My Fiancé Hid $100K in Debt from Me

So I recently got engaged this summer. We've been living together for a couple years before this and every time I've asked him to sit down with the budget, he just kind of brushes me off like, no, we're fine. We're good. We're good. How bad is it? How much does he owe? It's well over a hundred thousand dollars. Okay. Well over. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloni show. So glad that you're with us. Pull up a seat, grab some nachos, grab something to eat, and we're going to figure out what's the next right move when it comes to your marriage, to your relationships, to your friendships, to holiday travels, to your mental and emotional health, whatever you got going on in your life. For two decades I've been sitting with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move and that's what we're going to do today. All right. Let's talk about your marriage. Right now we have February and October weekends on sale for the money in marriage getaways. The best marriage retreat on the planet. Tickets start at seven hundred and forty nine bucks a couple. Get yours at ramsysolutions.com slash getaway. Let's go out to Bismarck, North Dakota and talk to Renee. Hey Renee, what's going on? Hi. How are you? So I recently got engaged this summer. We've been living together for a couple of years before this and every time I've asked him to sit down with the budget, he just kind of brushes me off like, no, we're fine. We're good. We're good. We have a couple of credit cards that I am a co-signer on and I started noticing my credit score dip. Let me pause right there. Let me back all the way out of this. So some people or a lot of people listening to the show don't know that I also co-host another show, the Ramsey show where it's a finance show. We're talking about money. And so you're asking questions about let's get beneath the budget part. You've been living with a guy for two years and you've been asking him money questions, which are really safety questions, provider questions like, are we on the same team questions? Right? Yeah. Okay. And y'all took out a couple of credit cards that together, so in a couple of instances you've combined finances. Yeah. But over after living together for two years, he won't tell you what he makes? No, I know what he makes. Okay. He won't tell you what he owes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So can I ask you a hard question? Yes. Why is it taking two years for you to trust yourself? Trust myself. I am actually in trauma therapy. Okay. Not a good life. Okay. A lot of bad situations. Recently within like the last 10, 11 years, I've been working on myself. I have three daughters from a previous relationship. I started a business. How bad is it? How much does he owe? It's well over $100,000. Okay. Well over. And what's the spending? Is it student loans or is it addictive stuff? Is it gambling? Oh, I am very sure it's addictive stuff. He gets packages at the house all the time, you know, from different stores, you know, new clothes, golf stuff, soccer stuff. So spending addictions? Yes. Yeah. Yes. He tried to frame it as giving us the life that he thinks that we deserve, you know, because he really wants to be there, step up and be there for me and my children. He has two other children of his own that live with their mom and which is great. I'm really happy that that's how he feels, but I can't accept that as an answer because I know that that's not the deep reason that he's in debt. Well, let's do this. I want you to, part of trauma recovery is owning what I'm going to do next. Yes. Right? And so I want to own in this particular situation. I have let it go on for two years and I'm not going to let it go on any longer. Yes. The deception and the dishonesty and the fantasy life, which is we're just going to ignore the realities of math and I'm going to continue just to borrow money, buy money, I mean, buy whatever I want or whatever I think is going to make one of these kids feel good in the moment and regardless of whether I have that money or not. Yes. But I also hear in your question, let me see it this way. Rarely does someone who, you is completely avoiding reality in one area of their life, not doing that in other areas of their life. So where are there deeper issues of trust, fracture in this relationship? He is an alcoholic. He recently went to treatment and he's, I mean, he has been working on himself as far as that goes, but I don't think that he's getting to the deep, deep reasons of why he feels the need to do. He's a people pleaser, 100% of people pleaser. He wants to make sure people feel good all the time. And this is something that I have asked him to work on in therapy so that, you know, like I've said, be selfish, be, you know, work on you. You don't have to worry about the rest of us will take care of us. You need to work on you. So you're the best possible version of yourself for us. But I just don't think that he's getting it. Well, and I think this is one of the cancers of the, well, I would call a great landmark. I'm a part of this community, the mental health awareness that has happened over the last 25 to 50 years. Yeah. I think it's awesome, but this is one of the cancers, which is going to figure out why I'm a people pleaser, going to figure out why I'm so desperate that everybody around me be happy. Doesn't excuse the fact that he's lied to your face for two years. Yes, I agree with that. It doesn't excuse the fact that he has, he is spending your family into a quagmire that will take a decade or more to get out of. Yeah. And so I need you to go get to the bottom of some of your mental and emotional health challenges. It may or may not be a quote unquote an addiction of some sort of some sort of addictive disorder. But as for this house, we don't borrow money. As for this house, I want to pull all the credit reports, all three of mine, all three of yours, all of my three kids to make sure you haven't pulled anything else up because I do not trust you. Yeah. And by association, I lost trust in myself and my own gut feeling and I'm not doing that anymore. That's part of my trauma recovery is I'm going to begin to trust my body when it says, Hey, there's a problem over here. Yeah, absolutely. Is that fair? Yeah. And you have to make, not make peace, but you have to traffic in the reality that he might leave. I think it might be me leaving before him. Okay. You might be like, Oh, that'd be awesome. Like, man, if he left, that'd make my life easier. No, at this point, he knows he has a lot of work to do. He knows he has a lot of work to do. I just don't know if he knows how to do it. Okay. That can't be your job because- That's okay. But what your job is, is making a very clear, clear, clear, clear, clear, clear, clear, clear, clear, clear. Your job is, is making a very clear road map to trust and giving it to him. Okay. And he gets to decide whether he's going to follow it. Okay. And if he doesn't, then he's, behavior is a language. He's saying, I don't want to be a part of this relationship. Okay. But you have to be clear about, here's what, and I don't, I don't even want to say need. Here's what I want for my house, for me, for my, any future relationship I'm going to be, in any future marriage I'm going to be a part of. Here's what I want. I want to be with somebody who understands the realities of math, however uncomfortable they may be. I want to be with somebody who, if there's an expense over $100 or $500, that we run it by each other first, that we have a budget for our money, so we have control. Some sort of boundaries that we both agree to live within, because a budget just sets the priorities of what you think is important in your lives. Okay. I like that. Is that fair? It should be the most terrifying and the most empowering exercise you've been a part of. You, for the first time, looking in the mirror and saying, this is what I want, and as for me in my house, this is what this is going to look like. I hope you'll be a part of it with me. I think he'll be really receptive to that as well. Okay. Because here's what I can also imagine in his world. You doing a lot of trauma work, which is both cathartic and scary and terrifying, right? It's raw. Yes. And you saying things like, you need to do your work, and you've got a lot of work to do, and you need to go talk to a therapist about this. And I think you're an addict, and I think you're, and that might be you just yelling at him in Spanish for all, he doesn't know what that means. Right. And so you giving him a map that says, regardless of how uncomfortable you feel, regardless of how tired you are, we will sit down on Sunday nights and go over the budget together for the upcoming week and a calendar. If you come home to this house and you've been drinking, you can't stay here. Like you set those boundaries up. He's the one who violated the trust in my world. I call it financial infidelity. Yes. He cheated on you with that. He cheated on you with money, and he severed your attachment to safety. And let's take ownership. You allowed it to happen for two years. Yes. And so cool. I allowed this, and that's often a great way to enter into these conversations by using an I statement first. I allowed this. I asked you for budget numbers, and you said it was all fine, and I didn't follow up. That's on me. I'm taking 100% responsibility, and that stops today. Okay. How does that sound? I like it. This sounds good. The first thing I want you to do is have everybody pull a credit report. Okay. And you can pull all three of them. I want you to have some confidence into how bad this thing really is. Why does that scare you? Just because. What if there's more? Almost every time these kind of conversations come out in spurts. So has the number grown the more you've dug in? Since the first conversation, it was just he gave me a little bit, and then the next conversation, I was like, wait a minute, you have this out though too. And then he, I know that he had another credit card out. And so it was just little by little. It just kind of opened up. I don't know if there is any more, but I almost wouldn't be surprised. Right. And that's what I want to solve. Your body's not going to feel safe until it knows. Okay. So cool. Let's pull all three credit reports. Let's look at it in a circle, and we're going to get out a yellow pad, and we're going to add it all up. Or an Excel sheet, we're going to add it all up. And are you able to see his direct deposit? No. Okay. Then you don't know how much money he makes. I haven't. He's shown me a couple of paystubs here and there. I know what Javi has, and I kind of know what's coming in. Okay. I want to transition from kind of. Okay. Do I know? And the day y'all are married, if you decide to do that, you're all going to have one checking account, so we're both working from the same place. But please don't do that if you're not married. It makes untangling that a nightmare. Yeah. And the last thing I'm going to tell you, can I tell you one more thing? Yes. If you're done, have the courage to leave. Yes. And that is something I'm working in in therapy, is how I'm feeling about things and trusting my guys. Okay. If you're done, be done. If part of you healing is having been done, or at the least say that the relationship we had is officially over, I'm willing to build a new one if you are. And here's what I want that architectural and design to look like on this new building, this new marriage, this new relationship. Right. And we're going to build it from the floor up, and we'll try to work through it that way. But it's just, I don't want you to go through this experience, have somebody start to work through this roadmap of trust that you've created and begin ticking things off, growing in the whole time, you're like, yeah, but I'm still out. I'm still out. I'm still out. If you're out, have the courage to be out. And there's no judgment either way. It's just you taking ownership of that. And again, I always want to point back to trauma therapy does a couple of things. One, it allows your body to remember what happened and not have your body take off and try to solve it as though it's happening in the present, right? But also trauma recovery is about trusting yourself and being scared and going anyway, in terms of making new relationships, romantic, intimate relationships, friendships. And it's also about autonomy, being able to say the things, here's what I want, and here's what I'm going to demand because this is my life. And asking somebody that you're going to marry, what do you demand? Can we sit down and put all these things on the table and create a secret world together, right? And that's a long-term relationship. But appreciate the call. I wish you the best. It's terrifying finding out your gut was right all along. It's terrifying to find out I ignored myself. It's terrifying to find out, hey, you owe 50 grand, you owe 100 grand, you owe 150,000. That's scary. Whew, that's scary. And so I'm going to turn all the lights on, turn the music off, we're going to pull credit reports, we're going to sit down, and we're going to get some assurances here. And then we're going to choose to start trafficking from that reality. And that can be a great place, and that can be a scary place. Thanks for the call, Renee. When we come back, a woman asks how to break free from her social media addiction. I love the holidays. I love them. Holidays for my family include a ton of travel, and a lot of people coming and going, and a lot of chaos. And with all of this chaos, that means a lot of really late nights, and a lot of lost sleep. With all of this, it can be hard to wind down and actually get good sleep. Almost nothing feels better than coming home from being on the road and falling asleep on my Helix mattress. My whole family sleeps on Helix mattresses, and we all love coming home to lay down. I even have a Helix mattress in the guest room, and when people come over and crash at my house, especially during the holidays, they all get up and they're like, dude, what was that amazing mattress we slept on last night? Helix mattress. Helix mattresses are that good, and here's why. They make mattresses for you, whether you sleep hot, cold on your side, on your back, whatever. Helix customizes their mattresses to fit you and your sleep style. Get online and take the Helix sleep quiz. I did it. It takes like two minutes. And listen, they're going to match you with the perfect mattress. Right now, my audience can get an exclusive 20% off their entire mattress order at helixsleep.com slash Deloni. That's 20% off everything, the whole order. Helix sleep, H-E-L-I-X, helixsleep.com slash Deloni, and tell Helix you heard about them right here on this show. With Helix, better sleep starts right now. I travel the country for a living. And if you've seen me on stages, if you've seen me at comedy clubs, wherever you've seen me, you've almost surely seen me wearing poncho shirts. I love my poncho shirts, and it's cold outside now, so I can wear my favorite poncho shirts, the denim's, and flannels. Poncho's performance denim has that soft, broken in feel with a little bit of stretch. It's like you've worn it a thousand times, but it still looks amazing. And poncho flannels, like the one I'm wearing right now, come in original or western styles, and they are guaranteed to be the softest shirts you own. Somehow, they're both durable and comfortable. Poncho shirts come in slim or regular fit, and they're built for real life. I wear them on stages, I wear them to church, and I wear them when I'm out working in the woods. They are ready for whatever life throws at them. When you're shopping for the men and boys in your life this holiday season, go to ponchooutdoors.com slash deloni and get them hooked up. Sign up with your email, and you'll get 10 bucks off your first order. And tell poncho you heard about them right here on this show. And if you're into the social media thing, take a picture of the men in your life wearing poncho and tag me and tag poncho. Hurry right now and get your order placed to get free shipping before the holidays. That's ponchooutdoors.com slash deloni. All right, we're back. Hey, take two seconds and hit the subscribe button and go into the Apple Store and download the Together app. It's my new app for married couples. It's awesome. Daily practices, one tiny step every single day. Behavior is a language. What's one thing I can do to begin to love you more and more and more? And I just left a big, long meeting about the things they're adding into this app. It's amazing. And it's going to be a long-term thing that grows with you over the course of your marriage and gets to know you better and better. It's awesome. It's called Together by Dr. John Deloni. Go check it out. Android folks, relax. We're coming. We're just not there yet. All right, let's go out to Tampa and talk to Nicole. Hey, Nicole, what's up? Hi, Dr. John. Thanks for taking my call. Of course. What's going on? Well, I apologize. I'm nervous. Bring it. I'm a Gen Z. And I recently listened to your podcast with Carlos Whitaker, and I just read The Anxious Generation. And my question is, how do I break free from a social media addiction when so much of my life and skill set revolves around technology? Ooh, great question. So you use the word addiction. Tell me about the word addiction. Yeah. It's probably something I probably wouldn't have considered before. But recently, I just kind of had a moment of, I don't even know how much time I've wasted just scrolling on social media. And just, it's been interfering with my everyday life. Even to the point at work. And I brought up to my employer that, hey, I need help. OK. So if I was to say, delete all your accounts today and buy a flip phone by the end of the evening, what panic sets off inside your chest? Funny, because that is something I've considered getting for the last year. But I think what's coming from that is, I just, I think I just would feel like I would get left behind. What would you get left behind? Just, I think a lot of it's community. And just with my job, I do social media as well with what I do. And I just feel like I probably won't be able to keep up. Then, all right, let me, let me break in there on two things. One, if, so I liked it when someone is struggling with any sort of addictive behavior, I like to start from a place that's not always true. But I like to start from a place of what if this addictive behavior works? What if it's actually helping you? And of course, like any good addiction, it will take everything from you. But it's serving a purpose. What is it protecting you from? And often social media has taken the place of real human connections, real friends, people I call and who call you. It's a great Xanax for loneliness. The second thing is, I have a buddy who works in HVAC, or I've got another friend who's a roofer, who's a roofing company. Every day he has a hammer and a drill. But it would be nuts for him to come home and sit at his couch going zzzzzz with his drill or doing that at dinner time. And so, it's okay to have a job where you do a thing unless that job becomes a moral crisis for you. Like I don't even know if I want to be a part of this system anymore. And I wrestle with that because I know the evils of social media and I've got a couple million followers that I get that too. But it's not a strange thing for me. In fact, it's important to me that I don't go home and try to be a counselor to my wife or to my kids. They need a dad. My wife needs a friend and a husband. So both of those things can be true. But if I ask you, what is social media protecting you from? What is constant scrolling when you get home? What is that protecting you from? How would you answer that? I think a lot of it's the loneliness thing. And I guess for more context, I've been working remote in some hybrid positions on or off since 2018. So right now I'm currently full-time remote as well. Which is a cool, free-to-move-about-the-country position and it is devastatingly lonely. Fair? Yeah. Yeah. And so what if we approach this in two ways? One, how can I keep my work tools in my toolkit for use at work? And number two, how can I solve the real challenge here which is, how old are you? 25. I'm 25 and I am profoundly lonely. Yeah. And it's hard for me to say to admit that I am lonely. I know. Yeah. I know. It's a scary, frustrating thing to be. Can I ask you a hard question about loneliness? Yeah. Do you think you're worth being friends with? Not really. Romantically, do you think you're worth somebody just watching you walk into a room and think, oh my, good God, she's beautiful and grabbing you by the face and kissing you? I have that, thankfully. I've been. Okay. Do you catch him side-eyeing you sometimes because he can't believe how lucky he is? Yes. Okay. So, there's a deeper layer then and I've been there too. Tell me about feeling lonely at a table with a guy that loves you. It's hard. Yeah. Because he does a lot to show us like, he'll ask me, how can I best serve you today and how can I love you and he shows up in really incredible ways. But you don't think you're worth being served? No. Where does that story come from? I think in some ways, just going back to growing up, like I have three siblings and I saw how like drugs and alcohol and different lifestyles, how they chose those things and I chose social media and video games and things and that was my way to escape in some ways. But I just always felt like the awkward kid and in some ways I still feel awkward and don't really, I don't, it's just, I just struggle with feeling like I fit in different environments. Okay. So, I'll tell you the simple path forward. It's what I have. Here's the deal. I can't control it. I had a, I was up till 1 a.m. last night. I'm exhausted. I've been hunting a lot, which means I'm getting up really early and staying up really late. I'm traveling all over the country and I've got like a weird thing where I'm toggling. I'm toggling between a leadership conference that I'm speaking multiple times at, a marriage book that I'm working on, live events that I'm doing out, big, so I've got a lot. In last night, I had a spin out and the way I describe a spin out is I fell asleep on the couch like at 8 o'clock. My wife got up and went to bed. My son got up and went to bed. I woke up about 10 and I just melted my soul on social media for 90 minutes. I felt like crap. I slept like crap. I just did. And I woke up this morning knowing I had to pay the piper. I still got to get up. I got to be present with my kids. I got to go to work and it's up to me to set boundaries today and not carry the shame of, I can't believe I didn't just go to bed last night. My body could have used a sleep. I didn't. So here I am today. The only thing I can affect is what I'm going to do today. And so I know those men and women who make the apps are better than me. They're better than me. Social media is a drug and I'm an addict. Fine. So I have a choice to make. So I have it on two separate phones. I have my personal phone and I have social media on a phone that stays in my work back. And you can make that choice today. The second thing is, is what Anna Lemke, who is one of the greatest writers of our generation, she wrote a book called Dopamine Nation that I think everybody should read. But I want you to go check that book out. But take, commit to a 30 day fast. Okay. How do you, I don't want to do a fast. How do you do a fast when like during, during the work day, it's still something that's required. It's thinking of it as a hammer or a drill. Okay. Not as a portal to connection because it's not. Got it. Got it. It's a drill. I build stuff in the mornings or in the afternoons. Great. The other thing is catching yourself when you grab it, when you're bored, when you grab it, when you're lonely, you grab it, when your bosses rant and Raven and you're trying to avoid a zoom meeting with your team. Like you're going to catch yourself doing it and it's not beating yourself up and the worst is like, oh man, I did it again. And I'm going to click it back off. And here's the thing that most people don't get about addiction. The reason AA it's got detractors fine, but the reason people find so much success in it is it's not just telling somebody to not drink, but it's addressing one of the core issues, which is isolation, loneliness, and nobody sees me or knows me. And so if you do this fast, your body is going to be faced with the reality that you're profoundly lonely. And so the way to be successful during this fast, you can white knuckle your way through it. You're tough and strong and you got a great house. You got great support. You can do it, but you're going to grab. It's like not me not eating gummy candies for Lent. Dude, the day of Easter, I go into a diabetic coma. I go bananas, right? Because I'm not dealing with the core issue. So for you, the path is I'm going to put something on the calendar every week where I leave my house. I'm going to put something on the calendar every week for four weeks for 30 days where people come to my house because that's the real problem. And when they walk in the door, I'm going to have a basket and say, everybody's got to put their phone in here. We're all going to play Candyland. What? We're going to play some silly childhood game and we're going to be silly doing it. And I'll provide the tacos. You provide the drinks and the whatever. And we're just going to have a nuts and bolts thing and two people may show up. Five people may show up. Nobody may show up, but I'm going to backfill the core issue and practice being awkward without this drug. I kind of have a silly follow-up question on that. Like, we recently moved cross-country and moved back to his hometown. And I'm still working on building friends and community here. Are you working on building it or are you thinking about it? I've been working on it. I guess I haven't, I guess, sound my people yet. Cool. But what would you suggest? Just the same, just invite anyone? Go first and be weird. Okay. Those are the guiding things. Go first and be weird. You'll never find your people unless you surround yourself with a bunch of people and filter out not your people and your people. Here's the thing in my house. This just happened. I have a neighbor. His name's Craig. He's awesome. He's the best neighbor you could ever have in your life. He texted me a picture of a Halloween, a front yard Halloween party for Halloween night. And I was like, oh, that's cool. You want to hear something awesome? I snapped that picture. I screenshot it and sent it to my wife and said, hey, let's go to this thing in the neighborhood. My wife is the one who sent it. I didn't know I was having a Halloween front yard party at my own house. So we're going to go first and we're going to be weird. And my wife, I guess, printed off flyers and sent the kids around and they put them on people's doors. I can tell you already that makes me feel awkward and exposed and I'm feeling it. I'm going to go do it anyway because I know it's going to be awesome. At least one of my neighbors was super hyped about it. And they hear me say you're worth being friends with. And in those moments when you don't feel lovable, look over at that great husband you have and at least choose to trust him over the story that you're telling yourself. Let him carry some of that weight sometimes because that's what he signed up to do, to death to you part. I don't feel lovable. That guy loves me. He doesn't lie to me. I'm going to trust him. I'm going to trust my body that's sounding the alarms trying to keep me safe. And if I get to a point where I continually loop back to I don't feel lovable, I don't feel worth being friends with, I'm going to go see a counselor. I'm going to go see a professional therapist. I'm going to work through that because I need to change that story because it's not true. And I'm going to get radical and take a 30 day fast from social media period. And I'm going to feel all those uncomfortable feelings I'm going to journal about. I'm going to write them down. I feel like I'm missing something. I'm going to write it down. I feel like I'm missing and I want you to say I feel like I'm missing what? I feel like I'm missing what? And then I'm going to backfill that with actual real people with game night with my husband. With, hey husband buckle up. We're going to be making out a lot because I don't have anything else to do. I'm going to be scrolling the night away. I'm actually going to get sleep. I'm going to put a bedtime on here. I'm going to try to go to bed. I might start exercising. I'm going to fill this gap up of time I've been scrolling away with positive things. And by the way, if you, anyone else feeling shame, especially 25 year olds, 35 year olds, I want you to know this. The adults in your life when you were children failed you. They failed you. They gave you drugs in middle school. They gave you drugs in high school. They gave you drugs in college. And they called them educational technology. They called them learning devices. They called them mobile learning initiatives. They called them connectivity. They gave you drugs and now you're 25 and realized I was high most of my childhood and I missed out on how to make friends. Okay, cool. Now it's time to get sober. You can't do anything about what they did, but you can choose to not keep using this drug, which is called social media. And I'm going to start doing real things with real people in the real world. It's your move, sister. Thank you for calling. I'm proud of you. At the end of this 30 day fast, I would love for you to call me back and let me know how it went, the good, the bad and the ugly. That'd be a great follow up call, Nicole. We come back, a woman wonders how to handle a family relationship when that family member won't forgive her for having an affair. All right, we are right in the heart of hunting season and we're in the heart of the holiday grilling and cooking season. And I'm beyond thrilled to announce that Montana Knife Company has joined the Dr. John Deloni show team. Everyone who listens to this show knows that my son and I are big hunters and fishermen and that my wife is one of the best cooks on the planet. And for years, I've used one company for every knife need that I have, Montana Knife Company. I've bought them for years with my own money. I love them and I'm so glad that they're now on our show. Montana Knife Company knives are designed, tested and built by hunters and real cooks. My family and I use these knives everywhere from the deepest parts of the backwoods to our very own kitchen. Every Montana Knife Company knife comes with a multi-generational guarantee. And if it ever needs sharpening, you just send it back to them and they'll sharpen it for free and send it right back to you. Montana Knife Company knives make incredible holiday gifts and they always sell out before Christmas. So get yours right now before they're gone. They're proudly made in the USA and I'm telling you, you will not be disappointed. Go to MontanaKnifeCompany.com to see what's available right now. That's MontanaKnifeCompany.com. All right, Atlanta, Georgia. Let's talk to Jennifer. What's up, Jennifer? Hi, Dr. John. How's it going? Yes, Dandy. What's up? I don't ever say the word Dandy. I don't even know why I said that. That was dumb. I'm doing great. How are you? Good. Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate it. You got it. What's up? So I'm basically calling because I need some advice on how to handle a family relationship with my brother-in-law's wife. I had an affair a couple of years ago and my husband and I have reconciled. We've stayed together and I've made amends with most of the family and we're actually on really great terms. She's the only one who, there's still a strain. Let it go. Let it go. Oh, it's so hard because she acts like I don't exist and she ignores me. Here's the thing. The only person, the only, and I sound like I'm making it simple. It's hard, but it's simple. The only person you can control is you. That's it. And so choose to be a person who treats everybody with dignity and respect regardless of if they give it back or not. Right. And if she doesn't want, if she wants to be a child and take her ball and go home, if she wants to, every family, every family get together, she wants to drag an elephant and sit it right in the middle of the living room. That's fine. I'm still going to ask you, hey, do you want anything to drink when I'm going to the kitchen? No. Okay. That's, I'm, because all I can, all I can, only thing I can do is just be the best, the best sister in the world I can be. I can't make you like me. I can't make you tell the truth about me. I can't make you do anything. Yeah. I guess the practicality of it is the part that I'm struggling with because it definitely triggers my past like rejection issues and like my people pleasing issues. Why does she get a vote? I guess cause we, the family gets together often. I know, but she has looked at you and said, I do not want a relationship with you. I'm going to use a past indiscretion on your part to every day make myself feel better. Like, I don't know. Like if there's a person like that in the world, that's great. Knock your lights out. You don't want to be friends with me. I'm not, I'm not going to spend energy. Right. I guess where I struggle is when we are in the same household and usually it's for multiple days cause it's at big events. Like I struggle personally with either completely ignoring them because I feel awkward or maybe trying too hard. So I don't know how to like practically interact with her when we're in the same room. All right. Can I be, can I ask hard, hard questions? Yes. Take me back to your affair cause I think there's a trend line here. Take me back to it. What happened? So, I have a history of stepping out sexually to meet my like deep needs and trauma. There was a lot of unprocessed things I didn't deal with and I brought it into the marriage. And I fully take responsibility, but I know that there were things in the marriage that triggered those things and I didn't deal with it in a healthy way. So I decided to have the affair. But the biggest thing was just a deep lack of like emotional connection with my husband. And so I was seeking that elsewhere. Define for me emotional connection. It's that deep feeling of like being known and being disconnected like on an intimate level. He unfortunately, he's a great guy like he really is, but he struggles with deep being deep and being past surface level just because of his own trauma. And as a fellow trauma survivor, we are terrible with allowing ourselves to be seen and known. Cause we did once and it got us hurt. Fair. Yeah. Okay. And so almost always, that's not true. I overstated that often. There's a sense of, I need somebody out there to make me feel okay inside of here. Yes, I can relate to that. I need somebody to make me feel alive. I need somebody to get my heart rate up. I need somebody to, to pretend for nine minutes that you see me and know me. Okay. So I'm going to assume that you've worked on that kind of stuff. You've worked on. Yeah, I did a program. I've been going to a therapist. So it's been a lot of hard, hard work. Yeah. And so now I want to take that similar trend line and bring it into your in-laws house over Thanksgiving. Strangely, you're walking into that door trying to make all these people make you feel okay on the inside of your skin. And my suggestion to you is that's not their job. Hmm. It's you asking not the need question because I think that can be overdramatized sometimes. I think you asking, what do I want? And often the deeper question here is I don't want to be around those people either. And that leads to a harder conversation with your husband, which is, is there a possibility we could do Thanksgiving differently this year? Hmm. I want to for one year at least have a Thanksgiving or a Christmas or I cannot wait to walk in the front door wherever it is we're going. Not I want to walk in hoping that I can sing and dance that everybody will like me. Oh gosh, I don't think that person just cut their eyes. Oh gosh, they're not gonna feel weird. Everybody's thinking about the affair, the affair, the affair. They're not. They're thinking about the mashed potatoes and whatever. But there's one person that doesn't like you and decides to act like a four year old about it and ignores you. Right? You see what I'm saying? Hmm. It's this outsourcing of responsibility to somebody else make me feel a little bit more alive and okay and at peace in my own skin. So what is your suggestion for continually growing in like the worst aspects of it? You write that woman who was about to go for the very first affair, write her a letter. As she was getting into the car to go meet with somebody and her husband was at home. And that woman whose heart was racing a hundred miles an hour and kind of didn't black out but it was pretty intentional. But like, I'm gonna go do this thing. Like who made that choice? Write her a letter and tell her that you still love her. And tell her I know how much you're hurting. And if I could do anything I'd go back and hug you and say, don't do this. This is gonna blow up a good man's life. This is gonna blow up my life. And this isn't the path. This isn't the solution to the hurt we have or to the emptiness that we feel. Let her go. Cause you're dragging her around everywhere saying, see, look what you did. See, look what you did. That woman over there in the other corner of the room, my brother-in-law's wife. See what you did? You're ruined Christmas three years later, four years later, five years later. No, that's definitely good. I mean, cause it's the, I think that's the hardest part is the shame, you know? But, but you get in, you've heard me say this, but you get the difference between guilt and shame, right? Yeah. Guilt as I screwed up. I did. I cheated on a good man. Shame is I'm a cheater. I'm not worth even coming over to this Christmas party. I'm the worst person here. And this woman at every turn confirms the story you've made up about yourself, about how unlovable you are. Yeah, that sounds great. The path back from shame is a new story, which is I'm a person of fidelity. I'm a person who never cheats on my husband, which means I got to come up with a whole bunch of strategies on when I start feeling like I want to step out, when I start feeling bored in my own skin, or I start feeling less than that. We have a path we meet every week to talk about our calendar and our budget and our sex life for the week. We go on long walks on Saturday mornings together. We don't have to look at you on the eye, but we're eyeball to eyeball. Whatever the things are, that we have a thing that's already in motion. It's a way of being for us where we talk about hard things. That you don't wait until that you shake up that two liter bottle until it just is so full of disrupted air that the top shoots off. That you have the ability to say, I need some adventure in our sex life this week. Instead of saying, I need you to go deeper with me in conversation to say, I'm going to send them to you. The questions for humans intimacy, deck cards, and the questions for humans couples cards. I'm going to send them to you for free. I want to ask you seven questions. I want to sit in the bathtub with a hot bath and we're going to have candles in there and you just sit on the floor next to me. We're going to go back and forth to these questions, which might be one of the most strangely intimate nights you've had in ages. Yeah, it sounds nice though. I know. You hear what I'm saying? But it's like you have the responsibility to say out loud, here's what I want. And then here's an option. And then if he looks at you and says, I don't want to answer questions. I don't want to do that. I want to sit in the bathroom and talk about these and get to know you better. I'd rather just watch a football game with them. You all need to adjust that issue. Yeah. Right? Yeah. No, that makes sense. That sounds good. I want to definitely try that. The letter I want you to write, I want you to write that letter to her. And let her go. Don't let her off the hook. She messed up, but I want to contextualize it. I was a hurting young woman who constantly sought to feel less pain by going and getting her heart rate up and doing something wild. Except this time is with my husband and I blew up our life. The second letter I want you to write is to five years from now you. And it says, dear Jennifer, we are a person who. Always tells the truth. We're a person who has messed up in the past. We violated our own values in the past and we will never do that again, which means we're a person who always puts our challenges on the table and has the courage to say, here's what I want this week. Jennifer is the kind of person who loves everybody and treats everybody with respect, even when there's annoying family members that snub their nose at me. It's deciding whom I'm going to be and then just backfilling that with the actions that will get you to that place. Otherwise you walk into every room asking yourself, am I lovable? Because you don't believe you are. And then your mind goes looking for what it wants. It's like it goes looking for what you think to be true. And every glance, every time somebody walks out of the room, every time somebody covers up their wine glass, it's confirmation of the story you've already told yourself, which is I'm not worth being in this room. I'm unlovable. And that story is not true. Yeah, that's probably the hardest inner dialogue that I've battled with. And that's just from my upbringing. I'm constantly feeling I'm loved and rejected. And then some guy's going to give you the illusion of love for five, 10, 15, 20 minutes. Love can be boring. Love can be boring. And love is a choice made over and over and over again. And sometimes it's got a cool fireworks show to it, but most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time it's yard work. Most of the time it's emptying the dishwasher. Most of the time it's washing little whiskers out of the sink. Love is a bunch of little choices made over and over and over. It's saying I'm sorry. It's saying I don't know how we got sideways, but here's a cup of coffee I just made for you. It's just picking up the underwear and put it in the basket and going about your day and not telling yourself a story that he's doing that because he doesn't care about you and he doesn't love you. I'm just going to pick up the underwear and get on about my day. But those things take practice. They're uncomfortable. They're boring. They're annoying. It's just water in the roots and water in the roots. And one day you realize we have a gigantic sturdy tree. And that's a pretty amazing thing. Thanks for calling sister. Go to Christmas with your head held high because you're worth being in that room. We'll be right back. All right. I got three dogs at my house and they were outside dogs and now they're inside dogs and I love them, but it's a lot of stress. And I know and you know how stressful it can be during the holidays when you are traveling and you've got pets either at home or shoved into some pet carrier with you. And this is going to happen to you. You're going to be on the road this holiday season away from your regular vet and you're going to need pet care right away. Dutch has your back. Dutch is the leading telehealth service for pets and it gives you 24 seven access to licensed vets. Dutch is amazing. They can treat over 150 common pet conditions and you can get expert care in minutes. Just a 10 minute call from wherever you are and you've got a treatment plan ready to go. A Dutch membership covers up to five pets plus unlimited visits and unlimited follow ups and prescriptions shipped for free. With my code, it's less than seven bucks a month. That pays for itself fast because you spend that much just to see a vet in an office one time. The average pet owner using Dutch saves over 800 bucks a year. Go to Dutch.com slash DELONI and use code DELONI to get 50 bucks off a year of vet care. That's Dutch. D-U-T-C-H. Dutch.com slash DELONI and use code DELONI. All right, Kelly, something cool happened. What is it? Yes. So earlier this year, we had a guy named Phil that called in and was talking about his wife was pregnant and she had a son from a previous marriage that he adored. And he was nervous that he was going to favor his biological child over his stepson. So he writes in, I called earlier this year for advice on how to make sure I didn't love my stepson any less after having a biological child. Just wanted to give an update. My wife gave birth to a healthy baby girl back in August and we are all over the moon. I made a point to take my son to breakfast at least once a month before work and school and had a couple of dudes weekends to get some one-on-one time. Your advice on using your baby and your sister rather than just saying the baby seemed to work and it seemed to give him a sense of upcoming responsibility. Now that she has arrived, my son has been very helpful, attentive and loving to his new sister. Well, things are sticky, stinky and loud in the house right now. We still have our breakfast lunch dates. Thanks for the advice and the wisdom. That's fantastic. Hey, Ben, that's the name of our new band, Sticky, Stinky and Loud. Ship it. That's a great band name. That is by far the most accurate description of y'all's band I've ever heard. So it works. Dude, that's so fantastic. I love these follow-up stories. If you've ever been on the show before and you're muddling through and figuring out the next right move and you want to write in, I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got that, that'd be great, but I appreciate him writing in. That's super cool. I was, two cool things happened this morning. I went to breakfast with my wife. I'm about to be on the road for a while, so we went and there was a dad having a very awkward breakfast with his son. And his son was little and they were, it was awkward in that, like, I could tell they didn't really know what to say to each other. And I stopped by to say, dude, this is so cool. Like, this looks awesome. And that was cool. And then the second one is, as I was leaving, another grown man said, hey, I never, I'm in Nashville. There's always people coming out of restaurants and stuff. I never stop them, but I needed to stop you and tell you, this is my friend. This is an old frat brother of mine. And these are guys that are probably 10 years older than me. This is an old frat brother of mine. And you keep telling us that we got to get together and have friends. And so we're catching up. And he said, we've got through all the lies and then we got through all the old stories and now we're talking about stuff that matters. And it was just a cool, like, very, very cool, just in a random breakfast restaurant here in town. So that's all those stories make me make all this show worth it. It makes every day of my life just staring at Kelly and her Dallas cowboy t-shirt. It makes it all worth it. Yes, all of it. Stinky. What was it? Stinky, sticky and loud. That might be the name of our life. We could win that way with that name. We could never win. But that might be the name of our live album. Sticky, stinky and loud. I like it. Dude, I'm in. Love you guys. Bye.