SC EP:1259 We Thought It Was A Bear

On a late November night in 2012, while driving in the foothills of Washington, two brothers were surrounded by mysterious creatures. Still haunted and forever changed, these men took to the internet, creating a forum for others. If you've had an encounter, and no one else can help, maybe you can contact Sasquatch Chronicles. It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind, and it either heard me or smelt me, and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up, and that, that shocked me. They don't make people that, that big. The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move like that in my life. They were screaming at each other in gibberish. It sounded like a language, and they were chunting away back and forwards, back and forwards, I know what a bear looks like, and there is no way on this planet that what I saw was bears. This is Colonel Nathan R. Jessup. Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy, Commander of the Navy. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here. Tonight we'll be chatting with Jeff. And Jeff comes to us from California. And back in 1994, him and his wife were out camping. And they had a strange encounter. At first they thought it was a bear. But nothing about the bear made sense. When they end up cutting the camping trip short, I'll kind of like Jeff going to it. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is west at Sasquatch Chronicles dot com. And if you get a chance to check out Sasquatch Chronicles dot com, you can become a member and get additional shows. Hope everyone is enjoying some time off during this Memorial Day weekend. Let's jump into it. I want to welcome Jeff to the show. Jeff, thanks for coming on. Yeah, hey, how are you doing? I'm doing well, Jeff. Thank you for asking. And I know that you and your wife had this encounter. We're going back to 1994. This is in California. If you would, would you start from the very beginning? Walk me into what happened? Would you guys end up seeing? Yeah. Well, my wife and I, we had just been married. We moved back to California where I grew up and we were living in Oceanside. And one of the places where we used to go camping as a family when I was a kid was one of the places I wanted to show her. So we packed up one weekend and I told her I was going to show her Laguna Mountain in Eastern San Diego County, East County. We would drive through the town of Alpine, California to get there, which you may remember from the stories about the Zubis. There's some strange coincidences about the area. But nonetheless, we headed up to Mount Laguna and there we were set up for camping one night and for the weekend. It was a Friday night and we pulled in and it was the afternoon. We set up camp and I noticed it was empty. We were the only ones there. I thought that very strange, but the campground was dead empty. It was beautiful weather and when the ranger came around in his little cart to say, hi, I asked him about it. He said, well, it's the first week of school. It's the first week of school. And so yeah, there's nobody there. I like camping, but I kind of suppose now that I look back on it, there's a certain security in a full campground that's lacking in an empty campground. And I had nothing in my mind about anything weird happening or anything. We set up camp and the plan was the next day to hike out and see the desert. And that's why I love this campground because I do love the desert. The neat thing about the Laguna Mountains is you have alpine on one side and you can be camping in the alpine, but the trail within a half hour will take you out in the dead desert. What you get is you get the mountains on one side with the alpine where you're camping because that's where the ocean water, the ocean marine climate hits. On the other side of the mountain, it's dead desert and drops away into the desert. And the neat thing is you can just see for infinity from the mountains up there into the flat desert. And so that's part of the fun. Well, we set up camp that night and we had our dinner and whatnot. We had our fire. Still, it's an empty campground. We went to bed that night. And now my wife and I living in San Diego, we love the coyotes. And so, you know, when you hear the coyotes, you hop up from the table, you run outside and listen to them and you watch them. And it's always been a neat thing. I mean, we've sort of felt, in fact, camping at a different place than desert in Borrego Springs. We woke up one morning to, I mean, a granddaddy coyote sitting in the, sitting right in the middle of our camp just looking at us. He is beautiful and I really enjoyed it. Felt a little bit of a kind of neat connection and he trotted off. So we love the coyotes and we heard the coyotes that night and we were, you know, expecting to hear the coyotes. And when we heard them coming way off in the distance, see, they're coming up from the desert side up the side of the mountain. And we heard them come in and getting louder and louder. And then we got a bit surprised. It was a little nerve-wracking when, when the coyotes charged right through the campground. I mean, they came right through the campground on all sides of the tent and we were inside the tent where we could hear them. And that was a little bit closer than we were used to. And if you've heard a whole pack of coyotes, they're just yapping and barking and yapping and running. And, you know, basically it's a stampede. And so we thought, interesting, that's neat. I liked that. Well, it'll be a nice big day tomorrow. So we, so we laid down and went to sleep. And we were woken up in the middle of the night by wolves, the sounds of wolves. So now we know the difference between the coyotes because we enjoy the coyotes. They're sort of our friends, but these were not coyote sounds. They were wolf sounds. And we could hear them off on the desert side. They were definitely coming out from the desert side. So, so we hear the wolves. I didn't think much of it because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not well-versed enough in Forestry to know that there weren't wolves in Southern California. I simply didn't know this. And when the Ranger came around the next morning, again in his little cart, said, how are you doing? And I said, wow, we certainly heard the wolves last night. And he said, you mean the coyotes? I said, no, no, we love the coyotes. We saw them run through here. So you saw them run through here, the campground. And I said, yeah, they ran right around us. He said, that's interesting. So yeah, but that's not it. The wolves we heard all night. And he said, he looked at us. He's, there are no wolves here. There are no wolves in Southern California. We're like, well, okay, well, I heard wolves. And he said, my dog's part wolf. He might have heard him. And I'm thinking, no, we heard lots of wolves and lots of places. And so the idea is I didn't know until later, but it wasn't wolves. We were hearing it all now in hindsight, but we didn't know that. And I didn't know that. So we, we thought nothing of it. I mean, literally nothing of it. I wasn't a big foot fan or I had nothing to do with any of this at the time. So none of this was coming, registering in my head. So the next morning we had our breakfast and the big deal was to go out on the trail. So the Pacific Coast Trail. And I don't know if you want dead locations, but this is the, we were in the burnt ranch here, a campground of Laguna Mountain State Park. And the way to get there was to go to the campground. And the way to get there, the only way to get there is up through the town of Alpine. And so we went out for our hike and it was hot out there because it was, you know, it was spring. So, so in California, starting to get dry and dusty because in California, it's the winter that's green. And by the time we had gotten there, the green was sort of disappearing and it was starting to get kind of crunchy out there desert wise. So we had it on the trail and we were hiking on the trail and enjoying the views and whatnot. It was quiet. We did notice saying to ourselves, wow, it's quiet out here, but it was very hot and hot and quiet kind of go together. But we, we saw a big foot, but we didn't see him face to face charging through the trees at us. As a matter of fact, we saw a big foot in a way that we didn't even know we were looking at big foot. And that's the truth. But I think by the time we finish here, you'll probably, you might come to the same conclusions we did. So we were out walking on the desert as part of the PCH, the Pacific Cross Trail. And we were out walking on the PCH and it was just hot. We weren't seeing anything, nothing coming along. And we had enjoyed the day. We've been out there maybe an hour. And the strangest thing, we came around a corner and there was a pile of dead trees laid across the path, almost in an X shape. They were, you know, not big six inch trees. They were, they were like snapped off dead trees, you know, but they were big. They were, you know, maybe three inches, you know, a bit good handful around, but they were piled up perpendicularly across the trail. And it almost looked like they were laid in an X shape, as if you were looking from above. Now, it's a big trail. I mean, the trail is three, four foot wide sandy gravel. It's by no means nature, natural there. When we saw these, this, this stuff in the road, I remember thinking how very curious and just stepping around it. Again, I had no idea of any of this stuff yet. And this is all coming together in hindsight. We walked across, we'll walk around sort of through, because it was, it was up on one side and way down into the desert on the other. So we kind of walked through it. And I do remember as soon as we went through that, I don't know how far we had gone down the trail. When I said to my wife, I said, what is that sound? And she's like, well, she's, I don't know what, what she says, I hear she's looking around, I'm looking around. They said, I remember saying, that sounds like a dead cow or it sounds like a dying cow. And it was loud. And I mean, I guess when I said a dying cow, I was thinking big animal, making noise for some one reason or another. And it continued. And we stopped and we looked around and I heard it. Then to stop for a little bit. And we saw nothing. And at that point, I am, there was a big boulder, there are great big boulder right next to the pass. And we had brought some sandwiches, we were going to have, you know, our little picnic and we hopped up on the boulder, started unpacking lunch and we heard the sounds. What is that? I started looking down in the valley. And the valley goes, you know, maybe, I don't know, a quarter, half mile down, and then started heading back up the other side. So half up the other side of this gully, I saw a tree shaking. So we're hearing the noises. And it's not like we were close. It was the other side of the valley. And the tree was shaking. And again, I didn't think anything because I didn't know at the time. And then I saw something banging on the tree. Now you would say, if you see something banging on the tree, it's bigfoot. But I had no frame of reference. I wasn't into it then. At first, I said, well, there's that, that cow. Now, what's he doing banging on the tree? Because that's where the sounds are coming from. And then I looked again and I said, that cow is standing up. That's not a cow. Cow don't stand up against trees. And so I said, there's a bear. Look at that. And it was a lot, you know, it was further, it was a longer way away. We weren't afraid to run. We were on the trail on the other side of the gully. So we saw this great big red-haired, sort of red, brown, red, orange, brown-haired bear banging on the tree. And we could see it banging up against it and turn around backwards and slam into it backwards, like it was hanging fists up in the air. But we thought it was a bear. We heard the sounds. We saw the tree shaking. And we said, oh, that's interesting. And you know, I thought that maybe I saw a barbed wire fence or something down in the bottom of the, as a matter of fact, I do now remember seeing. There was a fence line of some kind between us and it in the bottom of the valley. But even so, I wasn't afraid of a bear that was that far away. And so we made our way around. We were at the end of the trail. We came in. We saw nothing of it. And other than normal day stuff. So we weren't even afraid. We weren't, you know, even in a position to understand what we had seen. Originally, it looked like it was slamming into the tree, not with its fists, like a punching bag. It was like slamming into it. And then it eventually turned, it at one point had turned around and was definitely slamming it into the, it backing into it. You know, like a kid does on the bathroom door when he wants to annoy you a little baby or something, he's going bam, bam with his backside. And so that's what was happening. And like I said, I saw the fists were up in front of it. That's how I noticed, you know, that was turning around backwards because I could see its hands. But I couldn't see hands. They were far enough away for me to think it was still a bear. And so that's how he was, and then the tree was shaking. There's a whole row of trees. And this was on the edge of this little forest. There was a little forest going up the hillside. And this tree was on the very edge, so we could see it. It wasn't hidden in the forest. It was like the very last row of trees before it tumbled down into the desert scrub. On the other side of the valley. And you know, I try to think about how far away it was, maybe a quarter mile. I don't know. So we leave and we go back to camp. We're still not thinking anything of it. And you can see how I later on, after learning things in like learning things that that when I realized that the trees across the path, and right when we crossed over the trees across the path was when the the the noise that the sound started, the dead cow sounds, and it was between the that those, um, those trees across the path and the rock was when we heard all heard it all. And it had stopped as we stopped to listen to it and look around, it had stopped. Then we went and sat up on the rock is when it started again, and I started to see the tree shaking. So in my mind, and in hindsight, I kind of, you know, was something looking at us, trying to wait for us to decide if we're going to leave and then when we decided to stay and climb up on the rock for lunch, basically to watch him. It was was when it started banging on the tree backwards and the noises started back up again. So we leave the trail, finish up the trail, go back to count, and kind of take a nap in the afternoon, got up for dinner. And so we saw the Ranger come around for the third time. This is the evening rounds, of course, we were the only ones in the cab crowds, we didn't have anybody else to talk to. So he pulls up in his little cart and hops off. And this is the part that sticks in my mind more than anything, even more than seeing the bear or there is that I said to the Ranger, you know, we went on the trail today, he said, Yeah, and I said, You know, you got a big bear or there. And he looked at me and he said, There are no bears in these mountains. And he said, There's no, oh, he said, There's no bears in San Diego County. That's what he said. So there are no bears in San Diego County. And he said, Oh, yeah, there is. I just saw him today. And he did the weirdest thing. And this is why it sticks into my head. He got real close to me in my face. And even at the time, I didn't think about it. But he got in my face like a drill instructor. And he stared me in the eyes and he said, There are no bears in San Diego County. And he just stared at me. And I kind of backed off and said to my wife later, I said, Did you see that? Why? That was weird. And I remember being struck by it. Now I see his eyes in my in my dreams now. And he was not, he was not having fun. And I look back at it now, he was he might have been saying, I'm pretty sure now he was saying something that I that I wasn't hearing at the time. And it was the night before that he said, There are no wolves. This time he got in my face to say, There are no bears. So here am I looking for the coyote is be hearing the wolves and then seeing bears. And I can still remember the green of his uniform, the look of his eyes, his hat. And then he got in his little cart and he drove away. And I went back to my wife and said, Do you see that? That's kind of weird. Why did you get in my face? What was he so upset about? And still I hadn't put anything together. But still I had not put any of this together. This all came in hindsight. And so it was evening, we had our dinner. Oh, yeah, I remember this, there's something I forgot. We had asked the second day we asked the ranger if we could move our campsite from the one we had, which we had reserved out to one that we had preferred, which was out there on the trail. We're very close to the trail. So we could almost walk up the little hillside and see down into the desert. So we were really close to the trail. I think it was probably the closest campsite we get to the trail that we got it. So we packed up and we moved out to the trail to that spot. Basically, we sat up for a second night and we went to bed. And there is to me a scary part coming. So this, this, there's a scary part coming for me anyways. Still we hadn't put anything together. We were we were asleep in the little tent, little two person tent. My wife was asleep. But we were, I wasn't asleep because I was here rustling all around the tent. And like I said, the grass had started getting dry. So it was my mind that there are rabbits out there. So there are rabbits all around this tent. And they were getting noisier and noisier. The rabbits were just keeping me up because I was not that they were making so much noise, but they were just snapping twigs enough for me to keep waking up every time I tried to sleep. And I just said to myself, you know, I'm not going to stand for this. And so I unzip the tent and I went out and I just started making noise and waving my hands and yelling and making circles around the tent to scare all the little rabbits. Actually, I thought, actually, I thought they were probably like field mice at the time. But if they had been field mice, they were kind of swarming us because I could just hear so much of it. Didn't think anything of it because you know, had I thought anything about Bigfoot or anything at this time, you'd think I'd be scared out in the nighttime, but I wasn't. I went back in the tent, zipped up, went down to back to go back to sleep, started hearing the wolves again from the night before, started hearing the wolves again. And it was uncomfortable, but you know, no big deal. We stayed in the tent until I started hearing the wolves. And then I started hearing the rustling around the tent again. I previously thought we're mice. Now, I don't know what caused me to do it differently this time, but one of my camping implements is a big, long World War II bayonet. It's got a nice sheath on it. It's strong as a, you know, as a baseball bat, but it's a sharp. It's sharp, but I kept it sharp and always carried that with me. So for some reason, I said, okay, I'm gonna go out there and stop this because I don't want to sleep. So I, I unsheathed that bayonet, you know, it's 12, 14, 16 inches long. So I got my little sword and I, and I unzipped the tent and dove out because whatever it was out there, I wanted to scare it. I don't know why I was scared because I guess I thought it was mice or, or, or bears, but I was feeling difficult. I was feeling different this time. And I said, I'm not going to stand for this. And I took the knife with me or the big bayonet and I dove out of the tent and I stand up and I start yelling, you know, get out of here, whatever, leave me alone. And I'm, I'm hacking at the bushes and the, and the, and the grass and the brush with the knife, the bayonet. And I look, I don't see anything. And I'm sorry, there's no, there's no, you know, movie style, bigfoot sighting here. But all of a sudden, and this was the first time I thought something was weird because obviously thinking there's rabbits, no big deal, mice, no big deal. I even jumped out of the tent still thinking it was a rat or mice or something, but I brought the big knife with me and I was a little bit, you know, nervous, I guess at the time. And I stood there looking out across the desert side into the dark and there was no noise. I didn't hear the wolves anymore. I heard nothing. It was dead still, dead still. And all of a sudden, I got overcome with a fear that I cannot explain. Something that made me instantly abandoned everything. I went around to the front of the tent and I shook my wife awake and I said, we're getting out of here. And she said, well, I said, we're just getting out of here right now. We're not staying. And she said, what's the matter? I go, I don't know. I was just terrified. And when she woke up, it was either me being scared, I got her scared, but she got scared too. What we ended up doing was grabbing everything. I just grabbed the whole tent without even taking it down and all the gear that was inside the tent. I threw it into the back of my truck and I went and grabbed the camp chairs and threw them on top. And by the time we left, I'd never looked back. I was just terrified and I had not seen anything. And I didn't put together anything that had happened during the day, even yet I had. And what the look and what the what the ranger said about the bear, no bear in it. And so I still hadn't put it. I had this on. There was no reason for this fear because I hadn't put anything together yet. And we I threw everything in the back of that truck. We burned out of that campground. And I remember being out on the road heading down the mountain and still looking around behind me as if I'm so scared. I'm scared of something I'm not even seeing. We drove all the way home and believe it or not, that's hilarious. I remember listening to Art Bell that night. He was talking about something else, but it was we're heading through the desert in the mountain side listening to Art Bell three in the morning after we had just abandoned our campsite. And that that turns out to be it. In the end, we went home. And it wasn't until I started just by Sir Cap and stance listening to or reading online about the about the things that had happened in San Diego County. I first heard the story about the Zubis and Alpine and the doctor. And then something weird happens now. And this is something for you even today. Now, I looked back at the map years later to see what the area was. You know, what was that valley? See if I could see the spot where I think I had seen Bigfoot because now I had put all that all together. It all made sense even chronologically and exactly the the the the chain of events that happened all dropped into place as soon as I heard it was Bigfoot that I had seen out there banging on the tree and not a cow. And there are no bears. So there I so I run across a couple of stories. One is the story about the old lady who lived out in East County, San Diego, who wrote the story wrote the book about the Indian Reservation where she had seen are you familiar with that story? She she she had some Indian friends and then they took her out there and said we're going to show you where he lives. And they said we won't go there. She came back again and they had blocked the road with a bulldozer and all that. Do you remember that story? No, I don't think I'm aware of that one. Oh my goodness. So apparently she wrote a book and there are so few copies that nobody has it. But there's a story about a woman in Southern California who the Indians knew where Bigfoot or whatever they called him lived. And she's this and they said we'll show you and they took her out and they pointed her up a valley. And this was East County, San Diego. And they said, well, we're not going to take you there. You might be home. And she questioned them about him and she lived out there in the desert. Like I said, an old lady all by herself. And eventually she came back to go actually see it because she had some some teenagers that were going to take them there. When they came up around the road, the Indian tribe was standing in the road saying, no, you need to leave. You're not coming here. We're not going to take you to show them. And that's another story that you need to look up and find because you know, the story of her is known. There's some newspaper articles, I think, from the 1970s about her. Her book itself is unpublished from what I've heard. But nonetheless, so she talks about this little town, I see these little when I'm looking on the map, I start seeing these little outbuildings and stuff in down this valley. There's no town there, but there's a bunch of marked buildings. It came across some three, not three wheelers, like dirt bikers who had gone out there and they said, yeah, there's a little there's a little village down there that's abandoned. And because I read some buddy about driving out on that trail and down in the valley. Nonetheless, here's the punchline. The punchline is that if you go on the map and you look up thing road, T H I N G thing road is the dirt road that goes up the very valley that I saw Bigfoot at that has the village down the way where there had been stories in the past of locals about some thing. And that's why the road is called a thing road. And it goes right up the valley. I mean, right next to that fence line where I saw the bear or Bigfoot. So if you get a San Diego topographical map and you look on down from Burnt Rancherra campground in Laguna National Forest or Laguna State Park, Cleveland National Forest, you'll see thing road. And thing road is where I saw Bigfoot. So that's that's the punchline, I guess. And that's my story. And at the time, I certainly I never put any of it together until strung all this stuff later. So yeah, I'm gonna have to research that thing road. That is interesting. I know that there is a thing road near the Winchester house, but you're in a completely different area. Winchester house is up in Los Angeles. But this was down in San Diego. And it's out on the desert side. I mean, if you go down far enough in the desert, you're gonna hit on the Borrego and Borrego Springs, which is another weird thing that happened to me in Borrego Springs, is that I was camping at a different place called Tamarisc Grove. And it's out in the desert, but there's this grove of Tamarisc trees out there. And we were sleeping and I heard an owl. And the owl was right above our tent. And I said, that owl is barking. And that's not a hooting owl. And then we were at the gift center, the nature center the next day. And I told the people there. And I said, you know, I heard a barking last night. And they said, well, where were you? And I said, we're in the Tamarisc Grove. And she got a surprise look on her face and call her friends over and pull out the map and started looking at it and said, where did you see that? Where did you hear the barking? And I said, oh, right here, I showed them where I was, what time of the night it was. And they said they're back. And I said, what do you mean they're back? And I said, they've been gone a long time. And they had me sign and say congratulations, you're the first sighting of this owl that has been seen in a very long time. So they told me it was an owl and it probably could have been an owl. But this is the same desert, the exact same desert, 15 miles away on the same side of the mountain. But that's my story and my side story. Yeah, I appreciate sharing. Makes me wonder about that behavior of the creature. I find it fascinating to how if you don't believe in Bigfoot, people, you know, like a cow, a bear, kind of goes through your mind or your brain tells you that's what you're actually seeing. And you know, in your heart, that's not what I mean. The way you describe it, it doesn't sound like a cow or a bear. When you got out of your tent that night, what do you think scared you so much? Was it just because of the silence? What scared me was whatever was going around the tent, it was making noise in the bushes. And I, you know, I'm a military veteran and I don't get scared of things in the dark. And I guess I don't get scared of things in the day either. I just grabbed that big knife and jumped out of the tent knowing that I wanted to surprise whatever was out there. And man, we got that great big bayonet in your hands, you're just not afraid of anything. So it was the noise that got me to jump out of the tent and I was going to surprise him the second time. And that's why I took the knife with me. And that's when I jumped out of the tent. And I remember looking up the hillside, you know, there was a little bit of a berm, maybe 8, 10 feet away from the tent was where it started going back down into the desert. And looking out there into the black, it just terrified me. And I don't know why. I wasn't scared when I got out of the tent. Then it just turned and I don't know why. I don't know what I was afraid of, but I was just dead afraid. And it was that kind of fear that as soon as you get scared, you start thinking you're running out of time, that every moment that you're there, the danger is closer and closer. So by the time we were done throwing camp stuff into the back of the truck and burning out of there, I was just, we were just shaking. We had no reason to be, I still hadn't put anything together. The only thing that was there was the fear. Yeah. Well, thank you for your service to our country, Jeff. A lot of my witnesses talk about that, you know, and I've experienced it and I don't know what to make of it. Or it's just that overwhelming fear when you really haven't seen anything, you haven't heard anything. And I know your sighting was kind of a brief sighting. I mean, you were thinking it was a bear and nothing about it sounds like a bear. But what do you think Sasquatch is, Jeff? What's your take? You know, I want to, before I, it wasn't brief. We watched that stupid thing bang on the tree for a good couple of minutes and it didn't stop and it was just loud. And finally we left. When I thought I was looking at a bear and I, you know, and then the last, well, you know what, as to your second question, I am, I'm, I'm a little nervous about that because I'm starting to, this is going to sound nuts, but I'm starting to listen to quantum theory stuff. And quantum theory talks a lot about manifesting things that we really do build our universes. And the thing that has always bothered me and really has me spook to this day is that why is it that oftentimes when you hear a story, when someone tells their Bigfoot story, even on your show, you ask them, well, what about the next time and the next time? It's like, if you see Bigfoot, you see him again. And if you see him, he follows you home. And I've heard that on your channel also, people having their trailer banged on, you know, 20 miles away from where they saw Bigfoot. And, you know, the Indians talk about how they won't talk about it, that talking about it might bring it about. That fits in with the quantum thing. The reason it spooks me is not because I'm afraid of quantum stuff, but I'm kind of looking at the whole, if you talk about it, you make it happen. You invite it. But I don't believe that completely. I also believe that it's a flesh and blood animal, at least while it's here. That's why it can simply disappear. That's why it's never been seen. It's as if it comes and goes when it wants. And that's why it's not afraid of anything. I also have a reason as to why I think he's not afraid of people at all. Well, obviously his strength is going to keep him from being afraid of anybody. But why does he walk out in front of people in cars? And this is going to, I'm going to sound really ridiculous, but I'm a longtime Christian. I've done a lot of Bible studying through my days. And I do a lot of research on ancient history, ancient books, and sort of an ancient sociological amateur archaeologist. And anyways, you know, the two stories, there's a number of stories in beginning the Bible. And I'm not talking about Nephilim. I'm not talking about the Watchers. I believe them to be something very different. But the two stories that do get me is the one, and I guess I'm saying this is what I believe Bigfoot is, the one story is in the Jewish Talmud, not in our Bible, but it's the Jewish Talmud. And I guess it's older than our Bible. And it talks about Adam's first wife, Lilith. And Adam's first wife, Lilith, was unhappy with him. And it is said that she left him and God banished her out to the desert, or it could be the wilderness. You know, we're talking about people trying to explain what they see, you know, just when there's, when humanity has never been more than a dirt farmer yet, you know. So apparently, the Bible says that the Talmud says she went out and she had children with the quote, unquote devils. And that her offspring were something other than what we are. Then it comes around to, when you come to Adam and Eve, there are people that believe that since there are two creation stories in Genesis and the Bible, the first one is, I think God made them equal. And then the second, or wait, they made them equal from the dirt, I think is the first one. And the second one is, and that's where the Jewish Bible says that that was Lilith. And the second one that we have in our Bible is when God took the rib of man to make the woman again. That leads us to Cain and Abel. In Cain and Abel, we know the story of them. One killed the other. And it was Cain that was run off into his own civilization. And I believe that's when they talked about the men of renown and whatnot. And so there's that. The second one. Anyways, what they say is that there may have been two civilizations of humans at the time. There may have been the prehumans, which were from the first batch of humans. And then there were the second humans. And those are us, the intelligent species. And so in effect, I'm sometimes thinking, well, Bigfoot's the first humans, and we're the second ones. And there's another theory that, oh my goodness, my Bible people are going to just hate me for this kind of stuff. There are people that believe that the stories of Cain and Abel and Joshua and Jacob are conflated in the early manuscripts. And I'm not going to argue that. But the point is, if you look in the Bible and you read the Bible about Isaac, Esau, Esau and Jacob. Yeah, Esau and Jacob, the brothers. There's a lot of weird stuff about Esau and Jacob. And it says out right in the text that Esau was born, what they called Ruddy, and then he was, if he was red, he came out covered with hair, with red hair. He was covered head to toe in hair. There's the prophecy that says the older will overcome. Basically, it says that the younger brother will be superior to the older brother. Although they were born twins, it was Esau that came out first, the so-called unquote, ready, Ruddy, R-U-D-D-Y Ruddy man, which means hairy, red. And then the second to come out was Jacob. And the thing says that the younger will rule over the older, which means Jacob will rule over Esau, his people. And I just lost my train of thought. You're going to have to let me help me find it for a second. Yeah, I know what you're referring to, Jeff. I believe the verse says the older will serve the younger one. And if my memory is right, I believe it's in Genesis 25. But the weird part is, I get that question all the time. I will say it's probably in the top 10 questions, believe it or not, where people think Esau is Sasquatch. And I don't get it for a life of me. I really don't get it. On a future show, I'll be having an author coming on who wrote a whole book about Esau being Sasquatch. And I'll release it later. But I mean, I really push back on the sky. And normally I don't, but I really push back on the sky. It was a fun conversation. I want to come across that way. But if you just look at the verse with his hair, there's more to Sasquatch than being hairy. Their appearance, how long their arms are, how big their jaw is, how big they are, the way they vocalize. And people read that, I think in the Bible, and they think, well, you know, Esau had, you know, he came out hairy. Well, sometimes babies come out hairy. And maybe Esau suffered from hypertrichosis. I don't know. But we know who his parents were. We know who his brother was. We know the nations that came from Esau. There's nothing in there that leads me to believe. And I haven't been convinced yet, but there's nothing in there that makes me believe Esau has anything to do with Sasquatch. But I hope people enjoy the upcoming show. And like I said, I'm open to listening to everyone. I'm not a stubborn man by any means. But even after I spoke to that author, I still don't buy it. You know, and I agree with you. I see all of that. And the problem is, like my experience, taken apart, I agree with you. But there is one thing that punchlines this thing all the way through my initial concept of I'm afraid of quantum things is that do you remember what the Bible said God did to Cain that he not abolished the word. He sent him out. What's the word? Yeah, you're on the right track. He sent him out. I guess you could say exiled him. He exiled him. And Cain said, but you can't do this. They're going to kill me. Everyone will kill me. And what did God do? God said to him, I will place a mark upon you that nobody will kill you. And it's really strange. It's weird language. I have to think about over and over again. And it bugs me because God didn't say I'm going to put a mark on you that anybody's going to find you're going to kill you. He said he put a mark on him that when anybody sees that they will not be able to kill you. And when I think of Cain, and I think of Bigfoot, and I think of what could a mark be, what could possibly be put upon a being to where anybody that sees and will not kill them. In my brain says this, it says either one, he's terrifying. Someone's going to kill him. Or two, he can disappear. And if it's he can disappear, what happens if these ideas about Bigfoot being this ancient human race, but they can disappear? Is A, why they've survived so long? So long be why they are not allowed to kill or not allowed. It appears that they don't literally attack humans. They just like to scare the hell out of them. Well, wouldn't that be Cain and or Esau. I'm sorry, I'm losing this now. It's the ADHD kicking in. But he can't kill his brother. So A, he can hide, B, he's terrifying. C, he's always been here. It's another race of humans. And that's why they're so human like because they are humans. But they have this curse. I don't know what the mark of Cain was. I don't think anyone really knows what the mark of Cain was. But that mark on Cain, well, let me back up. First of all, Cain's children didn't suffer that curse, if you want to call it that. And it wasn't until, I mean, it's been a while since I've read this, I think it's like Genesis four. It wasn't that Cain couldn't be killed, because he could. But if anyone killed Cain, vengeance would be taken on that person sevenfold. And I think it's kind of a stretch. I mean, I like the fact that you're thinking outside of the box, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to go. Well, he could be invisible. He could. You won't find that information anywhere. And we know, you know, the other and I personally think Cain died in the flood. He wasn't like he, he wasn't given immortality. And I believe there's a record of Cain's family tree, I guess, or bloodline, you know, his kids and their kids and their kids and their kids. But there's nothing in there that really describes them like Sasquatch. Cain and Esau weren't out there banging on trees in the middle of the night, doing wild calls like the Ohio howl. I struggle with that one too. But that one does come up. I understand where you're coming from, Jeff. I mean, you're not the first person to think about that. It comes up a lot too. I like outside of the box thinking I just struggle with Esau and Cain having anything to do with Sasquatch. But maybe I'm wrong. Who knows, you know, it's one of those things. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share your encounter. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Yeah, I guess I kind of put it all in a blender, be quite honest. There's a lot I had put together, but all those thoughts live in my head. No, I understood where you're coming from. I mean, I get where you're coming from. I don't think it was in a blender. I think your your ideas are a lot of people's ideas. I mean, I've had so many emails about especially Esau being bigfoot. And people asking me to do shows on it. They're like, Oh, Esau was bigfoot, you got to do a show on it. Like, you're not going to like my answer if you think Esau is bigfoot. But that's my opinion. And like I said, I mean, I'm wrong every day. So I don't think I'm right about everything. But it would take a lot of convincing for me to buy into that theory. But again, I like outside of the box thinking. I think some of the coolest ideas come from that. But I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you again. Yes, you're very welcome. And I appreciate the show. Stay on and stay happy. Thank you. Thanks again, Jeff. And that's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is west at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. And if you get a chance to check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com, you can become a member and get additional shows. Until next time, everyone. And make power grow wider. So we'll put my spirit wiser. To instant, thinner, quieter. That's all. This is my home. This is our home. Memories of you, dear. Untend your eyes. Close it in sky. I'll mess them up right. Memories of you, dear. Put the lights on. This is my home. This is our home. Memories of you, dear. Untend your eyes. Close it in sky. I'll mess them up right. Memories of you, dear. Memories of you, dear. Memories of you, dear. Memories of you, dear. Say it just in your memory. You'll smile and we'll feel it. Because I found the key to memory. So I hope you're dying in memory. And I'll make you stay in memory. And we'll slip away in memory. I say just in the end, I miss my new way for the moon Cause I found the key to the moon You are the guest in the moon And I make you stay in the moon I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move You are the guest in the moon I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move I miss you the way you move