know black women who did yeah i really know they did so i yeah it was different for me and this is why i think that your time as a reality star was very subversive because your experience on The Bachelor was distinct. And then you go and do The Bachelorette, which I think is subversive because you are a black woman who's the object of desire, which is something we don't see depicted on screen that much anyway. Not just the object of desire, but like romantic pursuit. You're also doing the choosing. Do you know what I mean? Very powerful. Things that just we don't see all together at once. And then on top of that, being the first. You talk about you come from a family of firsts, your father's a judge and he was the first, many things. What was that like? I knew I was gonna be the first, but because I didn't watch the show and my circle of friends and my family didn't, I didn't realize how big of a deal it was going to be. And then it went everywhere, everywhere. Like the world I felt was talking about it. And it scared me because now I'm like, I knew it was big that I was a first. I did not realize how many people were watching And how were they watching me Were they watching me to support me Were they watching me to judge me Were they waiting for me to make a mistake Did I need to be hard Did I need to be soft Did I need to be more pro Did I need to tone down my blackness? It was all coming at me at once. And I just remember my mom being like, they didn't want me to be bachelorette. They didn't care that I was on the bachelor, but I think they could see the gravity of the situation before or understand it more than I was in the moment. I'm very impulsive. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it now. And I talked to my mom. She just was like, you know who you are. Come from a religious family. She's like, you know whose you are. Just trust your gut through it. And so then I just was like, I'm going to be unapologetically myself. I'm going to stay true to who Rachel is. And you can take with that what you want. I'm going to be me. So if I'm too, too black for you, that's your problem. If I'm not black enough, that's your problem. If I pick this person, you know, and it's not who you want me to pick, that's your problem. I just was like, the only way I'm going to survive this is staying true to who I am. That's why I'm so grateful I was 31 coming into it. Yeah, that's a great, perfect age. Then in my 20s. I couldn't have done that. I had a career already. So I knew who I was. I wasn't trying to be another bachelorette. I couldn't. I was the first. The closest thing I knew to a black woman doing the choosing was Tiffany Pollard, who I watched. I love New York. She says she's the first black Bachelorette, and she is. She is. Do you know what? I want to jump ahead a bit because the time this occurred, like 2016 to 2017, you mentioned how you're like an OG reality TV viewer, and your circle were not watching the show you were about to be on, right? This is peak Real Housewives of Atlanta. This is peak Basketball Wives. This is like Love and Hip Hop, Atlanta. All of that is happening. did you feel like you were in conversation with these shows did you think about what those shows represented and I want to get into the respectability politics of it or a bit later yeah but like thinking about the reason it was a big deal that you were the first is because black women were in romance in other shows yeah you know that was that's a very familiar trope like Nini and Greg yes you know I mean all of these couples but it was because you were cast in The Bachelor so yeah did you see yourself in conversation with these other shows or this like okay this is a different journey this is completely new terrain yeah and this is a type of story that gets leaked to the hollywood reporter yeah i knew that i was in a different conversation because to your point they had love but it was in black spaces with black majority black audiences and i knew that i was in a white world i knew that people were seeing me or a black woman to your point with power making the like choosing in this way i knew that or making the decision to choose men and having the power to do so and the freedom to do it, I knew that I was picked because of my resume. I knew that they looked at it and they said, and I was told this without telling this, that of course, well, one, I was told it had to be a black woman before a black man because they're not going to be okay seeing a black man wake up with a white woman in a fantasy suite. And if you do watch Matt James season, you see that they didn't show that part. so I knew that I they could digest me in a in a easier than they could you were legible in a way yeah to just the black woman oh yeah caring okay I was a lawyer I was older I had a father who was a judge you know I went to these schools I knew that it was like okay well if we're gonna pick a first she makes sense she knows how to act in these spaces how does that feel I've been in that place my whole life. Only black woman at my law firms at times. Only black woman in my friend circles. Only black woman in my classroom sometimes at, because I had a smaller major, at University of Texas. I went to a small Christian white school, predominantly white school, my entire life. I'm so used to that. So I knew how to do it, but I knew how to do it and still be black. I knew how to do it and not pretend to be something that I wasn't. That's the only reason I ended up saying yes, because I was like, if they're going to do this, I know I could do it right. I know that I wouldn't lose myself or try to be like somebody on a different show. So to answer your question, I knew it was different for me. I knew that I was gonna have a different audience, a different eye. Yeah, so I knew I wasn't in conversation. And knowing that from like a very cynical advertising perspective, they're like, she is digestible. She's palatable. She's safe. But you knowing in yourself that, well, actually I'm, my politics, I'm like a lot more pro back than you would think. How do you deal with that? Because I know some people, it gives them a complex, right? It makes them feel insecure in their blackness, that they are seen as a palatable version of blackness, even though it's like, actually it's more textured than what you know. I loved it because we're not a monolith. Having watched other black women on shows, I know that there is a certain stereotype that to be entertaining, to be the star, they want you to fit a certain stereotype. I wasn't fitting in one of those stereotypes. Now, at the end, I ended up becoming that. But in the beginning. And the stereotype you became at the end for people at home that may not know. Angry black woman. I became an angry black woman by the time in my finale. They had me on stage three hours. They had never done this before. Watching my finale for, I'd seen it. I got every episode early except for that. They had me watch it to get a reaction out of me. And I didn't even say anything wrong. I just said, or angry or curse. I just said to a white man, well, just so you know, I'm living. He told me to live a mediocre life, that I was going to have that if I didn't choose him. And so on stage I said, well, just so you know, I'm living my best life. People lost their minds. Producers came running to me during the commercial break. You need to calm down. Chris Harrison leaned over to me and he was like, you know, just relax. I would have been so enraged. I don't know how you kept it together. I just, I had to. As black women, we know that. And it's not that I said anything wrong. I said the truth. He actually said something worse to me. But it was because I said, I showed a little bit of an attitude. They were like, oh, she must have, we watched her edit it. This is who she really is. So I became the angry black woman. But I knew that it doesn't bother me that I was considered safe because people need to see that, again, you know, we had these conversations in 2020. We're not all a monolith. All black people don't have the same walk, same journey in this life. And I was happy that I could present myself in that way and still be a black woman. I knew that I could pick and choose, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to play this game until I don't have to, until I'm not under contract. I'm here for a reason. I was chosen. And again, when you said my dad, I saw how to work the system. I saw that once you're in the space, now use your power in ways that other people can't to lift other people up. And it might sound silly saying it from this love show, The Bachelor, but it's had real impact, I believe. Oh, massive impact. But I don't think anybody saw that at first. But that's what happens when you're first. There's this responsibility that comes with it. To keep the door open. Exactly. Keep the door open. Exactly. I spoke about it earlier about how like you contain a lot of foreshadowing and futurism in you. And you spoke about how the fact that it had to be a black woman first. Right. Let's say now we're in 2026. This is 2016 to 2026. Last year on the cover of Glamour magazine, we had a couple, Nick and Alandria, right, from Love Island fame, an interracial couple. If you look at the biggest couples on TikTok and Instagram, we're talking about Nara Smith and Lucky. We're talking about Prince Harry and Meghan. In a pop culture sense, there is something people are finding narratively compelling about the pairing of a beautiful black woman with a handsome white man. Can you speak to that and how you were kind of ahead of the moment in a way of like, this is became aspirational content also on TikTok. I don't know what your algorithm is showing you, but during 2020, it was just a bunch of young black women trying to get what they perceived as a high value man. And that was a white man. And I'm like, yeah, there's something there was something in the zeitgeist. OK, I love I don't watch Love Island, but I mean, everywhere you go, Alandria is everywhere. I'm very familiar with their story. And I love that they can not just be that, but people are aspiring to be them. They're everywhere. They're an it couple. It wasn't like that for me when I came off the show. Not that I had a whole lot of criticism, because I think people were really happy that I was the first. But, I mean, my blackness was in question. I still get questioned about it. Oh, yeah. Like, you can't talk about that because you picked a white man. And now it's you picked a white man who took your money. you know so well we could that yeah like i yeah i'm dumb i didn't get a prenup i get that but um it i'm happy that i did it yeah and then now i'm looking at her and they are people love them they have their own nickname we didn't have a nickname you know what i mean it's just it's so nice to see that it's more i don't want to say accepted i'm sure that they get their haters but It's just that they're getting, it's a goal that people have. One of the things that I would say when I was doing media and talking about it was before I went on the show, and I wrote about this in my book, that I had a particular man that I wanted. He was only black. I felt like no one could understand me like a black man. And as I got into my 30s and I'm looking around at my friends, it's like, why am I possibly denying myself love from other people just because I think that this is what I'm supposed to or only this type of man can understand me. So I say I threw out my list and I was like, I'm just gonna go off of energy and who I'm compatible with. And that was my mindset going into The Bachelorette. And I wanted to give women the freedom of, I know you feel like, and I think this is also within us as black women, we have to protect our black men. I think you can still do both, but then also find love for yourself and it doesn't have to look a certain way. And I wanted women to say, you can still love your black man, but there might be love for you and it might look different and that's okay and we shouldn't be afraid to say that. I think we as black women are more scared to do that than I see other races do that. Yeah, definitely. So I wanted women to say, just go find love and just be loved and don't worry about what people think. You can still be true to yourself. And so I feel like, And maybe that was something that happened with it. But I also wanted women to see that black women can be adored by, it doesn't just have to be a black man, it can be anyone. And we know historically that within our social caste system, not even historically now, within this country, black women are at the bottom. And so you feel like the only people who can love you are maybe your own, or maybe that's all that you've seen, and that's not necessarily the truth. And so to see a Nick and a Landria, just to show that black women, we aren't at the bottom. We can be loved. We are beautiful. We can be respected. And to see that affirmed, I think that is it's really, really nice. Well, I want to get to like the I would say the darker side, because I'll tell you about my my reality TV habits. Like it ranges from like Zeus Network. No. Yes. I love me some baddies West. trust me like my friends are always like christiana get me off your f1 oh yeah i am in the gut like it's i'm in the tlc universe like i watch like sister wives i like i consume so much like my first entry was a big brother uk as a kid okay so like i just got hooked and like my parents are very churchy so i wasn't allowed to consume any pop culture so then like once i got a taste i was like give me more give me more yeah yeah yeah and so like back in 2015 there was a study by media mark research and intelligence that showed black women were 59% more likely to watch reality-based programming. So like we, we very much over index. And, um, there's a sociologist, Danielle Lindemann, who states that she feels that reality shows caters to the white male gaze. Right. And I think that, and this idea that women are internalizing female objectification. I don't necessarily agree with that, but you watch some of the shows where there is the all violence That is the most that the biggest theme There going to be a brawl There going to be drinks thrown And it's women in relationships that are like really abusive. Like I struggled with the Love and Hip Hop Atlanta seasons at times when I was like Jocelyn and Stevie. I was like, this is abuse. Jocelyn and Stevie, you know what I mean? And that was like, those were some of the most famous couples on television at that time. And so people say like it just reinforces the Sapphire and the Jezebel stereotypes. And there's a real objection to reality TV and especially the way black women are portrayed in it. What do you feel about like that side of the universe? Because honestly, that is probably the most frequent portrayal that we'll see. Oh, it is. It is. I mean, I was trying to do a series at one time called Being Black on Reality TV. and I wanted to dive into, like I was reading these articles that have been written about how you have to fit into a certain stereotype to be entertaining or for white audiences, or just non-black, I should say, to understand you because they've been programmed to only see you a certain way. So if you're not, they're like, wait a minute, is that real? I'm confused by that. You know, like think about the Huxtables. I remember when I watched them, I felt, I was like, oh my gosh, I feel, this is like my family. I feel, I feel seen. That's how I felt as well. You know, like, and look how popular that show was. But we're so far removed from that, particularly in reality TV. That is not depicted. I'm really, I'm sure there's a show out there that shows it. I was actually going to say, I think that you, if we trace your lineage, you're in the lineage of The Run's House. Yes. I would say. T.I. and Tiny's early seasons of their show. Yeah. T.I. and Tamara's reality show, which is like, Oh yeah. Remember, it's like very wholesome. They're arguing over like, am I going to have a marquee tent at my wedding day if it's going to rain? But you know what? They're like, T.I.'s a rapper. Run is a rapper. Run's a rapper. They're actresses. It's like you don't really see the corporate reality TV family. And how entertaining would that be? Ostensibly, Married to Medicine is supposed to be like that, right? They're all doctors, but they fight a lot. But I get it. But, you know, that's also not as entertaining, you know? So I understand the argument behind it. It's one of the reasons I said yes and wanting to go on because I knew that I would be a different representation. And I think that you are starting to see, like, yes, it's there. We both watch it. But I think you're starting to see more of those stories told, maybe even on a Traders, that they're not necessarily fitting into these stereotypes. Sharp, intelligent, like it's a different, yeah. It's a different story. So I feel like that's growing. I mean, look at Bo's on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. so you're starting to see more of these stories told I think that there's a dark side to everything exactly I think that there are we didn't have these examples before and part of the journey that I wanted to go on was in talking to some of these people I wanted to talk to a Cardi B I wanted to talk to some of these women from Flavor of Love at the beginning was did you play into did you perform for the system did you use the system or did the system use you look at where Cardi B is I could make an argument that she used, she played into some of this to get some of the success that she has. So I, the internal, like the objectification of it, it's there for sure. We get judged in a different way because it's happening to non-blacks too on television. We're just judged more in an unfair way. But I struggle with, well, maybe they're using it to get something greater. I mean, look at Natalie Nunn. Yeah. Look at what she's doing. Building a mini empire. So I can't say that I'm against it if this is your tool to change your entire life. Do I always love it? No. But I can't be mad at the hustle. That's what I really wanted to explore. And I'd be interested in talking to some of these black women on TV because I wonder, did you use it for something good? I think this is my opinion. I think they are deeply cognizant of how they're perceived. I think Cardi B is a great example because she started as a stripper. And I think sex workers see the capitalist structure in a very raw way. They understand it in ways that we don't give them credit because of just how bigoted we are as a society. But I think she just has a very transactional way of how I show up and perform and what you're going to give me in return. And I think she was cognizant in that in love and hip hop and every single move she's plotted afterwards. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, the only time I don't think that, I agree with you, I think people know that they're playing a character or a role. They know that they're cast for a certain reason. The only time I have an issue with it is when you whitewash your blackness. That's the only time where I feel like, and I've seen that a bit on The Bachelor, to fit in, and you see it more when it's on a white show, but that's the only time where I'm like, what are you trying to be? Why are you trying to water yourself down or soften yourself? What stereotype are you trying to fit in to do that? That's the only time I have an issue with it. It's interesting because a professor, Raquel Gates, she wrote an op-ed for the New York Times. And she said, reality TV gives us an unfiltered window onto the capitalist and ideological structures that make up all media. Open quote, ratchet, close quote, reality TV shows are already in the metaphorical gutter. Yet this may be a blessing rather than a curse. as they are unburdened by the limitations of being quote unquote positive representations. And that is the power of these shows, their ability to help us explore what it means to navigate life as people of color in all of its fraught, messy, and yes, sometimes ratchet realities. I found that very compelling and powerful. I agree. I wrote about this in my book because I felt sometimes that maybe I was consuming this TV, but maybe like reality TV before I went on it. Maybe I was a little judgmental. Like, oh, why are they doing that on TV? Why are they representing themselves that way? And then a lot of, the other side of me was jealous that they had the freedom to do it because I lived a life where I always felt like I had to fit in the box. The respectability politics of it all. There is a beauty in saying, I'm not gonna be the type of black that you want me to be or you're telling me that I should be to make you feel comfortable. I'm gonna do it this way. whether it's a performance, whether it's the reality. So I agree with that. Like I absolutely do. And it's, we should be able to be, you know, here I am saying like I'm so anti-Zeus, but that's like a whole nother conversation for me. But I do love that they have the freedom to be like, you can call me ratchet if you want. This is what I'm going to do. Because no one's doing that to you on the other side of things. You know, we watch these housewife shows or whatever it may be. They're cursing at each other. They're going to jail. They're criminals. They're throwing drink in their face. They're talking about doing drugs in the bathroom. Nope. They're laughing at it. It's funny. Yeah. It's oh, it's so silly. Oh, they're so crazy. Where we get more negative terms when when we do the exact same thing. it's it's complicated for me right because on the one hand I consume it just because I love it's entertaining I love lowbrow stuff that's the truth I just like lowbrow stuff yeah yeah but I will say that I think if my daughters grew up and did that I would feel some type of way about it right like I would feel if like my girls grew up and they're on tv and they're brawling and they're throwing drinks yeah and they're getting drunk oh my god i don't think i'd get out of bed but then that is my own stuff yeah right that's my own stuff that's my own ego that's just my own nigerian british cultural coding that's like the church in me that'd be like oh my god i have failed um but something that you touched on is that these women are like liberated and perhaps they're liberated in ways that make us feel uncomfortable yeah but it's are they being stereotypical or are they just like unbound in a way like not to use tony morrison and sula but like just they're like i'm not i don't perform for that crowd yeah and this performance i'm doing that i feel it benefits me and it's the truest version of me like i i really don't have to hustle or it's their hustle you know that's why it's like are you using this just to move on to the next thing you know natalie went from none went from bad girls club loved that show to now being like a producer running shows I don't know if she's directing showrunner she's like building an empire so in a sense she used it and was able to transform into something else and still be Natalie Nunn like I feel like she was fighting doing a ring fight recently oh she is always fighting and even if I don't agree with it and it might be like you said some of my own you know I'm internalizing certain things or the way I grew up or being judgmental I might not agree with it, but you also can't deny what she's done. I can't deny it at all. And I do think there are, for Frank, very limited pathways for black women in entertainment. Right. And I just think for women in general, reality TV is one of the few spaces that are like a woman over 40 knows she can get casted. Like Garrett, like the house. I don't know what the median age of a housewife is, but it's probably significantly higher than like a network, regular network TV show with a casted actress. So this is one of the few places that you can get in like a quote unquote lower barrier to entry. I don't think there is actually. I think it's actually really hard. It's like thinking you can blow up as an influencer. But, you know, you know, but you see more of yourself than, say, in film or scripted television. And as a path to something, I'm like, Natalie now has this mini empire, as you say. Or like Mimi, what Mimi's built for her? Like she is a legend. yeah you know um and so it's it's toggling those two things but well i'm curious about you what are your top reality shows right now like what are you consuming i watch a lot of bravo okay and not much outside of it okay your top five brother brother i okay real housewives of potomac one you put potomac up oh we're doing it in order yeah of what's on tv right now yeah okay Not historically. What you're watching right now, top five. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I mean, it just went off, but that would be number one. Real Housewives of Potomac. Two. It's ending so well. Oh, yeah. The trip with Angel. Yeah. Complete disaster. Colorado saved the whole season. It saved the whole season. My friend said that. Okay. And then we're getting Karen on the last episode. And then Wendy embezzling. Allegedly. Allegedly. I think my good sister's innocent. I'm going to back her. That is a hot take. Because that's all I'm sorry. But Potomac is really turning out. Narratives on and off. Even with all the colorism stuff, you can still put. Because I find that the most, I think it's a show about class and colorism. It's definitely about class. The colorism, for sure. But I don't know if it's like as much anymore. Okay. Because when Wendy came, it was so apparent. Stark, yeah. Oh, it was so apparent. And now that she's kind of in the mix of things, it's a little bit, it's there. It's always there. It's an issue. And it's like a conversation that, you know, I wish, I think I talked about it on Watch What Happens Live because I was like, I wish I could have been there to have the conversation instead of Andy. But also, how would that have been received in that space? I think you would have been a good neutral party. I think you would have been a great envoy. because I need I need them to realize that you are guilty of some of it too and I think that they don't they don't you know they don't I don't think it's deliberate that's why I don't think it's like a deliberate like wherever here it's just like just the way that colorism shapes the black community is like really showing up on that show in a way that I don't I've never seen it on Atlanta yeah it definitely didn't happen on Atlanta but there's also a different makeup on atlanta we have potomac salt lake city is up there salt lake city potomac atlanta okay i can't give that to i can't give it to beverly hills or oc or new york jersey's not on i i'm like what am i so you're not doing much bravo really because if it's just salt lake city and potomac that's all that on right now i mean i watching uh the valley is a valley is a top show housewives of And Miami do you watch that one A top one Bump out It might be Miami Salt Lake City then Potomac for me Why is that Miami is those women are I do not think they performing No, no, no, I agree. And they are, it is. It's Fly on the Wall documentary. It feels Fly on the Wall, right? Like with the divorce stuff, their beef stuff, like kids. They're funny without knowing they're funny. They're having affairs with each other behind the scenes. cheating on their wives it's so good yeah it's so good um yeah it's it's just all the housewives really right now and maybe the valley the valley i know i'm gonna regret i'm gonna watch this back and i'm going i'm going to regret i don't think that you've forgotten anything that is on air right now but if we had to say your top three of all time like ever all reality shows all seasons you can go back in the day real housewives you can go like white remember white refrigerator like Atlanta is to me the all-time best housewife franchise. I know it's lost its way, but Atlanta is my all-time. If I'm going to do Bravo show, period, it is Real Housewives of Atlanta. The OG shows, I mean, Real World is Real World. It raised us. That's in a bucket of its own. The lessons I was learning, I'm learning about addiction through Real World, secretly watching it. It's just amazing. So that's it by itself. I'm going to say this because I also, it's on the top of my mind because they just released a trailer and I cannot wait to watch it. America's Next Top Model was giving us... Oh, you know what? We always forget about it in the conversation. You're right. But it was... I don't know if you've seen the trailer. Tyra Banks is talking. You look like Kenya, by the way. Kenya from America's Next Top Model. Oh, you think so? Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. It was, it took the world by storm. We were addicted to that show. The ghosties and, in my old flatmate, when we used to get the posts, we used to go, it's Tyra Mail! That was a whole, it's Tyra Mail! I mean, it was insane. And I think if social media maybe had been, because it started before Instagram. It was pre-social, that's true. Instagram, I mean. So, America's Next Top Model, Real Housewives of, Rise of Atlanta, And Flavor of Love. Flavor of Love. Flavor of Love started something. I mean, The Bachelor was already existing, but the other shows were coming and going. You know, Joe Millionaire, or there were some other shows here and there. And there were makeover shows like The Swan, and you know, there was all of that extreme makeup, like there was a plastic surgery of it all. Yes. But like Flavor of Love. Flavor of Love, we had never seen anything like it. Never. It was very diverse. Yes, it was. It gave us Tiffany Pollard, who I think would be on Mount Rushmore of reality TV stars. Then it created For the Love of Ray J. I don't think we would have- Charm School. Charm School, Rock of Love. I don't think that we would have had a love in hip hop if we hadn't had a flavor of love. I will make that argument. So it's like from that sprung other shows. That's what I'm trying to say. Atlanta, that's not the case because we had OC first. But because of Atlanta, we have a Potomac. We have maybe Basketball Wives because of that. We have Basketball Wives was a time too. Basketball Wives was a time. Yeah. So this is what I want to ask. Given everything you've been through, knowing everything you know about reality TV and women, specifically black women, to the young girl listening at home, who's considering... Being on reality TV. What would you tell her? I can't tell you not to do it. Because people used to ask me, would you want your daughter to go on TV? And I'm like, I don't know if I want them to be on The Bachelor. That's a heavy question. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know if I'd want them to be on The Bachelor. But I can't tell you not to do it. My advice would just be, I think you have to go in knowing what you want to be. It's out of your control of how you're going to be portrayed. that's like they will put you they will cast you into a certain role but I think you have to have a goal going in for me my goal was I knew I was going to be a first so it was a little bit easier but what can I can I do with this moment do I just say oh I made it and pull up the ladder behind me do I keep the door open do I use this platform to you know do other things that I want to do I knew exactly it's why I didn't go on other reality shows. It's why I didn't do my own reality show. All these things were offered to me. And if it had been up to my ex, that's what that's the life we would have lived. But for me, I knew it was bigger than that. So I would say if you're going in have a mission. If your mission is you're on a love show to find love, fine. But know what you want to do after that know the image that you want, I guess people to have of you after you can't control what they see but then you know if you want to be on tv another show if you want to be you know I don't know have a podcast if you want just like have a goal going in I think that's how you get lost is if you don't have a plan whatever it may be and it's fine if you just want to be a reality tv star and that's how you want to be portrayed but have a plan because so many people will say oh I want to do what you're doing or how did you transition from this to this I had a plan I had a goal. It might have been a little easier for me because I was a first, but I've seen other people take it and do something with it. Taylor Hell from Big Brother, you know, she called me after her show and I gave her advice. We talked and I think that she is flourishing. Like I love watching her do her thing. Have, you know, just have a plan. Don't let, don't let, it's what I said earlier. Don't let the system use you. Use the system for your benefit, whatever that may be. play the game use it as a hustle and i think that that's the only way that you can survive it okay before you go i hear you're writing a book i want to hear a bit of yes what you can tell us yes okay so the third book my divorce there's been a lot that people have been saying about my divorce and i haven't really said a lot maybe a couple of digs here and there on my podcast but I saw your Instagram post her body looks great and the caption is tell them the caption the caption is what did I something like now I'm no more it was something about money now I'm free it was a karma song and oh my gosh why can I not think of what the caption was but I I definitely it was like I'm free but basically our girl is no longer paying spousal support or alimony one of the two yeah and you alluded to that I was like writing the next chapter Yeah, people in the Instagram comments are like, are you free, girl? I'm free. I'm free. And I feel, you know, like I felt powerless that I didn't have a prenup and he took so much for me. But I feel powerful that I was able to do it in a year. Like I paid you off. I'm still here. I'm still surviving. So I wanted to make. You're better than me. I would have just not. One thing about me. Not paid? I can't give a man money. I'm Nigerian, girl. I'm Ibo. I can't give no man money. Ugh, it's hard. He was ruthless about it. There was no compromising. and I want to write all about it. I do want to tell that story, but I want the divorce book that I was looking for. I want to talk about another book of essays, but my first book was not a tell-all. I didn't spill tea. You didn't. There was a couple of things that I said. This will be different. Oh, I love tea. I want to tell you in each essay a story of what happened, a story of I want a chapter on community. I want a chapter about the shame I felt. I want a chapter about societal pressures as to it was kind of a perfect storm to why I ended up moving forward through marriage. Do you think the churchiness in you influenced you being like, this is something I should do? Shacking up, living together. I'm 30. I was 34 when I got married. I'm like, I should, according to my timeline, I should have kids. The narrative that I couldn't be loved because I focused so much on career. All of that was in me where I was like, well, this is a good person. So I thought. So I want to talk about that. I want to talk about being intimate for the first time. I want to talk about dating in my 40s. Now I'm 40. I was 30, 9, 8, 9 when I got divorced. What does that look like? I want to talk about fertility. I've never told that story. So there's so much. Like my ex did a terrible YouTube show. And he told stuff that was personal. So, you know, you opened the door. So let's talk about it. This could have gone completely different. but I've, you know, it could have been a private divorce. We could have done, had private mediation. We could have had a private judge. I could have given you money secretly. You could have held on to your reputation, all of it. That is not what happened. And I feel like it didn't happen in the same way that the reason that I feel like I was chosen as the first, there was a reason for that, for what I could do with it. My divorce was public and messy for a reason. Learned from me. You know, it's not as simple as getting a prenup. It's just the pressures that we feel as a woman at a certain and age, career driven, the things that we were told in our, like growing up, this is where you should be, you have to be this way, it's gonna be so hard for you at this moment. I, just the freedom in saying, yeah, like I'm getting a divorce, like that was hard for me. When I finally got over it, I had to let go of the fear and the shame of saying, and the embarrassment of getting a divorce. You felt embarrassed? Oh my gosh, yeah, like here I go, another failed relationship, what will people say? I couldn't make this work, I can make this work, Like so many other things work in my life. I couldn't make the marriage work. Questioning myself, doubting myself. It's just, there was so much. I'm looked at as a successful relationship. She did it. She survived the show. The wish fulfillment for black women at home. Like one of us has got married. And now I gotta tell you, not only did I do it, I didn't get a prenup guys. You know, so it's, there's a chapter on that. And you're an attorney for something. I was more concerned about people saying, saying she can't be loved than I was about being smart about, like I took that, like I wanted a prenup. I'll talk about that. I talked to him about a prenup. He did not want it. And I'm like, do I want to say this marriage didn't work because I didn't get a prenup? No. What will people think? It was all, I need to pull back the layers of it. I need people to see because they're like, again, she has it all together. But I don't at times. And this divorce shows some of that. But I want to tell the story my way, but I also want a book or an essay for people to go back to. And it's not just if you're married, it's long-term relationship. This book may be for the person who is scared to get married and wants to see, you know, how I navigated it. It might be for the person who's stuck in that relationship and is too fearful to leave because they're scared. This relationship has defined them. I felt that as well. This relationship has defined them. What will people think of you after? I want to take I want this book for someone who needs to take back their power that they feel like they've lost. That was also me in the relationship. So it's I want the chapter to start out with a story. I want to take you through a journey, but I want to end each chapter or essay with a lesson. Maybe I didn't get it. Yeah, maybe I did. But yeah, it's a little bit of an inspiring book, a little bit of tea, but a little bit of the book that I wish that I could have found out there for myself. And I think what's going to be so powerful about your book is that you're going to teach women or whoever reads it to silence those voices because those voices of like the shame and yeah you failed or even having to tell you know tell people this this failed yeah didn't work that like it's hard and you're just thinking about those things and those things shape so many of your decisions so just knowing how to tune out that voice I think can be game changing and I just like even if you're not well I know there's plenty of things that I want to do and I don't do them because I'm scared yeah so I think like a book like this is like a woman's handbook to just navigating. Oh, I hope so. It's going to be great. That's what I want. I hope so. I just gotta, I gotta do it. You have to. Rachel, thank you so much. Where can the audience find you? They can find me on my socials at TheRachelindsey on everything. And then new podcast episodes drop for Higher Learning and Morally Corrupt every Tuesday and Friday. Okay. Love it. Rachel, this has been so fun. Thank you. We'll see you next week.